The earth isn't "full-bodied evidence of the creator". That's a human conceit. All the more reason that we must act to preserve it. There's no magic sky buddy to bail us out it if we don't. The blame and the responsibility are fully ours.

This is not religion, it's politics.

Get the UN out of our churches! Get it out of our Country!

There will be a civil war... I warn you of that!

Our children should not have to suffer UN propaganda.

All of this from a fellow whose "infamous", "lady-killer" uncle refuses to allow a wind farm to be built off the coast of his family's beach house/compound in Nantucket!!!!!

Ash - Looks like yours in the only sane and reasonable post so far...the rest being from right wing knuckleheads and overt racists.

The backyards, the biways and the very waterways of our beloved country have been a toxic waste dumping ground for business and industry for many decades - and Bush has undermined any restrictions that might have been in place by gutting the EPA and putting his own like minded idiots in charge - this has happened throughout every branch of government.

We've probably been set back 25 years with covert Bush policies and the broad agency-based infiltration of anti-conservationist, pro-corporate forces. McCain stands ready to finish the job, hand full of nails for the remaining coffins of the dead and dying - victims of the right-wing plague that still infests us.

Congress could be infected to the point where all hope is lost in the near term. This article may be prophetic.

1965 90% of the wealth of the nation was held by 75% of the people.

2008 90% of the wealth of the nation is held by 1% of the people.

For the past 10 years, (Newt's contract with America) evangelicals have run the country.

Correct, 2 + 2 = 17

Third world countries are characterized by strong religious faith. Religion is turning America into a third world country as fast as it can. "You ain't saw nothing yet" applies. Keep the faith for that's all you'll have left just like that's all they got where faith rules.

Oh noes! We'd better be careful, or young people will start protesting! We'll just feed them more junk food and Ritalin, and give them a new X-Box, and they'll settle down to being good little girls and boys.

We need more anger about the environment. We need people, young and old, to get mad at the corporations that pollute our air and water, and that strip the tops off of mountains. We need young people to get angry enough about the environment, then work towards solving the problems through science. We need young people to yell at their parents and grandparents about not recycling. Remember, that they're inheriting the world that we're now trashing.

Att: ATHENA;

Ye is an 'ECLAT{i}ON' Potentiate.

How is it that ye hath suddenly just blurted Brightly (rightly).?

HALLALUYA! Praise the Hol{i}No-Man!

OooooooPppppppSsssaaaaa;

Wow OBAMA said he ate or Eats "DOG"-meat:

ATT: PET-LOVER’s OF AMERiCA et al! Soo

Please, keep ye Pet DOG(s) away from OBAMA & Family! Train ye DOG to ‘Growl’ when seeing Borat Hussain Obama, in Turbine dress & or in a Suit or casual dress. If ye DOG can only smell him?

Also Cat's?

Wow! iMAGiNE 'Hussain B. Obama' eating ye DOG?

Does He & Michelle & Kid's Own any Pet's?

Originally posted July 21, 2008 10:38 AM. deleted, out of Jealous , unjustifiably Recently.

And we assume all the "tree huggers" stopped using toilet paper and toilets years ago. And they ride bicyles or walk to work or play in their bare feet in the nude. A good tree hugger would never wear any fabric since they all contain preservatives and stay-press chemicals. And they never watch unrecyclable TV sets or use unrecyclable I-Pods, I-Phones, Blackberries, cell phones or video game systems.

And are willing to give their homes/land back to the American Indians who ethically own the land that the house sits on to include Nantucket beach property.

And never, never would they use air conditioners or fans or chlorinated/fluorinated water, or take baths with surfactants and soaps that pollute our sanitation systems. And they cut their grass with non-powered push mowers and would never have an outside barbeque using valuable, polluting propane or polluting charcoal briquettes or ever play on "chem-lawned" grass or golf courses.

And one wonders what tree-huggers eat and drink considering all those preservatives and energy used to raise, harvest, clean, process and transport the food we eat.

And heaven-forbid if they take a polluting cruise ship, plane, train or car anywhere!!!

Then there is all that energy making and transporting beer, wine and booze that they never imbibe in.

Not to mention all the raw material and energy-sucking drugs, legal and illegal that "tree huggers" never use.

Bottom line: it appears Tim Shriver and rich enviromnentlal ilk have only one place to go, back to the caves and their excrement holes with hopefully leaf wipes.

