How About An Infotainment-Free Day?

Onofrio wrote:

"Walter, so many tales hang thereby, i.e. said canonicities, reliabilities, et al."

Thou sayest a true thing!

Farnaz1:

I don't know where you began, much less the level to which you have progressed. Perhaps you can find some help through this link to Zen Mountain Monastery.

http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/meditation.php

Farnaz,

On the hop, me.

Horizons are full of knives, with which even the sun must reckon.

Re Tolkien on Beowulf:

Yes, indeed I have read it, though it has been a while between Ent draughts. I wrote an essay on it way-back-when, as an undergrad. Majored in Old English. No emphatic Agincourt, so I cannot remember (with advantages) what feats I did that day.
That would be, let's see, 20 years ago.

Walter-in-Falls-Church,

Walter, so many tales hang thereby, i.e. said canonicities, reliabilities, et al. If only I had world and time enough to toss them all about, threadwise, like McGregor Mathers' peas in a sieve.

Will no doubt get the chance for at least a little rattling, bye and bye.

you know, it's funny to me when people parse the words of this or that scripture and argue over which scripture is canonical - as if ANY of it is reliable. (this is of course mostly with reference to judeochrislamic religion as its scripture is purported to be "historical".)

it was ALL written by superstitious men years after the purported events with whatever personal agendas they had.

Hmmmm....Tous Les Personnages?

:-)

Tous Les Personnes,

Music to calm the savage breast and greet the Spring:

http://www.hafizonlove.com/divan/index.htm

Onofrio,

Speaking (or not) of Tolkein, have you read his essay on "Beowulf"?

Doug White,

Thanks very, very much for the link. Have bookmarked and will watch this afternoon, when Zen-like mood will be absent, but much needed!

Also, you mentioned you found the Poles "VERY skittish." Can you elaborate?
Have met many Polish emigres. Know the economy is not good. Many more leaving since Poland joined the EU.

They are unhappy with the last twenty years or so, disappointed, etc.

Forgive errors in hasty posting. The gist, methinks, is clear enough.

Here is the problem and sorry for being so direct, but there's nothing for it. Two bloggers, who, quite simply are and have been more wronging than wronged have set up house in a trench sniping at passers-by, the only battle here in their war-weary minds.

Both are angry, but their anger has nought to do with this thread or with those who blog on it. They set up house or trench, post whiny/complaining missives, bemoaning their (non)victimization, and vengefully, trample or burn every olice branch held out to them.

In the case of one, he wishes to believe there is a resurrected God, cannot distinguish between "spirituality" and his own religious system, is threatened, indeed has been angered greatly at knowing that much recorded in the NT has been tossed, including, and most especially the "trial," of which much has been posted and written on this blog. Even CCNL knows it could not have happened. That Jews of the period were interested not in the many prophets, proclaiming themselves this and that, but in the codification, interpretation, of the Tanakh via the Tanaim is simple and well established fact, supported by numerous indepedent documents.

Links have been offered to Arminius, who refused to look at them, screaming at the mention.

Arminius fails to recognize that none are not concerned with what he does or doesn't believe, but that in asserting his beliefs, he dismisses the heritage of others, the harm certain misguided assumptions have wrought, not to mention facts and truth.

If his beliefs rest on such slight foundations, that, methinks, is his problem, and his alone. It does not warrant assaults on other bloggers. If when bigots post on this thread, he does not call them on it, while others do, and then identifies with those bigots, he should examine his OWN behavior.

To identify with ignorant bigots is evil enough, to speak out against those who protest endangers the soul and worse--the soul, Christian or otherwise.

Self-examination is a long-held requirement of Protestantism. Indeed, Protestantism, arose in the context of a reconceptualization of "self." NB.

As for the other, Germany committed crimes against humanity that did not begin with WWII. It's xenophobia with respect to its minorities had a long, long history. The Holocaust was an outcome, in part, of that.
They began it, engineered it, but many Jews were killed by simple Christian/Catholic nationals who took German occupation as an opportunity to kill Jews. (The Trial)

Continues below

Part II

This is not Nevermore's doing, but it happened. It affected not only those sought out by the EuroChristian racist murderers, but their children, their children's children, etc. The generations. All of us. Remember, WWII was a worldwide phenomena, effected not only Europe, but the Middle East, Africa.

Judaism does not hold responsible the children of murderers nor the innocent among the murdering nations. Nor do I.
Indeed, Israeli psychologists worked with the children of high-ranking nazis to debrief them and bring them back to health. Well documented.

But guilt is guilt. One cannot blame others for the guilt one experiences rightly or wrongly. ONe cannot blame those whose existence reminds you that your country commited a horrible crime for which it will be remembered until time, itself, ends. When you single these people out, you do them double injury.

In the interim, if this authentic folie a deux, this battle of two against the known and sane world, were to stop, the thread might pick up again. In the interim, since they have one another's email addresses, they might do us all a favor and use them to complain about everyone else, might save their more substantive comments for this thread. Complaining, w(h)ining is fine, if not carried to excess, and if not imposed upon those undesirous of listening.

Just some thoughts, desperately NOT seeking more postings on same.

Farnaz Mansouri
Dilettante Extraordinaire

Lovely Nevermore,

"Oro, Ono, Frio, what the heck is the difference?!?!"

If you can't tell, I'm afraid I can't help you.

"I doubt that your eclactic intellect has ever read Tolkien!"

Doubt away. But I know my Fingolfin from my Fangorn, my Noldor from my Sindar, and my Stoors from my Fallohides.

Given you're so, um, orthographically challenged, I'm sure you probably can't tell the difference between Sauron, Saruman, and Samwise. So best leave that one alone, eh?

As for spankings...

Nevermore brayed:

"since I doubt that your eclactic intellect has ever read Tolkien!"

Maybe, maybe not. But I'll bet he knows how to spell 'eclectic'.

Arminius The Tattooed Lady wrote:

"And tomorrow I'll be sober."

And tomorrow, you'll still be an alcoholic. Hahahahaha.

Oro, Ono, Frio, what the heck is the difference?!?!

Sauron? You must be speaking of the comic book character, since I doubt that your eclactic intellect has ever read Tolkien!

Good night, Frito (Lay, Lie, Lay)

Down already, Puppy, before you get a good spanking!

Arminius and Neromore,

The clear-and-present duumvirate ;-)

"But you are all dilettante fools."
Why thank you, I've always pretended to that. Especially the fool part.

"And tomorrow I'll be sober."
I forgive you, Arminius. I know it's just the beer talking.

Aw, Nevermore,

"all but destroyed this blog!"
There, there Scarlett. Tomorrow is another day.

"Rest of the world"?
They're snoring. Mind the hubris, dear.

"I will not step back and sit on the back of the bus!"
Good. It is unsafe, especially during turns. At the back is better.

"Now was I frank and terse enough? Do you get it???"
Frank, maybe. Terse, no - too wordy.

I do get it, Nevermore. I see you ;-) , you know, like Sauron.

BTW, who is Oro?

Onofrio, Farnaz, and Stadtbe...oops, Doug,

To the wannabe triumvirate:

I am cheerfully about two beers over the limit.
But you are all dilettante fools.
And tomorrow I'll be sober.

Oro, Doug and Farnaz,

Your little a.m. banter (with all the hidden wordplay), the sniping at other posters, and your ill will, has all but destroyed this blog!

So go sit in the corner with you dunce hats and be still for once.

The rest of the world would much appreciate it.

And, yes, I will call you to task and I will not step back and sit on the back of the bus!

There are many of us who have had it with individuals like you because you belong to the "in your face" crowd, who think their farts and feces don't stink!

WEll, I have news for you! They DO!

Now was I frank and terse enough? Do you get it???

Farnaz1:

Next time you are in a zen mood...

http://www.vimeo.com/4347460

ONOFRIO wrote:

"I fear you'll burst from all that apoplexy."

Hahaha! Remember Hotlips Hoolihan and Frank?

I even annihilated my clanking 'Legion' self on your Parthian behalf, and construed you victorious.

And you huff and puff like an offended angel...

Be a little kind.

Arminius,

"This is the most absurd pseudo-intellectual mutual masturbation festival I have ever had the misfortune to witness."

Take a breath Arminius, and step down from your high horse.

I fear you'll burst from all that apoplexy.

It's just kids in the sandbox, remember? If Zeus hurls down a thunderbolt on them, guess which party is amiss.

No one has *ruined* anything. Storm in a D-cup :^)

A bit of early (U.S.) a.m. wordplay, and you and Nevermore go all Frodo-and-Sam...

Nevermore,

"I, for one, am willing to stick it out to the end! And, if I can convince Arminius, he will be with me!"

