All Comments (60)

15fIcD U cool ))

ballast frenchwoman untransfusible besneer whichever lymphangiectatic tuffaceous lernaean
The Crimson
http://www.deerfood.com/ussa.htm

All I need to say is: BLESS YOU!

I received my degree in Religious Studies and am sympathetic to ALL religions, but happen to be a practicing witch also. I know...weird combination. But I say this only because I have SEEN it. What's fun about this (at least in my case) I have been able to explain to the 'offended' how they practice a NeoPagan religion, which is nothing like the original practices.
I also took a Christianity class from a historical perspective and must say I thoroughly enjoyed it. What was really cool is 'The Passion of the Christ' came out that same semester, so we really got to discuss and evaluate it.

Actually, though, Concerned Christian, if your xenophobic self could *possibly* befriend any Native American medicine persons, Concerned, they'd probably come right back and tell you how easy you get off with me. :)

Oh, and Concerned:

"Paganplace,

"Apparently you work for the "Praise Paganism Fellowship" :)))). If not, you should start such an organization. I have a number of American Indian medicine persons who would like to join."

I doubt it. But hoka hey. :)

"Another point comes to mind, do the large number of pagan groups/cults each have their own "pretty wingy talking thingie"/demon of the demented? "

Apparently not. Particularly since you can't seem to name any 'Pagan Cults..." (we don't have that kind of authority structure: apparently, by this reasoning, our veteran dead couldn't get their faith registered on their gravestones while actual 'cults' could. )

As for 'pretty wingy talky thingies,' no. Apparently not.

Need one?

Could probably set you up, since you're so fixated on the idea. :)

Well, Norrie, not all Buddhists are so 'atheistic,' in a way. Especially in common practice in Buddhist countries.

There does seem to be a presumption among some that 'Seeing through' is a condition that must be superior to all others and that it's inherently problematic not to be trying to so that right now.

I mean, see through the Wheel, what do you get?

Evangelical hard rationalism? Doesn't make much sense.

I dunno, sometimes it seems like that attitude is "Ha ha! I see Nothing! Nothing is The Only Thing! All must See Nothing!'

That Seeing Nothing, I think, is the *start* of the path, for some, not the End. (who said this came in order in the first place? If it did, we should all be fricking Bodhis by now :) *cackle to Aerosmith's 'Sweet Emotion' on radio* )

On this:

""A core belief of Buddhism is transcending the temptations of the physical plane. Pagans do not seek this transcendence, typically. It is more about embracing and balancing aspects of physical life and spiritual life." "

Actually, that sounds very *much* like many Pagans I know. It's just not like, "Physical=Temptation-Bad."

It's about "Bring It All Wherever You Are."

Frankly, to meet us, it's usually the uptight diletantes among Buddhists who buy into this, "You Pagans are worldly and callow" deception.

Yes on one, no on two.

Them that walk seem to see better of us.

I mean, hey, if I gotta incarnate as someone who'll end up a Buddhist monastery at some point, I'll go ahead and do that. Body's a bit spent, but there's a few miles on this spiritual drivetrain yet. :)

Ha ha. :)

I mean, hey, if you can see through a dream, what's wrong with being in a dream, anyway? :)

PaganPlace,

You wrote:

"Anyway, to expound a little, Pagans tend to view the Wheel as a thing to be embraced and improved, not, as such, 'escaped' as some see Buddhism."

I think Buddhists would replace your word "escaped" with "seen through". That would be good Buddhist doctrine.

Regards.

Obijon,

Thanks for your reply to my post.

You wrote:

"A core belief of Buddhism is transcending the temptations of the physical plane. Pagans do not seek this transcendence, typically. It is more about embracing and balancing aspects of physical life and spiritual life."

My understanding of Buddhism is at variance with this. My understanding is that Buddhism is not opposed to any of the earthly pleasures - "as long as we don't get carried away into thinking that such things really exist."**

**From an excellent book, "WHAT MAKES YOU NOT A BUDDHIST?" by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse, a Tibetan Buddhist (2007).

In other words, enjoy everything this world has to offer: money, sex, career, family, good food, and so on. But realize that they are, in Buddhist parlance, "empty," i.e, having no inherent, real identity.

I've found "emptyness" difficult to understand, but it is perhaps the key Buddhist concept. Once grasped and incorporated into your perceptions, you can enjoy the "relative truths" of good things, while seeing through them to the "absolute truths" of our existence.