@"Concerned":

Your willful avoidance of the point of this article and the entire environmental movement is chilling. Environmentalists are no longer, and have not been for a long time, "tree huggers" but are better described as "sustainability economists." The point isn't to stop using toilet paper, or any of the other inanities you spout, but to have only a sustainable impact on our environment and the Earth as a whole. The planet will never look the way it did 1000 or even 200 years ago, and 99% of us who see ourselves as environmentalists don't want it to! The point is, with our current policies and practices we're in a downward spiral that, unless we establish sustainable, zero net impact practices is likely to render the planet into a state hostile to the support of 6 billion people (and growing). I hope you don't want great grandchildren, because if your attitude remains the dominant force in our world odds are they will be among the billions of casualties wreaked upon our species. Thankfully, most of us are starting to wake up. I sincerely hope you will do the same.

DGreen,

Good post, I agree.

Pay no attention to CCNL. He posts garbage, and will never discuss anything with anyone, except to call names and reiterate his inane position with useless lists of historical nonsense.

The best CCNL post I've read. I like it.

The pollution will go away whether we like it or not. Who would want to use dirt like oil if there's a cleaner alternative?

These over-zealous green people like Al Gore and Catholic green movement are a bunch of idiots. We're like all riding in a bus cruising at an average speed and we all know we'll arrive to our destination in time but these guys want to run the bus at breakneck speed like CRAZED speed demons.

Wait until it's their time to drive and see how the bus will crash.

DGreen: @"Concerned":

"Your willful avoidance of the point of this article and the entire environmental movement is chilling. Environmentalists are no longer, and have not been for a long time, "tree huggers" but are better described as "sustainability economists." The point isn't to stop using toilet paper, or any of the other inanities you spout, but to have only a sustainable impact on our environment and the Earth as a whole. The planet will never look the way it did 1000 or even 200 years ago, and 99% of us who see ourselves as environmentalists don't want it to! The point is, with our current policies and practices we're in a downward spiral that, unless we establish sustainable, zero net impact practices is likely to render the planet into a state hostile to the support of 6 billion people (and growing). I hope you don't want great grandchildren, because if your attitude remains the dominant force in our world odds are they will be among the billions of casualties wreaked upon our species. Thankfully, most of us are starting to wake up. I sincerely hope you will do the same."

You have got to be a Pagan..........please stop your ranting about CCNL that was the besy post I have seen from him....it actually make sense!

The problem with young environmentalists is that they prefer hyperbole to fact. Instead of reading up on the cause they believe in and advocating realistic Green scenarios (which even the "fanatic" Al Gore does to an extent) they protest clean nuclear power, support energy-inefficient recycling programs in small communities, and buy hybrid cars which, in their production, create more greenhouse gasses than the most rampant of gas guzzlers. They eat organic vegetables which waste farming resources, install bamboo floors that have been soaked in formaldehyde, and wear organic clothing flown here from halfway across the world. Many young environmentalists like to see this as a black-and-white issue, which it isn't. It never has been. The enthusiasm is good, and refreshing - but if the environment is to be saved, that enthusiasm needs some education behind it.

Anon is obviously Spiderman2 - what other idiot could sound like such a self-righteous idiot? First the problem was dirt for brains and now it's dirt for oil - beware of a dirt fixation (there's another name for that).

Well, I suppose he meant oil shale, but who the hell really knows? Pollution is going away by itself. I like that part.

Oh ya, Spidey the anti-environmental engineer - Toot! Toot! Watch out for that mighty blowing smoke hole, pardner.

And right on dude - Al Gore is WAY behind the curve. I often think fondly of a White House occupied by Al Gore these last 8 years.

birdseyeview, between electric and oil or hydrogen and oil or solar and oil, who would want to use oil? We're all going to that direction in time. Your milk bottle is coming to you in a momnet so stop whining, idiot.

Tim, great article and what a great idea to involve our your in today's issus,

I am awed by your insightful wisdom. Your wife is lucky to have you as a companion to consult with.

thank you :~)

birdseyeview:
"Anon is obviously Spiderman2 - what other idiot could sound like such a self-righteous idiot? First the problem was dirt for brains and now it's dirt for oil - beware of a dirt fixation (there's another name for that).
Well, I suppose he meant oil shale, but who the hell really knows? Pollution is going away by itself. I like that part.
Oh ya, Spidey the anti-environmental engineer - Toot! Toot! Watch out for that mighty blowing smoke hole, pardner. "

deceitful practices are in the heart of a person.............remember the good in yourself, it is still there

birdseyeview:
"Anon is obviously Spiderman2 - what other idiot could sound like such a self-righteous idiot? First the problem was dirt for brains and now it's dirt for oil - beware of a dirt fixation (there's another name for that).
Well, I suppose he meant oil shale, but who the hell really knows? Pollution is going away by itself. I like that part.
Oh ya, Spidey the anti-environmental engineer - Toot! Toot! Watch out for that mighty blowing smoke hole, pardner. "

deceitful practices are in the heart of a person.............remember the good in yourself, it is still there

"deceitful practices are in the heart of a person.............remember the good in yourself, it is still there"

there is no good in a person that schemes wicked devices against someone else.

