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Dear Ms. Quinn,

I can't find your email address, so -- I hope you don't mind -- I'll post this to the list.

I heard you this past Tuesday, Nov. 28, on C-Span (or maybe NPR) and you said everything was debatable on your On Faith forum, and gave as an example, "Is Christ really God?". When you ask that question, you've already assumed as true half of what Christianity needs to prove. Two more basic questions are: "Was Jesus really a christ?" and "Was Jesus *the* christ referred to in Messianic prophecies?".

It's up to you, if it matters to you, to find your answer to those two questions, but since I'm here, I'll give you some of mine: "Christ" was not his name. It's the Anglicization of the Greek translation of moshiach, which means "anointed". It was a title that belonged to any anointed king of Israel, and iirc to Cyrus the king of Persia, and eventually attributed to Jesus by those who thought he deserved it. It means "anointed", anointed with oil so as to become king. I haven't read much of the Christian Bible, but I have heard that someone in it is supposed to have poured oil over Jesus's head. That doesn't make him a king. Not unless the person doing it had the authority to anoint a new king. And he didn't. My mother used to pour oil over me, including my head, when I was a newborn baby, to clean me without giving me a chill, since I was born in January. That didn't make me a king, and nothing any of Jesus's disciples or friends did made him a king of Israel. Despite the Christmas song that refers to him as king of Israel.

*THE* moshiach is a particular king of Israel, whom all will recognize, and who will bring peace to the world, end war, end crime, and do other good things. He will be a regular human being, and he won't have the power to forgive our sins. God handles that. Each one of us has to make atonement and do repentance ourselves.

You don't need to be a Christian, but I'm glad you're not an atheist anymore.

http://www.reverendatheistar.com/a_thanks_worth_giving.htm

A Thanks Worth Giving

All across America people are getting ready to prepare a great feast to celebrate what has become a very big and important holiday. It's important for many reasons. The first and most important, is that it makes family get together and think about all the good things in their life. It forces them to stop worrying and think positive. This can bring nothing but good!

It is also important to the economy. Our economy revolves around holidays. Anyone who's been to the grocery store at Thanksgiving can attest to this! It is a madhouse right up to and now including the day! People, in typical human fashion, tend to wait till the last minute to get their shopping done. This makes for the busiest day of the year!

Now when all is said and done and the meals have been made, the table is set and everyone is sitting in their chair, a curious thing happens. The theists, before eating, thank their imaginary friend in the clouds for all that is set before them! They go on and on about how she/he/it/them have provided all this wonderful food and without this deity none of this would have been possible. Say what?!

Talk about misdirected appreciation! Instead of thanking who is really deserving, the invisible sky daddy gets all the credit! I've sat through many a prayer in my former xian days and not once did I hear the true "beings" get thanked. Not once!

This was all completely normal at the time, though. It was the way it was supposed to be. If my parents did it and their friends and my friends did and well, if in my little world I thought that everyone did it -- how could it be wrong? This reasoning is called the argument from popularity. It is also called, in much less flattering terms, the herd mentality.

The individual in the group wants to be like the rest. He wants to be liked and accepted by his peers. He wants to fit in. In this way superstition has been passed on.

No matter how silly they may appear to an outsider, customs and beliefs are held to a great degree just because they are popular. They know they if they try to go against the grain and reject these traditions then they will face a tough road ahead. And so the misdirected appreciation has gone on.

Not with me. For me it ended years ago when I realized that all gods and goddesses are just products of man's imagination. They have never been proven and can be and have been disproven by many a great freethinker in America. To them I direct my first thanks. Without them I might still be thanking an invisible man in the clouds -- and this article never would have been written!

So, who else should we be thanking? Well, the list is nearly endless! We should thank our armed forces for keeping this nation safe. Without their tireless efforts we would constantly be in danger of attack. Our enemies wouldn't have to sneak in terrorists to use our own resources against us. Without our defenses anyone could attack us at any time. Be it with missiles, or fighter jets or invading armies, we would be at the mercy of our attackers.

We should thank all the farmers who grew the fruits and vegetables that grace our plates. Without them we wouldn't have sweet potatoes. Without those we would never have sweet potato pie or candied yams. Without them we wouldn't have cranberries or cranberry sauce. Without them the apples would never have grown in enough abundance to provide us with so many delicious apple pies. Without the constant tilling of the earth and planting of the seed none of what we take for granted would be available.

