All Comments (106)

This is regarding the post by JEREMY who posted on August 30th, 2007.

JEREMY's post is the perfect example of why it is so important to have the truth spoken (and written) in order to help others understand the truth. When we first set out to make our point by quoting anything other than the holy Scriptures (as Jeremy did) we are already missing the point. The word of God, given to Christians in the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments is the Living word fo God.

As for the lacking of facts that Jeremy attributes to God's word I have to admit that I am dumbfounded by such statements. The written word of God is not only the richest source from which to draw where our faith is concerned. It is the only source from which to know the most important facts of all. That is, the human condition is utterly hopeless as we are eternally lost in our sin. That Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, fully man and fully God lived a life of complete obedience to God the Father and died on the cross, the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. That through faith in Him alone are we saved.

Not only are these Facts enough for Christians to "go on". They are the only Facts that are necessary. Furthermore, these Facts stand true throughout the ages with no dependency at all on how we might Feel about them.

I think of Paul in Corinth.

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Cr. 2:2 KJV).

if i confess that im trusting jesus as savior from hell into heaven are we having true faith

dude this book deliver a messiah misatken identity is like that i was sceptcol at first purcising the book but let me tell you this man is for real i dont see comin bacc from this one i knew somethin was wrong wit the wole cruci- "fix" thing . wht kind of bullcrap wil they tri to dis creddit this story no my frend this is the best yet good job dude!!

dude this book deliver a messiah misatken identity is like that i was sceptcol at first purcising the book but let me tell you this man is for real i dont see comin bacc from this one i knew somethin was wrong wit the wole cruci- "fix" thing . wht kind of bullcrap wil they tri to dis creddit this story no my frend this is the best yet good job dude!!

dude this book deliver a messiah misatken identity is like that i was sceptcol at first purcising the book but let me tell you this man is for real i dont see comin bacc from this one i knew somethin was wrong wit the wole cruci- "fix" thing . wht kind of bullcrap wil they tri to dis creddit this story no my frend this is the best yet good job dude!!

dude this book deliver a messiah misatken identity is like that i was sceptcol at first purcising the book but let me tell you this man is for real i dont see comin bacc from this one i knew somethin was wrong wit the wole cruci- "fix" thing . wht kind of bullcrap wil they tri to dis creddit this story no my frend this is the best yet good job dude!!

AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK DELIVER A MESSIAH MISTAKEN IDENTITY CLAIMS JESUS IS DEAD. iS HE A MUSLIM OR NOT? DO NOT THE MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE SECOND COMING? AND AS FOR IT BEING JOHN THE BAPTIST ON THE CROSS, YOU CAN GO F#@$ YOURSELF MR. BELICA YOU ARE THE ANTI-CHRIST IN THE FLESH. TOTAL MANIPULATION OF THE SCRIPTURES- I DONT CARE ABOUT THIS BULL-@#!% PROOF OF YOURS. YOU WONT GET AWAY WITH THIS YOU DEVIL. I DONT CARE WHAT THE GOSPELS SAY I HAVE FAITH IN MY LORD JESUS

Deliver a messiah mistaken identity ...and again.. another blog with this persons marketing scam on every blog having to do with religion and jesus christ and muslims... I wonder how much blog marketing spam costs these days. I think I will write a book on how jesus christ was fathered by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) when he went through a worm hole in time and space! I bet I can make some money off it! Do not play into these people. They are not trying to spread knowledge, they are trying to use your interest to get your money. If you have money to waste, then use your money for better things like zakat.

Deliver A Messiah, "Mistaken Identity" by Agron Belica brings forth an elaborative examination of who was put on the cross. Many theories suggest that the son of Mary (aka Jesus Christ) was not the person placed on the cross, but someone other than Jesus Christ himself. The author takes you through an examination paving ways of new insight of who might have been put on the cross.
To contribute to the present work, the author investigated and researched to seek the truth about the assumptive facts leading up to what people of Christendom believe to be the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The Bible and the Koran are the main resources used as references formally presented in use of persuasive arguments and theories of why the author strongly does not believe that the son of Mary was killed nor crucified.
The author has made every effort to be as unbiased and objective in presenting the facts and interpreting the events in this present work. The author is not trying to stir up controversy, but only wishes to lead people towards what might be considered the truth about the events believed about the crucifixion. The author strongly believes that the prevailing powers during that era have camouflaged the truth. The cover-up of the crucifixion with a false pretext was to lead the masses of people in the past and at present to believe, that the son of Mary was really crucified, by the leading elite that was influenced by the Jewish religious hierarchy at that time.
This book is in itself a preface to a larger work soon to come—an introduction to the topic. Who was put on the cross at Calvary those many years ago? Join author Agron Belica in his attempt to Deliver a Messiah.

