Humanity and Divinity Collide

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To the unbelievers. to those that "think" they're finding contradictory passages of the bible...this is for you:
2 Timothy 2:15 (Whole Chapter)
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The bible is so much more than words. There is so much history in the Word of God. There IS power in the WORD OF GOD. The words on the page is DEEPER that what you read on the surface. Obviously because you're not born again, you can't begin to understand. Check this out:
1 Corinthians 1:18 (Whole Chapter)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

This is why you find the word of God contradicting itself when it really does not. You just don't and cannot understand. One last note:

1 Corinthians 2:13 (Whole Chapter)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So you see....earthly wisdom cannot decipher nor understand the WORD OF GOD. I challenge you to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Allow him in your heart to save you.

As you can see the power of the Word of God, but there wasn't much I needed to put into my own words. The Word of God speaks for itself!

To the unbelievers. to those that "think" they're finding contradictory passages of the bible...this is for you:
2 Timothy 2:15 (Whole Chapter)
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The bible is so much more than words. There is so much history in the Word of God. There IS power in the WORD OF GOD. The words on the page is DEEPER that what you read on the surface. Obviously because you're not born again, you can't begin to understand. Check this out:
1 Corinthians 1:18 (Whole Chapter)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

This is why you find the word of God contradicting itself when it really does not. You just don't and cannot understand. One last note:

1 Corinthians 2:13 (Whole Chapter)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So you see....earthly wisdom cannot decipher nor understand the WORD OF GOD. I challenge you to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Allow him in your heart to save you.

As you can see the power of the Word of God, but there wasn't much I needed to put into my own words. The Word of God speaks for itself!

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It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

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Whew! No doubt the Buddhists are relieved to get the go-ahead from some mindless Christian.

Hi T.D Jakes and first lady my name is Amanda Amos I am from Stuttgart Arkansas and I am 20yrs old I have 3 children and 1 on the way i'm 4 months pregnant I have 2girls one of my daughters is 2 and the other is 3 and 1 boy he's 6 months old, but what I wanted to say is at one point I found myself on the streets having no where to go my dad past in 2004 and my mom is dating a married man, the man disliked me and decided to put me and my children out one day,but God is good and thanks to him a pastor by the name of David Wilson and his wife Lylie Wilson took me and my 3 children in and they've helped us tremendously God has blessed me so much because I am walking by faith and i've gave my life to him and I'm praying that he blesses me and my children with a vehicle and a home of our own I have my CNA license and I had a job at the nursing home out of tow but I couldn't take it because I don't have a vehicle but God has blessed me with a better job to to call me (Lennox Industries)here in town so I'm hoping I pass my test so I can get it It's more money and it's better for me cause i can just find a ride to work and back home but I thank God and I believe in him and I give all my worries and trouble to him and all things are possible through him and I believe he wouldn't brought me this far to turn around so this is my testimony and I just ask that yall pray for me and my family we are a member of the pastor and his wife church in Clarendon Arkansas T thanks for listening and God Bless 202 Truman St. Stuttgart Arkansas 72160

Hellow,
May you send me New Year greetings from Bishop T. D. Jakes.
Regards,
Peter.

To Douglas S. Taylor --

I figured you were clergy - You still have that round-about way of talking.

I wish you, or someone, would address some of my questions.

Meanwhile - it sounds like you've found the "God within you."

To E. Favorite;

You do ask many questions, but that should be the way anyone should be, and that is to ask questions. Challange answers is the second, no one should take faith based answers at face value. Religious pat answers and the like are shallow and obtuse.

Anyway, I did ask questions, challenged answers all through my experience as a follower of Christiandom, and as a successfull minister. As my studies in biblical and religious studies grew, so did my elevation or increase of challenging the theological "mumbo-jumbo" of the Christian Mythology.

I do not come to this site to berate, put down, or flame those who are "religious" I come to share my experience, least just a bit on the matter at hand, and that is, is Jesus the Son of God, and of course I answered that as best as I could without writing a book.

I will also say, that is, in my experience for those who "craft" the Christian Mythology will continue to perpetuate these myths in spite of facts and real historical accounts. Christiandom became a political powerhouse, a business powerhouse long before the advent of America. There is too much money, power, pride and greed to let Christiandom go the way of Greek, Roman, and other classical Mythologies, no not just yet...

I degress, and apologize. To answer your question regarding, "..when I discussed with others.." This was indeed a painful experience, for both parties, those I told and listen, and to me. Personally, to borrow a truth from Islam, the greatest Jehad wasn't fighting with others, but the battle within. ( I am not a Muslem no more as a Christan)

Yes, the hardest battle was waged within me, coming against the Christian traditions, teachings, theologies, and other so called truths to find out that I bought into the biggest story ever sold. Like I have said before in so many words between those lines, it was a painful but liberating walk out of the religous Canaan and breaking the shackles and bondages of the hypocracy of religion -- Man's attempt to reach for God.

To answer a possible next question if I may be so bold as to say, dare I say... It would be this, since the exodus from all former religious matters, I have returned to the simple-childlike views and thoughts about God when I was a child, and that is this...

I personally believe that God exisists, and the only desire God has for me in my heart, is a relationship with him. I believe God through his many mysteries, speaks to all of us in our hearts and through our actions of all walks of life, no matter of our belief systems, political views, and sexual orientation. I would also like to say that it takes a God to dredge through the hypocracies of mankind to lift one out of his or her own mire of these things I speak of.

I will only follow my tenants of my own heart, besides, this is my understanding that is where God chooses to reside and dwell in. For those of us who may not believe in God, I simply say, God does not give up on you, especially those religious ones =;)

To Ontheouter:

You say: "Another irony is that long after the "secret" of such mechanisms is wholly deciphered, we mostly tend to again allow ourselves to fall in the usual humdrum of life's tit-bits to seriously bother about doing something about it.Not that I profess to be of a radically different breed here! That habit applies to me as well, equally, if not a tad more than normal...

My question:

Are you clergy?

To Douglas S Taylor and E Favorite

I can't agree more to your observations especially to this:

divinity school experience is key to understanding how these myths and misperceptions are perpetuated as truth long after the truth has been known.

Another irony is that long after the "secret" of such mechanisms is wholly deciphered, we mostly tend to again allow ourselves to fall in the usual humdrum of life's tit-bits to seriously bother about doing something about it.Not that I profess to be of a radically different breed here! That habit applies to me as well, equally, if not a tad more than normal. However, I tend to think that why do we ever need to classify ourselves as to be 'belonging' to a set school of thought and ritual, as demanded by Christianity or Muslim faith, for instance? Why can't we just take the simple philosophy of trying to help out others around us, if we can, besides looking after our individual lives/families, without ever bothering to go by the attendant symbolisms that only go to identify ourselves in having made the decision one way or the other? We surely can back ourselves in leading a correct way of life if we just refrain from commenting upon others' need to choose a different path.

I ,for one,strongly believe that a whole lot of commercial/political interest groups, marauding as religious heads, have always been trying to meddle in this debate for their selfish aims, bypassing the need to distinguish between spirituality and religion. We indeed seek an answer to this basic question that where it all(life, universe etc) has come from and for what purpose, but keep confusing it with our physical need of survival while we are still alive. Mind needs this body to survive first and then obliged to answer its question: For what. Since survival takes precedence in this sequence, humanity needs to address this need first before it can adequately attempt to answer the question.
I hope it makes some sense.

Gerry, Maybe there is no answer. When all else fails relax. No answer is better than the wrong answer? Can the human mind accept no answer possible for the answer? Don't see many folks doing that. They'd rather worship the devil than no god at all. Interpretation 1501, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul but don't expect much for it. The big money goes to those who lead others to hell.

