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The sacred assignment of a true religious teacher is to tell, tell, and tell. True Christians leader are to follow Jesus’ example and tell the truth regarding Jehovah God’s purpose and standards.

1Peter 2: 21-22: “In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.”

Jesus denounced the religious leaders of his day because they were hypocrites and failed to live up to their role as true religious leaders.

John 8:44-47: “ YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, YOU do not believe me. Who of YOU convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me? He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why YOU do not listen, because YOU are not from God.”
In favor of popular morality, many churches have changed their message. Priests and preachers have given up teaching that God requires obedience. Instead, many teach that each individual must decide for himself what is right and what is wrong. Trying to gain popularity, some religious leaders claim that God accepts you no matter how you live. Such teaching calls to mind what the Bible foretold: “There will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled.”—2 Timothy 4:3
What does the Bible teach? It plainly states: “Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men . . . will inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10)
These religious frauds are also described as “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.” The Bible goes on to say: “Their end shall be according to their works.” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)
Their works include “loose conduct,” which is a brazen disregard for high moral principles. (2 Peter 2:1-3, 12-14)
An increasing number of religious leaders and their followers adopt—or at least condone—unchristian practices, such as homosexuality and sex outside of marriage. Please take a moment to compare these widely accepted views and lifestyles with what the Bible states at Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; Hebrews 13:4; and Jude 7.
Christians should heed the apostle John’s words not to take our religious beliefs lightly or for granted. “Do not believe every inspired expression,” he warns, “but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.”—1 John 4:1.
Genuine Christians are not influenced by the ebb and flow of popular views but cling firmly to Bible truth. Wrote the apostle Paul: “This is what I continue praying, that your love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment.”—Philippians 1:9.

I know that Catholics believe that gay people should be respected as people. They are not against them as people, just not supportive of their lifestyle.

Just a thought...

Leviticus is an ancient 'holy code' that was intended for the priests of that day, and which Jesus and Paul said did not even apply to people at Jesus' time...let alone to our time. Come one people, you can't look at ancient texts out of context and apply it to now. That would be kind of stoopid.

If you do insist on doing it, though, I hope don't ever feel the need to pleasure yourself, as it is forbidden:

"He spilled his seed on the ground... And the thing which Onan did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also" (Genesis 38:9-10).

Pretty harsh.

You lairs, claiming Jesus said nothing about sexuality. He clearly said,"I came to verify the old laws (Jewish) and don't come to change anything."

I always wondered why every passing day west is going shamelessly promiscuous, vulgar, obscene, abhorrent to morality or virtue and repulsive by reason of crass disregard of moral or ethical principles. OTHER THEN RUTHLESSLY VIOLENT AND BARBARIC TO OTHER RELIGIONS AND RACES!!

-Why kids are molested in there dark churches and convents by there priests. TURNED INTO MILLIONS OF GAYS OR ETHEIST, I GUESS BETTER CHOICE FOR THEM!
- Why children are molested by there parents (mostly adopted not blood related) in your society?
- Why every second women is raped in your society? Alone in USA more than 2730 women raped every single day.
-Why teenage girl’s pregnancy is out of control in your society?
-Why kids are not properly raised by there parents and why old parents are not been taken care by there kids in your society?
-Why your society is so violent and crime rate is so high in its civic fabric?

FIRST I WAS SHOCKED, IMMEDIATELY AFTER READING BIBLE REALIZING THAT ALL MY EYES GET WET, I PRAYED AND THANKED GOD AND ASKED FOR HIS MERCY AND FORGIVENESS, THAT HE SAVED ME FROM THE CURSE OF TWISTED LIES…….AS ALL THE ACTUAL VIRTUOUS VERSIONS, ALL THAT WE MUSLIMS KNOW ARE MOSTLY NOT AWARE OF THE WAY…VULGORLY THOSE HISTORY STORIES ARE TWISTED IN THE BIBLE.

I READ YOUR BIBLE AND CAME TO REALIZE WHAT KIND OF TWISTED VOLGUR ATRIBUTES YOU HAVE ATTACHED TO YOUR PROPHETS AND TO YOUR LORD GOD. YOU HAVEN’T LEFT ANYONE, FATHER TO DAUGHER, SON TO MOTHER, GOD TO SARAH, THERE BASTERED OFF SPRINGS. HAVE YOU LEFT ANYBODY THERE?????
AND THAT IS THE CURSE IN REALITY WHICH IS REFLECTING UPON YOUR WHOLE SOCIETY, BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!!!!!

