"Faithful Citizenship" -- What the Catholic Bishops Say

Atrocities go way back: e.g.

"David Slaughters Them
"And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes..." (I Chronicles 20:3)

Comment
Chapters 17-19 (17-18-19) tells us that David killed 22,000 Syrians and that Abishai killed 18,000 Edomites. No one expresses shame at such slaughters.

Here in 20:3, we have David, counted as a great leader of the Israelites, slaughtering captives after the cessation of hostilities. From what high moral ground should we admire this action?

Decapitate Them!
"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:3-4)

Comment
Those who worshipped other gods must die, and even more horribly, their heads displayed publicly. Either God never said anything so cruel, or we truly live in a cursed universe, ruled by a maniac Supreme Being.

Millions of people, today, switch their religions. If God had any interest in this ongoing process, there appears no evidence of this.

Gideon Slaughters
"And Gideon said, Therefore when the Lord hath delivered Zebah and Zalmunna into mine hand, then I will tear your flesh with the thorns of the wilderness and with briers" (Judges 8:7)

"Now Zebah and Zalmunna were Karkor, and their hosts with them, about fifteen thousand men, all that were left of all the hosts of the children of the east: for there fell an hundred and twenty thousand men that drew sword." (Judges 8:10)

A few details on the doin's of the FASCIST NAZI VATICAN AND CATHOLOFACISTS FROMback in the day. Read on to the posts below, and see their deescendants carried their agenda into the 1990s. In days, to come we take you right up to the present.
**********
Serbians, Jews, and the Roma were slaughtered in their villages after unspeakable tortures or burned alive in their churches. Those that were not murdered were expelled to Serbia proper after being despoiled of all their property or forcibly converted to the Roman Catholic faith by Franciscan and Roman Catholic clergy. Many were used as slave laborers. The remaining people were taken to concentration camps where the majority perished. [4]

http://www.concordatwatch.eu/showtopic.php?kb_header_id=17841

PART I: VATICAN STEALS FROM STARVING IVORY COAST

The now dead dictator of the wretchedly poor Ivory Coast (life expectancy for males is fifty, for females lower) raided the national treasury to build the largest Cathedral in the world in cahoots with the Vatican under John Paul III whose shenangins in this are documented at this site:

http://www.concordatwatch.eu/showtopic.php?kb_header_id=17841

Some details:

A concordat was made especially for “the basilica in the bush”. The church is modelled on the pope's cathedral, but was planned to top it. The concordat removes money from this desperately poor country for the upkeep of the huge and empty basilica.

This concordat protects the foundation that endows the largest church in the world - an African dictator’s answer to St. Peter's Basilica. (After some jostling, a compromise was reached : the top of St. Peter's in Rome is a bit higher, but Our Lady of Yamoussoukro has a tall cross on top of it, making it higher overall.)

It was a private arrangement made with the ailing President Félix Houphouët-Boigny who died the next year. This concordat

* needed no ratification (Article 16 )
* keeps the church finances beyond the reach of both criminal and civil law (Art. 7.1)
* ensures that its income and assets remain untaxed (Art. 9.1),
* keeps all its documents "inviolable"(Art. 8).

Holding the financial documents secret is a canny move, since the cathedral cost some £87 million ($150 million), which the dictator raided from the national treasury. A Vatican official is reported to have said, "The size and expense of the building in such a poor country make it a delicate matter”.[1] Hence the face-saving mention of amenities like a hospital “which may be freely associated with it” (Art. 2). No guarantees, of course. However, when blessing the completed cathedral (10 September 1990), the John Paul II also laid the foundation stone for the hospital. That allowed him to take the money and shove off all responsibility for “possible eventualities” like a hospital. This consecrated stone now lies alone in a nearby field. The hospital has not been built [2], as the money accepted by the Vatican is only for the cathedral. And his ceremonial laying of the stone “proves” that he had no idea whatsoever, that the hospital would never be built….

