Saddleback Forum -- a Catholic View

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Hey,

It wasn’t long ago that I was wondering if I was the only one getting tired of football and the relentless mission to sanitise the game whilst exracting every penny possible out of the supporter.

I’m bored of the Premier League title being decided by which oil billionaire is the richest, I’m sick of seeing my season ticket shooting up in price to see some of the mercenaries that have donned the shirt in recent years and a set of England players who couldn’t care less. Well, after finding this site, it seems that I’m not alone.

The site, Footballers Wages, is a campaign to bring in salary caps to European football, like those used to great effect in sports around the world. The idea behind this one is to make football the competitive and exciting on-field sport that it once was, rather than the boardroom battle that it has now become and on top of that, a salary cap should help to save some clubs from themselves financially.

There seems to be some pretty high profile support for the campaign across Europe and even if it won’t make a difference, it can’t hurt to make our voices heard.

Thx

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Boxer’s False Statistic

On July 5, Sen. Boxer claimed that overturning Roe v. Wade would cost the lives of more than 5,000 pregnant women a year. That might have been true before the invention of penicillin and the birth control pill, but it's not true now. The best evidence indicates that the annual deaths from illegal abortions would number in the hundreds, not thousands.

Boxer made the claim to support her position that the repeal of Roe would be the sort of "extraordinary circumstance" that could justify use of the filibuster to stop the confirmation of a nominee to the Supreme Court. The Associated Press quoted her this way:

Boxer: It means a minimum of 5,000 women a year will die. So all options are on the table.

But Boxer was just wrong. The figure comes from a 1936 study by Dr. Frederick Taussig who estimated that abortion claimed the lives of 5,000 to 10,000 women a year. It is impossible to know if his figures are accurate, given that no reliable records exist on the total number of illegal abortions that occurred, much less the number of deaths. Taussig extrapolated the data from trends in New York City and Germany.

His estimate is at least plausible. Women had few means to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and illegal abortions were often performed in less than sanitary settings. Furthermore, penicillin wasn't in use until World War II, and not widely available to the civilian population until after the war ended in 1945. And Enovid, the first oral contraceptive, wasn't available until 1957. But whether Taussig's estimate was accurate or not, the conditions of the 1930's don't apply today.

From the 1940s through the 1960s, in fact, the best available evidence shows a dramatic decline in abortion-related deaths occurring even before the first states liberalized abortion laws in 1967. The Journal of the American Medical Association quotes official estimates from the National Center for Health Statistics showing an 89 percent decrease in abortion-related deaths by 1966. That is based on counting the number of death certificates that listed complications from abortion as the cause of death. The numbers reported for any given year are assuredly low since doctors could easily misstate the cause of death to protect the family. Still, these are the only figures that allow comparisons over time. There's no reason to think that the rate of under-reporting would vary from one year to another, and so little reason to doubt that a steep downward trend took place long before Roe was decided.

Christopher Tietze, one of the leading experts on abortion trends, wrote in 1969 that it was plausible that 5,000 women a year died from abortion in the 1930s, but concluded that it cannot be anywhere near the true rate now.” He said that, although the 235 formally listed on death certificates in 1965 was too low, “in all likelihood it (the actual number) was under 1,000." An abortion statistics expert at the Guttmacher Institute, Stanley Henshaw, is studying abortion rates during the first part of the century. Though his data collection is unfinished, Henshaw concurred that Tietze’s estimate of fewer than 1,000 deaths is “reasonable.”

Boxer would have been correct to say that some increase in deaths of pregnant women would result should abortions be made illegal. But the number is much lower than she claimed. In 1972, the last year before Roe v. Wade legalized abortion nationwide, CDC counted only 39 deaths from illegal abortions based on surveys of health care providers, medical examiners' reports, state and national records, and news reports. However, Henshaw said it’s difficult to quantify the number of deaths that could result today if Roe were overturned. For one thing, it is not clear how many states would actually make abortions illegal again. And Henshaw noted it is unlikely that the numbers of deaths would be as high as they were before 1973 due to medical advances and emergency services available today. In any case, Boxer's 5,000 figure was nearly 70 years out of date, and clearly wrong...

http://www.factcheck.org/society/abortion_distortions.html

Boxer, a Democrat, claimed that repeal of Roe “means a minimum of 5,000 women a year will die” from illegal abortions. But that's a 69-year-old figure dating to a time before penicillin and the birth-control pill. Experts say nowhere near that many women were dying from abortion complications even in the years just before Roe made abortions legal nationwide...

Boxer, a Democrat, claimed that repeal of Roe “means a minimum of 5,000 women a year will die” from illegal abortions. But that's a 69-year-old figure dating to a time before penicillin and the birth-control pill. Experts say nowhere near that many women were dying from abortion complications even in the years just before Roe made abortions legal nationwide...

http://www.factcheck.org/society/abortion_distortions.html

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Saddleback Form-Why wasn't the question ask of McCain, if when a Supreme Court Justice was picked, would abortion be discussed? YOu know we are really being dooped. It's easy for a candidate to pick abortion or non-abortion because nothing can be done until the supreme court reverses the rulling. I think this is all side stepping the real issues facing us. How are people going to afford their houses, cars and food. THE CANDIDATES DON'T KNOW.

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Whether Catholic clergy are held to a "higher standard", or merely a different one, is open for discussion.

And even Catholic clergy can miss the mark. You said, with respect to the recent Pelosi controversy, that it is a great mistake for politicians to talk theology. Do you really quite believe that is the mistake that politicians make when it comes to the interface between their political and religious lives?

Hardly.

SENATOR OBAMA PLEASE LET AMERICA KNOW YOUR TRUE FEELINGS CONCERNING THIS AMERICAN JUDICIAL INJUSTICE ???

WITH 80% OF THE BLACK AMERICAN VOTERS SAYING THEY SUPPORT SENATOR OBAMA IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, IT IS ONLY FAIR FOR EVERYONE TO KNOW PRIOR BEING ELECTED OUR NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HOW THIS DEMOCRATIC SENATOR TRUELY FEELS ABOUT THIS AMERICAN JUDICIAL HORROR CONTINUING TO INFLICT GRAVE HARM ON THE BLACK AMERICAN FAMILIES AND THEIR COMMUNITIES NATIONWIDE ??????