"For the past 10 years, (Newt's contract with America) evangelicals have run the country."

LOL Wow talk about paranoid

Anon - hydrogen seems unlikely and electric... maybe. Now do you see a particular decade when all of this will come to pass, in that murky crystal ball of yours?? I'm kinda anxious for that pollution to start 'going away' by itself.

Without the likes of high profile attention-getters & 'whiners' like Al Gore and other 'despicable' tree huggers that neocons love to hate, who'd be sounding the pollution alarm?

The USA is a laughingstock around the world at present, thanks to Bush and his unwillingness to even admit to the overwhelming fact of global warming, for about the first 7 years of his administration - we're see recent changes in White House thinking on that topic. Someone must have told him global warming was good for business - then the light went on.

When the money prospects are good enough, someone will roll out the electric cars - but which decade, oh mighty soothsayer??

Instead, we've got the neocon idiots salivating at the prospects of offshore drilling and drilling in Alaska - limited oil reserves at best, and about 10 years down the road at huge expense (probably taxpayer money at that).

I'd say that's a non-starter, but McCain is now staking a sizable part of his campaign on just that fantasy - and blaming Obama for single-handedly standing in the way of offshore drilling.
I'm catching a faint whiff of Karl Rove in the wings.

Talk about idiots - McCain is leading the way, and his followers are very close behind.

BTW, Your smugness is revealing....

Global warming is a scam. Now we are paying the price at the pump because of all the dupes that bought into it.

Make no mistake, Tim, the bottom line is not letting self-centered youth throw a temper tantrum and lash out at others because of their narcissistic frustrations. You can "ask for mercy" - it's your right under the first amendment. But when the "crashing pesticide plane" causes crop yields to crash and food to become scace, you'll have the deaths of millions to 'splain to Someone more powerful than the pampered puerile poets at your Uncle's Center.

birdseyeview, oil is a non-renewable source unlike hydrogen, electric, solar and wind. Simple science - everything that has limits will reach its limit.

There is a saying that one should be careful of what he/she wish for because it might happen. When oil starts to "dry up" or pass its usefulness, the end result might not be the one liberals were hoping for.

Worth a repeat:

All of this from a fellow whose "infamous", "lady-killer" uncle refuses to allow a wind farm to be built off the coast of his family's beach house/compound in Nantucket!!!!!

Anon - then obviously you need a government that takes the issue of resources seriously. Exactly what we haven't had for going on 8 years - the liberal view would be a search for alternatives while utilizing common sense in the meantime.

The GOP never has and never will get behind that idea - a political shell game is what republicans excel at. Real solutions, never. As it is, the petroleum industry and it's cohorts are receiving more immunity & exercising more power over government than any monopoly ever should - did I say monopoly? I thought monopolies were illegal? We might also take a look at media monopolies while we're at it. And that's not to say that democrats are not equally culpable.

Congress is largely disengaged from the public interest, and views the needs and wants of the electorate at a great distance, from high on Mt. Washington (D.C. that is).

Apparently there are exceptions to every rule when corporate/governmental interests meet.......

PS. The GOP should ever hope to field a senator half as productive on behalf of our common interests as Ted Kennedy....he will be sorely missed in the Senate one day. Hopefully one of his blood relatives with those same Kennedy genes will replace him.

So, how about it Tim??

Birdseyeview,

You must be kidding about "lady killer" Ted Kennedy??

CCNL - would I kid about Ted 'the man' Kennedy? I wonder how he stayed put in the Senate all these years without delivering for his constituents? Or is the problem with Massachusetts? A lovely state, I have to say. What I like most about Ted is the fact that's he's a liberal's liberal. Now that's my kind of guy - or gal.

Naw, all kidding aside, I think Ted is the last of a breed of rich good guys - personal foibles notwithstanding. "The best are often the least perfect among us" - I wonder if that's original with me?? Anyway, you can quote me.....

Birdseyeview,

Teddy continues to ride the coattails of his two brothers and the Irish/Catholic electorate of Massachusetts. His "womanizing" was in a class way above even that of Bill Clinton.

And protesting the construction of a wind farm off the coast of his beach house was simply another example of Kennedy "royal" arrogance.

Birdseyeview,

I agree wity you about Ted Kennedy, a flawed man who has done this country much good. As opposed to the knuckle dragger now in the oval office, a very flawed man who has done the whole world much harm.

