Single-Issue Politics Betrays Multi-Issue Elections
The Judge in 399 BC-BCE Athens: "Did you, or did you not, teach people to think?" Socrates: "I did." The assembly voted: "Death." In the Saddleback Civil Forum, August 16, AD 2008 CE, McCain asked people to feel and Obama asked people to think. Obama's candidacy is dead.
"On Faith" correctly says that "pastor Rick Warren began his interviews with John McCain and Barack Obama by saying: 'We believe in separation of church and state, but not faith and politics.' What's your response to that and to the forum?"
1....."On Faith" had asked us panelists to propose a question to the presidential candidates. The day before Saddleback, I proposed the question with which "Pastor Rick" (as Obama called him) began. And I added this: If you "believe in the separation of religion [or faith] and politics, wouldn't the people be better served if candidates refused to answer questions about their personal religion?" Of course none of us - I or Warren or McCain or Obama - would answer "Yes." But I was fishing for reactions to the current aggressive secularist campaigning for a "naked [of religion] public square." Pastor Rick settled the question with the "but" in his first sentence. "We" his sentence began - members of Saddleback? Evangelicals? Americans? All of the above (with, in the third case, a dissenting minority).
2.....My response said that the separation is "impossible," and that the exclusion of "religion and politics" from public conversation is "un-American and disastrous." The chief value of the "Saddleback Civil Forum" was its demonstration (1) of the importance of hearing candidates' hearts as well as their minds, and (2) of an unusual and useful mode of civil discourse, namely, competitors answering the same questions without either knowing the other's answers. The secondary benefit is the forum's encouragement of public conversation precisely on "personal religion" and politics.
3.....McCain and Obama were invited to a one-to-one conversation with Pastor Rick. Obama was fair: he conversed with Pastor Rick. McCain was unfair: most of the time, he was facing the audience and stump-speaching, trying to capture the evangelicals for himself as Karl Rove had captured them in 2004 to keep Bush in the White House. Americans have a keen sense of fairness. I hope McCain's unfairness will not go unnoticed by the voters.
4.....Yesterday, I met with a group of evangelicals and (I think) convinced them that in "Saddleback," Obama was more Christian than was McCain. When Pastor Rick asked how we should react to evil, "ignore, negotiate, contain, or defeat" it, McCain snapped "Defeat it!" That knee-jerk bellicosity got America into war in Iraq. In his response, Obama said "Confront it" but with a doubly informed humility: (1) Only God can defeat evil; (2) We ourselves, as persons and as a nation, are not free from evil. At the risk of losing his Illinois race to the Senate, he spoke out against going to war with Iraq. (In the Bible, one of God's characteristics is that he is "slow to anger.")
5.....Now comes the scary part. After the meeting, one of the evangelicals approached me and asked, "Are you pro-life?" (I hadn't mentioned abortion.) Said I, "I am pro-freedom." My response triggered high-dudgeon, trembling, anti-abortion boilerplate. Asked about when full human rights begin, Obama had given a nuanced response, considerate both of women and of America's need to reduce pregnancies and thus abortions; and he was expressly pro-choice. When asked the same question, with a triumphalist smile McCain instantly turned to the audience and said, "At conception!" I have no doubt that the evangelical voter who confronted me is single-issue: even if he's convinced that on other issues Obama is more Christian, McCain gets his vote.
6.....America now faces agonizingly difficult issues. Plato, Socrates' most-remembered student, said that the political leader should be "philosophical" - a careful, thorough thinker, and cautious decision-maker. We have a candidate who fits that description. But if the single-issue, anti-abortion voters - conservative Catholic and evangelical Protestant - have their way, that is not the president we're going to get.
By
Willis E. Elliott
|
August 19, 2008; 7:53 AM ET
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Posted by: DOUGLAS FIELD | September 3, 2008 1:16 PM
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Arian
Posted by: Anonymous | August 28, 2008 5:23 PM
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& , includes MONARCHY, in "ANY" Way, Shape & Form! Destroy the [CHURCH Leaders , aka Enemy of the , devilishly intervening in OUR Secular Leaders purpose via man made ] before they Destroy [kaka on] Ye, like Mr. Wright, aka did to Obama's mind , intelligence, et al .
