Catholics Go For Obama

sparrow4 – since you at not a catholic we don’t really give a sparrow’s rear-end for your drift either. You’re entitled to think as you want and we Catholics of the One True Church of Christ are entitled to speak as we wish. There you go spewing that crap about it being some phantom constitutional right of a woman to kill her baby – show me where it allows that in the constitution ms. sparrow? I will show you in our fine constitution, trampled on by judges, where it says quite clearly the opposite - that we all – yes that includes pre-born human babies – have the RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY and you know the rest don’t you…
Go ahead – make what you think is a decision for your body (really the body of another soul), but go on believing that lie it's all about ‘your’ body. And don’t worry yourself too much about us forcing our religion on you – you need to go to some (unnamed) country to have a real fear of that. But we will say this. We’ll admonish when and where we dame well please and no one can, will, of better think they can stop us.
Good day.

PAULC2

Keep your eyes peeled, I will try to send it again somewhere, I kept a copy. As a matter of fact, after I try to send this comment, I will try now but if blocked somewhere else and even if it never makes it don't worry, God's Plan will come to FRUITION.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum,
that is truly disappointing. I was really looking forward to understanding your view... paul

PAULC2

I wrote a reply to your comment and it was blocked, just like the comment that I wrote to Mary Cunningham on CA about Bishops vs Bishop and like the comment I wrote on the one set up when the Pope came to the United States.

Didn't the "religious" of Jesus's day try to "block" Him?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum,
I absolutely agree with you that Just acknowledging a faith in God is insufficient. You must demonstrate your faith through actions.

I am very curious about your vision of Hell, spiritual death and the Kingdom. This is what the catechism has to say:
1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.

1052 "We believe that the souls of all who die in Christ's grace . . . are the People of God beyond death. On the day of resurrection, death will be definitively conquered, when these souls will be reunited with their bodies" (Paul VI, CPG # 28).

1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern" (Paul VI, CPG # 29).

1054 Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.

1055 By virtue of the "communion of saints," the Church commends the dead to God's mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their behalf.

1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the "sad and lamentable reality of eternal death" (GCD 69), also called "hell."

1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26).

1059 "The holy Roman Church firmly believes and confesses that on the Day of Judgment all men will appear in their own bodies before Christ's tribunal to render an account of their own deeds" (Council of Lyons II [1274]: DS 859; cf. DS 1549).

1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.

The way I read this is that although God does not desire anyone to be lost (as in the Protestant view of predestination), the reality is that some are, by their own choice. How else can you reconcile #1056 (eternal death)and 1057 (eternal separation from God). This is different than your view. What makes you think you are right?

sparrow4 :
Pennywise is from a band from the 80's that wrote a song about my life "Reason to Live". I will let you fill in the blanks.

PAULC2

You wrote, "when I say there is one faith, what I am referring to is the Truth about the Holy Trinity as passed down by the Apostles.", yes, I agree with you there, that God is a Trinity and that Jesus is God-Incarnate.

One of the things that I am also trying to say is that God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and by this what I mean is, just because someone believes that Jesus is Who He Is, which is a gift of faith, doesn't automatically mean that they go to the "good" place.

You also wrote, "Of course God has a say in his plan of salvation. It's HIS plan after all. What is your issue here?", I can't be any clearer than to say that "IT IS GOD'S WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED".

Then You wrote, " God gave everyone free will and if someone willed not to be with God, would God demand that he do so?", God will not demand it but people will want it.

They might not this side of the grave but God's Power extends beyond the grave.

We will all go thru judgement, we are all responsible for how we use our free will whether or not we accept that responsibility.

Divine Justice and Divine Mercy go hand in hand.

Then you wrote, " If so, wouldn't that eliminate free will?", no, not at all.

The only limitations, as it were, on God are those that God puts upon Himself and the way I look at it is in giving us free will, God can't interfere with it which is by His Decree which He bestowed on us because He is PURE LOVE.

Since God is God, He Knew that not all would repent, which part of it is taking personal responsibility for how we use our free will, therefore He came up with His Plan, in which we are invited to be active participants, even before creation.

I have never said that hell and spiritual death are not real for the simple reason that they are real but one of the things that I have said about hell is that it is not some kind of monolithic place that some think that it is but is custom built by it's occupant.

Jesus, God-Incarnate, of His Own accord became One of Us and took ALL OF THE SINS OF ALL OF HUMANITY UPON HIMSELF and in doing so won the keys to hell and spiritual death and will use them in due time, God's Time.

It just happens that God chose me to be the one to tell the whole world that His Plan is All-Inclusive, as I have said: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

I do not know all of the details, that is God's JOB, but I do not need to know all of the details, it is just my "job" to speak.

I would be appreciative if you would pray for God's Will just like God-Incarnate, Jesus, taught us in the "Our Father".

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

MARY CUNNINGHAM

You wrote, " Therein lies heresy."

Jesus was accused of being a blasphemer among other things in his day, wasn't He?