Pay no attention to CCNL. He cannot be debated, and if you try, he will spam us with one of his infernal long lists of garbage. He doesn't seem to like anybody but himself and that Croissant guy, or however that is spelled...

Arminius, Arminius, Arminius,

And again what is your current belief system? Sounds a lot like "royal Irish/Catholic" with a heavy dose of Democratic party sexuality, "tree hugging" and brainwashing.

Hey, right-wingers, move over and be quiet. You've had your chance for the last eight years and you blew it. Now it's our turn.

CCNL - I gather you're no fan if Irish Catholics. And what brand of Catholic might you have been before you underwent the oft-described Crossan homogenization and de-mystification program?

A Crossanized Catholic is a breed apart, it appears. Oh I know I'll regret my comment - as Arminius says, we're about to be pasted and lambasted.

PS. If I had a flawless panoramic view of the ocean, I suspect I'd object to swapping out a magical vision of mother nature for a vast array of wind turbines. The rich guy on Martha's Vineyard always gets the bad rap - but hey, how about down the road at James Taylor's place? He's a big time environmentalist himself.....

There is such a thing as despoiling the natural landscape - a vacant salt marsh would work just fine, I'm betting - and the Kennedy mystique? We could use more of that in Washington these days.

What? No sex among the pines and no Democrats in a Crossanized world? Now that is a total sanitized bummer..... sounds like some Joe Lieberman would get behind.

Birdseyeview,

Twas a "Franciscanized K-12" Catholic. Great group of priests, brothers and sisters!!! Taught us how to think rationally using a good dose of science, history and common sense.

CCNL - I lasted through the 8th grade at St. Joseph's elementary - altar boy and all....escaped unscathed I might add.

I've always admired St. Francis - and his special way with animals. Imagine having your own pet talking wolf!

The Franciscans pulled me out of a jam one time - but that's another story and long ago...having escaped my problem, I immediately headed to Vietnam to prevent a recurrance. The rest is history.

Good for those young people. We adults should take a lesson. Things will never change, or even stay as good as they are, if we don't take some action. What is the old adage? "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got". I prefer, "If you can't change it, stop talking about it. If you can change it, stop talking about it." These youngsters are taking the first step - taking action.

As for the science-minded who refuse to see the universe as a perfect creation by God, think about laws of nature. Think about entropy. How can you explain entropy if you insist all the intricacies of life happened by chance? I’ve heard the God-can’t-exist-because-I-say-so scientists try, but without success.

Birdseyeview,

Most of the Franciscans have been "Crossanized" and there are few left to talk to paranormal pets.

More Kennedys and Al Gores please!

Yes Timothy Shriver, you might as well start preparing yourself for real politics in Washington. You have my secret prayers and secret support.

Elric66: ""For the past 10 years, (Newt's contract with America) evangelicals have run the country."

LOL Wow talk about paranoid

Not all Evangelicals are "bad", you however do exhibit "paranoia" of evangelicals, what as pity for a grown individual to be so scared or should I say "scarred, evangelicals are also nice people.

Please no more play boy politicians like Clinton, JFK and his brother Teddy. They play with our tax money. Not appreciated!!! And Gore used our tax money to "invent" the Internet!!!

CCNL - republicans don't play with our money...they hand it over directly to the uber-rich. Can we begin to imagine how much money Bushco has handed over in 8 years? Hundreds of billions, I should guess.

It must be said that the rich are much more creative when playing with our money than mere workaday politicians. They know how to make it grow - in offshore accounts, hedge funds, the corporate creation of government boondoggles and roads that lead nowhere, and the like.

In the black hole of an offshore account, the money actually does go somewhere - just not here.

Tim,

Who will be your VP running mate in four years? Visions of wisdom in the white house - how profound.

It is dangerous to trust the inexperienced.

Poets as young as 16, and I am a great admirer of poets, do not have sufficient experience to lead any revolution at all, especially a religious or environmental revolution.

We need not supress the poets nor hide them away; and to mock them would be crude and unjust.

But we need to temper our enthusiasm with insight and experince. One, after all, can only write with insight when one has experience.

I gravely doubt, as Plato did, whether young poets can contribute anything of substance or meaning to any public policy.

Only after the young poets pass through this sugary stage of idealism and enter the realms of philosophy, will their messages be worthy of investigation.

It is mundane to report that not until a grave disruption of people's lives, as the article mentions, is Mother Nature's importance eventually considered. But by then the keenest hindsight and the greatest Ode to Nature is, to me, nothing short of doggerel.

The author fails to note that during the Cold-War the poets and prophets had a far greater glimpse and grasp of envriromnentalism than the current poets.