You also wrote: "Life is about here and now, yesterday, and tomorrow. It is not so much about someday, the hereafter, or Judgment."

I'd agree with you if you dropped yesterday and tomorrow. I believe that if you are fully present in the present moment, things take care of themselves, and you may discover enlightenment.

Best wishes to you.

Priver,

Thanks for your answer. It seems that Buddhism and Paganism have similar attitudes toward other beneficent paths to realization.

Best wishes.

Paganplace,

Apparently you work for the "Praise Paganism Fellowship" :)))). If not, you should start such an organization. I have a number of American Indian medicine persons who would like to join.

Another point comes to mind, do the large number of pagan groups/cults each have their own "pretty wingy talking thingie"/demon of the demented? i.e.

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerer" got around).

Jesus and his scribes and family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

I mean, really... I know theological debate tends to be dominated by people who base their ideas of reality on one breeding pair of each species on Earth, and greet the Babel story with horror at the appearance of human diversity...

But I figure, if you want to look for purpose, there's more than one kind of us on Earth to *some* good end, right?

Doesn't suck, I think, when you really look at it.

That's what I think of Buddhism. And a number of other things. :)

Anyway, to expound a little, Pagans tend to view the Wheel as a thing to be embraced and improved, not, as such, 'escaped' as some see Buddhism.

The reconstructed European idea of the point of reincarnation is actually more like the old Druidic saw 'to experience life from all aspects,' not to ascend a ladder.

Like in the Song of Amergin:

(actually some very similar ideas of life-experience arising in waves: I'm a wave of the sea, I'm a wind of the sea, I'm a song of the sea: a stag of seven tines, a savage boar in valour, I'm this, I'm that... ) this is how the Milesians come to Ireland, a land of four quarters and a center much like the Ayurvedic ideal, ... by passing beyond and returning past the 'ninth wave...' )

This isn't about caste as an inescapeable state, but often as living through roles: the bulls in the Tain, immensely powerful creatures, were once rival swineherds who battled through many lives and ages and transformations....

Finally became the prizes of Connaught and Ulster, and, destroyed each other... Big story stuff.

Anyway.

There's a lot of commonalities between European Pagan and 'dharmic' religions. Certainly, in modern times in America, a lot of cross-pollenation of sorts: maybe it's awfully Wiccan of me, but I see Paganism and Buddhism in a similar way to *complementary forces:*

Western Pagans are in a place of *engaging and embracing life,* and others speak of transcending it.

Is one right, the other wrong?

I don't think that'd fit the pattern of things.

It's cool. :)

"Do Pagans generally have a common opinion of Buddhism, and of its merits or demerits?

I'd be interested in your thoughts."

Actually, I have a close relationship with a Tibetan Buddhist priest for my own stuff. I see it as another viewpoint on the same world. Maybe with different priorities.

At the very least it makes for a good 'Who watches the watchers' sort of situation. I highly recommend the practice, actually. ;)

Please give specific references to books, journals and website addresses to include authors and publishers to support your claims about the number of pagans in the US military and please include what cult the number represents. (e.g. American Indian "religions"/cults, Far East pagan cults).

Norrie,
I can't say what all Pagans think of Buddhism, but I can do a little bit of compare and contrast with my own point of view.

A core belief of Buddhism is transcending the temptations of the physical plane. Pagans do not seek this transcendence, typically. It is more about embracing and balancing aspects of physical life and spiritual life.

The Buddha and others who have achieved the Buddha consciousness (or close to it) are said to dwell in a realm beyond the physical plane. Many Pagans believe in other realms or other planes of being. Many seek contact with the spirits and divinities of those realms. Those who share my point of view, however, seek to learn and gain experiences that we can apply to our lives on this physical plane.

Life is about here and now, yesterday, and tomorrow. It is not so much about someday, the hereafter, or Judgment.

Many Pagans do believe in some kind of reincarnation. Maybe not the specific caste system and wheel of life of India, but a sense that life continues and spirits return.

I hope that addresses your query some more.

Norrie,

Thank you for your kind words. I had hoped it was in jest, (especially since it seemed to be somewhat out of character for you) but had to respond in case someone else read it and thought it was to be taken seriously. :)

I certainly can't speak for all Pagans, nor would I want to try. But for myself, from what I know about Buddhism (and granted, I can only base this off of a couple of folks I know, a little bit of reading and from your earlier writings on this site) I find them to be very articulate, educated, and can be some of the most mentally, emotionally balanced and self-disciplined folks out there. I do admire that.

