A Lesson From 9/11: We have an enemy who would like to destroy us and our civilization.

Good Morning. Yes, more love is needed. Today is a day of celebration of a life given back. I worked at 1WTC on the 80th Floor and was at work that beautiful blue sky Tuesday morning. Not to give the whole story but as I was walking through the mall trying to get out not knowing what was going on, the building started to rumble, sort of what I would believe a huge tornado would feel like. All I could here myself screaming to the top of my lungs, God please help me. He got me out of that building and all I could remember was my walking pass the church on the Dey Street side of the Bldg. All I can say is I'm very thankful that God heard my prayers and that was the start of a new life, surrendered to God and being so very thankful for his mercy, loving kindness and undeserved favor. May we live a life of love, pleasing God, and not talking the talking but walking the walk of Love.

Here's the picture: I'm the one w/my hand on my head: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/america.remembers/faces.section.html

Grace, Peace and Love to Everyone...

Love?????

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

Well put Mr. Shriver, but there is no hope in the posts you get in reply. There will always be people who can't get beyond their own tribalism, people who live to hate, and they come in all races and exist in all religions. Using the excuse of the 9/11 attacks you see them right here on these board, stoking the fires of religious and racial hatred. Most of the terrorist attacks in recent times in America have been carried out by white Christians, but we don't see "concerned chrisian" or "just saying" talking about them, just the Muslims. Christianity has a worse history of violence than Islam, period.

"Most of the terrorist attacks in recent times in America have been carried out by white Christians"

Really? Timothy Shriver is a white Christian.

Provide evidence.

Religion talks about love but more often than not it preaches fear and hate.

From August 15, 2008-

Iranian Assembly of Experts member Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami said that when the Mahdi arrives, there would be "[real] globalization" and "Islamic revival will sweep over the entire
world." He added, "Not a single house will remain on the face of the earth... unpenetrated by Islam."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n1REfwV9pg

Angela,

I'm very glad you got out. God bless.

Arminius

9/11 was tragic not question about that. It was a day much like the day Kennedy was assinated, all of us that are alive remember exactly where we were. We probably all remember where we were on 9/11 also.

I remmeber in the in weeks following 9/11 where our country was. We were united. We had been attacked and were ready to do anything we needed to do so it wouldn't happen again.

People of all faiths, races and religions banded together to let the world know we were not going to stand for this type of terriorism ever again. It was a grand feeling in America. Unfortunately it took that kind of tragedy to bring us together - What's it going to take this time?

6) Heaven sent, where 70 virgins await each Islamic martyr on a homicidal-suicidal mission, 19 corrosive terrorists pulverize into an Arabian desert sand storm: desolate and deserted; no bad guys; no car chase; no planes; no black boxes, no survivors, no witnesses, no testimonies, no revenge to seek; no justice to exact; no war to win; and no Hollywood movie. Arise: Awake. New world order and Office of Homeland Security: cockpit dead bolts, armed pilots and martial art stewardesses, no curb side check-in and Arab profiling strip searches. An inferno, charred bodies incinerate into ashes, few funerals, many memorial tributes, urns of WTC dirt comfort. Cremated. Sobbing. Closure.Weeping widows, wailing orphans, donations flood the Red Cross.International terrorism: a worldwide menace. Terrorists: a worldwide monstrosity. Arise: Reborn. One true empyrean: a phoenix, names of loved ones are inscribed on the walls of the observation deck, sacred ground, a shrine,
the hatched angels hover, protecting the Twin Towers rebuilt. Lighting a blowtorch,ironworkers, engineers, teamsters, laborers, and dock builders take turns... Last steel column of 2WTC, 58 tons, no. 1,001B, is cut down at 8:17 p.m. Heartbroken, resting in peace, archangel-chief architect Minoru Yamasaki said,
"A beautiful solution of form and silhouette. “ WorldWISE: democracy, liberty, freedom, love, prosperity, goodness, security, and peace. We Shall Overcome.Spiraling Downward, Upward We Stand United.

Sharon Esther Lampert
http://www.worldfamouspoems.com
#1 Poetry Website for Students for School Projects

Angela-

Thank you for sharing your story this morning. So many suffered and died on that day.

I'll never forget the heroism of Americans who faced an attack on our country with courage and love.

6) Heaven sent, where 70 virgins await each Islamic martyr on a homicidal-suicidal mission, 19 corrosive terrorists pulverize into an Arabian desert sand storm: desolate and deserted; no bad guys; no car chase; no planes; no black boxes, no survivors, no witnesses, no testimonies, no revenge to seek; no justice to exact; no war to win; and no Hollywood movie. Arise: Awake. New world order and Office of Homeland Security: cockpit dead bolts, armed pilots and martial art stewardesses, no curb side check-in and Arab profiling strip searches. An inferno, charred bodies incinerate into ashes, few funerals, many memorial tributes, urns of WTC dirt comfort. Cremated. Sobbing. Closure.Weeping widows, wailing orphans, donations flood the Red Cross.International terrorism: a worldwide menace. Terrorists: a worldwide monstrosity. Arise: Reborn. One true empyrean: a phoenix, names of loved ones are inscribed on the walls of the observation deck, sacred ground, a shrine,
the hatched angels hover, protecting the Twin Towers rebuilt. Lighting a blowtorch,ironworkers, engineers, teamsters, laborers, and dock builders take turns... Last steel column of 2WTC, 58 tons, no. 1,001B, is cut down at 8:17 p.m. Heartbroken, resting in peace, archangel-chief architect Minoru Yamasaki said,
"A beautiful solution of form and silhouette. “ WorldWISE: democracy, liberty, freedom, love, prosperity, goodness, security, and peace. We Shall Overcome.Spiraling Downward, Upward We Stand United.