AuthorHouse Publishing

If you have faith in Christ, but no personal feelings about it, then how do you have a testimony of Christ, or a personal relationship with Him?

Mother Teresa Was Indeed Acknowledged and Favored by God But Through Her Lack of Understanding She Could Not Recognize It.
This is a mistake easily made today in our era. The explanation starts in the working of the brain. Let me explain.
Our head contains three main drives or brains, each independent but tremendously inter wired i.e. an emotional brain, a behavioral, action brain, and an intellectual brain. Each of these is able to communicate with another person or with God. Each has memory and can reason. Each person is an individual and develops each brain differently and differently to other people. The result is some people are more intellectual, others are more emotional with love and relationships, and yet others are more physical and active. In relating to God intellectuals emphasize prayers, facts, faith, emotional people emphasize love, feelings, adoration and action, behavioral people emphasize rituals, ceremony, service.
According to the above article Mother Teresa desperately longed for God’s love. – I long for God, she wrote, but find longing and no love.
Washington Post article September 5, 2007 Article –10 Years Later, Mother Teresa Remembered – states –When she died on Sept. 5, 1997 at 87, her Missionaries of Charity had nearly 4.000 nuns and ran roughly 600 orphanages, soup kitchens, homeless shelters and clinics around the world.
There are now more than 4,800 sisters and more than 750 homes around the world, according to the order.
The above is a fantastic accomplishment and in so many cultures.
Surely anyone on such an amazing journey and accomplishment against such great odds must be dancing in the streets for joy and forever giving thanks to God for such fantastic success and such continuous help and solutions given naturally through the subconscious to anyone living and working in the spiritual world.
It is sad that a person living and working in the behavioral, action world would not see the great reward given in the same area but look for reward only in a different world and brain area.
What I am saying is that there are three brain areas of communication between a person and God and if God is over whelming a person with success and praise in one certain brain area he can not be accused of neglecting the person.
It Is In A Behavioral, Action Manner That We Will Have To Build __ The Heaven On Earth World __ Advocated By Jesus Christ.

Dr Mohler does a great disservice to the cause of the true gospel by saying that "Mother" Teresa was a Christian. She was not. She was a Catholic who never received Christ by faith ALONE.

If you trusted Christ you wouldn't trust a Southern Baptist redneck know-it-all like Mohler.

Mr. Mohler is, as are all ministers, priests, mullahs, rabbis, bishops, a con man continually squeezing out of all situations enough to keep the poor minded folks brainwashed over religion. It is all a fairy tale told by idiots, meaning nothing. I am starting a new church deifying Santa Claus. Anyone interested?

Evangelicals and other Christians call Christ “our Lord” but Christ plainly states that we should call no man master and no man father because we all have the same master and the same father, even the Christ. Christ also states that he wants us to be his fellow servants, in other words, to be like him.
Not that I don’t believe in his divinity but that I believe in our own divine nature. Ancient Jewish belief, Cabbalistic thought, states that we have three centers of energy. The lower is our animal nature, the brain is our human nature, and the heart is our divine nature.
Scientists today believe that consciousness comes solely from the brain when in fact it can not be localized because it is in all places at all times. God is pure consciousness and the two great ethical luminaries are love and intelligence. Without these we have fear and ignorance.
Consciousness is the root and fabric from which all manifested things spring and we are able to partake of a little of it, some more than others. Einstein said “ The most beautiful and the most profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical, it is the sower of all true science. Those who can no longer stand rapt in awe and wonder are as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us actually exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty that our dull faculties can comprehend, this knowledge, this feeling, is at the heart of all true religiousness”.
Faith has many meanings to many people but I will put my faith in God and Christ’s message concerning the Supreme Being.

The real trouble with faiths like Christianity and Islam is that they both insult God.

Christianity insults God by making a human, Jesus, a good man but not a perfect man, God. Also known as idolatry.

