Abortion, Christianity and Life

Whether a fetus or a person I don't think anything created by God should be terminated by human. Does that make me an Anti-abortionist? You make your own conclusions. Nothing in this world happens by mistake. I don't have a problem with abortion or those who oppose it. What I do have a problem with is this...God has given us all an incredible gift. That gift is the gift of free will. It was given, I think, in order that we can prove to God that we will follow God on our own volition. We as a society, a government, as friends or parents have no right to tell someone how to choose. When we do so we are attempting to take away their God given right to make a choice. That is not the way God planned it. Freedom to choose is the idea that this country was founded on. Taking away a persons right to chose is wrong no matter how you look at it. I don't know how anyone who claims to be christian can try to take away a person's God given right to make their own choices.

Ashe' and Amen.

I am happy to read that someone is willing to stand up for the children that are born into situations of despair. It saddens me that few abortions activist can say, “ Here are the children I adopted from a woman I talked out of having an abortion.”

No one wants a baby to be" murdered" as some abortion activist claim. But hundreds of thousands of babies in this country are "murdered” every day by the impact of poverty. Why? Because:

more women need prenatal care and family planning education.

more women need to learn how to provide a safe sleeping environment for babies (crib or Pack N’ Plays on their back without pillows, toys, bumper pads, or blankets).

more women need affordable safe housing.

more women need screening for depression/ post partum and link them to care when they need it.

more women need access to health insurance.

We can spend our time in debate or we can roll up our sleeves and follow the divine order that is found in all spiritual traditions, to take care of the least of these.

Most people who carry their Bibles all the time are like the hypocrites who pray in the streets that they may be seen doing so. I consider myself a Christian in that I believe when Jesus said on the cross, "Father, forgive them," he showed us the path to life. Even if that part of the story were proven to be a complete fabrication, it would still be true in the way that mythic fiction is more true than historical fact. I don't need any more than that to know the divine in man, and so I pretty much disregard most of what all else people tell me I have to believe to be saved. So pray for me, all you hypocrites. Maybe that'll keep you out of trouble.

Her Rev Sue:
I see from the comments that people cannot get past their past or present congitive dissonances on this issue. I agree that the killer's picture should be included next to the word hypocrite in any dictionary.

President Obama was spot on in saying that we will not agree on this issue--it's way too complex. However people who tend to think dichotomously cannot see beyond the walls of their own dogma. It is a dogma that seeks to silence anyone or anything in the way or in the WAY. The only word they seem to know is NEVER! Howard Thurman perhaps said it best, as I paraphrase, "Perhaps what we are seeing is a religion "about" Jesus as opposed to the religion "of" Jesus.

Thanks again for stirring the pot!

Ozzie

If God is love and if I am cast in the image and likeness of God who is my Father, then to love my enemy is to honor God. Sometimes loving an enemy is difficult. I once watched a videotape of a meeting of the Lambs of Christ and I wept at what I heard and saw not because of their views on abortion, but because of their absolute moral certitude. Bless your grief over the statements and attitude of the interviewee who defends murder in the name of Jesus. Faced with the dilemma of loving both your enemy and Jesus, what can you do but explain the reasons why you mourn the adulteration of Jesus' word .

Paqid.

After responding in general, let me be more specific:

Yes, the American system of justice is adversarial. It's purpose is to find the truth. There are times when it does NOT find justice; our systems of prisons is a national disaster.

This system of Justice is not a the heart of Dr Tiller's medical practice. He was acting in the best interests of his clients. Under Kansas law...yes, that faulty American justice system...two independent doctors had to certify the medical necessity. As indicated in my previous post, many times, the mother's very life was at stake, and the fetus was non-viable. Would you demand the life of the mother in return for a few days of slow death on the part of an infant who cannot survive?

Those who most strongly advocate for the harshest treatment of those who commit crime in our society often quote "an eye for an eye". Those who have read Rabbi Jeshua know that he said "you have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I tell you, if you hate your brother, you have committed murder."

You disparage Ms Smith for her reference to the "historial Jesus" Aside from telling her to shut up, you have not quoted her accurately. And your manner hardly adds to your argument.