We should thank all the farmers who raised the turkeys that become the centerpiece of our feasts. Without them we would have to raise our own birds, feeding them and taking care of them, till they were full grown at which point it would be up to us to kill them. After that we would have to pluck them and gut them. And then, after all that was done, then you could start cooking!

We should thank the multitudes of companies who now make our food for us. They make our pies. They make our biscuits. They cut up or green beans and shuck our corn. They slice our carrots and peel our potatoes. Almost anything nowadays can be bought frozen. For that we should definitely be thankful...to the companies and the people who make up them, that is.

For anyone drinking wine with their holiday meal, they should be thankful to the men and women of the vineyards. They tilled the ground and seeded it. They painstakingly made sure the plants thrived and produced the finest grapes. They crushed the grapes and collected the juice, putting it through the various and time-consuming methods that eventually produce wine.

We should be thankful that our employers hired us. Without them we wouldn't have the money to buy all these wonderful things to eat on this joyous day. We wouldn't have the money to have the phone to talk to our relatives who couldn't make it. We never would have had the money to buy the TV that we so happily watch. We would have nothing but what was given to us.

We should be thankful to all our friends who have stood by us in good times and in bad. Without them our paths would have been much harder. Without them our lives would not have been filled with so much laughter and joy. We would not have seen life through there eyes and would have never grown because of it.

We should be thankful to our families who have been there as far back as we can remember. Who we have many cherished memories with. Who sheltered us and told us everything would be all right. Who healed our wounds and encouraged us when we were down. And most recently, cooked or helped cook the meal we are about to enjoy!

And to those of you are with a special someone, you should be thankful that they have chosen you over all the rest, to be with. You be thankful that they love you despite your bad habits and a few less than desirable personality traits. You should be thankful to them knowing that there are many, many lonely people out there who dream of having what you have everyday.

And while this list is far from complete and there are still many of people that could be thanked, I will end with just one more very important thank you. I thank my parents for being brave enough to have children and tough it out through all the hardships we put upon them through growing up. I thank them from the bottom of my heart for being there for my sister and I when we needed them.

All this without thanking an imaginary friend. And that's the way it should be. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Sounds like the inspiration of more than a glass wine, Dr. Elliot, by what you write...blood of Christ to you.

I am simply too dense or densely too simple to understand what Dr. Elliott has written, here. I believe that he is saying that religion is not subject to "public proof and . . . public agreement." This, as I read it, condemns to failure the enterprise which Quinn and Meacham have commenced.

I too have taught at the University level--nearly forty years, in fact. I was at my worst whenever I believed that I possessed a truth that could not be sustained by public proof and agreement. I admit that it was tempting, at times, to say, "It is so because the Book and I say that it is so." I also admit that those were the times when preparation for class seemed inexpedient.

Perhaps, it is the failure to encourage public scrutiny of basic tenents that has caused "religion, the root of cultures and civilizations" to be the efficient cause, also, of egregious death and devistation.

Dr. Elliott,

Forgive me for being obtuse here but what are you really saying?

"...courage to face the current impoverishing dogma--a prejudice infesting public education--that the important questions are those yielding to public proof and therefore public agreement. That eliminates religion, the root of cultures and civilizations."

Are you saying that Judeo-Christian thought or doctrine should be taught early like in K-12? If so, I completely disagree (well, maybe as an elective in High School would be OK). Even the science taught at an early age will not include those 'important questions' that seem to stick in the craw of parents who are not particularly religious, when taught from the perspective of Christianity. My young children were taught that the pilgrims were Christian. That is a historical fact. But please keep the metaphysical at the college level. We all benefit from college age adults who study comparative religion, philosophy, and science and continue on in their lives pursuing 'the truth' critically and rationally.

A young mind should only be taught how to learn, how to think critically, do math, understand science, appreciate history and how to write a paper. Religion, especially religious dogma should stay out of our K-12. And yes, I think a responsible parent should keep their child away from the unquestioning methods the Church uses to steep impressionable minds until they have the proper foundation for putting religion into perspective. There should only be children of Christian parents, not Christian Children, likewise for children of Muslim parents, if we are ever to break the cycle of belief that drives inherently incompatible religions into destruction mode.