What happened to the *Simon-and-Garfunkel-Hello-Darkness-My-Old-Friend-Misery-Me-Sounds-Of-Silence* pact, mooted by Arminius? Over so soon?

Calm down, Not-So-Nevermore. You're starting to go all Shrillkilljoy with your barricade elan. What have you got against a bit of post-midnight wordplay, hmm?

No one is harmed. Anyone who wants to return to the infotainment gist can post whenever they like. If no one can be bothered anymore to discuss the core topic, what's the problem with a bit of banter? The gods of WAPO can delete it if it gets on their goat.

Or is all chitchat except Arminius' beer-and-chuckle verboten?

Daniel12, you said,

"But perhaps I neither understand woman nor an army with banners."

And you are right.

Farnaz1:

"It seems you have traveled quite a bit."

Yes, I've been very lucky. I've worked in Europe and the Middle East, and 'rest travel' was a freebie.

I was in Poland four years ago. Living in Austria with a lover. I had bought a car, and planned a trip to visit the deathcamps of Austria, Germany and Poland. So I took two weeks and made a long road-trip. Auschwitz I, Birkenau and Sobibor were among the places I visited in Poland. Poles are VERY skittish, a result I think of being occupied by the Russians for so long and so harshly.

Terrible as a woman with tassels. Interpretation by GK. Though he didn't say "tassels." Also, I'm not a MAN, nor does one have to be a sperm-shooter to read GK, all that's necessary for this
peni trating (s)(r)eeding.

To Arminius from Daniel. I think it quite unnecessary to state why woman is terrible as an army with banners for the simple reason that so much poetry and painting has celebrated woman in such a manner.

And actually woman really is not terrible as an army with banners--only so to the romantic imagination which often postulates woman at the foundation of the mystery of life. (Goethe's eternal feminine, Pater's view of the Mona Lisa which I believe someone here already mentioned).

It really is not up to anyone to explain why woman is terrible as an army with banners--except for those people that actually believe such. It is their task to explain why they believe so because to all too many people woman is not so...

In fact many people look askance at romantic notions such as a poet once entertained when he expressed amazement that his beloved, almighty, absolutely pure Celia sh*ts. In fact it is questionable that our poet actually loved Celia and not a ridiculous romantic image of her. For after all, what would Celia think if our poet would tell her that he is amazed that she sh*ts?

Would not our dear Celia be amazed in turn and say something like "you mean you actually believed I don't go to the bathroom like...you my dear lofty and so superior and absolutely pure poet?"

When thought about is it not an insult to compare a woman to an army with banners? Not least because why would a woman want to be compared to what is essentially a force of men on the kill?

But perhaps I neither understand woman nor an army with banners.

Doug White,

Re: Zlotys

It seems you have traveled quite a bit....When were you in Poland? One hears from emigres, of which there are more and more, that religion isn't what it once was there. Yet, one reads otherwise. Spires summon and spirits step up.

Nevermore,

I'm here, my friend.

Uh, Sorry, Arminius, butterfingers...of course that should have been intellectually!

Hey, Arminius, are you with me?

By the way, did you know that some people are so intelluectually deficient that they have to insult their fellow posters to built themselves up??? Don't worry about those, their will get their just desserts in the end!

OK, fellow posters! I think the time has come to take action!

Norrie, Moderate, Pagan Friends, Justillthen, Walter-in-FallsChurch, CouterWW, etc., come and help save what is left of Susan's blog. This used to be a great place to discuss and share ideas. Not any more!

No, CCNL, you are not invited! You have done all the damage you can do!

I, for one, am willing to stick it out to the end! And, if I can convince Arminius, he will be with me!

For crying out loud! Don't just desert a great blog because there are some who are intent on distroying it! Ignore the nincompoops and only respond to those who would would like to have a discussion with!

Come on guys and gals, show us what you are made of!

The only necessary response to Arminius The Tatooed Lady:

A stranger was seated next to a little girl on the airplane when the stranger turned to her and said, 'Let's talk. I've heard that flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.'

The little girl, who had just opened her book, closed it slowly and said to the stranger, 'What would you like to talk about?'

'Oh, I don't know,' said the stranger. 'How about nuclear power?' and he smiles.

OK, 'she said. 'That could be an interesting topic. But let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you suppose that is?'

The stranger, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence, thinks about it and says, 'Hmmm, I have no idea.'

To which the little girl replies, 'Do you really feel qualified to discuss nuclear power when you don't know s**t?

Hijacked again. This is the most absurd pseudo-intellectual mutual masturbation festival I have ever had the misfortune to witness. Mr Moderator, you could do the world a favor by deleting every post here, mine included of course. Susan Jacoby, I weep that this has happened here. Everybody else has left, and I can't muster enough support, although Nevermore is hanging tough.

This blog is becoming more and more idiotic by the moment, Susan!

Isn't time for a new subject yet?

Farnaz1:

"Zlotys? So, there must be a story...?"

No, no story. In Poland they are very happy to accept US currency for everything. They make change, however, in zlotys. I collected a lifetime supply. They are not worth much even in Poland, and NOBODY outside Poland wants them.

Selah!

I suspect this infotainment will be far-less-than-agreeable to bloglings of the morrow. Perhaps as welcome as a balalaika solo to la Grande Armée, après le pont du Berezina.

C'est la blogue (:^)

Selah?

Neither tsars nor SARS, for Sid.

May it always be stars, not tsars, for Sid.

Shorely, Sid seas stars...?

Surreally, that should be.

Yea, sureally, sure ally, and surely not shorely.

Sir Royal de Siduous

"Sidereal, no?"

Positively.

Seldom seen, Sid sidles swiftly. Soil steppers scarcely sense (Sid).

"Still, Sid's in the picture!"

Whew! Some say sensitve Sid sails surreptitious. (Blue whale, Sid.)

A new *revealed* religion - Sidism - founded on a plump-faced Seleukid monarch, martyred by perfidious Parthians, and resurrected as a prolifically erudite peripatetic poisson.

Correction, not Sidon, but Side in Pamphylia. Desolee.

Still, Sid's in the picture!

Fact: Antiochos VII (who came to terms with HP John Hyrcanus re walls of Zion and Seleukid suzerainty), whom our Parthian friend Phraates II worsted fatally via ambush, was surnamed 'Sidetes' - the Sidonian.

Sidereal, no?

In the original Sidian:

"Mi uzikhtu mai iyaz" ;-)

Sid is (a)muse(d). ===>>>>>>>>>>>>

More muse to you and amused by moi. :-)

"Leave the glyphs to the glyphers," sayeth Sid. (Sid 27:12)

...and idée-o-matic

Farnaz,

This in-Syd's id is iotic

(8^}

Call it far-fetched,
but at least one Parthian shooter fletched his darts while fetchingly draped
in lady's gauze below the beard,
Serapian sacred; phallus foregoing,
for a phalanx bannering bosom.

Farnaz:

Looked at the site, although I know nothing about ancient coins. Very interesting.

I have a sackful of zlotys I'd like to get rid of!

Doug White,

Once there was a great big giant fish named Sid, who divided his time between the Antartic and Florida (very cool at the time).

Sid was an aquatic jet setter, very smart, and charming when he wished to be.

With all his gifts, Sid resolved never to waste a single one on little fish. He knew there were those with bigger fish to fry.

And they were the scary ones. For them, he saved his energy.

In this way, Sid continues to live serene. He is off to play tennis this very moment, having just completed his eighth volume on the Fish: Idoms, Fables, and Gods.

This is a true story.

How very pathetic!!! Indeed!!!

Doug White,

Glad you enjoyed it! Study of ancient numismatic gender-bending underway. Have a look!

Farnaz

Just home from a preview screening of Angels & Demons.

MUST SEE! Best suspense movie I've ever seen. Runs rings around DaVinci Code.

Gave me an idea for a story: the Vatican, to protect and defend The Faith, acquires nuclear weapons and places Opus Dei in charge of them.

Made some adjustments and saw clearly from site you provided. Quite remarkable. Given the rarety, why did it sell for so little?

I wonder where one could see one close up.
Now, the question for when you have time: What is the significance?

Canmoose doesn't appear to have any Phraates II tetras in stock, which is understandable, since they are quite rare.

I should have written, anything near target?

Onofrio,

Interesting! A little hard to see, though.
Just found this. Anything worthwhile?

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/canmoose/store/pricelist.asp

And another:

http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=40122

Compare the fully female Tyche on the reverse of this one, of Artabanos the Younger:

http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=84770

Yes, Farnaz, spot on. The reverse of the 6th image, of Phraates II, shows the very deity I have in mind.

Another:
http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=94823

Hi Onofrio,

'tis you who must write a ghazal for us. Mine must be for my eyes only! :-)
You are the wordly one!