VERY FEW EXAMPLES OUT OF THE BIBLE……..

PROPHET LOT AND HIS DAUGHTERS (YOUR BIBLE TELLS SLEEPING TOGATHER AND HAVING CHILDREN)

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Lets get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father

PROPHETS SON SLEEPING WITH HER MOTHER YOUR BIBLE TELLS-GENESIS 35

21 Israel moved on again and pitched his tent beyond Migdal Eder. 22 While Israel was living in that region, Reuben went in and slept with his father's concubine Bilhah, and Israel heard of it.
Jacob had twelve sons:

PROPHET ABRAHAM MARRIED HER REAL SISTER ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE

11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.

THE BIRTH OF ISAAC (LORD DID FOR SARAH, WHAT HAD PROMISED) ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE IT WAS NOT ABRAHAM
Genesis 21 (New International Version)

1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him.

Now I clearly understand that why our Quran tells that Bible or any other divine book is not in its original form and are all tainted by the evil doers. And that why we do not believe or follow them, though we do believe in all divine books including bible revealed in their original form but do not exist. AND WE ALSO BELIEVE IN ALL THE PROPHETS INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST AND OUR QURAN REJECTS ALL KIND OF VOLGARITIES ATTRIBUTED TO THEM OR TO OUR GOD. AND EXPLAINS AND TELL STORIES ABOUT HOW VIRTUOUS THEY WERE IN REALITY!!!!!

Thank you brother, the world is on fire from global warming and senseless warfare and they are worried about someone's sex life. Priorities please!

Read Romans 1:18-32 (concetrate on verse 28)

First of all, Jesus spoke strongly against sexual immorality, which in the context of Scripture, included homosexuality. Paul affirmed that homosexuality is contary to God's intention for human beings in Romans 1. It is sophistry to compare the Levitical prohibition on interbreeding of animals to the corruption of human sexuality. It is also irrelevant to Christians, since the Bible states clearly that Christians are not subject to the Law of Moses. Whether you believe the New Testament or not, it clearly states that homosexuality is a corruption of human sexuality.

Second, in genuine Christianity, divorce is prohibited except in cases of marital infidelity. The fact that mainstream churches have decided to allow it does not change this fact. The Kingdom of God is not a democracy. Voting to ignore the Word of God doesn't change it.

Third, the ordination of women is a disputable matter in the Scripture. However, one should note that ordination itself is a disputable matter. There is no indication of a New Testament priesthood in the Bible except the priesthood of all believers. And, in fact, the need for a human priesthood in the Old Testament sense passed away when Jesus, the High Priest, offered Himself as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of all people on the cross. No more sacrifice was needed. Therefore, no more human priesthood was required. For those churches who don't have priests but have pastors, one can make a good case either way for allowing women to be pastors.

There are enough Americans left who are rooted in the Word of God to protest the promotion of homosexuality as a natural and normal lifestyle. These Americans do not protest the right of fellow citizens to do what they want in their bedrooms. But they do protest the idea that the government should promote homosexuality and particularly, that churches should promote it.

And when I say this, I observe that *history is a litany of civilizations building great things, and people of an apocalyptic mindset taking their knowledge and privilege thinking that *they* are *too important* for the world to survive their mortal deaths.

Frankly, I observe that the civilizations that last just happen to have had that longevity while full of those folks that plan on being *back.*

Not who say the *world* must be purified of things that don't fit in order to acheive some 'eternal reward.'

People get hurt that way.

And it all starts again.

I'll just put this out there for LDS Mark, who says:

"lepidopteryx: I think you are confused...."

"We chose to come here in the pre-existence to prove ourselves."

Pagans do not believe that this life is 'pre-existence' or merely a place to 'prove' something for a later, unseen lifetime.

We certainly wouldn't take such an idea to believe it means we should hurt ourselves or others in this life for being different, as if there were any way we could conceive of that being helpful later.

Especially when you say:

"If we find ourselves outliving our family, it would please Jesus greatly if we were to help other families until our time comes."

If you think your God's great plan can absorb things like, oh, people that were planned for being *dead,* ...why not people being gay?

