White Ignorance, Wright's Narcissism

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Mr Mark,

Yes, as you say, according to the account, in his anger, he physically threw down the tablets and broke them...physically.

If I have a copy of a law of the land in my hand and accidentally burn it, is that law now of no effect?

I guess Im unclear what your point is.

DCW wrote:

"do you personally believe that a man named Moses received those 10 commandments tablets that you stated 'he broke' (or something along that line)?"

Surely, you know from your OT studies that Moses came down from Mt Sinai, saw Israel worshipping idols and threw the two tablets containing the original 10 Commandments at the altar, breaking them?

Here it is in Exodus:

32:19 "And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount."

DCW – I appreciate your response and I see it as making excuses for God. I see such excuses whenever anything bad and/or inexplicable happens, in other words, frequently. The kind of things I hear, often from clergy, is that God can’t stop the bad things (e.g., mass murders, natural disasters, horrible illnesses) from happening, but he is there afterwards weeping with us and comforting us and warmly welcoming the dead into heaven (assuming they deserved it). Of course, when something good happens, God gets all the credit.

It simply doesn’t add up – and that of course is considered as “God working in mysterious ways” – yet another excuse for God. So much simpler to just acknowledge that there isn’t a divine being pulling any strings.

Dear DCW -

Thanks for keeping it civil.

You asked:

"If I may ask...Im curious if you believe the ark of the covenant actually/still existed/exists? Also, do you personally believe that a man named Moses received those 10 commandments tablets that you stated 'he broke' (or something along that line)? I guess my real question is, if you personally deem it all a myth, what is the difference to you wether it was the original 10 or some mixture of commandment and ordinance that you have personally read about?"

Oh, I consider it all to be myth, including the figure of Moses who Jewish scholars now agree wasn't a real person but an archetype. So, there were no commandments, no Ark, nothing. Just an old myth that doesn't stand up to its own internal scrutiny.

Why does it matter if it's all a myth? Simple - because a large number of people believe that the myths are historic fact and they are trying to foist their myth-based religious beliefs onto the lives of me and my family. Even your suggestion that we all just follow the 10 Commandments is hardly benign. If you would all just keep it to yourselves, that would be fine. But you can't or won't keep it to yourselves, so I see no reason to keep my systematic dismantling of your myths to myself. It's self defense, if nothing else.

What's good for the goose, as they say.

Thanks again for the civil chat...and my apologies if my posts sometimes lack that nth degree of civility.

DCW,

God is a proxy idea created by man (in this sense god "exists") for all the enigmatic social, familial, tribal, national, natural, cosmic, biographical, and historical phenomena and events for which there is no for the moment exhaustive explanation at hand. It could be argued that god is (and in its thousands of forms always has been) the desperate substitute for missing insight. In this sense "religion" and "reason" are related - reciprocally.

But then, the seduction of power coming with this proxy was an obstacle to even perceive the changes of knowledge of all these phenomena. Thus, creationism is still extant, even if a 10 year old child can easily debunk it today, provided he/she hasn't been perverted into magical Santa thinking from the start of its life.

Theological arguments from "within" this system are meaningless as to the validity of the system (Goedel). Therefore bible quotations mean exactly nothing as to the "truth" of the bible or its derivatives.

Like my fellow atheists on this thread, I remember my childish efforts (induced by "educators") to convince myself that black is white.

Black is black, and white is white (for our perception), what a liberating insight!

If god existed outside someone's mind, how come there never was any atheist punished for not believing in this entity? Even Canyon Shearer (aka Spiderman2?), who has already sent me to hell a couple of times, postpones this "punishment" to a time uncontrollable even for him, lol!

E Favorite,

A very good question. One Im sure no one has a full answer too.

I personally look at it this way. In believing scripture to be the inspired word of God, I believe that mankind made a decision in Eden..in short, to choose right and wrong, good and evil for himself (from the symbolic tree...remember, there were 2 trees...another discussion, another time). Hence the chronology of the miseries mankind has brought upon himself to this very day. But not to leave out some of the good that mankind does, which I believe is the true spirit of God imparted to us individually.

So why would God allow that? Well, first, He made us free moral agents, right? Not yellow pencils. He has a plan and a purpose, and the believer knows He can bring back life that has been taken away, as He will in each of the ressurections that not many talk about. Usually, you hear about going to heaven. Thats not what scripture says. But thats another story. I dont think many could deny that we have wanted to do things our way from the get-go. With regard to the 'yellow pencils', we as parents really overall do the same for our kids. Sometimes, in some cases, they have to learn things for themselves...otherwise they would not turn to a right way of doing things, especially if it is hammered into them by an authority over them.

I personally believe in a creator God and that God is a good God. And that He has a purpose that just might not fully be understood at this time.

Mr. Mark,

I had sensed that the word anger may not apply or seem too terse...perhaps, more so, cynical toward those who are believers?

In reality, there is nothing much to discuss. There are actually more sources that refer to the original 10 being in the ark of the covenant, and less that ascribe to what you present.

Since you offer no sources, and I offer no sources..then we could probably agree that there are many sources...scores, if not thousands.

If I may ask...Im curious if you believe the ark of the covenant actually/still existed/exists? Also, do you personally believe that a man named Moses received those 10 commandments tablets that you stated 'he broke' (or something along that line)? I guess my real question is, if you personally deem it all a myth, what is the difference to you wether it was the original 10 or some mixture of commandment and ordinance that you have personally read about?

Please. My curiousity is not intended to belittle or opine or be adverse to your beliefs and views. I must say, though, that I am intrigued by it and no disrespect intended or thought.

But, for the record, if I may say, I personally have become less angry along my road of Christianity.

Again, I wish you well.

DCW: You say “…but I believe the masses, as a whole, have misunderstood God, the bible and the stories within.”

Why do you suppose an omniscient, omnipotent God would allow his people to misunderstand him for two thousand years – the very people he created, the people whom he loves and to whom he offers eternal life (under certain conditions)?

I don’t really expect you to have an answer to this, but I would like you to think about it.

Dear DCW -

If I had a dollar for every time a religionist opined that I was "angry," I could quit my day job.

IIRC, I was a much angrier person when I was a Xian. How about that?

No, I think what you perceive as anger is simply a reaction that YOU are having to having your off-limits-for-polite-discussion beliefs in age-old superstitions challenged in a forthright manner. Well, better get used to it. The world has finally realizing that religious myths are being chucked by thinking, feeling people on a grand scale. The challenges to the politics and myths of religion will grow stronger, not weaker in the future.

It may be a bumpy ride, so buckle up!

BTW - you still haven't addressed the issue of the different versions of the 10 Commandments, at least, you haven't addressed it directly or to any degree of what one could consider a good-faith effort. I'll assume you aren't going to bother.

E Favorite,

I can appreciate your comments on Sunday school, indoctrination, etc. I used to, myself, go to church on Sunday, went to Sunday school, the whole 9 yards. But there was always something missing. Always something never explained or discussed.

But that all passed when I first looked at scripture as it is..a chronology of mankind and the problems we brought upon ourselves. And then, I found within those chronologies, the answers that those in scripture could have gone by and thereby avoided the misery they brought upon themselves.

It is of course my own opinion, but I belive the masses, as a whole, have misunderstood God, the bible and the stories within. One God, yet so many religions. I feel that is mans fault, not God's. Could it be people percieve Him as a 'hands off' God because thats really the way we want Him to be..even since the decision in the Garden of Eden, the symbolic tree, that man took of to determine right and wrong, good and evil for himself? I personally believe we are in the midst of a lesson to be learned that stems from those very decisions made by those who preceeded us and we just havent got the basic understanding of it all down yet.

I guess some may think I am rambling again. Just personal thoughts. I wish you well also.

DCW, you said” I do not believe that believers in God are ignorant, duped, sad souls who cling to something that others think of as a fairy tale.”

Speaking for myself, having been a believer until just a couple of years ago, I can say I was certainly not sad when I was a believer. I was, however duped and ignorant – I just didn’t know it until I started my own study – something I’d never done before. Like many Christians, I learned about my religion in Sunday school. In other words, I was indoctrinated (duped and kept ignorant), not educated. Once I became educated, the beliefs easily slipped away. There wasn’t any reason to keep believing.

Mr Mark,

It seems that you are a somewhat angry person when it comes to God and/or the bible. It is not my intention to point fingers, so if I am wrong, my apologies. Also, if my comments have been or seemed lengthy to you, my apologies also. I guess I am not sure when a fellow commentor gains the authority to comment on another's entry being too long, verbose or the like, or what purpose it intends to bring across.

In my view, it seems that so many thru the centuries have found a guide and truth to live by through scriptures. And this fact keeps going. I believe there is a sound reason for this. I do not believe that believers in God are ignorant, duped, sad souls who cling to something that others think of as a fairy tale. I personally believe the real fairy tale is in how we hide ourselves sometimes from the evils in this life and hope they go away. It is my sincere belief that they will in fact go away...just perhaps, maybe, in a different way than you might think.

Nevertheless, I wish you no ill will...that was not my intent in commenting. All the best to you.

Dear DCW -

Sorry, but the Bible itself - most especially in the original Hebrew and Greek - puts the lie to your last statement.

But, not to worry. There's always room for another head in the sand at the Biblical ostrich farm.

True scholars of the bible and its history are well aware that scripture does not contradict itself...rather, there is full harmony in scripture, especially with the original Hebrew and Greek. The KJV translators introduced error into the canonized set. You cannot have a complete study through one book. Commentaries, lexicons, etc. must be involved in putting it all together.

Several things which Mr. Mark mentions as 'different commandments' are nothing but ordinances. Commandments and ordinances are/were not the same. So there is fallacy in that type of reasoning. Scripture states the Word (who became Chirst) is the same yesterday, today and forever. Gods commandments are the same as you read in Ex. 20...the same as was told to Abraham....the same that were not done away with by Jesus. Just because the chronology of man via the bible cannot contain every single thing that happened is not a reason, nor a basis, to think the bible contradicts itself.

Dear Spidey -

Thanks for the last response.

Yes, I can see VERY CLEARLY how that explanation would suffice for someone with both a limited worldview AND an agenda biased towards accepting speculation and conjecture as sufficient answers, but the rules of logic are not so easily suspended in the search for knowledge and truth.

In short, you are jumping through hoops to make sense out of what cannot be made sense of. Black is white and up is down may work fine when disbelief is suspended and the bludgeon of faith provides one with a wild card to play whenever simple logic overwhelms the blatant ignorance of "divine" knowledge...but we all know that. The atheists among us just don't accept it as a truism while - apparently - you do.

I think I'm done here.

See you in another thread.

The Reality of it All!!!!

Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!!!

And the "fems" of Islam aka the flaws, errors, muck and stench of Islam:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3 That Shiites are less than human or Sunnis are less than human depending on what Islamic cult you belong to. (The Jihadist and the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia will verify this!!!)

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

Mr. Mark,

I hope this answers questions why many in the old testament (including some in the ten commandments) should not be taken literally and not to be read by unbelievers of Christ. That includes all the false religions and atheists. They should not quote the scripture coz they are NOT QUALIFIED to interpret it. It's been a problem since the time of Apostle Paul and here is the reason:

"And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a VEIL on his face. "(Exodus 34:33)

" Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But THEIR MINDS WERE BLINDED: for until this day remaineth the same VEIL UNTAKEN AWAY IN THE READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; which veil is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. " (2 Corinthians 3:12-16)

CCNL,
I didn't say there wan't tension and disagreements between Sunnis and Shia. I was noting that in some countries the two live side by side in relative peace as protestant and catholics do here in the USA, unlike Northern Ireland. One place they used to live side by side in peace was in pre-invasion Iraq. Lebanon is an ideal example of this, where they live side by side but a single leader can create distrust followed by hostility between the religions. If you think this is only happening from one religion I again point to northern ireland. I could also bring up the centuries long tension between christians and jews in Europe, and christians and muslims in the middle east that has lasted millenia

Religious tension has been used to prevent a stable government from forming in Iraq. You could probably forment distrust among any two groups that live peacefully together with the right amount of suspicion raised from targeted killings. Turkey is 75% Sunni and 20% Shia yet there is no conflict there. Saudi Arabia has about the same demographics and no conflict. And Hamas is made up of Sunni Palestinians, the same people who make up a sizable chunk of Jordan, a peaceful nation.

Religion alone does not make people into killers. Culture and circumstance do, and religion to some extent, but not the extent you seem to be describing. Religion, all religions, help forment an "us versus them" mentality even among people of the same culture and nationality. All you need is the right amount of stress with a pinch of reason to distrust the other, whether real or imagined. Distrust of other religions is a part of every religion and is one of the reasons I stay out of the whole mess and prefer to live in the real world and think for myself.

Daniel IHLD, you ask, “…do you think most people are best friends with the pastor or priest that married them, or baptized their children? I would say, for most people, this person would be a very minor, if not almost completely invisible character.”

Good question – I’d like to see a survey done on that – before the general election.

I bet a lot of people remember such a person fondly, but very few actually stay actively in touch unless they’re all still in the same church.

You also ask “So, why do we judge Obama by a standard that is so different than most everyone lives by?”

There was an interesting article in yesterday’s Washington Post about this. Here’s an excerpt:

“Obama may find it especially hard to shake the associations that white voters have formed between him and Wright because both men are black. Social psychologist David Hamilton at the University of California said this is because of a phenomenon known as the "outgroup homogeneity effect" -- on average, people tend to feel that those from other ethnic, cultural and political groups are quite similar to one another, whereas they know that people from their own groups are quite varied.

To break the mental associations that white voters have between him and Wright, in other words, Obama will probably have to work much harder than if politician and preacher were also white.

This also explains why black voters seem to have little trouble distinguishing Obama's views from Wright's views -- people rarely have trouble seeing that people from their own groups can have a wide range of views.”

Read the whole thing - The Candidate, the Preacher and the Unconscious Mind, By Shanker Vedantam, Monday, May 5, 2008.

I can't list the link - it causes my post to be held.

CCNL:

Unless you are on your way back to the polar regions sans laptop, you can read this. Please give some thought to the idea that your agenda is not the only allowable focus.

Others would like to discuss atheism, poetry, Wright/Obama, OT/NT, etc. (Some people enjoy being New Age Christians, others Muslim, etc. Last I heard, that was okay in the US--don't know about Anarctic policies on religion and atheism, poetry, Wright, etc.)

Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, they call them here.

Peace on earth. Let he who is without sin...

Last post on this and until later: Times archives, internet, State Department.

One very famous source: Ali Bhutto's direct accusations of threat by Kissinger in his book, which Kissinger never denied.

Also, I really do like the idea of Peace on earth....

I don't know if this is part of the thirty per cent (!), but I do know that the part about throwing stones is not.

Don't care, doesn't matter. Good ideas. New Age Christians are among the rest of us, so they, too, can benefit from them.

CCNL:

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Do you understand that it was Shah who paved the way for the lunacy that followed? Hello! Guess where I am from?

Do you know who Patrice Lumumba was? The havoc wrought by Joseph Kasavooboo? Guatemala? Allende. That gentle man, and, instead the mass murderer, Pinochet?

Do you live in a cave? Papa Doc Duvalier and Duvalier's son?

Did you just arrive in this country from the Anartic? Zia? ZIA?

If you have just come from the Polar regions, don't they have the internet there? Is the Times never accessible?

Do you even know whom I'm talking about? Who these figures were/are? Have you heard of 9/11?

My apologies to the rest of the blog members for again being way off-topic.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

Hmmm, a lot of conjecture on your part. References please!!!

No doubt our foreign relations, diplomacy and support of dictators were in hindsite not the best, but the Cold War required moves sometimes unsavorory and undemocratic. Thankfully we won the Cold War and God Bless the US citizen and taxpayer!! Without their blood and support, we would be bowing to the terror of the Rising Sun and the Swastika or the Red Hammer and Sickle. Or did you have some desire to serve these tyrants? Or do you think the world would be a better place with these crazies in control??

Spidey,

quotations from the bible prove nothing but their sheer existence.

There is a flat earth society. To prove that the earth is flat, just quote from the leaflets of the flat earth society.

Gerry,

Also, Fromm, a social scientist did not use the word "technology" (my anachronism). He wrote of science.

I'm not opposed to science, only the naivete that it proceeds ahistorically, with disinterest.

How could I oppose science? (Well, I suppose I could, but I don't.)

Some of its uses, what gets funded, etc., they are another matter.

I'm about as far from being a "religionist" as one can get. At least, I think so.

Gerry,

I'm not sure where we disagree....

Farnaz

Farnaz,

yes, I have read your comment to my post, thank you.

Religious doctrine = eternal, unchangeable "truth". (Intellectual status quo: 3000-2000 years ago, "infallibility", ha!).

Political doctrine = a set of ephemeral principles, for transitory political gain (Monroe, "prophylactic war" etc.).

Scientific "doctrine"? Never heard of one, since it would be an oxymoron, but if we substitute "theory" for doctrine, it amounts to the falsifiable knowledge attainable at the moment by the collective of unbiased, intelligent, honest minds, waiting to be corrected and expanded by further research. Not to be confused with technology!

Even scientific "doctrine" can be misused, but throwing sand into peoples' eyes is not science. Worst example: ID.

The Shah (US darling), Patrice Lumumba (assassinated)--in his place Kasavoboo--Guatemala--God help those people.

All on the web.

Peace on earth....

CCNL:

Then one thinks of Salvador Allende. CIA complicity was reported in the Times, not too long after the assassination. I found it a few years ago, in the process of doing research. The CIA admitted it.

And whom did we replace him with? Pinochet.

Enough. The list is too long, and I'm getting distracted.

Peace on earth....

CCNL:

Another thought: He was warned to stop socialist reform. By whom?

Moving on: We knew about Zia, the Saudis, and the Mudrassahs. I knew, and I am not from Pakistan. Many Americans knew. The government knew. No Question. It was always US policy to support dictators out of fear of Communism. Bhutto was no saint, but he did want rational economic change.

Who supports Mubarak, the House of Saud, etc.?

CCNL, CCNL, CCNL,

There is no dispute. Check with the State Department. We supported Zia. We agitated to have Ali Bhutto tried and deposed. He was threatened by Kissinger. In one of the most absurd "trials" he was convicted and executed.

Bhutto was controversial in many ways, but it was his plan to implement socialist reform that scared the US government. No saint. Next we move on to our guy, Zia. The word Madrassa is now common in English. Zia was in bed with the Saudis, our Dear, Dear friends, who started Mudrassas in Pakistan.

So...when you ask about who did what...

Someone said, "Peace on earth. Good will toward men." (women, children, animals, the earth, sky, universe)

Good thinking.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, be it he who is an atheist, new age Christian, etc.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnz,

We are way off the topic but:

"Fate" noted that the Shiite-Sunni conflict was isolated to Iraq. This however is not the case as noted in my counter comments to him.

And you have proof that the USA was responsible for the assassination of Bhutto's father?

With repect to our current war on terror and aggression :

An update (or how we are spending or have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

A Partial and Rather Recent Body/Terror Count:

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4056 US troops and 83,221 – 90,782 Iraqi civilians iraqbodycount.org/

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (besides containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!(or is he??)

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot. One of the most eminent US cultural institutions, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, has performed a landmark concert in North Korea.

The concert included music by Western composers and a Korean folk song, and was broadcast live on local television.

Unfortunately, North Korea’s apparent move toward peace did not last long as they fired test missiles last week and threatened South Korea with military action this week. Selling atomic bomb secrets to Syria as revealed recently is very disturbing.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9. Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Afghanistan, Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror and aggression of the Japanese, Nazis and Communists were with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

DC Native:

I agree with you. Also, African Americans may be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.

An excellent piece up until the following quote:

"As an atheist, I would also like to point out that all of the pontificating from white pundits about the role of religion in the black community ignores the fact that religion was also, at one time, used by blacks to keep other blacks subservient and to placate white supremacists"

Not only does this statement not fit with the rest of your piece, it kinda makes YOU sound Wright-ish in a way. Stretching out unsupported anecdotes to make broad, outlandish generalizations about a certain group of people...sounds familiar.

Anyway, so let me give it a try. I suspect you really don't know "jack" about black folks. Most white folks don't, nor do they really care to. Which sets the stage for someone like Rev. Wright. Like a good narcissist, he knew exactly what he was doing. He could've told the people that black folks have 12 toes, and half the country would've believed it. After 400 years, we remain a mystery in plain sight, in our own county. Damn.

ARMINIUS writes:
"Mr Mark,

That's very fascinating about the two sets of commandments. Since I spend little time in the OT, I was not aware of it."

No problem. Glad to be of service.

I think I speak for all of the atheists on this blog when I say that we feel it is our moral responsibility to educate the faithful in the content of their holy books. It's just a bit daunting to realize how MUCH there is that remains hidden from even the most-rabid of believers...and that's before logic and rationality raise their ugly heads! ;)

WHICH GROUP ASSASSINATED HER FATHER, ZULIFAKAR ALI BHUTTO?

Hint: Look up at the flag, the US flag.

BONUS QUESTIONS: WHY? AND WHAT WERE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE MURDER FOR PAKISTAN?