Here is a site displaying coins of the period you mention. Noticed one or two of the sort you describe. Are there any that appear to you to be "on target," so to speak?

http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/parthia/parthian.html

Farnaz

Hi Onofrio,

'tis you who must pen a ghazal for us. Mine must be for mine eyes only. :-)
You are the wordly one!

Farnaz

Arminius, the Parthian, und alles,

The deity on the reverse of some tetradrachms (large four drachma silver coins) of the Parthian king Phraates II (138-127 BC) depict what appears to be a transgender deity: a clearly female body, clothed in a woman's chiton; bearded male head, crowned with a kalathos (an attribute of both the Graeco-Egyptian god Serapis: fusion of Osiris, Hades, Zeus, and Dionysos; and of the Greek goddess Tyche: the 'fortune' or 'fate' of cities).
It's a bold attempt to evoke a truly pantheistic concept of deity.

Farnaz,

"It is a kind of spring, and in the weeks that come, I shall write a ghazal."

Yes, please.

O Parthian shooter,

Perhaps she of the banners is also a he! Shehe certainly has a lovely shape under the chiton...and the beard!

At least, that's what the coins of Phraates II, Parthian king (138-127 BC), suggest.

Although principally a nice contra-Calvinian moniker, Arminius is also the (latinised) name of the great German war leader responsible for the annihilation of Varus' three legions in the Teutoberger Wald, 9 BC.

So, Parthian, you annihilate clanking Romans in the dust of Carrhae with your (not-so-parting) shots, and in the legion-eating forests of Germania.

No claymores in sight.

Farnaz,

I got the ghazals. What wealth!

Thank you!

Terrible as an army with banners...Woman.

Yes, of course, Daniel12. But why?

Magnificent Rostam,

I will tell you now a secret of creation:

"She is older than the rocks among which she sits"

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/fa257/pater_mona.html

So deep was this truth buried that none could read it, neither Pater nor Yeats. But, then, they were of the West.

It is a kind of spring, and in the weeks that come, I shall write a ghazal.

Magnificent Rostam,

Why must one prefer? To try to decide among Ferdowski, Hafiz, and Galib would put me in a whirl(ing)! :-)

No coquette, I, unless a ghazal strolls past. I cannot flirt with Hafiz; he, in a sense, is gone. And, his greatest love was always Hafiz, a convention, much loved by me.

Ms.Splendid Coquetry,

Ferdowsi and Shaikh Galib I prefer.

Terrible as an army with banners...Woman.

Onofrio,

Yes, the Documentary Hypothesis. And now there's R, for Redactor. Now, not taken so much for hypothesis as for FACT. Too many strata spoil the single-author dream.

It is a Persian carpet you are weaving. The best looms are margin-placed. Degrees certify technicians. The wisest among them retire seek out the woods for debriefing.

I think one cannot now write of poetry on this thread, but I hope you have read Hafiz.

http://www.hafizonlove.com/divan/index.htm

Farnaz,
See what I mean re my obtusity? What a howler! :-) I didn't connect your J to the documentary hypothesis - my bad.

Yes, I recall reading about that once, years ago now - I think it may have been an interview/review. I also recall at the time thinking "must read that". One thing drives out another, etc.

(:^U

Farnaz,

Whence? Lingering on the margins of disciplines and discourses to which I can't contribute, but whose subjects fascinate.

A callow dupe enamoured of scraps from others' l'orientalisme. Desolee.

Adept in Pharaonic only, familiar with stray gobbets of vaguely cognate stuff - here a Baal, there a Sol Invictus.

What you perceive is the rug I've stitched out of all the rags. Not a patch on Persian masterpieces, but sort of colourful, nevertheless...

Onofrio,

You are very knowledgable, about ancient Egypt, Greece, NT, etc.

I should have made clear the "J" author Bloom writes of is the J of the hypothesized J, E, D, P group

Meant to write Middle Eastern. :)

Onofrio,

No flaneur, not a bit of it. But whence this knowledge of ancient scrolls, languages Near Eastern?

Farnaz,
Curator? I wish! Nothing of my ilk to curate down here, and what crumbs there be are jealously guarded by degree wielding demons...

Nope, my station is entry-level admin, cul-de-sac.

Un flaneur, moi.

The puppy sounds like a good idea :)

I have been known to wear a bra, O Arminius.

Jeez.

"So answer me this, and this is not something that Farnaz has a clue about: What exactly is the meaning of "Terrible as an Army with Banners"?
____________________________
Don't be ridiculous. Everyone familiar with the psalm and GK has a clue. It has nothing to do with DNA, RNA, sperm, and the like.

Something to do with Christianity, yes.

Good grief. Spare me. Drink a cuppa, or two, or three....

Arminius,

I'm feeling all 53 BC now, reeling like Crassus, as you wheel off into your sharp dust cloud. The Surena...

A *true* male? That would not be me, Arminius. Ain't no use pretending; stopped trying long ago.

My sole concession to *manliness* is a love of hard liquor. Oh, and beer. In my country, a love of poetry makes you *a poofter*, regardless of sexuality. But liquor and poetry together - well, that was highly honoured by certain ancient ancestors of mine...another world, not this one.

As for those *iron chains*. Reminds me of a lyric from an old song from down here called The Wild Colonial Boy, about a bushranging lad named Jack Doolan who had a shootout with the troopers and went down in a blaze of glory. The chorus ended with "For I scorn to live in slavery, bound down by iron chains."

I know, it's no exegesis of your banners and said metaphor...so I'll have to concede defeat to your reality and ruddy corpuscularity, O Parthian.

You may have to ditch the claymore; it impedes the gallop, and could jab your comrades as you wheel about to loose...

Onofrio,

"A testing time - do I have what it takes to prove I understand something? Jury's out."
++++++++++++++++++++++++
I suspect you have much, much more than it takes.

Onofrio,

My girl's seriousness is not so good, methinks. We don't exactly know what to do since we always thought we, at least, had a sense of humor. We've got to get some sillyness into her life.

We've been thinking of a puppy. I puppysat a spaniel named Chocolate, who gravitated to her immediately, and she did giggle and laugh. It is true that puppies and apartments don't go well together, but I fear there's nothing else for it.

I cannot believe you're not an academic. A curator? I guess you cannot say the kind of work you do. But I am glad we get to read your thoughts. :-)

Mefears the Arminius doth imbibe too much.
Condescention fits him ill, sniffs, snorts like one from Austin's quill.

Honesty? Honest debate? Desperation. Desperated bi*ching. Supersessionist victimology from the cups. A w(h)iny paradox.
-------------------------------
Ah, Truth is not beauty, nor is beauty Truth. There is much more you need to know on earth before you can even think on heaven.

Horsesfeathers, pass by.

Farnaz,
Yeah, we have the mutterfest hier. Not a great observer (nor of birthdays - very slack, me). Your day sounds a delight, though! Uncommon scents...

If only my girls were so *serious* as yours :-( More power to it, I say.

As for all the other stuff, I have no Koine, so the peri-testamental-scribble is all bottom drawer. Does come in handy, though, during razzias vs evangelical professors on blogs-of-the-agreed-upon-truth ;-)

As for the hypogea - I am, unlike you, a mere apprentice of academe, hacking out my first minor thesis from the sheer granite massif of my ignorance. A testing time - do I have what it takes to prove I understand something? Jury's out.

This Parthian horseman, fleeing the stupidity here, turns in his saddle, fits an arrow to his compound bow, and delivers a farewell shot to those pursuing him.

I seek honest debate here, but all I find is general new age groveling to false idols, pursuit of mindless thoughts, the bleached-blond, Paris Hilton equivalent of discussion.

I do not employ the 'F' word, Onofrio. I only ask that you free yourself - if indeed you have an individual identity - from the iron chains that you bear.

So answer me this, and this is not something that Farnaz has a clue about: What exactly is the meaning of "Terrible as an Army with Banners"?

If you are indeed a separate person, a true male, who loves women as I do - then the answer is embedded in your very DNA.

Wot say, mate?

I've reflected a lot on the notion that the original kerygma of *the resurrection* was from a woman/women, and that it was far simpler than the already embellished account that is found in the Gospels, even (or especially) in earliest Mark.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Have you published on this?
-----------------

"Deep into Nilotic hypogea at the moment...."

With an eye to...? Or, this fits in with...?

Can you say?

Onofrio,

I have to tell you, I do not "reek." This is even more the case due to my husband's having purchased an insanely expensive perfume for me for Mother's Day. This decision was inspired by the compliments I bestow upon my sister, who wears the scent, whenever we are together. Wasn't even aware I had been praising.