You said:

Her Yale Divinity degree left her entirely ignorant regarding the historical 1st-century Pharisee Ribi who taught Torah and she should shut up on the subject of the "historical" Jew...

But she was not talking about "Rabbi Ribi", unless that is another disparaging title for Jeshua ben Nazareth. She is talking about he teachings of Jesus. And vigilante justice is NOT part of his teachings. Nor is murder.

Your attack on the writer was, in my opinion, unwarranted.

Pr Chris

Dear Paqid16: You asked, how many children would live had Dr Tiller not lived? Some, surely. But there are many who are aborted late term precisely because they had already suffered gross defects in developing which will mean their death shortly after delivery.

I will not defend every abortion that Dr Tiller has performed, just as I will not defend every action anyone performs--humans are flawed and imperfect. But, the majority of abortions were medically necessary, and he was the last hope for women in an emergency situation.
If you would demand that the mother deliver her fetus in every case, would you do so if it meant her death as well? For some of these situations truly put the mother's life in mortal danger.

Most people who go to Dr Tiller didn't wake up in the morning and say "I think I'll get rid of my fetus" They came to him in desperation, because the child is unable to continue normally, cannot survive on its own, and its continued presence in the womb will create medical threat to the mother. Would you demand the mother carry the child to HER death?

This is a tragic and difficult decision, and it tears up the women who have to make it. Many couples, when faced with such a disaster disolve the marriage because of the guilt and hurt, even though they know it was the only reasonable (and a necessary) choice.

Unlike the propaganda of some on the anti-abortion side, the choice in many, if not most of the abortions Dr Tiller performed is not either an abortion or a healthy child. The choice is between a child who cannot survive on its own, and who may cause death and irreparable damage to the mother, or an abortion, which may save the mother's life and/or allow her to have another child. Would you demand such pregnancies continue no matter the cost.

There is an native American saying: do not judge me until you've walked a mile in my mocassins. As a pastor, I have had to help a woman go through the decision process only once. I am daily thankful that I DID NOT HAVE to make that decision for myself. It was the most painful thing she has ever had to do, and she knows it was necessary, but is still haunted by questions and guilt. That is more commonly the situation than the "walk in off the street and get me a morning after abortion." Dr Tiller's death means the deaths of some of the women he might have been able to help, and very few additional children, who will survive for perhaps a few hours or a few days, in suffering while they die. That's not much of a victory.

Both your religion and mine commend charity in our judgments, precisely because we are not G-d. I am willing to do my best to live as he asks me to, and let the judgments to him. You present yourself as an advocate for Logic and Halakhic Authority. But judgment without compassion and understanding can be brutal. Our G-D is not brutal in his dealings with his children.

Pr Chris

While I'm against vigilante "street justice," it's better than the "no justice" afforded the thousands of murdered infants in America's adversary (Hebrew: satan)--NOT justice--system. No one was providing justice to them. When adversarial considerations collide with justice, the American system always gives precedence to the former at the expense of the latter.

Ms. Smith would have been far more moral to have the greater compassion for the thousands of infants that Dr. Tiller killed--and was continuing to kill and the thousands of mothers he helped, and would have continued to help, commit infanticide.

Another question deserving the greater consideration is: how many infants' lives will be spared as a result?

There are millions of people not being treated as kindly as they should be. According to Ms. Smith's reasoning, they should be put down like the infants to prevent suffering. Let's see... where have I heard that "reasoning" before?

Her Yale Divinity degree left her entirely ignorant regarding the historical 1st-century Pharisee Ribi who taught Torah and she should shut up on the subject of the "historical" Jew and stick to her Christian beliefs that arose out of the idolatrous 4th century-redacted Hellenist Roman syncretism. Get an education about the historical 1st-century Pharisee Ribi Yehoshua concealed from the church; consult the History Museum of the Netzarim website at www.netzarim.co.il

Paqid Yirmeyahu
The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel
Israeli Orthodox Torah Jew (Teimani Baladi Dardai)
Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority
Welcoming Jews & non-Jews
www.netzarim.co.il