Part II

Despite the fact that the average Ivorian dies before the age of fifty [3], the Church is holding onto the money which was siphoned from the national treasury. Medical matters are not its responsibility -- but, of course, for spiritual emergencies, the cathedral is provided with its own helopad. [4]

St. Peter’s in Rome was under construction for over a century, but President Félix Houphouët-Boigny, managed to complete his cathedral in three years. It’s been suggested that the President who was eighty when the construction began, wanted an impressive setting for a grand state funeral. (It can hardly have been built for the 15 % of the population that is Catholic.) And indeed, the gigantic building is said to only have been filled twice: for its inauguration by John Paul II and then for the funeral of its builder three years later.

The President also appears to have been concerned with the Hereafter. When asked about the source of this money, he reportedly replied: "I did a deal with God, and you wouldn’t expect me to discuss God’s business in public, would you?" [5]

This concordat ensures that neither he nor the Vatican Bank will ever have to.

sparrow4:

feminazi- you dolt. Rush Limbaugh popularized it and claimed a friend of his coined it. Jeez- no wonder you can't make a cohesive argument and have to scream in slogans.

and we have a word for the likes of you too: Nazi. Plain. Simple. Descriptive. accurate.

November 4, 2008 1:22 AM

_____________________________________________

OK. I stand corrected. Thanks. It was Rush Limbaugh, NOT Mary Cunningham who coined the word "FemiNazi." FemiNazi Eugenics as I meant is the way only "wanted," perfectly fit babies are declared as having a right to live by pro-abortionists, rather abortion-as-a-constitutional-right activists. That is master race theory in action.

Now, you call those who are opposed to enactment of such a master theory, NAZIs? After exposing your ignorance about human embryology, now you on to expressing your ignorance about the German Nazi regime. Not surprised at all.

If we get four more years without health care, with more layoffs, with more bloodshed in Iraq--in short if we have another disastrous Republican administration, we'll all know where to look--right to the Vatican and all the Catholodroids of America, along with the right-wing Protestants, their partners in crime.

What rabbis, bishops, priests, and evangelicals say but don't:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's not chosen people.
www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. www. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

Conveniently for the Catholic clergey, "Faithful Citizenship" doe not include denouncing pre-emptive war, capital punishment or pedophile priests.

feminazi- you dolt. Rush Limbaugh popularized it and claimed a friend of his coined it. Jeez- no wonder you can't make a cohesive argument and have to scream in slogans.

and we have a word for the likes of you too: Nazi. Plain. Simple. Descriptive. accurate.

Mary Cunningham coined a new word that caught my attention because it sounds so very appropriate to those of us who are horrified about the hardened attitude of women towards abortion, women who consider it a constitutional right: "FemiNazi," and may I add an extension: "FEMINAZI EUGENICS."

Millions killed and counting...

Must be off...

oh honestly- stop the screaming and the bizarro approach. You never even answered my questions. I guess because you think if you screech loudly enough no one will remember to call you on it?

Here's my suggestion- you want to be anti-choice, go ahead. Have all the kids you want. save all the fertilized eggs you want. Kiss all the men who rape women and thank them for providing you with more babies and women you can bully and hold hostage to your extremist agenda. that's your life. Not mine.

Let me be clear- butt out of other people's lives.

SPARROW4:

ASK THE 1.2 MILLION CHILDREN KILLED IN THEIR MOTHER'S WOMB EVERY YEAR WHAT THEY THINK OF THEIR MOTHER'S "RESPONSIBLE CHOICE."

BUT OF COURSE THEY CAN'T ANSWER BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD.

SAVE ME THE SANCTIMONIOUS NONSENSE ABOUT WOMEN FEELING TERRIBLE. ONE ONLY HAS TO READ ALL THE PRO-ABORTIONIST POSTS ON THIS FORUM TO KNOW THAT IT IS A COMPLETE DEMONIC LIE. RIGHT TO KILL AND REMORSE DON'T GO WELL TOGETHER BECAUSE THE TERMS ARE CONTRADICTORY.

"f there is one thing I hate, it is a WILlFULLY ignorant, self righteous prig, who is brutal enough to consider it her right to kill the totally innocent, defenseless, unborn child."

Gosh- you mean there are people like that? Sorry- I don't. I know people who believe in womens' rights and responsible choice. (Now you're just hysterical. Calm down. Say om a few times.

"If I were you Sparrow, I wouldn't continue to write as above, and expose my ignorance. But of course, you do have the choice to continue."