Sharon Esther Lampert
http://www.worldfamouspoems.com
#1 Poetry Website for Students for School Projects

Arminius,

Thank you. I find that sometimes we may be a little too passionate about what we know God has done for us and may come off as being self-righteous and I always go back and examine myself as that is never my intention but it does happen sometimes and I ask for forgiveness in a humble and meek spirit to God and to those who I may offend. I know what He's done for me and How he's patiently waiting to show His loving kindness to all who know on the dorr and seek Him.

Have a wonderful day and may we rejoice in Life...

Tim wrote, " '...the priest is talking about love. He is saying 'we must love.' It really is that simple."
Tim, this statement is more empty and less helpful than saying to a non-swimmer with whom one has fallen overboard into the middle of an Atlantic Ocean squall, "we must swim - it really is that simple."
To love requires faith/trust in the beloved, because the lover exposes himself to not just the possibility but the eventuality (in this world) of pain and harm that will result from loving.
Only religions which champion and whose basic faith is founded on the supremacy of selflessly loving others, selflessly giving to others, and selflessly sacrificing for others will be able to promote peace on earth.
Christianity is the supreme example of such a religion. For those unafraid of following the truth wherever it leads, this will become apparent, if it is not apparent to them now.

Very true message. We must love and live in unity! Have you heard of the annual Unity Walk?

During the DC walk, “every church, synagogue, mosque and temple on Embassy Row opens their doors to each other and symbolically the world.” This year's walk will be Sunday, September 14. Please join us!

Details are here: http://www.911unitywalk.org

When "religions" were hijacked by hate?

What religion besides radical Islam was invoked in the atrocities of 9/11?

Yes, all religions have caused death and destruction but in the present moment, only Islam has.

Besides 9/11 Muslims blow up civlians every day in some part of the world, they call 57 nations exclusively Islamic thus insulting non-Muslims.

It amazes me that no one remembers that the world mourned with us after 9/11. No one remembers that in the months following 9/11 Muslims were uniting against the terrorists. No one remembers that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. We forget that, 7 years later, the U.S. has still not found Bin Laden. We forget that on September 6th, 2006 the number of deaths of U.S. citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan surpassed the number of casualties in the 9/11 attacks. How many more people would be alive in this world today if the U.S. had realized that revenge would only increase the natred?

No Beverly Last-

I remember:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WWS2ReyZ-E

No love for the thousands of US soldiers and hundreds of thousands of innocent muslim children, men and women killed in Iraq by a war they did not start?

What quality of love is needed from Christians, non- Christians and non-believers if this world is to remain habitable for all? Or does the quality of love we ask of ourselves does not entitle everyone to a humanely habitable world?

What then do we mean from our hearts when speak of 'love'? Yet another slogan? Other primates do better than this.

"When suicide bombers kill ruthlessly in the name of God, all religions are implicated. We are all called to repent of religious violence."

It's funny when monotheists get 'all-inclusive' about religions... (instead of just being inclusive of the ones who worship the same God) when trying to spread the *blame* around, even to people who have been bystanders or even victims.

But to those wondering what other religion got 'hijacked' as a result of that day, one need look no further than those who *used* it to try and empower fundamentalist *Christianity* to go and attack people who had nothing to do with the attacks, to hate all Muslims, and alienate a sympathetic world so they could pursue militarism and theocracy here at home.

Those who constantly harped on 9/11 to terrorize *us* into voting against our own interests and our own freedoms and our own social progress and domestic tranquility.

They hijacked *another* religion you might have heard of.

"Those who constantly harped on 9/11 to terrorize *us* into voting against our own interests and our own freedoms and our own social progress and domestic tranquility."

When pagans post against *Christianity* -it is the epitome of fooling thinking.

Is there an enemy who intends to see America destroyed?

Under their laws -what happens to a homosexual or a person practicing witchcraft?

Perhaps someday the *Christian* will step aside and leave you to work out your peace with Islam.

More love can be found, than can be lost. The world is a big lost and found. Finders keepers, losers weepers. Love will keep you busy. Ask anybody with a baby and they'll tell you just how busy you can be, so keep getting busy. Love will find a way and it will be good. Have a great day.

Here is my memorial to 9/11, which I posted on an international forum where I still have many friends. I posted it on 9/14, in answer to my friends there who were so concerned:

This is an American speaking.

If you are not here, you cannot, cannot imagine what is happening here. You may grieve at the destruction, and nod your heads wisely at the outpouring of emotion, but you have no concept of what has been emerging.

The grief is universal and overwhelming. Speaking for myself, a hardened old bastard if there ever was one, I weep openly at what has happened. I see that in many others, too.

The anger is cold, deep, and terrible. It is not a passing thing. It has penetrated to the heart of America, will drive us on for a long, long, time, and will take generations to undo.

The determination cannot be measured by man, only God holds the scale to see what it is. We are coming. Join us, get out of the way, or die. An exaggeration, of course, but it sums up how we feel.

There is little fear except in New York, that City of Heroes. And they are dealing with their fear in a manner which inspires us all.

Make no mistake, this is war. Make no mistake. Not your usual war, but the new, ultimate version of Guerrilla War, the Global Vietnam. Faceless enemy which can be anywhere, with shifting bases. But it will be fought with a different selection of guns this time, and a different outlook. We know, and our leaders know, that this is not simple, there are no 'silver bullets', no easy solutions. It will take years, even decades. It will be fought by soldiers and lawyers, by spies and accountants. It will use bullets and economics and bombs and diplomacy as its weapons. It will be fought by killing and by building up the economies of countries, by fighting and by trade, by cruise missiles and by the internet.