Maybe, part of what we 'damned queers' are 'here to do' is in fact to *help other families from the get-go.*

Far from being unnatural... That's what actually happens.

"Without god’s plan of family, that could not have happened."

I'd say, Who's limiting themselves here, if you believe that 'plan' is so monolithic that it only includes individual families who can breed in competition with each other.

But, really.... that kind of thing's not *our* idea of a 'plan,' anyway.

To us, *life is not a prequel.* It's not an 'entrance exam.' It's not a valueless thing whose only value is as something to be judged on before the real living starts.

We tend to think that thinking that way is the surest way to get people hurting each other in the name of 'higher causes.'

I mean, your beliefs are your beliefs, but, if you don't even believe this life is all that important, ...leave some choice for those of us who think it is.

I'm actually pretty tired of people who think they know all about 'God's plan' trying to talk down to me.

I mean, for a 'plan' that can be used to explain away just about any damn inconvenient reality, it seems awful short on accounting for 'racial and sexual and cultural variations' as well as 'Other people in the world you don't get to rule.'

But maybe that's nitpicking. :)

Still, when you Mormons come to the door at odd hours of the morning, waking me from often-must-needed rest, in order to say, "What are you gonna do when you die," all it does is stress me out about my dear one's lack of survivor benefits.

If 'the afterlife' were all about guessing which Christian sect to obey, I'd be pretty screwed, anyway.

Of course, my usual answer to 'What are you going to do after you die' is usually a long suffering, 'Prolly the same as last time, we'll see if I'm any smarter.' :)

Life doesn't wait.

Love doesn't wait.

Wisdom doesn't wait.

A soul can't run around the cosmos waiting for things to be important or meaningful enough to pay attention to.

Or, at least, you can't run around *this* life telling others to act as though you can.

Doesn't work that way.

Kindly let the rest of us live.

Mark:

I'm not confused. You said to Russel:

**You know that the center of God's plan is family.
It is the reason for and the purpose in life.**

I don't feel that my family is the reason or purpose for my life.

**Your family obviously means everything to you, but it does not end with the death of a member.**

My family means a great deal to me, more than any other temporal thing, But if they meant EVERYTHING, then my reason for living would end if they were no longer in my life.

**We chose to come here in the pre-existence to prove ourselves.**

Your theology, not mine. I didn't choose to be born at all. That was my parents' doing. And I don't beleive that I was born in order to prove myself. I'm not even sure what you mean by that. Prove what about ourselves?

**Without god’s plan of family, that could not have happened.**

Conception happens. Although I do recall a few shouts of "OH GOD!" shortly before my daughter was conceived, I'm pretty sure her dad and I were the only ones in the bed.

**After physical death, we can be reunited with our family.**

Again, your theology, not mine.

**If we find ourselves outliving our family, it would please Jesus greatly if we were to help other families until our time comes.**

I think it would please my gods as well, not to mention the people I'm able to help. Which would not be possible if my family were my purpose in life. Thanks for making my point so clear.

4th watch

Good point.
Jesus did clear up a lot of things when he was on earth.
You also need to consider that he led the Old Testament prophets, and his lead had to conform to the laws of that time until he came himself.

lepidopteryx:

I think you are confused.
Your family obviously means everything to you, but it does not end with the death of a member.
We chose to come here in the pre-existence to prove ourselves.
Without god’s plan of family, that could not have happened.
After physical death, we can be reunited with our family.
If we find ourselves outliving our family, it would please Jesus greatly if we were to help other families until our time comes.

Don’t limit yourself.

mark

Concerning adultery and stoning—
To know Jesus’ view on these, please read ~John 8:1-11~ That is the definition of a class act.
To characterize Jesus using O.T. law passages is exactly what the Pharisees tried to do they believed in the law (Mosaic) not the freedom to be found in Jesus.
Christ’s teachings are found on this side of the cross-- N.T. not in O.T.--the other side of the cross.
Mr.Balmer, like many jumps between the old and new testaments to shore up their view of a convenient sin.

LDS Mark:

As much as I love my family, they are not my reason for existence. Unless you count my conception being the result of my parents having had unprotected sex.

If my family were my reason for existence, then my life would have had no purpose without them. Had my daughter never been born, had I never met my husband, my life would still have purpose.

If my family were my reason for existence, then I would have no reason to go on living if something happened to them. Even if my parents, sister, neice and nephew, daughter, and husbamd were all dead, I would still find purpose in continuing to live.

