The rest of us should be very wary

"As Jews we sought political self-determination, and we got it."

I do not buy that notion of collective responsibility for decisions made many years ago. It is nice to have one place where Jews can do whatever their skills allow them to do without accepting that as a possibly temporary privilege from the ruling group.

"Now we must behave in accordance with principles of justice and in accordance with international law as an expression of universally agreed-upon principles of justice."

No more so than any other nation.

Why should only one of the many nations admitted to the UN since 1947 be there on a temporary basis forever?

"If you accept the writings in the old testament as truth hasn't the Israelites always been 'expanionist'; and always been 'superior' to all others - and both with God's blessing and help no less!!!!"

That is certainly not what those writings say.

"When the Palestinians and the larger Arab world accept that the Israelis have a legitimate moral right to be there, then there will be peace."

That is true.

"We curve up arab land to give to the Jews, but we don't even care to ask the inhabitants whether they agree or not."

India was partitioned at the same time. Both were divided between the two groups living there and populations moved.

Only in one place are folks strenuously trying to redo population moves and assuming that just one of the world's many peoples must always be temporary inhabitants forever.

"We have, theologically, a return to an Old Testament God who commands conquest, in contrast to a New Testament God who requires community and a commitment to human rights."

Not in Jewish theology.

"It is time the Jewish people stop discriminating morally against non-Jewish people. Much so-called persecution of the Jews is nothing but Jewish people demanding to be treated differently from the way they treat others."

That is a very old bit of nonsense which sadly is still fashionable in the best of circles.

I support Israel --right or wrong.
God save Israel from the Hollywood Jews.
A good Episcoplaian, FDR, did nothing while 6 million Jews went down the drain. He could have put all of them in Texas and have room left over.. But what did he do--like the respondents to this subject -- talk.
The Moslems have said for almost 60 years that they will kill the Jews.
We can not let them.
james whalen
the irish catholic existential society

Zak wrote: "Israel is not expansionist"

If you accept the writings in the old testament as truth hasn't the Israelites always been 'expanionist'; and always been 'superior' to all others - and both with God's blessing and help no less!!!!

If the Middle East is ever going to correct itself wouldn't it be logical that the whole area would need to quit 'living a lie'? or many lies? If the world has 'evolved' to where the writings are reasonably and clearly known to be for what we today would call political writings isn't it time that that be acknowledged?

Amen, Brother Nash.....

Nice reasoning.....

We curve up arab land to give to the Jews, but we don't even care to ask the inhabitants whether they agree or not. They're not white, so why should their opinion count?

We have a war with Egypt, Jordan and Syria; but that gives us the right to kick out the native Palestinian population out and covet their land.

We bought the land with money....funny why 2 million palestinians are living in refugee camps TODAY. Wouldn't they use their money to buy land elsewhere? Why are they still living in refugee camps? Why not let them buy land in Palestine?

I didn't know that in Jewish law, if you got to kick out the inhabitant of a house and your wife had a child there, the title of the property gets transfered from the original inhabitant to your child.

Israel isn't expansionist. I guess those yamulka wearing M16 toting nutjobs building illegal settlements in the west bank didn't get the memo.

The stupid Palestinians are blowing their chance to get their own state. But, but all of so called Israel is actually...their land. How dare these non white people ask for what belonged to them in the first place!!!

Israel is the only real democracy in that region, as the good Mr. Tully claims, but is it? A Russian or Ethiopian jew with no link to so called Israel is automatically given citizenship, but the spouse of an Arab is not eligible. Does that smack of democracy to you? There are over 2 million arabs in the West bank that are not eligible to vote. Does that smack of democracy to you? Israel's democracy is akin to the Apartheid South Africa or pre-civil war America. Calling Israel a democracy is an insult to the very concept of democracy.

The fundamental reason for the conflict in the Middle East is that the Arabs do not accept that the Israelis have a moral right to be there.

This has always been the fundamental problem and remains so today.

A majority of Israelis have come to accept that the Palestinians have a moral right to be there and are willing to live in peace with them. But, the Arabs see the very existence of Israel as a moral injustice, and they are encouraged in this misguided belief by a great many (dare we way anti-Semitic) Christians in the West.

