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reminds me of Bob Dylan's "With God On our Side"

reminds me of Bob Dylan's "With God On our Side"

Don't know if anyone's looking at this thread anymore, but I have to respond to this, too:

"In the best of all possible worlds tragic events must be possible for good events to occur. "

You know, as popular as that argument is, I've never thought it was very convincing. I don't have to beat my children so that they'll recognize love when it's shown them. They know I love them because I demonstrate that love through my actions, not because they have counter-examples of cruelty and hatred to compare with the love. Couldn't a God have designed a world that works like that?

Regards

A Hermit

"A Hermit - How is it you are so sure God's presence cannot be detected?"

Do you have a method by which this can be reliably accomplished? Please do share it. The world is waiting.

As for God intervening in human affairs, take it up with Concerned the Christian; I was responding to his claim that "God cannot intervene by definition of the human condition." He is telling us we should believe in a God who cannot do anything in this world and does not respond to prayer, so I'm asking him what faith in his god offers that atheistic humanism can't.

Regards

A Hermit

A Hermit - How is it you are so sure God's presence cannot be detected? Do you mean through technical instruments? If so, these detect whatever they are built to detect by the limited creatures that build them.

You question whether God can intervene in human affairs. Why not? Consider a computer. It is run by an operating system that manages a processor of input and output. Not every event in it necessarily occurs in a programmed manner, deterministically, for the system may be intervened upon, and in real time too.

In the best of all possible worlds tragic events must be possible for good events to occur. Gravity must exist if lovers are to kiss. Yet gravity also means that walking off a 15th floor is death. What should God have done, not include gravity in the program? Save us from every tragedy? Saving us from every possible tragedy would destroy learning and prevent us from confronting death, and therefore, God.

Ultimately, He saves us, if we cooperate.

Doesn't seem to be much room for a God in there, Concerned. I'm reminded of Flew's Parable of the Garden; you believe there is a gardener, but he can't be sen, his presence cannot be detected and his existence has no perceptible affect on the garden. How is such a gardener distinguishable from no gardener at all?

Regards

A Hermit

Terry et al,

I consider myself a "Crossanized" Christian with strong rearing in Catholicism. Deism would definitely be part the mix.

A Hermit,

The free will of murderers is muted by the free will and intelligence of the "good siders". We don't always win.

Storms and other natural disasters happen as part of Nature. They have no free will but are dictated by the physical laws of the universe. We try our best to analyze these laws and their consequences via monitoring their actions taking precautions as necessary. Our precautions don't always win.

I might add, by the way, that Concerned's and others' Deism is precisely why evolution and natural selection are perfectly compatible with some forms of religion and belief in God, just as evolution/NS are compatible with atheism or agnosticism. One does not have believe that God intervened to created all species, but can believe that He/She started the universe rolling and that evolutionary changes, natural law, etc., are just part of the way things work -- regardless of how it all began.

And, I find the assertion that evolutionary science must be Godless by definition to be limited to a subset of uneducated, Biblical literalist evangelicals with no imagination (or, for that matter, no trust in the miracle of existence).

Concerned,
I had not understood from your previous comments that you were a Deist. Fair enough, if so.

If I could offer an answer Hermit's questions (in addition to your own), I would say that the purpose of faith for a Deist is in believing that God created the universe, and allows events to transpire as they will, but that there will be an eternal afterlife. Thus, for a Deist, one's behavior on Earth might be judged, even if intervention does not occur. Hitler and the child murderer would have free will on Earth to kill, but will be Judged at death, etc.

For what it's worth, the Wikipedia definition of Deism:
"Deism is a religious philosophy and movement that became prominent in England, France, and the United States in the 17th and 18th centuries. Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and divine revelation prominent in organized religion, along with holy books and revealed religions that assert the existence of such things. Instead, Deists hold that religious beliefs must be founded on human reason and observed features of the natural world, and that these sources reveal the existence of one God or supreme being."

