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To E Favorite: Thank you. To the whole world: Just because someone knows God's Name doesn't mean they know anything about God. Not only is it sad that a lot of people that call themselves christians think that God is a loser, but what is even sadder is that a lot of them don't want Total Victory by the Triune, Triumphant God. If you listen to what a lot of people say and write, as long as they go to the "good place" that is fine with them, mighty christian of them, you may have read that the pharisees and scribes of Jesus's day didn't recognise themselves either. We happen to be in that time and as it says many people will be saying, "Lord, Lord", and poor Jesus will have to vomit them out of his mouth saying, "I do not know you", which seems pretty obvious that the people saying, "Lord, Lord", are acknowledging that Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews is God Incarnate. Think about it. I for one am glad that God came up with a Plan for all of His children, humanity, to be with Him in the Kingdom of Love, or if you prefer the Kingdom of God, they are one and the same. The Plan is referred to as the mysterious Plan of God. God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, a lot of people will be trying to hide behind their religion. We all are judged, but God is Not the hate-filled, egomaniacal piece of garbage that a lot of people seem to think that He is. He is Pure Love and that Pure Love will either caress you beyond belief or burn you. You could even say burn you for eternity but thank God that when the seventh day gets here eternity is over. We happen to be in the sixth day and night is coming, be ready. I don't know how much longer the sixth day will last, I am just a messenger, the New Testament Moses. I don't think too many people listened to the Old Testament Moses, please be ready. I think it also says that people will be marrying and given in marriage, buying and selling which means every day life will be going on and then wam-o. Well take care, remember God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Just getting back to this conversation now,
Grateful to Thomas Baum for his detailed reposne and disappointed that no Christians gave their thoughts on it.

GARYD

I would say that your knowledge of the ideas behind the the "darks" is less than complete. Your original comment was that we have no way to detect the the darks.

I pointed out that there are a number of observations that fit the "darks". Observations that can be repeated and verified. The "darks" are a hypothesis, and open to revision exactly because there IS doubt. That's a big part of what drives science. Things can be disproved or radically altered by a single, repeatable observation. The same cannot be said for faith. Faith, by it's very definition implies a lack of tangible evidence.

As for how you found out - U.S. News??

To E Favorite, Mr Mark and TJ thank you for asking the questions. To Mr Mark and TJ thank you for the replies, we are all in this together, all of humanity. I know that I have an awesome responsibility and I take it very seriously. What I wrote about is some of what has happened to me but what is important is that God's Plan is for All of His Children. Thank you TJ for the well wishes, I very much appreciate it. To the whole world, like our brother, Jesus said, "Be Ready". Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

GaryD,

I'm tired of watching you fumble around with this and make a fool of yourself, so allow me to explain it to you.

You wrote: "Then how did I find out about Dark matter and dark energy as Concepts to explain the fact that there simply is not enough detectable energy and matter to explain the fact that it all holds together."

You're half right. You're right about dark matter and the problem that hypothesis attempts to solve. You utterly do not understand the problem that dark energy solves though. It's obvious in your poorly informed ramblings on the topic.

The universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Simply put, the universe was expanding yesterday and it is still expanding today. However, it's expanding faster today than it was yesterday. The dark energy hypothesis attempts to explain just why that might be so. You see, dark energy has nothing to do with holding things together and has everything to do with spreading them apart.

You're welcome.

Still waiting for the Xians/religionists to weigh in on T Baum's testimony.

C'mon, Tim, the various Anonymi, The Moderate, Jason, Cthe CNL, Speed 123, Francis Collins and the rest. One of your fellow Xian travellers has written an opened-hearted account of how he met the Trinity & Satan face to face and in person, and how he is the NT Moses. Surely you're not reserving comment on something this earth shattering!

Still waiting for the Xians/religionists to weigh in on T Baum's testimony.

C'mon, Tim, the various Anonymi, The Moderate, Jason, Cthe CNL, Speed 123, Francis Collins and the rest. One of your fellow Xian travellers has written an opened-hearted account of how he met the Trinity & Satan face to face and in person, and how he is the NY Moses. Surely you're not reserving comment on something this earth shattering!

Don't study much astronomy?

Then how did I find out about Dark matter and dark energy as Concepts to explain the fact that there simply is not enough detectable energy and matter to explain the fact that it all holds together. One should note the other idea in competition seems to be some sort of variable gravity phenomenon.

