No Substitute for Church Going

Mr. Tully speaks with an openness to truth yet unrevealed, truths yet untested, truths not bound by denomination.

Lest I make of myself a "god," I believe there is some wisdom to seeking the truths of the universe and/or the Divine in community.

Church (eccelsia) simply means "gathering place for an assembly."

There are many types of churches and communities, including this online assembly. Even those among us here who may live in a more solitary way (i.e., behind the computer keybaord) are seeking and sharing thoughts in this posting of messages....

What difference does it make if you play with your imaginary friends by yourself or in the company of other loons?

Gaby,

"Well, if you need a chruch to have family, intimacy, accountability, and friendship so be it."

---> You missed the point. NONE of those things, ALL being so critical to our lives, can be achieved through solitary prayer.

"I don't need a church and am very comfortable praying in solitude!"

---> Being outside of a church for half of my life, I can completely understand where you are coming from. And again, I'm not arguing against praying alone. My argument centered around the need for church, not in the sense that we need to make appearances, but that elements of being in church cannot be felt when one is home alone everyday.

"And indeed, I have family, friends, fellowhsip, intimacy, accountability, and a community spirit without having to go to church."

---> I would agree - to an extent. I felt a lot of those same things in my walk without Christ, but it wasn't until I gave my life to Him that I understood that the power of these things was magnified in His presence. I know, sounds corny, but it's true.

"Also, I don't know what kind of church you attend, but the traditional christian ones I have attended, both here and overseas, most certainly preach at you. Brimstone and hellfire included!"

---> I attend Columbia Baptist church in Falls Church, VA and I'm quite certain that most sermons are NOT filled with fire and brimstone. But to exclude such teachings altogether would also be a failure on the part of my pastor.

Thanks, Lepi!!!

By the way, Nevermore 53 = Gaby

Globalone,

"Church is not about attendance records or being "preached at". It's about community and fellowship. The notion that "going to church" entails mindless preaching and exchanging of scripture verses with other members is laughable and absurd. There is family, intimacy, accountability, and friendship. None of which can be obtained simply by praying in solitude."

Well, if you need a chruch to have family, intimacy, accountability, and friendship so be it.

I don't need a church and am very comfortable praying in solitude!

And indeed, I have family, friends, fellowhsip, intimacy, accountability, and a community spirit without having to go to church.

Also, I don't know what kind of church you attend, but the traditional christian ones I have attended, both here and overseas, most certainly preach at you. Brimstone and hellfire included!

"That's no reason for a no-go policy. I can't imagine a church and its members not being willing to accommodate the First Family."

Regarding going to church, the President and all the rest of us should do whatever we choose. I think it highly unlikely that Obama's effectiveness will be affected by his church attendance record.

It might, however, be affected by his recurring exposure to the best moral and ethical teachings that Christianity and various other sources promote.

The religious and/or church life of the President and his family should be (and of course are not) an entirely private matter. Hopefully, Obama will do a better job than Bush at keeping religion and politics separate.

globalone :
Nevermore53,

I'm sure a great many of us could go it alone if need be. So why have friends? or family? Why marry? Why have kids?
****************************************************************************************************
Believe it or not, some folks are happier without close friends and some folks choose not to marry and/or have children. Some folks are happiest when off by themselves, and some go so far as to move to remote locations in order to live in solitude. I value my time alone as much as I do my time with loved ones.

Church is not about attendance records or being "preached at". It's about community and fellowship. The notion that "going to church" entails mindless preaching and exchanging of scripture verses with other members is laughable and absurd. There is family, intimacy, accountability, and friendship. None of which can be obtained simply by praying in solitude.
****************************************************************************************************
All of the benefits of church membership can be found in other organizations as well. And you have to admit that most church services DO involve an hour or so of being preached at and scripture reading. I enjoy the services at my UU church, and I enjoy the Pagan gatherings for sabats. But I do most of my worshipping alone with my fingers in dirt.

"Plenty of people think they can go it alone--making up a faith and observing it privately."

And, to paraphrase Barack Obama, "Yes, they can!"

Those seeking a community and inspiration would be better off joining Red Sox Nation or going to a Patriots' game.

Joining a post-church New England Episcopal martini-fest would be o.k. too.

Nevermore53,

I'm sure a great many of us could go it alone if need be. So why have friends? or family? Why marry? Why have kids?

Church is not about attendance records or being "preached at". It's about community and fellowship. The notion that "going to church" entails mindless preaching and exchanging of scripture verses with other members is laughable and absurd. There is family, intimacy, accountability, and friendship. None of which can be obtained simply by praying in solitude.