The front line is everywhere, we are all combatants. And it is not just American; over 500 people from England, Australia, Ireland, Germany, and elsewhere died in New York.

It should never have been this way. Life is supposed to be about wonderful things, cold beer, and good friends. I feel like we are caught up in some cosmic Greek tragedy that even Euripides would have shrunk from writing - if you want to read the greatest anti-war document ever penned, read his 'Trojan Women', there is a wonderful film version.

Perhaps we should all sit down together and think upon the words of one of my heroes, Martin Luther King, Jr., which he took from Gandhi: "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."

Thank you all for your support, kindness, and prayers.

Marc-

Christianity before the release of the Nt scriptures had its issues.

Radical Islam makes those days seem very insignificant given the weapons of destruction they could get their hands on.

You are muddying the waters with your comment about Christianity and you should know that.

Bindas writes
"Yes, all religions have caused death and destruction but in the present moment, only Islam has"

You have a point, as long as you leave out
- the Protestand/Catholic conflicts in Ireland
- The Isreali terror against the people of Palestine
- The many "Christian" attacks inside the USA (it's not been that long since the OK City bombing)

Of course we have "true believers" of another stripe, the people who believe that America can do no wrong, who have no problem when we bomb wedding parties, or kill entire families trying to get one suspected terrorist.

Jon writes
' "Most of the terrorist attacks in recent times in America have been carried out by white Christians"
Really? Timothy Shriver is a white Christian.
Provide evidence. '

Oklahoma City bombing - white Christian
Olympic Park bomging in Atlanta - white Christian
Abortion clinics have been bombed by white Christians.
Abortion providers have been assassinated by white Christians

One should add that before we whine about 9/11, we ought to recall that it was Reagan who supported terrorists in Angola and Nicaragua, as well as traded arms to Iranian backed terrorists.

I just burned my lunch. I was able to salvage everything except the bread and then I hear a strange aircraft flying over. It looked like a bomber. It could of been a transport. It wasn't in a hurry. I'll try to salvage some of the bread for the birds that live here. It's always something.

How about a look from another point of view... God never deals with people en masse, but always with an individual. That is how each of us 'knows' God; as a unique person. With that said, it is institutions (religious, government, military) that are always spearheaded by a person or small group of persons: Christ at the center of Christianity; Buddha at the center Buddhism; Hitler at the center of Nazism. Doing horrible things in the name of any institution can always be traced back to one or more persons: 9/11 belongs to Bin Laden and his minions. That's why I am glad that at 9/11 memorials, they always read the names of the individuals; as persons of the collective tragedy. And as for Love... C.S. Lewis defined it as: 'wanting the ultimate good for the person loved' and myself, I find that true. What is the ultimate good? Assuming some of the righteous character of God in this life: Loving, forgiving, merciful, kind; and in brief; the very nature of Christ on the cross.

" Remember:

""Those who constantly harped on 9/11 to terrorize *us* into voting against our own interests and our own freedoms and our own social progress and domestic tranquility.""

"When pagans post against *Christianity* -it is the epitome of fooling thinking."

It's not 'against Christianity' to point out someone hijacked a lot of you guys, too.

This is exactly the kind of us-vs-them 'for us or against us' fanaticism being discussed, here.

"Is there an enemy who intends to see America destroyed?"

Ask Ms. Palin. Her Churches want to see a civil war in America to institute a theocracy where I'll be stoned in public. Maybe before the hockey game. Hope they got a heck of a Zamboni.

"Under their laws -what happens to a homosexual or a person practicing witchcraft?"

Same thing that happens lawlessly here when a guy walks into the UU cause someone taught him to hate and blame people like me for what you get when you vote against your own interest.

Same thing that Sarah Palin's churches want to see happen to the next generation of people like me.

"Perhaps someday the *Christian* will step aside and leave you to work out your peace with Islam."

Doubtless after you make sure you've got your 'war of civilizations' in full swing.

This is America. Saying, 'Those guys over there are worse, take what I dish out and like it,' isn't what I call *good* or American.

Trust me, I have no interest in what some Christians call 'their job.' I have always fought, even physically, at need, to protect people, Christians included, when actually attacked. This is what *my* Gods taught me, while a lot of Christians were trying to demonstrate I'd have nothing to lose by becoming whatever it is you fear about people who are different.

It's not 'anti-Christian' to point out that as many of your own better-intentioned leaders have pointed out, ...this attack was used to *hijack *your* religion,* not to mention *our* country, and turn it to the service of fear and hate.

Frankly, the fanatical and irresponsible responses of Bush and company turned a moment when sympathy for and support of America was at its *highest ever* to one which made us an international pariah, with a bankrupted and overextended military, ...our national wealth largely transferred to debt in order to pay the corporate fatcats who profiteered off the carnage.

And practically torn this nation in two in the process. Conservative Christianity made that attack successful beyond Bin Laden's wildest dreams.

Threatening me or my people won't change that.

There are plenty of those among you who think I should be treated just as badly as the Saudis might. I should know, I've been threatened by them periodically, all my life.

Hardly makes much difference in what brand name of fanaticism someone proposes to do nasty things to me and mine.

Pardon if I have somewhat higher standards for the land of Liberty right now. You know. Land of the free, home of the brave, all that?

I have no interest in seeing you or your religion harmed. But that doesn't excuse hijacking the country for tyranny by fear and hatred. Doesn't help you, doesn't help me, doesn't help the world.

What we need from religion is not love, but we need religion to get out of public sphere.

People who are religious are either stupid or naive. In your case, Mr. Shiver, you're just a little naive.

Also, why don't you go have 11 kids like many of your other relatives?

The only reason why the Post gives you space is because of your last name.

There has been a dream called America, 'Remember.'