** SADLY THIS REPRESSIVE JUDICIAL INJUSTICE HAS BECOME AN AMERICAN ART FORM !!!

*** WHEN GOD’S FACE BECAME VERY RED ***
THE US SUPREME COURT GAVE ENEMY COMBATANTS FEDERAL APPEAL HC RIGHTS LAWYERS AND PROPER ACCESS TO US FEDERAL COURTS,AND POORER AMERICANS (MANY EVEN ON DEATH ROW) ARE DENIED PROPER FEDERAL APPEAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO OUR US FEDERAL COURTS OF APPEAL, AND ROTTING IN AMERICAN PRISONS NATIONWIDE ?????????

**** INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH THEIR FEDERAL APPEALS !
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE $LOWLY FINDING OUT HOW EA$Y IT I$ FOR MIDDLE CLA$$ AND WORKING POOR AMERICAN$ TO FALL VICTIM TO OUR U$ MONETARY JUDICIAL $Y$TEM.

****WHEN THE US INNOCENT WERE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ****
The prison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.
Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.

This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.

This devious and deceptive judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!

Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!

For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.

It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.

This FACADE and HORROR of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!

***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT, BECOME THE GUILTY!
A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE::
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM.
** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !

lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com

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Senator Obama's pro-choice position comes from his church - The United Church of Christ position on abortion!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read Professor Thistlethwaite's essay as confirmation of the UCC position. She is a theologian who teaches that view to pastors in training at her seminary.

Senator Obama was expressing not only his view as a lawyer supporting Roe vs Wade, he is also expressing his view as an ex member of UCC, whose Christian values were shaped by a UCC pastor.

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No matter whether one is pro- or anti- abortion, medical science informs us that the growing child in the womb is a human being in development.

Legally, the right to life comes before right to convenience or happiness. So strictly speaking Roe vs Wade as the mother's right to abort her growing child will ALWAYS remain:

Right of a woman to her convenience/"happiness" without taking responsibility for producing the child vs Right of a growing child in the womb to its LIFE

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It seems likely that about half of all Roman Catholics are pro-choice - and certainly a good many more practice standard forms of birth control not sanctioned by the Church. It seems that large numbers of people decide when they've actually committed a sin - or when they've made a necessary choice.

The prospective mother appears to have invoilable rights to the life within according to natural law - and per this article, there are many ways to reduce the abortion rate other than banning abortion outright, and/or levying inappropriate punishments on women that find this (very personal) procedure necessary.

Punishing women for refusing to be mothers seems not only counter-intuitive, but violates several of the personal freedoms that we hold so dear in the USA.

Roe v Wade should stand - and will stand as the law of the land.

Vote Obama/Biden to preserve the natural rights and the freedom to choose of all citizens, including mothers-to-be.

The Catholic Church needs to present anti-abortion literature to Catholics with scientific material on fetal development and abortion procedures to support the view of the Church.

Knowledge alone will not stop a woman from aborting her child if she chooses to, but at least she will do it with full knowledge, without being misled by pro-abortion propaganda.

For three and a half decades abortion has been marketed as "reproductive choice," as late term contraception. By referring to the growing baby in the womb as a clump of cells/parasite etc, the real nature of abortion has been denied, namely the killing of an unborn child.

When such a propaganda has been around for so long, it is no wonder that it has become part of the normal thinking process and women are able to abort their children without qualms. It is a wonder, considering how aggressively a pro-abortionist propaganda has been propagated for so long that pro-life groups have not given up.

Proper education about what abortion is really about needs to be stepped up. At least consciences that have not yet been hardened by the pro-abortionist propaganda should be made aware and sensitive to the real science concerning abortion.

The hardened responses of pro-abortionists on various threads of this forum, whether believer or atheist, shows that those who have bought into the propaganda over several years are beyond reach.

The hope for change lies with the young who are still uncorrupted by pro-abortion lies.

It doesn't take rocket science to understand how men benefit from a pro-abortion attitude in women.

It is blood chilling to see how women have chosen to iron out their biological differences with men in their sexuality by becoming baby-killers.

A Catholic in defense of Rev Rick Warren ---

Senators Obama and McCain are NOT Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Jain etc.

Therefore they cannot be expected to answer faith based questions from the point of view of religions or Christian interpretations they do not practice. At best one would hear the politically correct answers their advisers have prepared for them. Of what use is that?

A mega-church pastor on the other hand has the advantage of being non-denominational. Rev Warren has for many years specialized in training church leaders, so he is familiar with the process of looking for and teaching leadership qualities from a Christian perspective.

Instead of having politicians mimic pastors in political campaigns for the benefit of the public, it was better to have them present their religious convictions to the public and be done with it, so that they are not forced to play a role they are not meant to, and do not use religious display as a political tool at every political rally.

Fr Reese, please remember to post Catholic views to ALL questions on this forum.

WHERE ARE AMERICA'S RELIGIOUS LEADERS ?

*** SADLY THIS REPRESSIVE JUDICIAL INJUSTICE HAS BECOME AN AMERICAN ART FORM !!!

** WHEN GOD'S FACE BECAME VERY RED **
THE US SUPREME COURT GAVE ENEMY COMBATANTS FEDERAL APPEAL HC RIGHTS LAWYERS AND PROPER ACCESS TO US FEDERAL COURTS,AND POORER AMERICANS (MANY EVEN ON DEATH ROW ) ARE DENIED PROPER FEDERAL APPEAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO US FEDERAL COURTS OF APPEAL, AND ROTTING IN AMERICAN PRISONS NATIONWIDE ??????

**** INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH THEIR FEDERAL APPEALS !
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE $LOWLY FINDING OUT HOW EA$Y IT I$ FOR MIDDLE CLA$$ AND WORKING POOR AMERICAN$ TO FALL VICTIM TO OUR U$ MONETARY JUDICIAL $Y$TEM.

****WHEN THE US INNOCENT WERE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ****
The prison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.

Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.

This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.

This devious and deceptive judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!

Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!

For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.

It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.

This FACADE and HORROR of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!

***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT, BECOME THE GUILTY!

A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE::
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM. ** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !

lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com 424-247-2013

An interesting article on the topic of abortion:

"Beyond the legal right; why liberals and feminists don't like to talk about the morality of abortion" by Jason DeParle

Washington Monthly, April, 1989

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n3_v21/ai_7537791?tag=artBody;col1

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“to do judgment and justice”
“And the king made of the almug trees pillars for the house of the Lord”
“Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year”
“was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold”
“The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season”
“And Judah and Israel dwelt safely”
“every man under his vine and under his fig tree”
“from Dan even to Beersheba”
“all the days of Solomon”
“Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much”
“largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.”
“Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country”
“and all the wisdom of Egypt”
“he spake of trees”
“the hyssop that springeth out of the wall”
“he spake also of beasts”
“and of fowl”
“and of creeping things”
“and of fishes”
“there came of all people to hear the wisdom of Solomon”
“in the land. Judah and Israel were many”
“as the sand which is by the sea in multitude”
“Solomon reigned over all kingdoms”
“they brought presents”
“served Solomon all the days of his life”
“Solomon brought in the things which David his father had dedicated”
“did he put among the treasures of the house of the Lord”
“Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women”
“upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir”
“Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear”
“forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;”
“With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought”
“they shall enter into the king's palace”
“I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations”
“therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.”