It is mentioned that: I will write it on their hearts not on stone, also, I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you. Among other things.

I wrote a reply to you back on CA which was blocked and I also tried to post it on this site the other day and it was blocked, I will try to repost it here after this post.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The fastest growing voting demographic: The 70 million "mothers and fathers of aborted children" whose ranks grow by two million per year. They easily put President-elect Obama in the White/Blood-Red House!!!!

pennywise, since I am not a catholic I really don't give a rat's a** for your drift. You're entitled to think as you do, and the majority of the country is entitled to think as we do. Obama, it so happens is pro-choice, not because he condones abortion, but because he believes in the constitution and in the right of women to their own bodies. I'm sorry you don't agree, but here's the deal- I'll make decisions for myself and my body. You can do the same for yours.

Now you may feel that makes him a "baby-killer" or a "murderer"- again, you can think what you damn well please. Just so long as you don't force your religion on me. And isn't the rest of your username "pound foolish"? That's what one issue voters are. IMHO.

sparrow4

Pro-life and supporting Obama should not even be mentioned in the same sentence. It is apples and oranges. It would be like being divorced and taking communion, using the Lord's name in vain, and not going to confession, saying you are non practicing Catholic. Do you follow my drift?

"A closer look at the exit polls should be as discouraging for left-wing Catholics as for right-wing Catholics. Catholic voters did not embrace either the conservative non-negotiables or the church's preferential option for the poor. They were concerned about themselves and their families.

Will the abortion debate rise up again in four years at the next presidential election? A lot depends on President Obama and the Democratic Congress. If they push through the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA), then they will have betrayed their pro-life Catholic supporters"

54% went for Obama. It wasn't just about the economy. It was laso a reaction to the culture wars, the religious wedge driven into American society by those who don't care about the constitution so long as they have power. Catholics and protestants are not the only constituency Obama has. He would not be betraying anyone. He would be putting the issue squarely back where it belongs- within the family. I don't know why anti-choice people feel they have rights over the rest of us. You have the right to not have an abortion if you so choose. I have the same right- and it's none of your business. Unless you'd like me telling you how to run your personal life as well. You want full rights and equality for those who believe as you do, but not for the rest of us. I object to that. It's also unconstitutional. and if you can't abide by the founding principles of this country, you shouldn't be here.

Cher Observer12:

"Well, now we shall see if David Waters deletes my post, and yours. Of course, since you've posted many anti-semitic comments, he'll have a lot of work to do. Now if he only deletes mine, well then, we'll have, more support for an article on WaPo anti-semitism, will we not? There's already quite a bit of material for such an essay, and there will be more, but evidence from a blog titled "OnFaith" would surely strengthen any such expose."

Je ne comprends pas. Pouvez vous l'expliquer?

Farnaz

The RCC bishops and the religious leaders of other faiths should speak out when there are such obvious violations of the following rules that have evolved over 60,000 years of human history:

"Thou Shall not Kill"

"Thou Shall not Steal"

"Thou Shall not Bear False Witness"

"Thou Shall not Commit Adultery"

"Thou Shall not Covet Thy Neighbor's Wife/Husband"

The Violations and Violators:

One million dead womb babies/year x 35

Bill Clinton and other leadership adulterers

19 million cases of STDs/year

The Enron, Tyco, and Bernie Ebbers scandals

The 50% divorce rate

- Unfortunately the conduct of many pedophiliac priests and the protection of these low-lifes by many RCC bishops reduced/eliminated any "bishop guidance" by the RCC leadership. Chalk up another reason for Catholics voting for Obama.

Thomas,
when I say there is one faith, what I am referring to is the Truth about the Holy Trinity as passed down by the Apostles. You have maintained in previous posts that there is only one TRUTH. I am agreeing with you.

Of course God has a say in his plan of salvation. It's HIS plan after all. What is your issue here?

I think are quibbling with words because you didn't like my (perhaps inprecise) use of the word FAITH. You seem to like "Good News" better. So be it.

I understand you believe that God will deliver everyone to his kingdom because you feel to do otherwise would be to lose those souls to the Devil and that God can not lose. However, I am not as yet convinced that this is true. Is it really required that everyone be saved, even if they don't want to be? God gave everyone free will and if someone willed not to be with God, would God demand that he do so? If so, wouldn't that eliminate free will? Perhaps your argument is that in the end, everyone will be convinced, Satan included, that being with God in his Kingdom is the right decision for them. Perhaps...

Question further to your argument; for example can you explain how an "abortion reduction bill" would address the 9 out of 10 Down's unborn humans who are "terminated" because of their affliction. Do we as Catholics in a society just have to tolerate this as a necessary byproduct of the Obama and Democratic party "Social Justice" policies which you and other Catholic Progressives believe offsets the abortion "moral issue"?