Birdseyeview,

Please identify said rich people getting rich off of Republicans? e.g. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Tiger Woods, athletes on steroids, Russian "oilcrats", Saudi/Iranian/ Muslim "oilslicks"????

And if you want to complain about oil company executives, buy some stock in said oil company and complain to the board of directors who approve CEO pay packages. Or simply buy some stock and enjoy the rich dividends.

"And Gore used our tax money to "invent" the Internet!!!"

Yes, without our tax dollars to fund the Internet (as championed by Al Gore and others), we would not be treated to your rantings and ravings on a daily basis. Private industry could not have come up with the system of transport and protocols that we call "The Internet" without public funding through DARPA and the National Science Foundation. BTW, the "Al Gore invented the Internet" lie has been refuted by Vint Cerf and the other people that really DID invent the Internet.

CCNL - start with this word - IRAQ. Every dollar spent has been a dollar wasted - many of which went into the pockets of hundreds of private contractors on the Pentagon dole.

The most monumental money laundering scheme of all time, and all thanks to Bushco and friends. The taxpayer will never reap a single dividend from this vast and wasted expenditure of capital. Recovery will be long and difficult.

And that says nothing about the lives lost....

"If you ever wondered why so many people these days pursue a spirituality of the earth, at least part of the answer comes through these extraordinary voices."

Well, actually, 'Spirituality of the Earth' is what you get when you turn 'Religion Of The Cruddy, Sinful, Doomed, To-Be-Exploited-Whoever-It Hurts World *off.* Didn't just come out of nowhere to bewilder Exxon.

I dunno about the youth of right now, but I've been talking environmentalism since I was choking on leaded gas fumes as a youngling.

If people are *angry* by now it's cause people didn't *listen.* And still don't wanna.

I mean, hey, until it (as warned) resulted in *high gas prices* I couldn't go a week without someone saying, 'You worship the created instead of the creator. We must not be Godless commies and reduce the size of the bumper we stick the Jesus fish on. '

Not to remind y'all of that too much, since it's not helpful, but don't go coming back at 'angry environmentalists' just cause some Evangelicals have been claiming the 'moral high ground' of late.

Take the credit if you like. Just get it done.

But don't come back at us like that about it.

And, just on this:

"Begging mother earth to have mercy on her children"

The Mother has more mercy than you'd really figure on, but with Earth there's no thing about it being easier to get forgiveness than permission.

And that, by the way, Reverend, is how we got *into* this burgeoning mess... A whole civilization based around the notion that as long as you pray hard enough to an artificer God, you'll get out of the inevitable effects of your actions... All based on the idea that as long as you plead hard enough and 'be good' about arbitrary and unrelated things, then Daddy will make all your messes go away,

...then wonder why the future generations that the problems have been *insistently foisted upon so General Motors doesn't have to retool cause it might cut shareholder profits this quarter* ...are angry when you leave them with a mess.

You bet there's anger.

Now, I'll actually talk to the wind and pray for rain on behalf of cities that overstressed their water infrastructure for a few bucks. There's no 'Feel righteously-profitable today and beg for mercy later, and blame the queers if somehow your *irresponsibility* isn't rewarded,'

It's just we got a situation here. You bet I'm pissed, myself. Cause people wearing your callars and talking your lines were too busy telling people that hurting me would grant them 'forgiveness' for *your excesses* and you could dismiss anything said by 'angry environmentalists' as 'impious.'

*We're* the *adults* now. If you don't want the kids to be cheesed off, stop leaving them with a steaming heap and saying they should beg for mercy about the 'travails' *you* insisted upon.

And pardon the rant, Reverend, but *that's* Green.

With anger.

Would you like to supersize? :)

Paganplace, "
And that, by the way, Reverend, is how we got *into* this burgeoning mess... A whole civilization based around the notion that as long as you pray hard enough to an artificer God, you'll get out of the inevitable effects of your actions... All based on the idea that as long as you plead hard enough and 'be good' about arbitrary and unrelated things, then Daddy will make all your messes go away,

...then wonder why the future generations that the problems have been *insistently foisted upon so General Motors doesn't have to retool cause it might cut shareholder profits this quarter* ...are angry when you leave them with a mess.

You bet there's anger."

You are one bitter person. Get over it, it will do you a world of good.

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4,127 ( 3,360 combat, 767 non-combat) US troops and 86,136 – 93,995 Iraqi civilians

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

Recently, NK has started to destroy its nuclear weapon's capability.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

CCNL,

One definition of insanity and/or stupidity is trying the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. You endlessly spam your long lists that no one reads. Get the point?

