Comments (70)

"NON" should have been "NIL"

THOUGHTS ON THE PASSING OF TIM RUSSERT:

1. On his having died:

DE MORTUIS NON NISI BONUM - Ancient Latin saying.

2. On his career:

THE INFIRM GLORY OF THE POSITIVE HOUR - T.S. Eliot

3. On mourning his death:

AFTER THE FIRST DEATH THERE IS NO OTHER -
- Dylan Thomas, "A Refusal to Mourn the Death,
by Fire, of a Child in London"

4. On the meaning of life and death, for everyone:

LIFE SUCKS AND THEN YOU DIE - Modern American
saying

This was written by a parent grieving the loss of a child in Britain:

The Little Ship

I stood watching as the little ship sailed out to sea. The setting sun
tinted his white sails with a golden light, and as he disappeared from
sight
a voice at my side whispered, “He is gone”.

But the sea was a narrow one. On the farther shore a little band of
friends
had gathered to watch and wait in happy expectation. Suddenly they caught
sight of the tiny sail and, at the very moment when my companion had
whispered, “He is gone” a glad shout went up in joyous welcome, “Here he
comes!”

Thanks, anon.

I would like to know what the poem was that Maria Shriver read at the end of her talk about Tim Russert. I thought it was a very thoughtful and comforting thing to say to a family of a deceased person. How true - you leave one shore where people are waving good-by and you approach another shore where people are waving hello.

SOMEWHERE OVER THE RAINBOW/WONDERFUL WORLD

Performed by Israel Kamakawiwo`ole

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70tuTEnD9RI

Does anyone know who was singing "Somewhere Over The Rainbow?" I have heard it before but can't remember/don't know the musician.

Tim Russert's Memorial ends with the song "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" and a perfectly timed complete double rainbow over Washington to give comfort and grace to those still grieving as they left the Kennedy Center.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBddo1RGiJU

All I can do is sigh and say that, from what I can discern, Tim Russert seems to have been a man who did his best to do what he thought was right, and was close to the mark on many issues. Unfortunately, as are many "Catholics" who are Democrats, he may have supported (though I have only indirect evidence via the records of Senator Moynihan and Governor Cuomo for whom he worked) abortion and other activities condemned as sinful by the Church to which Russert professed his allegiance.

Robin – Thanks for getting back to me. I don’t consider what you said a mis-statement or anything meant to be negative. Still, even your thoughtful response suggests to me acceptance of a social convention that I’d like to see change. You say, “Tim respected everyone for their personal religious belief, whether it was another Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or other faith.” I don’t doubt that for a minute. I also don’t doubt something you didn’t think to mention - that Tim would respect good people knowing they did not have any religious belief. I think he’d continue to respect people even if they had discarded the Catholicism that he cherished so much.

I wasn’t hurt by your comment, I was just using it to do a bit of consciousness-raising. I’ve noticed that at the National Cathedral, the clergy there often (maybe always?) welcome people “of all faiths and of no faith.” My ears perked up recently when I heard Obama mention (paraphrasing) “both believers and non-believers – atheists and agnostics.”

To paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr., I hope that some day, we will judge people by the content of their character and not their religious beliefs. I bet Russert already did that and I bet you do too. I think the idea bears some repeating, so our language starts to catch up with our sentiments.

E-Favorite: This is the first opportunity I have had to read your post regarding my commentary on being Jewish. I was merely expressing the simple fact that Tim Russert was Catholic and I am Jewish. That was the simple statement I was making. My family considered Tim Russert a friend and I would hate to see Tim's family hurt by my mis-statement. Tim respected everyone for their personal religious belief, whether it was another Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or other faith. As I have said many times, "we believe in God, we just have different ways of going about our ways." I hope this response clears up any misunderstandings to you and any other readers who may have been unintentionally hurt by my comment.

Actually, Karen, I think Tim Russert or Tim Shriver or many other Catholics reading through these comments would get a kick out of the deck of cards/pack of cigarettes story I told. Certainly the people at that funeral (including me) thought it was a fitting and intensely personal tribute to the deceased. I wish I'd thought of it myself. It inspired all of us gathered there to reflect on the deceased's life and personality in a way not inspired by the rosary. Commending one's spirit to God is one part of the purpose of a funeral - another part is celebrating the person's life.

When you say: “Those who continue posting their self-centered diatribes and personal attacks on the faithful reveal their shallow lack of decency and self control” do you include Christians who are not Catholics, too?

You mention “…the outpouring of love and the many stories told of [Russert’s] character and kindness….”