You are to be congratulated on futhering blog-conversation on a topic so important as to be hopeless of public resolution, namely, a comprehensive focus of gratitude. It's a reversable proposition: a free public such as ours will never agree on important questions, and questions we can all agree on are not important. In your string of comments on Quinn's grace-at-meals piece, you exhibit the courage to face the current impoverishing dogma--a prejudice infesting public education--that the important questions are those yielding to public proof and therefore public agreement. That elimiates religion, the root of cultures and civilizations. And it deifies reason, the process within the dogma, with both silly and sad effects (such as "the noble savage," "the revolution of the proletariat," and "the final solution").
Humanity is now, thanks to technology, able to do more good and harm, and faster, than ever before. So it's more urgent than ever before that we face and confess--modestly and reverently--the limitations as well as the possibilities of our species. In this post, I'm pointing to the hope that humankind can come humbly to accept--soon enough to avoid suicide--the hopelessness of coming to general agreement on the most important questions.
(As an evangelical Christian, I taught the world's religions in the University of Hawaii.)

This is a very interesting forum. It would be good if it had a wider audience in EVERY newspaper in the US

Davin,

I, too, have taken a one-sided view on the Middle East. It is easy to do so when one has Israeli friends and has played tourist or gone on a business trip in such a beautiful country. One can easily be drawn into the immediacy of it all from the intense political discussions that form the basis for friendship. I am goyim but as pro-Israel as my Israeli friends.

That said, I recently read an article by John J Mearsheimer (U. of Chicago) and Stephen M. Walt (JFK Sch of Gov't - Harvard) entitled, The Israeli Lobby and US Foreign Policy, that has given me reason to seriously rethink that whole political equation. From what I have heard, the two were castigated by the very lobby org they write about and called anti-Semitic.

A secular Jewish state where people can believe they will be free from the type of persecution their ancestors experienced in centuries prior seems rational. Keeping people in misery does not.

On my tour, I went through some incredibly wealthy Arab villages in Israel, areas that were not wanting for material goods, let alone basic needs. With all of the oil money in the Muslim world it makes me wonder who really is witholding what from whom (and for what agenda).

Sorry to have completely ignored the subject of the original Sally Quinn article (Saying Grace and being thankful), but I felt reacting to Mors Le Fey was needed however defensive it sounded.

Parker,

I must have made the wrong impression, by no means do I defend Islam in it's absurdity, but I cannot see Israel nor the US on higher moral ground, both sides have committed atrocities.

The history of the Israel/Palestine conflict is long and complex, neither side is innocent, peace seems to be untenable, it's irrational.
Ordinary Palestinians are deprived of basic human needs this has to stop somehow, the US and indeed Britain are not helping enough.

My one-sided view is due to the imbalance of naked power on show, the US and Israel are real heavyweights.

Davin,

Of course it is laughable. It as laughable as your attempt to blame Israel and US Policy for every reaction of Palestinian Muslims against the Israeli government.

As I said, it is more complicated than that. Palestinian zealots do use human sheilds. They walk into cafes in Tel Aviv and blow themselves up killing tourists and Israeli's alike. Israeli military has horribly messed up their policy to only target combatants, but it is still their stated policy and there have been many instances where they have followed it and not killed local terrorists who have used their women and children as sheilds. You can say what you want in rely but here is the real point of my reaction:

The incompatibility of each of the three major religions in terms of what each believes and the history of violence that religious beliefs have spawned for centuries is why people are suffering and dying in the Middle East. It is why more than 3000 people died on 9/11. That the Christian Millenialists, Jewish Messianists, Muslim 'final hour' believers would like to hasten the end of the world as we know it is why we need more reason and less religion.

Sorry, you'll have to hear from someone else if you are looking for a defense of the 'reason' we are in Iraq but blaming Israel and the US and implying the innocence of the Palestinian Muslims and Islam is the height of absurdity and that one-sided view holds no hope for the future.

Thanks for sharing such a personal (and beautiful) account of your thanksgiving Ms. Quinn. I am going to have to check out your book when it comes out in print. If it is similar to your writing in this article, it will definately be worth buying.

Thank you Sally Quinn for your honesty. Sadly, when discussing religious matters in these troubled times, honesty seems in short supply.

I would like to share some rather personal things in my life in return.

I grew up in a small mid-western city in America. It was what everybody refered to as a steel town. The manufacture of steel was the town's main livelihood. My father worked there as a crane operator. Heck, everybody's father worked there it seemed.

Steel production is a very dangerous and dirty process. My father had to breathe noxious chemicals on a regular basis. He endured a change of shift (work hrs.) every week for thirty years. He did this out of love for his family. He came from a broken home and had a really rough childhood. He was determined to do better for his children. And he did.