Religion is for mental materialists: They need materialistic and easily manageable mental crutches in order to withstand the inevitable insight that nature, starting at our own existence, is principally incomprehensible - with or without Darwin. (He, at least, was honest and surprisingly successful in his quest for knowledge, as compared to the creationist simpletons who hate anything resembling reason.) The ability to think, which includes doubt, should in reality be seen as the most valuable gift we have received from a "god". Honest atheists are the real spiritualists: They have retained their overwhelming feeling of awe and wonder toward the cosmos instead of cultivating desperate, illusionary stories which in reality prove nothing but their own helplessness.

Thus, some hopeless attempts at an explanation morph from crude symbolism to "eternal truth" - ridiculous and aggressively hostile to human dignity. But it is the mechanism that produces figures like Bush and similar bigots.

Gerry

Woof.

To the militant athists: You're missing the point, and you're aren't going to understand what the point is here.

To the heardheaded Christians who think so ill of Islam, consider reading "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. She has her own agenda, of course, but you might find some illumination from her writing.

To all: Merry Christmas!

It may just be me, but I find the divisive nature of these forums disheartening. Why so much mud slinging?

As a follower of Jesus, I am mostly embarrassed by the remarks left by "Christians" on this site. Such arrogance and rudeness. And yes, it is normally matched by those on the other side.

Whether or not we subscribe to the list of Christian doctrine or not... surely we can all appreciate and reflect some of the amazing teachings of Jesus, as recorded by scholars of his time.

That it is better to love others than yourself. That to give is better than to take. That forgiveness is better than anger, bitterness and rage. That we should love our neighbour (including on internet forums).

Christmas is certainly a great time to gather with family and exchange gifts. But for me it is also a time to ponder how I wish to live life in the coming year. The world's usual way of greed, rage and selfishness? Or a better way... the way that Jesus spoke of?

Argue all you like about the walking on water. No one can prove it or disprove it.

But we all know that Jesus message of love can be proven. We see it every day.

Money, money, money, money, money...,

The Christian church's main concern today seems to be persecuting gay people. Why bother with all this "was Jesus the son of God" debate, if your primary goal is to persecute gay people?

To Douglas S. Taylor:

You say, “In my studies of both biblical history and traditional history, there is nothing that shows, other than heavily edited scripture taken from pagan and other previous methologies that God was a man through his son, Jesus.”

This is what I have learned, as well, but on my own – not in Div school. What I wonder is how did your class mates respond to this information? Did you talk about it in class? After class? What were the conversations like? Maybe people just kept it to themselves? How did the professors present the material? Did they make a case for staying on despite the fact that so much of what you’re expected to preach you know is not based on fact?

It sounds like you left because of what you learned – but a lot of people stay on and become ministers. How do they deal with it?

This is a lot of questions, I know – and I have more. I think understanding this divinity school experience is key to understanding how these myths and misperceptions are perpetuated as truth long after the truth has been known.

Thank God for Pastor Jakes. His gifted oratory compells attention from the listener, and his Biblical knowledge make him one of the top ten preachers in the US.

Sorry, I meant to say in regards to Thomas Paine, the book I recommend on this subject would be, "Age of Reason."

A Thousand Pardons....

I used to be a devote Christian for a few years, I then began studying the bible in the various versions, attended seminars, then I went to bible school. After graduating, I furthered my studies until I earned a Doctrine of Divinity. During this course, I found early on that the bible is far from the word of God, more like an "inspired" word of God written by men, men with agendas, men with "aspirations." The new testament was edited, polished, and re-editied several times by 600 A.D. By this time, there were many "books", "scrolls", and stories removed from the new testament by "theologians" and heads of church. The only church was what we know as the Catholic church at that time. Oh by the way, there is no written history before that time that suggested that Yeshua, or the one called Jesus during the time from 3 B.C. to about 180 A.D. that claims that Jesus was born of a virgin birth, or claimed himself he was. No matter, Jesus, or Yeshua was a revelotionary and was indeed a "son of God" but so are a good many people. I mean to say, Jesus was not the procreation of the seed of God, no more than God was ever a man.

In my studies of both biblical history and traditional history, there is nothing that shows, other than heavily edited scripture taken from pagan and other previous methologies that God was a man through his son, Jesus. On a side note, people should study Christmas, and how it came to be -- Rome (the Roman Empire) had a popular god originating from the believes from, ironically, the mid east at the time, this new god, a very popular god was stealing "fanfar" from the growing sects of christians in the Roman Empire. Since there was no Birthday celebration or a known date, by the way again, this Jesus everyone speaks so highly of may have indeed been born around the end of march through the end of April of the current calendar.
Anyway, the sects of Christians deemed that all Christiandom should celebrate, ironically, the same day as this popular god. So this is how, historically speaking, "Christmas" came to be. This is not the first time Christiandom "borrowed" such pagan dates and practices. If one did their historical research, one would find that Christianity has indeed come from its earlier pagan foundations and practicies at the time. Even in today's practices of Christianity, especially Catholic traditions and practices echoes the former pagan practices and rituals. Of course, their is the business and corperate states of Christianity I will deter from, but odd is it, this very Jesus that everyone (those who are Christian), he in fact spoke so highly against of. He spoke against religious people, religious organizations, instead spoke about tolerance, understanding, love, and respect for everyone (else). I certainly believe that this spiritual (and not to be considered the same as religious), but spiritual person spoke of the betterment of mankind, like other great spiritual leaders and rebels did of that time, and of today. I believe that this Jesus exisited, not as a "Son of God" but as a "child of God" and spoke with a good heart in mind. I base my understandings upon actual Roman written accounts, and other written source of THAT time.
He certainly wasn't the glamorized seed of God, but was a good man, and with this, he was nothing more than a mortal, just like any of us.
I also know that God is not into "blood cults" or "blood sacrifices" especially with human life.
I would also like to recommend a book, a simple logical book written by Thomas Paine's "Common Sense."

I thank God for the measure of tolerance and understanding, and not to mention, guiding me out from the religious Canaan of Christianity and delivering me to a wounderment of enlightenment that he has shown unto me, and to a good many untold other souls out there.

When a person believes that the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross paid for your sins, and you experience the liberation of having your sins removed, then you know you are free. It's like being let out of jail. You know that you are living in a different state of being. That's why they call it being born again. It truly is like being born all over again. Everything becomes new. You have fellowship with God that you didn't have before. You can say that this is phony and can't be real, but it is real. I have been experiencing it for the last 25 years. I am thankful to God for my new life. What Bishop Jakes is saying is absolutely true. If you have any desire at all to be free of your sins and have fellowship with God, I would tune into Bishop Jakes with an open mind, and hear more of what he has to say.

Bishop,

I agree with many of the other commentators here that your exegesis of divine love and sacrifice is deep and wonderful. I wish though that modern christianity's exegeses of human love, faith, and sacrifice were equally deep and wonderful. Rather than overcoming ourselves through humiliation and sacrifice for those we consider most beneath us, today's interpretation of christian faith tells us to feel entitled to dine with the king of king's. This is precisely the opposite of what the logic of God's sacrifice, per your own account, teaches. Instead of a call for self-overcoming and likely fatal receptivity to those we trust least, today's christian "faith" acts as an excuse for not questioning, i.e., for complacency instead of sacrifice. Without equally deep and wonderful exegeses of appropriate human responses to God's sacrifice (rather than trite lists of fundamentalist, ethnocentric, misogynist, homophobic, etc. do-s and don't-s) today's christianity, like secular science, is anti-christian.