My daughter, for Mother's Day, presented me with a model demonstrating that water is heavier than lead, accompanied by three poems and two retellings of water-related myths.

I fear she is becoming her mother's daughter. Her father and I discussed this overly seriousness of our child. What to do.

Wonder from where she gets it.

A dumb question: Do you have Mother's Day down under?

Farnaz,

About female authorship of said J.

I've reflected a lot on the notion that the original kerygma of *the resurrection* was from a woman/women, and that it was far simpler than the already embellished account that is found in the Gospels, even (or especially) in earliest Mark.

Deep into Nilotic hypogea at the moment, so reading is all relentlessly booked-up and on-topic. But I have Bloom now on my to-nail-list :-)

Thanks!

Onofrio,

I once wrote a poem about the process by which the book became a man, and the man a book again. Something about sinews and codices...
Returning too to your comments about Markan scholarship: not really au fait with all the lit in the area, but I've read Mark carefully myself, and have developed some ideas of my own about the 'neaniskos', stripped naked and absconding at Jesus' arrest, then clothed at the *empty* tomb.
Angelloi and neaniskoi - initiates and abandoned garments - the *behind* and *within* of that tale are fascinating...
______________________________________
Wow! Would love to read all this, and suspect I'm not seul.

"Haram," you say, in another posting? Yes, indeed. Le mot juste.

The gods have blessed you wordly, Onofrio.

Methinks the Arminius does imbibe too much.

Nevermore,

"That is all I have to say to you."

That's a pity, Nevermore. You will find that I do not skewer unless hitherto provoked.

Arminius has only one response to anything I post - invective and the F card. This man decries the lack of debate, then pouts when called to account for his own assertions. It seems that the only acceptable response to Arminius is eulogy. Anything else will get...spray.

As for condescension, well, perhaps I am guilty there, if thus I seem. Touche.

Peace to you, and adieu.

Onofrio,

The Bloom book is quite a read. Wonder what you'd think of it. Posits that the "J" author was a woman.

Farnaz

Arminius,

By that I meant, don't waste your breath on those who have no clue.

You will never be able to have a civil conversation with uncivil people, now matter how well spoken/read they think they are.

There are those who have an agenda on these blogs and they will try to push it down everyone's throat not matter what. They spout and spout and spout, yet nothing of substance is coming across.

So, my friend, like the old Beatle song advises: "Let it be!"

Dear Nevermore,

The Sound of Silence is now our watchword. And may God bless Simon and Garfunkel!

Hello Darkness my old friend...

Arminius,

Let it be....every word is one to many!

"I once thought much of you. But your replies here prove my point with very sad thunder."

History repeating...read it all before. Last time, you quit in a fit of pique.

There's the door...

What? We’re just more clay
And bone for vulture’s play,
Croaking his ripe disdain
And griping of pain
As if his the shreds
He claws through matted threads.

Farnaz,

I have not read the Bloom book you mention, but have often reflected along the lines of the precis you give:

"He suggests calling the Tanakh, the Originary Testament, and the New Testament, the Belated Testament, which, he says attempts to replace a book with a man."

I once wrote a poem about the process by which the book became a man, and the man a book again. Something about sinews and codices...

Returning too to your comments about Markan scholarship: not really au fait with all the lit in the area, but I've read Mark carefully myself, and have developed some ideas of my own about the 'neaniskos', stripped naked and absconding at Jesus' arrest, then clothed at the *empty* tomb.

Angelloi and neaniskoi - initiates and abandoned garments - the *behind* and *within* of that tale are fascinating...

Onofrio,

I once thought much of you. But your replies here prove my point with very sad thunder. You positively STINK of Farnaz.

Yes, Onofrio, you do cause me grief because your post reveals much about you.

Namely, that you are condencending to other posters. You are taking their words out of context to malign them and, personally, I find that apprehensible.

That is all I have to say to you.

"You reek of Farnaz."

That's not an argument, Arminius. Funny how you tend to stoop to such invective when you're questioned.

It would seem your funky epsico colloquy operates with a sans Genesis Bible.

Or is that just you cherry-picking again?

Arminio-hermeneutic:
- prate of love and carry a big shtick
- when contra calls, dummy spit

How have I grieved thee, Nevermore?

I responded to Arminius' flights of enthusiastic scripture-dissing (his *own* scriptures, no less).

Is there something Haram about standing contra the Arminian wind?

Onofrio,

You reek of Farnaz.

Onofrio,

Disregard trolls. Their postings will be removed, along, in all likelihood, with this one.

Onofrio posted on Dixon's thread. Later, I did. He wrote to me, and I replied. Trolls and nonTrolls, alike, are welcome to read the comments.

ONOFRIO,

'Nuf said. The comment to this posting addresses itself merits no further attention.

The author is capable of writing substantively. If she does, great! If not, ignore.

Good plan?

Hi Onofrio,

Praise be unto!!!

Speaking of things biblical, have you read Harold Bloom's "The Book of J"?

I'd love to scan in the first page of the preface, just to heat things up a bit, this on a secondary note.

He suggests calling the Tanakh, the Originary Testament, and the New Testament, the Belated Testament, which, he says attempts to replace a book with a man.

Cynthia Ozick, who has no doubt read Bloom's book, would approve.

Well, well, well,

Farnaz calleth and Onofrio comes arunning...will wonders ever cease?

So Pseudo, are you stumbling behind as well?

Doug White,

Just received reply from query to Catholic Studies friend regarding passage you cite.
Tons of work has been done on the Gnostic Gospells, in general, as you, no doubt, know, and a great, great deal on the passage you cite.

Google brings up a heck of a lot. Also, a ton on academic library data bases, to which you may have access.

Friend is supervising a disseration on the Mark passage, suppression at Nicea, etc. Evidently, there is more Greco-Roman homosexuality than has heretofore been imagined in the Christian Testament.

Several articles in the Journal of Homosexuality.

Arminius,

You:
"The truth of our universe contains more awe, power, and beauty than those myth-generating bronze age dudes could ever conceive."

That was *their* universe as well as *ours*.

*Those* myth-generating bronze age *dudes* also generated the god whom your Jesus called Lord.

I thought you were his devoted follower.

Shame then to diss his god like that, all because of the clumsy scripturemongery of a few *creation scientists*.

Genesis cosmogony as myth (or rather counter-myth ;-) ) works just fine. What's wrong with myths per se anyway?

As for those bronze age dudes, if they're SO ignoramic, why do you still subscribe to their trajectory? And why kick their memory, just becaue they're beloved of theo-machinists. Should I kick dogs because Hitler had one?

What do they teach at that church of yours? Myth-free eucharistry?

"Sex from Plato to Paglia"
Allan Soble

Includes "sexuality" in the Bible.

About 1200 pages. Very pricy--four or five hundred dollars.

Available at many libraries.

Can be previewed at Google Books.

http://books.google.com/

So, Arminius, if the stories in Genesis conflict, wouldn't it stand to reason that other biblical stories also conflict?

If so, why do people believe in the biblical god?

No one, not a single blogger has ever explained to me why the bible was written by men, when the omni-powered god could created it in the blink of an eye. The believers call it the inspired word, well, if god had wanted to give us a word why not do so himself?

Also, all those weird PARABLES, what the heck was that about? If you have something to say, say it so that people don't have to guess what you mean. I mean, the modern day fairystory tellers, like the Grimms, Anderson, etc., did the same thing, but to be honest they are a heck of a lot easier to follow.

Come back, please, Onofrio.

Also,

Pseudo, Pseudo, Pseudo.

Sincerely,
Farnaz :)

Walter-in-fallschurch,

Agreed. I cannot comprehend how anyone with a brain above the sewer rat level can walk out on a starry night, see the stunning glory of God's creation, and then go in and accept the nonsense in Genesis. The truth of our universe contains more awe, power, and beauty than those myth-generating bronze age dudes could ever conceive. Not to mention that Genesis has two separate creation stories which do conflict.

Arminius2,
agreed. i have always thought the real creation story - as told by scientists - is MUCH more awe-inspiring than the ancient mesopotamian version.

You know, Arminius,

I re-read Susan's essay and she says:

"In The Age of American Unreason, I titled one chapter "The Culture of Distraction." By that I mean the constant stream of video and audio, online and offline, that has wrecked our capacity for concentration and our desire to think for ourselves. We are now continuously interrupted by loud noise and dumb images that enable us, for the first time in human history, to be bombarded by junk 24 hours a day, 7 days a week"

Kind of reminds me of these blogs at times. 24/7 junk by some!

Hi Arminius,

The ggod minds were probably frustrated with the ongoing blather and disappeared.

So it goes! It's sad, but true.