Goodnight.

Catch you later, Siderman, I hope--Farnaz

"Which group assassinated Bhutto?

Hmmm. Hard to answer directly, CCNL. SHE DID NOT WANT TO GO. SHE KNEW HER LIFE WOULD BE IN DANGER, FEARED SHE WOULD BE KILLED. Here you are in territory I know quite well. Which group put pressure on her to return, after having thrown its support behind the dictator that ultimately destablized the country?

AND closer to home: Which group assassinated JFK? MLK? RFK? Attempted to assassinate Ronald Regan?

Blew up the Federal Building?

This is silly. Let he who is without blame....

Benazir, who was hardly without faults, was a symbol of hope for many, many people. She should have been left alone, repeatedly asked to be.

I guess I forgot to say that I was speaking to Spiderman.

Also, I noticed that I had comment number 666 and that my name is Daniel, and the my name here is Daniel in the Lion's Den.

I wonder what kind of magical spells Spiderman, and others who post here, might read into that?

And also, E-Favorite:

You are right; people do not have spiritual advisors or consultants; even very relgious people in America do not have any such relationships; I do not, and nobody that I know does. I know alot of people who WOULD LIKE to be everyone else's spiritual advisor, but mostly the objects of their concern keep a safe distance.

I would like to ask, do you think most people are best friends with the pastor or preist that married them, or baptized their children? I would say, for most people, this person would be a very minor, if not almost completely invisible character. So, why do we judge Obama by a standard that is so different than most everyone lives by?

I am hoping that most people will realize what a silly tempest the Obama / Wright thing is.

Fate,

You might want to "google" the Sunni Shiite conflict.

Some facts and questions to answer,

From CNN:

"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.

Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

Iraq's civil war- Sunni minority, Shiite majority, 24/7 blood letting, 4000 American soldiers dead, 90,000 Iraqi civilians, dead.
Iran, Shiite theocracy, 24/7 support of global terror.

OBL, Sunni/"Wannabee"/Saudi madman and madmen, 24/7 support of global terror.

"The conflict in Lebanon has ignited a robust debate on jihadist Web sites over backing for Hezbollah, the Shiite group that set off the crisis when it seized two Israeli soldiers on July 12. The discussions reflect the widening divide between Shiite and Sunni Arabs in parts of the Middle East. Accusing Palestinians of being anti-Shiite, one Iraqi Shiite militant bitterly wrote, “It is better to concentrate one’s efforts on helping the Shiite kinfolk rather than the Sunnis.”

Fill in the answers below:

Hamas, Sunni or Shiite??

Fatah, Sunni or Shiite??

Pakistan, Sunni or Shiite? Which group assassinated Bhutto??

Malaysia, nearing a Sunni theocracy?

Bahrain, Sunni or Shiite???

Phillipines, Sunni or Shiite???

Taliban, Sunni or Shiite???

Somalia, Sunni or Shiite???

Spiderman,

Just one other thing: There are talking snakes. I work with one.

Best,
Farnaz

You have quoted from the Bible, ad-nauseatingly. And then, when some of it is thrown back in your face, you say it is improper. What do you want? do you want people to listen to whay you say or not? ou do and you don't; you'r giving off a schizophrenic vibe. If you want respect, you are never going to get it if you do not extend any to others, and you do not. You are haughty, superior, snobby on this blog, and that is a Christian example that we should all follow?

Not me.

Hi Spiderman,

I guess what I'm saying is that your voice has changed quite a bit--syntax, diction, you name it.

I really do hope it's you. It's just that I liked the old Spiderman, too.

Farnaz

Spiderman

Your previous comments on evolution were, once again, incorrect. When you belittle settled science, and seek fraudulently to claim that there is a controversy where there is none, you tell us more about yourself and the mechanisms of your own mind, rather than about your apparent passion, about why evolution is wrong.

I think you are not grasping the difference between speculative philosophy on the one hand, and science, on the other hand. There is no real philosophy that defines science; it is merely the consensus of scientists on scientific endeavors and processes. Any one is free to disagree with scientific consensus, but that doesn't mean there is a controversy among the scientists whose consensus is, in fact, the definiton of scientific truth.

And I also think that you have given little thought to the nature of existence, subjective consciousness, our mental mechanisms that form belief and enable knowledge, and indeed, knowledge itself, and how we regard it, and how we know the things we know, and how different people, seemingly know things that are different.

You, are instead, quite, circumscribed and cloistered. Your interest seems to roam not far from the Book of Revelation and the idiom of that type of religion, with the armies of Good and Evil clashing over matters of sexual conduct and orientation, and things like that.

I don't want to be talking about the ten commandments. Christ himself just summarized all the commandments into just two.

What I'm trying to say is that atheists don't understand the Bible and it's not proper that you guys be quoting the scriptures.

If you think there is something "wrong" in the scriptures, it is because something very wrong is happening in your brains.

If some religion interpret it falsely, it is not because the Bible is false but because those same religions who interpret it falsely are FALSE RELIGIONS.

There are no talking snakes. Clearly it's a metaphor and if you guys insist that snakes talk or you sin if you eat a certain fruit, it is because ATHEISM AND IGNORANCE DON'T SEPARATE.

IGNORANCE, however it is called, be it atheism, cannot, and will not, forever understand the Word of God.

It's a Book for the wise. Stay away from it. Stick to evolution. It's the playground of fools.

Farnaz, it's me. Sorry if I don't quite understand what you're trying to convey.

Anonymous:

There may be other reasons, just for learning about religious texts, for instance, just to discover who the writers were, what their thinking was, how it is reflective of the times and places in which they lived, in what ways it is syncretic, etc.

Yes, there are accounts of the first humans, and as you probably know, feminists have made much of the differences between the two.

Farnaz

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated wrote: "Hmmm, the Sunni-Shiite conflict in Iraq is reprehensible so says the "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist. Then she flips it right away saying Catholics and Protestants would have at it if they were in the majority/minority in Iraq like that gives some rationale to this 800 year old blood feud in all of Islam not just Iraq. Give us a break!!! The conflict goes directly to the foundation of Islam."

Maybe, but you cannot ignore the blood fued in Northern Ireland now can you? Both Catholics and Protestants say the other cannot get into heaven. That's a pretty basic religious issue. And consider that Shiites and Sunnis live side by side in other Islamic nations just as protestants and catholics do here in the USA.

Anonymous,

There are indeed two creations stories in Genesis, but only the second stars Adam and Eve.

Arminius

Farnaz:

You mention inconsistencies. There are quite a number. The two Adam and Eve stories just for starters. There are inconsistencies in the OT and the NT.

People seem to be polarized in their motives for discovering them. One bunch wants to show its all fiction. One bunch wants to prove it's all true. Another bunch doesn't care since factuality doesnt interest them. Another bunch doesn't care because they are atheists and may/or may not be interested in the teachings.

Hi Arminius,

Yes, this is what I've been trying to say, why archaeological evidence, alone, affords little insight, that is, from a certain point of view.

Traditions were forming throughout the Tanakh. There was more than one E writer. The writer's were educators, it has been generally surmised. What manuscripts the different writers had access to is problematic. Then, too, there are hypotheses about differing ethical/moral perspectives.

Joshua is very interesting in this regard. Yes, we have hypothesized a set of writers, but unexcavated sites remain problematic.

Look at the inconsistencies.

There are also huge textual problems in the NT, but they are different. As for archaeological evidence, well....And then there are other unresolved NT questions.

Personally, I'm more interested in your inspired "We and We!" sacred words if ever there were such.

Regards,
Farnaz

Mr Mark,

That's very fascinating about the two sets of commandments. Since I spend little time in the OT, I was not aware of it. It is though there were two separate traditions that were merged. This would help to explain the appearance of two different creation myths in Genesis.

Arminius

Hi Spiderman,

Well, well, well....that is, if you are Spiderman.
Spiderman is a curious name to choose for a prejudiced Euro-American. A talented African American writer? Minister? A talented Euro-American Writer? Minister? Better if you do not tell us.

Does this mean that we have seen the last of the old Spiderman? I sincerely hope not. Sans the "stupid," etc., that is. The old Spiderman brings out some elitism most would do well to look at.

If you are not a writer now, Spiderman, I would like it if you would consider it as an avocation. A lot of very religious people created art. You have named one....

More later....

Farnaz

UNBIASED OBSERVER: wrote " Just use the brain evolution gave you. :) "

Evolve, Darwin, evolve. THAT'S THE MAGIC WORD OF ATHEISTS.

Is it possible to store a very huge amount of energy in matter? How is it possible that the human brain, considered as the most intelligent, can only produce so much stored power in lithium ion batteries but the brainless matter can store it in quadrillion times more powerful (E=mc2)? A gram of a pretty flower can obliterate whole cities if it's mass is converted to pure energy.

Is the word evolution more intelligent than the human brain itself because no evolutionist can create a brain separate from what nature produced?

It's been almost 2000 years since Jesus died. Is it about time that the metaphor of the Garden of Eden (Milton's paradise lost) would happen? Had not Europe became from a "nations of "Christians" " to a nations of unbelievers? Who would have thought that countries who fought for Christ will become countries who will ridicule Christ? Only the Bible predicted that.

2000 years is about to be reached and it's about time that the destruction of the Jews and all unbelievers as Jesus has prophesied as a result of their unbelief will face the realization of the prophecy.

Very often we hear the words "The eagles are coming" like in the movie, the Lord of the Ring. Soon we might hear the words. THE SERPENTS ARE COMING !!

It's coming soon, just like what they say for upcoming movies. COMING VERY SOON.

Believe or perish. Take that from a "man" who walked on water. If you think it's a funny sight that a "man" can walk on water, think how "funnier" it is that the brain can evolve from soil thru time and all the trees around us too. It's "funny" to think that a gram of matter can store very huge amount of energy capable of destroying a whole city unlike man-made batteries. The fun stops when it becomes you who will be swallowed by the "ficticious" snake or be clawed by the "fictitious" eagle.

Of course it's not fiction that the eagle has dropped its city-shattering "nature-made batteries" over the island of Japan. Is the serpent fiction? Who is the serpent? BE THE JUDGE.

Let the movies roll.

Dear DCW -

Care to comment on the two widely different versions of the 10 Commandments reported in Exodus, and the FACT that the 10 you are referring to are NOT the 10 that were placed in the Ark of the Covenant...or is that just another one of those glaring contradictions in the Bible that the faithful refuse to address, preferring to talk around the subject as you did in your last overly long post?

I'm guessing you won't bother addressing the issues I raised in my post timestamped at 3:04pm today.

The 10 commandments were not eliminated due to the fact Moses threw down and broke the tablets they were inscribed on. Rather, the 10 commandments have been 'eliminated' (or disregarded) by human beings in many forms and fashions due to deceit propogated by the adversary. The same goes on here in society in the physical realm. There are many 'adversaries' to laws and ordinances in our day and time...laws and ordinances that are for our good, but are sometimes twisted, turned around and brought into court to be fought against. Scripture refers to God's commandments with regard to Abraham, long before Moses, in Gen 26:5 and Jesus stated he did not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them (expound upon them that they apply in the spirit, not only in the letter) He separated them in two sections..love toward God (first 4) and love toward fellow man (last 6). Jesus expounded on them referring to them as 2 great commandments. It doesnt mean, thru Him stating them that way, that now stealing or lying are ok. This is one of the primary fallacies with modern religions, stating that the commandments are 'done away'..yet, stealing, in our society, is a crime and comes with a punishment if one is convicted. It doesnt match up to say the commandments are done away with. All of this is a primary reason why there is so much religious confusion in the world. Christ did exactly what He said...He didnt do away with them. Many see our laws of the land and view those same laws in the same light: We stop at a stop sign because its the law. But we also do so because we wouldnt want to harm our neighbor or ourselves for that matter. There is a reason the 10 commandments are looked upon favorably by a majority of our citizens, as well as those that were here before us for thousands of years. And it is certainly not by accident, ignorance or superstition. The 10 commandments, if kept in the spirit and the letter, work. And a thorough study of each shows how they really work to our benefit, good physical as well as mental health, peaceful lives and dwelling on our planet to serve our fellow man as we do for ourselves.

More Farnaz please!

More Farnaz please!

Hi Gerry,

Did you read my reply to you? Do you understand what I, just I, mean by doctrinaire atheism vs. simple atheism?

Farnaz

PS. Also, I think one can be an adherent of an organized religion without being a "religionist."
In my own simple view "conversionism," among other things get in the way, make it more difficult.

Ken,
Can you provide a link where Obama said his Pastor was his mentor? He said he was his pastor. Rev Wright said that he was not Obama's Mentor or Guru...he was the pastor and Obama was a member of the church.

There are those who will choose many reasons not to vote for Obama..his pastor is one exuse...

The Dedication in Obama's second book Audacity of Hope is not dedicated to Rev Wright but to :
To the women that raised me-
My maternal grandmother, TuTu, who's been a rock of stability throughout my life,
and my mother, whose loving spirit sustains me still.

If you have not read the sermon Audacity of Hope...googlr it. It is worth the effort and worthy of the inspiration of this awesome book.

And Ken..do yourself a favor and read about Obama's mom's bio. A remarkable woman.

terra

Hi Spiderman,

If you leave this thread, with in either mask, it would be great loss!

Farnaz

Hello Spiderman2!

Devilish churches, lake of fire!

Any Siderman fan of Milton, well, I don't really know where to take it from there....

If this is you, how on earth can you do both voices?

Are you are a writer, Spiderman?

In your new personna, will you still post the sites for beautiful psalms!

I hope so!

More later...

Farnaz

DCW wtites:

"t would be nice if the 10 commandments were not regarded by some in our nation as intrusive, obsolete or unecessary. If all are kept in the spirit as well as the letter, what a kinder, happier and more decent world we would all share."

Ah yes, the mighty 10 Commandments.

Interesting, but the 10 Commandments are called the 10 Commandments ONLY ONCE in the Bible, and that is in Exodus 34:14-26. But the so-named 10 of Exodus 34 aren't the ones that everybody's always talkin' about. For some reason, people believe that the 10 Commandments of Exodus 20 were the ones that Israel followed. They weren't. Moses destroyed the original 10 and god gave him a NEW set of 10 commandments.

These were the 10 Commandments that were placed in the Ark of the Covenant, and they are:

The Ten Commandments

1. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.

4. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

5. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

6. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

7. Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the feast of the Passover be left until the morning.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Yes, it would be SO much better if everybody in the USA followed the REAL 10 Commandments! ;)

Someone quoted the following:

>>Other stats are drawn from PEW polls at ...www.people.press.org..., including the statistic that 72% of Americans think it's Jim Dandy to display the 10 Commandments on public property.

Impressive percentage. And presents a very decisive fact that a majority of us believe in something higher than we. It has been that way for the entire history of our country..a majority of us who believe in a creator God.

It would be nice if the 10 commandments were not regarded by some in our nation as intrusive, obsolete or unecessary. If all are kept in the spirit as well as the letter, what a kinder, happier and more decent world we would all share.

Hey Spiderman2, what ever happened to calling everyone stupid? I like the old Spidey better, he was predictable - like a clock. :)

As far as your bible prophecies go, one doesn't have to be an expert on haute couture to realize that the emperor has no clothes.

Just google "Failed Bible Prophesies". No discernment of the Holy Spirit needed. Just use the brain evolution gave you. :)

spiderman2 writes:

"Wow Jihadist, you made an excellent defence against Mr. Harris "masterpiece work". Suddenly Mr Harris and Mr. Mark himself, who seem like an avid fan of him, looked like "geniuses" devoid of reason and rationality. The atheists' hero suddenly lost his luster."

Now, that's just sad, Spidey. You're flailing at lifelines like a believer grabs at the "proof" of god found in a grilled cheese sandwich.

To whit:

* The 11/6 article Jihadist cites is hardly Harris' "masterpiece work." His "End of Faith" is his most-extended work, but up to now, I've never heard it referred to as a "masterpiece," even though it did win the PEN Award.

* Harris is hardly a hero to atheists. Personally, I'm not one to look for heroes. I'm reminded of the line int the Brecht play where one character opines, "pity the country that has no heroes," to which another replies, "pity the country that needs them." As it's obvious to one and all that you (Spidey) "need" your Jesushero, it's easy to see why you view others through that particular prism.

* I'm not an "avid fan" of Harris. He makes some good points that others make better, IMHO. I disagree with him on some points. I find Dawkins and Hitchens to be better spokesmen for the atheistic position in general than I do Harris.

So -after your wide-of-the-mark (pun intended) shot, you're back with the Isaiah-ic dissolving again. Yikes! You need to get a life!

Dear Jihadist -

At the office now. Just checked Harris' "Letter to a Xian Nation," ands the statistics he cites are taken from a recent Gallup poll which may be accessed here:

...editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002154704

Other stats are drawn from PEW polls at ...www.people.press.org..., including the statistic that 72% of Americans think it's Jim Dandy to display the 10 Commandments on public property.

OK, I've done some of the leg work for you. You do the rest.

BTW - with all of the Harris quotes you provided, I still don't see any that are as hysterical and histrionic as those of any religion's stock in trade. After all, Harris just citing statistics, for which there is some basis in reality, while the religionist's talk of hellfire and eternal damnation is pure superstition, wrapped in a "my god's bigger than your god or non-god" veneer.

Spiderman2 aka Canyon Shearer, Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

Fools are those who have read only the bible. God cannot be proud of such lazy creations!!!!

What "voodooer of the hoodoo" blessed you with such stupidity in the field of fortune telling and interpretations of said stupidity???

Wow Jihadist, you made an excellent defence against Mr. Harris "masterpiece work". Suddenly Mr Harris and Mr. Mark himself, who seem like an avid fan of him, looked like "geniuses" devoid of reason and rationality. The atheists' hero suddenly lost his luster.

Jihadist wrote "Of course, he (spideraman2) is calling to get "them" first before they get "us".

What I find lacking in your defence though is that, you don't know what Isaiah's prophecy (Isaiah is not a Christian and long existed before the "physical" Jesus existed) was talking about.

Isaiah's prophecy is this. " Don't hurt God's people (referring to Israel) or you would DISSOLVE. What many people don't know is that it is about to happen. What will happen in the near future is that DESPITE all the warnings, they will hurt Israel and as a consequence, they will DISSOLVE.

"Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent."

So far, nobody had interpreted the prophecy correctly (although Wiccan made a respectable try). It just shows how IGNORANT the people are like Mr. Harris because they obviously don't know that what they are doing is adding to the number of people to be dissolved on the assumption that they are hindering it to happen thru "ENLIGHTENMENT".

Now where are the so called "Enlightened" people? Do they know the relation of the Snake in the Garden of Eden to that of Isaiah's serpent? They laugh at the idea of the "talking snake" in the Garden not knowing that they are laughing at their OWN IGNORANCE.

"Evolve, Darwin , evolve". Learn to interpret metaphors first before delving into the origin of Creation.

Atheism and Ignorance cannot separate. They are like two faces of of a coin.

Hello Farnaz. Im still waiting for your email :)

@Farnaz
That's like asking if people called 'Andrew' scare me. Not really.

But I do know of people call who have made great careers shouting "Equality! There are very few CEOs called 'Harry'! Diversity! We need more people called 'Harry'! Oppression! There are people called 'Harry' in jail! Social prejudice! The villains in some books are called 'Harry'!"
Sometimes this goes into extremes, such as "Equality! Feeble people have an equal right to 100m Olympic gold medals! Diversity! The group of Olympic gold medalers must include feeble people!"
What scares me is feeble people who do get gold medals, without doing any running what so ever - just by politicizing issues.

I tend to cringe listening to hard-core feminists. Feminists who claim that something needs to be done with regards the gender inequality in boards of directors (as they did in Norway, last year) never really say anything about the 'gender inequality' in jails -there are fewer women in jail too. Should we perhaps address this inequality too and put more women in jail?
(this should not be confused with the average salary issue, which is a real issue)

Of course, this is easily explained by evolutionary psychology - women need to be stable and averse to risk-taking, as they are more important to communal survival than men.
One man and all women surviving some crisis means the next generation will be as numerous as the previous. One woman and all men surviving a crisis means the next generation will be in single digit numbers.
This implies that women (with small exceptions) wouldn't really like to throw themselves in the deep unknown.

So, while average abilities and propensities are the same for men and women, there are bigger extremes in men. If abilities and propensities were height, then all people would have an average height of 165cm, but very few women would be dwarfs or giants.
This means that great people and big criminals are predominantly men.

Does this imply that Darwin is sexist? No, reality is sexist, and will continue to be so until we start growing babies in jars.
Words can not substitute reality; it has been tried - it was call communism.

Hello Jihadist, you said:

"When a religionist, (as atheists like to characterise believers of the supernatural) said an athiest is a "militant atheist" or a "doctrainaire atheist", he or she saying an atheist is rather strident in putting forth his or her point of maxims such as "There is no God", religion is a superstition", "believers are deluded", "religion poisons everything" etc.

It does sound like a creed, dogma or doctrine based on shared opinions, beliefs etc. to believers, even if atheists state their belief, opinions, assertions and what have you is based on "facts" and what believers said is based on "puff"."