Ooooohhhhh..... what a comeback! You just didn't refute me because you can't. But this is typical of the depth of thinking (NOT!) you've expressed all along. By the way, could you get a different catchphrase besides "expose your ignorance?" You're becoming repetitive and that just indicates you've got nothing to say.

I'm one of those women that can't conceive, prolifeactivist. At least not without medical intervention. I have Polycystic Ovary Syndrome. I am 100% pro-choice. I respect the right of every woman to choose to carry a child. Personally, I've had friends and relatives jump through the hoops to have a baby, and more power to them. My husband and I chose not to go that route.

Outlawing abortion will NOT make it go away. The only thing that it will accomplish is to have more women dead from illegal abortions, and more dead babies in dumpsters. And nobody wants that. Well, I'm sure that you don't want more dead babies in dumpsters. I'm pretty sure that you would view a woman that died of a botched abortion as God's punishment.

Time to move on...

I think Mary Cunningham made a very good satirical remark: the abortion industry is going to continue to be a flourishing industry needing ever more abortionists and marketeers of abortion as a right. (Aside: vomit, vomit, vomit!)

sparrow4:

I hear you, Paganplace. I'm sure prolifeactiivst59 has never undergone the anguish she prates about. If she did, she would be a much more compassionate human being. Hopefully.

Too many people speak without experience, without having to be in a position of having to make a choice, or having it made for them.

If there is one thing I hate, it's an ignorant, self-righteous prig

who thumps the bible and thinks she has learned all she needs to know from that.

November 3, 2008 8:04 PM

____________________________________________

If there is one thing I hate, it is a WILlFULLY ignorant, self righteous prig, who is brutal enough to consider it her right to kill the totally innocent, defenseless, unborn child.

sparrow4:

"Hippocrates lived 2400 years ago. He didn't believe in the abortion right either. He didn't want doctors to function as agents of death."
He also believed in slavery and that the earth was flat. Never heard of the Constitution (of course he was long dead by then). Would you like to live in the world of 2400 years ago?

How about sanitation? Like chamber pots and holes in the ground? Medicine- hey, leprosy, bubonic plague, yellow fever, polio, scarlet fever....should I go on?

And, from Jon Silviera-"an entire pharmacopoeia of drugs that naturally occur in plants and minerals was lost to Europeans when, in the Middle Ages, the Church deemed many of the women who practiced this kind of medicine to be witches. Some were executed, others simply ceased to practice. But much of the knowledge that had been passed on from mother to daughter for centuries ceased to exist and is only being rediscovered today.

Once the use of herbal and mineral cures was outlawed by the Church, European medical practices became more primitive than that of prehistoric man and the primitive tribes that live today in South America and Papua New Guinea. For in witch-hunting Europe, there was little done to care for the ill other than to make them comfortable and to pray over them. "

You'd better make up your mind- do you want to depend on a doctor from 2400 years ago for all your medical decisions, or would you like a little anesthesia to go with your trepanning?

November 3, 2008 9:52 AM

_______________________________________________

If I were you Sparrow, I wouldn't continue to write as above, and expose my ignorance. But of course, you do have the choice to continue.

I hear you, Paganplace. I'm sure prolifeactiivst59 has never undergone the anguish she prates about. If she did, she would be a much more compassionate human being. Hopefully.

Too many people speak without experience, without having to be in a position of having to make a choice, or having it made for them. If there is one thing I hate, it's an ignorant, self-righteous prig who thumps the bible and thinks she has learned all she needs to know from that.

"Eliminate the paranormal in all religions/cults and there will be a rapid convergence of what few beliefs are left. "

Save it for an election that cares, CCNL.

Not sure how 'life' can be the only issue - there were 10 commandments after all. Probably the bishops are just more 'cafeteria catholics'.

Once again:

Eliminate the paranormal in all religions/cults and there will be a rapid convergence of what few beliefs are left.

Popes, bishops, priests, imams, clerics, rabbis, evangelicals and witches have been living off the paranormal much too long. Time to "pink slip" all of them!!!!