Only a Jesuit could form positions and representations like you state on this matter, in the mold of Fr Drinan SJ, another proponent of the morality of abortion. Perhaps you and other Jesuits should move to the Episcopal Church. You'll be more at ease there with Bishops who support your positions. They will also support same sex marriage that you also may believe is logical and moral.

I must express my extreme disappointment at some of our Catholic officials' behavior/statements during this election. In particular, a radio address by Bishop Gracida of the Diocese of Corpus Christi, TX, who recorded a message that reads, "This is Bishop Rene H. Gracida, reminding all Catholics that they must vote in this election with an informed conscience. A Catholic cannot be said to have voted in this election with a good conscience if they have voted for a pro-abortion candidate. Barack Hussein Obama is a pro-abortion candidate." With the addition of the candidate's middle name, Bishop Gracida used the tactic of inciting hatred, fear, and racism into his message against Obama. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope there was no malice intended, however, given the extensive coverage of the issue of race in this election, I cannot help but have an inkling of doubt in my heart that he knew full well what he was doing. That said, I expect much, much more from our Catholic leaders. It would have been easy to dismiss an everyday Catholic parishioner making the same statement, but I believe our leaders should be held to a higher standard. It is inexcusable for that kind of behavior among the leaders of the Catholic Church and I am ashamed to be associated with the Bishop's statement as it is written. No one refers to Mr. McCain or any other candidate in an unofficial capacity using his middle name. There was no other reason for Bishop Gracida to do so in this case. His message, with which I agree, would have been just as effective. However, with a single word, he likely alienated the nearly 2 million Black Catholics in this country. I pray for the Catholic Church, especially our leaders that they will be as vociferous in their condemnation of ALL evils as they are in their condemnation of abortion.

God Bless.

Janet/Observer12

Your posts have been deleted across at least two blogs. You careen crazily between your two insults: racism to anti-Semitism and back to racism then anti-Semitism, ad infinitum. Your language is foul and your ideas undeveloped.

I honestly think you are slightly unstable and I am sorry for you. But next to you Spiderman seems normal. At your worst you both come across as haranguing harridan. You should desist.

THOES THAT FILE TAX EXAMPT AFTER THEY SPEAK OUT ARE IN VIOLATION OF USA LAW ON TAX EXAMPT NOT TO MENTION THE 7th,8th,& 10th COMMANDMENTS. TAX EXAMPTS FILEING DOES NOT GIVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH ON ANY POLITICAL MATTER.THOES THAT SPEAK OUT, PAY YOUR TAX. I.R.S. MUST INFORCE THE LAW TOO WITH SO MANY VIOLATERS THIS SEASON. IS IT TIME TO JUST DO AWAY WITH TAX EXAMPT LAWS?

Mary Cunningham:

I think you'd better scroll down. There is nothing so foul-mouthed as racism, a sin of which you have been guilty many, many times. Both God and man will judge your anti-semitism.

Am I the only one who thinks that when Jesus called Peter 'a rock' he was being sarcastic? It was a warning not to depend on institutions made by men because they were untrustworthy, just like Peter. Look at Peter at the last supper.
Jesus - Peter, before the cock crows, you will deny you even know me.
Peter - Oh no Jesus, maybe one of these other suckers, but not me, I'll never deny you, never, ever, ever.
--2 hours later---
Peter - Jesus? Is that the Jesus that runs the donkey dealership? I don't know any 'Jesus the Carpenter'

Or when they came to take Jesus Peter yanks out his sword and hacks off the ear(!) of one of the soldier's servents(!). Peter was a bit of a joke, and the NT makes that pretty clear. Hence Jesus calling him a 'rock' to build his church on. Jesus wants us to know that his church will have an undependable foundation that cannot be trusted - like the Bishops that want people to ignore torture and war in favor of abortion when voting.

Observer12, Your potty-mouthed post was personally offensive and that is why it was deleted. I wrote just once I would like to read something you said without smelling sulpher and feeling like I'd just gargled sewrage and you responded by calling me a c..t.

That is why your stuff was deleted you mindless, muck-mired moron.

"These lay persons countered the claims of the vocal bishops by arguing that Democratic educational, social and economic programs would do more to reduce the number of abortions than Republican calls for legal restrictions."

The main goal of all people should be reducing the number of abortions. It is (hopefully) clear by now that criminalization of abortion is not the answer. The correct path is education that will reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

Well, now we shall see if David Waters deletes my post, and yours. Of course, since you've posted many anti-semitic comments, he'll have a lot of work to do. Now if he only deletes mine, well then, we'll have, more support for an article on WaPo anti-semitism, will we not? There's already quite a bit of material for such an essay, and there will be more, but evidence from a blog titled "OnFaith" would surely strengthen any such expose.

Mary Cuningham, Mary Cuningham, Mary Cuningham;

"How I would like once...just once...to read something you have said without getting the feeling I've just gargled with raw sewage."