Obviously something that we cannot see or detect is holding our universe together. The models say so. However the idea that it must be one or the other or a combination of these two ideas is simply an assumption and quite possibly an unwarranted one.

Thomas Baum wrote: "My job is to tell the whole world that God's Plan is for all of His children, which is all of humanity, to be in the Kingdom, I look past heaven."

Thanks for sharing your story and answering my question Thomas Baum.

Thomas Baum also wrote: "It is a simple job for a simple person, I am the New Testament Moses, the Old Testament Moses happened to mention me, it came as quite a surprise to find out that I am me."

I wish you peace and health sir.

Dear Thomas Baum -

Thanks for relating your story.

I would be interested to hear what your fellow Christians on this blog - including the On Faith columnists - think about your story of meeting the Trinity and Satan. I know what I think about it.

Any Xians here care to weigh in on Mr Baum's testimony?

On 1-28-2000, God the Father came into my heart and I didn't know that it was Him until I knew it, that might sound strange but it is kind of hard to put it into words. It was then that I knew that the whole bible is real even though there is still plenty in the bible that I have not a clue what it means, if I need to know, God will somehow let me know. God the Father is Pure Love, He didn't say a word to me, He didn't have too. On 1-29-2000 at St. Luke's Church in Ocean City, Md, God the Holy Spirit came into my body and it was really different and I just knew that it was the Holy Spirit, at the homily the Priest asked the congregation what the readings meant and I stood up and opened my mouth and the Holy Spirit said thru me, "Worship God in Spirit" and I just stood there and thought either the priest ignorned me or did't hear me so the second time I said it. To tell you the truth I still am not exactly sure what that means so I'm trying to do the best that I can. During Communion as I walked up and got near where It was being given out, the Holy Spirit revealed to me that It really was Jesus, not by sight or anything, I just knew, I didn't even receive It, I actually thought that everything was kind of fulfilled, hard to put into words, but lo and behold my job, so to speak, was just starting. A couple of hours later God allowed satan to come down and I guess the best way to put it is to battle me for 24 plus hours and about the first 6 to 6 and a half hours all knowledge of Jesus was wiped out, it was a really tough 24 plus hours, God ended up getting me to Perry Point VA Medical Hospital on the morning of 1-31-2000 unconscience in an ambulance and when I came to I was on four points, if any of the other patients or the Ladies that were working there that morning see this post and care to comment please do. It was on four points that I experienced hell, the hell that the bible speaks of and death, not physical death but spiritual death. To say I was devastated would be to say the least an understatement, for people that believe in nothing more than atoms, chemicals and electrical impulses and the like, well that would be the whole explanation. When I was battling satan I did hear his voice and he is not nice at all and he sure is upset, well that is his problem, what he said about me did how some truth to it, but partial truth is still a lie. By the way, not at the time but now I thank God for what I went thru for one thing I can give people a definition of hell; it is worse than you think because it is worse than you can think and you build it yourself and you do not know you are getting out. If you noticed earlier in the post I said satan came down, well like in the book of job satan had to get special permission to do what he did and I tell you sometimes during that 24 plus hours when it got too intense, someone stepped in to help me, who I don't know but I am thankful. This is just some of the things that have happened to me. If I didn't know I was chosen by God I would, to say the least, have a hard time believing it. My job is to tell the whole world that God's Plan is for all of His children, which is all of humanity, to be in the Kingdom, I look past heaven. So many people that call themselves christians if you listen, as long as they get to the "good place" well that is good enough for them well it is not good enough for God. If ultimately only those that repent were in the Kingdom, God could have yelled that out but He has a Plan, a lot of people that repent don't even know that they did and a lot of people that thought they repented didn't. Only God Knows, you can't fool God, may as well be honest with Him and yourself. God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, saying you are a christian does not mean that you are, it is not magic and if you say the right words doesn't necessarily add up to a bucket of snot. God wins Total Victory, satan loses, the captives shall be released; those in hell, the dead shall rise; those in spiritual death. Nobody gets away with anything, we all get judged for what we do, it is important why we do things. We are invited to be active participants in God's mysterious Plan of Salvation. God will declare Victory, but He always sends a messenger first. It is a simple job for a simple person, I am the New Testament Moses, the Old Testament Moses happened to mention me, it came as quite a surprise to find out that I am me. Sometimes a sacrament might take a few decades to kick in, strange world we live in. Also the total devastation of the world is coming too, it is all written down, God chastises those He loves, Be ready. I do not hold it against Mohammed that he was deceived, do you? I repeat, the True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds not religious affiliations or lack thereof. Jesus is who He said He is and He won the keys to hell and death and will use them in God's time. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

As a follow up Mr Baum, what, exactly, is it that your god wants you to do?