My comment: When an atheist says: I don't believe in fairy tales, Santa, Easter Bunny, the stork bringing the children, God lurking to trap me into "sin" (preferably sexual) in order to be able to send me to hell unless I believe these colorful stories, it is

"Strident".

If a "religionist" (if you don't like the term instead use believer, faithful, pious, god-fearer, Creationist, rapture-hoper, Pegasus aviator, 72 virgin server, nature scoffer, or any other imaginable superstitionist you can name) says something, it is "moral, divine, holy, saint, uplifting".

The consolatory fact that there are others who don't believe in such "higher" sanctimonious fables doesn't morph this "non-belief" into a creed or a dogma. I don't socialize with any "church of atheists". As has been said, "not collecting stamps" is not a hobby.

For you, of course it must be a "strident creed" to be able to defend yourself against it.

Btw, Jihadist, as entertaining as your contributions are (not so much your last one when you argue about Harris' sources, which have absolutely no bearing on the stringency of the topic itself), you never refer to the inner truth of your belief. All you do is talk about its historic, social ("tribal"), even biographical usefulness. And there, of course, we could easily start quite a new discussion.

Fraternities use the most hilarious "rituals" (fencing, drinking and worse) in their hazing habits to prove a togetherness (in my youth, I was a member of a musical fraternity myself!). Each fraternity, of course, prides itself of the particular difference of their hazing or initiating habits against all other fraternities (sororities). It can be argued that these habits have a social, historic, biographical, even uplifting value, even without the claim of some "eternal truth" to it. In my book about stage fright I advocate rituals myself!

Have Mr. Harris and/or the Rev. Wright commented on the "fems" of Islam or for that matter the "fems" of any religion????? Book and page number please- even a Google reference/book would do.

Hmmm, I wonder if Google is restricted in Malaysia and other Islamic theocracies. Ooops sorry, Malaysia is not quite a Sunni Islamic theocracy but their Islamic "watch dogs" might limit Google access anyhow. One must wonder what a Malaysian, Iranian, Saudi, or Syrian Islamic gets when "Islam fems" (without the quotation marks) are entered into the Google search engine??

Dear Jihadist -

Thanks for the response and the Harris quotes.

As you point out, Harris cites a number of statistics in his 11/06 online article that you are quoting. You wonder where he got those statistics. I believe he names his sources in his two books. Perhaps he had to keep it shorter for the online article, or perhaps he didn't feel the need to provide sources in the online format. I will check tomorrow as those books happen to be in my office.

I'll try to give you an answer in the next day or two. If anyone else wants to jump in in the meanwhile, be my guest.

Hello Farnaz,

Thanks for your post.

I'm not sure morality will catch up with science. What kind of scientists knowingly pursue making chemical, biological and nuclear weapons?

No, I don't see Gerry as a doctrinaire atheist. He does seem like a neo-Rennainsance man being musician, lecturer, lover of science and philosophy etc.

I'm off this for a while. If I don't respond to your posts, it's because I'm somewhere else.

Best regards

"J"

And still the "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist does not address the "fems" of Islam aka the flaws, errors, muck and stench of Islam. If she ever did, she would realize that eradication of said "fems" would go a long way in making earth politically and religiously a peaceful place to live. Until then:

No one is safe until the koran is deflawed!!!!!

And once again the "fems" of Islam:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3 That Shiites are less than human or Sunnis are less than human depending on what Islamic cult you belong to.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

And have Mr. Harris and/or the Rev. Wright commented on the "fems" of Islam or for that matter the "fems" of any religion????? Book and page number please- even a Google reference/book would do. Hmmm, I wonder if Google is restricted in Malaysia and other Islamic theocracies. Ooops sorry, Malaysia is not quite a Sunni Islamic theocracy but their Islamic "watch dogs" might limit Google access anyhow. One must wonder what a Malaysian, Iranian, Saudi, or Syrian Islamic gets when "Islam fems" (without the quotation marks) are entered into the Google search engine??

Suicide bombings are also killing a lot of innocent Iraq civilians right now, parents, children, ordinary people....

I fear for what Iraq and Iran will become.

Suicide bombing is an interesting problem, difficult for American troops, at the moent.

Still, I wonder. Perhaps, we Jews should have just blown ourselves up in downtown Tehran or Cairo, etc.

We might do this in certain European quarters, today.

The Bahai could consider this. And since no one gives a damn about the Tibetans, perhaps rather than self-immolate, the monks might educate for suicide bombing.

But most of all, the American Indians, who are in the process of being exterminated on American soil.

The Dalit....

Borneo....

Better to eliminate national borders, organized relgions, etc. Just a thought.

Hello Mr. Marks,

I thought you would get back and "not allow" me a sweeping thing in response to that sweeping thing by Mr. Harris.:)

Mr. Harris is a most factual, rational man and thorough man. A significant voice in the American discourse on religion and lauded winners of many book awards - the standard setter and bearer of current thoughts on religious beliefs.

Who am I to argue with the god of truth, reason and rationality?

On Sam Harris's essay of Nov. 13, 2006 issue posted here, so let us have fun to indulge you and other disciples of Mr. Harris:

Harris : Despite a full century of scientific insights attesting to the antiquity of life and the greater antiquity of the Earth, more than half the American population believes that the entire cosmos was created 6,000 years ago.

* Is he quoting figures of Americans Christians who said that believe in God? Or those who actually really believe and take it literally that the world was created 6,000 years ago? Which figures was he quoting, by whom, and how were the questions posed?

Harris : This is, incidentally, about a thousand years after the Sumerians invented glue.

* Was Harris really sure it was the Sumerians who invented glue? Did he not look further east?

Harris : Those with the power to elect presidents and congressmen-and many who themselves get elected-believe that dinosaurs lived two by two upon Noah's Ark, that light from distant galaxies was created en route to the Earth and that the first members of our species were fashioned out from dirt and divine breath, in a garden with a talking snake, by the hand of an invisible God.

* Was there any dinasaurs on Noah's Arc actually mentioned in the Bible? Or we would still have dinosaurs today as saved by Noah.

* It is quite correct to say humans are created from "dirt". We are all from the 'cosmic dust' as the process of the Big Bang and expanding universe shows.

* There is nothing in the Bible that says God is invisible to Adam. In the Genesis, God even fashioned clothes for Adam. And Moses met God as a "burning bush". God is only "invisible" since that time.

Harris : This is embarrassing. But add to this comedy of false certainties the fact that 44 percent of Americans are confident that Jesus will return to Earth sometime in the next 50 years, and you will glimpse the terrible liability
of this sort of thinking.

* Where did he get those figures? If from a survey, whose? Did anybody not ask why they think so? Harris should really ponder why some believe so. There has been "many end of the world" in the next hour, next week, next year in the last millenium in Christendom. All regarded as whackos by mainstream Christian believers.

Harris : Given the most common interpretation of Biblical prophecy, it is not an exaggeration to say that nearly half the American population is eagerly anticipating the end of the world.

* Ask Americans again - Do you want the world to end? If so, why? Perhaps the question posed was: Do you think the world will end? Instead of, "Do you want the world to end".

Harris : It should be clear that this faith-based nihilism provides its adherents with absolutely no
incentive to build a sustainable civilization-economically, environmentally or geopolitically.

* They do act tenaciously to propogate that "end of world belief" - a whole industry in fact and significant part of the faith related materials. There is economic windfall in sounding out "the end is near".

Harris : Some of these people are lunatics, of course, but they are not the lunatic fringe. We are talking about the explicit views of
Christian ministers who have congregations numbering in the tens of thousands. These are some of the most influential, politically connected and well-funded people in our society.

* Which churches is he talking about? The Southern Baptist churches? The mega-churches? The churches lobbying for freedom for missionary work overseas? How many American church leaders actually wants to hasten Armageddon such as Pat Robertson? How many evangelicals actually wants to save souls instead of hastening the Armageddon?

Harris: It is, of course, taboo to criticize a person's religious beliefs.

* Which part is "taboo" to criticise? The personal belief of an individual? The oganised and institutionalised church structure and organisation and leaderhip and management? That there is no God? That religion poisons everything? Moses, Jesus personally held responsible for what their followers do?

Harris : The problem, however, is that much of what people believe in the name of religion is intrinsically divisive, unreasonable and incompatible with genuine morality.

* People resort to religion when they think what is done is divisive and wrong by the "others". And what is "genuine morality" for Harris? Is he talking about "ethics"?

Harris : One of the worst things about religion is that it tends to separate questions of right and wrong from the living reality of human and animal suffering.

* Harris should say that to the Taliban, Iranians or Saudis who are certainly so into "right" and "wrong" in the real world to the point of meting out really harsh punishments for crimes such as rape (even to victims), murder, thieving just to ensure a world free from "sins". "Animal suffering". Is Harris a vegetarian? Is he wearing suede shoes and leader jackets and wool coats?

Harris : Consequently, religious people will devote immense energy to so-called moral problems-such as gay marriage-where no real suffering is at issue, and they will happily contribute to the surplus of human misery if it serves their religious beliefs.

* Homophobias are not just confined to the religious sorts. Try going to Scandanivia. Thought legally accepted and socially so, there are still homophobias. Not many gay marraiges in Scandanavia as one expects thought many do live together as would straight couples.

................and suddenly in his essay, Harris went on to embryonic-stem-cell research. I'll skip that. Not really a global problem.

Harris : ... it seems safe to say that the president of the United States has more power and responsibility than any person in history.

* Not quite anymore. He can't even force Israelis and Palestinians to get together. Unless he really don't want to. Or to get the whole world to go into a "Caolition of the Willing" into Iraq. Or to convince the world there's really WMD in Iraq. Or to ask OPEC to increase oil outputs.

Harris : Religion is the one area of our discourse in which people are systematically protected from the demand to give good evidence and valid arguments in defense of their strongly held beliefs.

* How so protected systematically? By whom?

Harris : And yet these beliefs regularly determine what they live for, what they will die for and-all too often-what they will kill for.

* Of course people will kill for what they believe in - From Pol Pot to Osama. Troops for freedom and democracy.

Harris : Consequently, we are living in a world in which millions of grown men and women can rationalize the violent sacrifice of their own
children by recourse to fairy tales.

* Yes. Millions were fooled into thinking Osama and WMDs are in Iraq to rationalise violent sacrifice of American troops and Iraqis too. Modern fiction and a fairy tale of the birth pangs of a new Middle East.

Harris : We are living in a world in which millions of Muslims believe that there is nothing better than to be killed in defense of Islam.

* And where did he get the stats for that? Certainly Muslims in accordance with Islamic principles - to fight against those who wage war against them, to fight against illegal occupation and invasion. To fight against those who declared themselves as enemies of Muslims/Islam. That said, millions of Muslims are not thinking of ways to kill Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, except for unhinged fellows. The neocons are all still alive too.

Harris : We are living in a world in which millions of Christians hope to soon be raptured into the stratosphere by Jesus so that they can safely enjoy a sacred genocide that will inaugurate the end of human history.

* Is that really millions of American Christians wanting "genocide"?

Mr. Harris has such low, low opinions of his fellow Americans who believers in most of his essays. Or was it some of them? Or all of them? He should move to Scandinavia and find his Utopia there. :)

Aquarius, you wrote to me:

"I'd rather go with morality which is emergent from individual concepts and figures of speech, that are individually outside the moral domain, but form a better/happier world in their totality."

This is the reason I suggested you look at Ernst Bloch. When I first read Heidegger, I knew nothing of his high profile nazi past, and I do mean, high profile. Not that he was engaged in mass extermination, or anything like that, nor can I imagine he would have advocated it.

Speech, languague: My German was good enough for a bit of Goethe, but nowhere near the level to read the Black Forest Philosopher, still the darling of many postmodernists. I was in college. So I tried it in English. An abomination. Finally, I read it bilingually.

Well, what can I say? I began to feel a horrible chill, freezing heart and spirit's core. I can still remember, almost experience it. I kept thinking I was in the primeval forest, something primitive working its way through the words.

I had no idea at the time that Bloch had already done a formidable close reading of the text. Not too long after, of course, all hell broke lose with the scandals.

But you, one, or at least I, saw it in the language.

This is the point I was trying to make to you. Yes, you say figures of speech, well....So look at the language. No need to look at "jews," just look at the language....

Think of the times in which he lived. Look at contemporaneous language, if it interests you.

Farnaz

PS. Do Jews scare you?!

Jihadist,

Well, doctrinaire atheism does heark back to the enlightenment, with seeds planted earlier. Then of course, more recently, we had the postivists.

Eric Fromm, Escape from Freedom.

Fromm was looking at all of this: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Shoah. Hence, his point about technology, or "science," rushing through the twentieth century, while morality lingers in the stone age.

He proposed a reprieve. Time out for morality to catch up with science. I'm waiting.

INteresting point: Most would agree that Albert Einstein was a scientist. He had nothing whatsoever to do with the development of the A bomb, the Manhattan project, etc.

BUT: HE HELD HIMSELF RESPONSIBLE SINCE IT WAS HIS THEORIES THAT ENABLED THE BOMB'S DEVELOPMENT.

His theorizing had nothing to do with thoughts of a bomb, of course.

I think one has the right to believe there is no God. I, myself, probably think this. But then I have no false idols either.

I don't see Gerry as a doctrinaire atheist, but I'm not always a good judge of character.

Farnaz

Dear Jihadist -

Thanks for your lengthy response, BUT -

you failed to cite any of Mr Harris' own words in response to my challenge. Granted, you offered your opinions on how you interpret Mr Harris' ideas, but as for actual citations - nada.

So, I'll try again - citations, please. You need not type them in their entirety. Simply give me the page numbers from Mr Harris' books and I'll look them up for myself.

Thanks.

Hello Gerry,

"Doctrainaire atheist" and "doctrainaire atheism"?

You stated, as other atheists do, atheism is not a "belief" but freedom from religion. I see that you are horrified by religious doctrines. So are some believers on the bits about damnation and hellfire in the afterlife if they are sinful and sinning sods. If they have a conscience.

There is, of course, non-religious related doctrines, as in the Monroe Doctrine expanded by Teddy Roosevelt. Quite terrifying and horrific too for countries interfered in and/or invaded as a result of that Doctrine. Nowadays it not called "doctrines' but "foreign policy".

When a religionist, (as atheists like to characterise believers of the supernatural) said an athiest is a "militant atheist" or a "doctrainaire atheist", he or she saying an atheist is rather strident in putting forth his or her point of maxims such as "There is no God", religion is a superstition", "believers are deluded", "religion poisons everything" etc.

It does sound like a creed, dogma or doctrine based on shared opinions, beliefs etc to believers, even if atheists state their belief, opinions, assertions and what have you is based on "facts" and what believers said is based on "puff".

No believer here is arguing against anyone's right not to believe in God/s. Is is apparent that believers are arguing what non-believers said about God's and religions. Of course all that fun stuff with some believers saying atheists will go to hell, and some atheists saying believers are morons, idiots and deluded.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Mr. Mark,

Oh, why not. How about another take? I am trying to understand why some American church leaders and groups are into Armageddon when Christians in other countries are not so.

So, not line by line today on Mr. Harris' essay, including his assertion of millions wanting to cause death and destruction in the name of their faith, or to die in defence of their faith.

For a country relatively more "sheltered" from terrorist attacks (except for 9/11) and not having organised terrorist groups operating in their midst to cause mayhem and murder, Americans from Pat Robertson to Sam Harris do sound a wee histrionic and hysterical in their own ways.

As I stated in another posts elsewhere, more people died from crimes in the US than from terrorist attacks. At least 85,0000 Americans since 9/11 in the homeland, excluding the US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan where much much more Afghans and Iraqis died.

If one reads Mr. Harris' essay here, one would think that dying for one's country (regardless of political-economic-social ideology) is more noble than dying for one's belief, rights and for what is right even within countries.

In a war between theology vs ideology, which is more right? Would that depend on which theology and which ideology? And for what reason?

I wish I knew what Mr. Harris really thinks of the war waged by the Mujahideen against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Was that to Mr. Harris an unjust invasion and illegal foreign occupation and the Afghans were just fighting for the freedom of their country?

I do think Mr. Harris is a wee hysterical and histrionic in his concluding paragraph. You miss out the "wee" in my previous post on his essay.

Mr. Harris spoke of the "world" brimming with WMDs. Not in any other countries. We will hear of them if they try to acquire access to and build the capabilities to build WMDs if they are not already in the declared nuclear club.

As for End of Days, Armageddon, eternal damnation, hellfire, people rising from the dead, etc. perhaps one needs to look back in American history - the Cold War with the Soviets and the Cuban crisis.

Perhaps we should consider the possibility the insecurity and fear embedded in the minds of some Americans on a nuclear holocaust with children taught to sit and hold their heads under tables, and people building bomb shelters stocked with food.

Does that have a bearing on the psyche of some Americans who may translate them into their end of days scenarios in religion in these days as adults?

One cannnot fail to notice that it is only some American church groups that have these Armaggedon scenarios in constant play but not in other countries or even the Muslim world. Muslim fanatics fight to live in the world they think should be according to their beliefs, but none is calling for or to cause the end of world.

What says you these fears of the world "brimming" with WMDs and another manifestation of a people and country with the most WMDs, had had experience the fear of it in the Cuban crisis, and resort to a specific belief on its dangers and apparent fears of it?

My Japanese friends can barely speak about the atom bombs that fell on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You can see their fears translated in the public square even in the Godzilla movies - a cautionary tale, or a tale of embedded fear on the horrific direct impact and subsequent effects of WMDS. As Godzilla for one, rampaging and creating havoc.

A beast we created, which we think we have control over, but once unleashed it, it takes forms that is beyond our control, and so it spooked us. Robert Oppenheimer, seeing the experimental atomic bomb blast for the first time, is alleged to to have said - I have become death, a quote from the Bhagavad Gita.

There would be fires and brimstones and people rising from the dead (from their graveyards when the earth is torn asunder) if a WMD is blasted in any area populated by humans. Eternal brimstone and hell indeed. It takes quite a very long while for nature to recover from nuclear blast.

And Mr. Harris is not paying enougth attention to the North Koreans and Chinese. They have nuclear weapons. And they are not quite the religious sorts. No one is saying the North Koreans are blasting their bombs for God.

The lay believers in the US don't, but their government have the keys and the codes to blast bombs. They fear what happens if their governments strike others first, or others do it to the US first, be it countries or groups.

Some of Spiderman2 posts reflects this "inevitability" in the belief of the End of Days. He is not listing countries with the possibility to end the world for nothing. There are still fears of possible first strikes and countersrikes that may cause world wide war and end of many lives and destruction to nature and man-made structures.

Spiderman2's post on "zookeepers" and "loose tigers" is telling as well as on "stupid" beliefs and "stupidity" of people - self-defence unleashed as reactions to provocations or challenges to a life and belief thus held and sectorised. Of course, he is calling to get "them" first before they get "us".

So, with human nature that also includes fear, loathing and mistrust of imperfect, incapable or brutal leaders whoa are more in history than freely loved and respected leaders, how can one not understand the need for some to wait for a perfect Messiah to save us all and take us to a better place?

How can we not understand the anger of some to consign some to hell for their actions and beliefs? For not seeing a world as they believe in if only all would see it the same way as they do?

How can we not understand their anger from their own prisms of what they see as transgressions against them and the world and to get away in life of their just punishments?

If there is not justice, no peace here on earth, let it be somewhere else, and by someone else to lead us, to judge us fairly as we think and believe they way it should?

Perhaps we should take American Christians into Armageddon, End of Days, fire and brimstone seriously on their hopes and fears, and what is causing them to go for that sort of scenarios.

Fear and uncertainty plays no small part. And surely not to ignore the obvious frustrations translated into anger against the government, against individuals, against other groups?

It would seem that "secular" notions and values in contemporary society and state affairs is regarded by some as amoral, specifically on life and death as in abortion and in war. But not for war to fight against perceived enemies.

Cold War. Korea War. Vietnam. Iran. Afghanistan. Israel-Palestine conflict. Iraq. Oh, North Korea too. WMDs in the background, an overhanging cloud spooking some Americans and others designated as America's enemies.

For both Muslim and Christian fanatics, it is not their respective faiths and beliefs causing all these mayhem and murder, deaths and destructions. They reinterpreted, or go back to the texts to deal with and as reactions to governments' secular decisions' in foreign and domestic affairs that have to live with. Unwillingly and resentfully.

Faith a blowback, religion in individual practice and as organised as a reaction to the excesseses of goverments and perceived neo-ethics and values that diminish human dignity?

Got to leave.

Cheers

"J"

Hi Gerry,

But from what you write, you are not a doctrinaire atheist, simply an atheist. I admire science too, but not scientism. When I learned about DNA, it was more poetry to me--elegance.

There is an article, perhaps twenty years old, called "Nazi Science," published in the journal Science. Also see George Mosse, Nazi Culture, Nazi Ideology.

Steven J. Gould once wrote that Darwin was a social Darwinist, by which I think he meant that Darwin's thinking. scientific frame of mind was shaped by the culture in which he lived. Gould, in that article, was not thinking Popper.

