A Chaplain for Every Soul

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Adriana Lima
Alec Baldwin
Alessandra Ambrosio
Alicia Silverstone
Alyssa Milano
Anna Faris
Anna Kournikova
Anna Nicole Smith
Ashlee Simpson
Ashley Tisdale
Ashton Kutcher
Aubrey O'Day
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Greetings Ma'am. So what you are saying is that there is no place for a Pagan Chaplain. You are correct. There are no "Christian" Chaplains in the US Military. There are Baptists, Methodists, Catholics and the like, but I have never seen ANY Chaplain in the military with a listing of "Christian" as their eclesiastical endorser, nor their particular faith. So let's clarify that "Pagan" as it stands today is not a faith group, but a lable of distinguisability such as Muslim or Christian. There will never be a "Pagan" Chaplain, but there will be a Wiccan or Druid Chaplain. Those are clearly defined church groups that have actual paying membership. I am not familiar with anyone who goes to Christian Church, they always go to a denomination. So when you look at "Pagan" know that there this is a primarily Christian lable to deal with non-bible believing individuals and for individuals who do not believe in Judeo-Christianity or any religion for that matter, to place themselves in a catagory of definition. Noted too, that Pagan is not a religion, it is a community that creates an umbrella for non-traditional Earth Based religions to be placed in for those needing a catagory for us. In fact, some of us Wiccans out here do not sign up to the generic label of "Pagan", as to us that has nothing to do with our religion. Regards, Rev. Marcia Drewry

"But they might need one to be a pagan shoulder to lean on, someone to share understanding with in times of extreme stress and loneliness, and someone to discuss the religion with even if it's as between equals."

Don't forget we are talking about pagan chaplains in a time of war. You can conduct rituals yourself, but it is damn hard to conduct your own funeral.

Possibly so, Boniface.

Actually, Steve B...

Good thoughts, but there's more.

Paganism says, you don't *need* priests and priestesses.

It doesn't say you *can't have em.*

'Everyone' does not need that skillset, though.

We're much more than 'religion.' When we gather, we specialize as much as everyone. A Pagan soldier has the same spiritual autonomy as an HP.

That doesn't mean he oughtn't be concentrating on his and his comrade's figurative arses when he's supposed to be soldiering, cause he's worried he's not going to have a chaplain that knows from their peers that he's not a damned soul looking for conversion, but a person with a respectable faith of his own.

Our troops oughtn't to have to go through that.

Certainly not under fire.

But also as citizens of the United States.

Frankly, the Pagan community at large is not particularly comfortable with nor invested in public credentials. But we can and do get them. When need presses.

And our need's on us now.

This article has brought to my mind the following: "She's educated beyond her intelligence."

Brian: **Doniger never presented any reason to NOT have a pagan chaplain, yet somehow she says that at the start of her screed. Everything she's written points to a conclusion along the lines of "...so, of course there should be pagan chaplains."**

Whew! It wasn't just me that got that impression then. I thought I was losing it.

Incoherent indeed. The whole Wicca/Wikipedia thing completely undermines any trust I could have in the source. I'm tempted to think that the whole paragraph is some sort of massive typo because it makes so absolute little sense. Shame on Dr. Doniger. Even Wikipedia better describes Wicca than you did.

Steve B,
Well said :)

Regarding why Wiccans might need a chaplain when they're all priests/priestesses themselves, I would assume the chaplain's duties go beyond leading ritual. You're right, Wiccans don't need a chaplain to lead ritual for them.

But they might need one to be a pagan shoulder to lean on, someone to share understanding with in times of extreme stress and loneliness, and someone to discuss the religion with even if it's as between equals.

We need a pagan chaplain. The numbers justify it, the role would be useful, and more to the point there's no reason to exclude pagans from something everyone else is entitled to.

Well, Bgone, Falwell's on record as insisting Pagans were responsible for 9/11, and his lobby clearly wanted the 'faith-based initiatives' to exclude Pagans, cause when Pagan groups went, 'Crap, they're cutting funding to the poor in our area, at least maybe we can help this way, instead of forcing people to go to churches for food,' they refused to accept the 'faith-based' Pagan help on the grounds that... Guess what...

"You can't be charitable cause Pagans are uncharitable."

Falwell never minded being a hypocrite on these things. We're still dealing with the same administration.

Btw. Tiki aren't Gods in that way you're saying. You may be thinking of Huna. Who are also a bit different, I'm really not going to attempt to encapsulate Hawaiian culture, though. It's actually something you could Google: they're getting a bit tired of being disinformed about, too.

Which is kind of a common element here that a lot of Christian exclusivists are just not getting:

"Why are all these non-Christians so pissed at us just for saying all these obnoxious things that aren't true and trying to make them goernment policy?"

Well.... Think about it half a minute.