So, if Obama were to attend an Episcopal church, would it be the gay-bashing version?

"A good church makes its members uncomfortable at least as often as it comforts and cares for them."

What a joke, the Episcopal 'church' *is* only interested in lying to people instead of telling them hard truths. A strategy that hasn't worked that well for them over the past half century or so.

And even here, he is conceiving of church more as a social club, than as the Body of Christ. Mr. Tully, don't you see no one's buying it? You went with the Scheiermachers and Fosdicks decades ago. Stop fishing around for more members to shore up your church's hurting finances.

While community is important, I think it's silly criticizing a President-elect for not making a circus of a weekly show of piety when, even with all the advance preparation, he's got a heck of a lot of work to be doing.

So he can get started right away cleaning up the messes of an outgoing President who *did* make big shows of piety, for all the good that did.

And, frankly, Colin:

"The truth suggests that gods do not exist. Apollo. Aphrodite and Zeus and the hundreds of other gods our ancestors made up are good evidence that inventing gods is what we do.

"Time we dumped the god hypothesis, for which there is not a scrap of evidence."

I find it wearying, the intellectual laziness of some atheists who try to use the Gods for some object lesson about how *monotheists* see the Gods, assuming Pagans, ancient or modern, depended upon the same kinds of claims and absolutes and beliefs as the Baptists down the street.

If you want to criticize *us,* go ahead and criticize *us,* ...don't ignorantly use the Gods in your endless tug of war with the monotheists over your respective absolutes.

The last thing that religious folk are interested in is the truth. If they were looking for truth they'd check out what science says about the existence of an invisible skyfairy. It is absurd.

The truth suggests that gods do not exist. Apollo. Aphrodite and Zeus and the hundreds of other gods our ancestors made up are good evidence that inventing gods is what we do.

Time we dumped the god hypothesis, for which there is not a scrap of evidence.

Dear Rev Tully

Happy Thanksgiving Day!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

I suggest that the Obamas use Sundays for taking in the sites, then for ordering in Chinese food or pizza.

I also agree- and especially because the church is not that welcoming to those who are not of its adherents. I once sat through an easter service with a boyfriend and his family only to hear the minister go on about how the Jews killed Jesus.

the most spiritual place I've ever been was at the WTC recovery site. For 9 months I experienced first hand the best of what people can be. There were so many amazing experiences, including services at the cross. we all went- not because we were christians (I'm not), but because there was a spirituality there that was strongly linked to the site and the souls of the dead. I can't really explain it, but all of us who worked there will say pretty much the same thing. People are remarkable- not their churches.

I'm sick and tired of people tying churchgoing with some sort of spiritual, moral or ethical superiority. I'm really sick and tired of hearing atheists, agnostics and those of other faiths denigrated or overlooked. I think the day every person of faith accepts them with the same enthusiasm and respect they accept fellow church members, they will have taken a giant step toward maturity.

Obama is the president elect of us all. He seems to realize that very well. Now if only the rest of the country would realize that.

"Churches are communities grounded in tradition, collectively searching for truth, supporting members as they try to practice what is preached."

Reverend,
You are right when you state that churuches are grounded in tradition, that is precisely why I don't go there.

As far as collectively searching for the truth, that is not quite correct. You are only collectively searching for 'your' truth, not 'the' truth. There is a big difference.

I think people can go it alone and I know many who have. There is nothing weird about them, they just don't like to be preached to. They are perfectly fine 'praying' in solitude and are contend without the blessing of an institution.

I would disagree with Mr.s Tully's sentence

"Churches are communities grounded in tradition, collectively searching for truth"

The word I have a problem with is searching. Churches rarely search for the truth other than the "truth" that the church teaches.

We are far from discovering the "truth" about God and the universe.

There is nothing wrong with taking someone else's truth. For some people that works and there are many benefits of the church community. True searching is not one of them.

I agree LEPIDOPTERYX. Fellowship is good but judging someone’s spirituality by their lack of church attendance is out of bounds. Claiming that people are “making” up their religion is insulting. What did the disciples of Jesus do if not “make it up” as they went along? One will claim that God was guiding them but there is no definitive proof for that belief we just take it at face value.

Perhaps if more people took time out to “make up” their spiritual development and practice there would be less dogma and intolerance. Church and religious gatherings are not for everyone. God may be for everyone but certainly church is not.

While I enjoy the fellowship and cameraderie of attending the UU church in my area and gatherings for sabat rituals with my fellow Pagans, I find that I feel closest to the Divine when I'm alone, preferably in my garden.