Islam associates a criminal, named Muhammad and the Arabic god Muhammad created, Allah with God.

Mr. Mark,

You are certainly wise in your own eyes. The all knowing atheist says there is no God. How do you then establish truth? Is truth established by your subjective viewpoint? Is it established by the subjective viewpoint of a scientist? Does a group of subjective scientists get to decide what truth is? What is their ultimate reference point. What is yours? Do you have one that is objective? Is it absolute?

My problem with this whole MT discussion is this: "why would a loving God refuse to comfort or respond in any way to this woman?" It does not seem possible to me. Why would He not reveal himself to this woman who was doing such good work for Him? It seems cruel, not the actions of a loving God. Everytime I have gone to God for anything, He has ALWAYS responded to me in some way. (It has not always been in the way I expected.) What kind of father would not answer the cries of his child? I don't think MT's "dark night of the soul" had anything to with God abandoning MT, it had to do with her being unable to sense His presence. Perhaps she was depressed. Perhaps she was looking for Him to reveal Himself in a paricular way (and of course we can't command God to do that.) We will never know why MT felt the way she did, but we have to understand that it wasn't God who left her for 50 years, He was obviously standing right there beside her the whole time, she just couldn't see Him.

Messiah Time,

Deliver A Messiah, "Mistaken Identity" by Agron Belica brings forth an elaborative examination of who was put on the cross. Many theories suggest that the son of Mary (aka Jesus Christ) was not the person placed on the cross, but someone other than Jesus Christ himself.

The author takes you through an examination paving ways of new insight of who might have been put on the cross.

To contribute to the present work, the author investigated and researched to seek the truth about the assumptive facts leading up to what people of Christendom believe to be the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

The Bible and the Koran are the main resources used as references formally presented in use of persuasive arguments and theories of why the author strongly does not believe that the son of Mary was killed nor crucified.

The author has made every effort to be as unbiased and objective in presenting the facts and interpreting the events in this present work. The author is not trying to stir up controversy, but only wishes to lead people towards what might be considered the truth about the events believed about the crucifixion.

The author strongly believes that the prevailing powers during that era have camouflaged the truth. The cover-up of the crucifixion with a false pretext was to lead the masses of people in the past and at present to believe, that the son of Mary was really crucified, by the leading elite that was influenced by the Jewish religious hierarchy at that time.

I find it difficult to believe that Christ had meant to send good people to Hell for not believing that he was of the divine, when some of these very people relegated to Hell for not believing that Christ is Lord, live exactly as Christ' words had asked them to.
Something is wrong. The Christian faith I believe cannot be predicated on an ultimatum:
Believe or go to hell!
Jeff

"Salvation comes to those who believe in Christ."
I do not believe in Christ, nor in this "salvation." Neither do billions of other ppl. What do you believe your loving God will do to us?

"Our confidence is in Christ, not in ourselves. We are weak; He is strong. We fluctuate; He is constant. We cannot trust our feelings nor our emotional state."
Pity. You should have confidence in yourself. You are strong, and you can control your feelings and emotional state! You can think for yourself and trust yourself! If I can do it, so can you.

Atheism has set me free and made me a better person. It can do the same for you.

Axeldc,

Isn't the conclusion of the doubt process is as important and as intelligent as the doubt process itself? Her intelligence has led her to think that there is something terribly wrong with the christian faith. Don't you think? She was "awarded" the sainthood by the vatican even though deep in herself she didn't believe. Do you consider this hypocricy or intelligent on her part? Thanks.

Doubting is a sign of intelligence. Telling people to ignore their doubts is telling people not to think about their lives and belief systems. Mother Theresa's ability to question her own belief system was an indication of great intelligence that questions conclusions and requires evidence for assertions. The people who have listened to their doubts are the ones who have changed society.

I dont know if I would trust anything Dr. Mohler has to say about anything thelogical or not. This is a man who recently said that if "we do find a gene that is responsible that causes homosexuaility we should have it Changed."

I dont think he really knows anything and He has an agenda. It is furnished by the Christain Coalition.....bad news......

