Faith or Belief in What?

amen to that sister

Amen Susan! I did not watch the Saddleback forum. I find the distinction between church and state and faith and politics interesting although it sounds like relativism revisited. That Mccain got it and Obama missed it does not surprise me as this is the way it is with these two--polar opposites politically and otherwise. This campaign is doing its own brand of social surgery on this nation and I believe we will recover after the political hubris dust has settled. Conservative and liberal seem to be code for other stuff now that race realities have surfaced again. Neither candidate will do much more in office than has already been done and most recently undone by the present administration. I am reminded afresh that in Washington, nothing gets taller than the monument. Thanks for sharing the event because I chose not to watch it.

McCain will go to a Warrior for wisdom? So what kind of wisdom does that warrior have? He may have knowlwedge about war, but is that life wisdom?
Wisdom is knowledge with experience. So I also would rather Obama go to his grandmother. She birthed a child who did not see color or differences as something to fear...who spent her life in helping poor women in places where living was hard, but she gave of herself.She taught her son to be thoughtful and careing...to work hard and to strive for the best you can be.

That view of helping others came from somewhere...that person who raised a black child to be the remarkable man he is. I would love to meet TuTu and gain from her knowledge and experience....that thing called wisdom.

Michelle is a lower, middle class girl, raised in a one bedroom apartment, whose father was handicapped but who worked each and every day... Michelle saw that endurance and work ethic and she used it . She went to school and got the best education she could... majored in sociology at Princeton University, graduating with cum laude honors in 1985. From there she attended Harvard where she earned her law degree in 1988. She is a wonderful mom who is raiseing amazing girls. She is down to earth and has a great deal of commonsence and wisdom.

If you have wisdom you can make it fit anywhere. McCain is a man with two many homes and too much money, maybe he can buy wisdom...the rest of us have to find it in those we are close to and what we find in ourselves.

We each have "experts" we go to...then we have to make our decisions on what those experts say...we have to find wisdom. Hopefully our president will have someone besides a man of war to go to when trying to make a decision on how to bring peace.

terra

I am not sure when the lines blurred between church and state-religion and politics.

Maybe it began when Pontius Pilate, a politician, brought Jesus out before the crowd to determine if he should be put to death or pardoned.

Both Senators are working hard to walk the line, the blurred one between church and state, religion and politics, truth and rhetoric. It may help those who need to make a decision from the middle to see the candidates hang out there in the neutral spaces.

It is a good thing God is everywhere, even in the blurred, neutral spaces. I will just continue to pray… “Your will be done.

Karen Armstrong can cloak the "separation of church and state" in any language that she wants, but I want a candidate who truly cares for the people and not one who says what he knows he should say to win the separatist, I mean the conservative vote.

I am tired of this political posturing that makes America's "moral" issues about abortion, gay marraige, etc. and not about the lack of adequate healthcare for the poor, systemic poverty, the lack of quality education for all students, etc.

When will America wake up and understand that the separatist, "conservative" policies of the fundamentalists have done nothing for America, but create a chasm among her people. And they call this moral!

" This thing is about America, not your family..."

Oh, yes, it IS about family. Family is the fons et origo of our natures as individuals and it creates us. A president should not look to his wife or grandmother or uncle or cousin for advice on an issue unless that person is an expert on that issue. A president, or anyone else, should look to his family for the empathy and understanding of what effects his/her decisions may have on people.

There is a big difference between spirituality and religion. Spirituality doesn’t have any dogma, fiction, or perversion. Spirituality is simply based on everything being connected and part of one body, with One Being behind it all. This is what Jesus A Christ was trying to communicate. It is that simple.

Politics being how various needs and wants are expressed and met or obtained how combined efforts are implemented and what joint ventures are formed and funded. Politics should include the view that we are all one; part of the same body. Religion should not be involved in Politics because it has become perverse in the eyes of the Lord it has become the house of hypocrisy not the House of God.

What is disturbing is how fast both candidates were swept into the Illusion, each not daring to question the popular fiction.

CHURCH: a body or organization of religious believers

FAITH: a system of religious beliefs

There is no difference yet neither candidate questioned it and was able to see through the Illusion created by Rick Warren. In other words he was propagating a fiction.

RELIGION IS AN EGO CREATION NOT ONE OF SPIRIT - scripture says and we are warned that the Churches (institutionalized religion) are the Antichrist; which must be true if we have Faith in Scripture?

McCain with his understandable doubts about the existence of a God resulting from his experience in prison camp, and Obama doesn’t really buy the Jesus died for our sins crap.

Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian. Furthermore the Christians should be thanking the Jews for crucifying Jesus since their act actually redeemed Christians, Jesus could have just committed suicide to die for your sins right?
What this character Jesus did was refuse to buy into the worlds fictions and he set the ultimate example of being steadfast in the truth.