When the Palestinians and the larger Arab world accept that the Israelis have a legitimate moral right to be there, then there will be peace. All the rest is commentary.

Let's clear some things up:

Israel is not expansionist. Rather, Israel has been shrinking for a long time. Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt. Israel turned over major population centers to Arafat (although has been forced to reconquer them for security reasons). Israel recently withdrew from all of Gaza. Israel pulled out of it's security belt in South Lebanon.

Jews didn't simply "throw out" Palestinians. Jews bought land in Palestine. By 1947 they were 1/3 of the population. The land was partitioned. The Jews accepted the deal; the Arabs rejected it and embarked on a war of genocide to rid Palestine of all Jews. They lost, and some 600,000 fled or were expelled.

After 1948 the Arabs states began expelling or forcing Jews from Arab lands to flee, and most went to Israel. About 900,000 to be exact. That's more Jewish refugees from Arab lands than Arab refugees from Palestine.

The Palestinians have had many opportunities to have a state and they've blown them all. They are blowing their latest as I type. Gaza has been used as a launching pad for missile attacks. Hamas is their elected leadership.

Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, but anti-Semities will ALWAYS be critical of Israel. Criticizing Israel while ignoring the facts, some of which I laid out, isn't anti-Semitic but is certainly ignorant.

Mr. Nash's posting is a prime example of the rabid type of anti-Israel thinking that certainly can be considered anti-semitic. It is a fact that not all Israelis originated from Europe and in fact a sizable number are refugees from Arab lands such as Yemen, Iraq as well as Iran. There are also numerous Jews who were born in Israel long after their "land grabbing" brethren have passed on.

Read secular citizen's post, Mr. Tully? Let's compromise. Let the Israelis stay and allow the Palestinian refugees that were driven away by the jewish settlers to return to their ancestor's homes in the Holy land. Or is your religion/faith too bigoted to allow that possibility?

If the first-inhabitant-gets-the-land rule applied, Israel would have to move out to make way for the descendants of the Amalekites, the Hittites, the Jebusites and the Amorites and the Canaanites -- all people the original Israelites drove out of their homes to make homes for themselves in the "promised land."

Clearly that's lunacy, as is basing a claim to land in the here and now on a religious text.

In any case, Zionism's roots aren't in religion, but in politics. This discussion about whether criticism of Israel is antisemitism belongs on the front pages of our newspapers, not on a obscure blog on religion, as interesting as this blog has been.

Israelis don't have to leave Israel, but they should allow Palestinians to return to the homes they lost in war a mere 60 years ago.

The Nash/Mickey thing is entertaining, but to use ancient history as some sort of basis for sorting out a very recent major documented historical atrocity really is nonsense. Why didn't Germany and maybe a bit of Poland have a nice sized bite taken out of them and given as a homeland for the Jews? I'm sure someone has a really good and non religious-history-nonsense argument against this idea. Poland is now so devoid of Jews that Poles now display a sort of faddish mock fascination for their culture. Palestinians show no such fascination at all.

OK, Time to pull out my facts. Some of this is a repeat of info I posted on another thread. A few years ago, I sat in on an NIH seminar [as a non-scientist] and heard a scientist mention that Jews and Palestinians are the same genome, but I don’t recall ever reading about it or hearing about it since.

With just a little googling, I find that there was indeed an article on this subject in the journal “Human Immunology.” I’ve copied the NIH – PubMed abstract below, but the plot thickens: the article itself was retracted from Human Immunology AFTER publication for political reasons – the science was never questioned. Here’s the link and opening paragraphs of a UK article written about it.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,605798,00.html

“Journal axes gene research on Jews and Palestinians”

Robin McKie, science editor, Sunday November 25, 2001, The Observer
A keynote research paper showing that Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost identical has been pulled from a leading journal.
Academics who have already received copies of Human Immunology have been urged to rip out the offending pages and throw them away.
Such a drastic act of self-censorship is unprecedented in research publishing and has created widespread disquiet, generating fears that it may involve the suppression of scientific work that questions Biblical dogma.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So, going strictly from genetics, it looks like palestinians and Jews would have equal claims, because they are the same people - Canaanites.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11543891&dopt=Abstract