My family is a great source of love and joy to me. They are not my purpose.

The passage about stoning disobedient children is Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Russell D.:

You know that the center of God's plan is family.
It is the reason for and the purpose in life.
There is a lot you could gain from scriptures in your family life.
It is not a crutch. It is guide to life.

mark

LDS MArk:

Nope, got no belief in Jesus.
I'd rather put my faith in myself and my family and my friends.

I don't use crutches.

By the way, i see nothing about stoning children in Leviticus.

Where do you guys get this stuff?

mark

RUSSELL D.:

You are forgetting another rule that Jesus has made, that we must follow the law of the land.
It was implied in his statement “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s” and it was also made clear in recent revelation.

Jesus recognizes the right of a country or king to make their own laws, and we are to follow those laws as long as they are morally correct. If they are not, we are to work within the laws of the land to correct the situation, as good citizens would do.

So your’s and other’s examples about stoning children are moot if you follow ALL of his laws. (Capitalization intended).

Again I stress my original point about not picking and choosing which of Jesus’ laws you will follow.

And, yes, I believe in Jesus.
How about you?

mark

Ooooh The Moderate. One with "special" wisdom. One with the "ability" to understand things no mere mortal can. And let me guess, you have a small following, please tell me its not your children?

Moderate,

Thank you for the suggested read. I can't say I've come to many firm conclusions regarding my religious beliefs besides the fact that you can't (in my opinion) study it without in parallel studying the history that surrounds it and the people that shaped it. It's very interesting to trace biblical fables and characters as far back as early Mesopotamia to recognize the thread that runs through these writings...and through those who've consumed them over the centuries.

I think that organized religion today, and always, suffers from the human tendency towards certainty and finality over learning and exploration. Certainly, this is not a fallibility only found on the "religious" end of the spectrum, but it is that group who is most organized and influential in many people's lives.

While I've shed nearly all of the rituals of my religious heritage (and have married a Jewish woman), I've come to believe that the times in my life where I went through those motions were by no means the times where I was most living the ideals...

I truly wonder what how my views will continue to evolve as I grow older.

Dear Rick,

"Correction: 2000 year old."

3,000 years old, actually. The Pentateuch was probably written down in the court of Solomon somewhere in the tenth century B.C. Harold Bloom believes that the "Book of J" was written by a woman. He makes in interesting case in the his eponymous "The Book of J". Very interesting read. He suggests that she did not mean to have it taken literally.

That would make the writing about 3,000 years old. An oral tradion of another couple of thousand years preceded this.

People like HEYYOU have not even begun to read it for what is there. Neither have its rabid opponents that you see here, many of whom function at the same level as HEYYOU.

Correction: 2000 year old.

Correction: 2000 year old.

"Hatred of God"?

I haven't heard of anyone here mentioning hatred of God (explicit or implicit), what I've mostly seen are people trying to interpret religious texts and teachings in the context of today's world and unfortunately finding little but arrogance from the likes of those who feel they are above reflecting on these things.

It's not about pointing fingers and calling names...

HEYYOU, I would appreciate your candid personal views on these topics, minus the need to paste in snippets of biblical texts and basically saying "there... see, that's what I believe"... When you leave your house in the morning, don't you experience the world and the people in it? Don't you find yourself surprised by how different people are from your expectations? Don't you ever reflect how difficult it is to truly know even people you believe you "truly know"? Apply those experiences to a God you know mostly through 1000 year old texts... to me, that's the "mystery" of it all and what makes religion something different than rote instructions.

As I said earlier, we wouldn't have been endowed with so much ability to think and question if we were not intended to use it...

"Randy Gay Angels" - great name for a band...

Actually I believe Mr Balmer is spot on. I’m certainly not the first to ask the question but I have yet to hear anyone really answer it. I’ll throw it out there again I suppose…

If Christianity can evolve past biblical authority calling for stoning adulterers and bratty kids, burning witches, condoning slavery, treating women as property, and wearing mixed fabrics, and so on and so on, then what is the hang up with homosexuality?

Anyone?

Good grief Mr. Balmer, the play by play account of your spiritual superiority down at the Holiday Inn certainly is impressive. Also the way you prefaced it with
“Thy Kingdom Come” book really is an awesome display of Christian humility.
Don’t blame the Protestants for your current state of flummox concerning homosexuality, your interpretation of scripture is more blameworthy.

