My God Doesn't Need "Christian" Nation

God could care less about politics.

The only spin God's interested in is the rotation of the planets...

Another bona fide wacko.

Claiming that a nation should not follow Jesus Christ (i.e his teachings), yet claiming to be a follower of Christ.

I'm telling all you who trust in Jesus to beware of these wolves in sheeps' clothing.

Raging waves, clouds with no rain.

The trouble with the Lefty interpretation of the Establishment clause is that it is miles apart from that of the founders. It only dates from the 1940s when the U.S. Supreme Court set aside nearly 150 years of jurisprudence that took a more accommodationist approach to the establishment clause.

Had the founders intended to ban an informal connection between Christianity and government, then how does one explain the persistence of blasphemy laws well into the 20th century? Or wouldn’t that intent have been obvious to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court in the 1824 case of Updegraph v. Commonwealth, which held:
“…the assertion is once more made, that Christianity never was received as part of the common law of this Christian land; and it is added, that if it was, it was virtually repealed by the constitution of the United States, and of this state, as inconsistent with the liberty of the people, the freedom of religious worship… Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law of Pennsylvania… the constitution of the United States has made no alteration, nor in the great body of the laws which was an incorporation of the common law doctrine of Christianity, as suited to the condition of the colony, and without which no free government can long exist.”

The Pa., Supreme Court repudiated the notion that the U.S. Constitution invalidated Christianity's place in government.

If you want an opinion closer to yours, you might consider quoting Lenin, circa. 1905:
""Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state. ... Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

America was founded by Christians who had recently seen their european home countries in virtual civil war due to sectarian (Protestant/Catholic) violence. They knew from personal experience that when goverment and religion join together that the christian principles of Mercy, Love and Peace are often trampled by goverment officials. They knew that separation of church and state is the best protection for christianity.

The merger between the Christian Right and the GOP has created an unholy alliance between McChurch, the dispenser of cheap grace, and national political leadership.

God has spoken to our President through the faithful word of such luminaries as Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson and Dr. Dobson. The statement, "We are going to win in Iraq!," has special meaning. It means that we are going to assist God in accelerating Armageddon.

Thus far, things seem to be right on target - a war is about to break out in Gaza; the Taliban is regaining strength in Afghanistan; Iran, the 18th largest nation in the world, is flexing its muscles now that the stabilizing presence of Iraq has been removed; terrorism continues to be orchestrated from the caves of Northern Pakistan by He-Who-Can-Run-But-Can't-Hide.

Dispensationalist Christians are rejoicing! They can't wait until the blood of our dear friends, the people of Israel, runs three-feet deep on the Plains of Megiddo!

On the other hand, read my book, McChurched: 300 Million Served and Still Hungry, and pray that God will somehow extricate us from this sectarian humanism by putting the adults in charge.

Stan Moody, Christian Policy Institute.

The merger between the Christian Right and the GOP has created an unholy alliance between McChurch, the dispenser of cheap grace, and national political leadership.

God has spoken to our President through the faithful word of such luminaries as Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson and Dr. Dobson. The statement, "We are going to win in Iraq!," has special meaning. It means that we are going to assist God in accelerating Armageddon.

Thus far, things seem to be right on target - a war is about to break out in Gaza; the Taliban is regaining strength in Afghanistan; Iran, the 18th largest nation in the world, is flexing its muscles now that the stabilizing presence of Iraq has been removed; terrorism continues to be orchestrated from the caves of Northern Pakistan by He-Who-Can-Run-But-Can't-Hide.

Dispensationalist Christians are rejoicing! They can't wait until the blood of our dear friends, the people of Israel, runs three-feet deep on the Plains of Megiddo!

On the other hand, read my book, McChurched: 300 Million Served and Still Hungry, and pray that God will somehow extricate us from this sectarian humanism by putting the adults in charge.

Stan Moody, Christian Policy Institute.

Atheism Is not a belief system in an of itself.

Many different people have come to the conclusion of atheism and from many different philosophies and religious experiences.

Atheism is not Marxist, it is not Objectivist, it is not always a conclusion reached from Logic. It can be also reached using emotion.

You can be a Liberal or a Conservative or an Anarchist or any point therein.

Atheism can be a formal statement of non-belief but it can also be the fact that you have no knowledge or awareness of some theistic belief that others hold.

We are, it has been correctly stated, born atheistic. We can gain a knowledge about Gods or any theistic view only from parents and community that we are born into. Or by inventing our own Gods or God.

In fact we can say that we are all atheists in respects to other peoples Gods.

Most Atheists really just don't believe because it did not make sense to them. Some do not believe for an emotional reason like the death of a loved one that made them question their beliefs. Some actually have a religion that does not require the belief in the supernatural. Some do not see a difference in "God" or the Universe, two words for the same thing so to speak. But they are considered Atheist all the same by those who see the concept of "God" as outside of the Universe.