Concerned, please read my words very closely; I'm not talking about predestination, so posting quotes from Schillebeeckx on the subject of predestination is kind of pointless, isn't it?

So, if God cannot intervene inhuman affairs, what good is faith? Is God powerless to intervene, or does he care so little for his creation that he can't be bothered? Or is he unaware of suffering? If we accept your assertions here god (if such a thing exists) cannot simultaneously be omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent. At least one of those elements must be missing.

You also still haven;t really addressed the question of what part free will plays in the case of a sudden storm, or other natural disaster, or explained why the free will of a murderer is more important than the free will of his victim.

I realize these are difficult questions, so I should mention that "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. At least it would be an honest one...

Regards

A Hermit

A Hermit,

Read Father Schillebeeckx's words very closely.

From his book, Church: The Human Story of God,
Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover),

"Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

We are not puppets on some god or "prophets'" strings. We are thinking beings responsible for our actions. God cannot intervene by definition of the human condition.

And you are correct, prayer requests are fruitless. "Miracles" do not happen except through a mental desire or faith to be cured since miracles violate God’s gift of natural law. If God were involved in our daily lives, cures would not be needed. You cannot have it both ways.

Again, God cannot intervene by definition of the human condition.

No atheists in foxholes? No god at Auschwitz!

"Things happen."

That's it? That's your explanation? Sorry, Concerned, but neither you nor Schillenbeek actually address the question of Free Will here. Whose Free Will is involved when a freak storm occurs without warning and kills people? How is the murderer's Free Will a 'great gift" to the murdered child? What glorious Future does that child have?

I'm not talking about predestination here; if God is indeed all-knowing, all-powerful why would he not intervene to prevent such unnecessary, unwilled suffering? Why would he allow the murderer's free will to take precedence over the will of his victim?

Does God not hear prayers? Does he ignore them? Does he never intervene in the world? If not then why pray? If so, then why in some cases and not others? Do you have any answers beyond "things happen?" That's a good enough explanation for a natural world where we can't control all the variables but not, it seems to me, for an omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent deity.

Or are you arguing in favour of different kind of deity; one which is not powerful enough, not knowledgeable enough or doesn''t care enough to prevent unnecessary suffering?

Still Curious

A Hermit

Concerned,

You too! May we all make the best of our limited time on earth, help preserve and defend what miracles and beauty nature has provided us, and enjoy each day for the gift that it is. I'll also vote for doing our level best at keeping our fellow humans out of the very foxholes that first prompted this conversation.

Thanks for an interesting conversation, one and all.

Cheers,

Terry

Terry,

Things happen. Lightning strikes and sometimes even practicing all the necessary precautions, lightning still strikes and lives are lost. And just think, asteroids continue to lurk all around us. Enjoy the day !!!!

CTC,

Sorry, I don't buy it. As long as you are not emphasizing the free will issue in a religious context, we can agree that it is an important, but not all-important variable in our destinies.

But the fact that it is NOT wholly interdependent, and is blaming innocent victims for their fate, is illustrated in A Hermit's example of the murdered child. A child most certainly does NOT have "free will" in being murdered any more than it does in being horrifically killed in a tsunami.

Similarly, I think you're "pulling a Falwell" and far over-reaching to claim that even those adults living or vacationing near the beaches (or even a mile inland, in many cases) were consciously aware of any risk of death from an 80 foot tsunami. So if you claim otherwise, your God needs to hire a new communications director, and you gotta do much better than that to convince anyone of your free will/God interdependence argument. IMHO, it has a grain of merit if you are a theist -- but even then, only a grain.

Terry,

Our humankind gifts/attributes from God / Mother Nature are interdependent e.g. Reason tells us that we should not live or vacation in high risk areas unless said areas are properly monitored. In the case of the tsunami, even though the early warning technology is available, it was not in place. Those living or vacationing in these areas via their free will took a chance and lost. Ditto for those who live in areas that are below sea level without proper diking and damming (e.g. the Netherlands, New Orleans) and then refuse to leave even after being warned to leave.