HeyYou:

I have told you more than that. All you need to do is read.

But apparently, that is too hard for you. I guess we'll pick this up in the morning.

And "FIRE!"? What the heck? Are you Beavis or Butthead now.

Russell D, what you have told me so far is you believe nothing and immorality is subjective.

FIRE!!

Imagine one day you're sitting there with your power-hungry friends, trying to come up with something that will feed you what you crave, power.

You need people to subjugate, how are you going to get a willing bunch of patsies to agree to this?

Let's try this: what are the primary driving needs humans have? Food, oxygen, water ... the need to procreate and have children - to have sex. The human really can't resist these urges, they're in the brain.

So let's go with sex - hey, the average human male can't seem to think about much else without sex creeping into it.

So you make sex out to be an evil thing, something the sinner should feel guilty about. Guess what? Now the male subjugate feels guilty all the time. How is he to deal with this?

You offer forgiveness.

See the cycle? sex == sin == guilt == need for forgiveness.

Of course the subjugates will all argue about the number of angels dancing on the pin head, but you basically have your power.

And here's your chance. :)

HeyYou:

Yea, I am still waiting on something of substance from you, but all I am getting is "Blah, blah, blah"

We'll not mention how conspicuously-different I've been treated by the likes of you, Arminius, since 'coming out' here. (Not that it was a big secret. But.)

You call yourself an 'ally' but all you do is impugn my character for not *appreciating* the societal abuse that you, by your own admission, didn't have the courage to stand up to.

Now you say, "Oh, I *would* have stood up for you, but I decided it wasn't worth it. So shut up and say I'm an ally."

I've often referred to things said by your Jesus I find admirable, and to my own ancestors who tried to make good on it. This doesn't mean that I'm obligated to tell you 'you're really all right' for letting the injustice happen, then telling me I'm supposed to accept your definition of me as a 'sinner' or subject to your "Lord" just cause you *claim* to be "on my side."

Still haven't seen you call a Christian homophobe on nothing, yet.

Hi Rick,

Glad you liked it. I'm thinking of writing a book of Bible Stories as they probably happened.

Maurie

All this hatred of God coming from homosexual folk who worship homosexual man and woman. Your god is really flawed LOL!

HEYYOU,

If I were to read the (sins of the) "flesh" as a more broad description of human fallibility and the all too common human tendencies towards selfishness, closed-mindedness, hatred, dishonesty, etc... rather than the very limited view that this refers to sexual acts... I think I would come up with a much more consistent, understandable and frankly relevant interpretation of these passages.

The moment I attempt to put on my "sex" lense and cite them as proof of Biblical intent in this area, they lose their relevance and frankly don't make sense.

I'll admit to not knowing EXACTLY what the message here means...but doesn't the exploration and consideration of the alternatives, breadth and possible meanings of these sorts of things bring you closer rather than further away? Doesn't it leave you feeling like you're a part of a faith, or is it our duty to line up like sheep? In the early centuries of Christianity, didn't followers actively debate and interpret scripture? Is this no longer necessary?

At the end of the day HEYYOU, we all make our choices and we all will have to deal with whatever those choices bring us... none of us really know what it is (or whether it is anything), but that's another debate.

Best to you, try sometimes to imagine that you don't have the perspective you actually have...

" Arminius:

PaganPlace,

"Why is it a pity that I said it is an inside joke? I understood, I laughed."

It's a pity that so few have a sense of humor about what they think is the world, in other words.

"Yes, I have heard Lep and Wiccan say good things about the Lord I believe in. I don't remember hearing this from you."

That's pretty interesting, given I seem to remember saying a couple good things today.

Not that I'm obligated to.

Actually, it seems we were friendly enough till you started assaulting my character for disagreeing with you, all the while saying, 'I'm an ally, you should take this crap from me.!'

"If I had known where to go to tell someone about my outrage about Falwell & Co after his comments, I would have done so."

The next person you met would have sufficed.

Things like that get around.

Barring that, the next gay or Pagan or feminist or liberal person.

Or the media.
That would have worked, too.

At the time I was busy worrying if the Muslims up the street were gonna get lynched.

" But it would have fallen on deaf ears. I don't enjoy trying to converse with brick walls."

Are you calling me a brick wall, or asking for forgiveness?