I recall your sarcastic agreement to petition the Vatican to assist starving Jews and Serbians. The Israeli embassy advises me that you should contact them in London. They will direct you further. Their is tremendous need for thousands of African Jews, many of whom are still attempting to WALK to Israel. Within Israel, there is need in the North where Jews, European, African, Middle Eastern, et al, have been orphaned.

As for starving Serbians, I've run into a bureacracy, but have been informed there is need. Again Contact the embassy.

Kindly, post the results of your efforts. I shall be inquiring every day.

____________________________

Kindly also, petition the Vatican Bank, and Franciscan orders to return the 150, 000,000 it stole from the starving people of Ivory Coast a few years ago.

Petition the Vatican to return the funds held in Vatican Bank that the Catholics, among them Catholic priests led by FR. Draconovik stole out of concentration camps run by Croation clergy and lay Catholics from Serbs, Jews, and Roma.

We've been waiting for a week, and you have yet to update us.

Finally, with respect to your gargling with garbage, glad to help you upgrade.

Mary_Cunningham Author Profile Page:

Observer Observer Observer

Why are you are fixated on Catholics? Why do you and Spidermean love to post abuse on Catholic blogs? What is the matter with you? Spider once posted intelligently but not now. As for you...never.

How I would like once...just once...to read something you have said without getting the feeling I've just gargled with raw sewage.

November 5, 2008 10:24 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Dear Thomas Baum,

The Church protects the Revealed Message, a precious message that must be preserved amid the hazards of history.

If you accept the Revelation, then there must be some authority to determine what is true and holy and what is false. Here is John Henry Cardinal Newman, soon--please God--to be added to the luminous gallery of English and Irish saints:

"The most obvious answer, then to the question, why we yield to the authority of the church in the questions and developments of faith, is that some authority there must be if there is a revelation given, and other authority there is none but she. A revelation is not given, if there be no authority to decide what it is that is given.

In the words of St Peter to her Divine Master and Lord, 'To whom shall we go?' Nor must it be forgotten that Scriptureexpressly calls the Church 'the pillar nd ground of the Truth...'

The absolute need of a spiritual supremacy is at present the strongest of arguments in favour of its supply. Surely, either an objective revelation has not been given, or it has been provided with means of impressing its objectiveness on the world."
An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.

That is why sincere Catholics--and I pray Fr Reese is one--must hue to the teachings of the Church. I believe you, Thomas, to be holy and sincere. But *your* worldview should not be contradict that of Holy Mother Church. Therein lies heresy.

God bless you,

Mary C.

Although all the Gentiles in the king’s realm obey him, so that each forsakes the religion of his fathers and consents to the king’s orders, yet I and my sons and my kinsmen will keep to the covenant of our fathers. God forbid that we should forsake the law and the commandments. We will not obey the words of the king nor depart from our religion in the slightest degree. (1 Macc 2:19-22)

Heaven.com reported an exit poll taken Nov. 05 of departing U.S. Catholic souls. The Poll showed that of those who voted for the Democratic candidate, 100% went straight to gehenna. The Poll cited something about a vote for a candidate who supports “the intrinsic evil of abortion” as participating in a “grave moral evil.” Jesus has this passion for “these little ones” as He refers to them and He doesn’t take lightly to those who would cause them harm, either directly or indirectly. Apparently each were handed a large mill stone as they departed as a token of His sentiment.

I vote that the rules change for marriages too - If you marry someone who is not Catholic, it should be recognized like my faith just did with this election o abortions. Our conscience and values should be "don't let one thing" make your decision. There is no difference in marriages, gay marriages, missing mass because you are tierd, not loving your neighbor, commiting adultry, etc. Why should one of the things I listed above NOT make me true to my faith. I am having a hard time here understanding all of this. I have been a faithful Catholic all of my life. Abortion is wrong and it should weigh on your conscience and values. If it doesn't in the eyes of the Church, then somebody needs to explain this to me. The don't let one thing, just can't mean abortion. Life is Life.

Dear Mary Byrne,

The republican administration made very big cuts in Planned Parenthood funding, enabled conscience clauses, fought anti-bias legislation that threatens religious freedom, funded crisis pregnancy centers that provide options to pregnant woman and beaucoup resources to new moms to help them afford their child, stop the imposition of abortion lobbying in countries that accept our aid, appointed judges that have enabled regulations on partial birth abortion, protected parent's rights... thats just the beginning of what they have done for the Church and her values.

Here's a quote from the Boston Globe in an article on CC and adoption. They interviewed the state for this article:
"Any agency in Massachusetts that handles adoptions must obtain a state license, which prohibits them from turning down prospective parents based on sexual orientation..."

This was due to an exception to anti-bias laws, a democratic legislation, and was only strengthened with the court-created right to gay marriage. Similar problems would hit an extremely large scale if Catholic hospitals were forced to perform abortions and give the morning after pill. Imagine the health and economic impact of the closing of Catholic hospitals.

So, Catholics who voted for Obama were not just going against the Bishops, they were handicapping their own charity and service efforts to the poor and needy. Ultimately they went against their own faith and call to serve the needy.