Posted by: Anonymous | August 28, 2008 5:08 PM
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Note SUSAN K. , Oprah Winfrey, David Sheim et al, Please do not prop-up Mr. Obama as some 'Black-Moses'. He is in fact not!
Only & Justly (to selves & others) think of Mr. Obama as "CONSCiOUSNESS [Americas] Whose TiME is Cometh! And a Test of TiME.
From EXPERiENCE And as a carcassion [Ashkenazi] American-Israeli raised by brown [Afrikaan] America-Aficans, that they [non Aboriginal Americans Africaans. europeans, Easterners..] hath their share of SLAVERY , same like (less or worse) happened to "i" Family (white) did when Perished via Cathoholic/Agnostic Pope Fearing Satan Adolf HiTLER rein on me DAD's side & Devil Advocate Catholic/Atheist Joseph STALiN murdered on my MOTHERs side!
POiNT: American Black Folk (good & Bad) Should be greatfull to their AMERiCAN Roots & not African Roots or Asian roots or Euro roots or Mid East, West, North & or South ROOT(s)! Think of U.S. of A.,'s as being a Holy Cosmic Blesseth Nebula-Made Continent of Americas. The TRUE (opposite of MYTH) "Promised Land' , as M.L.K. [pbuh et al] once invisioned! Note: He (MLK) was not Alone.
Fact: The J.F. Kennedy's, the JOHNSON's ("i" was raised by them) even the MiTT ROMNEY's was all involved in the Making of a genuine SINGULAR (not PLURALiSTiC) Civilization HERE 1st , not Abroad. Hence, Fix What is Broken (mend , Heal) adage, sayings etc..
Think AMERiC not AFRiC!
TRiViA: Did Ye Knowth that "Euro and or American" AFrICAN ex-Slave MEMETiCs, are Good Athletes & hath 15% Higher I.Q.'s than their average African brethrens & Si{Star}'s??? In a Way, Black American(s) should be Grateful [to their Slave Owners/Masters, likes ex-Prez JiMMY CARTER family , Dick CHAINY family owned such slaves etc.. for Preserving Them Here!
Note: "i" was raised to Eat on 'Chitlins', 'Grits', 'COLLAR GREENS' (the Secret to Raising kids with bones of Iron), 'Fried OKra & Corn , Corn & plain Biscuits, 'Pican Pie' etc.. Ya Ya!
---
Posted by: Anonymous | August 28, 2008 5:02 PM
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WHERE ARE AMERICA'S RELIGIOUS LEADERS ?
*** SADLY THIS REPRESSIVE JUDICIAL INJUSTICE HAS BECOME AN AMERICAN ART FORM !!!
** WHEN GOD'S FACE BECAME VERY RED **
THE US SUPREME COURT GAVE ENEMY COMBATANTS FEDERAL APPEAL HC RIGHTS LAWYERS AND PROPER ACCESS TO US FEDERAL COURTS,AND POORER AMERICANS (MANY EVEN ON DEATH ROW ) ARE DENIED PROPER FEDERAL APPEAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO US FEDERAL COURTS OF APPEAL, AND ROTTING IN AMERICAN PRISONS NATIONWIDE ??????
**** INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH THEIR FEDERAL APPEALS !
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE $LOWLY FINDING OUT HOW EA$Y IT I$ FOR MIDDLE CLA$$ AND WORKING POOR AMERICAN$ TO FALL VICTIM TO OUR U$ MONETARY JUDICIAL $Y$TEM.
****WHEN THE US INNOCENT WERE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ****
The prison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.
Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.
This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.
This devious and deceptive judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!
Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!
For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.
It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.
This FACADE and HORROR of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!