Science occurs within culture, is institutionalized. It does not proceed in a vaccuum.

From one perspective, though, it is poetry, indeed.

If I had more time, I could give you more examples of what I mean by doctrinaire atheism. But from what you write, your atheism is not much different from whatever it is that my non-theism is.

I could dispense with organized religion, including New Age Christianity (I don't think we have the equivalent in other religions) within a split second. Likewise nation states, national borders.

It is the gods of the Enlightenment that frighten me, as they have left us in much darkness. Eric Fromm wrote that while technologically we were living in the (then) twentieth century, morally we were living in caves.

Farnaz

Jihadist observed:

"Uhhhhhh...Ohhhhh, Mr. Harris, you always sound a wee hysterical and histrionic to me."

Dear Jihadist -

Perhaps you could cite a few phrases by Mr Harris that rise to the hysterical and histrionic content of the average religious belief? You know, something on par with eternal damnation, hellfire, people rising from the dead, a god who watches the behavior of 6-billion people 24/7 and takes notes on who is going to end up in all that eternal brimstone?

Compared to the average religious belief, Mr Harris' writings share more in common with Dr Seuss than the hysterical & histrionic crowd, wouldn't you agree? ;)

..or, to loosely quote Rumi:
"The form is a snare on the way to reality,
when you are trapped in forms,
you are worshiping idols"

Hi Farnaz,

hi farnaz. I'd like to add you in my email list. Can you please email me in this account? xpiderman2@gmail.com. Thanks

Jihadist says: "...I've read and heard celebrities talk about their "spiritual guides" or "spiritual advisers" if "gurus" of any sort count."

Good example! and these are usually celebrities who are not taken seriously as anything but entertainers. And we usually learn about their "spiritual guide" in a fluff piece article about how they became famous, or how they stay sane and centered in the midst of their great celebrity status.

@Farnaz
Interesting questions, that I have already answered in this topic. I guess, I was lucky to not mention Wittgenstein in relation to my opinions on that - another well known jew basher (trashed Freud), who also went to high school with Hitler and chased Popper with a hot poker during a discussing on morality and ethics.
(to be read at the sound of youtube.com/watch?v=y-9L-RZkod4 )
/smiles/

Ok, I'm serious now.
I don't believe in morality written in stone, as this is easily abused. I'd rather go with morality which is emergent from individual concepts and figures of speech, that are individually outside the moral domain, but form a better/happier world in their totality.

Farnaz,

you wrote: "Doctrinaire atheism is more of the same. Why must it all be so aggressive?"

I am a musician, teacher, author, lecturer, admirer of nature, of science, of philosophy, of fellow humans, and a person who does not believe in anything supernatural, including god(s), scriptures etc.. Nature, to me, is already "super" enough!

But "Doctrinaire atheist"? I would be at a complete loss to find the slightest trait of "doctrine" in my world view. It is the horror of doctrines that shapes my thoughts.

I know, the religionists always resort to that meme that atheism is a religion. It is not. It is the freedom from religion.

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

What's with mentioning the Nicene Creed? How many times must we note:

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

And with that synopsis of the "fems" aka flaws, errors, muck and stench of Christianity, the Rev. Wright should be out of a job very soon!!!

So we return again to the Five Step Program for your escape from the Three B's of Islam as it is obvious that you still cannot even write the word angel, those pretty, wingie, talking, flying thingies that serve as one of the major foundations of Islam. How ironic that this typical representation of bringing good news to the Christian world is a messenger of suicide, murder and maiming in the "koranic"/Islamic world.

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the koran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways and strange spelling books which Islamics wish to impose on the infidel world!!!!

Jihadist:

As I recall, "Rereading Lolita in Tehran," was the title, although I could be in error, and the author was Iranian. But, again, I didn't like it much.

As for the public/private sphere, well all one has to is gaze a the past, a bit, even here in the US, and one is quite surprised. England is appalling to me in this regard, but I mean no offense to the English out there.

Iran is not being helped by the US government.
What strikes me as most ironic in this invasion is that it is bringing together the most extreme elements of nations that, shall we say, have not been good neighbors. The Iraq temperament is so different from ours, or, what, at any rate, used to be ours.

Farnaz

Hi Jihadist,

Yes, I read "Reading Lolita in Iran," but I didn't like it much, I'm afraid. More specifically, I liked some parts of it, but then it all became to self-indulgent to me. So middle class in some ways....

Strangely enough, I filtered Mernissi's book through a western or almost universal lens. That is to say, what hit me almost immediately, and I was very young when I read it, was the interweaving of patriarchy, nation state, and religion, not only or even primarily in developing nations.

When I say "shock waves," I mean, of course, the fanaticism and oppression that can come in the way of self-assertion, of a healthy regionalism that can be used to thwart "globalization." One of my closest friends, who lives in Islamabad has been struggling for years against this insane weapons development, the dangerous exploitation of Baluchistan, which most people never even heard of until post 9/11, etc.

I remember an email she sent me in which she described a discussion at the University in her city (I can't spell it off the top of my head) involving nearly 100 female students, some her own graduate students, arguing why they should veil.

Here, in the US, I am reminded of some of the writings of Matthew Arnold in the nineteenth century, his anxiety that those to come would never be able to comprehend the rapidity of socioeconomic change his generation had experienced and the chaos that came in its wake. All of these extremists of all religions we see here in the US, are, I think, symptomatic of felt exploitation and atomization, the perception of chaos.

For years, I fought and struggled to change things here. Now, I think I must develop a healthier interiority. As for religion, I go once in a while to services because I enjoy the brilliance of the rabbi, but if all organized religion disappeared tomorrow, I think I could handle it. Likewise national boundaries.

I really like Arminius's We. I'm no kid, but I remain a child in many ways. (I'm trying not to let too many people know.)

Farnaz

Hello Farnaz,

I can't resist some things posted on or by Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. As atheists, they are right up there for some believers as Charles Colson and Cal Thomas is for some non-believers.

Come now, be nice. Europe has the Enlightenment because they have had the Dark Ages. They said so themself in their history books. We came from, or live in lands where the sun always shines all year round - sun-kissed, sun-burnt, sun-stroked areas. Interrupted by desert storms or tropical monsoons, cyclones and hurricanes of course. So, we have no Dark Ages, no Enlightenment and such.

From what I see in most developing countries, "organised religions" do provide services where governments failed to - schools, clinics etc. But at a cost of course. Eventually, you are "persuaded" to be an adherent of that organised religion (Christian missionaries shools and clinics) or their particular thinking on religion, such as the Deobandi schools along the Afghan-Pakistan border areas - the Wahhabi/Salafist version of Islam. As for "organised religion" in developed countries, well...

I've read Mernissi's, "Beyond the Veil", but it is also about and seem more relevant to the Middle East then where I am living now in parts. For example, Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims are not anthropologically and sociologically "tribal" societies as in the Middle East. Nor is there a tradition of a seperate "harem" for women at home which thus, does make it easier for Indonesian and Malaysian Muslim women to be in the public square - schools, workplace, going out and about on your own etc.

Yes, "fanaticism" is also reaction against modernity as in "lax western morals and values" even if they used the "fruits" of modernity to get their points across against that sort of "modernity" - tapes, DVDs, Internet. The speed of change for many from even one generation ago is a bit much for some. So they "revert" to and insisted on what they know. A lot of insecurities in play. Corrupt and effective governance don't help.

It is not so-much post-colonial shockwave as post-colonial self-assertiveness. The "natives" are beginning to think and make up their own minds and disagreeing with what their former masters (the west) said and do, or said but did not do. Or ask others to do but do not apply to them. And certainly and most especially, what their own governments do or did not do. With independence of countries comes the desire to try out alternative forms of governing systems to replace the ones that failed, not for the better in some cases.

But I am talking about societies in developing countries under great political, economic and social pressures whether they are experiencing growth, or is stagnating in every way. The most extreme forms of Muslim fanaticism are also in countries where the governments are also the most brutal in repressing their own people. And of course, fanaticism has "hatred" at its heart and core for the "other" and those they are against - Rob Parsley and Pat Robertson too?

As you were from Iran, have you read Elaine Sciolino's "Persian Mirrors"? Tell me what you think of it if you have. And that book, "Reading Lolita in Tehran". I wish I could remember the author's name off-hand, as a friend told me it was "embellished". Mind you, not a Muslim or Iranian, but an American.

I always read what foreigners wrote about the "natives" apart from reading what the "natives" wrote about themselves. Very interesting and telling variance of how "non-native writers" see "them", and how "native writers" sees themself and "them'.

Right. If I don't respond further, it's because other things are getting my attention. So...much later.

Best regards

"J"

--------------------------------------------------

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

CCNL : "Give us a break!!! The conflict goes directly to the foundation of Islam."

Back in form again! All you need is a little "tender" attention from moi to get going again.

Ahhhh....remember the Nicene Councils and the subsequent breaks in Christian churches, sects, denominations too? Right during the foundations of the Christian creed and up to Henry the VIII and then some.

Not paying attention to some intense and passionate Catholic-Protestant blog brawls in On Faith threads? It is only a bar brawl away if you get them together in real life.

I don't use "western" dictionaries for western spellings of the Qur'an. Live with it.

There is always have time for people and things you love - family, poetry, music........

Do go drink that wine and read poetry or listen to music. I don't take alcohol. Hope you're sober right now.

tit for tat
spit for spat
thunk for thump
flip for flop

----------------------------

a jug of wine
a snippet of poetry
a snatch of music
and thou.

(with apologies to Rumi)

Cue in Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra".

Hmmm, the Sunni-Shiite conflict in Iraq is reprehensible so says the "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist. Then she flips it right away saying Catholics and Protestants would have at it if they were in the majority/minority in Iraq like that gives some rationale to this 800 year old blood feud in all of Islam not just Iraq. Give us a break!!! The conflict goes directly to the foundation of Islam.

The conflict plus the Islamic absurd belief in an illiterate, hallucinating, warmongering, womanizing, lust and greed driven, and long dead Arab and his pretty wingie, flying, fictional thingies will continue to eat away at the foundations of Islam and its terror states. In the meantime, our resolve and weapons will be necessary to contain this Islamic stupidity as it crumbles into oblivion from the corrosion of said stupidity.

And where are her comments about the passages/stench in the koran (spelled properly as per all Western dictionaries) that promote terrorizing, maiming and killing the infidel? Or Islamic wives?

But she does have time for wine and music!!!!

This is by Karl Racosi, who died a few years ago. This poem is written in the manner of Ibn Gabirol. A poem for our times.

A LAMENTATION

Awake.

Your youth is passing like smoke.

In the morning you are vital

a lily swaying

but before the evening is over,

you will be nothing but dead grass.

Why struggle over who in your family

may have come from Abraham?

It’s a waste of breath.

Whether you feed on herbs

or Bashan rams

you, wretched man,

are already on your way into the earth.

Ibin Gabirol

These poems were written when he was sixteen.

I'M PRINCE TO THE POEM

I’m prince to the poem my slave,
I’m harp to the court musicians,
my song is a turban for viziers’ heads,
a crown for kings in their kingdoms:

and here I’ve lived just sixteen years,
and my heart is like eighty within them.
...............................................
Before I was, Thy merce came to me

Before I was, Thy mercy came to me,
inverting void and being Thou madest me to be.
Who wrought my image, poured my essence
into the crucible and gave me shape?
Who breathed a soul into me
opened the belly of Sheol and took me out?
Who led me from childhood until here?
Who taught me to understand, caused me to marvel?
Indeed I am clay in Thy hand.
Thou didst make me, in truth, not I myself.
I shall confess my sins, and not say to Thee
"The serpent deceived me and led me astray."
How can I hide my guilt from Thee? For indeed
before I was, Thy mercy came to me.

Jihadist:

I don't know if you read my post to you, posted a few minutes before yours. What do you think?

Isn't some of it, the recent fanaticisms of all the organized religions, reactions against modernity? Future shock? In some cases radical, although misguided postcolonial shockwaves?

This whole campaign has been like reality television. Have you seen it? Do you have it in your country?

Doctrinaire atheism is more of the same. Why must it all be so aggressive? I think Mernissi was very good for me.

Rumi, Rabbia, Ibn Gabirol.

Goodnight Jihadist,
Farnaz

E Favorite ask : "Personally, I don't think I've ever heard anyone outside of politics make reference to their spiritual guide."

I'm not too sure about that as I've read and heard celebrities talk about their "spiritual guides" or "spiritual advisers" if "gurus" of any sort count.

Mary Cunningham may just call them "spiritual airheads" or "spiritual dillentantes" - for both the "gurus" and their "disciples".

And good question posed. Perhaps we should send American politicians with "spiritual advisers" to Afghanistan and Iran - Afghanistan under the Taliban of the Wahhabi/Salafist school of Sunnis. And Shiite Iran still practicing "Velayat-e Faqih: Hokumat-e Islami" (Islamic Government Under the Guardianship of a Doctor of the Law). For lessons to be learnt.

No good ever come out of theocracies. Nor from any religious/spiritual adviser or group talking about or actively participating in state affairs in increasingly multi-cultural, multi-ethnic multi-religious countries.

All the more we should pay attention and ask ourself why.

--------------------------------------------------

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

Hello pussycat.

The Shiite-Sunni conflict in Iraq is reprehensible. The fight for revenge and power. No good ever comes from a minority repressively ruling over a majority in their countries.

What makes you so sure Protestants and Catholics would not be going at each other in a third world country if they have a situation like Iraq?

I can just see a Protestant Salvation Popular Front having it out with a Catholic Liberation Theological Front in the streets if it is one or the other as either the ruling minority or majority.

If you don't like Wagner's "The Ride of the Valkyries" as your theme song, there are many other Boom Boom Boom, Blare Blare Blare pompous classical music and by Americans too.

Aaron Copland's "Fanfare for the Common Man"?

CCNL : The Rev. Wright has analogous problems with the "fems" of his brand of Christianity.

As if we don't have enough with the Wahhabis/Salifists ulema, the Taliban, some Iranian and Iraqi Shiite ayatollahs and mullahs, some Iraqi Sunni ulema, freelance self-styled Sunni Muslim ulema here and there. Our very own Pat Robertsons and Rev. Wrights. "Irritants" if we don't agree with them, and they are "truth-speakers" if we do. The "us vs them" types.

All the more for you to have a small break to enjoy a nice bottle of wine, read some poetry, listen to some music. Wright too shall pass from the American political-religious landscape, but not the issues he raised, and the issue he became for raising them and the way he did as what he is.

Hello Jihadist,

Oh no, Sam Harris. Still stuck in the Enlightenment creed, whose teleology we know. Idols of the tribe of European reason.

Still, I continue to wonder if religion must be quite so organized. You've read Mernissi, Beyond the Veil? (I confess I have not read The Veil and the Male Elite.) But Beyond the Veil enabled me to see more clearly the ways in which patriarchy, religion, and nation states interweave. Beyond the Veil, I thought and think, has implications for all organized religions, the whole gamut of -isms, in fact.

I read some Rumi tonight, some Rabbia, and some Ibn Gabirol. Only for a little while.

Warmest regards,
Farnaz

Hello Jihadist,

Oh no, Sam Harris. Still stuck in the Enlightenment creed, whose teleology we know. Idols of the tribe of European reason.

Still, I continue to wonder if religion must be quite so organized. You've read Mernissi, Beyond the Veil? (I confess I have not read The Veil and the Male Elite.) But Beyond the Veil enabled me to see more clearly the ways in which patriarchy, religion, and nation states interweave. Beyond the Veil, I thought and think, has implications for all organized religions, the whole gamut of -isms, in fact.

I read some Rumi tonight, some Rabbia, and some Ibn Gabirol. Only for a little while.

Warmest regards,
Farnaz

Ah! Ms. Dickinson, what a rare surprise! I'm nobody (too).

Would you consider a position as language advisor to the candidates this election year? Your poetry would be their study for forty minutes every morning and for forty minutes every night.

You would never be asked to leave Amherst. (The candidates would not be able to contact you.)

With deepest respect and gratitude,

nobody

I'm Nobody! Who Are You?

I'm nobody! Who are you?
Are you nobody, too?
Then there's a pair of us -don't tell!
They'd banish us, you know.

How dreary to be somebody!
How public, like a frog
To tell your name the livelong day
To an admiring bog!

Emily Dickinson

McCain's "spiritual advisor" is as oxymoronic as the man, himself.

Look's to me like all this nonsense has sent Hillary on the path to Zen.

Pat writes:

"Isn't it all enough already? Countries with state religions don't spend this much time on religious populism."

So, what's going on? What's made this campaign so lunatic from so many perspectives?

E Favorite wrote:

"Personally, I don't think I've ever heard anyone outside of politics make reference to their spiritual guide.

Has anyone here?"

Unfortunately, I have. However, I can't recall having heard it before in the course of a political campaign.

Isn't it all enough already? Countries with state religions don't spend this much time on religious populism.

It's come down to the ridculous situation of McCain, whom we all know hasn't set foot in church for decades, with a "spiritual advisor," whose acquaintance he just made.

Pleez. Enough already.

Oh "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Hmmm, time for music and wine but no time to address the "fems" aka the flaws, errors, muck and stench of Islam that continue to make this world a very violent place.

And said violence caused be these "fems" requires the free world to stay ("brimming") vigilent with the means to isolate the violence of your Sunni/Shiite nonsense mentality where it belongs i.e. in the dark lands of Islamic theocracies.

Once again the "fems" of Islam:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3 That Shiites are less than human or Sunnis are less than human depending on what Islamic cult you belong to.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

The Rev. Wright has analogous problems with the "fems" of his brand of Christianity.

Sam Harris: "In a world brimming with increasingly destructive technology, our infatuation with religious myths now poses a tremendous danger. And it is not a danger for which more religious faith is a remedy."

Well, well, well, Mr. Harris! Someone brought out an old essay of yours here! How delicious! Let's rock and roll and have fun!

Uhhhhhh...Ohhhhh, Mr. Harris, you always sound a wee hysterical and histrionic to me.

The increasingly destructive technology that is "brimming" is from "your" own country. Some of "us" want a bit of destructive technology to protect "ourself" from "your" country "brimming" with them. For right or for wrong.

Come now Mr. Harris, our "infatuation" is with rights - including on race and gender. Something more wordy? Okay, on economic and political rights. On social and cultural rights etc.

Theology and ideology are just some of the "wraps" for getting these rights either to dominate, abuse, marginalise, deprive or to cease being dominated, abused, marginalised and deprived. Using religion/theology as for or against rights are potent and thus spooky one for you, eh, unlike ideology?

Just ask Mr. Wright on his rights - what he said, why he said what he said, and how he said them. A black butterfly on a white wheel? Only a smear on the wheel if the butterfly is rolled over.

Ah so, Mr. Harris. I just love all the "religious myths", including on the Greek and Roman and Egyptian gods and goddesses too. Isis is interesting - "I am who I am" said she. Can't beat that.

There are modern gods and goddesses and their "myths" (i.e. lies concocted and manufuctaced right before our eyes and in our times, or in poeple we simply adulated regardless of their faults due to what we want to think of them and what they mean for us) you should consider Mr. Harris.

* Elvis is King.

* Dylan is the Great White Hope

* Tina Turner is the Great Goddess of Rock.

* Greta Garbo is the Goddess of the Silver Screen.

* Mr. Bush thinks he spoke to and for God. Or God speaks to him.

P.S. Some of your admirers in your On Faith threads said your are "god" and there's many myths and legends about your too.

Enjoy your next meditation and contemplation, Mr. Harris.

Or, you can take time out to sing that good ole Italian song, 'O Sole Mio", resung by Elvis as "It's Now Or Never". Almost operatic.

Fits in the tone and the thrust of that old essay of yours posted by Anonymous here Mr. Harris - it's now or never to wipe out religions and religous myths and religious faith.

As if.

SPIRITUAL GUIDES

Pat, you say "Should we vote for the candidate with the most appealing spiritual guide?"

Leading me to wonder - how many ordinary people have a "spiritual guide" or mentor and if they do, acknowledge it and talk about it?

Personally, I don't think I've ever heard anyone outside of politics make reference to their spiritual guide.

Has anyone here?

I've heard of favorite composer and author and professional role model, but not spiritual mentor -- even among people who are very religious.

Atheist or no, Anon, the interrelations of religion and politics have become absurd. Should we vote for the candidate with the most appealing spiritual guide?

If yes, why not let the candidates get some rest, and have their advisors on matters religious do the campaigning?

A Dissent: The Case Against Faith
Religion does untold damage to our politics. An atheist's lament.

By Sam Harris

Newsweek

Nov. 13, 2006 issue - Despite a full century of scientific insights
attesting to the antiquity of life and the greater antiquity of the Earth,
more than half the American population believes that the entire cosmos was
created 6,000 years ago. This is, incidentally, about a thousand years after
the Sumerians invented glue. Those with the power to elect presidents and
congressmen-and many who themselves get elected-believe that dinosaurs lived
two by two upon Noah's Ark, that light from distant galaxies was created en
route to the Earth and that the first members of our species were fashioned
out of dirt and divine breath, in a garden with a talking snake, by the hand
of an invisible God.