Maurie, Thanks for the chuckle.

I actually think that while this was written I'm sure somewhat in gest... it MUST cause any thinking person to stop for a moment and think about how different reality often is from how it is recorded by those who experienced it... or even more so, how different reality was from how it was described by those who DIDN'T...

"Randy Gay Angels"... I am going to try to find a use for this phrase in everyday life... this is damned funny, but hopefully not "damning"...

Rick

Near as I can tell, this all hinges on the concept of biblical infallibility. Not being an expert on such matters, I went looking for the basis of this belief.

And I was appalled. No, not a strong enough word. Aghast. Horrified. I'm still working on a word strong enough. I was actually expecting the circular reasoning: "it is because it says it is", except that it doesn't even say that, at least not directly. At least the argument "It's God's Word; God is perfect, therefore the Bible is perfect, too" only falls down for being circular, or based on an a priori assumption, take your pick.

But the one that really rankles me is "if you can question one part, then you can question any part, and thereby justify anything." This is supposed to be a revocation of doubt (some idiot's definition of "faith" apparently), but in fact it is a revocation of reason, equating mere interpretation with faithlessness. No one is capable of figuring out that an idea is bad on their own apparently! What a relief! For a minute there it looked like we'd actually have to THINK! The Creator is truly benevolent! Think I'll go watch some TV or something.

I swear, these people act like God gave them brains in an attempt to trip them up. No contradiction there, right?

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the
law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was
through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful
flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to
the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not
subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh
but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does
not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

heyYOU:

You may have God in your little corner of the world, but, your knowledge of English, in a word, sucks.

JG

I agree with Norrie and others.

A very nice essay, Professor Balmer.

Norrie - All religious organizations would take a great leap forward toward peace, harmony, and enlightenment if they simply adopted The Ham Sandwich Principle.

Perhaps the Ham Sandwich Principle is another of the Pearls in the parable by Terra Gazelle.

Of course, I'm a Contrarian, so I want too point out that pearls are actually a defense mechanism that Oysters and other Mollusks use for sequestering irritants.

Finally, here is a little story about Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah:

“But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.”
-Genesis 19:5-8.

In Sodom, Lot is visited by angels and warned to get out before god destroys the town in fire and brimstone because of all the sodomites (Hence the name Sodom). Meanwhile, a gay mob shows up at his door and demands the angels for a gay train. Instead he hands over his virgin teenage daughters (a substitute for the angels) to placate the gay mob. This really pisses the mob off because they don’t want nubile young virgins, but randy gay angels they can have depraved sex with. Unfortunately for the gay mob, these are not randy gay angels, and are thus smoted. After some prodding by the angels to make haste, Lot flees Sodom with his family to avoid the coming destruction.

According to Genesis 19:26, on the way out of town, God turned his wife into a pillar of salt for looking back toward Sodom. What I always wanted to know was how Lot knew that his wife got turned into a pillar of salt, if she was following behind him like any good dutiful wife. The only way he would have known is if he had turned around too, yet he managed to escape her fate.

I think what actually happened was that when his wife complained outside of town about having to leave the cozy village of Sodom, Lot probably clobbered her with a big rock of salt and then said god did it. Most likely, his wife liked Sodom because all the men were into having gay sex and basically left her alone. Her husband obviously left her alone too, because she was an old hag.

After having clobbered his wife, he impregnates his daughters because they got him drunk and took advantage of him in a cave. In reality, Lot, even though he was a god-fearing man, now had two beautiful virgin teenage daughters instead of an ugly old wife. If his daughters did get him drunk, it was probably so that he would fall asleep and leave them alone. Instead he was probably one mean-ass drunk who self-medicated to keep the demons at bay that apparently afflicted the lineage of Abraham with mental illness. Not only was the lineage schizo, but their god was too. (e.g. Abraham almost barbequed his son because god told him to in order to test his love for god. Moses is plagued by a god who loves him and then tries to kill him, gives him visions of burning bushes, laws, a bad sense of direction, and finally discourses on what to do to non-believers).

Regardless, Lot was going to have his way and history is written by the victors; i.e. his daughters got him drunk and took advantage of him. I’d like to see how that defense would fly in a modern court of law.

Lot. "But your honor, they got me drunk and took advantage of me."

The Judge, looking incredulous, asks, "How old are your daughters, sir?"