But bottom line, it is all about the human condition and as per Steve Jobs ( http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2005/june15/jobs-061505.html) who almost died from pancreatic cancer, one of God's/Nature's great gifts/"inventions" is eventual death.

How we die is sometimes up to where and how we live but eventually we are all "reinvented".

Well said earlier, in turn, by both Person Unknown and The Hermit.

Following on their points, Concerned, re: your quibble about "natural" caused deaths of Christians vs. "unnatural": I like to go to dramatic examples that prove the rule. Among the ultimate, hit-you-over-the-head examples of how even "the future" may be a dubious "gift" from God was the staggering, random massacre-by-tsunami of 250,000 innocent souls, of ALL faiths and ages, the day after Xmas in 2004. As nature-caused as this catastrophe was, it was hardly conventionally "natural." If what you and your quoted Father Edward are saying about hope and the future applies more broadly and abstractly to humanity in the medium- to long-term, then fair enough. But it's difficult to preach that God gave each of those 1/4 million people or their surviving loved ones and countrymen "the gift of the future," let along that free will had anything to do with their tragic and often excruciating Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Toaist, animist, agnostic (etc.) deaths.

As I've noted to certain devoutly religious friends before, if they think through the implication of assuming a thoroughly interventionary God on earth -- pulling the proverbial puppet strings of fate. then they can only logically conclude that God is frequently one mean-spirited, unpredictable SOB. Far easier, it seems to me, to revere creation for what it is, God-made or not, and accept that "stuff happens" -- in part because of free will, sure, but also in part because you just happened to be vacationing (or living) at Christmas on a beautiful beach in Thailand or Sri Lanka at the absolute worst wrong time.

The world around us is a miracle in many ways, but it's far more realistic to assume that some people are randomly lucky, others randomly not, with some free will to make one's own luck under some circumstances (though NOT all). But to attribute that randomness to sins or virtue, or to believing in the "right" God/faith, as many religious zealots (the late demagogic Jerry Falwell, e.g.) do, just strikes me as vaguely immature, irrational and even tribalistic.

Believers of any faith should stick to attributing earthly behavior to notions of eternal salvation, as long as their earthly virtue doesn't impinge on my earthly virtue, and all should ditch the "God is on OUR side" schtick. The arrogance and simple erroneousness of that particularistic religious battle cry just gets people into trouble, justifying things like bigotry and torture, and rationalizing unnecessary, highly UNjust wars.

I was taught that the early Christians required converts to resign from the military and adopt more peaceful professions. In the same vein, I don't see how G-d could possibly take sides in a killing contest. That would be like PETA members betting on a cockfight. The fact that war happens means both sides are breaking their own commandments.

A Hermit,

I believe Father Edward Schillebeeckx's take on Future explains it quite well:

From his book, Church: The Human Story of God,
Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover),

"Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

Bottom line: One of God's greatest gifts to us is that of the Future.

Free Will is hardly the ultimate good. It is simply the nature of humankind that differentiates us from animals along with other "God given" (or Mother Nature given if you are an atheist) attributes like Thinking and Reasoning, attributes that result in the formation of police, fire and armed forces for protection from those whose free will has taken them to the "dark side".

Concerned the Christian; can you explain what Free Will has to do with someone dying in a sudden tornado, or an earthquake?

Or what about the case of murdered child; does God allow the murderer to commit his crime because the killer's Free Will is more important than the child's life? What about the victim's will? If Free Will is the ultimate good, such that even God cannot or will not interfere with it how can you justify having police, courts and a prison system?

Any answers?

Regards

A (curious) Hermit

Person Unknown,

I don't have a problem being critical of the power of prayer. The problem was Terry's commenting that millions of Christians being "killed". Had he used "millions of Christians dying", I would have agreed.