There are some real similarities between Pagan thought and Buddhist. The idea we have similar to Karma is our Threefold Law. Basically saying that what we do to others comes back to us, times three.

We also believe that there are many paths to the Divine or Enlightenment, and that all are equally valid. What works for me may not work for those around me, and that all paths are ok.

For me it's about the journey, not necessarily the destination. It's the common ground in all people (even those with no religion) that I tend to look for and try to honor that in another person. I can learn from everyone, including those I disagree with.

As far as I'm concerned, all are welcome as long as discussion is respectful and with the understanding that proselytizing on any side is not acceptable.

"But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average. .............
And with so few Pagans in the military why are we discussing this issue?????"

Really? hmmmm that’s why on Balad in Iraq there are a minimum of at least 15 Pagans every Friday holding a Circle with in the chapel. Recently there was a story in Stars and Stripe about a circle with quite a few more at just 2 bases alone there are close to forty want to do the math now?

Those numbers you quote are old based on data done during a time period when Pagans were too scared to show their faces in fear they would mess up their careers thankfully times have changed and many of us are coming out of the wood work.

take the time to go to the AKO forums Army Knowledge Online and you will see one of the top rated post is called “Military Pagans” It has 9486 compared to the 60,000 post in the Christian one. The Pagans make up 1/6th of the Christian post. Logic would tell you there are quite a few Pagans in the Army and that is just the Army.

The Chaplains are becoming very surprised lately by how many we are, and there are enough of us that on the many FOBs in Iraq that the chaplains have taken it upon themselves to set aside time and space for these pagans to gather together in fellowship. So if there is enough for that then there are enough for a Pagan Chaplain. We only need one, someone up there who can educated his fellow non pagan chaplains on our beliefs so that they can properly be able to take care of every one in their flocks. Something they are all ready working hard to do.

I am proud of the Chaplains Corps because no matter how much pressure the Fundie Right puts on them they keep taking care of us, and I am sure they would welcome a Pagan chaplain with open arms.

The Problem is Ecclesiastical Endorsement and a pagan Clergy member who meets the Educational and seminary criteria. We have the groups to endorse , Unitarians, and a few of the Wicca Churches who are now recognized as “churches” by the COMIS, we just need to find the volunteer who matches the Criteria, and that is the hard part, there are not to many accredited seminary endorsing agencies out there. Right now it looks as if the Unitarians would be our best bet.

We fight and die just like our Christian brethren we fight for their freedom as well as ours shouldn’t we at least get the same support as them?

SSG G
Taji, Iraq
www.craobhruadh.org

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,
Considering that since the Defense Dept only includes those numbers from the Air Force and Navy, I'd say that maybe it isn't as reliable as you might've thought.
The issue, since you're so concerned, is that other religions have chaplains in the military. Would-be pagan chaplains have either been rejected or honorably discharged. All of these responses are unjust.
Might I also remind you that Wallmart has no chaplains, is not a part of any governmental body, and otherwise has nothing whatsoever to do with this article?

Viejita and Priver (and anyone else),

ANOTHER QUESTION:

Buddhists believe that there are elements of good in all religions, belief-systems, spiritual faiths, and so on.

Do Pagans generally have a common opinion of Buddhism, and of its merits or demerits?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Viejita and Priver,

Thanks for your comments. Of course my post was an attempt at humor. I have too high an opinion of Pagans generally to seriously suggest that GWB should be numbered among them.

Priver, In this age, anyone who calls him/herself a Pagan, unless from a Pagan family, has had to do a lot of thinking to get there. I know that most Pagans, if not all, are educated and thoughtful.

Best wishes to you both.

http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.

But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.

There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".

And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!

And with so few Pagans in the military why are we discussing this issue?????

KCUPH
Non-Christian and Non-Abrahamic are even broader than Pagan or Heathen, since they would also include most of the non-Western and non-European faith traditions.
Pagan is a cultural term and seems to be the most acceptable to its adherents. It may have started out as a term of derision or dismissal, just like "Christian" for the early followers of Jesus of Nazareth (or "Papist" for Roman Catholics) but many seem to have adopted it as a point of pride.
I realize there are differences: For instance, I take pride in being a Papist, while some Catholics might find the term insulting. There is so much more to being Catholic, after all, than following the Pope.
To me these are all just labels, and those who seek to misunderstand will find ways to do so under any name.