I grew up in the turmoil filled 1960s. I was rebellious, as many young men can be. I got into the whole scene, drugs and protest and rebellion. My father and I had an uneasy relationship during this time. I finally got arrested for drug possession one December day. I had to ask my Dad if he would take my girlfriend home, because I was going straight to jail with the help of two deputy sherriffs that knocked on my door while my girlfriend and I were watching television. This filled me with shame and horror just at the thought.

I was in jail only eight days, but to me it was an eternity. My father, and wisely so, did not bail me out right away. He wanted me to get a taste of the real world, and frankly, I needed one. The end result was a deal made by my father, the US Marine Corps recruiter and the judge. I swore to serve in the Marines instead of going to trial and facing a possible prison sentence of up to five years. This was DURING the Vietnam war. I was a rebellious hippie now on his way to boot camp at Paris Island, SC. My dad told me I'd never make it. Well, I thought, I'll show him.

Well, that is exactly why he said that to me. Knowing how rebellious I was, he knew if he said that, that I would do everything in my power to prove him wrong. And I did. I successfully completed my training and went on to regular duty. My Mother and my Father and older brother came to my graduation at Paris Island. My Dad was so proud, the buttons almost popped off of his shirt.

For years, I harbored a not so hidden resentment. It was not until sometime after that I finally realized he did it for my own good, out of a boundless love for his family. My Dad was not a religious man, by any stretch of the word, but he loved dearly, and looked forward to Thanksgiving and Christmas. I think Christmas morning was as much fun for him as it was for us children. He was spiritual, not religious. He loved his wife and his family and worked for thirty years at a job he hated. All of this so his children would have a better life than he did.

I was very anti-religion for years and years of my life. I went through a painfull divorce and lost custody of my daughter. It took me years to finally understand that my ex-wife made the right decision.

I spiralled out of control on booze and drugs. In my mid thirties I realized I had to stop before it killed me and broke the hearts of my family.

This is really what brought me to my search for spirituality. I am still not a religious man, but I am very spiritual. While religion and spirituality are not mutually exclusive, one is not always the other.

This led me to Buddhism mainly, because one of the pillars of Buddhism is the end of suffering here and now.

My daughter hadn't wanted to know me for most of her childhood, then one day I got a letter. This changed everything, but the change was gradual, for us both. One day on my birthday she wanted to buy a book for me. She knew I had an interest in Eastern Philosophy. She bought me a copy of Lao Tsu's Tao te Ching. She didn't know what Tao Te Ching was, but she knew that I would appreciate it.

This changed my life, literally. It is so beautifully written and so simplistic that I was hooked. And still am. I don't recommed it for everybody, but I sure wish everybody would give it a glance. It is wisdom and spirituality without dogma and ritual. It is truly one of the wonders of the world.

Thanks for lending an ear.

To Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham:

I have tried in vain to reach you by email so I am resorting to a comment on both your panellist contributions. I think the whole notion of having a forum discussing the issue of faith in a frank and searching manner is a good one and many – though not all – of the panellists have risen to the occasion and many of the comments have been excellent.

As I see it an enormous amount of commentary has already been generated and making any kind of sense out of it is a non-trivial exercise. Nevertheless it would be shame if the whole exercise simply sank away in to the sand. So I was wondering if the two of you were planning some sort of follow up exercise.

For my part, the one thing which stands out like a sore thumb is the incompatibility between the worlds monotheistic religions -- given their mutually exclusive claims. Atheists and agnostics take this as read but believers, in one or other of the monotheistic faiths, seem to be able – in some strange way -- to avoid facing up to this.

Anyway, I am sure that I am not alone in hoping the two of you will give the rest of us some idea as to what you have in mind once the forum closes down. Maybe if you did this some of the rather crude comments – of which there are fortunately not too many – might be less frequent. Try as I might I have been unable to find – on the website – any indication of how the threads will be pulled together.

Dear Ms Quinn,

That was truly beautiful. I, to, have one similar to yours, so I think I know where your coming from.

It was Christmas of 1974. I was 17. My mother had previously been diagnosed with cancer. She was not doing well. It was the last Christmas the family would spend together but the first Christmas that my whole family was together for a very long time. And the first time on Christmas that there were no arguments or bad feelings.

My mothers doctors informed us she did not have much time left. That Christmas my father came to stay with all of us. My mother, 2 sisters and myself. My parents had been seperated for about 10 years. When it came to my mothers illness my father was a stand up man. He came back to help out financially as well as emotionally for all of us. My mother never stopped loving my father, so this, for her was even more of a blessing on her last Christmas and the last time the family was ever again together as a whole. All resentments set aside. I too have a picture of the family at the table quite similar to yours.