And are we not all the sons and daughters of the historic Adam? Hmmm, where did all the hate come from then?? Hmmm, much comes from The two Worst Books Ever Written i.e. the koran and bible??? Absolutely!!!

Time for a rewrite of both. Once the paranormal entries are removed, what will be left?? Not Much!!!!!!

*taking a deep breath.* Yeah, Sparrow, tell me about it. Or tell the 'stepchild' of mine born of two queer folks of opposite sexes in an attempt to fit in, which child had to live through all the instability of her biological parents facing inconvenient realities and being 'punished' by the 'righteous' who set up the circumstance in the first place.

A wonderful child who got to wonder what inexplicable circumstance meant that a the promise of a stable and loving home got *broken* up cause one Mommy was too sick to stay with her and let her have a decent future.

'Pro-life' Christians tend to claim same-sex couples 'confuse' children, but there was no confusion about that. Their *confusion* is about how thanks to certain 'one issue' agendas, apparently love isn't enough, sometimes.

That's an awful lot of heartache just for some Christians to say it's 'simple.'

Maybe that's what they want their churches to be, ...absolutist and simple, whoever it hurts, or whatever it does to our future in the process, but our national government is supposed to be about *reality.*

You can still shriek about our damnation all you want, if that's what you want, rightie Christians, ...no one said you had to double-down on Republican failures to do it.

I hear you, Paganplace. I'm sure prolifeactiivst59 has never undergone the anguish she prates about. If she did, she would be a much more compassionate human being. Hopefully.

Too many people speak without experience, without having to be in a position of having to make a choice, or having it made for them. If there is one thing I hate, it's an ignorant, self-righteous prig who thumps the bible and thinks she has learned all she needs to know from that.

Of course there's the further irony of the Republicans the 'pro-life' people are told to vote for are electing folks who don't want to *look* at the bisphenols in the baby bottles so they can keep claiming being queer is a 'choice.'

Not that queer people haven't *always* existed among humans (and also most other mammals) ...but if they don't like us as much, and for some reason think the world's population isn't big enough yet, you'd think they'd get a little 'environmentalist' about some things that seem to actually make *more* of us, and to be counterproductive to the aims they cite when it comes to saying women must all and only bear children...

If you look at all the things 'one issue' 'Pro-life' people seem to demand of government, at whatever the cost to living people, you can see it's a *self-defeating cycle,* even by *their* standards, one propped up by some empty sense of 'righteousness' and harming real people, motherhood, and the future *itself* just for some sense of theological authority.

Recognizing fundamental rights and freedoms, caring for mothers and children, providing health care, support and opportunity to all, while cleaning up the mess we've made of our own living space for corporate profits, respecting people of all sexual orientations as equal citizens with fundamental rights to live as we are born (or even choose to be,) and *not* living as if we're somehow forced to vote against our own interests just because someone says there's 'only one way to be...'

These are things that the Democratic tickets are offering right now.

Claiming government can *stop* unwanted pregnancies and abortions by *religiously condemning them and making people ignorant about their own bodies and sexuality* is a *policy that has always, always, always failed.*

Pretending it doesn't means that 'One Issue' voters have simply made the reality of things so much worse.

"Pro-life"
""You haven't read about women who suffer terrible anguish when they have miscarriages, stillbirths, or are unable to conceive, have you?""

Sparrow4:

"No you jackass. I am one (and no- it wasn't an abortion)."

If I can add my own comparison to an MTV show. :)

Traumatizing women forced to abort fetuses by circumstances exacerbated by moralistic scorn of single pregnancy, cause they had an unwanted pregnancy thanks, too often, to Christian-based un-education... is *caused* by the 'pro-life' position of reducing women to breeding machines.

It also affects infertile women and those who have had miscarriages, given that same language is always saying a healthy baby is the only sign of that God's favor.

*I* can't have babies thanks to a trend at the time of women so traumatized by religion over a miscarriage being given *endocrine disruptors* known to produce birth defects, (And, ironically enough, gay lab animals)

So therefore, of course, I grow up with exotic endocrine problems, infertility, (Funny how that hurts even if you have no intention of bearing any kids) and a country full of people claiming that I *choose* to be queer, but should be forced to marry a man I can't have babies with in the name of someone else's God wanting me to ...accidentally have babies through the miracle of counterproductive abstinence-only 'education' , as if I were up to raising kids in a nuclear family with all my health issues in the first place.

