You Cannot Force People to Believe

Fish (Fly-replete, in depth of June,
Dawdling away their wat'ry noon)
Ponder deep wisdom, dark or clear,
Each secret fishy hope or fear.

Fish say, they have their Stream and Pond;
But is there anything Beyond?
This life cannot be All, they swear,
For how unpleasant, if it were!

One may not doubt that, somehow Good
Shall come of Water and of Mud;
And, sure, the reverent eye must see
A Purpose in Liquidity.

We darkly know by Faith we cry,
The future is not wholly dry.
Mud unto mud! - Death eddies near--
Not here the appointed End, not here!

But somewhere, beyond Space and Time,
Is wetter water, slimier slime!
And there (they trust) there swimmest One,
Who swam ere rivers were begun,

Immense, of fishy form and mind,
Squamous, omnipotent, and kind;
And under that Almighty Fin,
The littlest fish may enter in.

Oh! never fly conceals a hook,
Fish say,in the Eternal Brook,
But more than mundane weeds are there,
And mud, celestially fair;

Fat caterpllars drift around,
And Paradisal grubs are found;
Unfading moths, immortal flies,
And the worm that never dies.

And in that Heaven of all their wish,
There shall be no more land, say fish.

"Heaven" by Rupert Brooke. 1887-1915.

COLINNICHOLAS

You wrote, "When you are able to offer proof of your insane claims to have met the Creator Of The Universe, the world will be agog with interest."

I have already said that I am not going to offer any "proof" but that God will in His Time and as far as "agog with interest", the reaction may be, shall we say, somewhat different.

You also wrote, "It is much more reasonable and sensible to assume that you are deluded to the point of psychosis - than to believe that there actually is a god."

As I have said, this is merely your opinion and I imagine you are not the only one with this opinion. Some of the religious leaders of Jesus's day thought that He was absolutely out of His Mind so I suppose this puts me in pretty good company.

You also wrote, "But gods ARE uncommon. Nobody has ever seen one. Except you."

I did not say that I saw God, I said that I met God. There have been others that reportedly have saw/met God so the "Except you" does not apply.

There have been many people that have had experiences that you have not had and that I have not had, that doesn't mean that at least some of them are not genuine experiences.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, the dawning of the seventh day shall arrive in God's Time.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TBaum;

Thomas, there are no gods and never were.

No Apollo, No Aphrodite, No Baahl, No Venus, No gods at all. They were all made up mainly because of fear of death. It's death that scares the bejeesus out of folks, and makes them desperate enough to believe anything that reduces the fear. Call it reality management if you will, like alcohol or marijuana. It makes a guy feel better inside.

When you are able to offer proof of your insane claims to have met the Creator Of The Universe, the world will be agog with interest. Because not only is there no proof available - there's not even a tiny scrap of evidence. Because there is no Creator Of The Universe.

It is much more reasonable and sensible to assume that you are deluded to the point of psychosis - than to believe that there actually is a god. Folks have delusions all the time. It is not uncommon. But gods ARE uncommon. Nobody has ever seen one. Except you.

Take care. Go figure.

COLINNICHOLAS

You have a point that there are many that call themselves "whatever" for lots of different reasons. By "whatever", I mean fill in the blank, (Christian, Mulim, Hindu, Atheist, Buddhist...), this doesn't necessarily mean that they believe or don't believe, it just might be some kind of "social" thing for them.

Some people grow up tho and contrary to what Darwin seems to postulate, some actually think, question, doubt and wonder about some of the things that they were exposed to in the formative years, so to speak.

I have said this many times before, I am not sure if it has been on here tho, I firmly believe that God looks upon an honest doubt much more highly than some kind of ho-hum, I believe.

Actually, I not only believe this but it is written about in the bible when it speaks of Jesus VOMITING out the fence sitters, so to speak.

There are those that do not believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate, which He Is, that put a smile in God's Heart, so to speak, than some who believe that Jesus Is Who He Is. As I have said many times: God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

If God was even remotely like what some think that He is, there is no way I could see anyone, with a drop of decency flowing thru their veins, wanting to have anything to do with him, unless they were terrified of Him.

After meeting God, I wondered about the phrase, "Fear of the Lord", and I looked it up and it's meaning is "reverence and awe", not being afraid as, sorry to say, some seem to think and pound into others.

Sometimes it is amazing if one listens what one hears, did you know that "obedience and listen" come from the same root?

It appears that there are many that only care about themself and maybe their immediate family going to the "good place", so to speak, mightly "Christian" of them, don't you think?

Whether or not one believes that Jesus is God-Incarnate or even believes that He even existed, what is written about Him and what He taught is beyond "outrageous" if He were merely only a human being.

God is Love, a Being of Pure Love, it is that simple, if Love shines thru a person then God is shining thru that person, if Love is not shining thru a person then God is not shining thru that person, no matter what "label" one applies to oneself.

If one calls themself "Christian" then I recommend that they at least attempt to try and be one.

As I have said, God wins Total Victory, a tie is unacceptable, satan is a loser.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hi Thomas Baum;

Thomas, I meant every word of the post you refer to, and thanks for giving me an opportunity to expound on it a little further.

Way I see it we are the products of our cultural environments. You don't find too many Mormons raising Muslim children, or vice-versa. Think about that. It is a banal observation but it says everything.

