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MC

Very nice.

I've always thought that "religious politician" as an oxymoron in about the same class as "military intelligence" (WMD anyone?) or--oh, I don't know--compassionate capital punishment.

Religion--like science--is a way to understand the world. Politics is all about power, the getting of it, the 'waging'of it,--yes! the way some pols govern is similar to waging war--the keeping of it.

A true religion should provide its faithful with a purpose. It seeks help in perfecting humankind of a supernatural type but also from the accumulated wisdom--spiritual leaders, texts &tc--from the past.

Politics is all about this world. It attempts to 'perfect' (it gets to determine what is 'perfect') mankind all on its own.

The worst types of political systems have sought to perfect man by decree and, when that is found wanting or is not rapid enough, by force. Ex neocon Francis Fukuyama described it the process of history "hurried along" by armed interventions. These systems originated in the radical left of the French Revolution, but they found their fullest expression in the (now mercifully defunct) Soviet Union.

The rationale for invading Iraq--imposing democracy at the end of a gun--was quite reminiscent of this leftwing, Trotskyite worldview.

So, the problem about George Bush was not that he believed in Jesus Christ, he did, in that at least he was sincere. The problem was in his other beliefs, specifically in his politics: his 'faith' in the efficacy of force & his subsequent attempt to transform an area by armed might were actually espousals of very radical Trotskyite politics..

I guess we could call him a conservative Jacobin, & I would note his reign lasted about as long as theirs...although fortunately (for him) the guillotine has been abolished.

BOB, there's only so much money and the government must fund faith based community initiatives. How can we live without them? There's no money left for stem cell research anyhow. It was a Bush win win. He balanced the budget and made the evangelicals happy at the same time. God is smiling on Bush.

Bramblebum:

I would only add to Ba'al's comment by saying that it doesn't matter how Mr. Bush personnally understands stem cell research. He's not a scientist. What does matter, however, is how he acts as President of the United States. He overrode the House and Senate, as well as the opinion of the National Academy of Science, and vetoed federal funding of applicable research.

The fact that he did so with religious conviction only proves the point the above statement.

Thank you.

Brambleton, in response to your comment:

1. According to the General Accounting Office, in 2005 more than $2.1 billion in competitive social service grants were awarded to faith-based organizations. In 2003-2005, the total dollar amount of all grants awarded to faith-based organizations increased by 21 percent. Former director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives (OFBCI) Jim Towey admitted in 2004 that "no direct federal grants from his program had gone to a non-Christian religious group." In June, 2006, U.S. District Judge Robert W. Pratt ruled that a faith based-program at a Newton, Iowa prison called InnerChange, operated by Charles Colson's Prison Fellowship Ministries, unconstitutionally used tax money for a religious program that gave special privileges to inmates who accepted its evangelical Christian teachings and terms.

2. The only bill Bush has ever vetoed in 6+ years is one that would have increased the ability of scientists to carry out stem cell research, although you are correct that he claims not to oppose it completely. Scientists working in this area (I am one of them) find his position on the subject to be completely irrational.

3. Finally, I am not sure what you are getting at in the strange Greenland-North Korea connection in your comment. But based on the fact that Bush uses 9-11 as his basis for the attack on Iraq-something he continues to do repeatedly-if the Koreans do something provocative we can use the same logic to attack Greenland.

Bob,

Could you let me know what "faith based" projects are being funded with taxpayer dollars? Second, President Bush doesn't oppose stem cell research. And finally, North Korea's Islamic population probably ranks on the same level with Greenland.

These boards could probably generate engaging discussion. Unfortunately, we'll never get there because people like this are more interested in sounding like Michael Moore or George Clooney instead of turning the TV off and reading a book.

BOB, your post is right on again. Good for you.

Could it be that Bush has simply served his purpose and is being allowed to 'twist in the wind', while using the media to aid the wind?

Anybody with 'one eye and horse sense' had a good idea of what was going to happen in Iraq, so 'they' shouldn't be allowed to plead 'ignorance'.

Both Kerry's nomination and defeat were manipulated. It should be observed that Iowa is a 'caucus' state of party people rather than having a primary election by the people. Ever wonder why a caucus state goes first with buildup for it to be significant??

All the panelists here seem to think and write that what happens is legitimate and not manipulated. It ain't that way.

The way may have been manipulated/rigged through the ages, since the writings attributed to Moses.

Anything a political candidate says about religion or his/her religious beliefs is said for political purposes only, and should be listened to with this in mind.

There's more to you essay than you might think professor. The media jumped all over Bush's claim that "Jesus Christ" was his political philosopher and de facto endorsed it. At the same time the other candidates picks were lost in the shuffle. In boxing that's known as a low, below belt blow.

I don't blame Bush. It's the media's fault we got Bush for president and presumably the mess in Iraq. The media should have ignored his comment altogether but it's so juicy. The same is true for "swift boat veterans" that got a couple billion in free advertising from NBC alone with Chris Matthews mentioning them and what they said several times each day on "Hardball" itself aired 2 or 3 times daily without rebutal.

Pat Robertson says "I spoke to God" and the reporters rush to hear what God said that is then aired on all channels. Any opposition to either Jesus Christ or Pat Robertson is totally ignored, supressed even. Take http://www.hoax-buster.org for example.

If I were running for office then I too would kneel before the bishop and kiss his ring for the media will be there, film it and everyone that watches the news will see. That doesn't cost a penny. Forbes, McCain and others with real political philosophers are shunned talking about the things that count in our everyday lives.

Now the same media that put Bush in charge is after his scalp. What goes around comes around Bubba was heard to say. When will Bubba ever learn? Never if he's waiting for the media to tell him. Maybe the country needs a few good patriots to make sure Bubba's ignorance problem is solved? Are you one of them or another seeker of truth and wisdom from that great politician, Jesus Christ?

You said:

"Like many of my fellow panelists here, I reject the idea of a candidate using religion in a politically manipulative way, as a signal to that part of the electorate with "ears to hear" (to borrow a phrase). That can be poisonous to politics and religion as well. I also believe that a candidate's religion should not be accorded a status apart from the other formative ideas and influences in his or her life."

What insight was gained by Mr. Bush's comment in the election debate about Jesus Christ? What possible relevancy has that had on his conduct in office? What actions has he taken that remotely reflects anything whatever to do with Jesus Christ?

[Funding faith-based projects with federal taxpayers dollars, opposing stem cell research, supporting Intelligent Design in public school science classes, launching a crusade against Islam and talking to God about invading Iraq? These are very good reasons not to ever elect a person who believes in Jesus Christ again, aren't they?]

Thank you.