“Shebuel the son of Gershom, the son of Moses”
“was ruler of the treasures”

La China, one wonderful mother the human species could learn from:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7577275.stm

Since there are enough Obstetricians willing to perform abortions, those who have a serious problem with it should be freed from the obligation to do so.

Hopefully Senator Obama and Senator Biden, if elected in November will support Physician Conscience on abortion.

Contraception up to the point of implantation is not abortion. After implantation the embryo should be protected.

Availability of contraceptives is one way to reduce abortions, so it should never be restricted in anyway.

A physician should be able to able to follow his conscience and say NO to performing abortions.

Blog of Secretary Mike Leavitt on Physician Conscience:

http://secretarysblog.hhs.gov/my_weblog/2008/08/physician-con-2.html#comments

diflucan weekly

“the room where the Last Supper was held.”

An ancient monastery adjacent to where, according to Christian tradition, Jesus ate the Last Supper, has turned into a legal battleground for Catholics and Jews.
Last week the High Court of Justice issued a temporary restraining order halting construction work by a Jewish organization in a Franciscan monastery on Jerusalem's Mount Zion adjacent to the Cenaculum, the Latin term for the room where the Last Supper was held.

The upper room of the same building is known as the Room of the Descent of the Holy Spirit. On the first floor is "David's Tomb."
In chapter two of the Acts of Apostles, Peter describes the place, mentioning that it is near David's Tomb.

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

“But Jesus said unto him, Follow me”
“let the dead bury their dead.”
“There is a slaughter among the people that follow Absalom”
“the wood devoured more people that day than the sword devoured”
“Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house”
“all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father”
“then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong”
“So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house”
“And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom”
“ten young men that bare Joab's armour compassed about and smote Absalom”
“and slew him”
“And they took Absalom”
“cast him into a great pit in the wood”
“and laid a very great heap of stones upon him”
“I have no son to keep my name in remembrance”
“it is called unto this day, Absalom's place”

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

“Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples”
“the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty”
“by the mouth of David spake”

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

“Peter rose up, and said unto them”
“Men and brethren”
“ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us”
“that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word”
“and believe”

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

“Then Peter opened his mouth”
“Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons”
“the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty”
“But in every nation he that feareth him”
“and worketh righteousness”
“is accepted with him”

And Hushai said unto Absalom, The counsel that Ahithophel hath given is not good at this time.
For, said Hushai, thou knowest thy father and his men, that they be mighty men, and they be chafed in their minds, as a bear robbed of her whelps in the field: and thy father is a man of war, and will not lodge with the people.
Behold, he is hid now in some pit, or in some other place: and it will come to pass, when some of them be overthrown at the first, that whosoever heareth it will say, There is a slaughter among the people that follow Absalom.
And he also that is valiant, whose heart is as the heart of a lion, shall utterly melt: for all Israel knoweth that thy father is a mighty man, and they which be with him are valiant men.
Therefore I counsel that all Israel be generally gathered unto thee, from Dan even to Beersheba, as the sand that is by the sea for multitude; and that thou go to battle in thine own person.
So shall we come upon him in some place where he shall be found, and we will light upon him as the dew falleth on the ground: and of him and of all the men that are with him there shall not be left so much as one.

“Behold, he is hid now in some pit, or in some other place”
“and it will come to pass, when some of them be overthrown at the first”
“There is a slaughter among the people that follow Absalom”
“Therefore I counsel that all Israel be generally gathered unto thee”
“from Dan even to Beersheba”
“as the sand that is by the sea for multitude”
“So shall we come upon him in some place where he shall be found”
“we will light upon him as the dew falleth on the ground”
“of him and of all the men that are with him there shall not be left so much as one.”

Now Absalom had commanded his servants, saying, Mark ye now when Amnon's heart is merry with wine, and when I say unto you, Smite Amnon; then kill him, fear not: have not I commanded you? be courageous, and be valiant.
And the servants of Absalom did unto Amnon as Absalom had commanded. Then all the king's sons arose, and every man gat him up upon his mule, and fled.
And it came to pass, while they were in the way, that tidings came to David, saying, Absalom hath slain all the king's sons, and there is not one of them left.

“Absalom had commanded his servants”
“Mark ye now when Amnon's heart is merry with wine”
“when I say unto you, Smite Amnon”
“then kill him, fear not”
“have not I commanded you? be courageous, and be valiant.”

And the soul of king David longed to go forth unto Absalom: for he was comforted concerning Amnon, seeing he was dead.

“for he was comforted concerning Amnon, seeing he was dead.”

Then said Absalom to Ahithophel, Give counsel among you what we shall do.
And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong.
So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.
And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counselled in those days, was as if a man had inquired at the oracle of God: so was all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom.

“Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house”
“all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father”
“then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong”
“So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house”

So the people went out into the field against Israel: and the battle was in the wood of Ephraim;
Where the people of Israel were slain before the servants of David, and there was there a great slaughter that day of twenty thousand men.
For the battle was there scattered over the face of all the country: and the wood devoured more people that day than the sword devoured.
And Absalom met the servants of David. And Absalom rode upon a mule, and the mule went under the thick boughs of a great oak, and his head caught hold of the oak, and he was taken up between the heaven and the earth; and the mule that was under him went away.
And a certain man saw it, and told Joab, and said, Behold, I saw Absalom hanged in an oak.
And Joab said unto the man that told him, And, behold, thou sawest him, and why didst thou not smite him there to the ground? and I would have given thee ten shekels of silver, and a girdle.
And the man said unto Joab, Though I should receive a thousand shekels of silver in mine hand, yet would I not put forth mine hand against the king's son: for in our hearing the king charged thee and Abishai and Ittai, saying, Beware that none touch the young man Absalom.
Otherwise I should have wrought falsehood against mine own life: for there is no matter hid from the king, and thou thyself wouldest have set thyself against me.
Then said Joab, I may not tarry thus with thee. And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom, while he was yet alive in the midst of the oak.
And ten young men that bare Joab's armour compassed about and smote Absalom, and slew him.
And Joab blew the trumpet, and the people returned from pursuing after Israel: for Joab held back the people.
And they took Absalom, and cast him into a great pit in the wood, and laid a very great heap of stones upon him: and all Israel fled every one to his tent.
Now Absalom in his lifetime had taken and reared up for himself a pillar, which is in the king's dale: for he said, I have no son to keep my name in remembrance: and he called the pillar after his own name: and it is called unto this day, Absalom's place.