One I'm not willing to give up, so some can think the only way to be 'safe' is to become the mirror of the worst they can imagine in others.

We will *not* justify acting out of fear by claiming others are 'worse,' ...we have higher standards here. We will not forget those standards, or abandon them, or compromise our hopes for the future or national honor any more.

It should take more than a few flying bombs to do that.

Nothing's forgotten.

C.S. Lewis defined it as: 'wanting the ultimate good for the person loved' and myself, I find that true.

After the attacks I thought about this sort of thing a great deal. I thought about the babies and children. How does this turn out in the long-term? How do we secure their future? Thinking about Jesus is nice. I just wasn't as concerned as much about him because he can take care of himself as we well know. The proper reward for love is justice and they deserve all the justice we can deliver. I have been living my whole life that way. The goal of terrorism is to destroy justice. It won't happen because love can't be destroyed and progress is born of courage. Each generation builds for the future. We are all builders and America has courage.

You pray for world peace, I'll pray that Dobson has bleeding hemorrhoids and stage 3 syphilis.

Oh, don't make me defend *that* guy, P. He's got plenty his own malice coming back at him, anyway.

Marc-"Christianity before the release of the Nt scriptures had its issues. Radical Islam makes those days seem very insignificant given the weapons of destruction they could get their hands on."

During the Christian on Christian 30 Years War, half the population of Germany was killed (roughly 8 million people). What have islamic folks done to compare with that? Do you need more examples of Christian terrorism, war and murder? Islam has a long history of tolorance of other religions, while Christianity has a long history of expelling or killing people because they weren't Christian.
This of course doesn't justify the actions carried out in the name of Islam by radicals, but Christianity has it's fundamentalists, as does Judism, and none of them are "better" than the others.

"You are muddying the waters with your comment about Christianity and you should know that"

You know, there would have been no 9/11 attacks if the administration in charge at the time had bothered to pay attention to the threat of terrorism.
- when Bush took office he refused to go after Al Qaeda for the attack on the USS Cole because "it wasn't on his watch"
- Bush ignored many, many warnings about the threat of terrorism
- Bush ignored the specific warning that Bin Laden was going to attack inside the USA
- On 911 Bush was frozen in panic, doing nothing while America was under attack.

September 11th should be just another date, and it would be, but for the complete incompetence of the Republican party.

"Islam has a long history of tolorance of other religions, "

Well, to be fair, it also has a long history of *brutality* toward other religions.

It's just the answer to that isn't more brutality.

By anyone.

Paganplace:
"Islam has a long history of tolorance of other religions, "

"Well, to be fair, it also has a long history of *brutality* toward other religions."

Compared to Christianity? Nope.
It wasn't Muslims who carried out the Holocaust.
It wasn't Muslims that wiped out the native cultures of North and South America.
The Muslims didn't purge their lands of Christians and Jews.
Yeah, Islam and Christianity have been involved in religious wars, but one has been worse than the other, period.

"Compared to Christianity? Nope."

I'm a simple Pagan. Comparisons of that kind don't count for much.

Especially cause I'm Irish. I know that don't solve anything.

I'm interested in what we do next.

I mean, frankly, the lot of you Abrahamics got plenty of things you could take as written license to do whatever you want to whoever you want.

I'm thinking exercises in comparative condemnation aren't going to help, here. I certainly have my criticisms of both Christians and Muslims on this count, but trying to claim the one should be embraced over the other 'cause it's us' is just silly. This is about humans.

What do we *want?*

And what are you willing to do to get it.

You guys can write yourselves all the permission slips you want, any ol' time.

Doesn't make you better than each other.

Can you be better than you were *yesterday?* That's the question.

On the anniversary of 911 get a LOAD of Marc Edward's hero Michael Moore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBrRWPARRgw

OK, Paganplace,

Yer on yer high horse. Please dismount. I am one 'Abrahamic' type that condemns all fanatics of any stripe, and knows full well that there are no true 'get out of jail free' cards ever issued by Christianity. And, believe me, I ain't alone.

You are NOT a simple Pagan. Ain't nuthin' simple 'bout you, friend.

Yeah, tell me about Irish. My father was born there. Freud supposedly said that the Irish are the one people who cannot be psychoanalyzed. I take that as a grand compliment.

Please stop the angry generalities. You are better than that.

I wasn't saying all Christians choose to use them, Arminius, any more than all Muslims do.

But history shows they are there. And they are used by some when it suits them.

Whether a majority agrees with them or not.

Friend Paganplace,

I know how you feel about this. I'm only asking you not to generalize, because it gives the wrong impression to others. Hell, if you ever think I'm outta line, I'm sure you will slam me, and I will thank you for correcting me.

Someone, I could not tell whether it is Mark or Paganplace, is repeating some of the talking points of the enemies of the West. Below are the most common of accusations in the form of questions and my humble replies.

“Who exterminated 6 million Jews?”
A crazy man and he did not do it in the name of his God.
Who wiped out the native cultures of North and South America?
The more fitting European culture. It is a case of the survival of the fittest.
“Who deposited two nuclear bombs in the middle of big cities?”
The USA did and it will do it again if our security is endangered.
“Who tore asunder a country that did not attack them on 9/11? “
Saddam had in order to intimidate his neighbors leaked to them that he had weapons of mass destruction. His Arab neighbors did not lose time in passing that information to us. We were not about to fold our hands and wait till we see mushroom clouds rise above our cities.
“Who practiced the Atlantic slave trade?”
A more appropriate question is who hunted those people and sold them as slaves and is doing this till this date.
Who started the Crusade Wars?
It is only after centuries of invading Christian lands and looting and pillaging their people, burning their churches, killing and enslaving them and prohibiting European pilgrims from reaching their holy places that finally prompted some Europeans to act.