Often we have a problem in that "God" has no working definition that is consistent even sometimes among the same religion and denomination. Einstein is said in the Time magazine "Man of the Century" article to at least have believed in God. The truth of the matter is he probably was using God as a metaphor for the Universe. He did not in his own words "Believe in personal God". Shame on the author of that article for not reading anything Einstein actually wrote except "God does not play Dice with the Universe."

Some pretend to believe because in times past, and in the current state in the more radical muslim controlled countries you can actually be killed for expressing a belief against the status quo. Ever heard of the Inquisition, or the Stoning of Infidels and unbelievers?

Why are there now "Militant Atheists"? Maybe they are not so militant as they are tired of being told that unless they believe in the same fairy tales as their neighbor they will be censured, or excluded from even secular activities.

The United States of American is the first Nation to not have any particular religious doctrine being the foundation of it's Government. We even have an article in the constitution that forbids any religious test be given to any holder of office elected or appointed. There is no requirement to say "So Help me God" in the President's Oath. That is a personal choice to do so.

The farther back in time you go the more closely linked religion seems to be to the Ruling Bodies. We once had God-Kings, representatives of heaven on Earth, Some like Egypt claimed that the first Kings or Pharaohs were the Gods them selves. Later we had Kings and Rulers that said they Ruled by Divine Right and the Pope backed them up on it.

Was the United states influenced by Christianity? Yes, undoubtedly. Is it the singular influence that Christians of the far right would have you believe? No far from it. Much of the influence comes from individuals who began to think for themselves, the merchants of venice, The Greeks and the Romans for example.

They also questioned the great experiments of Europe, and did not want the disasters as they saw them of the Papists, and Church of England. That to me is the biggest influence that the Church or Faiths of man had on the founding Fathers. They seemed to have wanted each man to make up his own mind and not be bullied by a government or other group. They actually thought that it was a matter or personal choice, but they also thought that open discussion was healthy so long as no one was excluded because of a Majority Ruling.

We do seem to have the odd and contrary notion that the "Majority Rules" in this country. John Adams gave warnings about the evils of a true democracy, that it lead to only anarchy.

The controversial rulings of the Supreme Court against the "Under God" part of the Pledge of Allegiance are not an attack on Christianity. The reality is it is a support of it, or rather each individuals right to choose. If you take that choice away and enforce it, you now take a road that the Founders feared.

They thought that picking and saying "We are a Christian Nation" was a prelude to saying that we are a Baptist Nation or a Catholic Nation, or a Lutheran Nation, or a Unitarian Nation, or a Deist Nation. First we exclude those who are not Christians, then we exclude those who are not our particular denomination. Remember, they were all well aware that we did not live in harmony as a freely choosing Christians.

Believe it or not, while many came to this country to practice their religion as they saw fit, when they got here they found that even here there were others who would not let them and in fact would kill them for being a Quaker, or Anabaptist, or Catholic or Jew, or Muslim, or Hindu. So much for Freedom of Religion as the basis of our Founding Pilgrims. The Puritans were a violent lot, so to were many others.

I say this:

"It is a weak Religion that requires the Government to Sanction or support it. It should stand on its own merits or fall for a lack of them."

Arthur

The Declaration was written in Philadelphia, so the founders were Eagles fans!

So, by Antiluminous' (apt name) logic, this is an Eagles nation!

Nice one, Reverend. Well said, well put.

One of the reasons the Founding Fathers did what they did was they were educated enough to realize that the lessons of history were that a state sponsored religion usually led to strife and turmoil.

The history of the previous 500 years was full of
dismal incidents (the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre of the French Hugenots, the English experience with Henry VIII's schism with the Catholic pope and the civil unrests and killings that followed for the next century, the various purges of heretics (Cathars, Albigensians, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.)

Even in recent history, it could be shown that while the Pilgrims indeed came to America to practice their own religious beliefs, they were quite unwilling to allow others to do the same--thus the founding of Rhode Island by Roger Williams. Maryland was founded in part to be a
refuge for Catholics, and I know from my own
family history that Quakers in the Colony of Virginia were shabbily treated and so were forced to move to North Carolina during the early 1700's.

One only has to reach back to the 1800's to see where Mormons were forced to emigrate to Utah in
order to practice their religion.

With such a dismal history of toleration of other creeds it is no wonder that there is an clause in our constitution that forbids the establishment of a state religion.

Now in an increasingly multicultural America with Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccans, Scientologists, and yes, even Atheists, it's even more important to not seek to impose your beliefs on others.

Hannah,

I've always understood "fundamentalist" to refer to any believer who adheres to a strict literal reading of scripture. This would apply to fundamentalist Islam as well as fundamentalist Christianity.