Religion is one big fiction, and it was people protecting The Religion that crucified Jesus because he questioned the fiction and saw through it.

So if anyone really wants to honor Jesus, start ripping the fictions apart with your rational logical discerning minds and live steadfast in the truth, don’t sell out to the ego empire.

Remember a divided people are a weak people. This is what allows 10,000 to take advantage and make subservient the other 300 million people in the United States.

Religion is being used to divide you amongst your selves, in the US and other countries. It is one of the most effective weapons of the source disconnected ego to protect it's fictional world. Religion is a behavioral control mechanism a producer of shame, guilt and irrational conformity.

Most people have no idea what love is, because love that comes with a condition is not love. There is only one source of love, and one can choose to be a channel for it or not.

Why die and go to Heaven when you can bring it to you?

If I recall correctly Jesus once said something like “I am in your world but not of your world”. He was speaking of the world of fiction that most are living in which still persists today but looks like it is in it's end days and the Ego empire is going to fall.

Divine Source connected - Ego Divine
Divine Source disconnected - Ego Bastard

Yes, faith meaning trust is a verb not a noun. The word has been perverted by the Ego and made into a false idol.

There is a big difference between spirituality and religion. Spirituality doesn’t have any dogma, fiction, or perversion. Spirituality is simply based on everything being connected and part of one body, with One Being behind it all. This is what Jesus A Christ was trying to communicate. It is that simple.

Politics being how various needs and wants are expressed and met or obtained how combined efforts are implemented and what joint ventures are formed and funded. Politics should include the view that we are all one; part of the same body. Religion should not be involved in Politics because it has become perverse in the eyes of the Lord it has become the house of hypocrisy not the House of God.

What is disturbing is how fast both candidates were swept into the Illusion, each not daring to question the popular fiction.

CHURCH: a body or organization of religious believers

FAITH: a system of religious beliefs

There is no difference yet neither candidate questioned it and was able to see through the Illusion created by Rick Warren. In other words he was propagating a fiction.

RELIGION IS AN EGO CREATION NOT ONE OF SPIRIT - scripture says and we are warned that the Churches (institutionalized religion) are the Antichrist; which must be true if we have Faith in Scripture?

McCain with his understandable doubts about the existence of a God resulting from his experience in prison camp, and Obama doesn’t really buy the Jesus died for our sins crap.

Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian. Furthermore the Christians should be thanking the Jews for crucifying Jesus since their act actually redeemed Christians, Jesus could have just committed suicide to die for your sins right?
What this character Jesus did was refuse to buy into the worlds fictions and he set the ultimate example of being steadfast in the truth.

Religion is one big fiction, and it was people protecting The Religion that crucified Jesus because he questioned the fiction and saw through it.

So if anyone really wants to honor Jesus, start ripping the fictions apart with your rational logical discerning minds and live steadfast in the truth, don’t sell out to the ego empire.

Remember a divided people are a weak people. This is what allows 10,000 to take advantage and make subservient the other 300 million people in the United States.

Religion is being used to divide you amongst your selves, in the US and other countries. It is one of the most effective weapons of the source disconnected ego to protect it's fictional world. Religion is a behavioral control mechanism a producer of shame, guilt and irrational conformity.

Most people have no idea what love is, because love that comes with a condition is not love. There is only one source of love, and one can choose to be a channel for it or not.

Why die and go to Heaven when you can bring it to you?

If I recall correctly Jesus once said something like “I am in your world but not of your world”. He was speaking of the world of fiction that most are living in which still persists today but looks like it is in it's end days and the Ego empire is going to fall.

Divine Source connected - Ego Divine
Divine Source disconnected - Ego Bastard

Yes, faith meaning trust is a verb not a noun. The word has been perverted by the Ego and made into a false idol.

I don't know and you don't either whether Harold is an imbecile . However, he IS really good at copying and pasting from the bible, lol.

And the rest of the developed world is laughing at America and the American public who are more concerned with the religious beliefs of their so-called leaders than their political platforms which are far more important.

In the big scheme of things, the abortion, homosexuality, and other "Christian" issues are non-events.

And, HAROLD, you are an imbecile!

Interesting how Smith can cast stones at Warren while she supports Black Liberation in churches and apologizes for the racist Reverend Wright.

Although I believe that this forum was legal according to the Constitution, it is my feeling that it was inappropriate. The candidates religious views should have no bearing on their fitness for office. Sounds like a sneeky way to get around the "no religious test required for office." Will we have a forum from the Buddhists, Muslims, etc.?

Solomon said,
My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

“Unto the woman he said”
“I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception”
“in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children”
“thy desire shall be to thy husband”
“he shall rule over thee”

Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the Lord was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.
And Moses said unto the Lord, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?

