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I mean, seriously, Gary, what you say there seems to come out like you're saying that because you're part of a certain religion, you can call yourself 'better' whether or not you actually get around to doing anything 'good,' but if anyone 'else' does anything good, well, they're 'pretender goats' to some 'throne' in your mind, and thus, 'really' *bad.*

And your lot have the temerity to call the likes of *me* 'Amoral.'

I'm sorry. *That's* amoral.

I think the goats thing might be the 'surreal' part. :)

Especially if the rationale behind being 'saved by faith' means good works, yet you expect to not be a 'goat' who did good works, cause of some throne...

So, you're basically saying that in order to be 'saved' from what would happen to you if you lived a good life and didn't believe a church of some kind, you need to call people 'goats' and otherwise do what would naturally seem good if you didn't expect reward, punishment, or possibly becoming a 'goat' in the first place?

What's that mean, really, except maybe 'Believers in my religion are good cause they're saved, whether they get around to doing good or not, and not-believers in my religion are 'pretenders' and 'evil goats' however much good they may do, *simply because they don't believe in the same 'spirit?*

Don't know if *that's* 'surreal' so much as just plain not making sense.

People being goats might be surreal, though.

Or sheep, for that matter.

Good herd beast, bad herd beast... What a model for virtue...

Mrs. Fredrikson that was just a bit Surreal. If you are saved your response to that salvation is Good works, and Good works not because you expect some favor in return but because it has, thanks to the heart changing experince of the Holy Spirit, become a natural and unavoidable part of the Christians life!

And please let's remember here that there are an awful lot of pretenders to the throne who will come judgement day be standing with the goats and wondering why all their good works don't even merit a wink and a nod.

Paganplace
That's what troubles me about the question. It seems so closely focused on an internal Christian point. I can discuss this sort of thing elsewhere -- like at church.
On the other hand, some of the non-Christian columnists have had interesting interpretations, if you don't mind wading through the usual ant-Muslim and anti-Semitic nonsense.

There is that, of course, Jim. :) From my faith's perspective, I'd have to take the terms of the question quite loosely to really relate to them at all.

Although my contribution here may seem "off the wall," there is such strong and extensive documentation on the reality of reincarnation and past lives, that to ignore it is the antithesis of "seek and find." The bibliography on it that I've read is at www.tjresearch.info/rebirth.htm. The subject is of obvious relevance to the concepts of heaven, hell, purgatory, and "salvation."

More background on the topic.

Some faith vs. good works history, as per my good friend, a Catholic theology professor at a large Catholic university: It is all about Purgatory -

"Protestants because of Luther's "sola Scriptura" do not accept Purgatory as a valid doctrine of Christianity. Luther argued that "Purgatory"
is not explicitly found in the Bible. Many scholars believe that he rejected the notion because of its ties to the selling of writs of indulgence. People viewed indulgences as a means for lessening the time of temporal punishment
in purgatory. Protestants also argue that Purgatory negates the satisfaction of sin by Jesus' death. God's grace through the merits of Christ is the only thing that saves. Religious services / prayers by loved ones and the
good works of repentance for deceased persons can do nothing to help a person earn heaven. The rejection of purgatory, is part of a bigger tendency in Protestantism toward individual relationship with God and away from a
sense of participation in a bigger "communion" of the faithful.

"The Roman Catholic Church teaches that after death, those guilty of sins that are not serious (venial rather than mortal) and of mortal sins for
which persons have repented, must spend time being purified through "temporal punishment" or are given the opportunity to repent. The justice
of God requires some punishment for the sins we have committed, due to the harm they have caused. The Biblical basis for this teaching is 1 Cor 3:15. "If any person's work is burned up, he/she will suffer loss, though the person will be saved, but only as through fire." Purgatory is envisioned to be a purification, as gold is purified "as through fire," so is the soul of
the person who has committed sin. 2 Maccabees 12: 38-46 is also associated with belief in purgatory, because it refers to praying for those who have died.

Some scholars trace purgatory as a teaching to the practice of third century Christians of praying for the dead. In the late 12th century
speculation emerged that depicted purgatory as a separate "place" or state of being existing somewhere between heaven and hell. At the Second Council of Lyons (1274) teaching about purgatory became an official doctrine of the Catholic Church. It became fixed in the Catholic imagination due to Dante's Divine Comedy. During the Middle Ages (time of Crusades and Plagues)
Purgatory became an important element in Christian ascetical practices. Through such practices it was believed that the punishment due to sin could be paid here or in purgatory. In the Middle Ages speculation about Purgatory
heightened and the practice of offering masses for deceased loved ones began along with the system of indulgences. Offering prayers and Masses for the dead was seen as a way to be spiritually connected (in communion) with loved
ones.

For Catholics the doctrine of Purgatory is closely connected with belief in the Communion of Saints. This doctrine expresses the conviction that there is a communion between life after death (Saints in heaven and people making reparation for their sins in purgatory) and earthly life. Emphasis on the community of all persons living and dead is stronger in the Roman
Catholic Church than in Protestant Churches. Because of the belief in the Communion of Saints, Catholics pray for loved ones who have died, and pray not only to God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - but also to Mary and the
Saints, witnesses to and models of the Christian life. [Orthodox Christians also have the practice of honoring and praying to the Saints.] Devotion to the saints is viewed as an expression of love for those who have faithfully loved the God who is love itself."

A couple of observations, too, from a bit of a distance.

"Saved from what?" :)

But, hey. What we do in the *here and now* ripples out and lives after us, too.

Sometimes, it seems that folks who say 'faith is more important' are more willing to do more *bad works* to try and get 'faith' into people, so I wonder about what the question's really intended to mean.