LOSTFORWORDS, please read these few verses from the Quran:

40. O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.

41. And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

42. And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).

43. And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).

44. Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?

45. Nay, seek ((Allah)'s) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,--

But my favourite one is:

48. Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).

My lostforwords brother, don't you ever believe that your sins is already paid for by Jesus (PBUH).

Brother lostforwords:

On the day of judgement, everyone will be asked what he or she did in life. You shouldn't worry much about what muslims do or in which status they're in. All you need to take care of is your own faith. Stop beating around the bush and point the finger to yourself. Challenge yourself, your faith, and the things that you take for granted in life. If your plan is to tell God that you chose your faith because others just "look bad", then you are in for a lot of trouble. If you plan on saying that you believed and actually circulated what the media and people in the church say about Islam, and that no one told you otherwise, well I am sure God will bring me as a witness (perhaps among many), and I will testify that I tried to open your eyes but you just won't listen.

Norrie:

Nope!

Paulus

I find religious pronouncements to be incredibly funny, you people believing in all these fairy tales. I also feel very sorry for you, thinking you have all the answers, that you're the only ones going to live after death, and all that crap. You have done a masterful job of deluding yourselves, and you do not deserve the many scientific advancements that have been brought to our world. You have been revealed for the idiots you are, and you are so absurd that the only response it to laugh uproariously.

Why should we take Jesus's word for it, Bishiop (sic) Jakes? For example: Jesus lies here at John 7:

8Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

10But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

Jesus is Christ? But if so, when? birth or baptism or resurrection? The NT writers don't agree:
Luke 2:11 born as Christ
Acts 10:37-38 became Christ at baptism
Acts 2:38 became Christ at resurrection

Paulus,

Wasn't it your namesake who was the Roman double-agent who hijacked the Jesus religion and turned it into "Christianity" to act as a fellow-traveller group in the service of the Roman State?

Well, again....I always try and find a litmus test for anything. So here goes.

Either the Son of Man is who he says he is, or he is not. Period.

So, the New Testament says (Matt: 18-19 -The New Intl. Version) "Again I tell you that if two of you on Earh agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in Heaven. For where two or three come together in my Name, there I am with them". So lets follow the instructions closely.

Get a friend, have her/him pray to the God of Israel along with you for something that both of you think is Godly and worthwhile. If it comes to pass, you are now a believer, the test has been passed. If it does not come to pass, you both have a right to be atheists, agnostics, Republicans, Pennsylvanians or anything else you want to be! Fair enough?

Tom

A con, short for confidence scam begins with confidence in a man. The religious con man is the minister, (Preachers, Priests, Rabbis, Ayatollahs). His flock has confidence in him. Confidence is faith. Their confidence comes from a single moment in history, Moses talking to a being that lives in the fire that burns but does not consume. Interpretation 1501 http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul tells us the devil was in the fire. Makes sense, hell is on fire.

The victims of the religion con have confidence in their ministers, they believe him, have faith that God was in the fire because he says it was God. They give their money to their con man because he tells them they are saved and will spend eternity with God for God loves a cheerful giver. They, the victims get nothing in return for their money, the way the confidence scam was designed to work.

If there was a supernatural being in the fire then it was the devil. If it was God then God is on fire. In either case those who give their money to ministers get nothing in return. The illegal con can be proved because it promises something here and now that's not there. The religion conned must die to find out if they have been conned or are actually buying a ticket to hell. Good luck both conner and connee. There is a God that is watching you.

Jesus Christ, peace be upon him Issa-ibn-Mariam -- Issa son of Mary for Muslims -- [p.b.u.h.]) was the son of Mary and the Son of Man. The Prophet Muhammad, p.b.u.h., insisted that there should be no image whatsoever of him lest the misguided worship him as a god or decalre him to be the son of god. These are historical facts.

Maybe faith adds a factual or spiritual dimension that we should be humble enough to admit that we cannot disprove, and therefore we may, at worst, be right to claim to be agnostic rather than atheists, the latter being an impossibly arrogant position.

However, it is worse to argue that, to nay intelligent person, a 'clash between humanity and divinity' makes any sense. The divine is in each human however much he might wish, in his blind arrogance, to extricate it from his soul.

As far as the mind or the intellect can conceive of god, this conception cannot be other than anthropomorphic, for, to paraphrase whay a wise man has said about the mind: "If the mind (or God) was simple enough to be understood, it (He) would be too simple to understand (His creation)".

To Reeking Havoc:

You say, “Ever wonder what made you and me worth the ultimate sacrifice, in the mind of someone you were always told was the embodiment of God Himself?

Was the ultimate sacrifice Jesus dying on the cross? While I’m sure it was very painful, it only lasted a few hours, after which he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven to live for eternity. 2000 years later, people are singing praises to his name.

I know a lot of innocent people who have had a lifetime of of pain and suffering, then die without fanfare.

Robert Frost was at a public meeting at Amherst College when a minister of religion asked him how religion had influenced his poetry. Frost responded:

"Mary had a little lamb.
His name was Jesus Christ.
God the Father was the ram
But Joseph took it nice."

This doesn't shed much light on who Jesus was, but it gives us an insight into Robert Frost, whose poetry, many believe, embodies "traditional American values."

This episode was recently reported in the Amherst College Alumni Magazine. It can be verified by googling Robert Frost + Amherst + the quotation above

Occasionally, contributors to these Faith Forums complain that this topic should not be the focus of a newspaper. I disagree. The Wash.Post wants to make it abundantly clear how foolish, arrogant and unimaginative we all are....and they have succeeded. Forums produce no light on our path....they create no flame to warm our chill self-centeredness. Forums such as this foster nothing but smugness on both sides of the issue and an understanding of human nature that is one dimensional, flat, dull and miserly no matter which point of view is espoused. I for one am sick to my stomach of this bickering especially when I realize that we are all capable of thinking in colors not mono chromatically.

Have yourselves a merry little puke session.

I watched comments grow from 5 to 60 overnight.I guess given the holiday that's understandable.Is this article about faith coerced?Or is it and the comments more about God in the flesh dogma,religious insecurities,intolerance,self pity and superiority.AS a Black American,there is always some type of heavy handedness in this country,once administrated;"well that's just the way it is".Where is the love,justice and openness,toward people who are not in the majority?

I read posts here very infrequently, so I hope I'm not perceived as an interloper.

I am a Christian. I write here on this Christmas Eve morning to express my own belief in only one concept -- that "the things of God" (or "spiritual things", if you prefer) are supernatural. From that one truth flows most of the basis for an understanding of how I, as a Christian, come to the beliefs that I hold, and to my own faith and practice.

It is impossible to "prove" God's existence, in human, intellectual terms. So I don't try to do that. But, I look around me and consider the extent to which all things on Earth are interdependent and integrally related, and I conclude that God -- in ways, and perhaps for reasons that I won't understand until I see Him face to face -- put it all in place, and set it all in motion.

It is impossible to "prove", in human, intellectual terms, the concept of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

It is impossible to "prove", in human, intellectual terms, the existence of the Holy Spirit that came to indwell me, supernaturally, when I came to my own salvation. But I can assure those who read this that I am indwelt by God's Holy Spirit -- God's presence within me -- through which God supernaturally communicates with me. For me, that communication has never been audible, but it is no less certain -- no less "real" -- than if it had been audible.

It is impossible to "prove", in human, intellectual terms, the "truth" of the many promises of mercy and grace in the New Testament. But in my 60 years -- 25 of those as a practicing Christian -- I have experienced far more than enough real-life, flesh-and-blood confirmations of those truths in my own life to be able to offer personal "testimony" (as would a witness in a trial in a courtroom) to the fact that those New Testament concepts of mercy and grace have proven to be "true" in my own life, experientially.