Yes, Mr Baum - where did you meet the Trinity & Satan? Forgive me if I refuse to take your statement at face value.

Thomas Baum, Where did you meet "the whole Trinity and...satan?"

Reality is more than it may seem on the surface of things. God is real whether anyone believes in Him or not. I shouldn't have to repeat this but God is not male or female or an it, but I do use a pronoun which happens to be of the male persuation. One day everyone will find out that God is real and much, much nicer than a lot of people that call themselves christian even want Him to be. I need no historical evidence of Jesus being who He said that He is, I have met the whole Trinity and I have also met satan, who is not nice at all. Just trying to do what God chose me to do. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Dear Tim -

I have to agree with E Fav - it looks like you're engaging in the same behavior you deride.

E Fav and I have both looked at the supposed "historical" evidence for Jesus and found it totally lacking in depth and believability. Face it, the ONLY quasi-contemporaneous non-Biblical references to Jesus are the forgeries in Josephus - and they're 4th-century forgeries. That's not proof at all.

As far as Jesus fulfilling OT prohecies - that's an even more-specious proposition.

First - many of the "prohecies" fulfilled by Jesus were NOT prophecies to begin with in the OT! They were simply verses of an OT story, but the NT writers were such hacks that they went ahead and stamped their "thus did Jesus do to this to fulfill the scriptures" BS on verses that were NOT PROPHECY and, more importantly, were NEVER INTENDED to be fulfilled by a Messiah.
(See here: http://tinyurl.com/2csm46 for an excellent analysis of this hackdom exposed. Keep reading to learn how many of the details of Jesus' life were copied from OT stories and how - in some cases - said details are the result of poor translation of the OT Hebrew.)

Second - not all of the Gospel writers bother with the prophecy fulfillment BS.

Third - the one who does is doing so by retro-fitting OT verses to fit the Jesus narrative...and - as I point out above - is making a mess of it, to boot.

BTW - if there is any "darkness that men love," then that darkness is surely the stupidity and inhumanity of the world's religions, among which Christianity is one of the biggest offenders.

GaryD, Let's see if I have this right ...

God can't stand before us and announce himself because we, his creations, won't believe him unless we have him (the trinity is true or it isn't) helping us to believe.

Oooook. Sure thing.

TJ nothing God proves himself to whom He will by means of the heart changing power of the Holy Spirit. Absent that overwhelming evidence no one will believe the one true and living God even if he stood before them and announced himself.

For human Nature will always resist ultimate authority for ultimate authority demands more of Human nature than human nature is willing to give unabetted by the Holy spirit.

Neither the god character of the old testament, nor the Jesus character in the new had any problem whatsoever demonstrating that they were in fact who they said they were.

What do you suppose has changed Tim?

" It is not at all unusual for people to ignore the facts in order to pursue their own agenda."

Tim - it looks like that's just what you're doing.

There are people who think we did not land on the moon. There are millions who think that Bush carried out the 911 attacks. The are millions who think the Jews carried out the 911 attacks. There are millions who believe the two gun theory of Kennedy's assassination. There were 12 jurors who thought O.J. was innocent. It is not at all unusually for people to ignore the facts in order to pursue their own agenda. There is plenty of historical data to back up the claims of Jesus Christ, for those who want to look dispassionately. There is plenty of prophesy in the Old Testament to back up the claims of Jesus Christ, for those who want to find it. Many of us who believe in Christ do not enter the enchanted forest to do so. The evidence is there. Jesus knew people would reject the evidence because this is a pattern though out the Old and New Testament. No matter what God does people always want just one more sign and then they will believe. If only God would speak to me personally, then I could believe. If only God would make me a millionaire then I would believe ... and all kinds of things like this. Jesus said: "And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God." - Jesus Christ

Both Scientists and Theologians should be humble to the investigation of the phenomenon. Both studies will eventually lead to the truth which is GOD. While science explores nature; theology like philosophy explores phenomenon which is outside the components of physical nature.