***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT, BECOME THE GUILTY!
A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE::
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM. ** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !
lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com 424-247-2013
Posted by: DOUGLAS FIELD | August 24, 2008 12:57 AM
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There is a big difference between spirituality and religion. Spirituality doesn’t have any dogma, fiction, or perversion. Spirituality is simply based on everything being connected and part of one body, with One Being behind it all. This is what Jesus A Christ was trying to communicate. It is that simple.
Politics being how various needs and wants are expressed and met or obtained how combined efforts are implemented and what joint ventures are formed and funded. Politics should include the view that we are all one; part of the same body. Religion should not be involved in Politics because it has become perverse in the eyes of the Lord it has become the house of hypocrisy not the House of God.
What is disturbing is how fast both candidates were swept into the Illusion, each not daring to question the popular fiction.
CHURCH: a body or organization of religious believers
FAITH: a system of religious beliefs
There is no difference yet neither candidate questioned it and was able to see through the Illusion created by Rick Warren. In other words he was propagating a fiction.
RELIGION IS AN EGO CREATION NOT ONE OF SPIRIT - scripture says and we are warned that the Churches (institutionalized religion) are the Antichrist; which must be true if we have Faith in Scripture?
McCain with his understandable doubts about the existence of a God resulting from his experience in prison camp, and Obama doesn’t really buy the Jesus died for our sins crap.
Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian. Furthermore the Christians should be thanking the Jews for crucifying Jesus since their act actually redeemed Christians, Jesus could have just committed suicide to die for your sins right?
What this character Jesus did was refuse to buy into the worlds fictions and he set the ultimate example of being steadfast in the truth.
Religion is one big fiction, and it was people protecting The Religion that crucified Jesus because he questioned the fiction and saw through it.
So if anyone really wants to honor Jesus, start ripping the fictions apart with your rational logical discerning minds and live steadfast in the truth, don’t sell out to the ego empire.
Remember a divided people are a weak people. This is what allows 10,000 to take advantage and make subservient the other 300 million people in the United States.
Religion is being used to divide you amongst your selves, in the US and other countries. It is one of the most effective weapons of the source disconnected ego to protect it's fictional world. Religion is a behavioral control mechanism a producer of shame, guilt and irrational conformity.
Most people have no idea what love is, because love that comes with a condition is not love. There is only one source of love, and one can choose to be a channel for it or not.
Why die and go to Heaven when you can bring it to you?
If I recall correctly Jesus once said something like “I am in your world but not of your world”. He was speaking of the world of fiction that most are living in which still persists today but looks like it is in it's end days and the Ego empire is going to fall.
Divine Source connected - Ego Divine
Divine Source disconnected - Ego Bastard
Yes, faith meaning trust is a verb not a noun. The word has been perverted by the Ego and made into a false idol.
Posted by: Richard Thomas | August 21, 2008 1:40 AM
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"The polls haven't moved an inch since the debate."
Better check your ability to predict: this year is different:
"In what could be an ominous sign for Barack Obama just days before he is formally named the Democratic presidential nominee, a new CNN poll of polls out Tuesday shows the Illinois senator's lead over John McCain has been cut in half in recent days.
According to CNN's average of several recent national surveys, Obama's lead is now a slim 3 points over the Arizona senator, 46-43 percent — half of his advantage in a CNN poll of polls one week ago, and down from a high of 8 points in mid-July."
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/20/cnn-poll-of-polls-obama-lead-cut-in-half-2/
Posted by: emma | August 20, 2008 9:54 AM
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"Everyone who wants to completely ban abortion in the U.S. should Google "El Salvador" and "abortion".
Why? Like Willis E Elliot- I actually was alive prior to 1973. I know what it is to live in America before Roe vs Wade.
Posted by: emma | August 20, 2008 9:38 AM
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Obama's candidacy dead?
Gee, Rev, I haven't met even a handful of people who watched all or part of the forum, but everyone I've run into has heard about Warren/McCain lying about being in the non-existent cone of silence.
