Comments (15)

oh i don't know everyone takes all this stuff to seriously.I just dream of Timmy with the dark brown hair....................

Paganplace, some Nazis did practice a kind of occult neo-paganism. Paganism can be used for evil purposes by some as you know. There are good and evil spirits out there. It depends on who one worships. Occult is the worship of evil spirits for bad purposes.

Monotheism cuts through the vast spirit world, with good and evil spirits, and goes straight to God for God has power over all spirits.

Nazis merely used the Christian church to their political ends. All opposition was punished with death and yet many Christians put up resistance. Read about Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Or, if that's still too 'rambling and incoherent' for the theocratically-ambitious, 'This can't happen here cause we're the good guys' crowd, let's put it this way:

Hitler, as was imputed, didn't come to power on a gay 'Pagan' 'Socialist' 'Catholic-bashing' platform.

He was saying something else.

Lest we forget.

(And if Pagans were supposedly all for that sort of thing, would I *really* be here telling *you* about it? Gods.)

Hope that's not too 'rambling and incoherent' for you.

Let's spell it out in brief, shall we?

I don't care how 'good' you think the resulting 'grief' is, but a lot of people are so very willing to push the blame for *Nazis* off on gay people, cause someone'll say, 'The SA who got wiped out might have had some gay people in it,' ...that they'll say, 'The Nazis were gay... despite killing maybe millions of people *for* being gay in the holocaust.'

Or, say, 'Nazis seemed Pagan to us, so let's keep Nordic Pagan clergy out of the jails, so some some white supremacist kids can be spared their nefarious influence while they teach each other the Old Gods came off a heavy metal album cover and loved Hitler, even if it was all some bad scholarship by a cigar smoking spiritualist named Madame Blavatsky in the first place.'

Details. Yaknow?

" Good Grief:

"Paganplace, "Did I mention Hitler got in power as a 'Christian Values' candidate? When it became all about *him,*""

"What is your point?? Oh, I get it you are "bashing" Christians. Every Christian is just like Hitler, huh. Well news flash, all Christians are not and will never be like Hitler."

Bashing?

Or.... I could have been responding to earlier comments where people figure whatever you put a flag and a cross on must be OK. Then wonder how the Hel they got where they're defending torture in secret prisons and unaccountable camps and all.

Cause obviously, 'Christian bashing' is somehow 'fun' enough to spend my time talking here.

Riiiiiight.

""Anonymous:

"Hey PaganPlace,

Hitler was actually much more of a "pagan values" candidate - i.e. the unbound worship of nature and the will to power."

You could characterize it like that, for soundbyte purposes to suit agendas of your own...

Or... you could read his platform when he ran for office and justified his dismantling of the Weimar Republic: Wagner redressing 'Siegfried' does not Paganism make.

Nor does 'Kitchen, Kierken, Kinder,' (Kitchen, Church, Children, his idea of the place of women) Catholicism make.

But guess who was a bigger voting bloc?

"PS - your posts are rambling and incoherent."

My people call it 'detail.'

Hey PaganPlace,

Hitler was actually much more of a "pagan values" candidate - i.e. the unbound worship of nature and the will to power.

PS - your posts are rambling and incoherent.

Tim,
how many people died in Bay of Pig fiasco?
Did the young President elected in 1960 handled
our commitment in Vietnam properly? Why we were not informed for two decades that the Cuban missiles crisis was solved my making big concessions in Turkey ?
Let tell it like is about the young President elected in 1960.

Tim,

Great article, I have been a Catholic all my life and I am devoted to my parish. Yes, we have had our problems over the years but thank God we have priest that have stood by their faith and got us through it.

I say yes to your suggestion of revival!

Paganplace, "Did I mention Hitler got in power as a 'Christian Values' candidate? When it became all about *him,*"

What is your point?? Oh, I get it you are "bashing" Christians. Every Christian is just like Hitler, huh. Well news flash, all Christians are not and will never be like Hitler.