CCNL - not to extemporize, but you miss the forest for the trees each time you post this itemized shopping list of terrorist-related events as a kind of Bush apologia.

Terrorism and Iraq were at one time two separate phenomena - but admittedly, not since 2003 or thereabouts, when we invaded and created a fertile breeding ground for terrorists and terrorism in every manner of speaking. BTW, the world is full of despotic dictators - shall we remove them all?

Or only the ones that have out-lasted their usefulness and then proceed to bite the generous hand that used to feed them? We don't take rejection well at all. It's happening all over again in Iraq as we speak. Sooner or later, we wear out our welcome.

I seem to vaguely recall that we removed our own despot in the good old USA way back when - that's the only way democracy really works. You've got to want it - democracy imposed from the outside is an exercise in futility at best....and it's not working in Iraq.

What we have instead is sectarian strife - and for many years to come. They want us out now so the power-elite Shiite can divide up the spoils.....did you miss that part? As you recall, it used to be the Sunni that were in charge.

Maybe the new guys will cozy up to Iran before it's all over - no wonder we don't want to leave. And Does McCain finally know the difference between Shiite and Sunni?

This is what republican-crafted interventionist policy is good for - replacing old dictatorships with new dictatorships. The GOP has done it enough times that they've got it down to a science - the bad kind.

I believe in republican DNA - Bush senior created the paradigm for Bush junior .... it's in the blood.

And again - what a monumental waste.

Brave Anonymous saith:

"You are one bitter person."

If you mean to say I will oftimes voice some justifiable bitterness, so it is.

I have plenty of Lil Miss Sunshine in me, really, but when 'bitter' is *damn appropriate,* I'm not gonna sugarcoat it so you can keep ignoring these things.

" Get over it, it will do you a world of good."

I'll be over it soon enough, believe me.

Whether it'll do the *world* any good, that's up to you, ennit?

But, hey, it's like clerical abuse, they'll be like, 'Your child is obviously distraught, maybe you should ignore the whole thing....'

It's like, 'Of course I'm distraught... did I forget to mention the rape and beatings in there, somewhere?'

Pish-posh, right?

Of course there's still a small measure of uncertainty whether or not it's a brilliant idea to keep poisoning ourselves while all this is going on, so keep holding out for that small possibility a lot of people are agitated for no reason.

Gods know it's nothing new.

You want less 'bitterness,' brave Anonymous, say, 'Well, sh**. I gues I should spend less time trying to make apocalptic prophecies self-fulfilling and a little more helping make a world someone can leave without thinking all their loved ones are left in the hands of a bunch of deathwish-worshipping consumerist *maniacs.*

The bitterness is sincere, but I'm not all that hard to please, really.

Maybe we could compare 'bittergates'

Maybe I got nothing on West Virginians looking around and saying, 'You know, since all the economy shut down around here and left us with a polluted miasma, we just can't afford enough ammunition to scare off those gay people wanting to get married...'

Paganplace: "Brave Anonymous saith:

"You are one bitter person."

If you mean to say I will oftimes voice some justifiable bitterness, so it is.

I have plenty of Lil Miss Sunshine in me, really, but when 'bitter' is *damn appropriate,* I'm not gonna sugarcoat it so you can keep ignoring these things.

" Get over it, it will do you a world of good."

I'll be over it soon enough, believe me.

Whether it'll do the *world* any good, that's up to you, ennit?"

Yes, I am brave, but what I said was "get over it, it will do you a world of good," meaning for you it would be healthy not to "harbor" bitterness. Nothing more.

I meant no harm.

PP, "But, hey, it's like clerical abuse, they'll be like, 'Your child is obviously distraught, maybe you should ignore the whole thing....'

It's like, 'Of course I'm distraught... did I forget to mention the rape and beatings in there, somewhere?'

Pish-posh, right?

Of course there's still a small measure of uncertainty whether or not it's a brilliant idea to keep poisoning ourselves while all this is going on, so keep holding out for that small possibility a lot of people are agitated for no reason.

Gods know it's nothing new."

Please, I never meant to add to your distress, I seek your apology.

I'm not gonna *apologize:* you wanna seek something, seek a justification for your sanctimony in action. Action besides queer-bashing and crying out for more of the same. You don't like me being bitter, you make my bitterness *irrelevant.* Don't go demanding apologies.

*sputter.*

I'm not gonna *apologize:* you wanna seek something, seek a justification for your sanctimony in action. Action besides queer-bashing and crying out for more of the same. You don't like me being bitter, you make my bitterness *irrelevant.* Don't go demanding apologies.