Lot. "Well, you know how young teenagers are, they are wanton and can't be controlled. Besides, they are pretty girls, don't you think, and virgins, not like their mother, that old hag. Perhaps if you spent some time with them, they might change your mind?"

The judge furrows his brow, thinks a moment, then says, "I'll take it under advisement. Send the young girls into my chambers, so that I may more thoroughly know their intentions.

Didn't finish this thought:
Note, this is not a knock on Christianity--- it is a historical fact and in many I think is a challenge to those who call themselves "religious". In order to truly appreciate your faith, you must have the curiosity and strength of character to question its tenets, put its teachings into context (especially when every word of its teachings was penned by men, and every word was vetted by the leaders of an empire) and receive its messages through those lenses.

Or perhaps... recognize the "political" angles which have ALWAYS been at work in organized religion.

Aren't you bored just taking instructions verbatim?

I grew up in a very "religious" setting and spent my years in Catholic school, but as I have said to many of my friends I felt the best "teaching" I received was the love from my family. I felt that this reflected in a useful and practical way the true teachings of the church, which seemed to me to be, at its core, teachings of love for others.

As I've grown older and become much more interested in the history of the church and religion itself, I've unfortunately come to view the "organized" faiths as much more reflective of human weaknesss, power struggles and aligned more with political issues than the very core teachings of the faiths they profess to represent. It was no accident that Christianity probably survived as a result of a shrewd emperor co-opt'ing its messages, melding them with Pagan rituals and consolidating power through them. Note, this is not a knock on Christianity--- it is a historical fact and in many I think is a challenge to those who call themselves "religious".

My biggest disappointment with these posts is the fact that many of you who so strongly condemn appear to have truly lost your humility in the face of debate, and have taken positions that seem to imply that you KNOW exactly what "God" wishes you to think and how to act (or how others should not act).

I don't know how exactly how God wants me to live, but I do think I know the guidelines... they are the simplest of axioms. I also know that I've been given the intellect to explore, question and doubt. I fear the day that I become so hardened that I cannot imagine an alternative viewpoint.

And by way... this is not relativism. It's using the brain you were given to ask questions, learn and reflect. We would've gotten much less powerful instruments if all we were required to do was read a set of instructions, ask a priest or shaman what they mean, and then go on and live them to the letter.

I'm sure some of you with all the answers haven't spent nearly as much time protesting wars which are killing our citizens or questioning sanctioned torture... or have you decided that those are acceptable in certain circumstances? Is this relativism?

Dear RB:

“So, either Jesus was having a "thing" with Mary Magdalene or else he was gay. Either way, the Catholic church is screwed, philosophically speaking.”

Why does it follow from the premise that Jesus was not porking Mary Magdalene that he is gay?

Your logic is right up there with the old Syllogism:

“Some dogs have spots.
My dog has spots.
My dog is SOME dog.”

While there is some evidence suggesting the Mary Magdalene was an apostle, that does not close the case on her getting down with Jesus.

Wiccan,
Hey You reminds me of an old joke..a Pagan dies and finds himself at the Golden Gates(Not Micky D's)...in front of the gates is an old man in a robe. The Pagan looks around and walking up to the Guardian of the Gate say," I think I've come to the wrong place, this looks like heaven and I am Pagan." The Guardian said," well there are some who call this heaven and me Peter." "Come on in."

The Pagan walks in the gates and sees rolling hills and streams of fresh flowing water...cats chasing butterflies and dogs laying in the sun. People are walking hand and hand, children are chasing each other...and groups of people were sitting at the feet of men and women as if being taught and a large stag was grazing on the green.

The Pagan sees this and says," Wow is this Summerland?" The Guardian says," Well some call it that and me The Sage." Just then there is a big Boom and a puff of smoke raises into the distance. The Pagan looks worriedly at the Guardian. The old man says..." Well if you go over the hill there and off past the temple you will find the drum circle, they should be starting soon."

Just then a man runs up and grabing the Guardian with a terrorfied look hollers," I am a sinner, a sinner..how will I pay for my sins here..I must suffer, I must suffer.."

The Guardian grabs the arm of the Pagan and runs back from the horrified man...just then the earth opens and screaming and lamenting is heard from beneith the earth, streams of sufferic smoke rises...but the look on the man's face was releived as he falls into the firey hell below.