“Moses said unto the Lord”
“Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant”
“wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight”
“that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me”
“Have I conceived all this people”
“have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me”
“Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child”

And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

“Lord God said unto the serpent”
“thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field”
“I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed”

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

“the bread that I will give is my flesh”
“which I will give for the life of the world.”
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life”
“He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.”

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

“My sheep hear my voice”
“I know them”
“they follow me”

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

“Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead”

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

“Love your enemies”
“bless them that curse you”
“do good to them that hate you”
“pray for them which despitefully use you”
“and persecute you”

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

I felt Obama did really well. McCain had to make up a story to pull on the audience emotions. Yes, I believe he made up the story about the guy drawing the cross in the dirt. The story about the guy drawing the cross in the dirt was stolen from a guy named Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The book came out in 1962, however mccain was a POW from 1967 to 1973. How sad. Did McCain not think he would get caught?

Come now. Faith and belief aren't the same thing. Why do they have two words for one thing?

Here we are in crisis state with unhappy rich folks. What are we going to do about unhappy rich folks? Now there's something both belief and faith can do for us, make rich folks happy. Do you believe, have faith God will come through and make rich people happy?

Awe crapola. They don't even know what rich is. Neither candidate for the second highest office on earth president of the USA which is just one giant step below below pastor couldn't tell us what rich is. So how can we ever expect to make rich people happy when we can't even identify them. And how does senator McCain know there are unhappy rich folks if he doesn't know what rich is?

The government must help God out in God's charter to make rich folks happy. We know rich folks like money even though it doesn't make them happy in the present quantities they have. So we can do a "faith based initiative" and the government can just give them a lot more money. Both candidates said they are in favor of that.

Do you believe in, is your faith in faith based initiatives? If your faith is not in, you do not believe in faith based initiatives you have no one to vote for. In that case write in BGONE.

"McCain said that he would put his country first"

To quote McCain himself, he is only saying this because of his ambition to become president.

Susan:

If the jury is still out, I will take that to mean that you are a liberal and though McCain was compelling, you are still beholden to the Democratic party for some reason.

McCain has nothing to loose, a life full of real experience, and strong (Christian alligned) convictions, Obama really wants to be President badly. I believe that his philanthropic promises and rhetoric will fall short.

I wonder if God ever feels "used"? This feels like one of those times that so-called, well-meaning Christians found it convenient to "use" God, faith, and religion for political ends. Unfortunately, I do not perceive that these same people would appeal to faith to justify uncomfortable ethical decisions -- THEN it would be a matter of separating faith and politics!

Greetings
I figured it out the reason we find it hard to separate church and state is because people only allow God in when the want the advantage of a situation (talking politics in church setting). People hide behind religion or in The name of God to justify making the natural man decisions. America is looking for a easy way out of the mess we are in. Isn't it a true fact that only an act of providence can get us out of this. So if we have things in a church people will say it is about God when the truth of the matter it is about man and their never ending manipulation of peoples heart, mind. This is sad but true. shame on them, shame on them!

Life is about Planet Earth, not just about Politics in America.

Italy is having an Immigration Problem. Is there any country on Earth without a population explosion? Should Earth, with it's livable land mass, have a Human Limit?

Earth's Population, went from 1 Billion in 1900, to 6.7 Billion today. Why? A Sexual Revolution?

Without Contraception Birth Control, and Homosexual Sex Birth Control, and, all the Killing Wars in the 1900s, what would our Home Planet's Population be today?

Society has handled the sowing, by building multi-dwelling houses and tall apartment buildings, and Humans live on boats on the water?

Have Humans Taken Care of their own? Why not? The Inequality of food and housing for the masses?

If Humans cannot feed and clothe what they reproduce, what should be the Answer? Make the male sterile?

The female cannot make all the starving and homeless Life, without the male. How do Humans Take Care of this Overload? Pray to God?

What will Stop this Human Explosion, by the Male. A Nuclear War? Why does the Male procreate, and then Kill what they made Alive?

Whatsoever the Male Plants, GOD joins the seeds together for Reproduction. In the Bible, sowing and reaping is mentioned 108 times, in 95 verses. Is the Human Species sowing their seed on Good ground?

Humans from the Bad Seed, Kill, and are setting up the Last Days Nuclear War, including Christians and All God's Children. Why?

This War will destroy All Human Life on Earth, all the Flora and Fauna, and Our Eco System. Why? For the Love of God and Jesus? What happened to 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'?

The Highest Species on Earth, Should be about their Father's 'Life' Business, instead of the Business of Sowing/Reproducing Human Killers.

There is a High Tech Science 'Way' to Reproduce Perfect Caretakers Humans, with High Tech Eternal Physical Life After Birth. Humans learned this, while they made Nuclear Bombs.