You cant join a "Paganism"! Or celebrate "Paganism"!
You can follow one of thousands of pagan beliefs but the word "Pagan" is pretty ugly in itself.

I prefer Non-Christian or Non-Abrahamic. It fits without the judgmental overtones. You know... It's like, "eewww he's a pagan" or "oh he's non-Abrahamic". Politically correct? Probably, but I'd rather not be classified as scum.
Therein lies the reason that Earth bases beliefs are treated like trash. Pagan is a Christian term.

(As to the goat sacrifice, thems the other guys)

Norrie,

I do understand why you'd say that.. but please don't make us take the responsibility for someone who says that he is a born again Christian. While the root of Pagan is 'country dweller', I think you'll find most Pagans are highly educated and learning more all the time- though it doesn't take much to surpass him. This is the same guy who said that he didn't think Wicca was a religion and the military should do away with teaching about it.

He doesn't care about who he hurts in his efforts at world domination. Any self- respecting Pagan group would kick him to the curb because he refuses to take responsibility for his incredibly destructive actions. Even when the threefold return that he's now getting from the world, Congress and the American people is painfully obvious to everyone except him. He wouldn't know a Pagan if he fell over one.

I certainly never voted for him. Either time.

The only thing we can do is look for someone who wants to help heal what he started.

Don't give him to us, please.

Namaste.

Norrie,
your comment is funny but it brings up a serious point. Do we classify people by what religion their actions reflect, or by what religion they hold claim to? Is it club membership, church attendance, or demonstrated ethics?
I find many of the posts and comments on this site not at all Christ-like, but they originate from individuals who use the name Christian.....

A QUESTION:

George W. Bush is demonstrably not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.

Does that mean he's a Pagan?

If nothing else, he's a Country Bumpkin, unschooled in any of the arts and sciences.

Therefore a Paganus?

Excellent article. I find myself having similar conversations with people all the time.

There is no such religion as "paganism", there are many religions which we refer to as "pagan".

How strange. Your right that the ancient pantheons and practices are forgot.
The bad apple has caused this. It was created planted and nurtured by Constantine, Justinian and a parade of demonic hellbringers after.

We all know what happens to a car that parks in front of a train. It is destroyed and often it's passengers are lost.

Unlike most of the old beliefs, there are those silent sects that still exist. Writings have remained in their grasp. Warnings of papal rage were heeded and here we are today.

The wonderful thing about science is that it (like any other christian controlled entity) plays to the wants of government. Education does as well. Money is needed so education and science become corrupt. Archeology, Anthropology, Theology and any other historical science/practice, are as valuable as the "Government" allows.

Pagan faith, Christian faith, Islamic faith are the same emotional connection to a given deity or deities, be it Hellenic Abrahamic or a Moon God Al-ilah. What has destroyed the old beliefs is the governments that were created by the religions with armies.

To our own shame, our silent sect must now become an "ism". The "ism" effect comes from religion, not from faith.
Perhaps you might mention in the future that religion is the government of governments? It has nothing to do with faith. Religion was a practice of Julius Caesar enhanced by Constantine and Justinian. Julius used the practice to fill his legions with soldiers. With Constantine and Justinian it became the practice to fill churches.
Further, the worst of all blood sacrifices were given by the pagan, Christianite?, Helenite, Semite Hetite, Sainite and all other followers of "Other beliefs" to the Church. The Religioning of mankind under one god has removed most of the above. Onward Christian Soldiers?

Tinkerbell, millions deny You but I know that You exist,and that You ,O Holy Virgin Fairy,will guide and protect me through this life and the Wonderful Hereafter.

You know, if people are going to accuse modern Pagans of martyring their ancestors, um...

At least does that mean we're a real religion, to your satisfaction?

"Some of the most violant [sic] persecutions in hsitory were done at the hands of pagans."

Once the shoe was on the other foot, the Xtians returned the favor in spades. Throughout history, more Xtians have been killed by other Xtians than by Pagans. Among all the major religions, Xtians probably lead the pack in body count, if you include heretics, witches, Pagans, Mislems, Jews and Native Americans.