“the battle was in the wood of Ephraim”
“the wood devoured more people that day than the sword devoured”
“Absalom rode upon a mule, and the mule went under the thick boughs of a great oak”
“he was taken up between the heaven and the earth”
“the mule that was under him went away.”
“And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom”
“ten young men that bare Joab's armour compassed about and smote Absalom”
“and slew him”
“And they took Absalom”
“cast him into a great pit in the wood”
“and laid a very great heap of stones upon him”
“I have no son to keep my name in remembrance”
“it is called unto this day, Absalom's place”

Then said Ahimaaz the son of Zadok yet again to Joab, But howsoever, let me, I pray thee, also run after Cushi. And Joab said, Wherefore wilt thou run, my son, seeing that thou hast no tidings ready?
But howsoever, said he, Let me run. And he said unto him, Run. Then Ahimaaz ran by the way of the plain, and overran Cushi.
And David sat between the two gates: and the watchman went up to the roof over the gate unto the wall, and lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold a man running alone.
And the watchman cried, and told the king. And the king said, If he be alone, there is tidings in his mouth. And he came apace, and drew near.
And the watchman saw another man running: and the watchman called unto the porter, and said, Behold another man running alone. And the king said, He also bringeth tidings.
And the watchman said, Me thinketh the running of the foremost is like the running of Ahimaaz the son of Zadok. And the king said, He is a good man, and cometh with good tidings.
And Ahimaaz called, and said unto the king, All is well. And he fell down to the earth upon his face before the king, and said, Blessed be the Lord thy God, which hath delivered up the men that lifted up their hand against my lord the king.
And the king said, Is the young man Absalom safe? And Ahimaaz answered, When Joab sent the king's servant, and me thy servant, I saw a great tumult, but I knew not what it was.
And the king said unto him, Turn aside, and stand here. And he turned aside, and stood still.
And, behold, Cushi came; and Cushi said, Tidings, my lord the king: for the Lord hath avenged thee this day of all them that rose up against thee.
And the king said unto Cushi, Is the young man Absalom safe? And Cushi answered, The enemies of my lord the king, and all that rise against thee to do thee hurt, be as that young man is.
And the king was much moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept: and as he went, thus he said, O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!

There is a strong scientific case against abortion.

It was made almost two thousand five hundred years ago by a Greek pagan, Hippocrates, the Father of Western medicine.

Modern science, human embryology, fetology, ultrasound etc has merely confirmed what mankind has always known, that a human child develops in stages in the womb, and is not dead at any stage, although it is non-existent before conception.

In his talk at Planned Parenthood, Senator Obama expressed a typical pro-abortion stand.

He looks upon Roe vs Wade as hard fought and won right of women to abort the children they don't want. There was no reference to a deeply moral issue in that talk.

A Catholic could accept Senator Obama based on his social policies and his desire to help reduce abortions. His pro-abortion stand as right of a woman however remains unchanged. He has merely sought to dilute it by claiming later that it is a deeply moral issue.

A right cannot be a deeply moral issue. One does not claim as a right an issue that has deep moral implications, in this case nothing less than a matter of life and death for an innocent, defenseless, unborn child.

IF I HAD A HAMMER (The Hammer Song)
words and music by Lee Hays and Pete Seeger

If I had a hammer
I'd hammer in the morning
I'd hammer in the evening
All over this land
I'd hammer out danger
I'd hammer out a warning
I'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.
The mother of Sisera looked out at a window, and cried through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of his chariots?
Her wise ladies answered her, yea, she returned answer to herself,
Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?
So let all thine enemies perish, O Lord: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years.

Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.
But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.
But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.
Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

If I had a bell
I'd ring it in the morning
I'd ring it in the evening
All over this land
I'd ring out danger
I'd ring out a warning
I'd ring out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the Lord.

And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the Lord continually.
And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.
And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue.
And there shall be an hole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the hole of an habergeon, that it be not rent.
And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:
A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.
And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the Lord, and when he cometh out, that he die not.
And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord.

Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

If I had a song
I'd sing it in the morning
I'd sing it in the evening
All over this land
I'd sing out danger
I'd sing out a warning
I'd sing out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.
And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together.

Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
One shall say, I am the Lord's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the Lord, and surname himself by the name of Israel.
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

Well I've got a hammer
And I've got a bell
And I've got a song to sing
All over this land
It's the hammer of justice
It's the bell of freedom
It's the song about love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king
Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.
And he was king in Jeshurun
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel

Senator Obama agrees that abortion is a deeply moral issue ---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlY9HFRNUHs&feature=related

Senator Obama on Abortion ---

He trusts women to make the right decision in consultation with their doctors and clergy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCifpbfQlOM&NR=1

At Planned Parenthood ---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUl99id2SvM&feature=related

And your self-righteous condemnation of religions is part of that ego trip Richard Thomas.

Richard Thomas, you have just proved with your post that spirituality could also be a deluded ego trip.

There is a big difference between spirituality and religion. Spirituality doesn’t have any dogma, fiction, or perversion. Spirituality is simply based on everything being connected and part of one body, with One Being behind it all. This is what Jesus A Christ was trying to communicate. It is that simple.

Politics being how various needs and wants are expressed and met or obtained how combined efforts are implemented and what joint ventures are formed and funded. Politics should include the view that we are all one; part of the same body. Religion should not be involved in Politics because it has become perverse in the eyes of the Lord it has become the house of hypocrisy not the House of God.

What is disturbing is how fast both candidates were swept into the Illusion, each not daring to question the popular fiction.

CHURCH: a body or organization of religious believers

FAITH: a system of religious beliefs

There is no difference yet neither candidate questioned it and was able to see through the Illusion created by Rick Warren. In other words he was propagating a fiction.

RELIGION IS AN EGO CREATION NOT ONE OF SPIRIT - scripture says and we are warned that the Churches (institutionalized religion) are the Antichrist; which must be true if we have Faith in Scripture?