As a religionist, I can understand that you imagine that the rest of the country awaits these events with bated breath, hangs on every word spoken and then analyze the thing to death. Might I remind you that this event was broadcast on a Saturday afternoon near summer's end, at a time when sports-loving Americans had the option of watching the Olympics, any number of baseball pennant races and a couple of golf tournaments on TV, that is, if they were even home at the time.
I was home, and I was watching TV, but even as an ardent Obama supporter, I was flipping over to the Olympics, missed much of what Obama had to say in real time and left McCain for good at his first pandering mention of 911.
The polls haven't moved an inch since the debate. Obama is still slightly ahead, and the conventions are looming.
Neither candidate need get too excited until after Labor Day, the time when the country as a whole finally decides to pay attention to the race.
Posted by: Mr Mark | August 19, 2008 7:03 PM
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"McCain asked people to feel and Obama asked people to think. Obama's candidacy is dead."
No matter. The whole world is coming to an end in 2012.
Posted by: L.Kurt Engelhart | August 19, 2008 5:33 PM
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Everyone who wants to completely ban abortion in the U.S. should Google "El Salvador" and "abortion". It's a pro-life paradise down there.
According to the NY Times:
El Salvador has not only a total ban on abortion but also an active law-enforcement apparatus — the police, investigators, medical spies, forensic vagina inspectors and a special division of the prosecutor's office responsible for Crimes Against Minors and Women, a unit charged with capturing, trying and incarcerating an unusual kind of criminal.
Posted by: Athena | August 19, 2008 5:09 PM
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Obama gave the sound answers from a biblical point of view, McCain gave us sound bites that are in fact on the wrong side of the Bible.
"We are the best at helping our brothers" sounds a lot like the Pharisee who prayed "Thank you Lord that I am not like them." "We have failed to help the least of them" sounds more like "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner."
We defeat evil? Only God has the power to defeat evil if it is His will to do so for those who confront it in His name (as Obama correctly recognized our role).
Life begins at conception? (that's not only above Obama's pay grade, it's above Warren's - the saints were unable to resolve the question). McCain thinks he's God. At least Obama only thinks he's president.
And it wasn't as responsive to the question as Obama's response was. Defining the beginning of life won't do a thing to end abortion. The question is whether we believe that a woman who has one should be sentenced for murder. If not, then it's legal. (There is no such thing as a law that has no penalty). Does anything less make sense? 90 days for a misdemeanor? if it's a felony at all, our daughters will be deprived of their civil rights and unable to get jobs for the rest of their lives.
I would like a politician to say that it hardly matters when life begins, because it is morally reprehensible to terminate a pregnancy at any stage (whether the soul has arrived, or is about to arrive hardly matters), and that there is only one goal, to make it absolutely unnecessary for any woman to ever consider abortion to be the better choice. That requires pastors who do not judge, parishioners who do not shun, parents who do not disown, friends who do not ridicule, and a society that makes adoption or keeping the child feasible.
If we succeed in that, then in fact punishing a woman who has an abortion anyway is more defensible than it is now. But not until.
An abortion is the failure of all of the above, not the absence of strict constructionists on the Supreme Court.
I think the pro life crowd should shut up about the moment of conception and the Supreme Court, and get off their butts and do something to stop abortion.
Posted by: JoeT | August 19, 2008 3:00 PM
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Suppose America had no abortions and no birth control. We would now probably have more than a billion American citizens. Would this be good?
Imagine dozens of American cities with a population
of 20 million or more like Mexico City.
Posted by: Kirk Muse | August 19, 2008 12:19 PM
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" McCain was unfair: most of the time, he was facing the audience and stump-speaching, trying to capture the evangelicals for himself "
A politician pandering to an audience? Oh the Humanities! Alert the media! Stop the presses!
I assure you sir, both politicians were there for exactly the same reason, to get votes. Obama and McCain may have differences in style, and may be pandering to slightly different sub-groups, but I assure you neither of them were there just to have a candid conversation. Fair/Unfair? Your bias is showing.