16 was the age I first proclaimed to be an atheist. The family was not particularly religious but there was always a touch of Christianity lingering.

What I did learn that Christmas of 1974, was that if there is a common goal and respect for that goal all can set aside their differences for at least a moment in time. Love and understanding can prevail if each can respect the reason why their differences must be kept silent for that period of time.

I still to this day proclaim to be atheist, but of course, since, have been included in weddings,funerals and the like where God had the presence do to the people involved. I have closed my eyes and bowed my head to pay respect to the friends and family that have included me in those events, not to the God that they have also invited.

For me it is out of respect for those that I love. Nothing more, nothing less.

If only the prophets and the charismatic preachers would have begun their appeals with, "I have this interesting theory" instead of "I know the truth." Then we could have spent the last two thousand years or so engaged in enligtening conversation instead of wars, pogroms, inquisitions and blood baths. Spirituality might have evolved into a FAITH that all could share in peace.

You know what?

i'm fed up of people telling me that i've burned people at stakes, done anything remotely anti-gay or any other hate thing that the vast majority of Catholics have never done. i don't blame you for your brother's sins, please don't blame me for mine.

i think Edward might be referring to the other threads on this server - as am i. . . :-)

but more to the point, i felt very sad for Ms. Quinn because it reminded me of all the things that I've done - or all of us have done - and regretted later. I once had a friend who sang in a jazz trio and their band managed to get a gig at a reputed festival. when i went to buy a ticket to go see her, i was so annoyed that they wouldn't waive the service charge even though i had driven directly there to buy it, that i didn't buy a ticket. the service charge was 5 bucks and the ticket was 15. it was highway robbery.

when i told the story to my friend - well shall i say 'ex-friend' - she never spoke to me again. she knew very well i could afford the 5 bucks and i knew very well i could afford the 5 bucks. but who the frick did they think they were charging 33% of the price of the ticket as service fee???

if i could go back in time i would pay 1,000 dollars service fee for that ticket.

just reminded me of that story and made me feel sad. you can bet that i'm now much more careful about my principles... it took me a long time before i learned that they are not as important as friends...

Edward Gasser wrote:

>> It is too bad that in this season of Thanksgiving so many of the comments are so hate-filled.

Cite specific examples, please...

Edward:

If you could direct us all to the comments that you feel are hate-filled, it might be easier to address your concerns. Thanks!

Dear Ms. Quinn:

Thank you for your heartfelt story. It is too bad that in this season of Thanksgiving so many of the comments are so hate-filled.

It is they who should be ashamed.

Everyone, please. Instead of this mindless, hateful attack on each other, pick up a book and read history, religion, philosophy, sociology et al. The truly enlightened mind does not recognize hatred and only endorses understanding. Read what the founding fathers said about religion and why they said it. Don't take the work of spinners and partisans. Plato was right when he said that there is only one sin, ignorance. It is in the name of ignorance that we preach intolerance, hatred, partisanship and misunderstanding. Be thankful in whatever way you please, but remember to be thankful and not take our American existance for granted. We should all stop shouting and start reading.

"Palestinians use human shields and kill ordinary citizens in the name of Allah, with a doctrine of martyrdom/bringing infidels to justice along with an amazingly unimaginative description of paradise, while Israelis do their utmost to kill only Islamic terrorists in the name of self defense"

Dear Parker,

I not sure critising Mr Le Fey on the accuracy of his post when yours is so far off beam it's frightening, maybe it's because of the biased reporting in the US regarding the Middle East that makes your assertion laughable in the face the atrocities occuring in Palestine, not to mention the cluster bombing of Lebanon. If the Israelis are only aiming at 'terrorists' how come so many women and babies are dying from their weapons and disease from the destruction of their infrastructure?

Iraq is in the throes of Civil War, Lebanon on the verge, all attributable to US foreign policy. As for lack of reason, what was the reason for invading Iraq again?

Christians have nice traditions

Sure. Burning women at the stake, hating gay people and doing all in their power to deny them equal rights, trying to deny Americans access to all forms of birth control, priests using altar boys as their own personal sex toys. Nice traditions you got there.

Sally, you haven't had anything interesting to say about anything ever. Go home.