Mr Nohler said:

"Trust Christ, Not Feelings"

But that's exactly what Teresa was doing! She trusted Jesus but couldn't find this working for her. May be she should have trusted the Father, not Jesus. That's Jesus' teachings, to trust the Father in heaven. Why is it always the case that the church teachings are at odd with what Jesus said? Anybody else sees this problem or is it just me!? Jesus himself worshipped God, the father in heaven. Why do you always try to replace that concept with other concepts that niether supported by Jesus nor supported by the bible? Jesus teaches you to pray to God and you ask people to pray to Jesus! Does this make sense to you? May be Teresa tried hard and reached the same conclusion as mine...

To summarize:

Mr. Mark:

The Bible says XYZ.

Others:

The Bible does not say XYZ.

Mr. Mark:

It doesn't matter what the Bible says because it's a book of fable and fantasy.

I too suspect that Mother Theresa was living with depression. But if pride and self-righteousness were the primary cause of depression, we would ALL be depressed. Of course she must have had those faults, because all humans have them. Her depression probably had a biochemical cause.

I have lived with depression my entire adult life, but it rarely caused me to have doubts, because I was taught from the beginning of my Christian walk that my faith was not grounded in my feelings. It didn't matter whether or not I could "feel" God; my faith was based on what I believed to be the facts.

Since I cannot see Mother Theresa's heart, I cannot judge her faith. If the Catholic church finds it necessary to elevate some Christians above others and has to judge their hearts in order to do so, then so be it. I will simply quote the book of James: "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

Don't our feelings tell us to trust Christ when we first became Christians?

Dr. Mohler,
Thank you very much for being one of the very few leaders that dare to stand for the CHRISTIAN TRUTH, no matter how politically incorrect that could seem in this postmodern relativist era.
Teresa's was a FALSE GOSPEL, as simple as that.
Unfortunately, she was made into an icon. By the wrong people and with the evil purposes we all can infer.
Was she a good example of what the whole Word of God teaches about Christianity? I'm afraid she was not.
Was she a woman that tried to help the poor? Yes. As many, many others.

Of course Christians experience doubts and loss of faith at times, but in Mother Theresa's case I can't forget that she denied Christ in the most essential way, by teaching that people can get to God without Christ, through other religions. She did wonderful works of mercy but in all her compassionate care she refused to preach the gospel of Christ to any of her charges, saying that there are many ways to God and it would be wrong to impose hers on anyone. I can't help but think that this was so dishonoring to the Lord that her failure of faith was merely a reflection of the tragic fact that she didn't belong to Him.

"The Vatican has said, "Such moments of "weakness" are in fact "the proof of the greatness of faith of Blessed Mother Teresa and take nothing away from her holiness".

What if it's *not* a 'moment of weakness?'

What if it was...

A human life?

Dear OPN -

Thanks for your - I guess? - kind words.

Uh...you link to the Answers in Genesis website? You're kidding, right? Why inject idiocy and pseudo-science into what should be a respectable discussion?

Well, turnabout is fair play. You may wish to visit this site:

www.noanswersingenesis.org.au

It is clear that Dr. Mohler has never read any of Mother Teresa's own writings, nor the book "Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light". If he had, he would realize that she had a profound faith in Christ and that all of her good works stemmed from this faith. She just wanted to be a pencil in the hand of God writing a love letter to the world.

It is also clear that he has never read Catholic news coverage and relies solely on secular media. The purpose of the new book is to further her cause toward sainthood, not question her faith. It was compiled by the Postulator of the Cause of Canonization for Mother Teresa (i.e. the person responsible for presenting evidence of her holiness to the Vatican.

In a press release, he wrote that her "experience unveiled in the book is her identification with the poorest of the poor she served. She came to understand that the “darkness” was the “spiritual side of her work.” She was sharing in their sense of being “unloved, unwanted and uncared for,” which she described as the greatest poverty in the world of today."

The Vatican has said, "Such moments of "weakness" are in fact "the proof of the greatness of faith of Blessed Mother Teresa and take nothing away from her holiness".

Finally, her suffering should make us ask the question, "Why did Jesus have to suffer and die?". We know he had to die for our sins, but why did he have to suffer? If we truly seek to understand Mother Teresa's suffering (along with great saints like St. Paul of the Cross, St. Jeanne de Chantal, St. Vincent de Paul, St. John Vianney, and St. Therese of Lisieux) then we will draw closer to Christ.

Personally, I just think the blurb up front of this article is bassackwards: here we have someone who *did not* "trust Christ" who was acting out of *feelings,* (self-destructive sounding ones at that, but feelings, nonetheless,)

...not "Trusting Christ" but trying to *force matters.*

Trying to do the right thing the only way she knew how.