The ground closes and the sounds are again children laughing and the murmer of the stream.

The Pagan looks at the guardian and says..." What was that???"The Guardian says..."Well some Christians just love to suffer."

Jihadist, Blessed be! glad to see you here also.

Hey You,
My name Terra is an online name..my real name means Beautiful Peace...I figured that was a real misnomer. But Terra says what I hold as sacred. The Gazelle has a special meaning that just does not translate for the masses.

As far as my gods..they answer me each day. I live, I have enough to be happy and live well...without having too much so that others have less. The sun smiles on me and the moon fills me...heck I am a happy little Witch..
As far as other Wiccans comeing to my aid if needed...they have. As I have. We are a community.

It means less on what Gods you choose to call on...then what you have in your spirit. We are warriors...as well as healers.

terra

Dear LEPIDOPTERYX:

“I've come close to CTS emailing Falwell (when he was alive) Robertson, Wildmon, Swaggart, etc. challenging some the horrid things I hear them say in the name of a man I very much admire, even if I don't worship him.”

I would add Jim Baker to that too. No surprise that they did not respond. They are into making money and exalting themselves.

There are a lot of horrid things said in the name of Jesus Christ by these clowns. Being a member of a Christian community, I just don't run across these kind of people much, so I wince when I hear of some of their outrages.

A standard comment for these kind of people is: “If you are persecuting someone in the name of Jesus Christ, you must seriously ask your self if that is who you are actually following.”

They often don't even understand that they are persecuting people out of their own self righteousness. It is worth pointing out to them that they are usurping God's role in making the judgments that they do.

Jesus also said:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

So HeyYou, I recommend that you go back and read the bible about a hundred more times. All of it; not just the parts that make you feel superior to your fellow men and women. Honestly look for the beam in your own eye, and only when you have found some try to help your fellows.

Always ask yourself if you would like to be judged with what measure ye mete, and if you would like to have it measured to you again.

Wiccan,

You got Irish in you? No wonder I like you! My father was born there. We were expats from Border Scotland, ca 1630. I am Celtic to the core, in my soul anyway, because there is a distressing amount of English in there. Hell, nobody's perfect.....

Merry Meet, Jihadist! Hope the worlds of family and finance are bringing you joy.

Guess I get a little mouthy now and then, but it plucks my last nerve when someone screams hate AND calls himself a Christian. My sister is a Christian, and fairly or unfairly, I hold all Christians to her standard. Christians and Pagans have coexisted in our family since at least the 1700s, and if a bunch of ornery Irish can get this right, I can't see why it's so hard for everyone else.

Like John Lennon said, "All you need is love." :-)

So, either Jesus was having a "thing" with Mary Magdalene or else he was gay. Either way, the Catholic church is screwed, philosophically speaking.

So, either Jesus was having a "thing" with Mary Magdalene or else he was gay. Either way, the Catholic church is screwed, philosophically speaking.

Brambleton: I see Christian men greet each other regularly with a hug and hold each other accountable for their sins - something I rarely, if ever, see with my non-Christian friends.

Holding someone accountable for their sins in your view is a good thing? First, in my experience, no one has a clue as to what is a sin and what isn't. Going by the bible, there are lots of behaviors that are routine today but would have landed someone in jail 30 years ago -- and maybe even dead 100 years ago. That's part of the problem with religion.

As HeyYou spouts hate in an attempt to demonstrate the love of Jesus, I tend to conclude that the bible is a pretty poor guide for moral values as well as how to live.

Isn't it ironic that most majority religions view BELIEF as the key incrediant to a proper life. Don't worry so much about how you treat people so long as you believe, that's the real deal.

And since HeyYou has dismissed the old testament, I guess he couldn't care anything of the 10 commandments. Now how are we supposed to understand the importance of the 10 commandments?

Here are the old rules that God thought so important that he wrote them himself. Man, would I love to see the penmanship on those babies -- it would be interesting to analyze them.....Maybe God made loop de loops which would mean he's very creative. Or maybe he cut off his letters indicating a sterness.

Now of course there certainly are some problems with the 10 commandments. Let's start with thou shall love your god. Now really, how much love must there be if he has to command you to love him? I don't know, it just seems to lose something if I have to be commanded to love something. Love me you puny human. Okay, boy do I love you God.

So, if I understand this, believe and love God and the rest of that stuff, like graven images, well they are not that important.