McCain with his understandable doubts about the existence of a God resulting from his experience in prison camp, and Obama doesn’t really buy the Jesus died for our sins crap.

Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian. Furthermore the Christians should be thanking the Jews for crucifying Jesus since their act actually redeemed Christians, Jesus could have just committed suicide to die for your sins right?
What this character Jesus did was refuse to buy into the worlds fictions and he set the ultimate example of being steadfast in the truth.

Religion is one big fiction, and it was people protecting The Religion that crucified Jesus because he questioned the fiction and saw through it.

So if anyone really wants to honor Jesus, start ripping the fictions apart with your rational logical discerning minds and live steadfast in the truth, don’t sell out to the ego empire.

Remember a divided people are a weak people. This is what allows 10,000 to take advantage and make subservient the other 300 million people in the United States.

Religion is being used to divide you amongst your selves, in the US and other countries. It is one of the most effective weapons of the source disconnected ego to protect it's fictional world. Religion is a behavioral control mechanism a producer of shame, guilt and irrational conformity.

Most people have no idea what love is, because love that comes with a condition is not love. There is only one source of love, and one can choose to be a channel for it or not.

Why die and go to Heaven when you can bring it to you?

If I recall correctly Jesus once said something like “I am in your world but not of your world”. He was speaking of the world of fiction that most are living in which still persists today but looks like it is in it's end days and the Ego empire is going to fall.

Divine Source connected - Ego Divine
Divine Source disconnected - Ego Bastard

Yes, faith meaning trust is a verb not a noun. The word has been perverted by the Ego and made into a false idol.

As part of care for unborn children destined for abortion, ORPHANAGES to accommodate 93% 1.4 million children for eighteen years need to be built.

Adoption needs to be made easier.

A careful search must be made for criminal gangs who would find use for unwanted orphan children.

Abuse in foster homes need to be monitored.

It is the same Catholic Church that calls abortion as murder of innocent, defenseless children growing in their mother's womb, that does most for disadvantaged women.

The Catholic Church does NOT ignore the plight of women/mothers in difficult circumstances or orphans abandoned by their parents.

When 4% of Catholic clergy were found guilty of sexual abuse of minors, why didn't people say, let us forget about the 4% Catholic clergy who sexually abuse children/minors and concentrate on the good done by 96% of Catholic clergy?

If sexual abuse of children/minors is wrong, and action to be taken to prevent it, so is abortion wrong and action needs to be taken to address the issue, and the first action is to call abortion of healthy unborn children by its real NAME - murder of innocent, defenseless children by mothers who don't want them.

Let's worry about the kids that are already here, rather than the ones that are in utero. The U.S. has an relatively high infant mortality rate - 6.86 deaths per 1000 - in comparison to other developed countries. What are anti-abortion people doing about that? What about preventing birth defects? Providing pre-natal care? Expanding child care for newborns?

A constitutional lawyer is unable to defend the the right of life of an unborn child based on the constitution because the child has not been registered as a growing child legally except in inheritance laws and in harm done to the growing child by an external agent against the will of the mother.

Medical science recognizes the child as a separate human being from the time of conception. But the law recognizes it as a separate human being only when the child is able to live independent of the mother's body.

A human embryo/fetus is a growing child in the womb whether the law of the land grants it any right to its life or not.

When the growing child in the womb should be granted its right to life is a legal stand based on when an external agent can intervene to protect the life of the child against the wishes of its mother.

The legal stand that only a viable fetus may be granted right to life has nothing to do with what medical science understands about the life of the unborn but only what medical science can provide in terms of keeping a baby outside its mother's womb alive against the wishes of the mother.

The legal stand that only a viable fetus may be granted right to life has NOTHING to do with the understanding of the value of life as per religion/Christianity.

Anonymous:

Anon, "Scientifically a human embryo/fetus is worthy of human rights from the time of conception."

What do you call it when the fetus aborts itself? Do they still maintain the same human rights that you assertain?

An embryo is not considered a viable fetus, the embryonic stage ceases at 12 weeks in utero. Which to date science had not been able to manipulate the sustaining of life for such.

August 20, 2008 7:41 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Miscarriage and stillbirth is loss of pregnancy from NATURAL CAUSES before and after the 20th week of pregnancy respectively.

By natural causes means that the embryo/fetus is not acted upon by an EXTERNAL AGENT to kill it.

An embryo/fetus does not CHOOSE to abort itself, just as a sick child does not choose to die of any illness, nor does any child kill itself no matter how ill it is.

Does a born child or adult have the right to die of illness, if there is no cure for the illness or the parents/persons cannot afford the treatment that maybe available either in their own land or somewhere else on the planet? Is a parent held responsible for the death of a child from an illness/accident/murder? Is any parent taken to court for not providing treatment for the illness of their child if they could not afford it?

But if a parent chooses to kill the ill child because they could not afford treatment or did not want to be inconvenienced in any way due to the child's illness, they are rightly charged with murder.

--------------

A human embryo is termed a fetus after EIGHT WEEKS.

----------------------
Anti-abortionists are AGAINST the use of an EXTERNAL AGENT TO KILL A DEVELOPING HUMAN BABY IN THE WOMB NO MATTER HOW YOUNG IT IS. Abortion in 93% of cases is opted by healthy mothers of healthy babies growing in their womb, for socio-economic reasons. In those cases the freedom of the mother to her convenience is chosen over the right of the growing child to its very life.

RIGHT OF CONVENIENCE OF THE MOTHER vs RIGHT OF LIFE OF THE GROWING CHILD

The right to life only of a viable fetus is a legal stand, not a medical one.

Fetologists and neonatal pediatricians are not required to keep a healthy fetus alive. Anti-abortionists only demand that they NOT BE KILLED by an external agent.

When death of embryo/fetus occurs due to natural causes/illness it is not termed abortion.

Anonymous:

Anon, "Scientifically a human embryo/fetus is worthy of human rights from the time of conception."

What do you call it when the fetus aborts itself? Do they still maintan the same human rights that you assertain?

An embryo is not considered a viable fetus, the embryonic stage ceases at 12 weeks in utero. Which to date science had not been able to munipulate the sustaining of life for such.

August 20, 2008 7:41 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Miscarriage

- loss of unborn child before 20th wk of pregnancy

Stillbirth

- loss of unborn child after 20th wk of pregnancy

Information from an online source:

"Miscarriage is the term health care providers use to describe the loss of pregnancy from natural causes before the 20th week of pregnancy.