And I've always associated "born-again" with a general type of Christian evangelism. The media often confuses evangelism and fundamentalism, which does a disservice to all Christians because many evangelists do not read the Bible literally.

And yes, I know a few born-again Christians, some in my own family. Some are wonderful people, and some have the rudeness to tell people how to raise their kids.

By "fear" I don't mean fear of persecution. I have a lot of admiration for Christians like Abdur Rahman who adhere to their faiths on pain of death. The fear I'm talking about is fear of social change, which is by no means limited to Christians. I suspect that the revival of Biblical literalism in America is largely a reaction to the social changes of the 1960s. It's natural for people to long for order and stability in times of turmoil. The problem, as I see it, is that some literalists want American government to reflect only their beliefs. Religious absolutism, whether it's Christian or Muslim or any other religion, has no place in any government.

I have to break it to you all that unless we recognize God and Jesus and the Bible as the chief authority in this nation, the country will lose altitude and eventually crash and burn. Israel blew off their allegiance to the above authority throughout the Old Testament and they got theirs. This is indisputable... so I would suggest the proud pontificators and desperate denigrators get on their knees rather than on their laptops. God has promised in II Chronicals 7:14 that he is open to second chances but America is really pushing it.

Antiluminous, I have come to the conclusion that you simply choose not to see reality. If the founders of this nation had intended it to be a Christian nation, they very certainly would have SAID SO very specifically. These were folks who'd had enough of their mistreatment at the hands of a religiously driven monarch, and broke away from one, risking a civil war in doing so. Their very refusal to use specific words like Christ or God is extremely telling in their intent for this to be a common ground where everyone can be respectful of everyone else's wishes and beliefs. Why is it that Christians choose to see a mandate where none exists? Noone has a problem with our forefathers being of faith, just a specificity of faith is in question. I see no evidence of a preference for Christianity, and that's incredibly telling of these very careful men's intent.

antiluminous
Jesus said "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." And If you are a Christian, that's what Christians believe- the trinity- that's what it is. God is the person or soul of 'God' aka the Father. Jesus- God in the flesh. Holy Spirit- what we have for 2006. The Spirit of God or the comforter that was left behind for His believers. So sorry but Jesus is God, according to the Bible.
p.s. that was supposed to be in your defense against chief jimbo's comment. Unless you aren't a christian. Most of us I would safely assume thought you were a christian by the letter.

America is a Christian nation-state that welcomes secular groups, not a secular nation-state that welcomes Christian groups.

Also, to Hannah, Jesus Christ is the son of God, he is not God. In the bible he constantly refers to the "father", His father. This is why 6 centuries later Islam attempts to absorb Jesus Christ into their religion as a prophet, so Islam can then claim hegemony over Christianity.

Yes, the world is a mess, but secular humanism will not resolve it and only make matters much worse. I say that because secular humanism has no interest in religious conflict resolution, only subjucation.

and for a last thought- i really wrote that around 5:30 didn't read the rest til later.. on behalf of antiluminous-
Jesus was not a philosopher. He claimed to be God in the flesh. so either he is exactly that, insane, or a liar. A person who makes that claim either has the authority to say that or is one of the latter two. Jesus said, "But who do YOU say that I am?" and I think that's still the same question He is posing on people's hearts or else there wouldn't be such a reaction to His name, His people or the christianity question of our nation. Anyhow Jesus was God. He is God and He will be tommorrow. You may not believe that but I know for sure in my own personal life (which i can't convince you of..) But he was prophesied of in the Torah and He came in during that time, died and resurrected from the dead. That time alotted has already passed and was there another Messiah during that time? I don't think so.. He was the Messiah to come (the christ)! and you can have a personal relationship with Him if you call upon the only Living and Risen Savior Jesus Christ.

Derek I like your last comment, that answer was better than the reverand's. Sorry Mr. Tully but if all of our churches kept God in our four walls we'd have some problems because God is not contained by just a religious creed but by the living word which was Jesus in the flesh. The Holy Spirit gives us that revelation of the large need around us. My pastor says we were a Christian nation but no longer are because we have turned away from those routes and really rebelled against it morally. But most of the world looks at us as a Christian nation because of our heritage which is a shock to many people fighting the faith when they meet our "Christians" and others that are not christians- confusion because of the lack of faith- or coviction/passion for God. Tonio I don't think you or Molly know what a fundamentalist Christian is. Not to be offensive but I would consider myself a fundamentalist Christian, I'm what the more modern term calls them a "born-again," I don't know if you've ever met a born-again christian but yes, i believe in fundamental values of the Christian faith or else i couldn't consider myself a Christian. So I'm not sure where you associated fear with born-again christians but most I know do some pretty courageous things like preach in countries where they are either persecuted or killed or live in conditions that are harsh to facilitate moves of God or revival so if that's what you call the fundamental Christians worrying about public advantages- go ahead. because like me Christians should know that's just someone who is either indoctrinated to believe that or are just blowing hot steam.