In the early days of the church, martyrdom was often welcomed, and in some cases, actively sought out (as with Catherine of Siena, who thought she was "too pure" for this world). If I recall my hagiography, Perpetua & Agatha gave thanks when they were sentenced to death, which was no more cruel than the death penalties imposed for other crimes. A minor crisis of faith occurred around the tenth century, as the realization sunk in that with most of Europe converted, the opportunities for martyrdom were fewer.

First, I'd like to say that my first reaction to the Pagan who objected to the lecture was a rather cynical, "Well, that's a *California Pagan* for you." In other words, there are rude crackpots everywhere, and they congregate and are tolerated in certain places-- or at least, one would like to believe that such aren't encouraged everywhere.

I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea of "Paganism" as more-or-less one religion, and feel that it reflects a terrible imprecision of language. I'm a bit more comfortable with "Neopaganism" or similar umbrella terms. I also think that there are many modern pagans who revel in a more old-fashioned, pluralistic idea of religion.

But the fact is that imprecise labels are often what catches on, and that the process of getting recognitions and rights has very little to do with linguistic or historical accuracy.

"Pagans persecuted the early Christians because they believed that Christians were atheists. Some of the most violant persecutions in hsitory were done at the hands of pagans. The Church has suffered many kinds of persecution. The growth and the continued existence of Christianity have been hindered by cultured paganism and by savage heathenism.

You should read, The Martrydom of Saints Perpetua and Felicitas. This story gives a pretty accurate tale of how Pagans treated early Christians. I wouldn't wish this treatment for any person.
"

Sorry, but saying that 'Pagans' persecuted the Christians, and in particular Perpetua and Felicitas, is just as worse as saying the Jews killed Jesus.

Not ALL pagans did this persecution. And not ALL Jews wanted Jesus dead.

As a young lady I was raised to believe in Tinkerbell.
Though me friends laughed at me when
I wore my T.B.and star at school,the realization
that they thought I was a little crazy actually helped strengthen my faith.
It also helped that my religion had no church,because as mother said the whole world is our church,especially the bottom of our garden where pixies often gather at midnight.
I've tried many times to observe the midnight frolics in our garden,but the pixies were always ahead of me,and never appeared when I was spying on them.
But of course,common sense tells me that pixies
have good reason to remain unseen.People would
destroy them,just as they did in Ireland hundreds of years ago.
So,out of respect I stopped bothering them.
I don't need to see them,or Tinkerbell.
I mean I know they are there,and that's the main thing.And I know they hear my prayers.

Pagans persecuted the early Christians because they believed that Christians were atheists. Some of the most violant persecutions in hsitory were done at the hands of pagans. The Church has suffered many kinds of persecution. The growth and the continued existence of Christianity have been hindered by cultured paganism and by savage heathenism.

You should read, The Martrydom of Saints Perpetua and Felicitas. This story gives a pretty accurate tale of how Pagans treated early Christians. I wouldn't wish this treatment for any person.

Thank god for Paganism,
because the more whacky beliefs we put on the table
the better it illustrates the absurdity of them all.
Yes lets have chaplains for this god,and that god,
and this goblin,and that fairy,and Humpty Dumpty,
and Little Bo-Peep,not to mention the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
If we insist in the 21st century on giving credence to
make believe entities,then we haven't learned the lesson of 9/11.
Religion kills.

you all some goofy sob's

"sigh}

Indeed, paganism is not what it used to be.

A "god-congested universe" is just exactly what the witch-doctor ordered to explain quite ordinary phenomenon to the then ontologically and epistemologically challenged mammalian brain."

Well, if it's too much for ya, just try not to leave too much exhaust behind you, and that's cool. :)

Hello Sistar(s) Fredriksen, Brotta. Ich Lubin Auch. Ya Ya!

Note: This is recycled Material from today. Thank You folks.

WE Love Chuck! WE Love ChuCk! WE Love Chuck! Ya!

Vote: (((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll-n-Rap, Mitt-ROMNEY, For PreZ. Ya! 2008 )))))))))))

Eeeee Haaaaa! Praise Me Holy Heart Beat, in and Of US-ALL.

We are Together Forever With Source One!

A vee da zaine! Ien GuD! One G-D! One Mother, One Father, One TELL-US today! Note: WE never Die!

A be Gazent hae.