Most miscarriages occur very early in pregnancy, in some cases before a woman even knows she is pregnant. Researchers estimate that, among women who already know they are pregnant, nearly 15 percent will have a miscarriage...

"There are many different causes for miscarriage, some of them known and others unknown. In most cases, there is nothing a woman can do to prevent a miscarriage...

"Having a miscarriage can be devastating to a woman and her family. A woman or family who is having trouble coping with the loss of a miscarriage should ask a health care provider...

The NICHD supports and conducts research on the causes of miscarriage in hopes of finding ways to prevent women from having them...

For more information on NICHD-supported research on miscarriage, read the Institute's news releases on miscarriage. The National Library of Medicine provides additional information on pregnancy loss, which includes miscarriage...

STILLBIRTH

"Stillbirth is the term health care providers use to describe the loss of a pregnancy after the 20th week of pregnancy, due to natural causes. According to national statistics, stillbirths occur in nearly one in 200 pregnancies in the United States every year.

"Stillbirth can occur before delivery, or as a result of complications during labor and delivery. In at least half of all cases, researchers can find no cause for the pregnancy loss.

"In some cases of stillbirth, the mother may notice a decrease in the movement or kicking of the fetus...

"Stillbirth can be devastating to a woman and her family...

Source Link: http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=40784

Anonymous:

anon, "As to fertilization vs conception:

Not every fertilized ovum implants itself in the wall of the uterus of its mother to proceed to develop into a baby. It takes about seven days for the fertilized ovum to implant itself, when it does. One can say that the mother "conceives" only when her uterus permits the fertilized ovum to implant itself to proceed with the growth of the baby. The real mother-baby connection is made at that stage."

Good research, but here is a question for you to research this further, "does the zygot sustain any growth before implantation? If so, what are the stages of growth? And at stage did the growth begin? What type of growth was it, i.e. entail what the transformation process was?"

August 20, 2008 7:33 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I suggest YOU do the research and post the answers.

As a non-Catholic, I specifically clicked on your article from the Google search to read your comments, to gain a perspective different from my own. Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful comments on how to determine if faith-based questions give answers that really reveal anything about a candidate's positions and public policy opinions. I find myself agreeing with you about what types of questions are useful.

A: Religious Breakdown (%)of US population
Catholic 24
Evangelical 26
Historic Black 6
MainlineProt. 18

Total 74

B % Saying "religion is very important to them"

Catholic 56
Evangelical 79
Historic Black 85
MainlineProt 52

Assuming that antipathy to abortion is coincident with a religion being important (as most Christians are against abortion of ethical grounds) we can thus estimatehow many Americans are against abortion as a matter of their Christian ethics. We multiply A by B and sum.

US Population for whom religion is very important (and for whom abortion is against their ethics as a Christian):

Catholic 13.44
Evangelical 20.54
Historic Black 5.1
MainlineP 9.36

Total: 48.44

Therefore we can say with some confidence: 1 out of every 2 American adults is against abortion. Abortion as a matter of convenience is doomed.

How revealing that the comments virtually ignore the real message of Mr. Reese and turn this into another forum of anti-abortion ranting. Reese made the best case I have ever seen of how to distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate questions to ask a presidential candidate about religion and his/her religious beliefs. I agree 100 percent with his observations and applaud him for making them.

We are on dangerous grounds to assume that some one religious leader has a right to insist that candidates appear at his particular forum. What a massive display of ego for any one of them to think he does. Reese is right to at least put this question on the table. Why Warren--and not James Dobson? Or the head of the Mormon Church? Or a Catholic Archbishop? Or a Jewish rabbi? Muslim ulema? In the future, these types of affairs should be ecumenical, and they should adhere to the criteria put forward by Reese.

Now, to the Catholic anti-abortion ranters, let me put these questions:

1. Do you have equally strong feelings about Americans--particularly children--who lack medical insurance?
2. What are you doing to provide for the children who are born as a result of an unwanted pregnancy? Especially those born into poor families, or to a teenager, or an unemployed mother, or a single mother who lacks the financial and parenting resources to raise a child. Catholics are accused of caring more about fetuses than living children. Are you one of those? What did you do to put an end to the sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests, before it became a matter of wide public knowledge? What have you done since to take care of the abused and to make sure it does not happen again?
3. What is your position on the use of condoms and birth control pills? They are the single most effective way of avoiding unwanted pregnancies.
4. Did you know this: Texas spends $17 million a year—more than any other state—on abstinence-only sex education programs. The rate of Texas high school students having sexual intercourse, according to federal statistics, stands at 52.9 percent compared 47.8 percent nationally.
5. Do you agree with your Pope that the souls of all non-Catholics have no prayer of getting to heaven?

Anon, "Scientifically a human embryo/fetus is worthy of human rights from the time of conception."

What do you call it when the fetus aborts itself? Do they still maintan the same human rights that you assertain?

An embryo is not considered a viable fetus, the embryonic stage ceases at 12 weeks in utero. Which to date science had not been able to munipulate the sustaining of life for such.

anon, "As to fertilization vs conception:

Not every fertilized ovum implants itself in the wall of the uterus of its mother to proceed to develop into a baby. It takes about seven days for the fertilized ovum to implant itself, when it does. One can say that the mother "conceives" only when her uterus permits the fertilized ovum to implant itself to proceed with the growth of the baby. The real mother-baby connection is made at that stage."

Good research, but here is a question for you to research this further, "does the zygot sustain any growth before implantation? If so, what are the stages of growth? And at stage did the growth begin? What type of growth was it, i.e. entail what the transformation process was?"

UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)

Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

Why women have abortions

1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest;

6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and

93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient)

ceflynline@msn.com:

Let's play with demographic trends. Catholics are now about 25% of the population, of which, say, 5%, no make it 10%, are Latino. Latinos comprise about 15% of the American population, due to double in 30 (?) years. Assuming the proportion of Latinos in the American Catholics stays constant, and that the current movement of baby boomer 'ethnics' out of the Church is over we can see the proportion of Catholics in the *total* American population nudge upwards:

15% core 'ethnic', evangelical converts
25% Latino and descendants

40% thus of the Am pop. would be Catholic, by far the largest Christian group. In future, the United States might not be the sole leader of the developed world, but it would certainly dominate worldwide Catholicism.

And there the two candidates are: making nicey-nicey with the evangelicals ignoring the *real * future power!

Should the Catholic Church participate in politics?

Patrick Sarsfield,

I think the Church is right to abstain. Nowhere is Catholicism the established religion, although in many countries it is by far the in the *majority* and the lack of an obvious political preference has not harmed it.