The gifts (God's or Nature's) of Free Will and Future basically vitiates any prayers of cure requests or winning a lottery or dying peacefully.

Rev Reese repats the old cliche.

Of course, there are plenty of atheists in foxholes - how about those "godless Commies" we fought in Vietnam and Korea, for example? Or, are you saying those wars were actually between believers on both sides, ie: just another religious war?

What we can be pretty sure of is that there is no god in foxholes.

Concerned:

Why diferentiate?? Prayers are prayers. Dying is dying. I would be interested in just how you figure your god chooses who lives and who dies.

Tell me you don't think that millions of Christians leave the mortal coil with prayers for help (either continued life or a release from the suffering) on their lips. Point is - it made absolutely no difference.

Terry,

Being killed and dying from natural causes are not the same. Please present statistics noting the differences in the various modes of each.

Terry:
Good post in response to Concerned the Christian.I have often wondered about how true believers resolve the conflict between prayer and reality. If the statement by BGONE:

...no battle was ever won that God wasn't on the winner's side or none lost where God had not forsaken them.

is taken as reflecting the results of God's intervention, why do the eventual winners of a war suffer any defeats in the process? I mean, the South kicked some serious Union butt in several battles but lost anyway. Did god change his/her mind along the way?

The fact is that it is a random universe out there and sometimes you are fortunate, and sometimes not. Hard to accept, but it beats the attempts to explain away contradictions with a feeble "we cannot know the mind of God".

Concerned the Christian queried:
"You noted: 'The religious zealots always seem to conveniently forget that millions of Christians are killed every year while fervently praying to their presumtive God to spare their lives. '

Millions of Christians being killed every year??????????????????"

Answer: Millions of devout Christians, including innocent children around the world die from natural causes, violent crime, famine, disaster and war, while praying to be saved from their death and suffering. Some die horrific, gruesome deaths, and are not even spared such pain by their God. My point is, if a devout Christian -- e.g. a U.S. soldier in Iraq, or someone who's played by all the rules of their religion -- still dies horribly, what does that say about their God's intervention on their behalf.

Are they bad people? Or, more likely, they were (hopefully) good people who just had bad things happen to them, just like anyone else from any other religious or non-religious background. Thus the point of others and myself that it's unprovable that any religions' God(s) regularly intervene on the behalf of "true believers," and that to claim that fear of death makes believers out of all of us (the "fox hole" analogy) is just weak and kind of pathetic as a way to try to prove the existence of such an interventionary God. Wanting something to exist doesn't mean it does, wouldn't you agree?

I would note that at least two of the founding fathers -- G. Washington and T. Jefferson -- were deists. Believed in God (probably), but not in an interventionary God on earth. They pretty much believed that humankind is responsible for making its own fate on earth. Similarly, they would have been horrified to learn that the U.S. president is claiming that God told him to invade Iraq.

Terry,

You noted: "The religious zealots always seem to conveniently forget that millions of Christians are killed every year while fervently praying to their presumtive God to spare their lives. "

Millions of Christians being killed every year??????????????????

End the Iraqi Occupation! NO WAR ON IRAN!!!

Who cares that Israel wants/needs us there.

AIPAC cares....so it doesnt matter what americans dying and paying for this war think.

The religious zealots always seem to conveniently forget that millions of Christians are killed every year while fervently praying to their presumtive God to spare their lives. By their logic, only atheists should be smitten by their Lord, or if the faithful are taken, it's "God's plan." But the fact is, no one can scientifically/statistically demonstrate a preference by ANY diety for believers vs. doubters. So, please, get off your high horses and at least have enough faith in your own faith (including whatever postmortem salvation you espouse) to not to have to trot out demonstrably untrue statements about earthly preferential treatment. It's just lame, and only undermines your religion. And on another note, I have to say that Dubya's evil "God told me to go to war in Iraq" asininity have done more to undermine Christianity than any atheist or agnostic every could.

So...acute fear of death and a sense of total helplessness allegedly provides the greatest clarity and realization of truth?