That's human.

Trying to claim her as a further example of why people should torment themselves with abusive religious ideas, I think, denigrates her human courage... and, I hope she showed, despite her disbelief, ...human caring.

I mean, heck.

She may have been crying inside about feeling abandoned by your God... I question why even in death ir was unacceptable to her to tell the truth *about* her feelings.

I wouldn't figure it's your God that 'abandoned' her.

Or that she went through all that to validate the beliefs of others who told her, 'Keep nobly suffering for what we say you must believe.'

When you think of it, that's the same kind of thinking that put people in a place of 'needing' her in the first place.

Maybe this is just about people.

Dear Reverend Mohler,

Your comments are most insightful, but please be advised that the Catholic Church is not reviewing the writings of Mother Teresa because we are "worried" about her salvation. The Church has a stansard of "heroic" sanctity that must be met in order for a person to be recognized as an exemplary Christian, a person whose life can be studied and imitated, for Scripture says through the mouth of St Paul, "1Cr 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ"

When the man asked Jesus,"Will many be saved?" Jeaus rebuked the man mildly by not even answering his question but by rather changing the subject and replied "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for on that day many will try to enter the kingdom but will not be strong enough."

The Catholic perception is not of an instantaneous flash of irrevocable grace but rather of a processional transformation... one that can be sabotaged at any time by a rebellious act of the will.

Be that as it may, we all "judge" by our own standards, but let us all strive sincerely to attain to the one truth that is manifest in Jesus Christ.

Mark said:

"At the least, I would hope that OPN would concede that there's a basis for my reading and that I didn't make it up out of thin air".

I wasn't going to respond again but I wanted you to realize that I did not think you came up with it out of thin air. I simply stated it was (quite possibly) the worst commentary on the subject I have heard.

That being said, you provided specifics in your defense with your second response. I applaud your conviction and research on the matter.

We can argue circle, sphere, ball, globe, two-dimensional, three-dimensional, chuwg, etc. all day long, but I fear this post has been hijacked enough.

Your argument seemed to be similar to Paul H. Seely's and for that reason I have provided an appropriate link.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i3/flat_earth.asp

Mark, I do appreciate the interaction. Thank you!

This truly will be my last comment. You may have the last word.

God Bless and we'll keep you in our prayers!

I'm not sure I agree with this. We should be wary of our emotions, but cultivate our spiritual feelings. Jesus promised he would send the comforter, or the Holy Spirit. Recognizing feelings of the spirit as manifestations of God is very important to increasing faith.
The feelings I have of the spirit are a source of incredible peace and faith.

Jeremy II -

Thanks for your comments.

As I mentioned earlier, there are over 70 Bible verses that postulate a flat earth. I'm not hung up on the verse in Isaiah, I thought we were having a dialogue about this *particular* verse, dissecting it as it were, to make our respective points. In fact, my responses were directed at OPN who opined that my reading of these verses was - in his words - "...(quite possibly) the worst commentary I have ever read." I hope that I have disencumbered him of that perception. At the least, I would hope that OPN would concede that there's a basis for my reading and that I didn't make it up out of thin air.

At the end of the day, it matters little from my perspective what Isaiah meant or didn't mean as the Bible is book of fable and fantasy. We're truly arguing over the number of angels dancing on that pin head, or over the number of rooms there are in Santa's workshop.

I freely admit that I don't enjoy these exchanges as much as I used to, which is why I only rarely post here these days.

Our exchange was fun, but in the context of what's important to my life, it will probably last me for at least a few months. I don't obsess about these things. How can one?

Big on ya...

I appreciate the open dialogue because too often we can have too much infighting amongst Christians. But I guess that's the way family is, isn't it?

UCCER, I won't even pretend to know God's mind because His ways are higher than ours. amen.

But I, myself, because I am so desiring to please Him in all of my ways, search the scriptures because I cannot trust man necessarily to show me the way. Man does unfortunately fall short of the Glory of God. amen. and woman.

Scripture is the only thing that I know that does not fail. It is the only thing that has been the guiding force besides God's Holy Spirit that has kept Christianity alive. When man gets in a disagreement scripture settles it.

The interpretation is probably where we get the discord. And since it is given to man to be able to interpret it for himself....well...I guess it explains all of our differences.