Persiflage said:

"So it goes with mystery posters and their agenda........
You're a genuine person and that comes through in your posts....the days of one true identity do seem to be fading fast.
You're a good man - others that differ will deal with me."

I second that, wholeheartedly!!!

Hi, Nevermore,

Yup. One-sided. Almost as if they were talking to themselves. Have we not seen this before? Where are the good minds?

Hmmm...Conversation has become pretty one-sided once again!

Oh, well....maybe another time!

Farnaz1

"Susan Jacoby: Still an essentialist in some ways, a single-system seer. Monocultural. A liberal unknown citizen.

Sometimes, writes a good essay. Maybe, has an okay heart."

Hmmmm. Seems a bit 'self-oriented', shall I say with charity.

Hello, Walter-in-fallschurch,

To this believer, science is a glorious and ever-fascinating celebration of God's beautiful Creation. So much more wonderful, strange, even mysterious, than the bronze-age mythos presented in two versions in the Hebrew scriptures.

If you are still around here, this might be worth pursuing.

The following recommendation was inspired by M. Schmaltz's essay on this blog.

National Rorty Day

To be read in advance: Rorty. "Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature" (1979)

Farnaz1:

"Do you know how Cleaver's life turned out?
Religion is a curious thing.

Have you read Singer, "Satan in Goray"? If not, I wonder what you would think of it."

Yes, I followed Cleaver's life rather closely, except when he fled to Africa, I think it was, and there was no news about him until he got into a fight with Timothy Leary.

No, I've never read Singer. I'll add that to my be-on-the-lookout list.

A friend of mine, who is a retiring Episcopal bishop, and therefore moving into much smaller quarters, is giving away his library to his friends. I went over last evening to pick out things I want, and found a copy of Jacoby's "Age of American Unreason" -- which I snapped up. Now if I can just make the time to read all the books I came home with. Got a lot of stuff on the Gnostic gospels, which have always fascinated me. They tell quite a different story about Jesus. There is also a previously concealed verse:
the full text of St. Mark chapter 10 (between verses 34 and 35 in the standard version of the Bible) includes the passage:
"And the youth, looking upon him (Jesus), loved him and beseeched that he might remain with him. And going out of the tomb, they went into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days, Jesus instructed him and, at evening, the youth came to him wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God".

I can't imagine why THAT was suppressed by the council at Nicea!

Arminius2, you said,
"Some of us believers have no problem with those results [of the scientific method]."
____________________________

well, that's excellent. i know too many religious people who "throw out" science when the results disprove (for all practical purposes) a literal reading of the bible.

Doug White,

Yes, I've read the book. Always wondered if Wiesel was thinking of Cleaver's "Soul on Ice."

Do you know how Cleaver's life turned out?
Religion is a curious thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldridge_Cleaver

Have you read Singer, "Satan in Goray"? If not, I wonder what you would think of it.
___________
Doug White,

I can see from some of the angles in which you see. Only some. I think maybe you have a lot to contribute to this thread. Some things can just be allowed to float out to sea.

I don't have to reply to every blogger or take things personally. The political is personal. The rest is nonsense, no?

Identity is fleeting, from moment to moment.

Sometimes, I sit back and observe things pass. I am not wise, Doug White. These are just some things I noticed.

Not having been here for the recently fought identity wars(?) I can only infer from current comments about the prevalence or not of idiots on this board.

Without rancor or accusation, though, I notice current comments that remind me of the old story of the Quaker man who told his wife, "You know, Sadie, I think the whole world is crazy except for me and thee -- and sometimes I wonder about thee."

:-)

Oh, yeah, Nevermore -

You are absolutely right about the Pagans. A finer group I never met. As I have told them many times, I wish they were my neighbors.

Nevermore,

Let's get this straight once and for all: I respect everyone's right to believe or not to believe. And I resent anyone, believer or not, who tries to impose their dogma, whether religious or not, on me.

Indeed the gummint (a Pogoism) has no right to allow any religious expression. On the other hand, the last company I worked for had a good policy on that. No open religious marketing was allowed, either spoken or pamphlets. But a group could hold a bible study in the lunch hour. So could a group of agnostics/atheists hold their meeting. Also, there was a strong group there of gay/lesbian, with the full approval of the company. This, I think, is a great expression of freedom.

But, again, back to the topic....I think that no government official, President, Senator, Congressman, or even any federal employee should ever proclaim any prayer, Christian or otherwise.

Having worked in the second largest federal building in Washington, DC for a number of years, I can tell you firsthand that there are many who would/will coerce their co-workers into some kind of religion. They left pamphlets on desks, in the rest rooms, in the cafeterias, etc. Yet the Administration allowed all of that and even let employees have conference rooms to hold their prayer meetings. What the ??????

It is unconstitutional and it slaps every American who does not believe in a divine being in the face.

I, like the rest of the agnostic world, pay taxes, help my neighbors, give to charity, and I should not be told by my elected officials, co-workers, or neighbors that I should pray to a god I do not believe in.

Arminius, I respect every person's right to believe as they wish (unless they force their beliefs on me or mine).

The most tolerant people on these blogs are the Pagans, they seem to grasp what others don't. "Do as you wish, harm none!"

Nevermore,

God is Love, and God is the Light, and God is the Word.

God has no gender, it is a null term when applied to God.

Night is the absence of the sun, and night is beautiful. As is day.

Perhaps evil is the absence of Love.

"yes, as the kids say - the scientific method totally rocks! the problem for believers is it leads to results they don't like."

Some of us believers have no problem with those results.

Oh, Arminius,

You call it God and Love, I call it IT and Light...

No so very different. I just chose not to call IT God...

You know Arminius, the light is love, because without light there would be no life on this earth. However, I am not so sure that without love there would be no life on this earth.

On the other hand, maybe they are intertwined...love and light!!!

But where does that leave evil and darkness? I see no evil in darkness, it is just the absence of light.

daniel,
yes, as the kids say - the scientific method totally rocks! the problem for believers is it leads to results they don't like...

Nevermore,

If you don't need religion, that's fine. No problem. You don't need the teachings of my belief to know about 'Love your neighbor as yourself'.

And as to this that you said: "I believe there is somthing out there, but it can not communicate with as because it has no sense of time/space/our reality/etc."

Well, it communicated with me, and God is Love, and He is with you, and with me. I'm NOT preaching! I just know this, I can say it, it is true to me, but I cannot prove it. You are just as hugely decent a person with or without this spiritual thing.

Arminius,

I do not need a church to be "we and we", agnostics/atheists are quite capable of being "we and we".

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you have compassion for your fellow human beings, the flora and fauna, then religion is not needed.

I have that compassion without the God or the Christ of the mysterious book called the Bible.

I believe there is somthing out there, but it can not communicate with as because it has no sense of time/space/our reality/etc.

It IS, but were are not created in its image, nor are we obliged to worship it. It simply is, as are we.

Good Lord, Nevermore,

If your opinion of Christianity is based upon video preachers, then you are badly misled!

My priest is a woman, as is the deacon. Finer people you could not find. The parish is a community of people who are there to celebrate, yes celebrate!, the Love of God. I have NEVER heard a 'hellfire and damnation' sermon, and if I ever did, I would walk out and never look back. It is all about inclusion of everyone, because Christ came for us all. Love, not fear. Joy, not hatred. It's not us and them, it's WE and WE.

Oh, well, Arminius....the way I see it, idiots abound in this world of ours, at least we are not them!

Hi, Dear Gaby,

Thank you for hitting that proverbial nail on its head. We must ignore that sad cabal of narcissistic idiots.

Arminius,

Well, it is fortunate for you that your preacher, reverend, or whatever you call you clergy(wo)men are more advanced than most.

As you well know, I do not attend church, but occasionally tune into the TV clergy, thus I arrive at my conclusion. The general religious populace seems to be so enamoured by the all wise clergy(wo)man, that they no longer seem to think or question. Which in my opinion is very sad.

A real leader asks people to question and to think for themselves.

Hello Arminious,

Do not despair, my friend, eventually these sad people will disappear.

Like Susan said, we are wasting out time trying to implicate them, shut them up, ot otherwise.

I know it is very hard to just ignore them, but that is my resolve from now on. Maybe we can win this blog back again.

People like ..... ..... ..... .... .... are not worth our time, respect, or even counteraction. He/she/it is a worthless instigator of hatefulness and will get his/her/its just rewards in the end.

So, let's get on with the discussion at hand and no longer worry about the trolls.

Gaby

Hi, Nevermore,

Thanks for getting back on the subject.

You said,
"Preachers no longer just preach, they SHOUT from their pulpits, and the faithful scream back, "AMEN, AMEN!""

Well, many preachers do. The priests that I know do not do that. They speak of the Word of God, which is Love.