So, in this Christmas Season, I offer for the consideration of all who read this that, if you don't "know Jesus" today, you just won't -- you just can't -- understand, because the things of God are supernatural, and are only "spiritually discerned". But I can assure you that if you will make of yourself a blank canvas, and if you will truly wipe away any preexisting "religious" notions -- about God, about Jesus, about sin, about death, about eternity -- and if you will simply ask Jesus Christ to introduce Himself to you, He will do so ... and then you will understand.

I can't tell you how to go about asking Jesus to introduce Himself to you. But the good thing is ... it doesn't matter how you go about it. If you'll just do it sincerely and openly, in whatever way -- in whatever words and/or actions feel right to you -- God the Father will receive it, and Jesus the Son will introduce Himself to you, and God's Holy Spirit will come to indwell you, and then you will understand what we Christians are talking about.

Christmas blessings to all, in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, born on Christmas Day in Bethlehem, whom they crucified, who is risen, and who sits at this moment at the right hand of God the Father, from whom all blessings flow. Amen.

brotherlostforwords claims that:

"Firm facts are what's written down, especially in Holy Books. Until the facts don't appear so firm anymore, like the sun goes around the earth, then they best not be considered as facts no more. Just human mistakes in transcribing. Also some Holy Books are more holy than others, hence more factual."

i see, so written holy means firm. except when holy is a mistake by humans in transcription... so, for the periods of history when there were no books, no writing, just stories passed down from one person to another, were those stories holy? and what of all the other holy stories out there in the world, the hindus have a lot of holy stories with many gods, and they believe in all that. is their holy as firm as yours? and the aboriginies in australia also have holy beliefs, what about those? are you absolutely incapable of seeing the nonsense of what you write, how weakly constructed your hubris, to the point that only your passion can hold it up?

Anon, im not bitter, angry, shrivelled soul... as a matter of fact, i have a great time in my life communicating freely with all kinds of people without any devine prejudice, any sense of self-constructed superiority, or any infantile sense of moral righteousness. its funny that you use those words to describe those who choose reason over myth, for those words are so symbolic of so much of the religious-inspired hatred that characterises the world: what else could get brother to turn on another, neighbors on another, strangers on others, in such vile ferocity as religion?

the worst thing about religious people is their utter inability to see the damage they cause to humanity. blind faith? love? you people wouldnt know love if it bit you in the hind... :-) enjoy christmas, may the new year set you free...

You know why now there are religious wars going on? Its not because of religion per se, but because of the corruption of mankind.

If they didn't corrupt the ideals of religion- any one from the Three- to suit their selfish purposes, do you think we would still have such wars?

Religious wars have been happening for centuries; it won't really stop, because humans are not prefect. But as long as we continue to work on the side of light, even managing to persuading people to cease conflict for a while would be considered to be a success.

And I think we must continue to do that- to spread the right word of the Lord, and not the ones sprouted by those who belong to the extreme side of the other end of the religious/political sphere.

To Tagbutler:

You say, “Maybe Jesus had a bang-up public relations firm pushing his story.”

As I said on another thread, indeed he did -- Constantine, emperor of Rome in the 4th century. Supposedly he had a vision of Christ before a major battle, where Jesus said to him something like, “Fight in my name and you will win.” So he did and he won! He kept praying to Jesus and kept winning. He decided this Jesus was a pretty good God, and also figured the Roman empire had a better chance of survival if everyone believed in one god, instead of the numerous gods (Christian, and various pagan) that co-existed during that time.

To make a long story short, once Jesus had the power of the Roman Empire behind him, expansion and prevalence was pretty easy. Consider that the first official Christian church was “Roman” Catholic. It was completely in charge for 12 centuries, until the Reformation. The church had enormous wealth and control over art, music and learning. With that kind of support, it’s no surprise that Jesus has been such a huge hit.

To TJ Jakes:

You mention that Joseph was Jesus’ “adoptive” father. I’ve never seen that in the Bible. Also, It’s my understanding from the Bible that the lineage of Jesus from David, is traced though Joseph. So how does that work, if Jesus is indeed adopted – or even if he isn’t, really? Because if his real (birth) father is God, what difference does his adoptive father’s background make?

No one believes this baloney.

SMAFDY --

Thanks for your enlightening response.

The calendar I bought yesterday has a big "2007" across the top. I think that means 2007 years since Jesus' life. That's a pretty strong connection.

That's a good point on Zoroaster. He reportedly wrote lots of poems or texts. But his followers seem to be losing steam. While Zoroastrianism was once a dominant religion in Asia, it is virtually unknown in modern society. Feel free to talk about Zoroaster at your family celebration tomorrow -- he sounds like a party killer to me.

That was another good point on Constantine. He ruled 300 years after Jesus lived. Constantine had dozens of deities to chose from. He could have made himself a god (other emperors did it!). Why did he choose Jesus, a poor, persecuted, dead teacher who should have been long forgotten by the time Constantine rolled around?

Let's review your points...Roman gods on the calendar, Zoroaster, Constantine. That's a great history lession. But it doesn't explain why a man who never wrote a book, built a church, or spent a lot of money remains such a powerful and growing force in the world today.

Merry Christmas!

Brother simplewords,

My you are eloquent. You see the plank and not just the speck in the Christians' eyes, as Jesus himself also did. You chose to answer my second part but not the first why? Aren't we non believers worthy of health and peace too? I must admit the 72 virgins part seems a bit wacky. But isn't it true some of you use it to incite and reward mass murder? Does your religion authorize the killing of the nonconverts or not? Why do you oppress women by making them cover up from head to toes? Why do you cover up what God himself created? Are you ashamed of his creation? Do you make women cover up because your men can't practice self control? Do you give in to the sexual urge quite so easily, at the sight of a woman's face or her heaving breasts? Why don't you allow them to drive, or vote, or work, or be educated? Now I realize not all Muslim societies do such things. But enough of them do to give your religion a bad image yes? Is it the infidel's fault that Sunnis and Shiites murder each other through out history, even now? When I go shopping everyday I don't see a single product stamped with the 'Made in X' where X is an Arab country. Why not? Granted man does not live by bread alone. But he does not get by with just five time a day prayer either. Does your civilization intend to stay in the Middle Age for good? How long do you intend to play the victim of the imperialist West card? Well I have news for you the imperialist West did it to lot of other peoples too. Crying about it now won't do any good. Get over it. Look at the rest of Asia like China, and India. In America they have a saying, God help those who help themselves. Try it.

And those who LOVE THE APPEARING OF JESUS said Amen! The Gospel is like a two headed coin. You get one flip of the coin and you get to choose which side the coin lands. Its your choice. On the one side, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel. For it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (in Christs atoning final work of the Cross)." One the other side of the coin, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth by unrighteousness.

The choice is yours. Choose. The time is near for judgement. And if judgement begins with the house of God what will become of the godless and sinner? Even so Amen!

Jesus was an incarnation of God, but not the only one! You and I are also incarnations, or if you prefer, God's offspring. Jesus knew that and tried to get all the people around him to discover it too.
Nobody would accept it if they were told straight out, so he had to demonstrate it by his actions.
Ever wonder what made you and me worth the ultimate sacrifice, in the mind of someone you were always told was the embodiment of God Himself?
This, which I am telling you straight out, was what made it worth any cost. Do you accept it?