*sputter.*

Or was that more like you were talking about 'apologies' in the Papal or Roveian sense... "I'm very sorry for the distress Dick Cheney shooting me in the face may have caused. Can I kneel and kiss the ring of a guy trying to deny me my civil rights so he can say he 'sought my apology?' Are we *that* backwards at this point?

That'll be me in the Summerlands, I'll go to punch out my time card and I'll be like, 'Oh, *very* funny, did I volunteer for 'Evil Parallel universe' duty or was someone having a funny? :)

Arminius and Perspective,

Christians have been thumping the bible since the time of Constantine. Time to thump the reality of said bible and other more contemporary realities. Said thumping will continue. Deal with it or skip it. It is a free country.

CCNL

Try reading the book, "Evidence Demands a Verdict".

TC,

Some reviews of your suggested book: "Evidence Demands a Verdict"

from amazon.com

#1.
"From the title of this book, I suspected that it would offer actual evidence. At the very least, I expected some kind of argument. McDowell does neither - he just quotes a whole bunch of people that have come to the same conclusion as he has, and none of them offer evidence either. Hardly any of the book is even written by McDowell.
Even to the Christian, I would suggest reading a book that actually puts forth an argument - such as a theology book.

To anticipate the reader who will think I did not read this book, I did read this book from front to back - every page."

#2.

"How do I say this strongly enough? This book is to evidence what a loud belch at a formal dinner table is to prayer. Its title notwithstanding, it is not about employing the methods of evidence to examine fundamentalist Christianity's claims, but about using all available tricks, obfuscations and sleights-of-hand to support fundamentalist Christianity's particular and rigid world view. Tragically, that method is anathema to those of logic, reason and science, and therefore to the methods of evidence."

PP, "I'm not gonna *apologize:* you wanna seek something, seek a justification for your sanctimony in action. Action besides queer-bashing and crying out for more of the same. You don't like me being bitter, you make my bitterness *irrelevant.* Don't go demanding apologies.

*sputter.*

Or was that more like you were talking about 'apologies' in the Papal or Roveian sense... "I'm very sorry for the distress Dick Cheney shooting me in the face may have caused. Can I kneel and kiss the ring of a guy trying to deny me my civil rights so he can say he 'sought my apology?' Are we *that* backwards at this point?

That'll be me in the Summerlands, I'll go to punch out my time card and I'll be like, 'Oh, *very* funny, did I volunteer for 'Evil Parallel universe' duty or was someone having a funny?" :)

I meant I seek to apologize to you for causing you distress.

CCNL - then please heed your own advice.

To wit: Anticipate a variety of responses to the perpetual thumping of said CCNL realities. There are bound to be differing opinions in a free country. Deal with it.....

CCNL,

You obviously read the book with a closed mind. You are so wrong about the context, written by a data-driven man, who began by trying to prove the bible wrong.

TC,

Note the reviews of your referenced book came from amazon.com. You might want to check the comments of other readers on the same site.

Personally, I don't invest my time and money in books that get such poor reviews.

CCNL,

Check your math. 67 out of 96 readers gave positive reviews on Josh McDowell's book. Pretty good statistics with all the Bible bashers out there.

Only God can give the peace that passes all understanding.

TC,

Considering the number of "rednecked" Christians who buy Joslin "Josh" McDowell books, the favorable reviews are understandable. I look for independent reviews free from 2000 years of Christian brainwashing. Said books based on independent reviews appear to be nothing more than the bible saying what is in the bible is true i.e. no independent attestaions. Even the recent pope does the same "trick" in his new book.

The publishers of Josh's books also is a great indication of the "redneck" character of said books e.g. Thomas Nelson Publishers, Here's Life Publishers

Joslin being an active member is the Campus Crusade for Christ is another indication of orthodox Christian brainwashing.

One last question for you CCNL...

What is your definition of "redneck", and why all the stereotyping and prejidice against that group of people?

"redneck" definition from answers.com:

A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.

(in this case, Christian, bigoted, bible "thumpers")

Polly - thanks for your comments on the potential of teenagers to lead revolution. The word has been watered down these days such that several companies market their products in terms of revolution. And yet, some teens have made massive change.

That said, many of us are looking for some kind of a revolution. I'm not sure that the embrace of the environment is the best focus for it. A spiritual revolution would best focus on the Creator, not the created.

The programme of Jesus is utterly revolutionary. If we took Him seriously we'd see that first-hand (for those interested in considering taking Him seriously, His first recorded message in Mark 1 goes like this: repent and believe... come follow Me).

The early followers of Jesus left made such an impact that their opponents despaired that these Christians were turning the world upside down. That is revolutionist.