When you were *pushing for our marginalization and disenfranchisement less,* we were *less angry.*

Wow.

What a concept.

The only meaningful paragraph in this long-winded diatribe:

"As for pagans in public office, there, too, I think, it is time to give up the untenable and hurtful pretense of being one nation under one god. A pagan, and an atheist, and an agnostic, and anyone of any other creed has the right to hold public office—as long as they all restrict their religious views to the privacy of their place of worship, even if that place is simply a clearing in the woods under a full moon."

Jerry Falwell was in favor of a "national tithe" to support all churches, probably divided up by Christian, (acceptable sect only) congregation head count. It's a shame he's dead. I for one would be interested in his stand on religious freedom that includes Pagans. Would he include them "on the dole" from big government "establishing" big religion?

We need God only according to a lot of spiritual types. Seems to me Pagans improve chances of getting help from God considerably. When one God fails call upon another and hopefully a less deaf one.

Fear God is also one of Christian's demands. If one God isn't so scary then another may well be, being scared by God a necessity for salvation only of course. Ever see one of them Hawaiian, (I'm afraid to say tiki not knowing what the word tiki means) Gods when not expecting it? Heart attack time. That's the kind of God that belongs in the court room, one on each side of the judge, bound to make law breakers extra sorry.

Time for a new topic.

I wouldn't expect a great deal of 'power' in government and military to be conferred on Pagan chaplains, to be honest, Jason.

In so many ways, this is a matter of serving our thousands of Pagan troops when the government, and some religious sects, would rather *erase* their existence and contributions.

Atheists are in foxholes. American Atheists is an advocate, but one can find a whole host of other organizations supporting the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers.

I had some trouble following the article, but I would at least say that I'd also vote for a pagan and I'd agree that those in public office should keep their faith private while exercising their public duty. Those two points at least were clear and positive messages.

On that note, we must ask ourselves how chaplains were given such a powerful place in our government and military.

Ms. Doringer,
Se habla Ingles? Because this is f**king incoherent.

"While I agree that the author either needs to rewrite the article or learn a bit more about modern paganism before she shoots off her mouth, I have to agree with her that there should be no need for pagan chaplains."

Even when Pagan troops say they need them? Strong statement.

"We are a religion of priests/priestesses. As and earlier post pointed out personal gnosis, rather than dogma, guides us. As such, who do we propose the military call be minister to us?"

We are a religion which believes in 'personal gnosis' if that's your term, but we are not a religion which believes "You're on your own, bucko." :)

Who will minister to us?

The same who always do. The ones respected by the community for their wisdom and caring.

And if necessary to others, credentials.

What's so hard about that?

While I agree that the author either needs to rewrite the article or learn a bit more about modern paganism before she shoots off her mouth, I have to agree with her that there should be no need for pagan chaplains.
We are a religion of priests/priestesses. As and earlier post pointed out personal gnosis, rather than dogma, guides us. As such, who do we propose the military call be minister to us?
The Latter-Day Saints have a similar problem in that they have an entirely lay priesthood which consists of virtually every adult male in the sect. I met a Mormon Chaplain while I was serving in 29 Palms many years ago. He had never been to Divinity school. None exist for the Mormon faith. He was called by virtue of being an elder (a distinction shared by most Mormon men over 18) and having a degree in psychology from BYU. Nobody, including the Mormon troops, paid much attention to him. They all looked to the local Bishop out in town. I think he resigned his commision after about a couple of years.
I can see the same thing happening to a pagan chaplain. I personally don't even look to the couple who innitially taught me the craft any more. Why would I listen to someone I have never met and whose tradition and beliefs I don't know, for spiritual guidance? Then there's the obvious truism that Christian churches provide chaplains mainly to prostletize. We don't do that.

Professor or no professor, her essay didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. She seemed to be arguing that, because "pagan" was a catchall term that encompassed "non-believers" as well as "neo-Pagans," there shouldn't be Pagan chaplains any more than there should be atheist or agnostic chaplains. But what about those Wiccans who have fought long and hard to have the Wiccan pentacle recognized as a legitimate religious symbol on military gravestones? Christianity is, in many ways, a more amorphous and fractured group of sects than Wicca -- so why is the latter "not a real religion" too?

Am I think only one who thought the essay was decent (alhtough it did get foggy at the end) and that the wikipedia reference was just a joke? I doubt she was serious...she is a prof. at U. of Chicago...

I have to join those who are finding this author's rationale for saying there should be no Pagan chaplains to represent our troops ....nonsensical, in fact contradictory.

Frankly, though, I find many of the rationales against this from atheistic people have something to do with some idea 'We don't like religion, so there should be no more people included in these institutions.'

Still don't know what she's trying to say here, except it in no way justifies discrimination.