Love is esteemed most in the Bible. This is true. And perhaps if we were the hands and feet for Jesus the way we ought to be like Mother Teresa was and did leave the judging to God we would be nicer with each other.

But because we are different and do have different gifts we ought not discount the one who desires to remind us what God's word has to say. Afterall it is the origin of our faith. In the beginning was the word and the word became flesh...

There should be balance and compassion for those who are driven by the word and for those who choose its subtleties.

For if we are truly Christ's, and having a relationship with Christ we should be able to trust that by His Holy Spirit, He will bring us into a right place with Him.

God should be allowed to have His perfect work be done.

Mark, again, you are doing the same thing your opponents on the other side are doing: co-opting a prooftext (Isaiah 40:22) to promote your ideology (are you familiar with the phrase, "prooftexting"?)

If you insist on disregarding the entirety of the passage (Isaiah 40:12-31, which, as a whole, is talking about the difference between man and God, and clearly NOT the geometric shape of the earth), I suppose I have nothing more to say to you on the subject.

As the topic here is supposed to be doubt, here's my last word on it: We all could stand to exercise a little more SELF-doubt from time to time, instead of clinging to our absolute certainty that we're correct. We might all find a little much-needed humility.

S. Jane,

Again, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I will just add this.

I think it is wrong for fundamentalists to say that the difference between conservative and liberal churches is that conservative churches are biblical whereas liberal churches are not. I find this characterization, which is repeated so frequently that many would mistake it as fact, to be insulting.

Liberal churches are as serious about the Bible as conservative churches. We do have a somewhat different interpretation. We feel that God is a loving God and that, as per the great commandment, above all we must love one another. This means that the worst sin of all is to judge others. Rather we are commanded to be humble before God.

Dear Jeremy II -

Thank you for making my point.

In CONTEXT, Isaiah is speaking of a flat earth. The curtain and the tent references support this.

As far as your citing the world "horizon" - that is a new interpretation that is not necessarily tied to the root word.

As far as god's vantage point - again, flat earth works: god sits above looking down through his curtain to the grasshoppers hopping on his flat circle.

As far as Isaiah giving a lesson in astronomy - astronomy is a concept that Isaiah wasn't privy to. Indeed, the Bible says the stars are little twinkling lights set in the firmament (dome) of heaven that can fall to the earth (wear maximum sun block when that happens!).

Why not just admit the Bible got it wrong? I could even accept an explanation that said that god realized that the earth wasn't flat, but he didn't really care if Isaiah and others wrote that it was. It didn't matter to him. THAT, I could accept. But gerrymandering convoluted explanations onto something that - in context - is quite clear seems to me to be an exercise in futility.

If I may give insight into a fundamentalist. It is the concern that God's word might get watered down or changed and loose its meaning.

Its hard to read something that goes so contrary to the word of God, which is a Christian's guide for living, and not say something to correct it.

Liberalism in its very meaning says to take liberty with something, to give it maybe more meaning or even less. While someone who is conservative says they cannot change what to them is written in stone (no pun intended).

God's word says that though the flower fades and the grass whithers the word of God will stand forever. It doesn't change.

What you may deem as attacks, I pray you may see as correction. And believe you me I read my Bible to make sure I do some correcting right back if something is said amiss.

But please understand that while someone may correct a stance on a Biblical interpretation that it is not in anyway shape or form an attack on one's faith.

I can speak this with sincere confidence as a Baptist that we consider our faith a very personal relationship with our Lord. And it is the very reason why Dr. Mohler ended his essay by saying that he could not judge the condition of Mother Teresa's faith. It is because we can't, only God can judge our faith whether it is weak, strong or non-existent. And to tell you the truth I'm okay with that. I'd rather God be my judge than man.

Note on "Chuwg" (Mark & OPN et al):

NEITHER side can legitimately hijack this verse and prooftext it to make it say what they want.

This little word (also transliterated as "hug") means nothing more than "circle". Therefore, it falls to the CONTEXT of the passage to determine its precise meaning according to usage (Isaiah 40).

Once again, it is clear from the CONTEXT of this passage that Isaiah is making NO commentary on the geometry of the earth, whether flat OR round. (Why would he? To suggest that Isaiah is giving a treatise on astronomy is ridiculous).