Of course, just *being* queer means to them I'm unfit to adopt *their* unwanted kids, even if they want me to accept third-class citizenship and cervical cancer in order to pretend I'm not queer and make more unplanned babies.

The word 'jacka**' does come to mind.

What both candidates should have said but did not:

The following rules have evolved over 60,000 years of human history:

"Thou Shall not Kill"

"Thou Shall not Steal"

"Thou Shall not Bear False Witness"

"Thou Shall not Commit Adultery"

"Thou Shall not Covet Thy Neighbor's Wife/Husband"

Contemporary Violations/Violators Of Said Rules:

One million dead womb-babies/year x 35

Bill Clinton and other leadership adulterers

19 million cases of STDs/year

The Enron, Tyco, and Bernie Ebbers scandals

The 50% divorce rate

Pedophiliac religious and their protectors

"Hippocrates lived 2400 years ago. He didn't believe in the abortion right either. He didn't want doctors to function as agents of death."
He also believed in slavery and that the earth was flat. Never heard of the Constitution (of course he was long dead by then). Would you like to live in the world of 2400 years ago?

How about sanitation? Like chamber pots and holes in the ground? Medicine- hey, leprosy, bubonic plague, yellow fever, polio, scarlet fever....should I go on?

And, from Jon Silviera-"an entire pharmacopoeia of drugs that naturally occur in plants and minerals was lost to Europeans when, in the Middle Ages, the Church deemed many of the women who practiced this kind of medicine to be witches. Some were executed, others simply ceased to practice. But much of the knowledge that had been passed on from mother to daughter for centuries ceased to exist and is only being rediscovered today.

Once the use of herbal and mineral cures was outlawed by the Church, European medical practices became more primitive than that of prehistoric man and the primitive tribes that live today in South America and Papua New Guinea. For in witch-hunting Europe, there was little done to care for the ill other than to make them comfortable and to pray over them. "

You'd better make up your mind- do you want to depend on a doctor from 2400 years ago for all your medical decisions, or would you like a little anesthesia to go with your trepanning?

"You haven't read about women who suffer terrible anguish when they have miscarriages, stillbirths, or are unable to conceive, have you?"

No you jackass. I am one (and no- it wasn't an abortion).

As for ignorance, I can tell your level of scientific learning stopped just before you got your GED. Mine extends post-college degree. I don't get my embryology from propaganda- I got it from professors and scientists- not priests and pastors.

Sparrow4:

Sorry, I meant "You DISPLAYED your ignorance of human embryology..."

Maybe you should consider the fact I have taken the time to inform myself sufficiently before taking the Username "Pro-Life-Activist" to post here. Since I'm a woman, I feel embarrassed to read how women would consider killing their unborn children their right. You haven't read about women who suffer terrible anguish when they have miscarriages, stillbirths, or are unable to conceive, have you? They are women too. They are different kinds of women. Just normal women actually.

SPARROW4:

You displaced your ignorance of human embryology amply on the blog of Charles "Chuck" Colson.

No need to repeat the performance you know. You could take the time to read the book I recommended. The latest edition was published only this year. No 2000 year old science in it. Btw, Hippocrates lived 2400 years ago. He didn't believe in the abortion right either. He didn't want doctors to function as agents of death.

You are entitled to cling to your ignorance of course. Please consider my posts as being addressed to those who are open to learning real science, not touting the tired old pro-abortion propaganda.

Yes and they used to think a sperm was a little miniature man, the world was held up by turtles, and that the world was created in 6 days.

I respected Pope John Paul II but he is not the head of my religion. There is no biblical or biological foundation that says a fertilized egg (and in the Pope's case even an unfertilized egg) is a full fledged person.

Of course if you want to depend on 2000 years old medical knowledge, then start looking for a doctor who wears a toga and forget modern medicine. Can't have it both ways. Because its a fact that times have changed.

We know much more now than they did then, and you can play all the semantics you want, a zygote is not a child.

In Poland all Pro-Life groups band together to organize joint anti-abortion education and events, addition to their individual work.