This is embarrassing. But add to this comedy of false certainties the fact
that 44 percent of Americans are confident that Jesus will return to Earth
sometime in the next 50 years, and you will glimpse the terrible liability
of this sort of thinking. Given the most common interpretation of Biblical
prophecy, it is not an exaggeration to say that nearly half the American
population is eagerly anticipating the end of the world. It should be clear
that this faith-based nihilism provides its adherents with absolutely no
incentive to build a sustainable civilization-economically, environmentally
or geopolitically. Some of these people are lunatics, of course, but they
are not the lunatic fringe. We are talking about the explicit views of
Christian ministers who have congregations numbering in the tens of
thousands. These are some of the most influential, politically connected and
well-funded people in our society.

It is, of course, taboo to criticize a person's religious beliefs. The
problem, however, is that much of what people believe in the name of
religion is intrinsically divisive, unreasonable and incompatible with
genuine morality. One of the worst things about religion is that it tends to
separate questions of right and wrong from the living reality of human and
animal suffering. Consequently, religious people will devote immense energy
to so-called moral problems-such as gay marriage-where no real suffering is
at issue, and they will happily contribute to the surplus of human misery if
it serves their religious beliefs.

A case in point: embryonic-stem-cell research is one of the most promising
developments in the last century of medicine. It could offer therapeutic
breakthroughs for every human ailment (for the simple reason that stem cells
can become any tissue in the human body), including diabetes, Parkinson's
disease, severe burns, etc. In July, President George W. Bush used his first
veto to deny federal funding to this research. He did this on the basis of
his religious faith. Like millions of other Americans, President Bush
believes that "human life starts at the moment of conception." Specifically,
he believes that there is a soul in every 3-day-old human embryo, and the
interests of one soul-the soul of a little girl with burns over 75 percent
of her body, for instance-cannot trump the interests of another soul, even
if that soul happens to live inside a petri dish. Here, as ever, religious
dogmatism impedes genuine wisdom and compassion.

A 3-day-old human embryo is a collection of 150 cells called a blastocyst.
There are, for the sake of comparison, more than 100,000 cells in the brain
of a fly. The embryos that are destroyed in stem-cell research do not have
brains, or even neurons. Consequently, there is no reason to believe they
can suffer their destruction in any way at all. The truth is that President
Bush's unjustified religious beliefs about the human soul are, at this very
moment, prolonging the scarcely endurable misery of tens of millions of
human beings.

Given our status as a superpower, our material wealth and the continuous
advancements in our technology, it seems safe to say that the president of
the United States has more power and responsibility than any person in
history. It is worth noting, therefore, that we have elected a president who
seems to imagine that whenever he closes his eyes in the Oval
Office-wondering whether to go to war or not to go to war, for instance-his
intuitions have been vetted by the Creator of the universe. Speaking to a
small group of supporters in 1999, Bush reportedly said, "I believe God
wants me to be president." Believing that God has delivered you unto the
presidency really seems to entail the belief that you cannot make any
catastrophic mistakes while in office. One question we might want to
collectively ponder in the future: do we really want to hand the tiller of
civilization to a person who thinks this way?
Religion is the one area of our discourse in which people are systematically
protected from the demand to give good evidence and valid arguments in
defense of their strongly held beliefs. And yet these beliefs regularly
determine what they live for, what they will die for and-all too often-what
they will kill for. Consequently, we are living in a world in which millions
of grown men and women can rationalize the violent sacrifice of their own
children by recourse to fairy tales. We are living in a world in which
millions of Muslims believe that there is nothing better than to be killed
in defense of Islam. We are living in a world in which millions of
Christians hope to soon be raptured into the stratosphere by Jesus so that
they can safely enjoy a sacred genocide that will inaugurate the end of
human history. In a world brimming with increasingly destructive technology,
our infatuation with religious myths now poses a tremendous danger. And it
is not a danger for which more religious faith is a remedy.

Harris is the author of the New York Times best sellers "Letter to a
Christian Nation" and "The End of Faith."

“This is the true joy of life....being a force of nature instead of a feverish, selfish little clod of ailments and grievances, complaining that the world will not devote itself to making you happy.”

G.B. Shaw

Militant Agnostic: I don’t know, and neither do you!

Eve was talking with God in the Garden of Eden, and she said, “God I have a problem. It’s a beautiful garden, but I’m lonely and I’m sick of eating apples.”

“Okay. I’ll create a man for you.”

What’s a man?”

“He’s a creature with aggressive tendencies, an enormous ego who doesn’t listen and gets lost a lot, but he’s big and strong, he can open jars and hunt animals and he’s fun in bed.”

“I guess I can live with that!”

“There’s just one other thing. He’s going to want to believe I made him first.”

Hello Mr. Mark,
and Arminius too,

Yes, enough of Wagner. My husband says if I ever drag him to one more opera or any concert of music by Wagner, he'll divorce me. Desperate measure of avoidance of Wagner's music. Wagner is said to be anti-Semitic too.

You : "Verdi and Handel (and Bellini) were absolute masters of the compelling diatonic melody - the simple, scale-wise rising of a melody that gains strength and beauty through its own inherent inevitability."

Yes.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

What pussycat! You did not take time out at all to listen to Camille Saint-Seans "Samson and Delila"? It's a Biblical story, is it not? To find flaws and debunk factually and musically?

Never mind. For short and easy "bites" of music/noise, take a wee time out to listen again to Georg Friedrich Handel's "The Messiah". Check the obvious 'Hallelujah Chorus', the 'Glory to God' (the Singularity if you like), "The Glory of the Lord', "Zadok the Priest" etc.

Too overtly 'religious' music? Oh, there's always Handel's Fireworks Music (Concerto No. 26) and Water Music (Suite No.2 in D major). Short and sweet and stirring if you want them to be.

And for something more 'pagan', how about 'Largo' from "Xerxes". No? Right, Handel's Concerto Grosso then?

You like to sing "Grace" in Gregorian chant. You'll like Gregorio Allegri's "Miserere mei, Deus" I suppose.

As I sometimes think you are a gender-sensitised fellow, how about Leo Delibes' 'Viens, Mallika'. Find his opera "Lakme" and you'll find it. Two ladies singing about nature. No mention of God/the Singularity there, only flowers, birds, but not on "the birds and bees". So, it's not a naughty, racy duet.

Music to soothe the soul of the "Wagner" in On Faith threads. The honorary Valkyry (if you are a man) of these threads.

Cue in Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" as your theme song. Hey, I like this one too by Wagner.:)

-------------------------------------------------

SC Cromett,

I think I'll take up that karaoke opera idea of yours either in Milan or New York (as suggested by E Favorite).

No juice for me, please. Only herbal tea for my throat.

Ahem, ahem, ahem...

O Sole Miioooooo
its now or never
to discuss on Wright
to get back to topic
on race and rights.............

many dyslexic
agnostic insomniacs
lay awake at night

wondering if there
really and truly might be
such a thing as dog

--Unknown

Love Undone
Oh love where is your sting
I pursue breaking away
From that which is an affliction
To experience a new thing
All the lies, cheating, and scrutinizing have played their course
The addiction holds secure without any remorse
Steal what you will un-natural affection
Alone for now but close is my redemption
Holding me to a higher standard
That you were not willing to live by
Hidden is your agenda hoping your whor*s will continue to lie
I have now seen the light since knowing about Portside
Hacking will not save you from me saying good-bye
O heartbreak where is your sting
It will lie within the one who neglected to consecrate the ring
Oh what a mistake you made in quenching the fire
Now what was once love has turned to a lack of desire
Others spoke for you and reported what I said
But I fed the lions the evil of which you dread
Now come hear the truth my life soon will begin anew
And in this newness hope is alive to be without you

Written by: Me

Music is not a thing imagined? If not, surely much ado about nothing. After all, what's in a soundwave but noise?? Provided there is an ear to hear, that is.....

Mr Mark,

Can't resist one more post on opera. (Be patient, CCNL.)

With my kids, when they were young, I spent not a few hours with them watching cartoons. Some of them were quite good. The one I remember best is Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd doing a parody of Wagner. Bugs was Brunhilde, Elmer was Siegfried. Elmer in full Nordic war gear, singing, to the music of Ride of the Valkyrie, 'Kill the Wabbit, Kill the Wabbit, Kill the WABBIT!!'. My guts were in a knot, and tears ran down my face. A tour de force. Or, rather, a Tour de Farce.

Ya gotta laugh, or ya goes nuts.

Arminius

Dear Jihadist -

One of my very closest friends happens to be a Wagnerian tenor who sings Tristan all over the world (Salzburg, Covent Garden, etc.). He's actually made 2 DVD versions of the opera as well. He's sung both Siegfrieds at the Met as well.

There are plenty of men still singing opera, but they can get burnt out faster than women simply because there are less of them and they tend to get hired for lots of things. The smart ones get their fee up to where they can turn down work and give themselves a break, but even then, they find themselves on holiday getting a frantic call from someplace or another (never within close range of where they're vacationing, BTW) to come and save some opera production because the scheduled tenor came up ill.

But enough of Wagner! Had I to nominate a composer as THE greatest operatic composer, my vote would go to Verdi. Like Mozart and Handel, he trusted the human voice to provide much of the color and expression in his music, unlike Wagner and Bach who put much of the color into various instrumental combinations. In addition, Verdi and Handel (and Bellini) were absolute masters of the compelling diatonic melody - the simple, scale-wise rising of a melody that gains strength and beauty through its own inherent inevitability.

And now, enough of music! This is supposed to be a blog for religious discussion. If we spend too much time on music even the faithful will fall prey to music's power and could well abandon the discussion of things imagined.

What? A new era has not dawned? Only a brief reprieve?

It came too soon:

"CCNL: The Return of the Blog Fogger"

Today's topics:

"Jeremiah Wright's sermons continue to be an issue in the presidential campaign. Why? What do you think of his preaching style? What do you wish you understood better about it?"

Posted by Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham | Your Thoughts

SPIDERMAN2

You wrote, 'Jesus said "Iam the Way , the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me".

Yes, Jesus did say that and if you let it sink in, since God is a Trinity, Jesus didn't say anything about the myriad of ways to Him, did He?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

What? No endless blog-fogging by CCNL? Might this be the dawning of a new era?

Hi Spiderman,

If you are out there somewhere, thank you so much for the site.

And thanks for answering my second question about a personal saviour. I cannot reconcile these two ideas, myself.

I wonder if anyone can.

Have a wonderful night. The songs are very beautiful, all of them.

Thank you!

Farnaz

Aquarius:

Interesting....but these books have guided our civilization, as much as civilization has shaped these books.

So, the answer most have given about Levinas, now a seminal/germinal figure in academia, is to "adapt" his thinking, universalize it so that it is not sexist.

Are there universals? Have they not always harmed a particular?

But without universals, where would we be?

Farnaz

@Farnaz
The answer to that, I guess, would be something like: the past does not exist, what exists is books and they exist here and now.

Aquarius,

Levinas was not xenophobic, of course, but sexist, yes.

Farnaz

Mr. Spiderman

You want to debate an evolutionist. But there is no such thing as an evolutionist, since evolution is not a religion or a philosophy; it is settled scientific consensus. There is no philosophy of science; science is a process, and scientific consensus is an informal agreement of opinion among many scientists regarding many scientifc processes. And therefore, your debate would not really be about evolution, but about the basic processes of science, and the meaning of scientific consensus.

If you do not trust scientific consensus of scientists on matters of science, then that is fine; but the consenus of science on evolution as a settled matter remains, with or without your acknowledgement. Beyond that, what is there to debate?

Hi Aquarius:

Another thought: What of Levinas and the whole Western philosophical tradition going back to Plato and its sexist, xenophobic ways?

These questions are difficult, at least for me.

Farnaz

Aquarius:

Yes, I see. I could probably do that, but it would be quite a lengthy project, dragging me back into Jung, where I really can't go right now, since things are really piling up. Also, it is possible that Ernst Bloch has already done so. That I can try to check for you, if you'd like.

But you could probably do it yourself. Also see Bloch on Heidegger. And let me say at the outset that I not a utopianist, end of discussion. But see Bloch on Heidegger, if you haven't already done so.

Farnaz

Sorry about my last post, was a bit tongue in cheek.
As to iconoclasm, I have no objections to that.
(good site: www.politicalcompass.org/iconochasms)

What I do object to is the notion that racialism is in any way part of, or implicit in Jungian theory. To convince me, you'd have to quote from the theory itself, and this is impossible, as it explicitly states the exact opposite (as I have already pointed out).

CCNL:

If your eyeballs can be directed downward, you will also see that we have not entirely departed from your agenda.

Farnaz

Glad to see you, CCNL.

Yes, we have departed from your agenda. But it occurred to me that if their is a chink in the wall, you might take this in. You said I sounded very, very Jewish to you.

Read my post to Aquarius. Freud was Jewish, in the sense that people said he was Jewish. Do you comprehend?

He was an atheist with no doubts whatsoever about the nonexistence of God. NONE.

However, he was Jewish. Get it?

Farnaz

And the off-topic "blog hog" award for Friday 5/02/2008 goes to ???

Aquarius,

I am sorry, but I haven't invoked Godwin's law. I am saddened to hear you say so.

I was going to close with this: Freud wanted the association with Jung for as long as he could keep it, despite their theoretical differences, which were numerous. The reason? Jung was not Jewish.

Freud believed he had useful contributions to make. When psychology was referred to as the "Jewish Science" what he had to say was unheard.

Ad hominem arguments are and entirely, and I must say, not entirely, the point. Jung's racialism is in his work.

I wonder what is so terrifying to some people about some questions. For example, Jefferson was a slave owner, and some would say, a rapist (I would say that). Do we chuck Jefferson?

Shall we say he was not a slave owner and raper of the slaves he owned? Would that be a verson of Godwin's Law.

And then we have Jefferson on the American INdians. Do we see any evidence of his prejudices in his work? Yes and no? Do we chuck it all? Doesn't much matter. It's Locke anyway. Now, we move onto Locke.

I guess, then, you would prefer I not find the quotations. But, I'm compulsive, you see, so I probably will.

Godwin's Law.

So sad....

Farnaz

PS. but I do, obviously, disagree with the usefulness of some of the concepts, in the sense that better descriptions of the ideas behind them are possible.

@Farnaz
I am actually quite content with/despite all that, because
a) his concepts and theoretical views are completely anti-racialist
b) anyone who invokes Godwin's law has, by internet custom, lost the argument.
b) I am not running for president
c) he can not rise from the grave and sing 'deutschland uber alles', forcing me to declare him a fool (nor do I think he would, even if he could)
:)

E Favorite,

Are you asking me if I accept the findings of Biblical archaeology?

Then, the answer is yes, in the sense that there have been findings. However, and herein may lie the communications problem: These findings are not like those in a scientific experiment. There're significance is still very much in debate.

As well, there are sites that, to my knowledge, have not yet been excavated, for example, Tell el-Muhaffer which goes to Joshua 12:17.

Does my answer satisfy you?

Farnaz

E FAv,

Thanks! Glad to hear it.

Can you tell me what I said?

Farnaz

Hi Aqarius,

There are many Jungian apologists, and this site appears to comprise them. He absolutely did refer to Freud in racialist (what we we call racist) terms, and I will find the quotations for you as soon as things settle down a bit here.
(My sister had a baby last week and my three-year-old nephew is being deposited here at various intervals. I adore him, but reality has temporarily changed.)

I looked back at something I posted earlier to you, and I see I made an error. I believe that racism in our current sense entered the language in the 1930s.

Race, as in the English race, German race, Scottish race, is, alas, still used.

At any rate, I can understand the desperate efforts of Jungians to defend der Fader. I have a friend, a marvelous poet and a Jungian therapist, who struggles with this all the time. (Not Jewish).

Terry Eagleton, a literary critic, wrote a book called Literary Theory discrediting all kinds of folks from Hegel to Heidegger, attempting to show that from their texts one could glean their ethics, whether they developed an ethical system or not. Easy enough to say in hindsight.

With Heidegger, a contemporary saw the problems immediately. At any rate, Eagleton's book concluded with a statement that his thinking led him to accept the moral implications of theorist Paul de Man. Eagleton's work was enormously influential.

Then de Man died, and it was conveniently discovered that he had been a nazi sympathizer. No one, not even de Man idolators deny this.

But with Jung, his sympathies were known at the time. In deference to Freud, he did not react. He had his reasons not to respond to Jung's Oedipal racialist issues.

I will find the quotes, responses, etc. But certain ethical questions remain that will always interest me, although quite possibly not you! Do we chuck someone's entire body of work if we find that his life was less than exemplary?

And what of that great ethicist, Levinas, and his attitude toward women, which is in his magnum opus!!

More darkness than light?

I hope not!

Farnaz

Farnaz - you've answered implicitly - you aren't going to answer the questions. I'll surmise your motives and I won't ask again.

Aquarius:

Thanks, I'm going to check it out right now.

Farnaz

@farnaz
PS. I googled it: here's what I found:
pandc.ca/?cat=carl_jung&page=jung_nazis

(this is my second post with that link, the previous disappeared or I misposted somehow)

E Favorite:

Any person who takes me up on my request to burlesque Longfellow, is a person I would like to engage.

But, and now I am begging you, what do you mean about what I think?

Do I agree with some or all of it? Do I take exception to this or that? How have I responded to X, Y, Z?

Do you want me to say I like it/I don't like it/ I'm ambivalent?

What specifically, with reference to what would you like an answer?

For example, "Do you believe that the prosody of Hopkins was not entirely original?"

Yes.

What do you think of Campbell and his myth of the hero where Jesus is concerned?

These are concrete questions. Another might be, E Favorite, "Would you write another poem like the one you did using Chaucer? You might use Emerson, Longfellow, 'Evangeline,' for example.

Do you understand?

Yes, no, maybe, okay, here is what I want to know.....

Farnaz

PS. Drat!! I had thought of another poem for you to wreak havoc with and now it has slipped my mind entirely. Oh, yes, "The Raven," or other Poe. (I know this is another conversation, but, please, just keep it in mind.)

Arminius, E Favorite,

If you would like to look at the Tanakh from a mythic perspective, I would recommend starting with Atrahasis, which you can find in Myths from Mesoptamia (Oxford) and move on to Gilgamesh, if you haven't already read it. (ed. John Gardner, Vintage, I believe)

Start with Ramban (Rabbi Moses Ben Nachman), comment to Gen 1:1.

Then see Tikva Frymer-Kensky, "The Atrahasis Epic and the Significance of Our Understanding of Genesis 1-9, which is in the journal Biblical Archaeologist, somewhere.

But, again, you must realize that we are dealing with multiple writers, J plus subcategories, E, D, etc. writing and compiling. In no way were they merely "scribes" as CCNL would have it. They were learned men except possible one of the Js whom Bloom insists was a woman. At any rate, they appear to have different perspectives and, no doubt, different motives for writing as they did.

Dates vary as to the "canonization" of the Tanakh going form 450 BCE to about 200CE. Since the Book of the Macabbees is excluded from the Tanakh, well....

I believe the reasons for the exclusion are ethical, and I should say I'm not alone.

I would still recommend the Oxford Anthology....

Farnaz - here are the concrete questions, yet again:

"Have you seen the article starting on page 1343 of the Etz Hayim on Biblical Archeology?

Also, Have you read it? What do you think of the findings?"

If you don't want to answer or can't answer, please just say so.

Here's the same thing, in the form of a request: Please read the article and tell me what you think about it. If you decide not to read it, fine. Tell me that too.

E Favorite, Arminius,

Sorry, I meant to write Old Testament. It's weird for me to use that phrase, so I slipped!

Sorry!

Farnaz

Hi Arminius, Efavorite,

Much of the New Testament has clearly been influence by myths of the region. Joshua is still contested. But there appears to be more than one Joshua author. The archaeological debates continue endlessly. There is no simple yes/no it's this way or that answer. Reading an article or two doesn't quite do it, which is why I recommend the Oxford.

Then you have reconciliation-type theorists, such as Dever, who cannot be dismissed.

Of course, as you must know the Jesus myth was also influenced by myths of the region, and by Greek myths.

My problem with all this dabbling, and I mean no offense, is that complex material is being handled like a People Magazine discussion. Without the textual research, one might as well pack it in and go home.
Textual research is extremely important for the NT, as well.

As for Conservative Jews, I must reiterate, 250,000 copies have been sold as of two days ago, some to synagogues some to college bookstores, etc.

E FAvorite: I am still awaiting a specific, concrete question. Could you pose it if you are there?

S C Cromett - I like your idea of an Opera Karaoke bar - I bet you could get one going in NY city too.

perspective wrote " all must be experienced first hand in order to be real - beyond that, sharing is all but impossible "

I couldn't agree more.

daniel wrote "I am curious that Spiderman can have such a firmly held belief system that does not seem to make sense at all; he seems to "know" so many things that others of us also "know" are not true."

Believe me,they are true. As true as the next war with Iran or North Korea. Either of the 2. I don't know why China is next. It could be that China would pick a fight with the U.S. Im not sure.

mr. mark wrote "THAT'S HOW REAL IT APPEARS TO ME."