If you want to see the terrible muddle an established church can find itself look no further than the Church of England: tied to a political establishment committed to gender, sexual, racial equality--fine for a political party, but contradictory and catastrophic for an ancient apostolic church with its male priesthood. Yet, because it is the established church, the Anglicans are stymied— in the name of gender equality any gov’t will force its church towards a female priesthood (to a Catholic a contradiction in terms).

When I look at the mess in which Anglicans in England find themselves and—worse!—at the disintegration of what was once a viable Episcopalian Church in the US I breathe a sigh of relief and thank the Holy Spirit for protecting Christ’s church!

The positive aspect about Roe vs Wade is that it is not a mandate for abortion and protects abortionists who prevent women from using the service of quacks.

The negative aspect of Roe vs Wade is that it has encouraged the notion that a growing child in the womb is only a clump of cells to be disposed off easily and as a matter of right by the mother.

Reducing abortions in the third trimester is only about preventing the killing of viable fetuses, that is unborn babies who could survive outside the womb of the mother and hence has a right to being treated as independent persons. It is only a legal perspective of personhood that is being endowed on the baby. Scientifically a human embryo/fetus is worthy of human rights from the time of conception.

As to fertilization vs conception:

Not every fertilized ovum implants itself in the wall of the uterus of its mother to proceed to develop into a baby. It takes about seven days for the fertilized ovum to implant itself, when it does. One can say that the mother "conceives" only when her uterus permits the fertilized ovum to implant itself to proceed with the growth of the baby. The real mother-baby connection is made at that stage.

One can say that there is a scientific window of about seven days until implantation of the fertilized ovum in the uterus.

Since pregnancy is suspected and confirmed only after that window of time has passed, abortion remains abortion at any time after implantation.

That scientific window provides room for implantation prevention contraception and for stem cell research.

Folks,

As to Fr. Reese's apparent acceptance of a different standard for political conduct by Evangelicals than by Catholics: that is a stupid position to take. Fact is: if the Establishment Clause means anything it means that Catholics are to be judged by the same standard as any other church. So: sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If Protestants can organize such a forum, Catholics can as well.

The Catholic Church leadership needs to rethink their old view that they must not have any formal involvement in Politics because everybody else takes a different standard. Fr. Reese may think that Jewish Congregations are reading the First Amendment as broadly as the Catholic Church does, but that is only because he missed the appearances Hillary and Barack made at Jewish congregations political fora.

Thank you for posting Catholic views Fr Reese. Please post more often so that On Faith Forum bloggers may have the opportunity to read theologically based non-partisan Catholic views.

"Catholic American" reads more like the personal opinions of the panelist.

The most serious problem in America today in addition to its failing morals is the murdering of the weakest and most vulnerable, the babies killed by abortion. To compare these crimes to capital punishment is ridiculous. The criminal facing execution has by his own hand committed an atrocity. The unborn baby is totally innocent.

Father you had me until: "...will he support social programs that reduce the number of abortions..."

With all due respect, social programs often touted to reduce the number of abortions tend to involve the distribution of large amounts of contraception, which is also unacceptable. On the other hand, programs which teach abstinence came about largely because of a member of the same party as McCain; granted it's not as good as chastity education, but it's better than handing out condoms.

In the same vein, the preferential option for the poor thing makes sense, but the Obamessiah is from the party that believes government should be the agent of forcible charity...and forcible charity isn't charity at all. Using the power of government to redistribute wealth as it sees fit at the point of a gun is not the charity we are called to in the Church. Giving of our own free choice is.

Statistically, people who identify themselves as republicans do a whole lot more charitable giving than people who identify themselves as democrats, which is interesting considering which party considers itself to be the most charitable.

The weirdness of Catholicism :

In public they preach against abortion but in reality they will vote for the guy who allows abortion. Latinos who are mostly catholic are voting for Obama.

What a CRAZY RELIGION. This is the religion of the hypocrites -- the Vatican is THE SEAT OF SATAN.

They preach that they help the poor but Catholic countries remain one of the poorest. Why? ITS ALL HYPOCRICY. It's all talk and NO WALK - a true devil's trait.

Thomas J. Reese wrote "As a Catholic priest I found the Civic Forum at Saddleback Church a bit weird."

That's NOT SURPRISING. Atheist Susan Jacoby found it weird also. All the weird people find it weird. What they don't know is that their weird belief made them weird. Catholicism at its core is a WEIRD RELIGION.

Turning biscuits into the flesh of God and sprinkle water to make objects or people holy ? Look who's talking?

I Hope that that unintentional anonymous post I just accidentally filed is easily recognizable as mine by style and substance.

"Judy-in-TX wrote: Our Catholic bishops are wrestling with coming to grips with all this scandal implies, just as other faith communities are being forced to do the same by trouble in their own ranks."

And those Bishops labor under two serious handicaps. They are compelled to believe that Priests who do misbehave can repent and amend their behavior, and they must work under the teaching of the Church that we must forgive and help the sinner bring change into his life. Much as those Bishops might feel inclined to condemn and banish, it isn't in their office to do so unless there is NO other way.

Confession, the Sacrament, involves all of this.

"Mick: Simple in case Catholics or Jews or Muslim forget, the Unites States of America is still a Protestant country and evangelicals are still a very important "special interest group" to be appealed to."

Well, Protestants as a group is so broad that it could almost mean voters. Still, as a statistical block, they are about as numerous as Catholics, especially if you use the original meaning that contains Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists (I think) but not Anglicans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians (I think, can't remember if they are Anglican Heretics or Heretical Anglicans). Protestants probably DON'T include descendants of the Anabaptists, so most Baptists, Mennonites, Amishmen, Dunkards maybe don't count. Evangelicals is a subset of Holiness Churches, something of a inbred and interbred Anabaptist/Protestant collective, with many unusual and non Christian inclusions in their teaching, like Rapture, and "accepting Jesus as ones Personal Savior.)

Evangelicals/Fundamentalists are certainly outnumbered by Catholics, so it ISN'T YOUR country. If the religion of the majority of the Founding Fathers is by majority participation, it is a MASONIC/DEIST country.