While I don’t doubt he was a good man deserving of the praise he’s receiving, I’m sure that there is such an “outpouring” because he was a well-known media personality who is getting an inordinate amount of press coverage from his fellow journalists. I’m sure there are people just as “good,” in a Christian sense, as Tim Russert, who died the same way he did on the same day who are getting no attention at all, except from their loving families.

Tim Russert (like believers through the centuries) lived a life of prayer and devotion to God. It is evident in his death with the outpouring of love and the many stories told of his character and kindness. With grace he brought the essence of each of the beatitudes into his life- he "let his light shine before men that they might see his good works and glorify his Father in heaven":

MATTHEW 5:1-16

And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.

You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."

I wonder if E. Favorite realizes that Tim Russert was a beloved friend and public figure to many readers. He was a devout Catholic. This is NOT the time or place to vent feelings against religion and Catholicism. Those who continue posting their self-centered diatribes and personal attacks on the faithful reveal their shallow lack of decency and self control.

Holy Cow, this blog is not meant to teach you the history of the Catholic Church, nor about European political history or history of colonization. You must take the time to read up some more before posting rubbish here.

Holy Cow, may the Blessed Virgin Mary have pity on you and intercede with Jesus on your behalf!

You are so full of hatred you should not tell anyone you are a Christian and thus bring shame to Jesus.

Anon wrote "Jesus Christ did not preach hatred. "

True, but he exposed LIES. It's not hatred that I'm preaching, it is exposing LIES. There's a big difference between the two.

Anon wrote "Jose Rizal was sentenced to death by Spanish colonialists for political reason, not for a religious one."

You should read Jose Rizal's book how he illustrated who's really behind the power governing the Philippines in his time. There was no separation of Church and State in Catholicism. The one who welded power was the Catholic Church - The Seat of Satan.

Jose Rizal was relatively kind to it's Spanish secular government. It was the Catholic Church's meddling and unjust and satanic rule which he complained about. Almost the same situation with the French Revolution where the Catholic Church's excesses and unjust accumulation of wealth as well as crooked meddling forced the people to revolt.

E Favorite:

I wonder if Karen has ventured back here to see how the Christians are treating each other.

******************

Not in accordance with Matthew 5 -7 at all. Surely the fault does not lie with Jesus Christ and His teaching. The fault is not with the religion but in the way people choose to *ignore* its teachings. An atheist does not get to make brownie points on that.

I wonder if Karen has ventured back here to see how the Christians are treating each other.

Here's another touching true story about the rosary: A few years ago, when an very old woman died, she got the full Catholic funeral that she had bought and paid for many years before. There she was, lying in her casket with rosary beads intertwined in her fingers.

A family member remarked that she'd never seen the deceased that way in life, so she went out and bought a deck of cards and a pack of cigarettes and stuck them in the coffin. This was a much more fitting sendoff for someone who played poker in a smoke-filled room once a week for her entire adult life.

Thank you for your kind words concerning Tim Russert. I always enjoyed him on "Meet the Press', and especially during election years. Sunday mornings will never be the same.
I am not a catholic, but I have gone to the catholic church most of my adult life especially the last 15 years where I lived in Amberg, Germany. I also carry rosery beads with me that I purchased in Amberg at Maria Hilfberg Catholic church. I feel closer to God, and feel safer knowing I have them on me. I am praying for your Uncle Ted, as well, and thank you for sharing the story between the two of you , about your uncle and rosery beads. I will close,only to say that Tim Russert was one of the good ones.
Vicki Smith
Hilton Head Island , S.C.

Thank you for your kind words concerning Tim Russert. I always enjoyed him on "Meet the Press', and especially during election years. Sunday mornings will never be the same.
I am not a catholic, but I have gone to the catholic church most of my adult life especially the last 15 years where I lived in Amberg, Germany. I also carry rosery beads with me that I purchased in Amberg at Maria Hilfberg Catholic church. I feel closer to God, and feel safer knowing I have them on me. I am praying for your Uncle Ted, as well, and thank you for sharing the story between the two of you , about your uncle and rosery beads. I will close,only to say that Tim Russert was one of the good ones.
Vicki Smith
Hilton Head Island , S.C.

Holy Cow, I repeat, spewing hatred for Catholicism is not the best way to propagate your television Christianity.