“The origin of Palestinians and their genetic relatedness with other Mediterranean populations”

Authors: Arnaiz-Villena A.1; Elaiwa N.; Silvera C.; Rostom A.; Moscoso J.; Gomez-Casado E.; Allende L.; Varela P.; Martnez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences. The relatively close relatedness of both Jews and Palestinians to western Mediterranean populations reflects the continuous circum-Mediterranean cultural and gene flow that have occurred in prehistoric and historic times. This flow overtly contradicts the demic diffusion model of western Mediterranean populations substitution by agriculturalists coming from the Middle East in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. PMID: 11543891 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

If you’re interested in the whole gene article, you can get a PDF version by googling the article’s complete title – as seen above in the abstract.

Gee. I have an idea.

Let's start with this:

HUMANS are on the earth.

ALL HUMANS survive on the earth by working to feed and shelter themselves.

ALL HUMANS have the same interests in survival: feeding and sheltering themselves.

ALL HUMANS are responsible for their INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS.

ALL GOVERNMENTS are run by HUMANS.

ALL GOVERNMENTS are responsible for THEIR actions.

NOW....(and I wish not) - insert your ORGANIZED RELIGION "WEAPON OF CHOICE".

Organized Religion is the bane of civilization.

Again, Mr. Nash your logic is impeccable. Save for the minor fact that it is you who called for the exile of Jews from Israel, not I. So now you’ve upped the ante. I understand your argument to be that the Jews can stay if they can prove that they are the direct decedents of the original ancient Jews of 1010 b.c.e. (it might be hard to find appropriate birth records, but we’ll leave that for another discussion). I was talking about the moral balancing test you seem to be proposing for who can stay and who must go, while you seem to desire debating ways to work out the kinks in your plan.

Anyway, good work, equating the forced relocation of Palestinians with the forced relocation and murder of European Jews. I think you said, “to drive out an Arab family from their home, is the WORST RACIST CRIMINAL UNDERTAKING EVER COMMITTED IN HUMAN HISTORY, and pales in comparison to what Hitler did to the jews in the first place.” What it shows is your complete lack of objectivity on this matter and, for some reason, your searing hatred for Israelis in particular, and Jews in general.

Oh, by the way I hope you can detect the strong sarcasm in my message; I really am trying to lay it on thick.

Ms. Carrie....I have nothing against the Jews, but Zionism is plain racism. And any christian who supports Zionism is NOT a true christian at all. Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, was an atheist himself. The son was a homosexual who committed suicide and his daugther was a prostitute who died from a drug overdose. No true Christian can support Zionism.

ok Mr. Micky...what proof do you have that the current jewish land grabbers are IN FACT the REAL decendents of the people that were driven away 3000 thousand years ago? Are you trying to tell me that in 3000 years no Jew actually married out of his community? or his/her race for that matter? Or nobody else converted to Judaism in 3000 years? Just because a person is a jew entitles him citizenship to Palestine and gives him full authority to drive out an Arab family from their home, is the WORST RACIST CRIMINAL UNDERTAKING EVER COMMITTED IN HUMAN HISTORY, and pales in comparison to what Hitler did to the jews in the first place.

Mr. Nash,

As for the characterization of my response as idiotic, I'll let that pass. Perhaps you missed the sarcasm in my Native American analogy to your “go home Jews” solution. It was not intended as a justification to Israel’s treatment of the Palestinian people, but rather as an example of the practical absurdity you proposed (send the Israeli land grabbers back to Europe and send the American land grabbers back to Europe). However, your fangs are still showing. Why did you completely ignore the historic fact that the Jews occupied Israel before the Palestinians? You are the one who proposed the repatriation solution, why don’t you stand by it? Oh, I get it . . . sending people back to a place they left a generation before is only appropriate if it is the Jews who are being sent back.

Criticism of America might be considered more valid by Americans than criticism of Israel. Most people are loathe to criticize themselves.

As an American nothing I could say about the wrong things Israel does would equal the absolutely hellish things Bush has done to America and the world.