The behavior of a true Christian was summed up by St Francis: "Preach the Gospel every day of your life, but use words only when necessary."

Walk the walk, and keep the talk to a bare minimum.

Susan,

"Let us pray? How about an invocation that goes, "Let us shut up so that we can hear ourselves think." "

That will never, ever happen in America...people have forgotten what it means to sit back and reflect. We have become a nation that cannot live without noise, be it from the TV, the radio, the Blackberry, etc. We are constantly bombarded (and strangely enough like it) with voice, text, e-mail, and whatever messages.

Preachers no longer just preach, they SHOUT from their pulpits, and the faithful scream back, "AMEN, AMEN!"

But do they really mean it?

Frankly, I doubt it!

Hi, Dear Friend Gaby,

Nice to have some good support here!

A year ago, the threads moderated by Susan were a wonderful collection of jewels, a four-part weave of reason, faith, debate, and friendship. Contrast that with the crap here now, all too much puerile insults and name-calling. No thought, no offered hand, no debate, simply statement of something meaningless and the following slam on anyone who dares offer a contrasting opinion. Welcome to the pre-school sandbox fight.

Arminius2 wrote:

"I recognize your style. You are the main reason this thread is moribund. The sad thing is that you are quite happy about this. Sick."

Temper, temper little man. Your GIJoe action figure personality, and your John Wayne 'style' -- never impressive -- are coming unraveled. Maybe you should look into an anger management program.

Everyone,

You would do well to listen to Arminius!

Seems he is one of the true blue people, unlike some others I could name, but shall not, based on Susan's warning.

The Moderate, Persiflage, etal., you have been around for a very long time as have I. It is more than unfortunate that certain individuals are hell bent to destroy a good thing just to get their "jollies" off.

I hope all of you persevere in the face of adversity. Sooner of later this nincompoop, whoever it may be, will tire of his/her gabarge (ok, I am dreaming) and will leave the rest of us alone to have a decent discussion.

Gaby

Er, Persiflage,

I got your paragraph about being an air traffic controller mixed up with my post. Please accept my apologies. The 'Preview' button must be remembered.

Persiflage,

First, I thank you for two of the only really decent posts I have seen here for a long time. At last, somebody has made me think, instead of just pissing me off.

We were on opposite sides of the globe during that unfortunate disagreement in Southeast Asia some decades ago. I was, you may remember, in West Berlin, then an occupied city. I did meet a guy who had worked for a time in the major morgue in Saigon. He didn't have much to say for it, except that he knew an old sergeant there who had gone insane because he kept finding bodies of his friends. That was a sobering thought.

A few - but not too many - libations can free the mind and spirit from time to time.

On the othe hand, I worked as an air traffic controller at what was at the time the busiest airport in the world - I have tales to tell. And let us not go into the 'collateral damage' nightmare.

Space-time coordinates change constantly. Reason is slippery, and truth is flexible. Personal experience is, well, personal. Absolute Reality has touched me, and yes, I did not see it, I only experienced a small part of it. And of course it can neither be proved nor explained.

Arminius - my curiosity with space and the universe actually goes back to sitting outside the Airman's Club in Saigon - gazing up at the sky and wondering about such a vista - of course there may have been a few draughts before that seminal moment. I do remember this event with some clarity.

On the othe hand, I worked as an air traffic controller at what was at the time the busiest airport in the world - I have tales to tell.

The bodies of the dead from unnecessary circumstances are well documented but rarely mentioned. I personally saw piles of caskets lined up on the runway ever day that I went to work - some of the 55,000 Americans that were killed in that war.

What I didn't see were the bodies of the Vietnamese that were killed in that same war - upwards of 1 million.

I'm not an expert at anything whatsoever - we have to rely on personal experience for any knowledge that we may have - and I refer back to DITLD for that deep and very true observation.

In my view, the only truth we can refer to is relative and conditional truth - unless you are graced with a full view of unconditional reality....even then, it won't be something you saw, but something you experiencedl

Well, Persiflage,

You are a complex person, and I like to believe a good one too. You do write a very literate post.

Reality is the future? Say what?
"Yesterday is gone. Tomorrow is not yet here. We have only today. Let us begin."
- Mother Teresa

And, on a more cheerful note:
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Ben Franklin

On the other hand, maturity develops, ebbs, and flows.

Accusing, name-calling, teaming up is childish, brought us, along with the other nonsense to a period declared past by Susan.

I, for one, would like it to be that way and stay that way. Bloggers who have nothing better to do than complain about the thread are advised to blog elsewhere.

If they have comments of substance to make, then they should make them.

The past is the present is the future. Unless there is justice. A rarity.

Of course, I do not eat sin. I much prefer pizza.

Arminius - despite the fact that you are at least 6 months older than myself, we are at this very moment sharing a Yuengling! I'm a Black and Tan fan, myself. Not only that, but we're (physically) separated by mere hours - being just East of you in Columbia, SC. Age-wise, I turned 21 in Vietnam - in 1965.

On the other hand, if we consider the quantum mechanical ([physics) fact of non-locality, we are actually together in time and space, hoisting these brewskies simultaneously at this very moment!

Not something that our Scots/Irish forebearers considered overly much, but the fact is, the Druids understood the truth of non-local time/space intuitively, and travelled in timeless realms (as all mystics are wont to do). Our Wiccan friends will attest to this fact.

My past experiences in East Tennessee are memorable, but must remain undeclared.

I sometimes think of the tradition of sin-eating in Ireland - (poor) people made a living by being sin eaters, and were paid with food and money for absorbing the sins of the dead in a ritualistic manner. This is a curious recognition of karma, if you think about it. This supposedly expedited the process of a soul's travel to heaven - thereby missing purgatory altogether (of course this is a Catholic tradition).

Anyway, some posters here are taking on the role of sin eaters, and of course we know logically the futility of this effort - the past is dead. The future is the only reality. Imagining that one can actually influence the outcome of even the next moment is not only absurd, but tiresome - what a monumental waste of one's time!!

So it goes with mystery posters and their agenda........

You're a genuine person and that comes through in your posts....the days of one true identity do seem to be fading fast.

You're a good man - others that differ will deal with me.

Persiflage,

I am drinking a Yuengling lager, nice brew.

The problem here is not one of buzzards. Actually, those carrion crunchers are rather lovely in the air. What we have here is an invasion of liars, hiders, cowards, two-faced back-stabbers - a pack of rabid hyenas. Susan's thread is not just dying, it is being brutally murdered.

Doug White,

I recognize your style. You are the main reason this thread is moribund. The sad thing is that you are quite happy about this. Sick.

Arminius - we haven't chatted directly for quite a while - I think the last time was in regard to beer ... for which we share a mutual fondness.

It is surely a spiritual liqueur, designed personally by the creator (through the office of angelic representatives) to bring all of our belligerent selves closer together. But of course, it's a double-edged sword - the yin and yang of of it, don't you know?

My own Celtic ancestors are creating quite a din in the background - they say leave off with the dull roar of ill-intentioned individuals. I can't disagree.

I've enjoyed your presences over the last couple of years, and being a discerning individual, you also see the deterioration of the blog from the glory days.

So it goes - malignant forces invade every enterprise.....buzzards are a necessary part of life my friend.

All is good, and the One Mind is still the...

If we have a national day for prayer--instruction to all on how to petition the lord by such--we should also have a day for a different method, which, depending on one's belief gets one in contact with nature or God: The scientific method. In fact arguably the scientific method is the most required method of all methods in today's world what with the entire technological apparatus of Western civilization dependent on it. Certainly we should be able to set a day aside for science.

Civilius:

Excellent post! Thank you. I'd only qualify your use of the term "Judeo-Christian" as there is nothing "Judeo" either in Christianity or in National Prayer Day.

Let us also remember that this same proclaimer, about whom I otherwise have feel nothing but respect and a sense of gratitude, organized, during his campaign, pray-er fests across America, to include a dial and pray option.

It's been disturbing to see social conservative commentators insulting Obama b/c he chose to issue a proclomation rather than an ostentatious, cartoon-like display which Bush engaged in.
Those on the right & in Republican Party who claim our nation is a Judeo-Christian Nation are underming basic premises of our Democracy...namely that government authority is derived from consent of the governed, not from God...it's obvious pols will become increasing unaccountable to the citizenry if this misguiding notion that government authority is derived from God.
Presidential sanction religious worship is worthy of a theocracy, not a liberal democracy

Hi, Moderate,

"Anything worth reading going on here these days?"

Not really. I have pretty much lost interest. The dynamic is gone.