While your sympathies for the goat are well-meaning, do they extend to the animals the Rabbis assist in slaughtering for the production of kosher meat? I have been to two Pagan events where an animal sacrifice occured -- in both events, the ritual was immediately followed by a tasty barbecue. While you might look askance at such practices, is an animal dying without being sanctified first somehow OK, but an animal who is honored and blessed before giving their life in the service of the lifeforce not OK?

The fact is, few Pagans practice sacrifice at all -- and your allusion to the idea is a backhanded slur against our religion. Which is likely one of the things that the girl in your lecture was objecting to.

Non Pagans, particularly in academia, have a disturbing habit of treating our paleopagan ancestors with condescension bordering on ridicule. Apart from Plato, Aristotle, and a few other pet Pagans, academia in the Christian West dismisses paleopagan religion as mere superstition, ignoring the deep and profound philosophical and ethical contributions paleopagans made to oursociety.

Your historical view of Classical Paganism might be academically correct, but you take a decidedly Abrahamic view of the religions. You look at them through their literature, and ignore the actual religious practice that was so vital -- so vital, in fact, that even in the face of Abrahamic oppression the "people of the country" insisted on maintaining them, albeit under a thin veneer of the dominant religion.

The current Neo-Pagan resurgence has managed to grow the religion exponentially -- without much organization, no outreach, and strict policies against prostheltyzing. Compare that to Christianity, which spends billions of dollars every year to just break even. There is something vital being re-established here, and it is worthy of note. Pay attention.

With regards to 'the jews killing god' I would have to say that that is poorly constructed perspective. As a Christian I was not raised to blame the Jews for Jesus' death. At the same time we acknowledge that in a historical context Jesus was Jewish and it was within this period of time that he died.

So many people on these forums do nothing but castigate each other, point fingers, claim deep historical wounds, offer slander as a reply to bigotry. It really makes me sad. I think the opportunity is here to understand other peoples belief structures even if they are very different from our own. I wouldn't ask you to agree with anyone, but I would say that anger and venom do little to heal wounds.

I personally find that there is a very common fallacy in these debates. And that is the value of historical intent. We can't say for sure what people thought or new in previous eras. We can look at their actions and the results of them. But at the end of the day it does no one any good to live anywhere but today. How can things better? How can I treat those around me with respect. No matter your faith tradition I think those are our universal truths. I can't blame the Romans for thinking that Christians could be treated the way they did. But I can decide not to be like them either.

PaganPlace wrote:

"College kids do get political, don't they?...Certainly the idea of human sacrifice is applied willy-nilly and inappropriately by those who want to say how bad people are if they aren't Christian... Yet, what's a witch-burning or a homophobic murder but a human sacrifice to a God?
Certainly, as Wiccans, we say that our Goddess says *She* doesn't demand sacrifices of any kind, not of people, animals, or human suffering."

Responding:

As we can see from Prof. Fredriksen, it is not only college "kids" who get political or cloak their politics of delegitimation in historical discourse--"adult faculty" are equally capable of this. With regard to "human sacrifice," many would quickly forget that the entire Christian religion is premised on not only a human sacrifice, but also the sacrifice of a God. Concommittant to that is a long standing strain of Christian thought that explicity blames Jews for this deicide--killing God. So the spectre of human sacrifice, (including Abraham's human near-sacrifice of Isaac) is still very much with Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions) today. The mystery of sacrifice is still very much present in Pagan religions, as it is in others. Many Pagans fast for prayers, visions, and in preparation for holy festivals. And while in Wicca, the Goddess does not demand sacrifice--the same cannot be said for the God, who willingly dies and is reborn.

{sigh}

Indeed, paganism is not what it used to be.

A "god-congested universe" is just exactly what the witch-doctor ordered to explain quite ordinary phenomenon to the then ontologically and epistemologically challenged mammalian brain.

What excuse now? Is not the mythology of Buffy the Vampire Slayer enough?

For christ's, oops, umm, the Slayer's, sake, do we really need bumper stickers that say "What would Buffy do?" As if the death cults of the gospel, the torah, and the koran aren't enough!

History is interesting; practicing religion is not. I praise the Teacher for placing religion in the historical context it deserves.

We have had to choose from candidates who believe in magic since democracy was founded (with a few notable early exceptions in the colonies) So yes, I'd vote for a pagan, like the teacher, based on whatever shared value I could identify with and promote as policy.