Both science and theology is infallible!

Early science and theology once worked together to explore the realms of truth; Plato! As a Catholic, I appreciate everything that science has offered to mankind and will continue to do so. Science cannot disprove Christianity and likewise. Why would anyone accept arrogance on the behalf of science and religion is beyond me!

Dark matter is evil. Don't look! Turn the telescope off, fall on your knees and pray for forgivness!! This is clearly a sign from god!!! The end is near!!!!

GaryD,

Building on what person unknown said ...

http://www.spacetelescope.org/news/html/heic0709.html

1 Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

(((((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll-n-Wrap, Mitt ROMNEY, For Prez, 2008 Ya! )))))))))))))

Garyd

Since you apparently don't do a lot in astronomy, I've pasted a summary of the lines of evidence that leads to the idea of dark matter.

Please note the use of the word hypothetical, which in science means that the question is still open and can be changed by further observations. You will also note that this option is not part of religion.

"In astrophysics and cosmology, dark matter refers to hypothetical matter of unknown composition that does not emit or reflect enough electromagnetic radiation to be observed directly, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter. ...observed phenomena consistent with dark matter observations as the rotational speeds of galaxies and orbital velocities of galaxies in clusters, gravitational lensing of background objects by galaxy clusters such as the Bullet cluster, and the temperature distribution of hot gas in galaxies and clusters of galaxies. ...has measurable effects on the anisotropy of the cosmic microwave background. All these lines of evidence suggest that galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and the universe as a whole contain far more matter than that which interacts with electromagnetic radiation: the remainder is called the "dark matter component".

GaryD when you say, "a lot of people who call themselves Chriatians haven't figured it out yet either" I wonder if you think those Christians are going to roast in hell if they don't figure it out before they die.

Mr. Griffith,

How do you propose to examine that which currently remains undetectasble by any of our instrumentation?

Yoyo you are wrong as Usual. A faith I never brought to the table will not save me God alone saves whom he wills faith is the result of a salvation already received.

But don't feel too bad a lot of people who call themselves Chriatians haven't figured it out yet either.

TDAY:

In the natural world homo sapiens breed according to natural rules. Early man was hiding from early woman but she found him anyhow.

Reproductive processes are first mental, they see each other for easy example. The female human controls. When there is an abundance she demands and gets as much as he, the closest male regardless of age at the time, can deliver.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sex There's a little more at that web site than "the bible is a hoax"

If you don't believe me, ask the pope who said, "...the insatible carnal appetites of women." That was said *after* the plague had desimated Europe and European women were "naturally" replinishing the population. Religion perverts natural law,, in the name of god, scaring people with imaginary supernatural beings and claiming to be in touch with them.

Marriage is less than 10,000 years old. The human race is at least 65,000 years old. What did they do for the first 55,000 years?

TDAY:

Respectfully, there's a 3,000+ year old picture of hell at http://www.hoax-buster.org Middle ages crooks only improved on it, Eurpoeanized an African myth. Revelation con man gave it 6 more heads. Where it came from has been identified. It's a hoax! That says it all.

Prostitution is much older, BGONE....

Any true scholar of any writings will know that the modern concept of hell that is 'taught' by the 'ministers' you tout...came along in the middle ages..at the very earliest after the time Constantine took the helm.

People in the times just after Christs death knew what the words gahenna, tartaroo et al meant and what they referred to. They werent dumb. They didnt make drawings of horned red creatures using pitchforks on people. That came as man became more 'enlightened' (laugh)

Between all the misunderstanding of true Christianity herein and beyond...it is no wonder the world is filled with religious confusion.

I have to take exception with posts that ay that we know nothing - all is speculation. Actually, we know quite a lot about the universe and we are learning more all the time.

The assertion that there is no evidence for dark matter/energy is simply incorrect. There is evidence for the existence of both. Now - have we figured it out? Nope. Will our perspective on these change? Yes, certainly. If not guided by rational thought, why not just stop with "It's pixies" and be done with it? Revisions in science are known as progress; in religion, heresy.