It seems disingenuous to me that the party that preaches life was unable to deliver results during 6 years of majority rule in Washington. It seems morally suspect that the same party can oppose abortion, support a war begun under false pretenses, endorse the death penalty and deny the beatitudes in its economic policy. I think it is the cynical nature of politics to promise the world and deliver a pebble. And that is what the Catholic bishops have blessed with their pronouncements. I hope the bishops will wake up and begin to distill policy from promises. The politicians who fail to deliver have no claim to our votes. If the bishops do not recognize this shallow manipulation, the Catholic voters surely do.

Paulc2 wrote "Wasn't it evangelical preachers who openly defied the IRS in endorsing candidates a few weeks ago? "

Actually , that was not necessary. Evangelicals already know whom to vote. It also shows how preachers don't mind becoming poorer just to vote their conscience.

My son is a Doctor, and he is concern about FOCA
and another son who works for a group of doctor, and they are all concern,about
FOCA, and taxes going up and Medicare paynment so slow, and the Government cutting back on the amount the government is paying, he said (my son) there fees will go up, and the public will pay more. And if the bill gets through, there will be some Doctor who
will leave health care, and we have a shortage already. Those catholic who voted for Obama, if they can not accept the teaching of the ROMAN CATHOLIC Church, leave and join the American Catholic church, where every thing and any thing goes. Better to have a few humbly practicing ROMAN Catholic, then a pack of american Catholic who are wischey waschy.

Okay Lepido... So, Catholics can not accept any federal money! That is a violation of religious freedom. This country has operated on the principle of subsidiarity, a partnership between the public and private that allows the people to be served according to their values and provides true support to a community.

Your arguments give us even more reason to oppose the democrats. They want to raise taxes, increase federal spending and close out religious groups form the funds. lets not forget that this was a state issue and the same problem can happen on the state funding level. I'd rather richer Catholics have lower taxes and be more free to spend generously contribute to Catholic Charities.

QOFPEACE

You wrote, "I really would like to be there on your judgement day, if you are still unrepentant, when you explain to Jesus an the millions of angels who are witnesses (these being aborted innocent babies you did NOTHING to help, and even made it owrse for them).."

From what you seem to imply in this statement, you are anything but the Queen of Peace.

Also, people do not turn into Angels, Angels are Angels and people are people.

Then you wrote, " especially coming from our own house, our own Church.".

Jesus said, "Simon, thou art Peter and upon this rock, I will build MY CHURCH and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it".

A few things to consider from Jesus's statement:

First, Jesus calls Peter a rock, a living stone, and we are all called to be living stones.

Second, Jesus said "MY CHURCH", He did not say it was Peter's Church, your Church, our Church, my Church as in Tom's Church but He said MY CHURCH as in Jesus's Church, DID HE NOT?

Third, the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it, here is the whole mission of the Church.

Which translates as: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. The captives shall be released and the dead shall rise, of course those that go straight to heaven at physical death are neither captive nor dead so this should give a hint at who the captives and the dead are.

Jesus won the keys to hell and death and He will use them in due time, God's Time.

You should follow your conscience which is what the Catholic Church teaches but it is not your place or my place or the place of the clergy or anyone else's to try to be someone else's conscience.

Maybe it is time to PROCLAIM THE GOOD NEWS just as Jesus asked us many years ago.

It seems that some people embrace their religion so tight that sometimes they squeeze God right out of it.

I am Catholic and I cherish my Catholic Faith, Jesus extended the invitation to "Come follow Me", not to follow My Church, not to follow the bible, not to follow the Pope but to "COME FOLLOW ME [JESUS]", did He not?

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

CHAUFFEURKP

You wrote, "It's time to let the cafeteria catholics".

Do you consider Jesus a "cafeteria Jew", even tho this term might not have been around at the time of Jesus, that is pretty much what some of the Jews of His time thought of Him, don't you think?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

PAULC2

You wrote, " There is only one faith. Those that are attracted to it will be saved."

What kind of statement is this?

Have you ever thought that God might have a say in His Plan of Salvation?

What is this "one faith"?

Do you really think that God is as small as you imply?

Then you wrote, "And I agree with you that it is a fool's errand to water down the faith".

What do you mean by "faith"?

Do you mean "faith in God", "faith in faith", "faith in the Church", "faith in religion", there are many things that people put their "faith" in, are any of these what you are referring to or something else?

Many people water down the "Good News" to where it seems to mean for them the "good enough news" as in as long as they get to the good place.

Then you wrote, "God have mercy on us all... ", this is something that I can agree with and this is what we should pray for and this is what we should hope for and guess what, HE Will have Mercy on us ALL. Divine Mercy and Divine Justice go hand in hand.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The Church is not God. He was here a long time before any of us came along. What we have is an interpretation of God's will. As such, the interpretation will always be open to question. Believe as you choose, but do not believe blindly.