Posted by: Possum: | August 19, 2008 11:53 AM
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The teachings of Jesus Christ are difficult, even severe. Self-inflicted angst over an absurd matter such as when-does-life-begin, isn’t really what Christ has asked of us. It has always bothered me that conservative, pro-life people have an exaggerated sense of morality on the issue of abortion, and endless empathy for the suffering of the unborn, but they really don’t seem to like poor people at all, and even insist that poverty is a just reward that bad and sinful people must surely deserve. And that therefore, unwed mothers, and impoverished children, and poor people, in general, (who definitely are, beyond a reasonable doubt, human beings) are not really entitled to the same concern and empathy that is so lavishly extended to the unborn.
Isn’t it true that to show concern for the unborn is merely to feel for them without real feeling, and to cry for them without real grief, and then to swear that ones duty is done? But to show concern for real, fully formed, people who have already passed from unborn to born, and from infancy into childhood, and from childhood into adulthood, and from adulthood into old age, you must actually do something—some kind of action, some physical extension of assistance, which may in fact involve some real self-sacrifice, something that might possibly rouse the notice of Jesus.
Posted by: Daniel in the Lion's Den | August 19, 2008 11:07 AM
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Well argued, Reverend.
McCain did indeed exhibit moral arrogance, and Obama did indeed exhibit appropriate humility.
Politics has a great tendency to distort moral issues, mainly by simplifying them, and by inducing posturing such as McCain's.
Posted by: Henry James | August 19, 2008 10:28 AM
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AND WE HAVE TAKEN RELIGION OUT OF GOVERNMENT ??
SENATOR OBAMA,THIS JUDICIAL INJUSTICE HAS BECOME AN AMERICAN ART FORM,AND NO LONGER CAN BE KEPT HIDDEN OR SECRET FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE !!!
WHEN AMERICANS WERE TOLD THE TRUTH BY THIS HONEST BLACK LEADER,WHO WENT ON TO BECOME A US PRESIDENT !!!
LETS ALL HOPE OUR MEDIA FRIENDS CONTINUE TO SHOW AN INTEREST IN REPORTING ON THIS AMERICAN HORROR FACING THESE (TENS OF THOUSANDS) FORGOTTEN AND TRAPPED POORER AMERICANS, AND HOW THIS PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER HANDLES THIS VERY SERIOUS ISSUE FACING AMERICA?S LATINO AND BLACK AMERICAN COMMUNITIES ????
WITH 80% OF THE BLACK AMERICAN VOTERS SAYING THEY SUPPORT SENATOR OBAMA IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, IT IS ONLY FAIR FOR EVERYONE TO KNOW PRIOR BEING ELECTED OUR NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HOW THIS DEMOCRATIC SENATOR TRULY FEELS ABOUT THIS AMERICAN JUDICIAL INJUSTICE CONTINUING TO INFLICT GRAVE HARM ON THE BLACK & LATINO AMERICAN FAMILIES AND THEIR COMMUNITIES NATIONWIDE ??????
*** WHEN GOD?S FACE BECAME VERY RED ***
THE US SUPREME COURT GAVE ENEMY COMBATANTS FEDERAL APPEAL HC RIGHTS LAWYERS AND PROPER ACCESS TO US FEDERAL COURTS,AND POORER AMERICANS (MANY EVEN ON DEATH ROW) ARE DENIED PROPER FEDERAL APPEAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO OUR US FEDERAL COURTS OF APPEAL, AND ROTTING IN AMERICAN PRISONS NATIONWIDE ?????????
**** INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH THEIR FEDERAL APPEALS !
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE $LOWLY FINDING OUT HOW EA$Y IT I$ FOR MIDDLE CLA$$ AND WORKING POOR AMERICAN$ TO FALL VICTIM TO OUR U$ MONETARY JUDICIAL $Y$TEM.
****WHEN THE US INNOCENT WERE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ****
The prison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.
Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.
This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.
This devious and deceptive judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!
Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!
For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.
It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.
This FACADE and HORROR of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!
***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT, BECOME THE GUILTY!
A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE:
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM.
** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !
lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com
(424-247-2013)