The religious expect belief in God to get them everlasting life,instead of death.
Because such an idea defies credibility,faith has to be dragged in to give the idea some sort of plausibility, some sort of respectability.
The faithful even come to see it as a wonderful thing to suspend disbelief and make the leap of faith.How beautiful.How trusting.How holy. How virtuous to be able to turn a blind eye to reality and one's senses,and buy into magic.
It brings a tear to my eye.

I guess most of my life I believed in God and that Jesus is who He is, but for a goodly portion of my life I believed that Jesus died for everyone except me, well close but no cigar so to speak. It is really a shame that so many people that call themselves christians don't have a clue what it means to be a christian. It is to be thankful, it definitely doesn't mean that everything in this life is going to be honky-dory, it may be just the opposite. The so-called gospel of prosperity which is really big here in America is really a crock. There are people that are christian in their heart that don't believe in God and there are people that are not christian in their heart that do believe that Jesus is God Incarnate, which one of these do you think that God would smile upon, I will give you a hint, God is not an egomaniac like a lot of people think that He is. When Jesus was up on the cross, He said, "Father forgive them", them means us, us means humanity, you people that call yourselves christians maybe should actually take that to heart, as I have said before God is a searcher of hearts and minds not religious affiliations or lack thereof. Any belief that is forced on anyone is not a belief, Jesus forced Himself on no one, that is not to say that some people through the AD ages have not tried to force Him on people, well they were wrong, Jesus is to be offered and what He taught was definitely as the apostles said, "These are hard sayings". Well hopefully something to think about. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"Doubt is an essential component of faith ... because if matters of religion or belief were verifiable ..."

But they are verifiable!!! http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul The big money goes to those who lead the multitudes to hell. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, getting to heaven being the loftiest of intentions possible.

Contraty to popular belief, prostitution is not the oldest profession. Minister, scaring people with threats of hell is much older than prostitution and a lot more profitable. How many madams do you know with cathedrals of their very own?

Here's the difference GARYD, as I see it, anyway:

Science will investigate dark matter and energy until it is disproved, and then they will throw it out. Will the religious do the same for God?

Much beyond the rudiments nothing we know is really true! What holds the Universe together? Science right now postualates Dark energy and dark matter which currently are as indectectable as any God you care to name.

Saying that dark matter and dark energy are what holds the universe together may not be any more factual a statement than saying that God holds it together.

The Bob which utopian are you?

Zane - interesting conversation -- It just doesn't seem to me that there's any rational searching going on in an enchanted universe - no questioning, no answering, just being enchanted.

In terms of your hope that "we will move closer to accepting religious traditions as having discerned and nurtured spiritual and moral truths that are in no way dependent upon the literal truth of their fact claims." Maybe - as long as it's made VERY CLEAR that "traditions" are not "literal truths." The Episcopal church is especially bad about this at present.

There's a lot of 'fessing up to do - comparable, in my mind, to acknowledging that "the emperor has no clothes" is just a fairy tale. It has a wonderful lesson to be sure, but the story isn't factual. Of course in that case, everyone has always known it's a fairy tale with a good moral lesson. That's not the case with the "traditional" stories of Christianity, and lets face it, while there are some good lessons there, there's an awful lot that doesn't make any sense. And some people will feel very betrayed when they find out that most of the clergy and half the congregation doesn’t believe in the supernatural stuff that everyone tacitly accepts.

>> "... a whole construct of an enchanted universe that crowds out any further rational thought."

This is often the case, but is it always? Someone could perhaps have faith -- particularly in the manner Balmer describes, in which rational doubts are acknowledged -- and still be constantly searching, examining, learning, keeping an active and open mind, and maturing in their beliefs, gradually discerning which aspects of their religious tradition represent literal truths versus figurative devices or mythologies of an earlier time.

Someone who obstinately clings to the literal truth of a 6,000 year old universe because that's what some preacher told him or who believes that God is literally an old man with a white beard because he's seen pictures has not progressed very far in his faith and may never and possibly doesn't want to or isn't capable of it. He is also not the only type of believer out there.

My own hope is that we will move closer to accepting religious traditions as having discerned and nurtured spiritual and moral truths that are in no way dependent upon the literal truth of their fact claims. Instead of using faith to comprehend "truth," let's use reason to comprehend "enchanted."