But unlike the Teacher I DO have something against these idiotic beliefs. Faith, not money, is the root of all evil. Until we come to grips with that and learn to deal with the discomfort of our death in a way that is useful to our progeny, real progress... spiritual and political progress cannot be made.

--FIUS

Why is it that even college educated professors can't help denigrating Pagan beliefs? Did you learn nothing from your experience at Berkley, or is your homily meant to insult those obviously less educated students you taught who were insulted by your assertions. Pagans do not sacrifice goats any more than Christians burn non-Christians at the stake. There are religions that believe in animal sacrifice. I am a Pagan and have never heard of a group that sacrifices humans or animals and it is unfair to lump today's neo-Pagans in that group.

Why is it that even college educated professors can't help denigrating Pagan beliefs? Pagans do not sacrifice goats any more than Christians burn non-Christians at the stake. There are religions that believe in animal sacrifice. I am a Pagan and have never heard of a group that sacrifices humans or animals and it is unfair to lump today's neo-Pagans in that group.

"While there are PLENTY of injustices against women in our society today, I don't think creating some against men is the answer. Let's get rid of the ones that we have WITHOUT going overboard the other way."

Other way of what?

Mostly, I see men who complain about 'feminism' as the ones who don't actually step up and act like men, they act like boys who had entitlements taken away and want them back.

Are you feeling ill-used, somehow?

Do speak.

There are *very good things about men* in Pagan belief. Pagan men who get this simple fact *rock,* in fact.

Ones who feel diminished by the sudden reappearance of females ...aren't there yet.

They been skating.

What would you like?

Please quit discriminating!

You said,
"Would I vote for a pagan if she were running for public office? That would depend on the positions that she took on issues...."

Are you intimating that I, as a man, cannot be a pagan? Or are you simply trying to say that all pagans should be referred to in the feminine form?

While there are PLENTY of injustices against women in our society today, I don't think creating some against men is the answer. Let's get rid of the ones that we have WITHOUT going overboard the other way.

BGone, usually I ignore you. But, since you asked...

"Just a few simple related questions: Is what you accept as fact, fact or the opinions of experts? The woman who disagreed with you probably relied on the opinions of contrary experts? Does anyone have the story straight?"

When it comes to what Ancient peoples believed, we still have very little recorded history to go by. So much information has been lost over the millennia that we could never know the "facts" about what happened back then. We can only suppose. So no, people generally do not have the story straight. I tend to rely on the facts as they are interpreted - by me or by experts.

"Do you teach that the first "talking" god is the wind? Do you know that the wind has "no body" is a "spirit" a god? You must put yourself in the minds of people to see what they are seeing before you can understand what they said or are saying. Does the wind speak? Is the wind a spirit, a being without a body that can "do work?" The wind can do work? Hint: Katrina!"

Wind, or air, has been called a God in the past by many cultures. The Greeks called the wind Boreas. The Yoruba called her Oya. The wind can certainly "do work". Just look at a windmill. Like all of the elements (earth, air, fire, and water) it can be harnessed for good or be a wild, destructive force. Heck, we saw that last night!

"By now you must understand that talking is work, applying a force and causing matter to move."

Um, yes. Talking generates sound waves which move through air, causing ear drums to vibrate.

"Did you ever wonder what ancient philosophers had to say about work? Have you ever been told that all work is done by "living" beings?"

Never heard that one.

"Are you aware that "dead birds don't fly?"

So many snarky responses to this, so little time...

"Can you explain how the sun, the moon and the stars fly?"

Um... they don't. Ancient cultures that did not have telescopes thought that the celestial bodies "flew". Then, people thought that the Earth was the center of the universe and the stars and planets rotated around it. Galileo was excommunicated for proving otherwise.

"Let us state work formally: "Only living things move. Living things can move dead things. If an object moves it is either itself alive or under the influence of something that is alive." Is that statement as true today as it was 5,000 years ago?"

Define "living". Liquids move. Gases move. Light moves. They are not "living". We know a great many things that we didn't know 5,000 years ago. So, why would a statement like that be true? Pagans aren't the ones running around saying that the Earth is only 6,000 years old! Remember, we're the ones that BUILT the Library in Alexandria. The Christians destroyed it!

"Maybe your approach to knowledge needs to have "expert opinions" removed? You can always go back and read those ancient documents yourself.

This fellow did, http://www.hoax-buster.org Is what is taught as religious history at Berkley what the ancient documents say or what experts under the influence of religion faith they say?"