The Afghanistan War is real and so is Iraq. The only difference is that I knew it would happen before anybody saw it happened.

wiccan wrote "Many Pagans believe that as long the goal is to get to the "top of the mountain", whichever path you choose is the right one for you."

Jesus said "Iam the Way , the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me".

There is no other path. If you saw the right path as unfit, it means you have a blured vision and not capable of finding another route.

mr mark wrote "At least science corrects itself when it goes wrong."

How I wish that is true. Im an Engineer and trained how to handle what is fact. Those so called scientists who concocted that humans evolved are not trained as analytical thinkers. Most are biologists and anthropologists. Their brain power is more on memorization rather than pure science like math and physics. Engineers has almost 100 percent knowledge of their "creation" like buildings or bridges. In comparison, the living cell is so big a sphere and there are still a lot to learn about it. Making grandiose conclusions despite the many unanswered questions in DNA is tantamount to grandiose ignorance. At any moment, I can accept a challenge with any known evolutionist biologist that our analytical skills be compared. I can almost guarantee, he would not have a chance beating me. Not because Im smarter but because I was trained to solve analytical problems and biologist are trained to memorizing body parts.

I forgot his name but it took an engineer to enter the medical field to discover or start Synthetic Biology which is at the forefront of many biological advancements today. Before which, biology was way too primitive.

Hello Mr. Mark:)

Another fan of Sibelius! No argument with you on him. He is almost sacred for me. After all, the word fan is from fanatic, yes?

Have some heart. You are a professional musician. You are on the giving end. We are on the receiving end. Remember us in the dark hall. We have to put up with what you put out as sublime music or sledgehammer noise depending on our moods, musical taste and sensibilities. Assaulting all our senses, soothing it, challenging it? Art for art's sake, no?

Beethoven is of course right up there in the holy trinity of classical music with Bach and Mozart. With eight notes in music, and all that major and minor keys and such, it is really a compliment to say that great B created powerful and effective music with just four notes in his No. 5. I don't think he has a disco version, 'A Fifth of Beethoven' to dance to in mind when he composed it. He may be pleased. Or not.

Yes, quite an explosion the great B caused in music and explosive noise he created with his No 5, echoes of which can be heard in Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath with their tw, three or four notes thrashing of effective, reinvigorating noise.

Wagner's operas? Never go to Wagner's operas if one has never been to an opera or like classical music. Going to the ones by the other German, Mozart, and especially those by the Italians - Verdi, Rossini and Puccini helps obviously. Anyway harder to see operas by Wagner staged in any place than those by the Italians.

It is one thing to listen to opera at home. We can always skip to the good parts over the spotty or meandering ones. The first Wagner opera I saw was 'Tristan and Isolde'. Hour after hour after hour of music when one is in the mood, and noise when one is not and nursing a jet lag.

Yes, Wagner has his moments like Shaw said. In turns grand, loud, proud and sheer searing desperation of the souls expressed in his music. Most of these moments comes to you like a shock and awe wall of sound, or as beautiful music sandwiched in between long stretches of semi-sublime and sublime noise. And I have not even started on "Lohengrin'. Uhhh...

I am always impressed by the vocal pyrotechnics in a performance of Mozart's 'Der Holle Rache' in concert. Given a choice between listening to that at home or Dvorak's 'Song to the Moon' from his opera,'Rusulka', I pick "Song to the Moon'. Very soothing and soulful.

You mentioned, " There seems to be no shortage of singers who can navigate those tour-de-force arias. Queen of the Night's are a dime a dozen, compared to Tristans, who are a dollar a dozen."

I take it that men are not as interested to be opera singers anymore and less than women nowadays, thus the dearth of male talents and potential Tristans? Poor Isolde. Wagner's overture is grand, but no more man brave or interested or good enough to become a tenor to sing 'O sink hernieder, Nach der liebe' with her? A real tragedy for her and for opera.

Next time I'm free and have nothing better to do, I'll think of hitting the other keyboard instead of this one, and try not to bang out Chuck Berry's 'Roll over Beethoven' but Beethoven's No. 5 or his 'Moonlight Sonata in C sharp minor instead.

I do like some music that are a bit mathematical less perfect and some singers who slightly technically flawed. Maria Callas was flawed, but she was great, was she not? It makes us so human:)

Cheers
"J"

E Fav,

Thanks, I googled. Damned interesting stuff. I have always wondered about the OT as history. Apparently the only verifiable history begins about the time of the Babylonian Exile. I have, though, held that Abraham and Moses might be legendary. And does legend contain a grain of truth? Who knows? Anyway, I am a Trojan War fundamentalist - but I admit that is pure romanticism. There actually is, however, some archaeological evidence for it.

Arminius

Thor's Child,

Your poetic praise of my poor verse moves me. Take what you will, it gladdens my heart. I wrote it for the world, after all. Spidey's reaction was quite expected, and in a sense, a relief. If he had liked it, I would now most likely be in a hospital bed trying to recover from a major cardiac event.

Oh, yes - I am a progressive/liberal Episcopalian.

Thanks, and God bless,

Arminius

Arminius - there have been numerous references to the Etz Hayim and Biblical Archeology in this and other threads.

However, an easy and objective way to find this info without further repetition here is for you to google "Etz Hayim Biblical Archeology." I just did and found a lot of stuff, including the NY Times article that is copied in this blog.

A few comments, this has been fun thread to read.

Most people attend churches for more reasons than the sermons they hear. Friendships, routine, and fine potluck dining are but a few, and most people only change churches when a major life event happens or when the church itself has a rift in the congregation. That Obama did not abandon his church over inflammatory sermons by Wright is not surprising, and one could easily argue that his dedication to the greater church body is a better sign of his dedication to his principles than stomping out of the church over a few sermons he disagreed with ever would have been.

I think Ms. Jacoby has it right, Wright is out to generate publicity for himself, and, like Madonna and some other pop stars, he realizes that generating 'buzz' --positive or negative-- gets him name recognition and publicity for free from the media.

And now, off topic:

Mark wrote: "Here's a fun game for the religious: ... substitute "aardvarks" for god." I prefer to substitute 'Bob the Builder.'Can we build it? Yes we can! That reminds me of the old juvenile joke of turning to the back of the hymnal and appending 'between the sheets' to every hymn title. It gives whole new perspective to 'God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen,' and 'Oh Holy Night.' (It's cheap amusement when one is obligated to attend a church service.)

Bach was also a bit vain, I recall a music major friend of mine talking about him labeling high B-flat as the note 'H' and then in some pieces repeating the chord sequence B-A-C-H-B-A-C-H....

I have to point out the stark contrast between Arminius' "It's not us and them, it's WE and WE." and Spidey's reply that some will be saved and some will be damned. A more succinct summary of the difference between religious liberals and conservatives would be hard to find. I'm sure God will appreciate the time off on judgment day, given that Spidey has already done the job.

Arminius:
Well written poem, done by thee.
Perhaps Unitarian thou might be.
The last few lines I'd like to borrow,
Though offense to you would bring me sorrow:

It is not all just black and white
And none hold keys to wrong and right.
Those who project belief hold me to scorn
For all the beauty in dawn's soft morn.
We're all just humans, can't you see?
It's not us and them, it's WE and WE.

Can someone enlighten us benighted heathen about what this Etz Hayim Biblical Archeology is about?

Thanks

Farnaz -- Again – have you seen the article starting on page 1343 of the Etz Hayim on Biblical Archeology?

Also, Have you read it? What do you think of the findings?

Thanks

numbe 215 by Emily Dickinson

What is - "Paradise" -
Who live there -
Are their "Farmers" -
Do they "hoe" -
Do they know that this is "Amherst" -
And that I - am coming - too -

Do they wear "new shoes" - in "Eden" -
Is it always pleasant - there -
Wont they scold us - when we're hungry -
Or tell God - how cross we are -

You are sure there's such a person
As a "Father" - in the sky -
So if I get lost - there - ever
Or do what the Nurse calls "die" -
I shant walk the "Jasper" - barefoot -
Ransomed folks - wont laugh at me -
Maybe "Eden" a'nt so lonesome
As New England used to be!

A flow of ideas
Sacred communion of words
Your post has been held

"E Favorite:
Arminius -- maybe for a small bribe you could convince someone to let you stand on the stage and just move your lips. That's my dream for some day appearing in an opera as peasant rabble."

Hmmm...I have a sudden image in my mind of a high opera Karaoke bar. Of course, I'd probably have to build it in Milan...think of the wine list. (fruit juice for Jihadist)

I'm baffled :). This is utterly out of character, for someone who claims that mankind's next stage of development is integrating the shadow.
(but you say this is in the 30s, so maybe he changed latter)

ARMINIUS

Yes, I was the anonymous and I tried to post my reply again concerning my name to Mr Mark and it was blocked again. Some go thru and some don't. I find it rather interesting that some of the vilest slander goes thru but sometimes the simple truth is blocked, does anyone else?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum

Aquarius:

I really don't know how to tell you this, and I deeply don't want to open discussion to the Shoah, but Jung was, shall we say, pro-nazi. I don't mean to suggest that he believed in mass extermination or anything like that.

What he did believe was that the "races" should stay together. Race, if I'm not mistaken, entered the lexicon in its current sense in the 1930s. Even post the 1930s, one would hear about say, the English race, the Irish race, the German race, etc.

He resented Freud enormously, wrote what his contemporaries saw as anti-semitic nonsense. Hard to say what the specific source of his hatred was. Lacan, French, later, not Jewish, was repelled by him.

Pace the racial (?) unconscious, he believed that some unconsciousnesses were superior to others.

I'm so sorry, Aquarius, but I must sign off for awhile.

Time for nephew's nap, a bit early, but I think it's time.

Farnaz

@Farnaz
I'm quite surprised by that, actually. How is what he has writen racialist?

Hi Aquarius:

I guess what I meant was that even though Lacan was no Jungian, his psychology, at least for me, helps to explain some of the fragmentation we find within ourselves.

He didn't put it in Jungian terms, of course. You see, the Kaplan, who founded Reconstructionism, well, he pretty much did, anyway, believed that religions are socio-historic phenomena. So looking to Jung is perfectly understandable from the Reconstructionist perspective.

It is the racialism in Jung that troubles me. I don't know enough to say how Reconstructionism deals with it. On the other hand, I know "applied Jung" appeals greatly to artists, even to me.

I'm rambling. Sorry.

Farnaz

FARNAZ

To your inquiry of 5-1-8 at 11:29 PM: Free will.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Anti-K:

Thanks for the explanation. Yuck!! Revolting.

Farnaz

E Favorite,

What do you want to know, specifically? There have been many, many articles, books, from the archaeological perspective. One of the best, at least in my opinion, is The Oxford History of the Biblical world, an anthology. Have you read much
Lawrence Stager?

My three-year-old nephew is here, and is momentarily occupied, a state-of-being I don't want to disturb by leaving this room and going up to my shelves.

So, what, specifically, concretely, would you like me to answer?

Farnaz

@Farnaz
Well, it's not the arguments or lack of arguments that appeals to me in writings, nor is it theories or conclusions, but rather the concepts that the authors develop. Some concepts describe things better than other concepts, and some concepts describe entirely new areas of cognition and world views.
So, I'm very much indifferent to what specific school of thought developed a specific concept.

Farnaz,

Kabbalah Centre is "Jewish Scientology". It's all about giving them money. Lot's of money. They collect the names of the sick each week so they can 'pray for them' by telling them that they have to give money in order to heal. 'Prey on them' is more like it. They are pseudoscientific by 'explaining' the quantum technology of Kabbalistic meditation that makes their bottles of water worth $5.00 and their pieces of yarn worth $30.00. The water 'promotes healing' and can even cure cancer, while the yarn has 'power of Rachel' that protects against the 'evil eye'. The leader, 'Rav' Berg, a former insurance salesman who abandoned his wife and six children and married his former secretary, explains it thus, in his much-revered 'Ten Luminous Eminations' class (paraphrasing):

"Scientists can't even explain a trampoline. According to science, when you're jumping on a trampoline, you should stop as soon as your feet leave the canvas, since there's nothing pushing you up anymore. The scientists ignore this and just change the subject. But the Kabbalist knows the answer. It's the 'power of uplifting' that raises everything up from the earth. How does a tree grow? Up! How do you grow? Up! So only the Kabbalist knows the full 100%. Science is stuck in the 1%, and doesn't even understand that. Can scientists explain where the darkness goes when you turn on the light? No! Can scientists go back in time, or see the future, like Kabbalists can? No! Was it scientists who discovered that the sun was a 'green pigment'? No!"

This is a baaaaaaad cult. It destroys families and ruins lives. Madonna is a dolt.

Farnaz - I'm not a believer and can't respond to your questions about God.

The article in the Etz hayim, which I mentioned before, starts on page 1343 and is on Biblical archeology. While the other information you provided here is interesting, it is this article that I've been asking you to comment on.

Returning to the topic:

Again the Rev. Wright and the Muslim and Christian readers of this blog need to peruse the following poem by Kola Boof:

Published in Africa/1997:

"BINT IL NIL"

"I want a new religion.
The one our mothers had in the river.

I am tired of Jesus and Mohammed.
I am tired of man's foot.
I am tired of the White man's mother.
I am weary...from doing nothing about it.

I want my own religion.
I want my real mother.

Africa, I want you.

Make me pregnant with God.
Our own perfect babies...Black as perfection.
Tall as the sky. Healthy as light sparkling on
clear water.

I want my own religion.
I want my own voice.
I want my own face.
I want my own hair.
I am Naima/the one who is victorious
the one

who is praying"

Biography: "Diary of a Lost Girl" is the facinating autobiography of Kola Boof, the former mistress of Osama Bin Laden. She writes about the hardships of being vaginally circumcised, about witnessing her birth parents killed in her presence as a small child, about slavery and Arabism in Sudan, about being adopted and raised in the U.S. by African Americans. Kola talks candidly about love, her hopes and the future of her sons.

Hi Aquarius:

The reason I asked about Lacan is that what you wrote fits in well with his conception of other/Other, which he comes at from a post-Freudian perspective. He was not a Jungian.

As far as I can see Jung did not develop an ethics. Levinas was all about ethics.

If you know the history of Jung, then you can understand my skepticism. I'm never quite certain if ad hominem arguments are logically fallacious.

Farnaz

This thread has been off topic for days. Before returning to it, some comments about the existence of Jesus, the peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man as per Professor JD Crossan, an On Faith panelist, NT exegete and author of 25 books on the subject of the historic Jesus and related persons.

From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.

"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.

“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

See Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .

Other information:

See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.

From ask.com,

"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.

"Therefore to scotch the rumour, Nero substitured as culprits and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians. Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius by sentence of the procuator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for the moment, only to break out again in Judea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find vogue." (Tacitus, Annals 15:44; Moore & Jackson 4.282-283)

Then there are these scriptural references:
Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )

Were these scriptural stories embellished? Death on the cross was not.

From: Josephus - The Essential Works
by Paul Maier,

mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

"For Christians, books 18 through 20 of the Antiquities are far and away the most important sections in all of Josephus' writings, since they provide a rich background for the entire New Testament era. Happily, they are also the most authoritative chapters in the Antiquities since at long last Josephus is either an eyewitness of direct contemporary of the events he is reporting. His paragraphs on John the Baptist show Jesus' forerunner from a fresh vantage point, while his portrayal of crucial events in the career of Pontius Pilate help explain that governor's pressured performance at the trial of Jesus. In the case of Jesus' brother James, he even provides crucial addenda to the New Testatment, which does not tell us how James died. Josephus does!

His two celebrated references to Jesus - Antiquities 18:63 and 20:200 - have provoked an enormous quantity of scholarly literature. The constitute the largest block of first-century evidence for Jesus outside of biblical or Christian sources, and may well be the reason that the vast works of Josephus survived manuscript transmission across the centuries almost intact when other great works, like those of Nicolas of Damascus, were totally lost. "

See the rest of the article for a discussion about this question.

Daniel writes:

"Finding and accepting truth is a very difficult and complicated thing. As a general principle, I accept the consensus of scientists on matters of science. But even science goes wrong sometimes."

At least science corrects itself when it goes wrong.

I must agree with E Fav here on the silliness of presenting myth as fact. Worse is the tendency of the religious to assume "godidit" if the reason behind something hasn't yet been explained by science.

Here's a fun game for the religious: instead of proposing that god is the source of every gap that science has yet to explain, substitute the word "aardvarks" for god.

Why do people get sick? Why, the aardvarks are displeased with them. It sounds rather silly, doesn't it? Aren't we all a lot happier when science informs us that our illness has nothing to do with the displeasure of aardvarks and everything to do with bacteria and viruses?

How did mankind come to exist? Well, they were created by the aardvarks. Aren't we happier to learn we - like everything else on this planet - are an evolved life form, that the aardvarks had nothing to do with our evolution and that we need not scrape, bow and worship the aardvarks for giving us life?

How did the universe, space and time itself begin? Well, we're still working on that, but we know for a FACT that the aardvarks were somehow involved...

You catch my drift.

Hi Perspective,

I don't know what you would like me to comment on. In a discussion such as this, one would use the word "HaShem" to refer to the deity. HaShem equals Name. I suppose the simplest way to explain it would be to say that the deity cannot be named in the way that creatures can. Name is restricting and confining. Hence Adam was to name what he saw in nature.

The most literal meaning of the deity's message to Moses is probably "be." There is no subject, no conjugation.

Most serious Jews would not recommend going anywhere near the Kabbalah before one reaches the age of thirty. IN the past, it was forty. In the past, only men studied Kabbalah. Kabbalah is not surrender, as you probably know.

This Madonna stuff, as you know, isn't Kabbalah. I once saw her speak about asking her Kabbalah teacher an important question. She said he told her, "Ask what God would do."

I was absolutely speechless, but then a "lapsed" Episcopalian friend of mine, explained to me that this was a perfectly reasonable question for Christians to ask.

So....Do you know what this celebrity Kabbalah is?

Farnaz

No, I haven't heard of him.

E Ffavorite

You said,

"Speaking for myself, I'd like clergy and biblical scholars to stop presenting myth as fact."

I do not disagree with you on this. It just seems unfeasible to me. When people deviate more and more into things like, for example, the Book of Revelation, I just stop listening, so of course, then I can't argue.

Have you ever seen Kahy Griffin, when she is talking to someone who has gone so far afield that she cannot even comprehend what they are talking about? She rolls her eyes, throws up her hands, and says calmly, "I'm out."

Instead of arguing with them, I wonder, how did they come to be so mixed-up, and how come, I am not, at least to myself, mixed-up at all.

There is alot of talk here along those lines about the Book of Revelation, and about evolution. By the way, I was taught, as a little kid, in Sunday School, to beware of people who can "read" secret messages from the Book of Revelation. So of course, whenever that kind of talk starts up, I just roll my eyes, and say "I'm out."

Finding and accepting truth is a very difficult and complicated thing. As a general principle, I accept the consensus of scientists on matters of science. But even science goes wrong sometimes.

At the very beginning of a quest to discover truth and understanding about the world, there must be a sincere interest to discover and to know. That is something each person must realize for themselves; no one else can help them.

Hi Aquarius,

What you have written is very, very interesting to me. Speaking of other/Other. Have you read Jacques Lacan?

Farnaz

Fate:

"as I've said before from my own background, all must be experienced first hand in order to be real - beyond that, sharing is all but impossible. This is classically true of all deep 'inner' experience, whether achieved through contemplation and mediation, or as spontaneous experiences."

Just so, Fate. These experiences of their nature have to be unique. What is not unique is their validity. What a Christian experiences when he is saved is just as valid as what I experience when I'm in the circle.

Many Pagans believe that as long the goal is to get to the "top of the mountain", whichever path you choose is the right one for you.

Jung is not infallible, Farnaz - just draw the good bits :).
Actually, you mentioning Levinas's 'other' put Jung in entirely new perspective for me (but I haven't read Levinas - I just pondered on the concept).

What Jung calls individuation might actually all be integrating 'the other' and all stages of individuation are 'the other' along different dividing lines, in the rough order they are created by growing up, society and upbringing.

The 'anima/animus' would be the gender other.
The 'shadow' would be the foreign/outlaw other, i.e. an outsider in a social context, and along social and legal divisions.
The 'wise old man/woman' would be the 'other of different age', i.e. this is actually the same thing as the 'inner child' for old people.
The 'self' would be 'the other' as a product of the mind/universe split.
In other words, the centeredness of the senses in the body leads to a division of 'me being here', but 'me never being over there'. In that sense, the self would be an omnipresent ghostly God in a materialistic world view, but take a human form in a spiritual world view. The 'self as other' could also be a product of a causal(reasonable-in mind)/acausal(unreasonable-out of mind) split, which is pretty much the same thing as the above, and is wrongly described as 'synchronicity' by Jung.

MaryCunningham:

Thanks for your reply.

Me? Trying to trick people? Surely you jest.