Anyone who claims to be a christian, yet so blatantly speaks out against the Jews (God's people, by the way) should read their Bibles--especially the prophets. Anyone else (unbelievers) at least have an excuse for being ignorant about the importance of Israel in the "big scheme of things."

It is the history of violence against Jews by European Christians that makes me proud to be an American. One thing that America can truly take pride in is its lack of anti-Semitism. Remember that when Jews talk of anti-Semitism and its dangerously poisonous effects, they cite as examples the pogroms and holocausts of Jews in Europe. America has no such tradition of hate like that. America is guilty of discrimination and segregation against Jews and blacks and others too. Its worst crimes, which were committed against Native Americans more than 100 years ago, were recompensed beginning in the generation where they occured and continue to this day.

To Mr Sompayrac (who posted on February 26, 2007 at 10:40 PM):

I think there is more connection between Judaism and Christianity than there is between Taoism and Islam, because Christianity is derived from Judaism, whereas Islam is not derived from Taoism. (Perhaps Muslims will correct me if I'm wrong here.)

However, you are right to point out that Jews and Christians hold very different views about Jesus, who after all is central to the Christian religion.

Indeed, we could say that Islam is somewhere in between Christianity and Judaism. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of God, even though not actually the 'Son of God' (i.e. God in human form), as the Christians believe he was.

Since Islam is somewhere in between Christianity and Judaism, on the important question of who Jesus was, the idea of people from the two 'extreme' religions (Judaism and Christianity) making war on the 'moderates' (i.e. the Muslims) seems quite absurd. But that's because the proposed 'war on terror', which seems to be turning into a war against all Arabs and all Muslims, is really about oil and land, rather than God or Jesus.

I think the differences between Judaism and Christianity are being soft-pedalled in the interests of a political alliance between Israel and America.

With regard to Micky's idiotic response,

I too ask why should native Americans pay the price for religious intolerence in Europe? When is coveting land and mass killing of local inhabitants justified? Just because our ancestors where involved in this heinous crimes against humanity, should Israel be allowed to carry out the same in the 21st century? Where is the outrage? What seems 'venom' to you, millions of people paided with much blood and suffering. Thanks a lot, American style Christianity!

No wonder the decendents of the animals who wiped out the native American population are the ones cheering Israel's despicable ways to force Palestinians out of their homeland. But sorry, history will not repeat itself this time. One genocide is way too many.

Mr Smith, I'm not a 'born-again' Christian myself. However, I think we agree with each other, more or less.

There have been times when some of the Christians developed 'anti-Semitism' - a suspicion of Jews, and a hatred for them, that was totally irrational.

Christians should try to be aware of their own feelings and motives regarding Jews, and where the feelings might have come from.

It's important that Christians should take an unflinching look at their own history, and acknowledge the times when they have truly been prejudiced. E.g. the fabrication of the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zionism', the Dreyfuss Affair, the pogroms and discriminatory laws, and - of course - the holocaust.

It's also important that Christians should try to look at things from the Jewish point of view. And the Arab point of view as well. They should try to reach balanced decisions, and avoid the irrationality and unfairness that has been seen in the past.

However, it doesn't necessarily follow that *every* criticism of Jewish behaviour is totally irrational and unfair.

If - after careful examination of every side of the argument - a Christian still comes to the conclusion that some of the Jews are behaving in the wrong way, then I believe that the Christian should speak up.

No ethnic or religious group can ever be considered 'beyond criticism'. We should all expect to account for our actions, whether we be Jewish, Christian or anything else.

While it is very true that I am a 'born again' believer and as such a conservative Christian, but what does most of this discussion have to do with the question? The short answer is yes; you can criticize Israel and not be anti-Semitic. Putting aside God's plan for the world, as a believer I have and will continue to make many bad decisions (and good ones I hope). Why it any different for those who run Israel and any other country for that matter? The answer is of course it’s possible. I just don't get it. To ask the question is the real question itself.

Christians have often had difficulty in relating to Jews. It's a problem that goes way back, to the difficult relationship that Jesus himself had with Judaism. And it intensified when Christians - in order to preserve the spiritual insights which they believed Jesus had given them - had to split off from Judaism and 'go Gentile'.