Oh, and just on Terra's mention of this:

"and the word Wicca is rightfully pronounced Wit-cha, not Wik-ka.
terra"

Correct, but in common parlance, "Wicca" like it sounds, 'Wick-ah' is what you'll hear and considered just as correct when it comes down to it.

Doesn't have anything to do with Wikipedia, no. :)

>>"a wide range that includes the Wicca witches (as in the Wikipedia, the encyclopedia for people who believe in witches and leprechauns)"

Sorry, was that a joke?

>>"and the Goddess feminists (who believe that [a] originally we all worshipped Goddesses, and [b] the world was a far kinder, gentler place when we did, two equally unsupportable hypotheses).

True. As a Wiccan high priestess said to me (about a speaker's idea that there'd be no war in a matriarchal society) "Hasn't she ever worked in an office?!"

People seem to miss the point every time this comes up. When the question says "Pagan Chaplain", it means Neopagan. Not "non-christian country-dweller or hick". Just the type B's.

Paganism in mainstream society today is 99% Neopaganism. It would be silly to attempt to make a 'pagan' chaplain to cater for atheists, the ignorant, or uncivilised. "Pagans" asking for a chaplain are Neopagans.

This being the case (and Wicca and Goddess-religions being included) it absolutely deserves a chaplain or two, in proportion to the number of practitioners serving in the armed forces.

What's difficult is that *Neo*paganism is still a huge umbrella term, and you then need to work out if your Chaplain can cater for initiated Wiccans, Asatru, Feri trad, Reclaiming, Druids, Khemetics, Celtic reconstructionists, Shamans...

The word "Wiki" doesn't (shouldn't) even sound like Wicca, it is properly pronounced "wee-kee" and is derived from the Hawaiian double-word "wiki wiki" which means "quick".

and the word Wicca is rightfully pronounced Wit-cha, not Wik-ka.
terra

GD,

Sorry, I missed your post.

Wiki in Wikipedia is Hawaiian for quick. It is a pretty well-known fact, I am really surprised she apparantly did not know that. It has absolutly nothing to do with Wicca.

BTW, when Hitler heard what Patton had said, "going to grease the treads of his tanks with German guts" he was thrilled. When Yodel wondered why Hitler said, "that's why I am Fuehr and you are a mere field marsahll. The Americans are out of axle grease and we have plenty so we are winning."

Did the Nazis have chaplains?

The word "Wiki" doesn't (shouldn't) even sound like Wicca, it is properly pronounced "wee-kee" and is derived from the Hawaiian double-word "wiki wiki" which means "quick". The original term was "WikiWikiWeb" but has become shortened by common usage. See the following URL for a discussion on this by Ward Cinningham the man who invented the wiki software design.

http://c2.com/doc/etymology.html

Professor:

Your second paragraph describes the "good soldier" prepared to "inflict casualties" on our enemies. Let's cut the bologny and get to the facts, soldiers are killers, tearing other human beings limb from limb, hurting them is the most uncivilized ways and letting them suffer, cry out, scream and be to civilized to end their suffering with an additional bullet. Not so on Iwo Jima where no Japanese wounded were allowed to suffer any longer than it took to reload, point and shoot. And the Japanese didn't let Americans suffer any more than necessary either. Due to an ammo shortage they often used their swords to simply whack off their heads. That's war and only losers will try to change it.

I agree with no Pagan chaplains because war is no place for chaplains, "sweeties" that lead sobbing old women in prayer as they ponder Jesus dying on the cross to save them. Now Fr Duffy of the fighting 69th may be an exception to the rule but his type are rare. Patton had to order the chaplain to compose a prayer for good weather so he could kill those "Hun bastards" gonna "grease the treads of his tanks with their guts."

Bitner wrote:

"Also, I don't thing that Mr. Chase was questioning Wikipedia because he thinks it has to do with Wicca, but because it's not the most reliable source of information."

Christopher responds:

That is indeed exactly what I meant. Wikipedia is useful for tracking down the occasional reference, but it should not be used to actually cite or support a point about religion. This is far too important a subject and conversation to trust an anonymously edited online encyclopedia. A "wiki" has nothing to do with "Wicca" per se. I hope that is clear. And I hope future blog entries from contributing authors will not attempt to cite Wikipedia in their discussions.

Good grief, posted before I was through. I was about to write that someone should clue the author in on the fact that Wikipedia doesn't have anything to do with Wicca. Hopefully, she does read the comments on her own article, and will learn that she is mistaken.

"A number of people nowadays identify themselves as type B pagans, a wide range that includes the Wicca witches (as in the Wikipedia, the encyclopedia for people who believe in witches and leprechauns)"

Um...not very familiar with Wikipedia are we? While there may be articles on Wicca, witches, and leprechauns, Wikipedia has absolutely nothing to do with any of those beyond that save for wiki sounding kinda like Wicca.