I've read that website. It's a bunch of nonsense.

"Final question: Are Christians also Pagans? Hint: Angels are gods that serve God."

No. Christians have taken elements of Paganism and adopted them for their own use. And, I don't think that many Christians believe that angels are in and of themselves Gods.

Oh, don't get us started on Silver Ravenwolf.

Dame Laurie may be no historian or theologian, either, but I have a certain affection for her. She's like the flaky aunt who teaches you to love the world while everyone's being fussed about propriety. :)

'Pagans of old' didn't live in quite our conceptual world. Let's live in ours.

So what about the word "sacrifice" It does not mean to give up as many are led to believe it means to MAKE SACRED. So what is wrong with that ALL religions practiced it.

What bothers me is that Yes, We are alowed to talk about the not so nice Christians & Pagans. They wer not so lving all the time. (sarchasm)
But why when to subject about How Ancient Jews casr out Herrod for being Pagan (He was not the enemy, they just treated him like crap)
We are labeld anti semetic? Anyway.

ALL religion have their Ancient beliefs that do not fit in modern times so me modify.
That just how it is.

Christians of old did not go door to door spreading the loving words of Jesus. Just like the Pagans of old did not worship all of nature and cast only good spells with their magic wands.
Many Wiccans have trouble with this and white washing history thanks to people like Starhawk, Laurie Cabout & Silver Ravenwolf.

From a Pagan (of the Neo-Kind)

Just a few simple related questions: Is what you accept as fact, fact or the opinions of experts? The woman who disagreed with you probably relied on the opinions of contrary experts? Does anyone have the story straight?

Do you teach that the first "talking" god is the wind? Do you know that the wind has "no body" is a "spirit" a god? You must put yourself in the minds of people to see what they are seeing before you can understand what they said or are saying. Does the wind speak? Is the wind a spirit, a being without a body that can "do work?" The wind can do work? Hint: Katrina!

By now you must understand that talking is work, applying a force and causing matter to move. Did you ever wonder what ancient philosophers had to say about work? Have you ever been told that all work is done by "living" beings? Are you aware that "dead birds don't fly?" Can you explain how the sun, the moon and the stars fly?

Let us state work formally: "Only living things move. Living things can move dead things. If an object moves it is either itself alive or under the influence of something that is alive." Is that statement as true today as it was 5,000 years ago?

Maybe your approach to knowledge needs to have "expert opinions" removed? You can always go back and read those ancient documents yourself.

This fellow did, http://www.hoax-buster.org Is what is taught as religious history at Berkley what the ancient documents say or what experts under the influence of religion faith they say?

Final question: Are Christians also Pagans? Hint: Angels are gods that serve God.

It was not called pagan but Hellenism, Hellenaistos, Hellenes, the few books not burned by the Jews-who later started calling themselves Christians has shown this-Julius Caesar, Sallustrius-both mention this fact. Christians "rebranded" their rivals as part of their effort to destroy them, put their churches over older sacred sites, even in India they are fighting for the removal of Muslim mosques that were built over older Hindu sites. Chartres in France was a huge Druid sacred center, Charlemagne deforested & destroyed a titanic-sized ancient tree near the Lippi river, a tree that was a link to a very important natural God. The Spaniards proudly crowed that in the Americas they "severed the locals'link to the land", obviously certain people know exactly what I'm talking about here. The end of the Hellenistic Age was the beginning of the Age of the Fish-Pisces, a symbol the Christians use.

Ya know... despite all the insinuations in the comment about "your religion," there isn't actually anything to sugest in this article that the author is Christian - although that may well be the case.
Thank god that there are still people trying to teach history among the soggy mass of information attached to the word "Pagan."
Cheers,

Terra Gazelle,

Things are not so simple. In the very beginning, when there was far fewer hypochrisy in our hosts exactly because we were a persecuted minority, Christians were quite tolerant but were not tolerated by pagans.

The reasons are quite obvious: our faith hadn’t become political yet, while yours was deeply intertwined with it. Not worshipping the Emperor was high treason in the Empire, not worshipping the local deity was high treason against the city or clan.

When χianity avoids politics, it preservs liberty much better than Paganism, because it is a personal relationship with God, not an organic relationship of clan and land. May I suggest you read some pseudo-Spengler at http://atimes.com./atimes/others/Spengler.html as an introduction to this issue?