6 years ago I would have accepted your testamnet of faith, I would have accepted your distortions of history to fit your belief, I would even support your right to solicit others to believe as you. But no more! You and your fellows are not content to have the right to worship as you please, free from persecution by the state or any organization in it. No you need to suggest that your misguided faith needs to be inshrined in the laws of the land to prevent others from having the freedoms you have have unjustly perverted. You demand that all share your delusions. It is an incredible feat to take a Jewish prophecy of the creation of a Kingdom of God by God into a bloody human sacrifice by those same Jews to make Jahweh forgive Mankind for being created as sinful, the apparent image of God? Now Jahwah is always known for his forgiving ways, his forbearance. He can hardly be held accountable for floods, petilence, death of first borns, etc....I mean what's a God to do with these irresponsible humans anyway.. Oh yeah, I can believ God would say... there they go butchering me as the SON of God; that proves they really LOVE me and I forgive them!! RIGHT!!

The doctrine that "the Father" sent "His Son" to Earth contradicts the Bible.

It is impossible for a Father and a Son to exist eternally - by definition, the Father must precede the Son, who, further by definition, is created by the Father. In short, it is impossible for the "Son" - as presented in the essay above - to exist as eternal God since there must be some point in time when the Father existed alone before the Son's creation.

This is the lie of Trinitarians. It's a 3-person formula that is unbiblical and logically repugnant. The Biblical Truth of God's Nature is explained in this excerpt from the Bible Study entitled, "Jesus Christ: One-God Preacher."

+++++++++++

Beginning about A.D. 325, religious leaders taught followers to split God up into 3 parts, or "persons." This is called Trinitarianism, from which we get the word Trinity. It rejects the Bible's teaching that the same One God, and only One God, appears to humanity as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

According to their teaching, each of those three is instead a separate and distinct person, exactly the same way you and I are separate and distinct individuals. Trinitarians say these "persons" are independent beings acting in agreement with one another in all they do . . .

Did any Apostle ever believe what Trinitarians teach? Did Jesus ever teach what they teach?

No.

The Bible proves it: When asked the most important commandment of all, Jesus recited Deuteronomy 6:4. After telling the religious teacher "the LORD our God is One," the religious teacher tells Jesus He is telling the truth. Of course, Jesus knows it is the truth; He is God, and so is talking about Himself. But the religious leader doesn't know that yet about Jesus.

Since the time of Moses to this very day, every Jew, including Jesus during His time on Earth, repeats Deuteronomy 6:4 (called She'ma Yisrael - "Hear, O Israel!"). Jesus taught it is the most basic belief about God. He commands all Jews to repeat it when arising and before going to sleep. It's required, not optional. Because God's Word never changes, it's just as true for us in the New Testament Church as it was for Jesus.

So, when Jesus said, "the LORD our God is One," what did it mean to the religious teacher?
When one Jewish religious teacher tells another Jewish religious teacher God is One, they mean:

1) We always write about or discuss God in the singular. He is the only absolute reality, since all else is dependent on Him. There is no Creator and power but Him.

2) God's essence is One, although we can perceive Him through various attributes. (Think of light through a prism. It is simultaneously one, and yet made up of various wavelengths from red to violet. God appears in several manifestations - Father, Son, Holy Ghost - but He is still only One in being, like the single ray of light.)

3) He is One unconfined by space or time. Without past, present or future, He is everywhere, always.

4) He is the Sole God. He has no "partners" ruling in Heaven with Him.

These points, especially the last, are where Jesus and today's Trinitarian churches part company. You can see for yourself He taught the religious leader God, revealed in Deuteronomy 6:4, is the truth. Trinitarians don't believe, and don't teach, what Jesus taught.

++++++++++++++++

The information above is an excerpt from the full Bible Study. You can get a free download of the complete, reprintable version of the single-page, two-sided study that includes a space reserved on the back for your organization's invitation to join in worship, study, and fellowship. It's a free download with no information requested about you before you can download the Abode Acrobat Reader file. Thousands use it daily to educate others who ask what Jesus and the Apostles taught about the nature of God.

http://www.kennethelamb.com/rt/jog/jog0212.htm

-30-

SJ: This is a first to me!!! You said that "Muslims have altered the Christian and Jewish scriptures to suit themselves"!!!

I hope you don't mean that muslims actually came up with their own "version" of the bible. Muslims believe in the following:

1. God is ONE (no trinity or even duality)
2. All prophets, including Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed are "just prophets of God". We make no distinction among them
3. The original gospel has been modified by early christians to fit their needs. Enough to say that the earliest manuscript was written, conservatively, 35 years after Jesus!!!

I read the bible because Islam allows me to do that. I hear on foxnews those ultra conservative evangelicals refusing to even consider reading the Quran. I say, read it! If there is good in it, good for you. If not, more power to you against muslims. Makes sense?

You said you are an expert and that I lack knowledge on what you believe. Actually you are right, I must know first to which church denomination you belong to before I know what your beliefs are. Once I know that, I should pick the right "bible version" that suits you. Then I need to know if you are using an old or a newer version of that bible. At that point, I will know what you believe in. That's hardly a straight path!

Regarding Simplewords: The Muslims have altered the Christian and Jewish scriptures to suit themselves. Read the actual Gospels instead of your own versions. We don't misinterpret our own faith or Bible, you lack knowledge of what we believe. I am both a scientist and someone who has carefully read every word of the Bible. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, friend.

Those who don't believe sound very angry and bitter like some other poster said. Infact their comments made my stomach curdle. I am sorry those that use their foolish human intelligence, have had hard knocks in life, but everyone does. And the hard knocks are made easier to handle when you have faith in a higher power. I would rather have that than end up bitter, angry and shrivelled up like a 5 day left over piece of meat that fell underneath the oven. Because essentially that is what you are if you think that you were not made in God's image. You are just a piece of meat which will rot and get eaten by maggots and worms when you die. And what would you have left for future generations of the world? NOTHING but the memory of your surly, bitter, and angry self. What a SHAME, may God save your shrivelled souls, you badly need it!! ANON

An anonymous wrote:

"Ahh, yes -- they ask for 'guidance' to non-muslims -- they don't learn to land -- just guidance so that they can do the most destruction -- kill the most number of non-muslims..."

Here we go again! Another person suckling his thumbs, trying to deflect his/her emotional and religous problems, by painting a bad image of, "who else?", muslims. Like I said in my previous post, and you confirmed it again, you people want to look good by making everyone else look bad! I suggest that you take your finger out of your mouth, open the bible, and read all the texts that no one in your church will ever read to you. You want to know about killing, read the bible. You want to know about sex and love songs, read the bible. You want to know about ok-deceit, preference of vergins over others, women degradation, unpunished adultry, and no-limit monogomy, read the bible! These are the same issues that Islam is always attacked with, even though it doesn't exist. On the contrary, Islam regulated the human life as God sees fit. Yet, somehow, christians do not READ their own bible and get to know the horrors in it. Jesus (peace be upon him) is not to blame. He did his job and delivered the message. The forefathers who started christianity after him have betrayed Jesus and his message. Now you are paying the price by believing in a scripture that is nothing but. Why don't you FACE the TRUTH at least once in your lifetime? If muslims end up where they are today in your mind, then be it. At least then you can continue abusing them but with clear heart.

May God help you and help us all!

I am not sad and bitter. I am not a junior logician. If you would really study the spirit you should start with An(na), the first humans idea of godhead. She, and god was a woman for tens of thousands of years before she was turned into a man by someone with a penis, is still the source of all life. I pray to Her every day and She answers my prayers. The real problem with modern religion is its insistence on talking about the wrong stuff. It's just too obsessed with what people do sexually. How absurd is that? Morality is certainly not about who you sleep with and how, but how you treat them, female and male alike. We are silly species who think we know a lot of things that really we don't. I personally am happy to be with the Lady every day. GOod luck to all of you.