This whole article feels kinda rushed and not very thought or researched out.

I too am confused by her seeming contradiction. Perhaps, if she reads the comments here, she could chime in and clarify.

Also, I don't thing that Mr. Chase was questioning Wikipedia because he thinks it has to do with Wicca, but because it's not the most reliable source of information. I'm not badmouthing it, because I do use it, but only as a starting point for research, do to the simplicity of finding references on the site. But it is hardly comprehensive, or the absolute truth.

Dear Prof. Doniger,
I am puzzled by your essay, since you seem to say both that you don't support having a Pagan chaplain in the US Armed Forces, and that you do support it.

But the most puzzling thing in your essay is that you describe contemporary Pagans as believing/calling our religions "Our True Religion". I have been Pagan for more than 20 years, and I have never experienced any Pagans thinking/believing that our religions are "true" in the abstract sense the way many Christians or Moslems believe their religions are "true".

Many of us Pagans believe that ALL religions are true (to at least some extent, for some people, within a particular cultural context and/or time period) Most of us simply believe that our religions, our beliefs and our spiritual practices are the ones that are best for us. This is why we are more tolerant than most other religions, and why we can be members of different faith traditions simultaneously, without feeling any contradiction. If one believes that all mythos is true (thus the multitude of Dying Gods from the ancient Near East that so annoyed the Church Fathers looking for some absolute Truth in their Christian myths) any apparent contradiction is simply a matter of limited human perspective.

Also, since many Pagans are mystical, personal gnosis is very important in many of our modern day Pagan practices. If the deities tell you that something is OK, then it is OK, even if the priests or priestesses tell you the same thing is wrong. This is part of the essence of messy but free modern Paganism: we give ourselves permission to be in charge of our own spirituality, without some Pope or other holy person telling us what to do.

I realize that this makes many people in other religions nervous, and that they sometimes think we have no rules, ethics, morality at all. However, it is extremely post-modernist. And this trend in modern religion isn't going away but rather increasing: think about the so-called cafeteria Catholics, or the many people who find the Episcopal/Anglican quarrels over Bishop Gene Robinson alienating.....

Finally I would like to add that I frequently worship Ganesha. I have just returned from a Pagan gathering in which one of the presenters, an initiate of Ammachi of Kerala, held a Kali Puja for us. It was lovely. Sometimes I worry about your welfare in the face of Hindu fundamentalism. May my prayers for your continued well-being resound throughout the nine realms.
Blessings from Caroline Kenner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_theory_(science)

http://home.earthlink.net/~delia5/pagan/dio/Dionysos-99wtp.htm

Wendy Doniger is a important mover and shaker in the academic discipline of Religious Studies (and rightly so), so it behooves us to examine her ideas carefully. She is chiefly known as a scholar of Hinduism, so she knows what polytheistic and orthopraxic religions are about.

After reading Prof. Doniger's entry a second time, I believe I understand what she is arguing for. She appears to believe that there should be chaplains for "paganism" (including both "types A and B"), but not for "Paganism" (just "type B"). Both senses of the word (A and B) are highly operative in contemporary society and her belief is that chaplaincy should reflect that. I would disagree. Chaplaincy should reflect practical realities, not academic theories. "Secular Humanist" chaplains would thus be a welcome addition and could serve the needs of atheist and agnostic soldiers (Type "A"). Pagan chaplains, versed in Wicca, Druidry, Asatru, and other modern Pagan traditions could serve those of type "B" traditions. I would disagree that "atheism" and "agnosticism" are religions. They may be philosophies, but they lack any ritual component or development that would be necessary for an actual practice. Given that there are ostensibly atheistic religions (such as Jainism and Theravada Buddhism) it makes little sense in a serious conversation to draw some fundamental bifurcating distinction between "atheism" and "religion," anyway.

If I have correctly gauged her her argument, I would suggest that the essay needs a bit of editing to bring this out--it is indeed confusing. Historically, she is correct regarding the Church Fathers like Clement and Tertullian, and also correct about Kenneth Grahme, although I think some of these specific references distract from her central points. I really don't understand what a Wikipedia reference is doing here. No one in a serious conversation about religion should be citing Wikipedia, and in Prof. Doniger's case, there should be no need to do so.

I would agree that it is time to recognize that in fundamentally religiously pluralistic nation, "one nation under god" makes little sense. But perhaps it could be replaced with "E Pluribus Unum," instead?

I just wanted to point out that wikipedia has nothing to do with either Witches or leprechauns. The name refers to a technique of allowing readers to write and edit articles, and is not referencing Wicca in any way.

What an incoherent mess. Doniger never presented any reason to NOT have a pagan chaplain, yet somehow she says that at the start of her screed. Everything she's written points to a conclusion along the lines of "...so, of course there should be pagan chaplains." I can only suppose blind prejudice is why.