The meaning that best fits the context is "horizon" (which, from any vantage point, ancient or modern, is irrefutably a circle). His figurative point: God has a verticle vantage point that gives him a special perspective that mere men do not, being small and finite. This neither suggests that Isaiah thought the earth was round nor flat. It simply uses the universal observation that a person's vantage point in all directions is a flat, circular horizon, while God's, being divine, is above it, giving him special knowledge. We can't decide that interpretation--we must allow Isaiah's CONTEXT to do so.

Bottom line: we humans are limited in knowledge, while God is not. He sees all. And given Isaiah's point, I think the direction of the whole discussion is ironic.

S.Jane,

First of all, I very much appreciate your response to my WWJD question. I very much agree with your answer. It gives me hope for the SBC.

To answer your questions, the SBC is in lockstep with the conservative wing of the Republican party. Much of the rhetoric in the current immigration debate on talk radio borders on pure racism. For Americans to consider themselves superior in the eyes of God is the ultimate arrogance.

Regarding aggression and violence, the SBC supports the invasion and occupation of a nation that posed no threat to us.

As far as hatred of other denominations, whenever a liberal theologian posts to these board, the fundamentalists always attack, saying that because liberal churches are "unbiblical", we are losing membership and such. Well, I am getting tired of being bullied by the fundamentalist pigs. This is one liberal Christian who is fighting back. I want to point out that it is the SBC and other fundanmentalist organizations that are unbiblical.

It is so easy to denounce someone else's faith. Mohler does it all the time as per his posting against the ELCA. Fundamentalists are always denouncing the faith of other Christians that they don't see as "true Christians" in a way that I consider hateful. I see Mohler's post here as a hateful attack on Mother Teresa, one of the most revered Christians in recent history. Shame.

Dear Jeremy II -

You make valid points, yet even in context of your appreciation of the Bible, it comes down to opinion. In your case, "understand(ing) any text according to the author's intent."

How does one discern the author's intent? More importantly, isn't the "author" of the Bible god himself?

I'll tell you what would have convinced me that god was behind the writing of the Bible - a single mention of marsupials or a single mention of micro organisms. Surely if the Biblical god is omniscient, he would have known that he had created creatures like the kangaroo, wombat and koala. Surely, a god who gave man dominion over the Earth would realize that man would have a hell of a time dominating the micro organisms. After all, if he created it all, why not mention such creatures in his magnum opus? The Bible mentions unicorns and fire-breathing dragons numerous times, but the marsupials go wanting. Why?

Speaking of the marsupials - IF they were on Noah's ark, how did they leave Ararat and localize themselves in water-locked Australia? Or is that all a metaphor as well?

The SBC is not the topic of this forum. But since you brought it up.

Speaking as a Baptist who is of Hispanic descent and a person of color, I'm just wondering where you get your info. I have never ever felt any recrimination from Baptists, ever.

Violence and aggression??? I've never seen it.

Just because someone doesn't agree with another person's way of believing ie. the mormons, and Jehovah witnesses does not mean they hate them.

wwjd? He would do today as He did then. He would preach that we should love God with all our heart, love one another as we love ourselves, to go out into the world and preach the gospel to everyone, and he that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but to also tell those who believes not shall be damned (meaning will not have a place with God), and to teach believers to observe all things that He has commanded us.

He doesn't say that it would be easy, instead He says that it is a cross we must bare. He also tells us that if we are hated it is because it is Him in us that is hated.

And yet in spite of all of this and how hard Christianity is to sometimes follow it has survived. It has survived and even inspired people like Mother Teresa to sacrificially give of themselves who though was not perfect herself but like us all fall short of God's glory more often then we'd care to remember.

The guiding principles that you speak of are all scriptual. They are in the Bible to which every Christian espouses to whether they are Catholic, or Protestant. Though some more than others.

Dr. Mohler does not question Mother Teresa's salvation at all, or whether she was a Christian or not but rather that she may have trusted her feelings too much.

Though sometimes we do not feel the presence of our Lord it doesn't mean that He isn't there and that is what Dr. Mohler is trying to say.

Jason,

Basically, the Southern Baptist Convention has become a fund-raising arm of the Republican Party. Any leader considered remotely "liberal" has been purged.

The SBC supports violence and aggression in direct contradiction to Jesus' teaching. They also consider Americans to be superior to other human beings, particarly Hispanics. This again directly contradicts Jesus' wish that they may all be one. Finally, the SBC hates many different types of faith organizations that differ from their Biblical interpretations, including Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants, Jehovah's witnesses, eastern Orthodox, and Mormons.