A suggestion here:

http://www.40daysforlife.com/splash.cfm

Beware the red herring tactic of pro-abortionists, how they ever so sanctimoniously ignore the discussion on abortion and are passionately debating anti-war, anti-death penalty etc, as if it is part of the same topic and anti-abortionists are automatically pro-preemptive war and pro-death penalty.

Religious view:

A child is born in the mind of God before it is given a blueprint for its body in the unique combination of chromosomes in the zygote which develops at its genetically predetermined pace in the womb.

Christian buttress to anti-abortion:

Psalm 139

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and
wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the
earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

http://www.ibs.org/bible/verse/index.php?q=Psalm+139&niv=yes&submit=Lookup

Luke Chapter 1
(angel announces birth of child before conception)

http://www.ibs.org/bible/verse/index.php?q=luke+1&niv=yes&submit=Lookup

Making an anti-abortion case:

Human Embryology from the latest edition of a standard textbook (eg The Developing Human by Moore and Persaud )

Hippocratic Oath

Declaration of Geneva: Physician's Oath 1948

Abortion statistics before and after law in question

Comparison of abortion law vs social benefits vs abortion statistics in other countries, especially within West Europe vs ex-Communist ex-Soviet bloc, including Russia.

"....the issues of abortion and euthanasia are of singular importance in our country today," but these same "Christian" leaders look the other way when it comes to capital punishment and pre-emptive war just as they did with pedophile priests.

Christ's church, indeed.

Abortion statistics and other data (regularly updated) by Wm. Robert Johnston

last updated 29 October 2008

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/index.html

Compare:

Abortion statistics vs abortion laws vs social support in various countries, especially West Europe (eg. Ireland and Germany vs UK and Sweden) for positive impact of tougher laws on abortion rates.

Takman U.

PIP: In 1975, a new Abortion Act which allowed abortion on request went into effect in Sweden. From the mid-1960s until then, the number of induced abortions increased from 6000 (4/1000 women ages 15-44 years) to 30,500 (or 19/1000) in 1974. In 1975 and 1976, 20 abortions/1000 women of fertile age were performed while the corresponding figures in 1977 and 1978 were 19/1000 both years. During the last few years, women under age 30 have undergone abortions to a lesser extent, both absolutely and relatively, and there has been an increase in the number of abortions for women above this age. In 1971, less than 2% of the abortions were performed before the end of the 8th week of pregnancy and 6% after the 12th week. In 1978, the corresponding figures were 15% and 1% respectively. Between 1971 and 1978, the rate of the 2-step abortion fell from 28% to 4%. An increasing number of abortions are now performed as outpatient procedures. In 1971, the figure was 16% while in 1978 it has risen to 74%. (Authors modified)

1: Lakartidningen. 1980 Feb 13;77(7):526-30.

From the BBC on Pope John Paul II:

"If a person's right to life is violated at the moment in which he is first conceived in his mother's womb, an indirect blow is struck also at the whole of the moral order."

Every Human Life is Part of God's Loving Plan

A major theme of John Paul II's papacy was the sacredness of all human life. For John Paul II the importance of the human person was his way of expressing the timeless Christian faith. He reaffirmed that Catholics shouldn't use artificial birth control, and was unshakeable on the rights of the unborn and the disabled.

"Often the question is presented as a woman's right to free choice regarding the life already existing inside her, that she carries in her womb: the woman should have the right to choose between giving life or taking it away from the unborn child.

"Anyone can see that the alternative here is only apparent. It is not possible to speak of the right to choose when a clear moral evil is involved, when what is at stake is the commandment:

DO NOT KILL!"

Crossing the Threshold of Hope, 1994

And over and over again he used the language of the rights of the individual, the freedoms of the individual, the dignity due to every individual person to make the case against birth control, abortion, or euthanasia.

"I support with all my heart those who recognise and defend the law of God which governs human life. We must never forget that every person from the moment of conception to their last breath is a unique child of God and has a right to life.

"This right should be defended by the attentive care of the medical and nursing professions and by the protection of the law.

"Every human life is willed by our heavenly father and is a part of his loving plan."