"I decided long ago that I would not allow the canons of Enlightenment Rationalism be the final arbiter of truth. "

So have you determined how many unicorns can dance on the head of a pin?

Zane - your example is quite different than Balmer's "enchanted universe" - yours is a hope against hope that you'll survive a terrible illness. Your hope will be realized or not. Time will tell. His is an acceptance (unless I'm missing something) of the whole story line and dogma of the Christian Church which he knows - because he's studied it rationally - can't possibly be explained rationally. So he installs it in an enchanted universe - where rationality doesn't apply. It can stay there forever because it exists only in his imagination.

The truth is that many issues of faith (Did Jesus rise from the dead? Did he fulfill the prophesies for the messiah? Were the Jews enslaved in Egypt?) can be subject to rationality, and when they were, since the enlightenment, they failed the test. Seems to me that that's where faith comes in, and the need for a whole construct of an enchanted universe that crowds out any further rational thought.

I don't think Balmer is admitting that "faith is not truth." I think he's probably saying the opposite in fact.

I take his point to be that the fact that matters of religion are not verifiable by rational means does not preclude their nevertheless being true. And when one must -- for their own spiritual (or perhaps psychological) reasons -- believe something that one cannot rationally verify, it becomes necessary and legitimate to discern (or perhaps define) the truth through faith rather than empirical evidence.

Do not demand proof in matters of religion, but instead acknowledge their insusceptibility to proof and the inevitable doubts that will entail. Sustain yourself then with belief despite these rational doubts rather than inaccurately (or perhaps dishonestly), denying their existence, and your faith will be stronger and more genuine, not less.

An analogy might be if I were diagnosed with a terminal illness, complete loss of mobility, and incurable, excruciating pain; also, all of my loved ones recently died in a plane crash so I'm all alone in the world. I would not, let's say, see any point in living given those circumstances, as it would be a miserable existence and not seem to serve any purpose. I have limited options. I cannot convince myself through rational means that I have any likelihood of ever enjoying any quality of life. Yet I have a mostly intact instinct for self-preservation so I am not suicidal.

I might therefore elect for very good reasons simply to believe that, hey, strange things (perhaps miracles) happen and one day, even though I can't see it now and couldn't tell you how or why, I will come out of this OK. You could argue with me and even raise well-founded doubts in my mind, but bottom-line I gotta believe. In acknowledging the lack of rational basis and even my own doubts, I am not in any way admitting that my belief is not true. I believe it is true, and I will make major life decisions based on that belief and perhaps will be the better for it.

Now if I start imposing those beliefs on others, passing acts of Congress to prevent removal of feeding tubes from the brain dead, etc., then I've become a menace to society.

You also posted the wrong data, anonymous.

There are almost 8 million Presbyterians and nearly 5 million Episcopalians in the United States, and less than 2 million Muslims.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

You can put your fears of a Muslim takeover of America away, I think...

Sorry. I posted to wrong place.

Poet is right. Wherever one looks, Islam is on the move.

More Muslims live in America today than all the Presbyterians and Episcopalians put together.

There are more than 1,200 mosques in the United States and 1000 mosques in England, where the Muslim community has established its own national parliament.

Rev Balmer - as Zane and other previous posters point out, you can't be faulted on honesty. The scary thing is that you’re an intelligent, accomplished guy, drawing income from accredited institutions of higher LEARNING. If you successfully impart the concept of living in an enchanted world to your students, it is certainly dangerous to the “rational enlightenment” that has informed the advancements of humankind for the last several centuries. In fact, the more I think about it, the less your universe seems “enchanted” and the more it seems simply regressive and archaic – ignoring the enlightenment when it suits you and keeping it for other things like modern transportation, communication and medical care. If you personally “elect” to live in this enchanted world, OK, and in a way it’s charming to see a grown man admit to something so fanciful. But it’s not good if you’re teaching it to the next generation of clergy, and they in turn pass it on to their congregations.

Looking on the bright side, it could be your way of admitting that the whole Christian story just doesn’t make sense when you apply the scholarship of the enlightenment to it – all the findings on mythical precedents to Jesus, and textual analysis of the Bible, the lack of historical evidence for Jesus, the lack of archeological evidence for Exodus, and the political power plays that formed the early church. If this attitude spreads, maybe fewer people will be able to suspend disbelief to accept religion. Maybe they’ll be more likely to see accepting the supernatural and using complete “faith” and no reason and entering an enchanted universe as the last desperate attempt of the religious industrial complex to support the continuation of their industry.