Seriously?

Sounds more like the ideal context for drawing desperate and necessarily unexamined conclusions. More like a petty righteous jab at someone facing horror than a persuasive argument for the existence of a god.

Isn't this old "no atheists in foxholes" line more about trying to peg other people to your own beliefs when they are most vulnerable? Would Jesus show so little sympathy or respect.

AMEN Brother!!!

I get so sick of hearing national "religious" leaders like Fellwell (RIH*), Robertson, et al. praise this stupid Iraq war. Christianity is ABOUT PEACE, NOT WAR.

What's worse is that Bush has developed some kind of a Messiah complex, and he thinks he truly is doing the work of God. Reality shows that he's doing the work of that other deity -- the one down south who Falwell is currently hanging with.

I look forward to the day when a REAL Christian once again presides over the country. The guy in the Oval Office now is nothing more than a lying, evil fraud of a human being.

*BIH = Burn in H*LL. Burn, Baby Burn Herr Falwell!

Anonymous, you need to read more history. Here's a good link: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html#The%20First%20Crusade

By the way, the Muslims had nothing to do with the Thirty Years War which devastated central Europe in the 17th Century. That was an all Christian affair.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/population_30YW.htm

European colonialism, driven at least in part by Christian proselytizing, also cannot be blamed on the Muslims. The European incursions had devastating affects on the populations of Africa, North America and the South Pacific.

Not to make excuses for Muslim excesses, but let's not pretend they're the only bad actors out there.

Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers
http://www.maaf.info

Making such a ridiculous statement shows how out of touch Mr. Thomas is with reality.

Making such a discriminatory statement shows just how discriminatory Mr. Thomas is to those not of his own mindset..

I hate to say this but the instigators for religious warfare has always been started by Muslims. The crusades were started when the Moors attacked Spain a Christian nation. I believe Spain and Christdom had every right to defend against the invaders and the onslaught.

It is true Islam forces people, countries and nations to conversion. Look at Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, etc. People should have the right and freedom to believe in whatever they wish too. If Muslims stopped there aggression in Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Lebanon, and the whole African Continent there would be peace in the world.

Until then we have to defend our freedoms, society and our way of life which is liberty. In democratic societies Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindu’s, Atheists can all live together peacefully. In Muslim nations Christians, Hindus and Atheists are persecuted!

What are we going to do about this problem? I don’t know but as an American I love my people and our freedom and unfortunately we have to engage the enemy in battle. We can’t forget about 911. War was waged on our nation because we our infidels to the enemy… Don’t forget!!! Our soldiers are fighting an enemy that uses children and women to carry out there suicide bombings. That is the nature of the enemy! They used our own people to bring us to our knees on September 11th. We have to show our enemy that we are a righteous people and will not stand to be terrorized by thugs!

When our soldiers on the battle field they search out and destroy the enemies stronghold but when our enemy engages our troops they hide behind crowds of innocent people. These cowards need to be brought to justice and if you think our country is the problem in this world then you need to open your eyes! We have an enemy that hates us for being free.

I’m afraid that we might have already lost this war because Americans have lost there will! I hope I’m wrong.

A co-worker from a "wall banging" atheists family came to work one Monday morning after the family had vacationed at Lake Mead. He said that they were on the lake in a small row boat when weather condition suddenly came up.

"I won't bore you with the details" he said. "They began calling upon dieties..." I suppose they must have come through for them since he was there and none the worse for wear.

Gods are unreliable shields against bullets and other hazards commonly found on the battle field. However, no battle was ever won that God wasn't on the winner's side or none lost where God had not forsaken them.

Devil welcomes all the fallen into his kingdom of course, both sides.

Mr. Reese, are you just ignorant or are you also a liar?

http://blaneconklin.blogspot.com/2007/02/god-impertinent-part-2.html

1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Why? Because they were born Muslims and don't know any better. Lose their faith because of war? Of course not, war is part of their "koranic" faith. "Death to unbelievers" being their battle cry!!!!!!