Why do we remember him and why is Christianity such a force today? His PR man was Paul. His enforcer was Rome and other European governments which followed. We laugh at Mayan and Greek supernatural myths and the devotional lengths their believers went to. But ours are okay.....

Steve,

Thanks, but I'll pass on your prayers for me. I want to face my fate without the added burden of your obvious problems.

Cheers and good luck in eternity!

E.B.

Brother LOSFORWARDS wrote:
"How about not extolling the virtue of the virgins so much? And why do you need 72 of them? You will be in heaven yes? What do you need the virgins for? A sex fest?"

What you just wrote is what "you hope" Islam is, but it isn't the truth at all. You suffer from the same sickness that most christian brothers have. You always hope what you think is right, but never try to investigate it. Why? Because you don't want to look at your problems and the easiest way out is to make everybody else look bad, so you feel no need to question your own position. How sad! You read your bible and skip over everything that you don't want to see, and stop only at the places where you feel good. There isn't a single religion that got abused by its followers like christianity. Yet, no one dares to look at its history and try to understand if what they have is right or wrong. Christians love catch phrases like "72 virgins", "women abuse", and so forth. This is like the drug they use to sedate people. When you look at Islam's views on these issues, you will understand that you tried, knowingly or not, to treat Islam the same way your earlier forefathers treated christianity, by abusing the scripture.

Like it or not, the 3 million in Mecca today aren't thinking of any sex party (as you like to believe), but they truely seek to purify their souls and confess their sins to the one God of the heavens and the earth. The mercy of God always surround them and only a muslim can feel it. Brother!, how come I ask you to face the one God and seek guidance from him alone, yet you ridicule me and then go confess your sins to another human just like you! Does this make any sense?

When Jesus said, "no one gets to the Father except through me," He was indicating a transformative experience brought on through loving Jesus. He brought the gentiles into the Abrahamic tradition and though we are not the literal descendents of Abraham like the Jewish people, we are all "children of God." This is a humble position and glorious, too. We obey and honor and love God like a child feels towards their father. It is through our very smallness that we feel the wonder and awe of knowing God. Maybe this is what Jesus meant. Surely, though we all grow in our mothers' wombs, God gave each of us the spirit of life.

To Dave R: Thank you.

Season to Reason

As Christmas dawns perennially
Be rational, reason like Christ
He was focused on loving mission
So pure, genuine and unblemished
Humble meek and mild as a child
Advent epitomizes genuine humility
Incredible birth lowliest in History
Truly he gave his entirety "Himself."

Christmas was born in a loving heart
Not charmed under a glamorous tree
Shepherds token was a humble lamb
Wisemen rightly fulfilled their part
What is out gift to present Christ?
He expects humanity's loving heart
His advent the reason for the season.
bankole@mindspring.com
From: Teardrops Keep Falling - Collection of poems by Roland B. Marke

1. Say: He is God,the One.
2. God is He on Whom all depend.
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.
4. And there is none co-equal or comparable unto him.

Quran :112

Jesus (PBUH) was one of the chosen ones like Moses (PBUH), Abraham (PBUH), and Mohammed (PBUH).All believing in One God the creator of heavens and earth and all thats between it.God the creator is unique nothing in this world can compare to it.Let alone Jesus (PBUH) a mortal.Who would be raised again by the Almighty God.Seriously Jesus (PBUH), moses(PBUH) Ibrahim (PBUH) Mohammed (PBUH)never said to worship me but they always said fear nothing but the One God. Jesus did not suffer for our sins but he suffered for proclaiming the Oneness of God (to abondon worship of money), he suffered because he preached God's message of the straight path. The path that is just, charitable and loving, leading to God not him. Thats why he was the chosen one, the beloved messangers of God.If one truly loves jesus (PBUH) one should honour him by following his monothiestic message by breaking the False material gods, the way he challanged the intersting loving priests, Lifeless dieties of the Romans, the way he challanged the self rightouse egostic people, throughout his life he stood for the charity against interest, for forgiveness aginst ego, for love against hate.Never would a men so great claim to be God because his always stood aginst arrogance and ego, a man who always stood for justice against injustice, he will never do injustice to himself or to us by claiming to be worthy of worship because there is none worthy of worship but the Almighty who gave Jesus life in pure womb of Mary (peace be upon her).

NH Yankee: midlife is a GREAT time to have questions. One kind of faith says "don't ever question," but there's another kind that grows and deepens because of questions taken seriously. I know a guy who was raised in a fundamentalist church who realized THAT faith wasn't sufficient for his life. Instead of dropping out, by now he's WAY on the other side - reads Borg, Spong, who knows who all. I've found my conversations with him immensely profitable and a blessing to my own faith.

And, um, no, I wouldn't necessarily pin my faith on the behavior of our President, who may be President but is not Lord. There are, however, lots of saints around. You can recognize them; look for people who don't make the front pages.

Peace.

1. Say: He is God,the One.
2. God is He on Whom all depend.
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.
4. And there is none co-equal or comparable unto him.

Quran :112

Jesus (PBUH)was one of Chosen ones like Moses (PBUH), Abraham (PBUH), and Mohammed (PBUH).All believing in One God the creator of heavens and earth and all thats between it.God the creator is unique nothing in this world can compare to it.Let alone Jesus (PBUH) a mortal.Who would be raised again by the Almighty God.Seriously Jesus (PBUH), moses(PBUH) Ibrahim (PBUH) Mohammed (PBUH)never said to worship me but they always said fear nothing but the One God. Jesus did not suffer for our sins but he suffered for proclaiming the Oneness of God (to abondon worship of money), he suffered because he preached God's message of the straight path. The path that is just, charitable and loving, leading to God not him. Thats why he was the chosen one, the beloved messangers of God.If one truly loves jesus (PBUH) one should honour him by following his monothiestic message by breaking the False material gods, the way he challanged the intersting loving priests, Lifeless dieties of the Romans, the way he challanged the self rightouse egostic people, throughout his life he stood for the charity against interest, for forgiveness aginst ego, for love against hate.Never would a men so great claim to be God because his always stood aginst arrogance and ego, a man who always stood for justice against injustice, he will never do injustice to himself or to us by claiming to be worthy of worship because there is none worthy of worship but the Almighty who gave Jesus life in pure womb of Mary (peace be upon her).

I am curious if a printed first edition exists of the book on Genesis signed by author and and where can a authenticated copy can be found. perhaps someone knows the address of the printing house that produced it.

A pox on all you cluds. Look at the universe above through a good telescope on a clear night. To all sides of this rather pompousness and pious argument. Out there is where our true answer lies. A god may exist but not in this universe. He/She/It is too busy elsewhere

Hey, TagButler:

So why are we still talking about him?

I like to talk about Zoroaster (look him up). How is that possible, even after a much longer time?

How is it possible that he has millions of followers today and is so influential in world history that our calendar is keyed to his life?

In what way is our calendar "keyed" to the life of Jesus? We don't even have firm dtes for the life of Jesus. In case you aren't aware, our month and day names are derived from Roman and Norse gods and emperors, Latin numeral names, and even the Latin word for moon? I can't wait to get your reply on this.

Maybe Jesus had a bang-up public relations firm pushing his story. Or maybe He is the real thing.

It was the PR firm. It was run by the Roman Emporer Constantine - the father of Christianity (as well as the original guy who figured how to leverage "Christianity" fiction for political gain). You should look him up, too.

Think about it.