I'm familiar with those and other sources. While Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius seem to attest to nothing more than the existence of a Christian movement, the Josephus references, as I'm sure you're aware, are fraught with significant difficulties. I personally think they are either interpolations intentionally added by someone like Eusebius, the "father of church history", or incorrectly copied from a margin note written by an over-zealous scribe.

While mine is admittedly a so-called "argument from the absence of evidence" and can never absolutely prove Jesus's non-existence, the fact that we find so little of *any* kind of hard evidence, when we could reasonably expect to have such (considering his miracles, post-death appearances etc), and after a 20 century search for such evidence, leads me to conclude, humbly, that the preponderance of credible, reliable evidence would not support the existence of a historical Jesus. (By the way, did you know that Eusebius believed that letters supposedly written by a *post-ascended* Jesus to a Syrian official were authentic?) If you're interested, I draw many of my conclusions from Earl Doherty's book, "The Jesus Puzzle".

I keep asking the question about Jesus and the pagan babies here because that is one of the major disconnects I consistently see Christians making regarding Jesus. One the one hand they say that Jesus was always god, but on the other they seem to completely divorce him from the actions of the god of the OT. While some may argue that god's ways are not ours and that god had some purpose for those horrifying actions (I put myself in the shoes of an Egyptian mother), I cannot get around the fact that Jesus was there too; as he was when he *chose* to create an imperfect creature that he *knew* would fail him and for whom he'd have to kill himself.

You may think that flip of me, but I view those contradictions as an example of the Gospel writers over-reaching without considering the consequences. The fact that the Triune god was ratified by the Council of Nicea, with all of its apparent political underpinnings and lack of any kind of serious recorded theological debate (by mostly anonymous participants), gives me no additional confidence or comfort.

I don't expect you, personally, to justify your faith to me, but maybe someone could give me some insight as to how those apparent contradictions are reconciled.

When I was a wee Catholic we used to collect money for "the pagan babies", which entitled us to rename them, for some reason. Consequently, there may be some poor Catholic sod in Africa today wondering why his name is Neal, a Celtic pagan name. And, just to show why there's a extra colon behind my name, when I drove a taxi in Hawaii I would tease my British costumers by pointing out that if it hadn't been for that b*stard Napoleon all of that could have been theirs. :D

Aloha

E Favorite:

I can only tell you what the Jewish Publication Society CEO told me. I started with USCJ, the logical place. They were unable to tell me how many synagogues were using the book, but were able to answer other questions. I had also corresponded with Liora, as had others, and she had also mentioned them, so I knew I was on the right path. After speaking with USCJ, I was directed to JPS.

The CEO told me that JPS had sold 250,000 copies. The book sells for over fifty dollars if bought in bulk rate, that from JPS, but both USCJ and JPS said they thought cost was a factor inhibiting purchase of the book. That was their view. You are free to contact them on your own.

I am not debating the acceptance/nonacceptance of the book. I've had it for some time. As I posted, the Rabinical Assembly (very important), USCJ, and JPS worked together to bring this book about. I had posted to Liora that I thought she would like it, and she said she ordered it. She didn't seem threatened by the book, but by the misrepresentation of what Jews believe, that 1.5 million accepted the fictionality of the Torah. Nobody told me, and nobody told either USCJ or JSP this, and, my stupid question was answered with incredulity, silence at first.

There are very few things in which any of us can say "we believe." If you know anything about Kaplan and Reconstructionism, you know what I mean.

One goal of the text had been to remove what the scholars saw as a self-denigrating tenor in the translations of the commentaries. I had always looked at the Stone edition, and hadn't noticed it there. Remember, unlike Liora, I'm not a Conservative Jew. That is one of the reasons I would like Liora to come back.

What I also like about the book is how they handle the pshah and midrash, terms Mary Cunningham can explain. The ArtScroll, for Orthodox Jews, does have a kind of post-Rashi type comment among the commentaries.

But this book is different. Both retain the original commentaries. Every week Jews read a Torah portion. Many rabbis will select a thread from one of the commentaries to read. Which thread they use is up to the rabbi. Although I felt like a moron asking this question, too, ask it I did. Are rabbis required to use lines from the new quasi midrashic commentary?

This prompted the question, "May I ask if you are Jewish?" (This after it had been quite clearly established that I was knowledgeable about Judaism.)

Similarly, I was met with incredulity when I asked if the articles were somehow incorporated into the services.

Many educated Jews have read secular biblical scholarship. I cannot imagine that every Conservative Jew would object to the articles in this Chumash. I certainly don't, but I would have liked more from some people, other, older articles appended, but I'm Sfardic, different. From simply a Jewish perspective, I would have liked to see more from Rabbi Kushner. Any Jew, the Askenazic Orthodox, included, I believe, would not dismiss him.

A couple of weeks ago, we had dinner with a couple of Askenazic Jews, and Kushner came up. Steve (Askenazic) said, "Well, I am no genius like Rabbi Kushner, but...."

Finally, what I like about the Chumash, and maybe that is the reason why it appealed to me in the first place was the broad sweep of the re-interpretive commentary. At times, I could have sworn that I saw Sfardic influence, logical, since Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist, Askenazic, Sfardic, et al,
worked together to produce this fine text.

What I dislike is Jews being misrepresented for use in an argument that seems senseless to me. I am absolutely secular. I don't know if I could be called an atheist because I sense something, but not a traditional deity.

I believe the world would be much better off without organzied religious establishments. I do not mean to offend anyone, but there you have it.

Speaking of misrepresentation, and given that Mary Cunningham has posted thrice in a row, as well as on numerous other occasions on this thread alone, obviously more qualified to speak than the rest of us to speak, there is one thing she said that I cannot let go.

Jews emphatically do not believe that God is a person. Not one among us. That is one of the very few things we agree on. To believe that God is a person is idolatry for Jews. Might as well toss the whole thing and go home.

Not one, not a single one. Where Mary Cunningham/Speed got that idea, I do not know.

As for me, personally, I'm finding myself increasingly interested in Buddhism, which Reconstructionism, that great eclectic new movement wouldn't/doesn't have a problem with. On the other hand, Reconstructionism draws heavily from Jung, and, there, in some respects, I do have a problem.

I hope I've made myself clear, because I am heartily tired of all this misrepresentation.

I would like to know, from those who believe, how they reconcile genocide and other atrocities with a traditional deity. The question for our times.

Perhaps, you can answer that for me, E Favorite, if you are a believer. I do not with to debate. I am only asking. I want to understand this.

Farnaz

PS. E Favorite, I don't know which article you're referring to.

Also, as I posted earlier to Liora on Susan's last thread, if you put two Jews in a room together, you get 100 opinions. I would imagine that some of the rabbis who have adapted the text don't go out of there way to point out the articles, while others do.

So, for example, a Reconstructionist rabbi given a Conservative Synagogue, might well do so.

In case, this is all confusing to you, the reason is that I was responding to your first post, when I saw this one.

Could you tell me your thoughts about God and genocide?

Spidey wrote:

"It's like somebody from Mars asking me, "Do you believe in water? Does it exist?" My reply would be "Of course, I just drank a minute ago."

THAT'S HOW REAL IT IS."

Translation:

THAT'S HOW REAL IT APPEARS TO ME.

Real:

Main Entry:
re·al
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, real, relating to things (in law), from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin & Late Latin; Medieval Latin realis relating to things (in law), from Late Latin, real, from Latin res thing, fact; akin to Sanskrit rayi property
Date:
14th century

Definition: "not artificial, fraudulent, OR ILLUSORY: genuine ; existing as a physical entity and having properties that deviate from an ideal, law, or standard; having OBJECTIVE INDEPENDENT EXISTENCE." (Source: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)

Tell me, Spidey, where is there a shred of objective independent evidence that god is "real?"

Daniel ITLD, you say, "And I wonder about CCNL, who wants to deflaw religion, and I suppose, by that, wipe out every theological suppostion which cannot be backed up by hard facts."

Speaking for myself, I'd like clergy and biblical scholars to stop presenting myth as fact.

Also, you say you've never read philosophy. Well, you should - you're a natural born philosopher. Don't ask me where to start - I haven't read philosophy in a long time, but I bet others here have.

Hi, farnaz - I see you've been here since I posted, but have not responded to me.

Here's my question again, this time in caps:

"I don’t recall any discussion here about the Etz Hayim article on biblical archeaology being discussed during services, only that such information existed in the new edition (starting on page 1343, which I found through the table of contents).

YOU SAY YOU HAVE A COPY – HAVE YOU SEEN AND READ THE ARTICLE YOURSELF?– you don’t mention it."

Dear Fate

You said

"I think your notion of an aesthetic of knowledge is no more than the concept of philosophy."

Perhaps.

I am not a philosopher; I have not ever taken even a single course in philosphy, but I suppose I have done some reading and thinking. Why do I go on about these things?

I am curious about the many claims to truth and certain knowledge, which all seem to be in conflict, which are posted here. I am curious about fundamentalists who claim a certain knowledge that contradicts what we know about the world, yet also, live lives that accept so much of what they say they do not believe in.

I am curious that Spiderman can have such a firmly held belief system that does not seem to make sense at all; he seems to "know" so many things that others of us also "know" are not true.

And then I am wonder about the things that others say, about how all we have to do is shake people loose from their superstitious beliefs and then scientific knowledge would take its place. And I wonder about CCNL, who wants to deflaw religion, and I suppose, by that, wipe out every theological suppostion which cannot be backed up by hard facts.

And so this all makes me wonder how do we know anything? And alot of people say, because the Bible tells us so, or the Koran tell us so, or Science tells us so. But even if you are one who puts more credence in science than in antiquated books, you still do not know first hand that science is true, because you do not do all those experiements yourself, to validate all that science says is true.

Instead, the truths of science are accepted by a pre-existing trust in the consensus of scientists, that they are telling us things about the world that are more valid than the theologians are telling us.

Sorting all of this confusion out is what I am calling the "aesthetic of knowledge," comparing it to art; that there is an art to discerning what is valid and what is not valid, and it is not just a matter of black and white, not just a matter of what the Bible tells us, or what science tells us, a special talent for discernment of truth that some people seem very good at, and others, not so good at.

Some people venture out into the a swampy morasse of fantasy, and cannot possibly understand, even basic truths about human existence. I assign to those people the status of "hopeless," meaning that it is hopeless trying to argue with them or to get them to see things a different way; only they can find their way of the swampy morass.

Dear Jihadist -

Glad to learn you're also a fan of classical music.

Yes - the Beethoven 9th is performed too often these days, as is the Mahler 2nd. My favorite Beethoven symphony happens to be the 4th. Don't get down too much on the 5th which is a great piece of music for which familiarity now breeds contempt. The influence of that piece on the music world cannot be overstated. Saying, "His No. 5 is just an extended four notes da dum da duummmmmmmm....variations, no?" is akin to saying "the Big Bang was just another run-of-the-mill explosion, no?"

Sibelius' Valse triste. You do have good taste! His music is second nature to me. I have a picture of my great-grandfather with Sibelius, as well as a few letters of correspondence between them in Swedish. Is there any piece better than his violin concerto or Tapiola?

As far as your earlier comments about Wagner - well, I'll disagree, The more one gets into Wagner the less important the loud and bombastic parts become. What was it Shaw said about Wagner? He has his moments...it's the hour-and-a-halfs that get to you? Something like that.

Queen of the Night/Zauberflote - amazing to consider how many singers can sing those two arias. After all, Magic Flute is performed at least once a week somewhere in this country, not to mention the rest of the world. There seems to be no shortage of singers who can navigate those tour-de-force arias. Queen of the Night's are a dime a dozen, compared to Tristans, who are a dollar a dozen.

My two cents on certain variations between Judaism and Christianity - as usual I'm talking from an esoteric position.

Judaism has a well established and time honored tradition in the area of mysticism and mystical practices based on Kaballah and the Zohar. At one time the Talmud restricted these secret teaching to an only elect few, and rabbinical scholars seldom ventured into this area prior to the 20th century because of these restrictions. This background is from Rabbi David A. Cooper in his forward to 'God is a Verb - Kaballah and the Practice of Mystical Judaism'.

Highly recommended reading for an introduction to Kaballah - which has unfortunately been given negative press in recent years because of the typcially over-exposed proclivities of celebrities and their fly-by-night interests e.g. Madonna and the Kabballah, et al.

In this view God is not only Not a masculine figure, but not considered in the nominative tense at all. While the Jewish faith has always had a prohibition against using the true name of God as an utterance, the fact is, there is no name for What the word God represents. The Rabbi believes that this Divine and Absolute force is more easily and accurately seen as a process.

As in most esoteric traditions, this process remains unmanifest in It's essence, and is known only by It's manifestations. People just yak, yak, yak about the truth of their religion when in fact they're infinitely far from the real Truth, at least in so far as mystical insight is concerned.

There are two levels of truth in religious beliefs and religious practice - exoterica and esoterica. What we see referenced in these threads for the most part refers to the former.

True NT/biblical references to mystical occurrances are relatively rare - e.g. Paul is taken up to the 7th heaven (whether bodily or in spirit he can't say) where he discovers things that can't be revealed - why? Because there were probably no words to describe the experience.

Many of the parables and sayings of Jesus are cloaked in obscurity to the point of being almost indecipherable - why? Because these revealed 'truths' are very hard to describe on a second hand basis..... as I've said before from my own background, all must be experienced first hand in order to be real - beyond that, sharing is all but impossible. This is classically true of all deep 'inner' experience, whether achieved through contemplation and mediation, or as spontaneous experiences.

Farnaz, your comments are most welcome!

Cockatrice = Thermonuclear Bomb!!!!

Arminius-

"Did you really make that reply to Spidey? If so, please accept my apology. That completely unhinges me."

No apologies necessary, my dear. You have to see the passage through Spidy's eyes, and once I realize that his worldview is apopcalyptic, everything fell into place. According to his particular theology, Israel must be detroyed before the return of the Christ can happen, therefore, Israel is "he whose rod is broken". Who would rejoice if Israel was destroyed? Many in Palestine. The last part was trickier. "for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice,": My take on this is that Jesus came first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles. America, as a "Christian nation" could be said to have come from the serpent's root. And as America is mightier than Israel (the serpent), it must be represented by something grander, the cockatrice. "and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent." This is the American airforce, dealing death from above.

Is the prophecy true? Not according to my worldview. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Neil wrote " I'd be very interested to know what historical evidence you've seen that proves Jesus's existence to your satisfaction. "

There was a time when I was much younger that I wish I were one of the Apostles of Jesus so that I can be sure that He really knows me. I had fears that on Judgment Day, he would tell me, "I don't know you". I thought then that how lucky were the 11 Disciples. They have a personal relationship with Christ. Sometimes I would ask in my mind "Lord isn't it unfair that you gave the Apostles the chance to be with you but how about the others and me? How I wish I was born during your time so I can follow you just like them?"

That was before but not now. Being born-again is having that personal relationship experience with Jesus Christ even he is not physically present.

The world may say that Jesus is a myth but it doesn't affect you coz you're sure He really does exist. The reason is not because of the account of others that you believe Christ exist but thru your own personal experience with Him.

It's like somebody from Mars asking me, "Do you believe in water? Does it exist?" My reply would be "Of course, I just drank a minute ago."

THAT'S HOW REAL IT IS.

The Lord will reveal Himself to you if you seek Him earnestly.

"But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." (Deuteronomy 4:29)

C ya later guys. I just dropped by.

Mary Cunningham:

With respect, I don't know what your problem is. Your "some would" sounds a great deal like "Speed" to me. I've only seen a couple of posts from Hopeless Case, if that is what you mean by HC.

Afraid "the Jews" are going to gobble everything up?

Liora hasn't posted in a couple of weeksunfortunately. You post quite a bit, and with great authority, I might add.

The Jewish conception of God? What is it prithee tell? When did the mainstream acceptance begin? When end?

If I offended you in some way, there was no intent.

I'm sorry if Jews make you nervous. Yet, here we are.

Catholics don't trouble me, so I'm okay.

Re: the Hebrew Bible.

Hate to say it, but maybe spiderman or Canyon Shearer if you don't taunt him will answer this better.

Remember you're talking to a Catholic whose knowledge of the Hebrew portion (save the psalms one of which we read every Sunday) consists of a little Isaiah, but mostly parables and verses in the New Testament which set out various proofs that Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Scriptures: that he was God, the God of the Hebrew Bible, the God who would not let Moses, Abraham or any of the prophets (real or composite) see his face.

This is why, for me, the sudden (awful!) realization by Peter at the lake of (?) gennesaret that this man--Jesus--was the Christ, the apostle falling to his knees and begging Jesus to leave him ("When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord" Luke 5:1-8)
...is so compelling. The Jewish concept of God was correct: that he was one, a person and a spiritual identity. How could He thus be in front of Peter?

It was a fraught moment.

Why do I think you want to trick me Neal? But there is evidence from Jewish sources: Josephus on the description of Jesus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger on the Persecution of the Christians as well as the Magdalen papyrus carbon dated which has an extant gospel of Matthew at about AD 70-80.

The latest academic work is by Martin Goodman (cannot link just add www)amazon.co.uk/Rome and Jerusalem:Clash of Ancient Civilizations or try (again add http)snipurl.com/26su3

DON'T CALL ME FATSO!!!!!!

MaryCunningham:

As I respect your knowledge of history, I'd be very interested to know what historical evidence you've seen that proves Jesus's existence to your satisfaction.

Also, if Jesus is an eternal, indivisible part of the Trinity, how is he not responsible for the slaughter of Egyptian and Canaanite babies, as detailed in the OT? Can you refer me to any OT prophesies where god explicitly revealed that he had a "son" who he would send to redeem mankind through a death of atonement?

Mahalo

Farnaz/Liora/Hopeless Case

all 3?/2?/1?--some trinity!--wanted to know why only one believer answered the question "why has God hidden his face away from us"?

With all due respect Farnaz/Lieora/HC post a great deal. The uncharitable would call them a blog hog but I won't. However, I can't be unusual in scrolling through most of the posts.

But the answer to the question is: God has showed us his face. He became a man and walked among us. He revealed himself in Jesus Christ (of which there *is* historical evidence).

I am one of those that believe this...as much as I believe the sun will rise tomorrow (although I might not see it this being England and rainy).

Hello Farnaz/Liora (in case she’s lurking nearby)

I don’t recall any discussion here about the Etz Hayim article on biblical archeaology being discussed during services, only that such information existed in the new edition (starting on page 1343, which I found through the table of contents).

You say you have a copy – have you seen and read the article yourself? – you don’t mention it.

I first heard about The NY Times article CCNL cites here in an On Faith response (not from CCNL), then started my own research, including the visit to a nearby synagogue. I thought I might have to snoop around for a copy, so was pleased and surprised to see them lined up in the pews, as if they are used frequently in services. They are indeed big books. I’d say $50 is a bargain.

One of the articles I found about the Etz Hayim implies that Rabbis don’t go out of their way to point out that section and that in a book so thick, people could easily miss it. Nonetheless, there it is, in an official book of Conservative Judaism.

DITLD,
I think your notion of an aesthetic of knowledge is no more than the concept of phylosophy. Plilosophers have been trying for centuries to determine what is real and what is not, what is truth and how it can be known to be truth. "I think therefore I am" was the accepted phylosophical proof that we exist at all. Now I have not studied phylosophy, but I think that is the realm you are touching on.

My favorite phylosophical question: "Why is there air?" Bill Cosby answers this by saying "there is air to blow up volleyballs and blow up basketballs".

>>I read What? as really bad. Much worse than Spidey. I hope I am wrong.

>>Arminius

>>May 1, 2008 7:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments

>>Posted on May 1, 2008 19:45

>>Arminius:
>>What?,

>>.....That you spent your life judging your fellow man,

Seems Arminius is quite a judge himself. Also a schmoozer with Mr. Mark and vice-versa.

See how they leave out that What? stated clearly that the end of it all, if you will, will be beyond anyones dreams..(by the way, guys, he was referring to the kingdom of God...you know, new heaven, new earth...not so bad, huh...when compared to todays headlines)

Gimme a break. Schmoozers united on this thread for sure.

Huh...

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

How can one enjoy themselves with the "fems" aka the flaws, errors, muck and stench of Islam staring at us on the front page of the global news 24/7 ???????

And all because of one illiterate, hallucinating, warmongering, womanizing and long-dead Arab!!!

Hello Arminius,

Ay, ay, ay! First music, then poetry, now music again in Ms. Jacoby's threads. Oh, why not. Just set Edna St. Vincent Millay's or Sylvia Plath's selected poetry to Philip Glass' music.

I had thought Beethoven is a brand of German root beer, and a fellow who got into a fight and roll over as recounted by Chuck Berry in one of his songs. Until I read On Faith threads.

Beethoven's Symphony No.9? Most sublime noise ever know to man. So said EM Forster in his "Howards End". Or did he say created by man? No matter. It is a most sublime noise.

Nowadays, when I do put on Beethoven's symphonies at home, it's either his Sympnony No. 6 or No. 7, not No. 9. No 9's Finale is so often, too often played. It' a sort of EC "national" anthem too.
His No. 5 is just an extended four notes da dum da duummmmmmmm....variations, no?