It's not a 'generalization,' Arminius.

It's basically a simple fact that both Christian and Islamic religion have ample textual 'justifications' to do whatever they choose to do to anyone they like, so it's foolish to try and 'compare' as if the answer to all this was to 'Just impose one or the other' as if that was ever in anyone's power.

It's about what you choose. You're obviously someone who chooses the good, as are, one hopes, the Muslim people who we *do* need to deal with, rather than declare 'war' on.

Certainly it's sadly amusing, if it isn't making me 'angry' when someone comes along and says that as long as they demonize someone else, I should accept *their* tyrrany.

Had another one of those instances today of a Christian essentially saying I should be silent about what happens in my own country cause he can imagine Muslims would do worse.

Personally, I think we ought to fence off a nice piece of land, hand bronze swords and spears to all the guys with a hankering for 'holy war' and let them fight over *that.*

It'd save a lot of fuss.

Anyway, Arminius, the 'simplicity' in that sense isn't to be taken for a lack of sophistication, just that when it comes down to it, all these sorts of textual 'justifications' and supposed 'literalisms' and 'proofs' of goodness or badness or whatever,

...simply don't enter into certain evaluations.

Paganplace, you said,

"It's basically a simple fact that both Christian and Islamic religion have ample textual 'justifications' to do whatever they choose to do to anyone they like, so it's foolish to try and 'compare' as if the answer to all this was to 'Just impose one or the other' as if that was ever in anyone's power."

My reply: I am Christian. DO I DO THESE THINGS?

I am NOT alone in this. Stop, friend. Please.

AMH-

I too have noticed a number of left-leaning posters here are repeating the talking points of our enemies.

Some are posting knowingly. But some seem to be simply repeating what they have heard somewhere else.

Far left Americans and radical Islamists are united in their hatred of Americans and their desire to conquer and destroy America.

The lefties don't realize: if Islam gains control in America they will be the first to disappear..

Creepy isn't it?

Just on this:

""“Who tore asunder a country that did not attack them on 9/11? “
"Saddam had in order to intimidate his neighbors leaked to them that he had weapons of mass destruction."

This is the case, but *Bush* had better intel than that. Saddam had to play games with the inspectors to pretend he still had that trump card, in order for his enemies to think he still had chemical weapons, any of which hadn't been found by the UN having long since degraded past military usefulness. We should know. We gave them to him in the early 80s.

And even if he *had* some newly-cooked stuff, the actual 'faith-based' war plan involved the boneheaded move of *disbanding the Iraqi army,* instead of taking control of it, while leaving an ammo dump unguarded for all the high explosive in those IEDs to end up in the wind.

This was a major blunder in execution, if not intent.

" His Arab neighbors did not lose time in passing that information to us. We were not about to fold our hands and wait till we see mushroom clouds rise above our cities."

Bush *lied* about the mushroom clouds, and rushed the action at the expense of decent execution before this could come out, using already-debunked intel about a spurious claim about yellowcake uranium. Remember the Downing Street memoes?

"My reply: I am Christian. DO I DO THESE THINGS?"

That was never at issue, Arminius. And I said so. Easy, there. The point here is *keeping* our heads.

It's about who's terrorizing who:

Like this:

"The lefties don't realize: if Islam gains control in America they will be the first to disappear.."

The fearmongers don't realize, ...it's *not possible for 'Islam' to gain control in America right now,* and our more immediate worries are about those who *might* using fear of Islam to bollix up the American way of life and economy so badly that few would be inclined to care much. :)

Paganplace,

We have here the classical 'failure to communicate'.

All I am saying is when you slam Christians, always with good reason, you might just insert a word such as 'most', or even 'some', before 'Christians'. Your posts about this are coming across as absolutist, and you risk being labeled as a Pagan bigot. Tone it down, somehow. You are not doing your Pagan friends, or me, or yourself, any favors by being black and white. Ain't no silver bullets, friend, as you well know.

BARACK OBAMA IS UNFIT FOR COMMAND

I'm still recovering from this clown's speech today on the campaign trail, Obama talked with reporters on Iraq, showing that winning in Iraq as not nearly as important as repeating far left talking points from the fringe of his party.

I guess Barack Obama is so busy on the campaign trail he doesn't watch the news, he criticizes Bush for not having a timetable, yet a year ago he called for all combat troops out. Thank God he didn't have his way.

Both Barack Obama and Joe Biden voted and argued against the surge in Iraq which is successful and the reason we're winning in Iraq.(thank you John McCain)

Then he says we need to pressure the Iraqis to stand up and take more responsibility--

NEWSFLASH to Obama: Al Anbar province was turned over to the Iraqis a week ago.

This 4 minutes from Barack Obama shows what a inexperienced far left wing partisan empty suit sounds like when given a microphone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hH0XbEztlo

"I'm still recovering from this clown's speech today on the campaign trail,"

Well, that's interesting, since both campaigns took the day off, today, in honor of the fallen.

Well, Arminius, all I was saying is that any of you 'book religion people *could* trot out this or that passage to justify whatever.

Our only hope for peace in the world is those who choose not to.

Paganplace,

"Well, Arminius, all I was saying is that any of you 'book religion people *could* trot out this or that passage to justify whatever."

Me: but some of us don't, and a blanket statement condemns those of us who do not say such things.

"Our only hope for peace in the world is those who choose not to."

Me: Agreed. Of course.

Great article!

I once read something that gave me hope. An article referencing recent studies of ancient DNA supports the hypothesis that the entire human race descended from one African woman thousands of years ago.

I don't know if it will turn out to be true, or if further study will reveal something else, but it certainly made me think. If it is true, we are - literally - one family.

Of course, it will make Thanksgiving a little crowded...