I think that Christians have a tendency to see Jews as EITHER god OR the devil, totally good OR totally evil, with no room for any space in the middle. Whereas in fact, most of the Jews - like the rest of us - are somewhere in between.

Given this dangerous tendency of many Christians to 'flip-flop' between total admiration and total hatred of Jews, it's entirely understandable that Jews should attempt to control Christians, and the way that Christians react.

However, Israel today seems to be set on an expansionist course, and seems to be in alliance with various western interests related to the west's need for energy.

As a result of this, Christians in the west may soon be called on to lay down their lives for Israel. So unfortunately, those of us who either ARE Christian, or who (like me) come from a Christian background, HAVE to start making judgements.

Despite the dangers of being biased towards one side or the other, we can't just leave it all to the Jews and the Arabs. Would that we could!

I shan't claim to have a personal hotline to God that's much better than everyone else's. However, let us start from the premise that God made both the Jews and the Arabs, and everyone/everything else.

If God loves what he/she made, then I think that God would like the Christians to develop themselves a bit. To understand what's going on under their own bonnets.

In short, God would like Christians to become fair judges rather than 'flip-flops'.

Interesting analysis Mr. Nash. Let me take a stab at your reasoning:

Some European Monarchs persecute a lot of devoutly religious Christians. So, the solution is to grab some Native American land, drive the people onto reservations and kill those who won't agree to leave. Then create more wars and almost completely destroy the various local inhabitants and their communities. Why did the Native Americans pay the price for religious intolerence in Europe?

Let's go one step further, a succession of land and money hungry rulers wanted to grab jewish land that had been the Kingdom of Israel since around 1010 b.c.e. These despots (Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander the Great, Ptolemy I, Caliph al-Hakim, to name a few) kill or exile the jews from their own land.

See, Mr. Nash, if you really want to play the childlish game of "who was there first," I'm afraid you just gave the win to those jews who you seem to want to "go back to whichever countries they came from." Maybe you should try to inject some reason instead of venom into this debate.

Let me get this straight.A European Christian dictator systematically kills a lot of jews. So the solution is to grab some arab land, drive the people away and kill those who won't agree to leave. Then create more wars and kill more of the local population, and severely clamp on the remaining survivors and make their lives miserable so they leave - the very people who had nothing do with the systematic massacre of jews in the first place. Why are the Palestinians paying the price for the Holocaust? Does that make any sense at all? We have had over 600,000 arabs dead thanks to the Jews in Israel. As far as I'm concerned, the jews who lived in so called Israel before 1949 can stay. The reminder should go back to whichever countries they came from and try. The country should revert back to its original Palestine name. The displaced Palestine population should be allowed to return and no more blood should be shed. Mr. Tully, you pray to a false God or you have no clear concept of religion, because no just God would sanction the criminal acts perpetuated on the helpless Palestinians in the name of zionism.

MARK tells us: There are many Jewish groups, many of them in Israel, who are standing up for Justice. some identify with jewish tradition, some are merely Israeli, no religious affiliation (e.g. Jeff Halper's Israel Committee Against House Demolitions icahd.org).

ANN O. replies: It seems to me that this brings up the question again of just what is a "Jewish" state? (Another important semantic problem.) Everyone seems to agree that de facto the new Israel was formed as a refuge for people called "Jews" who had been discriminated against abominably. But what is a "Jew"? AGain, there are many definitions. And in which sense should Israel be called "a Jewish state"?

So who should be offered automatic citizenship? When we look at why Israel was founded, we see that it was for people who were not wanted anywhere. But this seems to be true of the current Palestinians! Nobody seems to want them. No, Iraq and Iran and Saudi Arabia don't welcome them either, do they?)

Complexity, compexity, complexity! By the way, I love your metaphor of "injecting a dye" to figure out just what is going on. Would that there were a such a reliable diagnostic tool for the Middle East.

Thank you for your very perceptive and informative posts. They help this confused old woman.

Ann O.

To Ann O:

Thank you for your comments. No time for a long response but I agree wholeheartedly. Of course these traditions are as complex as the humans and cultures that make them up. Over the centuries they evolve, with enormous diversity, in interaction with the historical context and the cultures with which they come into contact. The OT and NT reflect this, naturally, for the span of time that covers the period of their composition.