Arminius:

Anything worth reading going on here these days?

doug white, you said:
"A man who places his innocent children in a room with a blazing fire before them, and admonishes them "No, no...do not touch" and who returns later expecting to find those children unharmed is exactly analagous to the story of god placing adam and eve in a garden containing a tree of ripe fruit, saying "no, no, this is not for you" and returning later in the expectation of finding that his creation has not touched the fruit of that tree."
-------------------------------------

that is so true. i have often argued that adam and eve WERE NOT EQUIPPED to make moral decisions. by definition, if they did not have "knowledge of good and evil", then they could not make any kind of decisions about "good and evil". judeochrislamics consider the apple affair (i know IF anything like this ever happened, it wasn't an apple...but that's the common conception) as man's "original sin" and our "fall from grace" and so on.

without "knowledge of good and evil" moral behavior is impossible. a fish cannot be moral or immoral. i would argue that the "apple affair" should be seen as the BEGINNING of moral behavior. it should be seen as (an entirely allegorical) lesson that the knowledge of evil butdens us with the responsibility to try to be good.

Doug White,

All of the Jewish Concentration Camp narratives, all of the survivers I've interviewed, regardless of whether or not they were observant, indifferent, atheists or agnostics, attributed suvival to one thing: luck, chance. So said Levi, Wiesnthal, Wiesel.

Even the known Jewish communists, who were usually aided by the Catholic and Lutheran communists (political prisoners), had to depend on luck, because they were Jews.

Twenty-five thousand Roma were slaughtered at Auscwitz in a single night. Wiesenthal advocated for the Roma until he died. I interviewed two survivors who lived through that night. One said: "I lived, but I did not survive."

Doug White,

I taught at a Jesuit University for several years. I wish I could say more about this. It was a very enlightening experience.

I recall an eminent philosopher, quite well known. He refused the provost's request for funding a project that involved academic support, arguing that if students needed this sort of help, they did not belong at the University.

In despair, the Provost suggested I write to this Vice President directly. I wrote him as plainly as possible about the circumstances (not good, very bad) of the students who needed help. This was a very unsophisticated missive, a cry of the heart to the heart.

I was beside myself, didn't know what to do, was certain he'd think me an idiot, hired as a result of poor screening.

Much to the shock of the provost and yours truly, he not only authorized the funding, but gave us significantly more than the pittance for which I asked.

In the future, when requests were made that involved me, he would write to me directly, type letters (type, literally) in his own hand.

Doug White,

Actually, throwing themselves down the stone steps of the "Steps Of Death" was a common method of suicide at Mathaussen.

I did not know this. I have to rethink this whole matter of Levi's possible suicide, and have duly made a note to my self.

The thing is that although he never recovered from Auscwitz (no one ever recovered from Auswitz), in the months preceding his death, he was under great, great stress from other matters. His mother was gravely ill, and he was devoted to caring for her himself.

He treasured his daughter, and they were alienated from one another at the time of his death. Letters to friends suggest despair, muted, though, as was characteristic of Levi.

It was a terrible thing, his death, a dreadful, dreadful thing.

"Survival in Auswitz" is worth reading. It's very difficult for people who haven't read these narratives to comprehend them, literally. His is especially dense.

It was rejected by many publishers. Natalia Guinzburg said she literally couldn't understand it. I believe she was speaking the truth.

It is a kind of pastiche, high modernist in some ways. Brilliant, horrible. Refuses to take any easy ways out, refuses to accept that "underneath the veneer of civilization, we are all brutes," etc.

Went in an atheist. Went out the same way.
Nothing, no one is spared in this narrative.

I had to stop teaching it for awhile. I found it unbearable, as did the students.

No prayer has ever been heard or rewarded. A prayer, at best, may be a passionate definition of somebody's wishes. Granted this may even have a comforting effect for the praying person.

The millions of prayers in war on each side demonstrate the absurdity of prayer. Germans, of course, prayed by the millions to win the world war II. They prayed to the same god as did the inmates of Auschwitz. A prayer to a "god" being asked to side with some personal or group interest actually is an effective proof of the non-existence of any god: If he existed in his "omnipotence" and "almightiness", he couldn't be corrupted or bribed (by definition!). By praying you unconsciously prove and accept his non-existence!

Farnaz writes:

"At first, I doubted the suicide notion. People don't kill themselves by throwing themselves downstairs. "

Actually, throwing themselves down the stone steps of the "Steps Of Death" was a common method of suicide at Mathaussen.

"If This Is A Man" sounds very familiar...I was educated, undergraduate and graduate school, by Jesuits, and I can't begin to remember all the things they made us read! (I do remember being required to read "Phenomenon of Man" though...one of my favorite books).

I will make an effort to find this book again...it seems so familiar to me.

Doug,

Primo Levi was a great writer and thinker. "If This Is a Man," crazily translated here as "Survival in Auswitz" is a Holocaust narrative, a memoir. It is a masterpiece. Also, very much worth reading is "The Drowned and the Saved." See, especially, letters from Germans. These are authentic letters written to Levi, from Germans.

He entered the death camp an atheist and left an atheist. If you decide you want to read "Survival," I can recommend some secondary sources.

It is brilliant, peerless, merciless. Agonizing. Here was an Italian, a humanist par excellence, with no Jewish education, a man who valued culture, work, all that human could create, placed in a universe that reversed creation.

Levi may or may not have committed suicide.
At his death, antisemitic Italy, went into shock and mourning. Elie Wiesel wrote of him, "He died in Auswitz forty years later."

Hard to know. At first, I doubted the suicide notion. People don't kill themselves by throwing themselves downstairs. But more information surfaced throughout the years about the bouts of depression, the terrible stress during those last few months.

After the Holocaust narratives, he wrote poetry, short stories, etc., having nothing to do with the Holocaust. Another masterpiece was "The Periodic Table." Levi was a chemist before Auscwitz. "The Periodic Table," highly influential wed literature and science.

Much of his work has that deep philosophical resonance that characterizes Northern Italian letters.

LetUsRatiocinate wrote:

"Pray, v. : To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy." ~ Ambrose Bierce"

You have discovered a profound definition of prayer. My compliments.

Justtillthen:

"hello Doug_White,

You seem to make the judgment of the non-existence of God based on your perception that God did not respond to prayers made for salvation from persecution."

Not at all. I conclude the non-existence of god from the lack of evidence for his existence, the lack of NECESSITY for his existence, and from his lack of response to the critical needs and appeals of his creation which, supposedly, he loved. God is an illogical supposition proposed by people who are afraid...people who are overwhelmed by the fear of not existing after death. A man who places his innocent children in a room with a blazing fire before them, and admonishes them "No, no...do not touch" and who returns later expecting to find those children unharmed is exactly analagous to the story of god placing adam and eve in a garden containing a tree of ripe fruit, saying "no, no, this is not for you" and returning later in the expectation of finding that his creation has not touched the fruit of that tree. It is sadistic, manipulative, destructive, unreasonable, un-parent-like, and not the behavior of one whom I am expected to believe is omniscient and omnipotent. The story simply does not make sense. Who the hell would want a 'father' as irresponsible as that! I certainly don't. I have no expectations of god. Therefore, I am rarely disappointed in his behavior...or lack thereof.

Farnaz:
"Doug,

Have you read Primo Levi?"

No, I have not. Tell me what I've missed.

Justtillthen:

"That does not make God a criminal. Criminals make the offense and break the laws. God may just be letting us live our lives how we choose."

I would venture to guess that very few humans choose to live their lives in concentration camps, in imminent danger of torture, punishment, gassing, cremation, extinction.... One thinks of biblical promises to "ask and you shall receive", even of the Christ's prayer to "let this cup pass from me"...he was, after all according to the christer legends, God incarnate...why would he have prayed such a prayer if he did not believe that he could be delivered from his fate. Even the conclusion of that prayer, "thy will not mine be done" suggests that he was fully cognizant that god is in ultimate control, even unto torture and death.

Now...what was your question again?

Doug,

Have you read Primo Levi?

hello Doug_White,

You seem to make the judgment of the non-existence of God based on your perception that God did not respond to prayers made for salvation from persecution. If there was no clear blinding light of salvation then God does not exist because that is what 'He' should have done. How do you make that assumption?

I believe in prayer, and that prayer does get answered, though not always as I looked for. I also make the assumption that God does not intervene in what we deem to manifest in our lives. I do not think that God is there to save us from ourselves, or from those that act as our persecutors. That is our job and those that live in this manifest world.

It is not for God, (assuming of course that entity exists!), to intervene in what we dreamed into being.

That does not make God a criminal. Criminals make the offense and break the laws. God may just be letting us live our lives how we choose.

"Let us pray?"

How about, "Let Us Ratiocinate?"