We can breed one giant turkey too, since we will all be eating at one big table this Thanksgiving. The truth is that everything natural and right yearns for seperation, trias politica. The only thing binding us together is love and if you can get everybody to love everybody else you can take over Gods big job. The real world is messy and complex. I don't see much of the people I know I'm related to, so speculating on being related to all these other people going back to the start isn't as important as the future. Look at all of the new families having a first Thanksgiving, creating new traditions and honoring old ones. That's love and that's worth being thankful for. It's good knowing you have enemies out there and you aren't related. I'm in a Commonwealth.

One world, one people.

Peace

If we were all related we would have one bible for all. The fact that we don't suggests that we are all not related and I take comfort in that.
Sometimes you get home on foot and sometimes you get booted. No bin laden or hussein blood in my lines or veins and none in the future. No love there, just love lost. Sometimes we must lose love.

"The 26th Regiment of Foot was an infantry regiment of the British Army. It was raised as the Cameronian Guard in 1688 by the Lords of the Convention and named after the followers of Richard Cameron. The following year it entered British service under King William III. Although the regiment took the name of its colonel, it became popularly known as The Cameronians until 1751, when it was ranked as the 26th Foot. The regiment was known as the 26th (Cameronian) Regiment until 1881, when it merged with the 90th Regiment of Foot to form The Cameronians (Scotch Rifles). Because of its origins in a religious movement, the regiment issued bibles to all of its new soldiers as part of their kit, a tradition that continued after amalgamation."

Re: "If we were all related we would have one bible for all. The fact that we don't suggests that we are all not related and I take comfort in that."

That statement is not logical. People can be related by blood and not happen to share a world view - in fact, most of the time, they do not.

And please clarify the rather obscure quote. I'm not sure what it means and how it's relevent to the present discussion.

One World.

Peace.

Marc said:

"During the Christian on Christian 30 Years War, half the population of Germany was killed (roughly 8 million people)."

Just a nitpicking point, but it wasn't half all across Germany. In certain sectors where the fighting raged back and forth there was a depopulation of half or more, but most of these weren't killed. They left because they never knew when marauding armies would take their food or shake them down for support. Its very similar to any other war zone. Like Iraq, where over a million left for other countries. Its not same as a million being killed.

I am not arguing against your point. I'll save that for another day, but I hate for facts to get maligned. They are so much more useful when used properly.

It depends on the names in the bible and the notes. The details make all the difference. DNA can be manipulated to show any result you want. Try getting your hands on every family bible ever used. You could never do it. Adam and Eve started one family and then there were other not in the bible.

Sir William
+Catherine +Elizabeth +Margaret +Mary +Molly +Caroline
Ann (1) Keghneghtago(4) Tagawirunta Mary Peter (7) William(15)
John (2) Thomas (5) (6) Elizabeth(8) daughter
Mary (3) Christian Magdelene(9) daughter
Margaret (10)
George (11)
Mary (12)
Susanna(13)
Anne (14)

You have the Magdelenes and everybody else.

With DNA you throw all this data into a computer and turn humanity into a bunch of numbers and come up with one. We all get reduced to the lowest common denominator. Look at UAL, it went to $3.00 thanks to the computer, which might be what it's really worth in spite of a computer error or whatever. They don't even know. Some mistakes are greater than others. United is investigating. They are also selling legroom for $14.00. They just can't get the stock to $14.00, so some problems are bigger than others.

A spokeswoman from UAL said: "Our investigation as to how and why this happened is ongoing. It would be inappropriate for us to comment on any aspect of the ...And the SEC is investigating it.
Maybe it's just mismanagement, which is just a guess. We may have one airline soon. With no competition, that won't work. There's just one love so you need to hold on for dear life and protect the kids. Stretch your legs for free, go for a walk.

I don't see how mitochondrial DNA can be "manipulated," but I'm no scientist, so I'll concede your point.

I just like seeing the world as one family - call it a failing if you like. Looking at it that way (for me) makes life a little easier; otherwise, I want to throw myself under a bus and I'd like to avoid that option.

If everyone is family, then I have no reason to hate anyone.

One World.

Peace.

Americans would never put up with Islam taking over, it's too foreign to our experience.

But we just might let the fundies take over, have thought about that?

It looks like we're about to do it in fact. How long would America remain Beautiful if these ugly people were to actually take over?

And somehow our best alternative is the democrats? We are an empire in decline, it's hard not see things that way now. We're getting fatter and dumber and turning into religious stooges in a large mass movement.

I wish I could pray it were otherwise, but that kind of thinking is what has us at this point in the first place. It's really quite sad, we were something special once.

Answer This, please... coz I'm stupid..

Which nation always promote war in this modern era???? forget middle ages they were simple back then.. Modern era? where people called they more Sophiscated, intellegent, more human right champion..????

Some people can't be tolerated, so I'm not a very tolerant person. I try not to hate, but you have to hate evil and crush it totally. That's what the military is doing for us. Then the fools complain and protest. As long as there is evil, it has to be confronted and killed. You have to keep killing people. Nobody wants to get hit by a bus. People wanted to fly jets into buildings and saying sorry won't cut it. Once blood is spilled there's no going back and they started spilling the blood. Childrens blood in the Pentagon. Never forget that. I had my blood spilled, but I got more.

The wisdom post 9/11 is that secular, liberal countries should:

1. Stop Muslim immigrants coming inside their countries

2. Officially ban the practice of Islam

3. Have no relations with Muslim countries

4. Beam anti-Islam propaganda via satellite everywhere

5. Collectively ostracize all Muslim countries

ISLAM IS A BARBARIC RELIGION !

Unlike many of the architects of the Iraq war, I didn't avoid military service and served with honor.