I guess the point I make focusses in on the particular issues around conquest and political power. There is a Constantinian stream within Judaism and it is in full flower now that we Jews have a state. The "prophetic" stream is not operative there -- some Jews, like me, are calling on it now. Some Jews, many so-called "progressives" calling for justice for the Palestinians, want to base their call on themes and concepts in the laws and lore of Rabbinic Judaism, the point being, "we Jews have always stood up for justice." But we must beware of this -- concepts like "help the stranger in your lands" Who is this "stranger in your land?" Whose land?

Anyway, this kind of discourse can go on forever and it's important, but that's why the temptation is to oversimplify. You are right -- we MUST be cautious about that to avoid villifying one tradition and lifting up another. It's not that simple, and it's dangerous. My aim has been to call Jews to account, to self-examination, to scare them a bit or to shock them out of their sense of entitlement -- a jewish trait, I'm afraid (OK, historically conditioned), and that statement I will stand by. Look at yourselves! I want to say to them. And check out what liberal Christians (when they let themselves) are saying about this! There are many Jewish groups, many of them in Israel, who are standing up for Justice. some identify with jewish tradition, some are merely Israeli, no religious affiliation (e.g. Jeff Halper's Israel Committee Against House Demolitions icahd.org).

What got this started was Bill Tully's evocation of theology and scripture to -- in my opinion - get dangerously close to justifying Israel's illegal and immoral and criminal actions. These strains do exist in the religious traditions -- you can find it in Islam as well, as you point out, along with completely different messages. I think we need to inject dye to see them clearly and bring them to full awareness.

Mark

I'm an Episcopalian. And I don't think there is any difference - in my eyes or in God's eyes between Jew and non-Jew. "Jewish" is a religious distinction - not a racial one. It is time non-Jews recognized that. I refuse to compromise the welfare of my children or my nation to act in the interest of Israel or the Jewish people when that interest offends my sense of Justice or self-interest.

It is time Israel and the Israelis started making friends with its neighbors as America has had to do.

It is time the Jewish people stop discriminating morally against non-Jewish people. Much so-called persecution of the Jews is nothing but Jewish people demanding to be treated differently from the way they treat others.

Father Tully you are no religious leader to me. I will never accept communion from your hand. You are just a self-acknowledged bigot justifying the one form of bigotry that will bring you praise in the media by calling it God's will.

Mr. Tully,
It seems like you are threating us by asking us to be wary of criticizing the state of Israel. I will tell you something, I will not be wary. I feel that the Israeli state has no right to exist in its current form because throughout history the Jewish peoples have continued to commit atrocities once they have gained control and that is the same situation which is occurring today. Since gaining power, they have continued to deny rights to the non-Jewish peoples. They have treated non-Jewish peoples as second class citizens and are even worse that the Nazis

MARK BRAVERMAN tells us: What I see now is that with the creation of a Jewish State, we have a full-blown Constantinian Judaism. We have, theologically, a return to an Old Testament God who commands conquest, in contrast to a New Testament God who requires community and a commitment to human rights.

ANN O. replies: I think that your remark about the God of the Old Testament v. the God of the New Testament is something of an oversimplification of what the Bible says in different places. In some places Jahweh is indeed described as a tyrant who commands war and even, to our way of thinking, injustices. But in other places Jahweh is often referred to as "God of all nations" who wishes good for all peoples, for everyone. So what does "Judaism" teach about God as blood-thirsty v. God as all-loving? Well,what do we mean by "Judaism"?

ISTM, we have all attempted to turn the history of the Jews into some one reality which somehow has persisted through a whole long historical process , a sort of Platonic "Judaism" that has reality apart from individual Jews. And we have done exactly the same sort of thing with the historical processes which we have named "Christianity" and "Islam".

But these processes have no persisting unity. They are composed of individual human beings who come and go in time and place, who do NOT all believe the same things, who have not all interpreted God's messages in the same ways. So to say that "Judaism proclaims this" or "Christianity believes that" does not reflect any particular fact. "Some Jews have proclaimed this", "Some Christians have believed that" and "Some Muslims have believed the other" are the historical truths. And the same thing is true of "the" behavior of "Judaism" and "Christianity" and "Islam".