Personally, I’d rather see the Episcopal church openly leave the supernatural behind – a lot of members don’t believe in that stuff anyhow – and work on establishing a church based on Christian humanism that is truly a product of the enlightenment.

Jim Carlson: We just don't know. Live with it.

Wonderful to hear someone say this. I live surrounded by people with widely varying degrees of ignorance and education, nearly all of whom find it necessary to have firm beliefs about the universe and our place or purpose in it. To live with open eyes, an open mind and an open heart; to live the best life you can in the absence of any certainty of larger purpose, requires a kind of courage that is not, I'm sorry to observe, widely appreciated. Thank you.

"I elect to live in an enchanted universe where forces are at play beyond my ability to comprehend, much less explain, them."

Enchanted forests are for children. Religion gives us- miracles, magic books and an enchanted universe. Science gives us answers to our childlike questions.

Steve O

This feature, "On Faith", gives people from all walks of life the opportunity to participate in one massive, inclusive, multi-cultural, all-encompassing, pointless, worthless circle jerk. One gains temporary, transitory pleasure, but then is left with the the question, "Now what?".

The point is that no one knows anything. It's all guess work, it's all speculation, it's all meaningless. Do you want to know why you are alive? What your purpose is? What it all means? What happens when you die?

Then die. Or, if you're not willing to do that, spend a day wondering where your next meal is coming from. Or if you're going to be able to visit the local market with out being blown up by a suicide bomber. Or if that sudden pain in your chest is indigestion or the first sign of a massive heart attack.

Best of all, spend the night in a concrete cell with the knowledge that you will be hanged in the morning, because, as some British politician once said, it really focuses your mind.

The "On Faith" feature just gives people, including myself, the opportunity to spout gibberish. What a waste of cyberspace!

This feature, "On Faith", gives people from all walks of life the opportunity to participate in one massive, inclusive, multi-cultural, all-encompassing, pointless, worthless circle jerk. One gains temporary, transitory pleasure, but then is left with the the question, "Now what?".

The point is that no one knows anything. It's all guess work, it's all speculation, it's all meaningless. Do you want to know why you are alive? What your purpose is? What it all means? What happens when you die?

Then die. Or, if you're not willing to do that, spend a day wondering where your next meal is coming from. Or if you're going to be able to visit the local market with out being blown up by a suicide bomber. Or if that sudden pain in your chest is indigestion or the first sign of a massive heart attack.

Best of all, spend the night in a concrete cell with the knowledge that you will be hanged in the morning, because, as some British politician once said, it really focuses your mind.

The "On Faith" feature just gives people, including myself, the opportunity to spout gibberish. What a waste of cyberspace!

"I elect to live in an enchanted universe where forces are at play beyond my ability to comprehend, much less explain, them."

Although this statement appears child-like on a first read, the statement is actually quite profound.

It undermines all dogma - religious or scientific - about the creation of the universe and, as a corollary, our vaunted place in it.

We just don't know. Live with it.

In religion and politics all proclaimed truths ultimately go back to what someone else has said or written. "It says so in the Bible," is one of my favorite demonstrations of this process at work. I find that's nonsense because no American is obliged to believe anything that's written in the Bible. Period.

I hold that the truest of all truths is "Things change." I was taught early on to remember "that from the moment you're born you begin to die." Moreover, we don't need any pontificating or Bible banging to know it.What to do in the meantime is the big question. I suggest reading Ben Franklin to get a start on practical living.

"Now, Balmer's basic premise makes no rational sense. But nothing says it has to; it just is. It's not a fact that can be right or wrong; it's his opinion, and he's entitled to it,"

Fair enough; I was distracted by his misrepresentation of Enlightenment Rationalism as being an arbiter of "absolute truth" and assumed he sees his religion as the same. If instead this is an admission that faith is not truth I guess I don't have a problem with it.

Regards

A Hermit

If my religion depended on messages from mythical angels, I would have signficant doubts about said religion.

It turns out the angels of Mormonism ("angel" Moroni), Islam ("angel" Gabriel) and Christianity (