Jesus Christ did not preach hatred. Read your Bible. Read Matthew chapters 5-7 as you were repeatedly advised to do.

holy cow:

Rizal would be the most idiotic person in the world if he really died a Catholic. All his life he has been writing about the ills of catholicsim and it's priests. That is a false claim and Catholcism has many of that. They ALWAYS MAKE FALSE CLAIMS.

Poor Jose Rizal, First they killed him then they made false reports about him. Where is he to defend himself? Just read his books. The book doesn't lie.

check this out :

http://emanila.com/philippines/2008/04/18/to-the-young-women-of-malolos/

***

Everytime a catholic baby is baptised, the message is this : "parents, this water is holy. After we pour it on his head, the child becomes blessed."

No message of Christ resurrection whatsoever. The worse thing is this : "parents, now that it's over, give me the money."

Not funny, is it? But that has been repeated again and again for centuries. WHAT A RACKET.

Worst if you tell them that some centuries back. You could be hanged for heresy. The only reason they don't do it anymore is maybe, they are not in power anymore. Give them back their golden age and you might see their fangs in action once again.

*****
A quote from Jose Rizal :

"Consider what is behind the masses, novenas, rosaries, scapulars, images, miracles, candles, belts, etc., etc. Consider well what kind of religion they are teaching you. I SHALL GLADLY ACCEPT THE USUAL REWARD OF ALL WHO DARE TELL OUR PEOPLE THE TRUTH."

And what's the usual reward Rizal was talking about? Death by firing squad. He died on that manner thru the prodding of the catholic church.

THE SEAT OF SATAN. There is no mistake about that.

June 10, 2008 4:35 AM

Anonymous:

Holy Cow,

Does information posted on a website maintained by Jose Rizal University sound credible enough?

http://www.joserizal.ph/lh01.html

June 10, 2008 4:51 AM

Anyone interested in Holy Cow's previous views on Catholicism are advised to read his comments on the Professor Stevens-Arroyo blog ---

Obedience and Pfleger: Tough love from the Church

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/catholicamerica/2008/06/father_pflager_and_obedience.html

Holy Cow you dodged the issue. The link of the website maintained by Jose Rizal University was posted which provided information about Rizal's life including his last hours as proof he remained Catholic till the end although he rejected some practices.

Jose Rizal was sentenced to death by Spanish colonialists for political reason, not for a religious one.

Do not repeat a falsehood regarding Jose Rizal's life to propagate your television Christianity.

Mr Mark-

Of course you did not like Russert !

I found him to be a great journalist that did his homework, and was even handed in his trapping these sleezy politicians on both sides. Maybe you don't like it because he trapped both Pubs and Dems?

His program was not a religious one- why would he put his faith out there? That was not his job........

You are negative person , my man.

Anon wrote "A shame that you should pretend you don't know -"

The Catholic Church makes all kinds of lies. Anything that comes from it, are peppered with lies.

Give me any doctrine Catholicsim believes and almost 100% of the time I can see an error or a lie in it.

Try me.

I was writing about the Catholics I know and being a Catholic that happens to be many including family and relatives. I ran into trouble in my family for refusing to recite the rosary.

My impression is that lack of Bible knowledge in Catholics could lead them away either to Bible focused Protestant churches (as happened in my own family) or to Islam.

Since there are over a billion Catholics in the world I'm sure there are plenty that each of you who mentioned my interpretation as being wrong don't know.

DC Realist:
ALL people in power have beliefs. Many of these beliefs (unlike believin in the Rosay) we could really do without: WMD, pre-emptive war, torture, rendition, the negation of global warming, stay in Iraq 100 years...

DC realist - don't worry - I think a lot of Catholics simply compartmentalize all the religious stuff and it truly doesn't affect their reasoning abilities in other areas. I say this as a former Catholic with experience compartmentalizing, when I didn't even realize I was doing it.

Right now, I’m coping with a close friend who is dying. She and some of her other close friends are practicing Catholics, who are also highly successful business people. Yet, they talk about getting messages from her once she’s in heaven and even speculate about the political debates she’ll soon be having with Tim Russert. I interpret it as a form of comfort during an incredibly difficult period – a socially acceptable way of softening the blow of this great loss.

I look forward the day when alluding to supernaturalism during stressful times is not commonplace, because such beliefs are not pervasive in the society and most people have not been indoctrinated as children in such beliefs.

Mr. Shriver,

It looks like your political dynasty of your family is finally coming to an end.... thank God!

Of course, thats one thing America needs, is more political dynasties.

I lost a lot of respect for Tim Russert after hearing that he believed all this garbage. Perhaps its better that someone who believed and practiced such superstition is not in such a powerful position anymore.

"Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death..."

How many God's do you pray to? I thought there was only one God and you pray to Mary also?

If you pray to Mary you are (therefore) polytheistic.

A Concerned Catholic:

1. The Rosary has to have Christ at its center (again, according to JP the II in Rosarium Virginis Mariae).
2. I (and the Catholic Church) agree with you, in that Jesus is THE way. The ONLY way.
3. I read the Bible daily--and I am not an extraordinary Catholic.
4. We Catholics don't "forget about Jesus"--Again, the Rosary is "nothing other than to contemplate with Mary the face of CHRIST" (JP II-RVM).

Again, my basic point is: A lot of people despise the Rosary for what they think it is, not for what the Catholic faith truly teaches it to be. And it is NOT mandatory for Catholics---it is absolutely optional. In fact, I think MOST Catholics don't pray it. But many of the best Catholics do.

Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death...Amen.What a great picture of comfort that is having the Mother of God embrace you at the moment of death, the great mystery of life.God bless you Tim.

To Concerned Catholic

Oh, baloney - plenty of us ordinary Catholics read the Bible - including the New Testament, which Russert evidently loved and believed in.

Using a rosary as a prayer mnemonic is a pleasant, lovely, meditative practice. At best, it focuses prayer; at worst, it's a charming nod to our illogical side - which is god-made.

Liberal and conservative Catholics and Protestants and people of all religions should stop trying to divine the state of mind or faith of one another - it's hard to pray when you're busy criticizing the guy next to you.

juan jaramillo:

The emphasis on the rosary has a streak of the Roman pagan worship of goddesses in it, a practice introduced by celibate male Catholic clergy.

Jesus in His lifetime never did mention His mother as being the way to God. He said clearly that He was the way, the truth and the life. He was crucified for our sins not Mary; He died for our sins, not Mary, He Resurrected, not Mary.

Ordinary Catholics don't read the Bible at all. They focus ALL their attention on Mary and seem to forget Jesus altogether. That is the danger of emphasizing the veneration of Mary and saying the rosary. Rosary is recited everyday but Mass is attended only once a week. Ordinary Catholics think of Jesus only during Mass but for the rest they focus on Mary. She is not our Saviour, Jesus is. Why the need for a roundabout way to Jesus.

Venerating Mary and seeing her as a role model is one thing but forgetting about Jesus in the process is quite another.

E-Favorite.
You are right---the Rosary is not essential for salvation. The Catholic Church does NOT teach that it is. Neither do we attribute magical powers to the Rosary. The essential thing for salvation is clearly explained by Jesus Himself---"I was hungry, and you gave me to eat", etc. He does not mention the Rosary there, that is true.

The Rosary, put simply, and in the words of JP II, is "nothing other than to contemplate with Mary the face of Christ". The importance of Mary is Monumental (WE Catholics believe)---the mother of God, said "yes" to the incarnation, was present at the foot of the cross, was present at Pentecost, and is, in Revelation, the Ark of the Covenant (and the only person, in the whole Bible, to be addressed, by an Angel, as "full of grace" or "highly favored one"). And STILL, yes, the Rosary is not essential for salvation. But a lot of its critics don't seem to know what we Catholics believe about it. And they attack from their prespective of what they think we beliebe. If you really want to know what we believe about the Rosary, read the document by Jonh Paul II, "Rosarium Virginis Mariae". Then you might understand, a little better, Tim Russert's "you got it".

Kenneth - the way I see it, by saying people will find out about the Rosary in Heaven, Juan is at least implying that you can be considered a good person here on earth without being Catholic or without appreciating the Rosary. On the other hand, he does seem to be implying that after death, everyone will be expected to understand the Catholic ritual of the Rosary. I wonder how he arrived at that?

As a former Catholic, I don't recall learning anything heavenly rosary usage. Maybe some people who attended catholic schools can fill us in.

Holy Cow, this link was posted on the Professor Arroyo Catholic blog when you first mentioned Jose Rizal. A shame that you should pretend you don't know -

http://www.joserizal.ph/lh01.html

Anon wrote "Holy Cow you might as well admit that Jose Rizal was a Catholic and died a Catholic."

In your dreams. You are crazy if you think Rizal remain a Catholic. Here are more of Rizal's quotes.

1. "that religiousness does not consist of long periods spent on your on your knees, nor in endless prayers, BIG ROSARIES, and grimy scapulars, but in spotless conduct, firm intention and upright judgement."