Posted December 23, 2006 10:10 PM

I never questioned my faith (Catholic converted to Lutheran) until I spent several years in East Texas coincidentally with the election of an alleged Christian president from Texas. What I've learned is that it is easy for right wing, fundamentalist Southerners to spout politically correct Christian epitaphs, but as one of them told me, "Oh Honey, you don't think we lee-uv (live) our values. That would be so bo-ur-ing (boring). We jest (just) vo-ut (vote) them and hope the other people lee-uv (live) them." Seeing that philosophy relived every day during that period from both those people and from the White House, caused me to spend many hours in Bible study and serious reflection, researching the origins of the New Testament books and their acceptance into canon. I'm trying to figure it all out knowing that mid-life is one helluva time to suddenly have questions, especially when I think that we have a loose canon in the White House who has already started World War III.

As long as we are assuming, it could be assumed that the Bible, Quran, Book of Mormon, etc were written by the same continuing group/party. Makes sense. They all asssume the O.T. writings.

The action for Christianity is to debark from Judaism and move off on its own. Our logical minds require God and a beginning and rules to live by.

The issue of "faith" should not necessarily be a fight between different individuals or groups. We are all aware that each person is entitle to whatever he/she may believe. But Unfortunately, the results are not going to be the same for each person OR group. Now, that's the sadest part about your choice of faith. No one wants to be wrong but everyone cannot be right. Whatever you believe will cost you a great deed in the end. After carefully doing my research on different faiths and beliefs, I made a critical decision to follow "JESUS CHRIST" because he was able to redeme himself from the captivity of dealth. I believe that if he could save himself, he could also save me.

Regarding Abraham and Isaac:

CIVILIZATION HAS PROGRESSED MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEYOND THE NOTION that a father has the right to sacrifice his son upon an altar, no matter who ordered the sacrifice.

Today, a parent does not "own" a child. He can not slit the throat of that child, EVEN AT THE DIRECT INSTRUCTION OF THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. His moral responsibility would be to stand up to that Creator and simply say, "This is my son. Stuff it, God."

This book of a desert tribe's fairy tales is in short supply of real honor, courage, and integrity. Grow up, people.

The problem with discussing these issues with Christians is that they have been brainwashed and ignore any facts.

What we need to do is teach the history of religion in our schools. Present the reasons the original gods were worshiped, how they evolved over time, and how the story of jesus is not original and was told many, many years before the birth of another savior/god. We need to teach about all the common religions and how they came to be.

Once we provide the true history of religion, most intelligent kids will grow-up with a logical mind that questions superstitions.

I have friends that think their homes are haunted by ghost....give me a break.

Time to stop pretending the bible is a moral code. Look at he evil printed in the bible, the killing, the murder, the child abuse, the sacrifice the death of children for the sin of the father and more. Look at history and watch how the church justified their evil acts in the name of a god. History of religion should be required in middle school and highschool so we can break out children of the abuse of brainwashing by religious nuts.

Funny no one is de-bunking the Koran (Quran)....

The thought of God coming down to save his own creation irks quite a few...

I wonder why?

quote: "Jesus was both in the line of David, as prophesied, and the Son of God. He said so himself, many times."

wow, you must be old to know that Jesus said that himself. Did you have a witness?

The bible also stated the following:

SLAVERY - Leviticus 25:44-46 (NIV)
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

SLAVERY- Exodus 21:20-21
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

OK. lets settle this once and for all. I am Jesus of the year 2007 and if you do not believe me, you will burn in hell and suffer the most horrible torture. You better believe me or my followers will stone you to death. Period.

Stan --

You're right: If some guy in Texas started claiming he was the Son of God, born of immaculate conception, etc., he would be laughed out of town.

So why are we still talking about Jesus 2000 years after he made the same claims? He said enough to get himself killed and left behind just a handful of poorly-educated followers. He was basically a nomad who didn't build anything, didn't write anything down, didn't have any money, and he didn't have any support from the scholars or rulers of his day.

So why are we still talking about him? How is it possible that he has millions of followers today and is so influential in world history that our calendar is keyed to his life?

Maybe Jesus had a bang-up public relations firm pushing his story. Or maybe He is the real thing.

Think about it.

Brother FEDUP,

Firm facts are what's written down, especially in Holy Books. Until the facts don't appear so firm anymore, like the sun goes around the earth, then they best not be considered as facts no more. Just human mistakes in transcribing. Also some Holy Books are more holy than others, hence more factual.

Blogging on the other hand is not writing, so not very factual. No truth value here. You must instead evaluate it on its truthiness, which is more convenient than truth at times, like when you are swapping gifts on Christmas day - Oh I love it, I really do!

timothy, what are the firm facts you claim to have for a jesus fella walking on water? firm facts. interesting choice of terminology for someone who doesnt think science can prove anything. are you open to the possibility that these facts are little figments of your impregnated brain? i cannot wait for 1000 years to pass and for them to think back at us and wonder about how humans could be so stupid.

I think you can't use science to prove Jesus lived and died- just like you can't use science to prove whether Napoleon lived and died, or whether he did become a French Emperor.

Jesus' existence on earth depends on historical accounts, and even when people do realise that historical accounts are biased, the fact that since many people wrote on books about Jesus, and there are firm facts that he did live; walked on water; healed people instantly; and then die on the cross for us; proves that Jesus did live.

And you don't need science to prove that Jesus lived. That's an oxymoronic statement to make.

The question for a lot of people around the world is an age-old question: Is Jesus the Messiah that christians make him out to be, or is he just another Prophet only- as the muslims insist him to be?

I think Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and I think that most christians believe him to be so. But still I respect the fact that followers of Judaism, and Islam have had included Jesus in their religious and historical texts for centuries now, and believe that, at least Jesus Christ is still at least a Prophet. And a good one.

steve g, is the g for god? are you the mysterious all powerful capable of forgiving those that dont agree with you? how fantastic! i can imagine how warm your ignorance feels for you. enjoy it.

Brother Steve,

My what a generous soul you are. You pity the naysayers? Can you do so without the dripping sarcasm at least? In the spirit of Christmas? Once a year?

Brother simplewords:

True peace and health for their fellow muslims, but only guidance to non-muslims? You can't spare some peace and health for the non-muslims, even in prayers? Only guidance?

How about not extolling the virtue of the virgins so much? And why do you need 72 of them? You will be in heaven yes? What do you need the virgins for? A sex fest?

Is this the best we can expect from Jakes? I'd been led to believe that he was an original thinker but there's not a line in the piece he wrote that is not platitudinous. What is it about these mega-church guys? I haven't seen one yet who was anything more than a master salesman. Jakes is phoning in his exegesis of the Holy Writ all the while masterfully playing the game that so many of his fellow men and women of the cloth play best--separating the members of their flocks from their hard-earned dough.

how is it that you people, allegedly grown up thinking humans, can go on and on about such nonsense as faith, jesus, kingdom, all that obviously and shameless absurd nonsense? dont you see that even the symbols you use are shaped by the limations of your ignorance and inability ot imagine outside of your own small knowledge of history? i mean, why all the games - if there is a god, then why play these games with people? to separate between 'believers and non believers' what for? what purpose? if god is all powerful, why be so petty and humanly vain? and why would it, he, whatever, care what any of you think or do? faith is such an absurd construction of this desperate species of ours! obviously it is our own human deficiencies, our need to be different, to be special, to be chose, the chosen people, to be better than another, to consume all other species because we are specially made in gods shape, to have power and control over the dumb masses. thats all religion is: the most virulent, vile disease ever unleashed on humanity. free your selves folks, expose your brains to the world, to nature, follow your common sense as opposed to suspending it to ridiculous lenghts. question the basic of the illogicity of your beliefs, think about the stories from antiquity, the greek gods, the symbols used again and again to say something about out own vile nature.