A few comments. First of all, I don't think any or at least very few bishops actually endorsed any candidate. That would be against Catholic practice. They did take positions on the issues and they did tell us to weight abortion higher than other issues. From there they left it to us to make our decisions based on our own consciences.

Spiderman2: you are being a little disinguous when you say that evangelicals know how to vote while Catholics don't. Wasn't it evangelical preachers who openly defied the IRS in endorsing candidates a few weeks ago?

MikeL4, your point on practicing Catholics is a good one. According to this web site: http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/11/breaking-weekly-churchoers-vs.html, Catholics who regularly attend mass voted for McCain 54-45 while Catholics who don't regularly attend Mass voted for Obama 61-37. It's like two different electorates.

And I agree with you that it is a fool's errand to water down the faith to make it more acceptable to the less devout. There is only one faith. Those that are attracted to it will be saved. Those that can't be bothered to pursue it will have to make amends later.. Teaching anything short of the true faith is just short changing those that are capable of true devotion while lulling those less devout into thinking they are doing well enough...God have mercy on us all...

To QofPeace:

So, in order to be a good Catholic, I have to mindlessly vote for a party that I don't believe in? Isn't that putting the City of Man above the City of God as well?

Be wary of pride, QofPeace, for it leads to that "hotter place" as well...

Tell you something Father Reese, you can try to please liberal elitists like Ravitch all you want, but when push comes to shove, they'll always dislike you because you are Catholic. You can take a doctorate, become a Jevvie, write all the books you want, and rationalise abortion to the sky, but you will still be a Catholic, and they'll damn you.

About the only thing that will please them is if you leave the Church.

OK, Ravitch, you say some nasty things about Catholic priests: "the most uneducated, the most unsophisticated, and the most degenerate of people"

Tell me, do you include Father Thomas Reese, SJ? You are posting on his blog, you know. Or do you make an exception for Jesuits? Are some of your best friends are probably Jesuits?

Anyway when they vote for *your* candidate Catholics are well-educated, upscale and sophisticated. When they vote for the *other* candidate Catholics are under the thumb of their disgusting priests!

Thus when Catholics voted for George Bush in 2004, they were under the thrall of their 'disgusting' priests, and now they are upscale and sophisticated.

That's an incredible amount of progress! And in just four years. Imagine...such social mobility!

Hate to say it Ravitch, but I think YOU are the one lacking in sophistication, to say nothing of historical knowledge. IMHO *you* are the one who sounds prejudiced and, well, nasty.

But it's just an impression.

Catholics are now too well educated, too wealthy, too sophisticated to listen to their priests. When they were poor immigrants the priests were the only ones they could look up to. Now the priests are the most uneducated, the most unsophisticated, and the most degenerate of people. Catholics have come a long say, thank God.

MichaelMaedoc writes
"The data is becoming more and more clear restrictions on abortion has an positive impact on abortion numbers and welfare programs do not"

Evidence please.

"We were told that gay marriage laws would not affect us"

It doesn't.

olablue writes
"Each and every "Catholic" vote was a sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church"

Well, at least to some lying, ignorant bishops.

"and all of these people must go and confess their sins before receiving the Eucharist"

Do you confess to your pride and hate? I doubt it.

"I highly doubt we will see any remorse from these cafeteria Catholics who call themselves "Catholic". They are actually Protestant"

People like you loved watching torture during the inquisition. You reflect the Taliban-side of Religion. Jesus's message of love is lost on you.

"Jesus an the millions of angels who are witnesses (these being aborted innocent babies you did NOTHING to help, and even made it owrse for them)"

I didn't realize it was Catholic doctrine that angels are unborn babies.

Is that... *heresy?*

Funny, I thought being an angel was supposed to be a pretty good gig, anyway.

As opposed to being some kid that died after suffering the poverty of policies designed only for the richest who get to whine about not being allowed to queerbash...

They might be pissed. Cause, we all know Catholic Heaven is full of inconsolable, vindictive people who like to torment each other endlessly over the authority of bishops and who most virtuously didn't know what to do with 'what's Caesar's.'

Yah.

If you want to speak for the 'unborn,' let's have a future waiting for those born.

Cause, frankly, even in your universe, the contents of your mortal brain you think you'll be able to 'take with you' don't look like the best ever place to spend infinite time. :)

You might actually find them a little embarrassing. Who knows.

It seems Reese is like those Cafeteria Catholics and picked the exit poll that agreed with his liberal view of the election.....I just read a national exit poll that stated McCain got 52% of the Catholic vote...so which poll is right?