But this one thing I know is whoever you are and whatever you stand for is what I do not want to be! Man, you need to get a grip on reality. You exhibit problems with being antisocial, anti-trusting, and paranoia. So please do not impose your polluted thinking onto all Christians.

Christians may not be perfect but we stand for “good purposeful” living. We may not like the sin that “we” and others commit be we are not going to “roll” in bed with it, and we certainly are not going to turn our backs on Christianity because everything in our life didn’t go our way and other people hurt us. Immature children dwell on past hurts and those they can never fully forgive are “tormented” inside, never being able to fully trust, love, and give there’re heart to another.

I remember once an anesthesiologist was putting a family member of mine to sleep for surgery and she was petrified of letting go and turning full control of her life into another persons hands. Well this wise doctor told my Aunt, if you trust me with your life I will give my life today to saving yours. The tears streamed down my Aunt’s face and she held the doctor’s hand as he prayed for her. Following the pray she told him that she experienced a peace of mind that she had never felt before. My Aunt then told the doctor “I am in God’s hands go ahead and put me sleep and if I do not wake up it will not be your fault, it will be what God has chosen for me.

Till this day my Aunt is a changed woman, trusting, loving, giving, and married a Pastor helping other through their fears. You speak of things that you do not know. What kind of world would this be if everyone had there’re way got everything that they wanted in life? It would be utter chaos. So before you go and “condemn” all Christians remember all of us are not like Hitler.

"Give me a Break" says:

"Really? Well, Mao and Hitler had great "spiritual" political movements and they definitely kept the church out of the picture."

Ok, here's a break:

Hitler ran as a 'Christian Values' candidate.

That's part of why Prescott Bush bankrolled his party in the Thirties. 'Christian Values,' turned into... Something else.

The SA had some gay people in it. (Don't ask me what that was about) ... Till the Night Of Long Knives, ...and gay people got herded into death camps... That's where the pink and black triangles come from, you know? Old Berlin, turned into something else.

The SS and some stuff from it, had a lot of 'Nordic Pagan Heritage' in it, (mostly someone finding a way to bastardize Blavatsky's already-atrocious notions of 'Aryan heritage,' ) ...and they turned the people's desire for a heritage of their own... into something else.

Did I mention Hitler got in power as a 'Christian Values' candidate? When it became all about *him,* (and 'National Socialism,' which wasn't about a good health care plan, it was about allying corporations with a quasi-religious state and telling everyone to 'pull together' to serve that 'New World Order.' It became... something else.

Ireland didn't exactly go in for the goose-stepping, but from the point of view of a lot of folks there, anything that might get England out might help their kids. Cause of Catholics v Protestants. Thankfully, that didn't happen.

It wasn't about the 'Church being cut out,' ...it was about people being *used.*

Of course it turned into something else.

Even in Catholic school, I read all about the Holocaust, and the rise of fascism in a supposedly-democratic country... and was pretty much as dumbfounded about, 'How could this kind of thing come about? How could people let this happen?'

Can't say I expected to ever find out.

Gods help us, I think I've *seen* just how it can come about, just with people being smart enough not to twist their moustaches too much about it.

Maybe you really think it'll help the world to 'Put Jesus 'back' in government.

But if you have a memory, I ask you to use it.

Is that what you ask for, 'Break,' ...or has it already turned into something else?

Cause that's how the bad stuff happens. Someone makes it *easy,* sticks a cross on it, and when it goes wrong, says it's 'evidence' you should hate someone... then try and associate Nazis with *people they killed.*

Sorry for responding to someone who brought up Hitler, but, really.

Let's quote something you clipped the last line off, in a bit more of the full context, here:

"We’re way ahead of our leaders now, ready to respond to the call of conscience and come together in pursuit of the common good. We need someone who can do for our nation something akin to what Jefferson himself did: help us define and marshal the energy of our shared conscience. We care about the fate of our fellow human beings at home and abroad, we care about the fate of our planet, we care about the intolerance that is so unsettling and so dangerous. More than ever, we hunger for a larger purpose and a larger politics—a foreign policy not afraid to listen to others, an energy policy not afraid to demand change, an economic policy not afraid to promote fairness for the dis-empowered.