2. "They would be madmen were they to follow the light of another, only to come to a fall, and the father could unbraid them and say to them: “Did I not give each of you his own torch,”, but he could not say so if the fall were due to the light of the torch of him who fell, as the light might have been dim and THE ROAD VERY BAD."

And he's referring to the ROAD or DOCTRINES OF CATHOLICISM. Very bad road and it's a road to HELL.

3. "The wild man from the hills, if clad in a priests robe, remains a hillman and can only deceive the weak and ignorant. And, you will be lucky if the carabao does not become lazy on account of the robe."

SOURCE : http://emanila.com/philippines/2008/04/18/to-the-young-women-of-malolos/

Holy Cow you might as well admit that Jose Rizal was a Catholic and died a Catholic. He was sentenced to death by Spanish colonialists for political reasons. His criticism of some Catholic monks was actually criticism of colonialism and the role of some Spanish monks in it by preaching a servile attitude as Catholic virtue. He did not leave the Catholic church even though he did not accept all forms of Catholic spirituality. The last books he read were the Bible and Imitation of Christ (written by a Catholic monk).

Please refer to the Jose Rizal University website.

Juan,

Do you have any evidence for this "heaven"?

What exactly will people understand about rosaries in "heaven"?

Just wondering...

Nice story. A lot of people don't understand the Rosary. They will, when they are in Heaven.

A rosary?

You carry around a talisman?

You're superstitious fool, Tim.

KMCDade – Thanks for your comments – and for not shunning me. Regarding my comments to Robin, I think I understand – you’re saying it’s an established social convention? If so, I get it and I didn’t really mean to chastise Robin. I do want to challenge that social convention, though. I’d like the society to change, so that it no longer comes to mind, when discussing faith, that it is the least bit unusual or unexpected to appreciate people “despite” faith differences. For instance, when talking about a person of another race, you wouldn’t say, “He’s such a nice person, despite the fact that his skin is a different color than mine.” Actually, not so long ago, that was indeed an ok thing to say and a common way to think.

Right now, it’s ok for Karen, who’s probably a decent person, to suggest shunning an atheist who didn’t focus on the person being honored here, while not even mentioning a fellow Christian who not only didn’t mention the recently deceased, but reminded the still living of their likely descent into an eternal hell. I’m happy to hear you don’t share Jim Pools views – and were willing to say so here.

"May his wife Maureen and his son Luke be comforted in believing that the mother of God to whom he prayed was with him at the hour of his death. Amen."

For Timothy Shriver and all those grieving the loss of Tim Russert. I hope this will bring you comfort:

"Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw9rkTq9MUU

Its only when something is removed from our lives that we begin to truly appreciate the worth.

Tim Russert was a man of deep faith who never put that faith on display. He was simply walking it out every day. He never hid his faith. It was most evident in his love for his family and the personal relationships he established with so many people in his life. When trouble came and most people turned away from the arkwardness and the pain. Tim Russert would step in and offer his support. I know now- he is irreplacable. He will be missed by many for a long time.

Well, I'll comment on Jim Pool's post -- the obvious contradiction made me laugh out loud! Unfortunately, many Christians do believe this (although they often don't state it so bluntly). I am one of the many who DON'T think this way.

E Favorite, I don't think you were exactly disrespectful, but I did think your comments to Robin Rosenberg were sort of strange in this context. I get your point about the "despite our differences" -- it's not really necessary to say that -- but it seems to me that she was simply responding to a context in which most comments appear to be Christian. She was defining herself as a non-Christian. And given that this is in response to an article about Russert's faith, I think it's entirely appropriate for people to be framing their comments in that context. It might seem out of place elsewhere, but it's certainly fine here.

If anyone thinks I should be removed from this thread, there is a link right below every post that allows you to report offensive comments.

Karen - I see you decided not to give examples, as I requested, or to comment on the appropriateness of Jim Pool's post. I'm disappointed, but certainly there was no obligation on your part.

Now you ask me to leave and ask others to shun my comments.

I don't think that's a very Christian thing to do and have some knowledge of that, as a former Catholic.

"Faith defines us. Faith guides us. Faith teaches us. Faith helps us care for other. Faith makes us better. Tim Russert was, by his own account, a person of faith.

Judging from the response to his death, everyone around him saw that.

The lesson is this: if Tim Russert is made better by his faith, so are we. He teaches us that politics is important, but what really matters is a gracious manner and generous heart. He taught that work is important, but what really matters is an unshakable hope, the ability to call out the best in others. He was famous, but he taught us that what is really important is compassion for the poor, the hurt, the lonely and the outcast.