Fr. Reese:

I really would like to be there on your judgement day, if you are still unrepentant, when you explain to Jesus an the millions of angels who are witnesses (these being aborted innocent babies you did NOTHING to help, and even made it owrse for them)..when you explain to Jesus and these little ones that it was OK to not only vote but to bolster and OK the belief it was OK to vote for one who will make sure the slaughter remains and is even more solidified....when you explin that economic reasons...money reasons were why you went the other way. As a Catholic, as a Christian, I cn say the Apostles would run you out of town if they were here. I made up my mind after this election, as I hope others will do as well, ..THATS IT..I am not letting wishy washy false teachers like you get away with it anymore..we will go to the Vatican with your statements, to Bishops, to Catholic Press, to friends and websites to point out your name but we will wage war with this type of evil, especially coming from our own house, our own Church. You have probably led others astray with your view. What did Jesus say about a man in sin..if we say nothing we are guilty of it as well..and how much more you in a position of representing Jesus!! It looks like your intellectual and other adventures have overtaken your living in the true Holy Spirit.

Oh come on. Catholics (faithful to church teachings or otherwise) don't mindlessly follow bishops rulings when they step into the voter's booth. They simply follow their own conscience. For me, I vote pro-life, but NOT because the bishops tell me to. I vote pro-life because I want to vote in line with what God says about what he loves and what he hates. God hates abortion, he hates this killing of innocent people. I honestly fear that there will be a reckoning someday from God for the national sin of abortion, and I love my country so much, I vote pro-life so as to do what I can to stave off his harsh judgement on us for this national holocaust. Look - you may not agree with my reasoning, but it IS a far cry from "mindlessly doing what the bishops say", is it not? Those who vote pro-life are voting out of a deep inner moral conviction, not out of mindless allegiance to their superiors in the church hierarchy. We agree with the bishops, but we did not take our opinions from them; their pronouncements confirm our own long held deep inner moral convictions about the heart and mind of God, and HIS views on this and other issues of our day.

A pastor I know says it this way: "We don't so much break God's laws, as much as we break ourselves upon them". I don't fear the bishops or their judgements. But God? Yes, him I do fear, and I vote accordingly. You don't have to agree, but please don't belittle me by labelling me as mindless.

To Robert_B1:

I don't think purgatory is what you should be worrying about - think a little hotter.

MichaelMaedoc :
We were told that gay marriage laws would not affect us but Catholic Charities in Massachusetts had to shut down their adoption agencies to avoid being forced to act against their belief.
**************************************************
Because they were receiving federal subsidies. They could have continued to exclude same-sex couples from consideration, if they had been willing to forfeit their federal funds. They chose to close instead.

I'd like to see a breakdown of those who actively practice the Catholic faith and those who call themselves "Catholic" but rarely or never attend Mass. My dad's whole side of the family considers themselves to be "Catholic" but I'm the only one aside from my 97-yr-old grandma who regularly attends Mass. The rest go max a couple times per year.

Not surprisingly, I'm the only one in the entire family who voted for Sen. McCain (my grandma is a lifelong Democrat from back in the day when being Irish Catholic meant unyielding allegiance to that party).

pennywise, to not take communion from a priest you don't agree with is a heresy. Very old and very well established heresy.

Donatists, they are called. The Wikipedia entry on it points out what correct Catholic teaching is on this matter:

"To the Catholics, a person who received the Eucharist from the hands of even an unrepentant sinning priest still received Christ's Body and Blood, their own sacramental life being undamaged by the priest's faults."

Be as mad as you want, but don't fall into heresy!

The reason the Church continues to lose members and has prominent members who do not follow Church teaching is the long list of weak willed Bishops and Priests who do not teach or preach. These are the same who are afraid of losing members of their church if they dare tell them what they are doing is wrong.

Instead they offer them platitudes and philosophies as homilies, instead of reminding them that actions have consequences in this world.
I would rather have a smaller Church of believers, than a larger church of people who do not follow the Word.

Shame on our Church leaders in the United States for their weakness in standing up for God and the teachings of his Church.

I don't see how this article's statistics follow, on the one hand, 54 percent went for Obama, which is close to the national average anyway, and Reese says:

"A closer look at the exit polls should be as discouraging for left-wing Catholics as for right-wing Catholics. Catholic voters did not embrace either the conservative non-negotiables or the church's preferential option for the poor. They were concerned about themselves and their families."

...So, the Catholic vote really wasn't influenced particularly on the abortion issue either way, but he still claims Catholics will be 'one issue' against a presidency over a Freedom of Choice Act, even with abortion reduction policies (that might get *pro-choice* support if the right to choose is not threatened by any 'pro-life measure' that crosses the Capitol steps, get it?)

I still haven't read anything about this 'Freedom of Choice Act,' ....it could be something someone on the Right *made up* for all I know.

But it sounds like the combination of guaranteeing women's rights and taking those real and practical steps to reduce abortions is a winning combination for all of us, to me.

But I think this article is trying to claim church influence on the one hand, (over a Catholic vote that's really not impressively-different from the national) but say that Catholics really didn't come out on this issue when it comes to saying anything about the 'Left.' Trying to have his cake and our cake and eat it too, sounds like. :)

Catholics are allowed to vote for a pro-choice candidate *if* there is an overriding moral concern that trumps abortion. For me, that overriding concern is that the GOP doesn't seem to want to care for children once they are outside of the womb.