So forget the IT IS STILL A PROTESTANT COUNTRY bull. It is a secular country because as a Secular Country it can find room for the whole shebeen. Evangelicals are a somewhat coherent 20% of the voting public, and when they permit themselves to be an easily manipulated block they become the block of interest of any party that is cynical enough to manipulate them. Since before Reagen, that has been the republican Party, which discovered that it can go to your pulpits and tell you that it is one with you, and you won't actually ask them to prove it. Obama is a far more fundamentalist Christian than McCain, right down to a much more intense familiarity with Scripture, but John will proclaim all the Buzz Words and expect you to swallow his pabulum whole, whereas Barack will speak to you in a language you claim to understand, give you course after course in the Banquet of Christian Scripture and Tradition, and you won't even taste, let alone swallow and digest.

Then again Evangelicals have never been known for their open minds.

Obama won, not because he won over many of his audience, but because he demonstrated quite convincingly that he is far more of a Christian than McCain, thus refuting those who claim he is Muslim, and because he gave anyone who still has an open mind much to consider. McCain gave his friendly audience simple stories for the simple minded. His audience was not insulted. They therefore do not deserve to take insult.

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FIFI: I was referring to Acquinas and the church fathers of old. Mother Theresa is a marvelous saint, but not exactly reputed as a theologian.

and you missed my point altogether. suppose we agree it begins at conception, or that it's reprehensible regardless of when it begins.

Do we sentence abortion as capital murder, manslaughter, misdemeanor child abuse, or what? until you answer that question nothing you say matters at all.

the saints had NO problem figuring out when life began. CONCEPTION. Period. Blessed Mother Teresa (basically a saint) made that clear.

Obama gave the sound answers from a biblical point of view, McCain gave us sound bites that are in fact on the wrong side of the Bible.

"We are the best at helping our brothers" sounds a lot like the Pharisee who prayed "Thank you Lord that I am not like them." "We have failed to help the least of them" sounds more like "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner."

We defeat evil? Only God has the power to defeat evil if it is His will to do so for those who confront it in His name (as Obama correctly recognized our role).

Life begins at conception? (that's not only above Obama's pay grade, it's above Warren's - the saints were unable to resolve the question). McCain thinks he's God. At least Obama only thinks he's president.

And it wasn't as responsive to the question as Obama's response was. Defining the beginning of life won't do a thing to end abortion. The question is whether we believe that a woman who has one should be sentenced for murder. If not, then it's legal. (There is no such thing as a law that has no penalty). Does anything less make sense? 90 days for a misdemeanor? if it's a felony at all, our daughters will be deprived of their civil rights and unable to get jobs for the rest of their lives.

I would like a politician to say that it hardly matters when life begins, because it is morally reprehensible to terminate a pregnancy at any stage (whether the soul has arrived, or is about to arrive hardly matters), and that there is only one goal, to make it absolutely unnecessary for any woman to ever consider abortion to be the better choice. That requires pastors who do not judge, parishioners who do not shun, parents who do not disown, friends who do not ridicule, and a society that makes adoption or keeping the child feasible.

If we succeed in that, then in fact punishing a woman who has an abortion anyway is more defensible than it is now. But not until.

An abortion is the failure of all of the above, not the absence of strict constructionists on the Supreme Court.

I think the pro life crowd should shut up about the moment of conception and the Supreme Court, and get off their butts and do something to stop abortion.

As a child, I can still hear our pastor, Father Prendergast, explaining to us that the U.S. amendment regarding separation of church and state protected us from discrimination, so that we could practice our Catholic faith in peace.
He taught us it protected all religious worshippers, whether Catholic, Protestant, Hebrew, Hindu, Buddhist or people who didn't espouse a faith, protecting our freedom to practice our religion.
That is why it is very important that the Church stay out of activities in the arena of politics.
As the political winds have blown full blast in America over the past years, I have watched this nation drift farther and farther away from this basic principle of our national heritage with great alarm.
The use of faith communities to espouse particular political movements corrupts both.
There is nothing wrong with the citizen voter who espouses a faith using that faith to enliven his interest in politics and legislation.
It's quite another to use religious gatherings in a partisan political manner, as was done at Saddleback Faith Forum.
It is also quite another to publically humiliate political candidates by barring them from religious services, as was done in the last two elections by a few of our Catholic hierarchy.
These developments are very distressing.
I believe the disintegration of this Constitutional principle will cause the very discrimination it seeks to alleviate.
What do you think, Father Reese?
==
BTW, Eggy:
The regional office of the Assemblies of God in our area paid out $5 million this past year to families for shunting one criminal youth minister from one church to another.
In another local case, an interfaith evangelical congregation was completely destroyed because the leaders were abusing children and ripping off the church's coffers and are under legal investigation, as we post today.
It happens in all religious communities, so just because the Catholics have been hit and hit hard by this scandal as it has been publically exposed to the light of day doesn't mean they should be discriminated against because of it.
Our Catholic bishops are wrestling with coming to grips with all this scandal implies, just as other faith communities are being forced to do the same by trouble in their own ranks.

I wonder what Bill Clinton and/or his wife would have considered their greatest moral failing? I suppose it would be hard to choose!

I believe this is a valid question for a number of reasons. First, it shows what a person values. I am sure that Obama has had "moral failings" since he left university; however, all he came up with was kid stuff. Surely he had not been celibate until he married; what about any midnight calls "Honey I'm pregnant" and the agony thereof? Could this be why he used the phrase that he would not want his (sexually active -- presumably with his blessings) daughters PUNISHED WITH A BABY? Do we want a man as our president who cannot think of a single thing he has done since he left university that he characterizes as a moral failing?

Second, a man who will admit (1) that he has suffered moral failings; (2) he recognizes that moral failing; and (3) he has repented, amended his life, and not done it again, is not a Bill Clinton who says "it depends on the meaning of IS" when asked "did you do it?" I would rather have a falliable man as President who admits he is subject to failings and knows how to deal with them, than a man who thinks everything he does can be 'lawyered' away.

Why is so bad to ask a presidential candidate or anyone what their greatest moral failure is? Isn't a display of humility a valid qualification for evaluation when picking a president? I think so personally.
And,McCain did say he hoped skin (or adult) stem cell research would make the stem cell argument moot. He did not specifically say "embryonic" stem cells that night, even though it was inferred by his later comments and his previous support.

Simple in case Catholics or Jews or Muslim forget, the Unites States of America is still a Protestant country and evangicals are still a very important "special interest group" to be appealed to.

Thank you for your insights.

My opinion: agreeing to the format and the manner in which they got caught up in the momentum of the occasion displayed very selfish thinking. Both neglected to demonstrate to the audience that they want to be President of the USA not just of evangelicals. They were both focused on pleasing the audience and forgot the big picture.

Can we trust either to be President?

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