Who can find offense in what you have written? The wisdom of the atheist is demonstrated in seeing the beauty found in various religious traditions even as there is beauty in a painting. One needn't believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was a prophet to enjoy his art, nor should one necessarily subscribe to all his beliefs merely because that one appreciates his work.

The Bible contains nice poetry. Christians have nice traditions. This is precisely because the Bible is a book of human tales and poems, and Christians are humans who follow and imitate other humans (as we humans are so wont to do). There is no divinity in saying grace, but this only adds to its value.

Here is something you should blog about. One wonders how much this goes on in our taxpayer-funded public school classrooms, and it's high time it stops:

Student tapes teacher proselytizing in class
Accept Jesus or 'you belong in hell,' he said
Newark Star-Ledger
Nov. 15, 2006

...

Junior Matthew LaClair, 16, said history teacher David Paszkiewicz, who is also a Baptist preacher in town, spent the first week of class lecturing students more about heaven and hell than the colonies and the Constitution.

LaClair said Paszkiewicz told students that if they didn’t accept Jesus, “you belong in hell.” He also dismissed as unscientific the theories of evolution and the “Big Bang.”

LaClair, who described his own religious views as "non-Christian," said he wanted to complain about Paszkiewicz to school administrators, but feared his teacher would deny the charges and that no one would take a student's word against a teacher's.

So, he said, he started taping Paszkiewicz.

...

On Sept. 14 -- the fourth day of class -- Paszkiewicz is on tape saying, "He (God) did everything in his power to make sure that you could go to heaven, so much so that he took your sin on his own body, suffered your pains for you and he's saying, 'Please accept me, believe me.'"

He adds, according to the tapes: "If you reject that, you belong in hell. The outcome is your prerogative. But the way I see it, God himself sent his only son to die for David Paszkiewicz on that cross ... And if you reject that, then it really is to hell with you."

Paszkiewicz didn't limit his religious observations to personal salvation, according to the tapes.

Paszkiewicz shot down the theories of evolution and the "Big Bang" in favor of creationism. He also told his class that dinosaurs were on Noah's ark, LaClair said.

On Oct. 10 -- a month after he first requested a meeting with the principal -- LaClair met with Paszkiewicz, Somma and the head of the social studies department.

At first, Paszkiewicz denied he mixed in religion with his history lesson, and the adults in the room appeared to be buying it, LaClair said. But then he reached into his backpack and produced the CDs.

This shameful action of a proselytizing teacher described in this story is more than likely not an isolated incident. Thinking, caring Americans have had enough of this sort of beliefism injected into the classroom.

Ms Quinn, I knew you were no lightweight.

Mr. Le Fey, I am sure Sally is better armed than I in terms of appropriate US policy in the Middle East but it seems to me you are blaming the wrong entities with your post.

Palestinians use human shields and kill ordinary citizens in the name of Allah, with a doctrine of martyrdom/bringing infidels to justice along with an amazingly unimaginative description of paradise, while Israelis do their utmost to kill only Islamic terrorists in the name of self defense.

Yes, I know, it is so much more complicated than that and I wish neither religion nor the incompatible dogma existed. Rather than blame Israel (and the US) maybe you should wring your hands over the serious lack of reason that is needed especially in that part of the world if we are to survive as a species.

This is a good example of the sort of centrism we don't see often enough. The religious right is wrong to try to impose a theocracy. But the secular left is also wrong to oppose the efforts to make the country a theocracy. It is only those in the center, like you Ms. Quinn, who realize that we should fight the efforts to make the country a theocracy but also to criticize those who oppose these efforts. That's where the political center lies.

Hi Sally:

While you're saying grace, do you suppose you could say a special prayer to stop the Christianists from abusing the public schools by proselytizing?

Here's the story from the Newark Star Ledger, where a history teacher spent the first week of class telling the kids they "belonged in Hell" unless they accepted Jesus.

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1163571262150640.xml&coll=1

The beauty part is, that when the Christianist teacher was called into the principal's office, he lied about what he'd been doing -- until the student who'd been taping him pulled out the CDs.

More like this please!

May the God of Your Choice, If Any, bless your Thanksgiving!

While you're being grateful for your special loved ones and while you give grace, do you think at all about the Palestinians and what you, as a citizen in this most graceful country are empowering the Israels to do to them?

Say grace.

Thank you.

Sally, thank you for sharing so vulnerably about your family, previous Thanksgiving dinners and faith. I thank the Lord for you and for your willingness to say grace once again, even in remembering your dear father. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving with your family and with your family memories.