If I am to spend more years in Purgatory for my choice, so be it.

Fr Reese,

I believe Obama will look at the model provided by New Labour & Tony Blair's assumption of power in 1997 and start cautiously. Blair ran a very tight ship up until 2000 and was rewarded with another landslide victory in 2001. After that, the game changed.

Now we know that all along Tony Blair was a Catholic, and took as his model the Christian Democratic parties of Western Europe, these started affiliated to Catholic labour movements in Europe and combined social justice with social conservatism in about equal amounts: to wit abortion on the continent is capped at 10-12 weeks, and when W Germany united with the East in 1991, East Germany lowered the unlimited abortion typical of communist regimes to the 12 week limit characteristic of the West.

If Obama signs the FOCA then the hard line feminists will have won, but I think what will happen is that he will increase the spend on anti-poverty programmes whilst ignoring abortion. I'm pretty sure abortion *rates* will rise, and rise sharply.. Hard times and cheap proceedures = more abortions.

Shame, that. Very sad and shameful. Anyway, I wish President Obama good luck and I send my good will to all.

Regards
Mary Cunningham
London

Rev. Thomas J. Reese is a heretic. Simple fact.

For faithful Catholics and Christian Protestant brethren; hold tight to your faith in Jesus Christ. God will have His justice on the wicked and unfaithful. It may be sooner than we think. May God have mercy on the unfaithful.

The real truth of whether or not TRUE catholics supported Obama will come when we see if there are long lines for the confessionals BEFORE these so-called "Catholics" go to Holy Communion.

Each and every "Catholic" vote was a sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church and all of these people must go and confess their sins before receiving the Eucharist.

I highly doubt we will see any remorse from these cafeteria Catholics who call themselves "Catholic". They are actually Protestant.

It would be helpful if the media was wise enough to make the distinction. Unfortunately, most media types don't have a clue either...and so the misconceptions of what "Catholicism" is are passed-on to the general public who only want to continue with their life of comfort and excess.

Catholics the world over will never be free to make their own decisions until they stop placing their blind faith and trust in the hands of the ordained church hierarchy.

Fortunately, over half the voting catholics in the United States do make informed decisions about their vote. They live in the real world and make practical choices from all their options; and not restrict their decisions based on eon-old dogma spouted by sexually dysfunctional old men for nomadic shepards living in tents.

The difference between Catholics and evangelicals is that with evangelicals, you don't need to teach them whom to vote. They already know in their hearts what is the right thing to do. They vote thru their conscience and values that are centered on what the scriptures says.

With Catholics, even after much persuasions from their leaders, they still seem at a lost. Lost like their religion.

The data is becoming more and more clear restrictions on abortion has an positive impact on abortion numbers and welfare programs do not. It is absurd to suggest that the complete removal of restrictions from abortion reduces abortion, in fact it has turned abortion into a form of birth control.

There is more at stake than numbers of abortions. Parents rights, freedom of religion, freedom of conscience... thats just the beginning.

We were told that gay marriage laws would not affect us but Catholic Charities in Massachusetts had to shut down their adoption agencies to avoid being forced to act against their belief. Roe v Wade was supposed to protect womens' health but abortion has become a form of birth control. Barack Obama was somehow made out to be a harmless moderate by the media but a look at his views and its clear how dangerous he can be.

Catholic Obama supporters can fight to hide all this, and dwell in their Obama party for now, but they should accept responsibility for what will be coming from an Obama administration. It won't be pretty.

I am very glad that the Catholic voters have had the integrity to follow their own consciences and not the edicts of their Bishops. Just to adopt a position "Because I was ordered to" is the abdication of personal responsibility.

Personally I regard this development as a sign of growing maturity among American Catholic voters. Monday Bishop Finn told them to consider their eternal salvation before voting Obama. Perhaps they also considered their salvation before deciding not to vote Obama? The next US Catholic Bishops' conference should be a very interesting meeting!

I am lost my lifelong faith in the Catholic Church. I will ask before I take communion, did you support Obama, if they did, I will move on. This was not the teachings of the church, and you of all, should know.

Fellow Catholics,
It's time to let the cafeteria catholics (those who pick and choose what they'll believe) go their own protestant way and the Catholics who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church to unite in parishes that are true to our faith. Stamp the dust from your feet as a testament against them and find a parish that is "home".

Better pull out the New Testicle and the Scotch, all ye Catholic Androids, aka Catholodroids.

Btw., every commentator has remarked on the grassroots organization, the fact that this campaign was the best organized in US history, brilliant. Tribute is being paid everywhere to David Axelrod and David Plouffe, their genius, etc.

Truth is unlike what the Christofascists and Islamofascists think, Jews have no power in this country. What they have is brains, social commitment, and a strong sense of JUSTICE. Comes from skipping the idolatry, cannibalism, etc. Guess all the bigots on this thread are getting it, albeit slowly.

Both Axelrod and Plouffe are Jews.