Wow!!! I just got done reading "Letter to a Christian Nation." People of every faith, or lack there of, NEED to read this! I've been hoping someone would put together a book like this that is a very easy read and straight to the point! Thank you Sam Harris for writing this book!

It's the very definition of insanity, you are holding contradictory beliefs in your one head, listen to yourself:
"This country wasn't founded on Islam, or Bhuddism, or any other religion."

and

"That is why the founders founded the United States and the laws of this country based upon the Old and New Testaments."

Do you understand what insanity is? I have to wonder if you're just sticking a needle in to see who winces, your final statement reeks of megalomania.

Derek and Antiluminous

You both need to get a hold of yourselves.

Simply because a book written by men says that Christ is the answer (what else would you expect someone propagating the notion of Christ to say?) doesn't mean anyone "needs" Christ. If you do, go for it, but leave everyone else alone.

As for history and the founding of this nation, the Declaration of Independence was drafted by Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. If you look at the history, it was specifically NOT founded on any scripture.

Jefferson tried to edit Franklin's text to put in a reference to God but Franklin dissuaded him -- the notion of Creator, Nature and Nature's God were designed to lend a non-religious flavor.

Get a life, will you?

"Who cares how many were muslim or christian, what does that have to do with anything?"

It has everything to do with the founding of the United States of America. We all must care about the circumstances that led to the founding of our great nation and its written Constitution. This country wasn't founded on Islam, or Bhuddism, or any other religion. In fact, the establishment clause was designed to prevent a new and popular religion from appearing that would "dupe" the Americqan people into handing their rights over in exchange for it.

That is why the founders founded the United States and the laws of this country based upon the Old and New Testaments.

The New York Post should really just hire me and have me explain these things in a column of my own.

"That by no means means the founders were not religious nor does it mean they did not found America as a Christian nation. They did."

The Treaty of Tripoli (1797) says that they didnt't. (Article 11: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;...)

How many signers were slave owners? How many were left-handed? How many had green eyes?
You can ask the questions in the way that you want, to get the answers you want.

Who cares how many were muslim or christian, what does that have to do with anything? What are you trying to prove to yourself with your statements here?

How many of the signers knew that malaria was caused by a bacterium, or knew the relationship between electricity and magnetism?
I find it amazing that people with such a primitive knowledge of biology and technology were able to create our nation, free of the religious imperialism so many christians of today desire - christians who do know what a bacterium is.

I particularly notice the "Case closed." statement. Perfect, you describe yourself better than any one else can here.

Antiluminous,
You accuse people of not "knowing" American history, but do you know the history of thought? Jesus was a philosopher as much as Socrates, Plato, Aristotle. I point out these three mainly due to the fact that each expanded thoughts of their predecessors. As much as they can't provide evidence that America was "founded by Buddha and Islam" you can't provide evidence that Jesus did not base his teachings on Aristotelian thought or that he wasn't a student of other ancient Greek philosophies. The evolution of teachings and thought did not end 2006 years ago.

"The Constitution itself does not contain the word God."

Of course it doesn't. That is because the US Constitution is the list of "rights" given to us by the "creator" as laid down in the DOI. There was no reason for the founders to cover ground they already covered in the DOI when they decided to separate from England.

Let's face it. Almost every individual that the Washington Post is bringing in to talk about these issues has no clue about American history.

Look at this: [The Declaration of Independence speaks of “the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God” and “Creator,” terms that would not likely satisfy my politically activist evangelical friends.]

The founders founded America based upon the "creator", nature's God, because they did not want "human Gods" like the ones that existed in Europe governing them. Man is not God.

The founders were recognizing for the first time that God doled out unaliable rights to the citizen and not the "state".

That by no means means the founders were not religious nor does it mean they did not found America as a Christian nation. They did.

America was founded using the Old and New Testaments. America was not founded through Bhudda and Islam. If we were, present some evidence right now to prove it.

How many of the US Constitution's signers were Islamic?

Answer: 0

How many were Christians? Over 95%.

America was clearly founded as a Christian nation.

Case closed.

God doesn't need "Christian nations", true indeed. But the people in every nation need Christ.

"There is no other name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved" (Acts 4:12).

"Worse, those who make that claim raise the suspicion that they trying to gain some public advantage for their faith."

That is a very reasonable and understandable suspicion. I agree with Molly Ivins that "fundamentalists aren't evil, they're scared." They feel threatened by America's growing religious diversity, and I suspect that they seek public advantage for their faith as a defense measure. But all religions are threatened when government favors one religion over others.

So far, the ONLY intelligent comment in this entire series. Well done, Rev. Tully. I just wish more people would do what you seem to be willing to do -- believe with passion and keep it to yourself except in your church.