--- John Paul II

A Greek pagan, Hippocrates, who lived in an abortion culture, was AHEAD of the Catholic Church in prohibiting abortion by FOUR HUNDRED YEARS.

Read the well known and oft quoted human embryology textbook:

The Developing Human by Moore and Persaud

Read The Hippocratic Oath written circa 400 B.C.E

(Translated by Francis Adams)

I SWEAR by Apollo the physician, and Aesculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation- to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others. I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous.

I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I WILL NOT GIVE TO A WOMAN A PESSARY TO PRODUCE ABORTION.

With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves. Whatever, in connection with my professional practice or not, in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times! But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot!

The Declaration of Geneva: Physician's Oath (based on the Hippocratic Oath)

Declaration of Geneva (1948). Adopted by the General Assembly of World Medical Association at Geneva Switzerland, September 1948.

The World Medical Association is an association of national medical associations. This oath seems to be a response to the atrocities committed by doctors in Nazi Germany. Notably, this oath requires the physician to "not use [his] medical knowledge contrary to the laws of humanity." This document was adopted by the World Medical Association only three months before the United Nations General Assembly adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) which provides for the security of the person.

Physician's Oath

At the time of being admitted as a member of the medical profession:

* I solemnly pledge myself to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;

* I will give to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their due;

* I will practice my profession with conscience and dignity; the health of my patient will be my first consideration;

* I will maintain by all the means in my power, the honor and the noble traditions of the medical profession; my colleagues will be my brothers;

* I will not permit considerations of religion, nationality, race, party politics or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient;

* I WILL MAINTAIN THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE FROM THE TIME OF CONCEPTION, EVEN UNDER THREAT, I WILL NOT USE MY MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE CONTRARY TO THE LAWS OF HUMANITY;

* I make these promises solemnly, freely and upon my honor.

"What did you expect, that they would come out favor of Roe V. Wade?"

Sadly, I confess that they performed as expected, endorsing McCain with nary an attempt at indirection. Why make a serious effort to be disingenuous when you know you'll never have to account for breaking the law?

And break it, they have, time and time again on this issue. Time to end tax exempt status, at least for the RCC and any other group that acts as they consistently act. Either we have laws or we don't. I'd much prefer we remove tax exemptions from all religious institutions, but, in the meantime, would appreciate its removal from any group that arrogantly dismisses the law that grants them the privilege.

The actual document provides plenty of "wiggle room" for those of us who feel that either (1) legal prohibition is not the best way to stop abortions, or (2) Republican policies have been ineffective in reducing the number of abortions.

This is a case of the bishops really not endorsing a candidate, as can be seen by the official reaction to the one bishop who did name McCain-Palin as the "correct" choice. (He has been censured.)

What did you expect, that they would come out favor of Roe V. Wade?

I dunno, Thomas. It's just that I'm partial to that whole separation of "church" and state thing.

"The Catholic bishops in the United States do not, of course, endorse particular political candidates. But they have outlined important principles about key issues for this election."

Now, now. "Thou shalt not lie," remember? Tsk, tsk, tsk, Thomas. Tsk.

Time to end tax exempt status for organized religions. Now.

" sertelt

"And with Barack Obama supporting unlimited abortions throughout pregnant, taxpayer funding of abortion and opposing a ban on partial-brith abortions and parental involvement, the choice is clear -- John McCain."

And pay never no mind to the fact that's a lie.

*The Catholic bishops in the United States do not, of course, endorse particular political candidates. *

They most certainly do endorse a political candidate. the Bishops' letter is a masterpiece of manipulation by guilt, couched in language that on the surface pays lip service to IRS laws, but is an obvious attempt to promote a political agenda and candidate while pussyfooting around the tax exemption laws.

Is that responsible leadership? Break the laws of this country as long as you get what you want? terrorists do that too.

And with Barack Obama supporting unlimited abortions throughout pregnant, taxpayer funding of abortion and opposing a ban on partial-brith abortions and parental involvement, the choice is clear -- John McCain.

More at http://www.lifenews.com/johnmccainprolife.html

The actual protections for 'born alive' fetuses already existed, the bill that the Religious Right likes to use to falsely claim Obama supports infanticide was simply a political ploy intended to get certain language into the law, (and be a nice convenient wedge issue for coming elections,) it wouldn't have actually added any more protections for such fetuses than already existed.