As to the real world fact that we must kill those that try to kill us, no argument. Give me a gun and would shoot bin Laden myself.

Neither fact negates the notion of relatedness - families feud and sometimes hate each other. Oh well..

Oh well, some people make life miserable for you and you press on and do the best you can. You try to start a new family and find love. You need to keep searching for love because we must love. We must protect and serve our country too.

Arminius,

On your reaction to Paganplace's generalisations about Abrahamic religionists, climaxing with - "Your posts about this are coming across as absolutist, and you risk being labeled as a Pagan bigot." - I feel compelled to protest. As a keen reader of these threads, I've always been impressed at the sagacity, sanity, and salty verve of Paganplace's posts - whatever one may make of their gist, there's not a trace of bigotry about them! In this instance Arminius, in your concern to extricate your faith from its past and present misusers, you have grown shrill. And some generalisations surely are valid. Both Muslims and Christians of all stripes - including you - are implicated in Holy Scriptures that explicitly divide humanity into "absolutist" us/them polarities, and consign those outside the sect - them - to eternal incineration. It's there in the foundational documents, any way you look at it, no matter how much "love" and "peace" are extolled alongside. You'd think God would take care not to enshrine such incendiary, easily misinterpreted stuff in Holy Writ. But it's there, and it's apparently not negotiable. And that's far more "absolutist" than anything Paganplace has written!

God lets things go -- but only to a point.

Hey, Deb Chatter,

Regarding your post at (:16 p.m.

How coe you always, ALWAYS have something so intelligent, so profound, so full of love and understanding and compassion to say?

In all of nature -- from the Physical Reality made up of the four physical forces that are known to exist and all the matter, including the Higgs Boson, the source from which we are told all matter derives mass and whose actual existence the Physicists working on the brand new Large Hadron Collider at CERN in Geneva are expected to finally discover, to the Biological Reality whose profoundest nature Craig Ventner’s recent discoveries, again we are told, are throwing new light on, to the Cognitive Reality that Roger Penrose tells us involves non-computable phenomena and neuroscientists tell us involve ‘emergent’ phenomena incorporating transcendental qualia and quanta -- forces of growth and of decay coexist.

However, invariably, the forces of growth, of love, of hope always -- ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE – outweigh the forces of decay, of hate, of despair.

So, let’s cheer up and, even at our infinitesimally small level, contribute to help these positive cosmic forces along.

stupid wrote "Answer This, please... coz I'm stupid..Which nation always promote war in this modern era???? "

Is it Russia because they supply RPGs to terrorists around the world? Is it Iran because they always say Israel must cease to exist? Was it Iraq when Sadam still ruled it or Afghanistan when Bin Ladin ruled it? Was it Russia when it invaded Afghanistan and occupied it? Is it China because it supplies arms to rogue nations?

Ahh I know, it's the cure or medicine that you call that "promote war". It's the nation that stand up to these stupid nations.

You're exactly right . YOU TRULY IS AN IDIOT.

Let's say it thru our MOUTH " Love, Love, Love!! ". But let us NOT look down at our HANDS as we try to ABORT BABIES. Let us raise our hands as we shout love, love, love but don't bother the blood dripping from our hands.

What hypocricy.

I got you.. annoy..

"We didn't start the fire" &
"Houlier than Thou" types of Ego..

Stupid I'am.. Hypocrite you are...

peace.

homesower writes
Marc said:

"During the Christian on Christian 30 Years War, half the population of Germany was killed (roughly 8 million people)."

"Just a nitpicking point, but it wasn't half all across Germany. In certain sectors where the fighting raged back and forth there was a depopulation of half or more, but most of these weren't killed"

I have no idea where you get your information from. I recently had the pleasure of finishing an old (WW2 era) college text book on the subject. The population of the German provinces were reduced by a little less than 1/2.
Pretending that they disappeared but were otherwise OK is rather silly.

To Pamela - when did I ever say Moore was my hero? He's a decent film maker, and I credit him for exposing our President's panic on 9/11/01. I'm not into the "hero" thing - better luck next time on that.

fr NOW:

>...But we just might let the fundies take over, have thought about that?...

They already HAVE taken over. With dubya, along with his buddies jimmy dobdumb, tony perkins (of the laughable 'frc') and others. NOW we've got fundie, anti-gay, pro-book-CENSORSHIP palin thinking she's qualified for VP of the US. She's not even qualified to be dogcatcher.

cch and me think that was your best article yet, very moving, personal, and overall from the point where you started the description of the chinese church, outstanding!!!!
x0x0 cch

We must love the people doing the killing on our behalf. I am a busy person, so the military is doing me a great service. If more NFL players would follow the example set by Pat Tillman
http://www.pattillmanfoundation.org/ and quit the fun and games and get down to serious business, the world would be much more secure and the United States would be even greater than it is today. Of course making millions of dollars entertaining each other is more culturally acceptable. Battle on the field is celebrated and battle on the battlefield is protested. The difference is that guns are involved and the liberals have worked for decades to ban guns and make them evil. The NFL drains our public coffers so we can build them real estate and delivers us to evil and the people serving with honor are delivering us from evil and they get disrespected. Like Pat Tillman, I say the hell with the NFL. They are a bunch of thieves with agents of doom bankrupting the United States. The soldier doesn't get paid a million dollars a minute to prove worth. It's for love of country. The NFL and the sports agents hate the United States and despise the fans. They are greedy to the point of depravity. Support the Troops.