There is no historically persistent "Judaism" nor "Christianity" nor "Islam". There are only Jews and Christians and Muslims who have been related in different places and different times and who have believed different things and behaved in very different ways.

ISTM that recognizing the very *complexity* of the world and history, especially in the Middle East, is one of our main difficulties. And our over-simplified language leads us sometimes to implications that are false. "Judaism" and "Christianity" and "Islam" do not refer to single continuing things, and we can at least avoid using those terms when they lead us to think there are such persistent, homogenous realities. Oh sure, over-simplifications are often useful, but not when we're trying to understand complexities such as the Middle East.

(And I also think that the phrase "the Middle East" which I just used is another one of those historical over-simplifications. Sigh.)

Ann O.

i second that mr braverman-i think you are indeed well named-

Mr Mark Braverman,

You have no idea how glad I am since you came into these On Faith threads. Look forward to reading more posts by and from you.

Respecfully

I'm very grateful for this thoughtful dialogue and, more especially, for the respectful tone. I'll watch it and try to respond further. As you might expect from my job title, I'm in the middle of a heavy weekend of teaching and preaching just now, and I can't promise anything of substance immediately.

One thing I will say for now: Like many theological discussions with emotional and personal overtones, this subject necessarily goes beyond the merely rational. My caution comes from the notion that however rational we might be, and however just individual arguements may be, there is high likelihood of the rule of unintended consequences coming into play. That and the sensitivities associated with anti-Semitism are, after all, what the original question was about.

and the "I" above is me, E Favorite

To Mark - Point of calrification -- the "Bill" I referred to above is Bill Tully. I think you meant to address your post to Stan.

Other than that, right on!

To Bill,

Thank you for raising what I think is an issue closely related to the challenge that I threw out made to Rev. Tully. I am not a theologian, but this issue, in addition to wonderful dialogues I have been having with some clergy, has initiated some study and thinking for me. I would be grateful for your input, your responses Rev Tully, and anyone else who is thinking about this. Also please help clear up anything I may have gotten wrong about this:

The issue of anti-Semitism is complex and deeply embedded in two thousand years of Western history. Among liberal Christian theologians and religious leaders, Supercessionism – the concept that Christianity, embodied in the Gospels, came to replace Judaism as God’s plan for humankind – has become the Great Evil. The argument, well supported by history, is that this idea, developed in the first centuries after Christ and central to Christian belief and doctrine, laid the groundwork for anti-Semitism. But in their zeal to correct the injustices of the past, and to in effect atone for anti-Semitism, Christian leaders and thinkers are in danger of losing sight of an important facet of early Christian thought. Christianity, in its reframing of the relationship of God to humanity, produced a revolution -- in effect, it moved the concept of “Israel” from the tribal to the communal. In the Christian reframing, God’s commitment to humanity through his election of the seed of Abraham, assigned a special role in history, was transformed into God’s love for humankind and the invitation to all to become part of a universal spiritual community. This was a great contribution, a great step forward, and it has special relevance today, as all religions struggle to move from “Constantinian,” power-based religions to communities based on a commitment to diversity, human rights and Justice. The choice between religion based on and consorting with political power and oppression, and religion grounded in a concept of community is one that must be faced by all the faiths. Jews and Christians must talk about this, indeed they must come together with their Muslim friends and colleagues to together confront what may be the central challenge of our times. We stifle this discussion at our peril.

What I see now is that with the creation of a Jewish State, we have a full-blown Constantinian Judaism. We have, theologically, a return to an Old Testament God who commands conquest, in contrast to a New Testament God who requires community and a commitment to human rights. And I see this not only in the ranks of the Jewish "settler movement," but in the policies of the secular Israeli govt (secular yet of a "Jewish State?" and the Jewish "establishment" here in the USA. Where the OT prophets fit into this is not clear. I see very little of the prophetic tradition playing in modern Israel or among modern Jews when it comes to Israel. The issue of the Christian Zionists is something else entirely (go to Christianzionism.org to see some great work being done on that). The best stuff I know is coming out of Sabeel -- Palestinian Liberation Theology -- Rev. Naim Ateek -- and Jewish Liberation Theology -- Marc Ellis.