"Church need not enter politics in order for the spirit to be marshaled for the public good. We need a spiritual politics."

That's not saying, 'Rally round a flag and a cross,' ...It's saying, 'Let's use our spirit.'

Quite the opposite, in some ways.

"We need a spiritual politics."

Really? Well, Mao and Hitler had great "spiritual" political movements and they definitely kept the church out of the picture.

You seem to (rightly) reject religion co-opting the state to gain influence and power, yet you do not object to the state co-opting religion and every other aspect of civil society (education, health care, voluntary associations) for power and influence.

We do not need more centralized, bureaucratic, monolithic political movements or identities.

We need local independent associations, we need faith groups, humanist groups, regional politics, and organizations that are not directly connected to federal power.

To quote Charles Taylor (the philosopher) - we need unity through complementarity, not unity through identity.

Personalism, subsidiarity, and distributionism are good places to start.

Tim,

Love your article.........thanks for the wisdom you share. Keep writing your wisdom, its words to live by. I do admire your writings.

Yes, a revival of course. A revival of faith in individually enforceable rights. How about that, Mr. Religion? Here's what I just wrote to the director of the Harvard Joint Center on Housing. Consider it gospel:

Hello Mr. Retsinas,

Having read the latest HJC report on housing, I think the political climate is right to re-open the discussion of a Constitutional right to housing. It certainly needs to happen--housing is now simply being destroyed because there appears to be no Constitutional doctrine to stop it. This is irrational. Also, if there is one problem with HJC studies, it is that they do not evaluate their results in the legal context. HJC should do something to remedy both situations.

You should hold some sort of symposium with a title like, "Time to Revisit Lindsey?" A great deal of legal thinking has been done since Lindsey v. Normet (1972) said that housing only enjoyed minimum scrutiny (the lowest level of rights under the 1937 West Coast Hotel v. Parrish scrutiny regime). In this and other "social rights" cases at the time, the Court specifically said that it did NOT foreclose finding a higher level of rights if a better argument could be made based on Constitutional language. In addition, the experience of other countries with individually enforceable Constitutional rights to housing (such as South Africa), has demonstrated that the American enforceability phobia (would a right to housing turn the Court into the Executive branch in violation of the separation of powers doctrine?) is just that--a phobia, and has no basis in fact.

In researching the opposition to the Kelo eminent domain decision (see link below), I found that indeed new arguments have been found and they have developed as a result of a better understanding of the facts relating to housing. I notice there is no "legal affairs" department within the HJC. One of the results of the current crisis is that there is going to be much less discretion, in the political system, with respect to housing: politicians are going to lose control over the money. HJC needs to play a new, permanent role in seeing that this change occurs intelligently.

Nothing has greater potential for changing the way housing policy is made, than by instituting a ban on housing evictions. It would be a great change, but my research showed that public opinion is open to it and the law is ready for it. HJC ought to start looking into it--it's time.

Cordially yours,

John Ryskamp

AMAZON

1. The Eminent Domain Revolt: Changing Perceptions in a New Constitutional Epoch by John Ryskamp (Paperback - Nov 1, 2006)

That was inspiring. Just one question. While you were there in the Thomas Jefferson pew did you wonder why churches have altars? Seriously. Why do churches continue to have the means for sacrificing living creatures to God yet don't do it? Shouldn't altars be removed from churches, just to show we're modern and up to date? The "plate" replaced the altar a long long time ago didn't it?

I'm sorry I limited myself to just one question otherwise I'd ask why they pass the plate in churches? They did do that, pass the plate at that church as you sat there in the Thomas Jefferson pew? God is now appeased by money when God used to be appeased by sacrificing living creatures, people even?

Can God even be appeased? There I go asking still another question. Goodbye.