Politics is important. Even church politics. But if at the end of the day, the fruits of faith are not there, what good is it? What earthly good can we in the church possibly be if people aren't living a life of faith that makes them better, more hopeful, more caring people?

We pray for Tim Russert and his family and friends in the grief. May God's holy angels surround them with God's love and peace. May Tim's soul and the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace."

from the blog of Andrew Plus

While not a great fan of Mr Russert as a journalist - I felt he FAILED to ask the needed follow-up question more often than he did ask it - he was skilled at his job and kept his programs interesting.

I watch MTP for many years and was also a fan of his Saturday show which gave him a chance to go in-depth with authors, etal.

Perhaps the greatest complement I can pay Mr Russert is that I was seldom if ever aware "that Tim Russert was a man raised and steeped in faith—a faith that focused on service, a faith that is confident in God’s plan, and a faith dedicated to the love of peace and the work of justice," as he went about the business of doing his job.

That's gotta count for something.

"Faith defines us. Faith guides us. Faith teaches us. Faith helps us care for other. Faith makes us better. Tim Russert was, by his own account, a person of faith.

Judging from the response to his death, everyone around him saw that.

The lesson is this: if Tim Russert is made better by his faith, so are we. He teaches us that politics is important, but what really matters is a gracious manner and generous heart. He taught that work is important, but what really matters is an unshakable hope, the ability to call out the best in others. He was famous, but he taught us that what is really important is compassion for the poor, the hurt, the lonely and the outcast.

Politics is important. Even church politics. But if at the end of the day, the fruits of faith are not there, what good is it? What earthly good can we in the church possibly be if people aren't living a life of faith that makes them better, more hopeful, more caring people?

We pray for Tim Russert and his family and friends in the grief. May God's holy angels surround them with God's love and peace. May Tim's soul and the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace."

from the blog of Andrew Plus

E. Favorite:

Your posts display no interest in the life and recent death of Tim Russert. Your posts indicate you want to question the faith of posters to this thread. That's not appropriate on this thread. Tim Russert was a man of faith who has passed away unexpectedly and this thread is to remember and honor him.

There are several other threads hosted by atheists available to question religion and to post you're disbelief in God. Please remove yourself to those threads.

Should you continue to post- I suggest all readers shun your posts as I intend to do.

Thank you.

Hello, Karen - Could you give specific examples of what I said here that shows a lack of respect? I promise not to try to refute them - I just want to know what they are, in your opinion.

Also, if you can take a bit more time, could you give me your opinion about Jim Pool's post? Do you think it is a respectful addition to this conversation? Again, I promise not to refute it or argue about it with you - I'm just interested in your point of view.

Thanks

E. Favorite and others:

Have you no respect for the death of a man and those who are grieving his loss and come here to read and post?

Grow a conscience and take your petty arguments elsewhere on this board.

Something to contemplate in this time of loss:

"PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.

The church is Catholic, universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all.
When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that body which is my head too, and ingrafted into that body whereof I am a member.

And when she buries a man, that action concerns me: all mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated; God employs several translators; some pieces are translated by age, some by sickness, some by war, some by justice; but God's hand is in every translation, and his hand shall bind up all our scattered leaves again for that library where every book shall lie open to one another.

..No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Neither can we call this a begging of misery, or a borrowing of misery, as though we were not miserable enough of ourselves, but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the misery of our neighbours.

Truly it were an excusable covetousness if we did, for affliction is a treasure, and scarce any man hath enough of it.

No man hath affliction enough that is not matured and ripened by it, and made fit for God by that affliction.

If a man carry treasure in bullion, or in a wedge of gold, and have none coined into current money, his treasure will not defray him as he travels.
Tribulation is treasure in the nature of it, but it is not current money in the use of it, except we get nearer and nearer our home, heaven, by it.
Another man may be sick too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels, as gold in a mine, and be of no use to him; but this bell, that tells me of his affliction, digs out and applies that gold to me: if by this consideration of another's danger I take mine own into contemplation, and so secure myself, by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security.

--John Donne

Jim Pool - I like to think you're kidding and just trying to make Christians look bad, but I fear you're not. Do you see a contradiction between the existence of a compassionate Jesus and him sending people to burn in hell for not believing in him?

I do. I'm guessing some of the Christians posting here do as well and will come forth to say so, or at least to discourage this particular line of Christian thought. It's a far cry from the warm and fuzzies of the power of the Rosary.