Great piece, Bishop Jakes.
Of course, the junior-varisty logicians who revel in their unschooled disqualifications of Jesus... will, they're the ones we must pity and love the most.
It just goes to prove what sad, hollow bitterness is possible when you don't let in the warmth of Christ (His idea, His reality, His transecndant mystical potential).
Nay-sayers: you're a sad, bitter, and empty lot, and you envy the Christmas season happening all around you all over the world... but 'twas ever thus, and we don't mind! We forgive you.

Merry Christmas!
Steve G.

TD Jakes is one hell of a preacher -- I love the way he uses the Bible to motivate.

Other than that I think the bible is nothing but a big FRAUD.....as a Mr. Frank Hilario indicates:

"The Bible is the worst book ever published in the last 447 years it’s good as dead.. And I can give you 3 intelligent reasons why I shall not grieve over the death of the Bible:

(1) I grieve not for the Bible that is divisive.
(2) I grieve not for the Bible that is most unreadable.
(3) I grieve not for the Bible that encourages fragmentality."

Read about here: http://www.afroarticles.com/article-dashboard/Article/The-Bible-Is-Dead---I-Expect-Dead-Quiet-On-That-/7032

Oh, please - would you all just shut the **** up?

There are forums for religious idiots AND their detractors to have this kind of troll-debate-and-response, replete with quotations from scripture (and lots of misspellings).

A newspaper is NOT one of them.

The Christian religion is fascinating. We're looking at something that happened 2000 years ago. We then use these hearsay facts and figures to explain that we live forever after we're dead. Something is pretty sick here.

Matthew 5:22

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

For God so love the world that he sent His only son that who ever would believe on him would have eternal life.

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father (God)except through me"
--Jesus

Please don't attack the messengers; read Jesus' own words and learn why those who followed him were not afraid to be fed to the lions, torn apart at the stakes, or put to death by the sword.

"They ask for true peace and health for their fellow muslims, and guidance to non-muslims."

Ahh, yes -- they ask for 'guidance' to non-muslims -- they don't learn to land -- just guidance so that they can do the most destruction -- kill the most number of non-muslims...

"Now, that's "true faith"!"

Yes -- that is the power of people who buy into make-believe stories -- they are willing to kill and be killed for it.

In this age of scientific enlightenment it is impossible to say that something came from nothing. Jesus claimed to be God wrapped in human flesh and that only through him can anyone obtain eternal life John 14:6. Now, if you simply look at the historical, archaeological, prophetic, and imperical evidence that exists today in the form of changed lives you have to at least do some research and get the facts before discounting his claims. Read, research, and try to prove he was not who he claimed to be and see what you find before making statments that God does not exist. The consequences are eternal and if you want to roll the dice on Darwin or any other dead prophet be my guest. Follow a dead savior and you'll end up just like him. and, we can all be wrong but we cannot all be right. it is going to be something and i will take my chances with the resurected Christ.

I'm with Wagdy. T.D Jakes' mini-sermon helps me appreciate God's gift of life even more.

And, I'm with Vinnie: Loco's attack on Jakes was hard to read.

There is over 3 million muslims gathering today in Mecca to start the hajj. Among them are black, white, and every human colour imaginable. They speak many different languages. They put away all their life savings for this trip. They cry to God asking forgiveness and help in their lives. They say praises to God ask for peace and blessings to all God's prophets, including Adam, Ibraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed. They call the one and only God that created heavens and earth. They ask for true peace and health for their fellow muslims, and guidance to non-muslims. Now, that's "true faith"! 2000 years after prophet Jesus left this earth, regular christians and evangelicals alike still putting forward questions about the validity of their faith! How ironic?

So we are to dismiss the words of Jesus and the prophets,but accept allegations of the like that uptown loco just offered up about T.D.Jakes..

I have never met T.D,nor I have visited his church,but I can say for a fact that his teachings and sermons have blessed me,enlightened me and have helped me..Those are FACTS uptown loco..Your comments about him doing drugs and having mistress's is appaling..

But the beautiful thing is he would forgive you for your nasty behaviour,while you condemn him without knowing him..What's wrong with that picture? Look in the mirror fool..

Martian...I was not referring to a Superior creature I am talking about what is Morally Impossible to attain on our own. God the arbiter of Faith provided us with a SOLUTION to tyranny of death.

Think. Higher beings than humans are not an impossibility given the size of the universe. Imagine a civilization with say five thousand years of scientific achievements instead of five hundred years like yours. They would be way ahead of Homo sapiens.

Now imagine a species with five million years of scientific civilization. They would for all practical purpose appear God like to your species.

If tomorrow some guy in Texas started claiming he was the "Son of God", was born with via Immaculate Conception, walked on water, died and was resurrected to save all of humanity would the world believe him?

The answer is “No.” Most likely we would ridicule him and possibly surround his house with armed men only to kill him by burning it down in a Waco style apocalypse.

Unfortunately, the story of Jesus has been manipulated by those seeking to gain or retain power and riches (Catholic Church, European nobility, T.D. Jakes, etc) throughout history. Jesus is just another guy until there is some scientific proof otherwise.

This is a wonderful Reflection on this magnificent gift of love that Christ so willingly gave us. Among these divine solutions to the dilemma sin and death that gripped our human nature was salvation as a Reality. By giving His Son for our salvation on the Cross God Had once and for all bridged the gap between theory and application,the ideal and the possible. Salvation,in that light, resembles the act of creation itself..a reality that became possible only through Gods Grace.

Bob & Saul2006:

Something new please!!! Regardless of the commentary, you both write the same old things all the time. And, where's your friend YEST ME?

So because Jesus said things you believe him, well here are some otherthings Jesus said
LUKE 4:24
24
And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country

And yet anyone that Has read the Bible Knows that at least 2 prophets-Samuel and Nathan were not only given HONOR in their own country at their own time BUT by THEIR KINGS

13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven ( compare this to below from 2 Kings)

2 Kings 2:1
And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

Jesus said that he was one of the Lords mentioned in the saying " The Lord said to my Lord" which appears in Psalm 110

1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. ( a Priest like Mel- not the Messiah or greatest- or My Heir,)

The above seems to inidicate that Jesus was ignorant or a liar.

But you are invited to visit
http://www.religionquestioned.com which has an offer tro shut down based on false information taught Christians about O.T. Messiah message

As far as Jesus dying for your sins , perhaps you should read

Romans 11:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (Israel-Not World
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[ The sins of Israel- not one word about Original Sin which is something Christian clergy dreamed up)

The two themes that run through the O.T. Messiah message is that the Messiah would restore Israel to it's former glory and that Israel would become Eden like ( Heaven on Earth) nothing about getting one into Heaven

Have you read Leviticus 25:44-46 that says I could buy you and leave as an inheritance to my children? In case you think this is only O.T., Paul who did away with most of the O.T. in THREE different letters told the slave to give their Christian masters a good days work.

"Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God? If so, what exactly does that mean? If not, who was he?"

No. Anyone who does must prove two assertions:

1. That God exists.

2. That God procreates and somehow produces a son.

The concept is meaningless.

Jesus was a Jew, possibly a revolutionary, who did not confine himself to doctrine and dogma, had some influence among the populace of his time, opposed the status quo and was affective enough to warrant execution by the religious and political power elete of his time. . . Today, he might be a simple Palestinian who might influence the Israeli public to such an extent that both the Palestinian and Israeli power eletes would simply kill him because he posed too great a threat to their status.

It's obvious, as you point out, that the new testament was sort of inexactly constructed to echo all the claims of authenticy in the context of the old testement, thus claiming continutity with Judaism. Of course, Jewish scholars never bought it, and still don't. Nobody else cares very much about any of it.

Have a warm and wonderful holiday!