WELCOME! Please Help-Us Celebrate the “International Year [of] Astronomy, 2009. Gallaleo’s 400th Year Anniversary [another Vatican Church Victim deprived of freedom]! Thank You!
.
.
IYA2009
.
.
By: http:////.......({..J..}).......({..O..}).......({..Z..}).......({...E.}).......({..V..}).......({..Z..})........dot...... US

.
.
O.rdained R.elationship M.inister [ORM}, Revelator & Defender of the 'Holy Cosmic Feeler Faith, aka 'Ho-Co-Fe-Fa' System; a belief like a religion, yet better & a Lover of "O.U.R.-B.O.T.", aka the Holy-Cosmic Bible, aka "O.ne U.niversal R.eligion B.ook O.f T.rans{Finity}"

iMportant REVELATiON (opposite of Secret or

MANNA from Heaven,

The Chinese Government allows no foreigner to live with a working class family. I have the guidelines in front of me. Living with a middle-upper class family, possibly. Living with the very wealthy class and very-well "connected" ( that are required to be involved with police payoff-scams, real-estate racketeering and government corruption), certainly.

If the author of this article is in any capacity a "retained" member of the Clergy or Priesthood ( and I do not know if he is or not ), then his misleading message of unity and love is underpinned by a darkly inisideous economic arrangement that ironically excludes the very working class he promotes as spiritual allies.

The authors' notion of Love is dim-sighted. Since when "must" you love anyone? Love is not motivated by "musts", well, not if you have reflected on the matter, even slightly. (Try Plato's Lysis.) The author's use of "must" in the article is theological pap, and it reads this way, too. It is to be ignored.

Anonymous,

You are wrong. I lived in China for 6 years and recently repatriated to the US. I know many young people who live or lived with Chinese families, in Chinese boarding schools, etc.. Not only are there programs that allow these situations, but there are many Chinese people who encourage it. I don't know where you got your information, but let me give you a little hint...believe almost none of what you read about China. The only way to understand the Chinese culture is to live it.

Tim,

Thanks for the inspirational article about love...the lasting kind that you portray. People who know you, know that you "go about doing good" and that you have a great love for all people - even the ones who write such hateful things about you.

TDC

The Author remarks:

I looked next to me at my own 16-year-old son who had come to Beijing for a year of study, to live with a Chinese working-class family and study the language

On closer reading of my last letter you will find I am angry with the fact that "working-class" families are mentioned when as I have pointed out, they are excluded from sponsoring any foreigner because of their financial status and lack of political clout. It is not just a matter of submitting your “sponsoring a foreigner” application to the authorities and waiting by the mailbox.

I was tempted to distinguish between the Chinese working-poor and the Chinese working-class. But either way, I knew, just like you, that neither of these classes of Chinese citizens could afford to sponsor a foreigner. Quite often they cannot afford to feed themselves. I did identify, by simple elimination, just what class of Chinese citizens could probably pull-off sponsoring a foreigner's son. And it wasn’t the Chinese working-class: The factory worker, the noodle-puller, the hairdresser, the street-sweeper, the kiosk attendants....

Boarding schools are not for the Chinese working-class. We both can estimate the cost of boarding schools in China, and it is not cheap. I would be astonished if it was insisted that the working-class are capable of sending their children to Beijing boarding schools. We both know what it takes just to get a foot in the door of such places, let alone pay in one lump-sum tuition for three years. It is therefore impossible, or rare, to meet or become allied with a working-class student in such places, especially a Beijing boarding school.

Consequentially the son of the Author of the article will probably live with a "well connected" and affluent family, and necessarily with a full flushing toilet (no?). If so, then the hidden and ironic corollary reveals itself: the advertised spiritual alliance with the Chinese working-class that the Author asserts to have, or proposes to cultivate through the vehicle of his son’s academic activities, is not possible to achieve.

The average cost of a local boarding school for a Chinese child (provided they are the first and only child) was 600 RMB, as of a few years ago. At that time, 600 RMB was a hefty price for most of the indigenous people. However, most of the students I know helped with costs of living for the families they stayed with. The word "sponsor" doesn't necessarily mean paying for expenses, room and board.

I have a question for you. Where do you draw the line between working-class and working-poor? At the time I resided in the PRC, there was a definite line of demarcation between the "haves" and the "have nots". The masses of working/farming people living in the country-sides made less than 8 RMB per day. That adds up to about $365 per year. The food for the Chinese people is inexpensive - very inexpensive compared to our prices. While there, a sweet Chinese friend would prepare a massive meal for our family for less than $3 when she purchased the ingredients herself. Hundreds folks in Beijing that I knew (whom I think you would call the working-class) typically made between 600 - 1500 RMB. Still not much compared to our salaries.

With the change in living quarters in Beijing, I do not know what the toilet facilities are for the majority of common families now; however, what I saw was mostly squat toilets in working-class/poor dwellings, shopping areas, government facilities, sight-seeing areas, and the "upper class" homes.

A good friend of ours was at one time an interpreter for Mao Tse Tung. History tells us about Mao's stomach issues, but as my friend told me, history doesn't tell us that Mao had sit toilets installed and could not produce in that position, resulting in constipation. He had them ripped out and squat toilets replaced. It is a culture thing and I'm sure Tim's son will be accustomed to them soon, if not already. If Tim's son is anything like his father, he will be comfortable in any situation, as long as people are treating others with dignity.

anonymous,

You say, "The authors' notion of Love is dim-sighted. Since when "must" you love anyone? Love is not motivated by "musts", well, not if you have reflected on the matter, even slightly. (Try Plato's Lysis.) The author's use of "must" in the article is theological pap, and it reads this way, too. It is to be ignored.

Maybe you are unfamiliar with St. Paul's definition of love in 1Corintians 13:

If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.

My own addition. Love is doing things for others without expecting anything in return. Sure, no individual MUST do this and many DON'T. But if everyone DID do this, the world would be a much better place. Remember, Jesus said you only needed to do two things: Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.