MB

After such an evocative exchange, words fail me except to say that I’m grateful to you, Bill, for posting an essay on this sensitive subject and to you, Mark, for challenging him. I am filled with facts on the genetic and archeological realities of Israel but confused and poorly informed about the political realities. I’ll be watching how this particular discussion unfolds with great interest. Thanks for getting it off to a great start.

To: Rev. Tully

You wrote: "My own faith and worldview begin in the crucible of what I believe to be God’s revelation to the Jews. Nothing in my Christianity has meaning without that foundation..."

Well, it is time for you and Christianity to re-define Christianity without the basis of God's revelation to the Jews as clearly the writings attributed to Moses were composed for political agenda. Begin with the Gospel of Mark and Jesus of Nazareth appearing to John the Baptist.

Forget all the nonsense of tracing the ancestry of a virgin birth through a male associate, - and without written records yet.

We, the world, like and enjoy the Christmas story, but it is time for Christianity to realize that whatever value the writings about the Israelites being God's chosen people who are to rule the world has served whatever purpose it had and it is time for the world to move along to something else.

I tend to feel that intellectually a case can be made that the/a (Holy) Ghost, maybe even that of Jesus of Nazareth, is active in the world. Clearly communications can and do take place outside of our normal understanding. Maybe the Jewish people in thinking they alone had control of God have missed this point. Surely, a true acceptance that Providence is active in managing all the world leads to a toal different concept of reality.

So do the world a favor and redefine Christianity, begin with the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth and drop Revelations, and develop a consensus moral code for all the peoples of the world to live by.

If the God of the Universe has given us brains and an intellectual capacity to reason surely It expects us to use them/it and to improve the human condition as we go along our way.

To you Reverend Tully, I will speak directly and bluntly, as I have done to other Protestant clergy who I respect and honor for compassionately and courageously wading into this issue fraught with so much conflict and peril. You do precisely as Jesus would have done -- in fact did, when faced with evil and injustice, especially within his own people. So to you I say: do not, out of a sense of responsibility for anti-Semitism, give the Jewish people a free pass. Do not confuse anti-Semitism with critique of Israel, and in so doing fail to hold Jews accountable for our choices and our actions, as members of the human community, as individuals, and as a nation state -- especially as a nation state. To make this mistake, to allow yourselves to be – I will use the word – bullied by the threat of the charge of anti-Semitism, is to commit a pernicious fallacy. As Jews we sought political self-determination, and we got it. Now we must behave in accordance with principles of justice and in accordance with international law as an expression of universally agreed-upon principles of justice. As Jews, we are confronted daily with this choice as we witness the illegal and oppressive actions of the Jewish State toward the Palestinian people it is so rapidly displacing. Empowerment – political empowerment – presents a mighty challenge to values. The Prophets knew this well, continually speaking this truth to the power structures of their day. To the crushed and exiled Jewish people of his time, Second Isaiah declared that redemption and comfort was coming, but only when the people acknowledged the divine meaning of their suffering. To my coreligionists in Israel and America, I say that we will ultimately survive as a people only to the extent that we can understand how our own suffering makes us part of humankind, and responsible for suffering wherever and whenever it happens. It was Roberta Feuerlicht, the Jewish ethicist who famously wrote, “Judaism survived centuries of persecution without a state; it must now learn how to survive despite a state.”

Jews who do not want to criticize Israel are not lovers of Zion, they are not friends of Israel. We stifle or avoid this dialogue at our peril. (see my response to panelist Jonathan Sarna, also posted today). Please, please be careful that you do not collude in this madness by indirectly supporting this avoidance and this denial.

Perhaps we can continue this dialogue - I would very much welcome that. If you do, may I suggest that you go to http://www.besobold.net/~fccol/sermon/sermon20061203.htm. You'll find a sermon that I preached at The First Congregational Church of Old Lyme during this past Advent season, titled: "The Light of Prophecy, My People's Shadow, and the Living Stones: An American Jew's Journey to The Holy Land."
Blessings, Mark Braverman