Jesus is more than example. His crucifixion and resurrection provide a way for us to be forgiven, redeemed, regenerated, and adopted into God's family - all revolutionary changes (we just need to repent and believe and follow Him).

Much grace,
StephenS2S

StephenS2S

Relion 101:

Part B- The flaws and errors of Christianity

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/ simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin/limbo!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

You know, Stephens, when you say this, it's nothing new:

"A spiritual revolution would best focus on the Creator, not the created."

This has been the simple do-nothing excuse for people to keep despoiling the environment for so long, I don't know how you expect it to be 'revolutionary' to keep saying, 'Well, if everyone's of my religion these problems we keep making worse will magically-disappear.'

Even if I was of your religion and *wanted* it to control anything, the fact is we'd be out of time to wait for such things. The reason there's a certain amount of anger out there is *because* people keep saying that and pushing the poison and damage off on the next generation and the next. Then in government the same people use the poor economy that results from their attitudes as an excuse to do even worse, and even less to help.

(And, ah, Ok, Perspective. Sorry *I* got so angry, then, over a mis-phrasing. Was busy having my own brush with mortality over some really stupid health care hangups, and really was *not* happy about potentially leaving a big mess behind cause I've spent the past years mostly trying to jump through the same hoops and suffering the same limitations just to try to maintain some potential of doing something productive, here.

Steven and his like may say we should be seeking 'forgiveness,' ...I think we should be seeking a world where there's less to be ashamed of.

Walking around 'rebuking sinners' and all, doesn't actually *help* anything. Maybe it's a Cold War relic where people can feel that being individually-saved from a world that might be destroyed any minute is an appropriate way to deal, but we can do better.

And I think that does involve tending to our relationship with the Earth and the things we make, first and foremost.

To reiterate:

And we assume all the "tree huggers" stopped using toilet paper and toilets years ago. And they ride bicyles or walk to work or play in their bare feet in the nude. A good tree hugger would never wear any fabric since they contain preservatives and stay-press chemicals. And they never watch unrecyclable TV sets or use unrecyclable I-Pods, I-Phones, Blackberries, cell phones or video game systems.

And are willing to give their homes/land back to the American Indians who ethically own the land that the house sits on to include Nantucket beach property.

And never, never would they use air conditioners or fans or chlorinated/fluorinated water, or take baths with surfactants and soaps that pollute our sanitation systems. And they cut their grass with non-powered push mowers and would never have an outside barbeque using valuable, polluting propane or polluting charcoal briquettes or ever play on "chem-lawned" grass or golf courses.

And one wonders what tree-huggers eat and drink considering all those preservatives and energy used to raise, harvest, clean, process and transport the food we eat.

And heaven-forbid if they take a polluting cruise ship, plane, train or car anywhere!!!

Then there is all that energy making and transporting beer, wine and booze that they never imbibe in.

Not to mention all the raw material and energy-sucking drugs, legal and illegal that "tree huggers" never use.

Bottom line: it appears Tim Shriver and rich enviromnentlal ilk have only one place to go, back to the caves and their excrement holes with hopefully leaf wipes.

With all due respect to the young victims of environmentalist indoctrination. Give me a break.

This planet will be here long after some asteroid or super volcano or mega tsunami sends mankind the way of the dinosaurs. What irritates me is the sure and certain knowledge that some of you poor misbegotten latter day zealots actually believe deep down in your heart of hearts that the planet will be better off without us.

Oh, *you* give us a break, Gary. That apocalyptic thinking is just an excuse to keep poisoning the future. Just cause you might get hit by a bus one day doesn't mean you disregard your health.

I've said it to you before. Yes, Earth would very likely survive our depredations, even if we don't, but that doesn't remove the reality that we threaten our own existence, as well as that of *many other species.

Really, it's unlikely it'll be as *tidy* as wiping out all humanity, just leaving the future in very unpleasant circumstances, maybe 'only' after mass suffering and death.

You're cool with that? Maybe hoping for that asteroid to make it all nice and religious for you?

Isn't it funny how our parents told us to clean up our messes when we were kids, yet neither of us learned to clean up our messes? And whose fault is that? A god or gods that may not even exist or the politician that is only one man and cannot clean up the mess every one of us makes or has ever made?

I doubt this will make any difference, but let me say this at least: I think it's about time we all thought about that lesson our parents tried to teach us about cleaning up after ourselves. Perhaps we can do a little better than they did and learn to clean up our messes. After all, if the point of rearing children isn't to teach them so that they might do better in their lives than we did in our own, than what is the point of rearing children? It certainly isn't just for the sake of all the toil involved, surely.

Just a little food for thought, so to speak.