If I had been adopted by a Mormon family at birth I would certainly be a Mormon. If I had been born or adopted into a Muslim family, I would certainly be a Muslim today. Yes, perhaps even a terrorist. If I had been raised into an Irish Catholic family I may have grown up to become a priest, who knows?

By the way - I hate to admit all that. I really do.

I would much prefer to think that I am an atheist because I'm too much a realist, or too smart to be religious. But that's not it at all. I'm just like (almost) everybody else - a product of my early environment.

Darwin had this to say on the influence of the early years on what we later believe ;

“It is worthy of remark that a belief constantly inculcated during the early years of life, while the brain is impressible, appears to acquire almost the nature of an instinct; and the very essence of an instinct is that it is followed independently of reason.”

Charles Darwin; “The Descent of Man.”

"Independently of reason" Thomas. Even when it makes no sense a child can be made to believe an idea to the point of it becoming instinctively 'true'. And that goes for you and me and most everyone else.

Ah. Sorry about the flippant test, but this place is getting really adware-infested and has had login problems which some flatter themselves to presume 'censorship' about.

But, I'm still logged in, so on this:

"The prospect of a nuclear state, Pakistan, ruled by Taliban extremists is truly scary."

I wonder, Monsignior, if you have any idea how *not* scared I am of that, after growing up among Catholics wanting me to endorse an apocalyptic *cowboy* actor based on some notion the imminent end of the world would go better if I only beat myself up about any tendency to not believe them and actually be pretty OK with not being a religious 'breeder?'

Actually, you Christians done pinned the scare meter a long while ago in your virtuous effort to oppose condoms and imaginary deviations from hemlines (even if too long, figure me that)

You lot tried to appropriate *total* nuclear annihilation to scare us away from reproting any misdeeds or infelicities of reason, shall we say, *decades* ago.

*Allied* with the Taliban on world conferences against anyone gettin g a clue on sex and STDs.

Now you wanna scare us with a nuke or two?

It's not scary. Not the 'end of the world. Just killing. Just horror and death and probably an easier way out than some have in mind for each other for 'righteous reasons.'

It's not 'frightening.'

It's *repulsive.*

*testing*

"You Cannot Force People to Believe"

When you understand also, 'Should Not,' Monsignior, you might be able to find something to offer.

COLINNICHOLAS

If one were to read your post of April 27, 2009 12:22 PM and take it to it's inevitable conclusion, one would have to say that no one, including you, has any way to actually think for themself.

According to your reasoning, written in your post, the reason that you are a non-believer is that you were taught that as a child and you are nothing but your childhood programming, is that what you think, because that is what you wrote.

By the way, one of the things that I have written before in looking back at my life, at least one of the reasons that I stopped going to church in my late teens and for, more or less, 30 years didn't go to church, is because it was becoming a religion to me, I might not have realized it at the time.

Also, even tho "Christianity", all varieties, might be a "religion" to quite a few, it is not a religion to me.

I imagine that you can think, contrary to what you wrote in your posting, but you can not think for me or anyone else.

Trying to force oneself on another is "ungodly" considering God gave us free will.

Do you honestly believe what you wrote in your post or are you that afraid that some other people do not subscribe whole-heartedly to your "beliefs"?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Mr Bolin;

You say "you cannot force people to believe."

Well, it all depends what you mean by force.

Big Catholics raise little Catholics, like Big Muslims raise little Muslims. If you get them young enough - you have them for life. When a child has no say in what religion he will be raised - surely that's a kind of force; choice is removed.

I am a nonbeliever because I was never force-fed religion as a child. If I had been raised as a Catholic I would be a Catholic today - just as if I had been raised in the madrassas of Pakistan I would be praying five times a day facing Mecca now and would believe Islam is the one true religion.
To me that is forced belief. A child has no resistance when absurd ideas are pumped into his head day after day until he's an adult.
You, for instance, did not choose the Catholic religion because it is better than the Muslim religion. You were raised to believe in Catholicism - so you believe.

If you had been raised as a Muslim, in a Muslim environment you would probably be praying five times a day facing Mecca, and teaching the truth of the Holy Koran.

So if we stop 'forcing' children to believe religious twaddle, we might have a saner, less superstitious world - one wonderful far-off day. Well, I can dream can't I?

HELP!!!!

i've been asking this question over and over (apologies to those who've seen it) on various threads, but still no answer:

are there verses you can quote from the koran (that were not later superseded by the ugly medina verses) and hadith that promote tolerance, fairness, equality, freedom of religion, self-determination etc...?
please, i would really like to know.

How very true it is, to say that you cannot force people to believe.

Yet that is what religions do, all of them, all the time. Yours is no exception.

Take your own Catholic religion specifically, and much of the Christian religion in general here in the US.

You believe abortion is murder, fine. That's your religious belief.

There are many people, at least half, who think it's a matter of choice, in fact they believe it's a matter of choice.

But you and your kind want to force your belief on everybody. You don't bother with just promoting your belief, you insist on legislating it.

Keeping our laws free of your religious beliefs is not denying you the right to have those beliefs. Keeping your gods out of our secular constitution does not deny you the right to believe in your gods, nor does it banish your gods from any public discourse.

If you don't understand the difference, then you really don't understand the Constitution very well, do you?