Ratiocination, n. : The process of exact thinking; reasoning; A reasoned train of thought. ~ Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition

"Pray, v. : To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy." ~ Ambrose Bierce

More good would be accomplished, Susan, by your No Infotainment Day than has ever been accomplished (outside the minds of the pray-ers) by the sum total of all the prayers ever uttered. Let's do it.

Farnaz:

"National Puppies Day."

Oh, I like that!

One has only to spend a couple of days at Auschwitz and Birkenau to realize the futility of a National Day of Prayer. Think of the countless millions of prayers that were offered there, at every hour of the day, only to remain unanswered. If there is a god, he/she is the worst of criminals.

National Yogurt Day sounds good. Also, National Fruit and Vegetables Day. National Fresh Air Day. National Clean Water Day. National Look up at the Stars Day. National Tofu Day.

National Tiny Little Fish Day. National Trees Day. National Birdies Day. National Puppies Day. National Kittens Day.

Nationa Sun Day. National Moon Day. National Please Let's Not Destroy It All Day.

Farnaz:

"It's the separation of church and state I'd like to see implemented. It's long overdue, IMHO."

Agreed.

This national Prayer Day has been going on for neigh onto 200 years. See the article at the link I posted. Frankly, I don't care who prays when and with whom. It's the separation of church and state I'd like to see implemented. It's long overdue, IMHO.

Farnaz wrote:

"I want to support them in their law suit to end this historic Day of Pray-ers. (Prey-ers?)"

Actually, I have no objection to a national day of prayer. For those who find this meaningful, great. What I do object to is this being a day observed as a result of government proclamation, especially since nobody has agreed upon the god/goddess to whom the prayers are being offered. So far as I am concerned there can be a National Day of Prayer -- established, advertised by, and concurrently suppported by all faiths, christers, islamists, jews, mithraians, jovians...whatever. Just don't establish the day by government/presidential proclamation, because I don't believe there is a god. Only a creator. And I'm not altogether certain that even she is stable.

Doug White,

Thanks for the link. I visited the site. I wonder where this organization stands in relation to other secularist organizations. I want to support them in their law suit to end this historic Day of Pray-ers. (Prey-ers?)

Freedom from religion in government--a thing devoutly to be wished. As far as I'm concerned people should be free to believe whatever they wish, organize how they please around this, that or the other gods--only sans nonprofit status, outside of the political domain.

In short, leave me and my secular citizenship alone. I am what Noah Feldman aptly dubs a "legal secularist." Religion is a private matter, like raquetall, which I've always loved, but for which I have little time.

If we are to continue with this idiotic Pray-er Day, how about equal time for Raquetball Afficionados? Let us all play one four-wall for the eternal.

Farnaz

I suppose "Amazing Grace" should be the national Christian hymn, and "Silent Night" should be the national Christmas Carol.

These are the favorites of the great fanatical "unchurched experts" who claim Jesus as their best friend but let the weeks and the months and the years slip by, without every going to Church; you know the type, the MISS CALIFORNIA type, no offense to anybody.

I am not exactly sure what is the purpose of the "National Day of Prayer." Could it just as easily be "National Yogurt Day" or the "National Day of Health Care Workers?"

As far as I am concerned, people can pray or not pray. So what? Do we need an Act of Congress about it? And if wwe have one, do we have to slug it out all the way to the Supreme Court to stamp it out?

I would rather proscecuting torture, instead.

Actually, I found the Freedom From Religion Foundation site:

http://ffrf.org/

Farnaz1:

"The Obama administration has asked a judge to dismiss a lawsuit filed by the Freedom From Religion Foundation"

There is a Freedom From Religion Foundation??? We have a group of our own now? Great. Any idea how to contact them?

An informative article. In addition to information on the lawsuit, this piece also gives a brief history of the "Day."

"Obama plans a scaled back National Day of Prayer"

"The debate over the day has landed in federal court in Wisconsin. The Obama administration has asked a judge to dismiss a lawsuit filed by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which claims the day violates the separation of church and state."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/06/AR2009050602403.html

I cannot imagine anyone taking a "National Day of Prayer" seriously. It is just something those "old Lady" Republican "clolset-cases" have dreamed up (not that there is naything wrong with being an old Lady).

Obama is an inteligent and serious person. Obviously, he does not give a rat's posterior about such a silly thing, but he is bowing to the precedent, at least partially. We will see what he does about this next year, and the year after that, and the year after that.

on Christ the solid rock I stand
all other ground is sinking sand.

Arminius:
"A National Day of Dispensation, huh? OK...."

And Pagans will proselytize!

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/05/09/funny-pictures-some-time-to-talk-about-ceiling-cat/

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/06/09/funny-pictures-scratchtower-magazine-4-u/

"Which, ultimately, will mean nothing. Evangelical fundamentalists, like Islamic fundamentalists, won't -- CAN'T -- reconcile or be reconciled.

This is what may, ultimately undo the Republican party for years to come."

Doug, that is so true. And we are seeing it happen every day in the news.

I think President Obama would like to be as inclusive to all as he can be. Given the limitations of the evangelicals, I think he is making a futile attempt, but i do think it benefits him politically with his more moderate fellow citizens.

I love the idea of "Let us shut up so that we can hear ourselves think."

And thanks for the more restrictive rules for posting. It is much appreciated.

Shawn Cromett

Shawn Cromett

Farnaz1Mansouri1:

"Obama is a reconciler"

Which, ultimately, will mean nothing. Evangelical fundamentalists, like Islamic fundamentalists, won't -- CAN'T -- reconcile or be reconciled.

This is what may, ultimately undo the Republican party for years to come.

I hope.

I would much prefer a proclamation endorsing a "National Day of Reflection and Quiet"--an occasion on which Americans would be urged to turn off their television sets and computers, put away video games, and spend face-to-face time with those they love.
----------------------------------------
Obama is a reconciler, better, I'm sure, than being a polarizer. I am also grateful that unlike his predecessor, he has not proclaimed "Christ Day" or called for the rebirth of his party in the Son of God or discovered there were weapons of mass destruction in the Virgin Islands.

That said, coming from a quasi-theocratic state, I am repelled, sickened by this Religion Mania. Organizations devoted to secularism would do well to start promoting their agendas big time. Raise funds, deliver "inspirational" sixty-second radio messages, hold and widely publicize conferences and events, get into the public welfare and de-conversion business--inter-related.

Surfeited and sickened am I. Ick, I say, and yuck.

Make it go away.

A national day of prayer is contrary to the teachings of Christ (which makes it an anti-Christian activity) because Christ said that one should go into his closet and pray humbly and alone.

Christers can't have it both ways.

robinlandseadel,
no doubt - tom paine was a "mofo"... tells it like it is.

susan mentioned she prefered jefferson's approach to religion in government. his good buddy james madison was "one of us" (disestablishmentarians) too. remember all that hubub last year(?) about the ceremonial opening prayer at congress? remember how rep. bill sali (r-idaho, evangelical) got all bent out of shape because after about 30,000 consectuive christian prayers, congressmen had to hear a hindu prayer...? sali tried to stop it and said things like, "that’s a different god" and ominously, that it "creates problems for the longevity of our country."

it turns out madison would have agreed with sali that the prayer should not have been allowed - but for entirely different reasons. madison was against even having congressional/military chaplains and their prayers ANYWHERE NEAR government functions.

from madison's "detached memoranda":
"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation.

“The establishment of the Chaplainship to Congress is a PALPABLE VIOLATION OF EQUAL RIGHTS, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship against the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers, or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor.

“Better also to disarm in the same way, the precedent of Chaplainships for the army and navy, than erect them into a political authority in matters of religion. The object of this establishment is seducing; the motive to it is laudable. But is it not safer to adhere to a right principle, and trust to its consequences, than confide in the reasoning however specious in favor of a wrong one."

now THAT'S a wall of separation!

A National Day of Dispensation, huh? OK....

Quakers must have fist fights
Atheists must go to church
Scientologists will be nice to everybody
Jehovah's Witnesses will stay at home
Southern Baptists must go to a bar and get drunk
Street preachers will take a day off
Hindus will eat steaks

WMARKW: "How about a National Day of Dispensation [?]"

The Christian Right has to read Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason."

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/part1.html#1

How about a National Day of Dispensation:

Jews eat bacon
Jehovah's Witnesses give blood
Catholics have pre-marital sex
Muslim women wear bikinis at the beach
Christian Scientists get a check-up
Southern Baptists read about Darwin

Susan Jacoby : Let us pray? How about an invocation that goes, "Let us shut up so that we can hear ourselves think."

Sounds like you're a closet Quaker to me.

I like your "No Infotainment Day" concept, let's up the ante and offer a "No Commercials" day, which should effectively shut off most electronically distributed noise.