Hate, not love, is the name of the game at the SBC. WWJD?

Mark (et al),

I respectfully beg to differ. While I agree with "the first Jeremy" that the main point of Scripture is not to idolize the words themselves, I cannot agree with you that each person has his own right to subjectively decide how he or she will take various statements found in the Bible. Readers have an obligation to try and understand any text according to the author's intent (in this case, Daniel). Otherwise, we might just as well give up reading it and simply rewrite it to make it say whatever we want it to.

For example, Mark, if I chose to publicly claim your words on this forum are all "metaphors", you would rightly accuse me of misrepresenting you. In the same way, if a writer uses an illustration (e.g. Daniel 4), then explicitly narrates to his audience what the illustration means a few paragraphs later, it is disingenuous for us to claim that it is meant to be taken literally.

Which brings me back to the issue of doubt. I believe much of the rancor coming out of these discussions arises from fear. When the "other side" raises doubts in our position, we tend not to deal honestly with facts, but to deny them or twist them to fit our position. (This flat-earth discussion seems to abound with examples).

So, let's deal with the real claims of science, but let's also agree to deal with what's REALLY written in the Bible, paying attention to the historical context and setting of the authors. A person using a Bible search program to piece together random verses and quotes from different parts of the Bible and seizing upon decapitated bits of phrases here and there to bolster his agenda can pretty much come up with anything he wants. Doing the hard work of Biblical research to discover what the authors were actually trying to communicate, and dealing honestly with what we find, is another thing altogether.

This guy teaches at a seminary??? (what is a protestant seminary anyway...with guiding principles such as Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Priesthood of Believers, what's they point? They all end up preaching private interpretation anyway!) This is one of the most un-academic written works I've seen published in a long time...i guess that's what happens when you have editors who edit and publish on topics they know nothing about...shame on you Newsweek! As far as Dr. Mohler is concerned; Mother Teresa is well on her way to Sainthood...I'd bet her faith (much like Jesus') has done more good for others then yours ever could! Let's see how many prayers are written in your name postmortem

This guy teaches at a seminary??? (what is a protestant seminary anyway...with guiding principles such as Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Priesthood of Believers, what's they point? They all end up preaching private interpretation anyway!) This is one of the most un-academic written works I've seen published in a long time...i guess that's what happens when you have editors who edit and publish on topics they know nothing about...shame on you Newsweek! As far as Dr. Mohler is concerned; Mother Teresa is well on her way to Sainthood...I'd bet her faith (much like Jesus') has done more good for others then yours ever could! Let's see how many prayers are written in your name postmortem

Dear OPN:

You may be interested to know that the root of the Hebrew word "chuwg" , ie: circle, means "to encircle, encompass, describe a circle, draw round, make a circle." These are two-dimensional definitions for the word chuwg, ie: circle.

While some might argue that there is no specific Hebrew word for "sphere," there is a Hebrew word for "ball." Interesting enough, Isaiah uses the word "ball" in 22:18 - "“The Lord is about to hurl you away violently, my man. He will seize firm hold of you, whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball (Hebrew: duwr) into the wide land."

So, a word that very much describes a sphere (duwr) was available, but Isaiah in 40:22 opts to use the two-dimensional Hebrew word for circle (lest you say I'm stacking the deck, I realize that some Bible translations use the word "duwr" as "turban" instead of "ball," but it's my understanding that most Rabbis believe the word ball is the appropriate translation).

BTW - the fact that the prophet absolutely intends the word "chuwg" to be interpreted two-dimensionally is confirmed at the end of the verse where he says, "...who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in."

You set up a tent on a flat surface. Is it possible to "spread" a tent upon, say, a geodesic dome? And how about a curtain? We can all imagine the use of a curtain as the ancient Hebrews would have known it - as a basically two-dimensional piece of cloth that separated things. That's the job of a curtain, to separate one area from another. Now, if you wanted a piece of cloth that you would wrap around, say, a sphere or ball (duwr), that would be a blanket, not a curtain.

Finally - why would you assume that the meaning of the word "circle" has changed between ancient times and now? Everyone back then knew what a circle was, and they all knew what a ball was, just like today.

Your turn...