Reese says'" Pray for peace."
but we are the warmongers.
Why can't we just CHOOSE PEACE?

Praying is thumb-twidiling.
If war is unjust, especially wars WE START,
then lets hear a CALL FOR PEACE.

As others have mentioned, spiritual leaders should
LEAD in denouncing this war.

If you don't, then you are a part of the evil.
And your morals are FAR BELOW our fellow atheists who DO call for peace.

Reese says'" Pray for peace."
ut we are the warmongers.
Why can't we just CHOOSE PEACE?

Praying is thumb-twidiling.
If war is unjust, especially wars WE START,
then lets hear a CALL FOR PEACE.

As others have mentioned, spiritual leaders should
LEAD in denouncing this war.

If you don't, then you are a part of the evil.
And your morals are FAR BELOW our fellow atheists who DO call for peace.

how nice a sermon.

Has nothing to do with reality, of course, but it's a nice sermon.

Reminds me of the two Irish ladies discussing a young priest's sermon on marriage.

Ah, wasn't father's sermon wonderful, said one.

Ah, tis. And I wish that I knew as little about marriage as he does. replied the other.

Concerned: You sound like a passenger at a party in the Titanic. Sober up.

Father Reese: You write: "That means that we are all brothers and sisters, even those we are trying to kill." Does that mean you believe in Aquinas' theory of justifications for a just war?
If so, do you believe that a morally justified, yet less powerful nation (in the 21st century), has the right to use weapons as mighty as its (morally wrong) enemy's (e.g. nukes)? If not, can a less powerful nation that is morally correct ever defend itself against a more powerful yet morally incorrect enemy? If not, does just war theory condemn less powerful nations to defeat a priori? If so, can war ever be justified?

A Hermit aka "Goreite",

The reality of it all: If your "peacenickers" were in charge, we would all be yelling God/Mohammed the Hallucinator are Great in a "freedomless" world.

My Faith in Reality remains strong. God bless the USA for keeping it that way.

Concerned The Christian, this is the third comment thread you've posted your silly list in. I replied in Jacoby's thread. Bottom line, you're faith is misplaced...

Ahem....

http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/

When I first heard a pastor on television
saying in a challenging way to his audience
that there were no atheists in foxholes
I was a little shocked,because he was saying,
in effect, that fear had made him a believer.
I guess some believers think they can use these
pathetic scare tactics on atheists and have them
rushing to Jesus,just like they did,to cope with
the fear of death.
I mean really......

Getting back to reality and the specifics!!

How goes the War on Terror? (as noted previously but worth repeating)

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran (a member of the Axis of Evil) has been contained. (besides fighting the civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become civil.

4. North Korea ( another member of the Axis of Evil) is still uncivil but is contained.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace. (Thanks to the Patriot Act that stopped the foreign funding of the IRA).

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls (analogous to the two Czech republics). Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace.

8. And the stock markets and economies around the globe continue to show good growth and opportunity for the common stock holders thanks to the free flow of energy supplies.

So George and his guys and gals have not been perfect but there are some major accomplishments.

Bill Clinton and his crew definitely had their accomplishments but were not "pretty wingie talking thingies" either.

Conclusion: My Faith in Realism and the USA continues strong.

There is No God, War Tells Us

The phenomenon of SOME people turning to God in times of helplessness and chaos

is further evidence that God is Man Made,
a Wish Fulfilment that weak humans (and we are all weak) fall back on in their child-like regression during these times of stress.

Far better to develop a mature, healthy approach to, and understanding of, Death, such as the Buddhists often achieve (without supernatural mumbo jumbo)

or that Pulitzer winner E Becker outlined in The Denial of Death.

What kind of a God inspires his people to senselessly kill each other? What kind of God tells the Israelites to commit genocide right after the admonition "thou shalt not kill?"

The answer: a Man Made fantasy.