The GOP has been repeating various smears and distortions about Obama for a long while, now, and despite them having been roundly debunked all along, continues to count on them confusing enough people, apparently, even introducing new and patently unsubstantiated ones in the last few days before the election, so people won't have time to realize it's a scam.

It takes something more than 'one issue' voting (for candidates who support policies that actually increase the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions, no less, as implied) to have a government that supports motherhood without simply attempting to punish people who don't seem to obey the conservative churches.

People like to think it's a simpler issue than it is, ...generally by pretending the government actually has it in its power to 'make abortion go away' by embracing what's really an anti-sex and anti-education agenda, and forcing such services to dangerous black markets and back alleys.

That's as if the Republicans have any intention of *actually* outlawing abortion in the first place, ...not when that 'single issue' thing is the only thing that means a certain number of people will put up with their greed, incompetence, and corruption. They'd continue to erode the rights of women, of course, bit by bit, but if they actually outlawed it, they'd be depriving themselves of the only thing keeping them in power.

Not gonna happen anyway.

Attention to the affairs of the living, and how government *can* support the lives of mothers and children, making abortion safe, legal, and rare, is the way to go, here.

Bear in mind, too, that as anti-choice people used to constantly try and point out, is that Roe v Wade isn't just about abortion, it is the precedent that affirms citizens have a right to privacy, ...especially in an electronic age such as this, this is something maybe everyone oughtn't to be in such a hurry to throw away.

People who value life, *actual* life, not just claims of authority over it, should be voting Democrat, both in the Presidential and Congressional elections.

Voting Bush and religious panderers into office over this *twice* didn't get you what you wanted. Time for something different.

Something effective.

First- to correct something. Obama does not advocate unlimited abortion on demand. His vote against the live birth bill was aimed at getting it rewritten to protect women first. Take a look at his actual voting record instead of the McCain?palin hype.

It's also interesting that the Catholic Church has made the abortion issue so important that it now dominates the question of who Catholics should vote for. How does this narrow view of what constitutes the "sanctity of life" take precedence over the issues that are ruining the lives of those of us who are already "born."

The pro-lifers have also thrown up a smokescreen to mask the complexity of the issue. There is biological life and spiritual life- the Church confuses the two to create the contention that a human being is born at the moment of conception, when actually fertilization begins the process of cell division and growth. But to put a soul into an egg the moment the moment the sperm hits it? Don't think so.

It also seems the catholic Church would rather see the country torn apart over this issue, which accomplishes several things. !. Promotes the church's own religious agenda and 2. denies women their rights.

After all the constitutional right to own slaves was not overturned in a day, and the Catholic Church, as old as the hills, can continue to build the case against abortion persistently and with infinite patience.

It doesn't take rocket science to understand that the concept of personhood and privacy has been diabolically perverted to justify abortion on demand.

It is speculated that the German Constitutional Court used the very same arguments in Roe vs Wade to reach the OPPOSITE conclusion, declaring the right to abortion as UNCONSTITUTIONAL according to the article of the German Constitution that says "Die Wuerde des Menschen ist unantastbar." (The dignity of a human being is invoilable.)

Thank you for bringing the Catholic voice in a non-partisan way to this forum.

It cannot be denied that the Obama-Biden ticket speaks more to the social teachings of the Catholic Church although Senator Obama's unconditional support of the mission of Planned Parenthood to offer unlimited abortion on demand is a travesty. However his commitment to do all he can to reduce abortions must be taken as genuine and as positive, FOCA notwithstanding.

The best the Catholic Church can do at this stage is to ensure that every single Catholic is well informed about the implication of abortion, and the stand is grounded deeply not just in religious faith but also in the knowledge medical science has provided. If the Catholic Church manages to ensure that no Catholic resorts to abortion, it will have done a great deal. Education against abortion, offered to all, if based on medical science and human rights for the unborn, will find more open ears and hearts.

Overturning Roe vs Wade will of necessity have to wait another day, since an Obama-Biden ticket is not likely to appoint judges who are keen to overturn the law, in spite of there being a strong case for it. T