Johnny Cash? I've heard his 'San Quentin' and 'A Boy Named Sue' too. Only country singer I like is Patsy Cline. But then, I'm most partial to dead lady singers from Bessie Smith to Billie Holiday to Mahalia Jackson to Carmen McCrea Edith Piaf to Nina Simone.

No one in other musical genres can sing like anyone who, as the Queen of the Night, sings Mozart's 'Der Holle Rache' in his "Die Zauberflote". A human voice can do that? And in "Die Zauberflote" too? Is that not for kids?

Lucia Popp is dead too. So is Beethoven. So is Mozart. But these dead composers and singers leave behind their music and their voices to delight, to impress, to entertain, to trouble, to soothe, to uplift us.

Puts me in the mood now to listen to Sibelius' "Valse Triste".

You people, you! Classical music and poetry dorks, nerds and geeks! So retro.

There's rap - blending poetry and music and dance!:)

Cheers.

"J"

--------------------------------------------------

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

On to Farnaz now?

Do take time out to listen to Saint-Saens' "Samson and Delilah" with a nice bottle of Methode Tasmanoise sparkling wine. Or any other music you like.

You got time to read poetry, surely you got time to listen to a bit of music? Love that poetry you chose to post and repost. It's you.

Come on, pussycat. It's okay to share with us what you like every once a while. Just as the time you said you sing "Grace" in Gregorian chant as a family tradition. It won't diminish your reputation as an ever vigilant "Realist" and "Thumper" and reminder of "Reality" and "Truth".

I won't crucify you in my posts if you do.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

New York Times
ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002
New Torah For Modern Minds
By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT) 1775 words
origin: query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

"New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document.

''When I grew up in Brooklyn, congregants were not sophisticated about anything,'' said Rabbi Harold Kushner, the author of ''When Bad Things Happen to Good People'' and a co-editor of the new book. ''Today, they are very sophisticated and well read about psychology, literature and history, but they are locked in a childish version of the Bible.''

''Etz Hayim,'' compiled by David Lieber of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, seeks to change that. It offers the standard Hebrew text, a parallel English translation (edited by Chaim Potok, best known as the author of ''The Chosen''), a page-by-page exegesis, periodic commentaries on Jewish practice and, at the end, 41 essays by prominent rabbis and scholars on topics ranging from the Torah scroll and dietary laws to ecology and eschatology.

These essays, perused during uninspired sermons or Torah readings at Sabbath services, will no doubt surprise many congregants. For instance, an essay on Ancient Near Eastern Mythology,'' by Robert Wexler, president of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, states that on the basis of modern scholarship, it seems unlikely that the story of Genesis originated in Palestine. More likely, Mr. Wexler says, it arose in Mesopotamia, the influence of which is most apparent in the story of the Flood, which probably grew out of the periodic overflowing of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The story of Noah, Mr. Wexler adds, was probably borrowed from the Mesopotamian epic Gilgamesh.

Equally striking for many readers will be the essay ''Biblical Archaeology,'' by Lee I. Levine, a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. ''There is no reference in Egyptian sources to Israel's sojourn in that country,'' he writes, ''and the evidence that does exist is negligible and indirect.'' The few indirect pieces of evidence, like the use of Egyptian names, he adds, ''are far from adequate to corroborate the historicity of the biblical account.''

Similarly ambiguous, Mr. Levine writes, is the evidence of the conquest and settlement of Canaan, the ancient name for the area including Israel. Excavations showing that Jericho was unwalled and uninhabited, he says, ''clearly seem to contradict the violent and complete conquest portrayed in the Book of Joshua.'' What's more, he says, there is an ''almost total absence of archaeological evidence'' backing up the Bible's grand descriptions of the Jerusalem of David and Solomon.

The notion that the Bible is not literally true ''is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis,'' observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to ''Etz Hayim.'' But some congregants, he said, ''may not like the stark airing of it.'' Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that ''virtually every modern archaeologist'' agrees ''that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all.'' The rabbi offered what he called a ''litany of disillusion'' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have ''found no trace of the tribes of Israel -- not one shard of pottery.''

The reaction to the rabbi's talk ranged from admiration at his courage to dismay at his timing to anger at his audacity. Reported in Jewish publications around the world, the sermon brought him a flood of letters accusing him of undermining the most fundamental teachings of Judaism. But he also received many messages of support. ''I can't tell you how many rabbis called me, e-mailed me and wrote me, saying, 'God bless you for saying what we all believe,' '' Rabbi Wolpe said. He attributes the ''explosion'' set off by his sermon to ''the reluctance of rabbis to say what they really believe.''

Before the introduction of ''Etz Hayim,'' the Conservative movement relied on the Torah commentary of Joseph Hertz, the chief rabbi of the British Commonwealth. By 1936, when it was issued, the Hebrew Bible had come under intense scrutiny from scholars like Julius Wellhausen of Germany, who raised many questions about the text's authorship and accuracy. Hertz, working in an era of rampant anti-Semitism and of Christian efforts to demonstrate the inferiority of the ''Old'' Testament to the ''New,'' dismissed all doubts about the integrity of the text.

Maintaining that no people would have invented for themselves so ''disgraceful'' a past as that of being slaves in a foreign land, he wrote that ''of all Oriental chronicles, it is only the Biblical annals that deserve the name of history.''

The Hertz approach had little competition until 1981, when the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, the official arm of Reform Judaism, published its own Torah commentary. Edited by Rabbi Gunther Plaut, it took note of the growing body of archaeological and textual evidence that called the accuracy of the biblical account into question. The ''tales'' of Genesis, it flatly stated, were a mix of ''myth, legend, distant memory and search for origins, bound together by the strands of a central theological concept.'' But Exodus, it insisted, belonged in ''the realm of history.'' While there are scholars who consider the Exodus story to be ''folk tales,'' the commentary observed, ''this is a minority view.''

Twenty years later, the weight of scholarly evidence questioning the Exodus narrative had become so great that the minority view had become the majority one.

Not among Orthodox Jews, however. They continue to regard the Torah as the divine and immutable word of God. Their most widely used Torah commentary, known as the Stone Edition (1993), declares in its introduction ''that every letter and word of the Torah was given to Moses by God.''

To my knowledge the NY Times did not publish a retraction to the above.

And just what is the name of the CEO of the Jewish publication group you contacted?

And if you are going to judge a publication by its age, the OT would long ago have been put on the deserved myth pile.

T,

At the simplest possible level, you are guilty of single-system seeing. You cannot see outside your own identity.

You do not accept the varied subjectivites that exist in the world. The poetry you posted goes to postcolonial thinking, to valuing indigenous religions, to valuing indigenous language, and even to regionalism viz political economy.

These poets, writers, etc., are not all quite so literal as you. They want to heal the damage done to them for generations from colonialist barbarity.

ONe of the reasons for the new Chumash was to free us from some of the apologetic nature of the old conservative Chumash.

Do you know what some of those people who wrote that book saw? What my uncle saw? Others in my family? For one thing, British soldiers firing on a ship carrying refugees from the Holocaust. He saw that. He watched them being imprisoned in Cypress. Why? The Emirates, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and British Petroleum.

One of my closest friends is a Pakistani Muslim. At conferences, she always seeks out two Israelis. They came together as postcolonial identities.

The complexity of the world is more than you care to look at.

My family fled Iran in the middle of the night. We were not religious, to say the least, not observant nothing. When we came here, people thought I was Arab. When they found out I was of Jewish parentage, I learned I had not left racism anti-Jewish racism behind.

Read Speed.

You cannot get more secular than I. That isn't the issue.

Farnaz

CCNL:

I read it. USCJ is the definitive source. I don't know what to tell you about Wikepedia or what was thought in 2000 or 2001. You can contact them yourself USCJ yourself.

I spoke to the CEO of the Jewish Publications Society, since I had read Liora's post on that. JPS, I already knew, distributes a lot of sacred texts.

They have sold 250, 000 copies. Perhaps, you can tell them how much they really sold based on your readings in Wikepedia.

Also, you can easily look at the book yourself. Find a synagogue. See how it's used. E FAvorite saw it in a synagogue.

Ask any rabbi on the planet if the articles are used in services.

FACTS, REALITIES

Ask any rabbi what he does with the articles. Ask Rabbi Wolpe what other rabbis do. Ask anyone.
Ask Wikepedia.

MOre:
The something else I'm transitioning into is not belief in a traditional deity, I assure you.

Also, I will always be very Jewish. I could be an atheist, the daughter of atheists (sort of was, but that's another story), but in this world, I could just as soon be non-Jewish as non-brown.

Rabbi Wolpe is not the only rabbi who accepts the findings of archaeolgists, linguists, textualists, etc. What does that have to do with anything? Rabbi Kushner's views are fairly close to my own, except that I'm Sfardic, and probably more of a skeptic than he on certain matters.

It is not necessary to believe in the historical existence of MOses. Judaism is not Christianity. NOt every Jew would agree with me, but quite a number would.

It is the MEANING of Moses that intrigues and inspires.

Rabbi Wolpe never said that 1.5 million, 1.7 million, etc. Jews accepted the fictionality of some or much of the Tanakh or Torah. Not in 2000 and never since. He did not say that 18 people accepted it. Your words.

You said that, CCNL, to make your point. AGAIN

Further, the Chasidic population has grown enormously, and, interestingly, the Traditional Orthodox has gathered new members. Reconstructionism is growing. HOw can USCJ give a definitive answer on numbers. To complicate matters, you have Orthodox rabbis in Conservative synoagogues, Reconstructionist rabbis in conservative synagogues. There is at least one Orthodox synagogue that is using Etz Hayim, and the rabbi is also Orthodox.

Sooo?

I've heard Roman Catholic priests explain the trinity as a metaphor. Is that the prevailing view?

What do you want CCNL?

You belong to a church, so stop this nonsense or ditch the church. I am not a member of a synagogue, never have been, although occasionally I attend services.

Ditch the 30% and stop being ridiculous. If you want to get "factual" accept the "fact" that the historical Jesus is still in doubt, that Paul was probably always Paul.

My own opinion? I mean no offense to anyone. We'd probably be much better off without organized religion, end of discussion, without it, new age or otherwise. Without nation states that exploit religion, bond themselves to it, including this one.

Want to attend to something important? Think about the causes of genocide. Religion is a component, but not the only one.

Sudanese and others are dying as I type.

Farnaz

Arminius, Arminius, Arminius,

Hmmm, what bothers you now? Not agreeing with what many NT exegetes have concluded about the historic Jesus? What is being taught is some large Catholic university theology classes? The "fems" of Islam and/or Christianity? Limbo? Original sin? Profits instead of prophecies? Pretty wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingies? The demons of the demented? Being Born, Bred, and Brainwashed in Henry VIII's religion?

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

For one "transitioning to something else, you appear to still be very Jewish.

Rabbi David Wolpe still is a major spokesperson for Conservative Judaism in the US and from what I can tell (see bio via Wikipedia and Google), he has not changed his views that the OT/Torah is mostly myth.

And also as per Wikipedia:

"The National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS), most recently performed in 2000-01, is a representative survey of the Jewish population in the United States sponsored by United Jewish Communities and the Jewish Federation system.

Based on the results of the 2000-01 survey, the total Jewish population in the United States was estimated at 5.2 million, comprised of 4.1 million adults and 1 million children. An additional 100,000 Jews in institutional settings were not sampled as part of NJPS but are included in the total. This total represents a decline from the 1990 NJPS, which estimated a total Jewish population of 5.5 million people."

"33% of the Jewish population in 2000-01 were Conservative Jews."

i.e 1.7 million Conservative Jews total.

Hopeless Case:

This is for you. You've probably seen it, but here it is anyway.

Musee des Beaux Arts
W.H. Auden

About suffering they were never wrong,
The Old Masters; how well, they understood
Its human position; how it takes place
While someone else is eating or opening a window or just walking dully along;
How, when the aged are reverently, passionately waiting
For the miraculous birth, there always must be
Children who did not specially want it to happen, skating
On a pond at the edge of the wood:
They never forgot
That even the dreadful martyrdom must run its course
Anyhow in a corner, some untidy spot
Where the dogs go on with their doggy life and the torturer's horse
Scratches its innocent behind on a tree.
In Breughel's Icarus, for instance: how everything turns away
Quite leisurely from the disaster; the ploughman may
Have heard the splash, the forsaken cry,
But for him it was not an important failure; the sun shone
As it had to on the white legs disappearing into the green
Water; and the expensive delicate ship that must have seen
Something amazing, a boy falling out of the sky,
had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly on.

Hopeless Case:

Yes, I noticed it:

"And the rest is silence."

Goodnight, Hopeless Case,
Farnaz

Farnaz:

Did you notice that only one believer answered your question about why "God has hid his face from us"?

Goodnight, Spiderman, and thank you again!!

Farnaz

FACTs REALITY (in CCNL's sense)*

1) Delusion: 1.5 million Conservative Jews blah, blah, and blah.

2.)Fact: The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism cannot and will not state the precise number of Conservative Jews in America, because they do not know. There are, for example, persons who are not members of Conservative Synagogues, but attend services anyway, etc.

3.) Delusion: 1.5 million (???) have accepted the fiction of the Old Testament.

4.) Reality: The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, Rabinic Assembly, and Jewish Publication Society gathered together an impressive assembly of scholars to produce the new Chumash (Torah with commentary ending in the medieval period.) This book, they have named Etz Hayim.

The objective was to create a bilingual edition which corrected for earlier English translation problems and add newer commentary, much of it commenting on the older commentary, (This has been done since the beginning of the Rabinic Period, but written commentary in the Chumash, ended many centuries ago, with a recent exception: see below*)

5.) Fact: All of the original commentary has been retained.

6.) Fact: Etz Hayim, one of CCNL's flags (now faded, no doubt, in his vision of the new world order) was available for distribution in 2001 (source: Jewish Publication Society).

Fact: Since 2001, 250,000 copies have been sold. Some have been sold to synagogues, others to students in Jewish or Religious Studies classes, etc.

Worth repeating: 250,000 copies have been sold.
(source: Jewish Publication Society)

7.)Fact: Often when the rabbi reads the weekly Torah portion, she will Choose a thread of commentary to comment on. No one, and that does mean no one, would ever presume to tell a rabbi which commentary to focus on.

He may choose from any, Rashi, the normative, or any other medieval or ancient commentator. He may choose from among the scholars who have added commentary (Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, REconstructionist, Sfardic, and Askenasic). IN short, she may do as she wishes.

8.) Fact: There are articles appended to the back (I own the book, as I have posted.). I like them, but I can see why another poster would have liked to see other authors included.

The articles are not used in services as we have been repeatedly trying to tell CCNL. Walk into a synagoge and see for yourself, that is if you can find one using that Chumash. I believe E Favorite has.

They cannot be used in services. Could a priest read from Crossan during mass? Doesn't the priest have other things to do?

USCJ, the Rabinic Assembly, and JSP will not say who accepts or believes what with respect to the Torah (the stupid question I asked them to end CCNLs monomaniacal posts). All of those who worked on this text reached agreement on what should be appended, as well as on translations, etc. That was their goal, and they achieved it, admirably I would say.

This text was the work of Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist, Sfardim, Askenazim (google terms CCNL so that you will know that of which you speak.) That plurality shows.

Part of the problem with synagogues getting the book is the cost. Even with a discount for bulk sales, the cost is more than fifty dollars, and synagogues have many expenses, donations to make, help to give, classes to run, etc.

*Artscroll put out a Chumas for Orthodox Jews. These divisions--Orthodox, Conservative, etc., are also problematic, CCNL, but I won't go into that now.

Best advice: Know something about what you speak.

Second best advice: Read what others write, and attend to the substance of what they say.

Third best advice: Do not use six-year-old articles to base current statistics on, and do not attribute to those articles claims they did not make.

My problem is with your misrepresentations. I like the Chumash. I am an agnostic in transition to something else.

LIORA: I'm sorry, but I didn't know if and when you would return to this blog to post what you'd discovered. And CCNL's endless erroneous posting gave me intermittent headaches.

Here's good music for everyone. Visit this site and hear it. Goodnight everyone.

www.imeem.com/people/jlTdHkz/music/2KqAfe3V/cathedrals_ernie_haase_redemption_draweth_nigh

Farnaz, I hope that the Lord will reveal himself to you. You're a great person. Im sure He has a plan for you.

Well, all, enough is enough. It is late.

To Mr Mark: my respect.

To Jihadist and Wiccan: my love.

To Spidey and CCNL: stuff it.

A last entry of poetry and song:

In the silence of the darkness when all are fast asleep
I live inside a dream calling to your spirit
As a sail calls the wind, hear the angels sing

Far beyond the sun across the western sky
Reach into the blackness find a silver line
In a voice I whisper a candle in the night
Well carry all our dreams in a single dream of light

Close your eyes, look into the dream
Winds of change will winds of fortune bring

Fly away to a rainbow in the sky gold is at the end for each of us to find
There the road begins where another one will end
Here the four winds know who will break and who will bend
All to be the master of the wind

Sung by Manowar.

Good night all.

Arminius

Hi Farnaz,

You wrote "Okay, but I don't quite understand how what you write fits in with the idea of Jesus Christ as a personal savior. "

For me it was not that easy to have Jesus as a personal savior. I've been attending church for many years thinking I have Jesus by listening to what the preacher said that "if you receive Him, you will have Him". It doesn't work that easy always. To some it does but to many like me, it didn't happen. As I read the Bible myself, I began to see that not all the preacher's words were "Bible based". I mean I don't agree to their interpretation.

There came a time that I blame Christ because "Christians" do evil things. But He showed to me that they are NOT CHRISTIANS. They only claim to be Chrtistians but they are not. I slowly understood who the real Jesus is and what Im posting here is the true Jesus. Many so called "believers" here deride me for my IDEAS. All these "Christian" or "former Christian" people are all false Christians.

Every thing that I say will happen. If Jihadist truly believes that she's a Philistine and will try to live in Palestina for the next 15 years or less, she will DISSOLVE.

Time will reveal the truth. Let's wait just a while and see how they will all unfold.

FACTS REALITY (test) -

Farnaz, is that you? Apparently the blocker has gone psychotic again. Damn.

Arminius

Mr Mark,

You've got one hell of a resume! Sung in Turandot? Holy you-know-what! I am impressed.

I got to witness that opera constructed in Atlanta. Since my daughter was in it, I got to go there and see it being practiced, met the singers, went backstage, saw the rehearsals. Quite an education. The tenor, Eduardo Villa, was damn good. Not Pavarotti, but close. His live, up close and personal, "Nessun dorma", blew me away.

Arminius

Jihadist, Jihadist, Jihadist,

You still cannot come to grips with the flaws, errors, muck and stench aka "the fems" of Islam. You never address these issues but simply distract, distract, distract e.g. the "angel" and Shiite issues are somehow impossible for you to address. Even "crucifying" Shiites did not bring a comment like "I would never harm a Shiite". Or "Shiites are my equal". Why oh why is this???????? Apparently like all Sunnis crucifying a few Shiites would not bother you. Why, especially when those of other faiths or no faiths were offended by the statement? Apparently crucifying Jesus was a necessary element of Christianity. I guess crucifying a Shiite would make them too "Jesus" like. Better to cut off their heads!!!!

Again the "fems" of Islam for your perusal and commentary:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3 That Shiites are less than human or Sunnis are less than human depending on what Islamic cult you belong to.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

And no comments about the poetry of Kola Boof??? And how the Rev. Wright and Muslims might learn a lot from it??

To reiterate:

"BINT IL NIL"

"I want a new religion.
The one our mothers had in the river.

I am tired of Jesus and Mohammed.
I am tired of man's foot.
I am tired of the White man's mother.
I am weary...from doing nothing about it.

I want my own religion.
I want my real mother.

Africa, I want you.

Make me pregnant with God.
Our own perfect babies...Black as perfection.
Tall as the sky. Healthy as light sparkling on
clear water.

I want my own religion.
I want my own voice.
I want my own face.
I want my own hair.
I am Naima/the one who is victorious
the one"

Hi, Mr Mark,

Yes, I am quite aware that the 4th movement of Ludvig's glorious 9th is the 'Ode to Joy'. Not religious. My comment was an add-on opinion. Also, a story here. My favorite recording of that symphony is Bernstein's, done in Berlin after the fall of the hated wall. He substituted 'Freiheit' for 'Freude', that is, 'Freedom' for 'Joy'. When in the army, I was stationed in West Berlin in 1970, and there learned to hate the wall and the oppressive regime in the East. When I heard 'Freiheit, schoene Gotterfunken' sung, I wept, and screamed 'FREIHEIT'!!!

Ah, yes, Old Bach. The Master. I love all of Bach, indeed, all music of that time. My favorite Bach is the Brandenburgs, totally secular.

Arminius

Arminius -

Glad to hear you enjoy "Turandot." I have sung in the chorus for that opera a number of times, including singing the off-stage voice of the Prince of Persia in the first act. They usually have a well-built dancer who parades around the stage as the Prince of Persia until Turandot gives him the thumbs down. He's then led off to be beheaded behind the scene. I was the guy who had the pleasure of singing the name "Turandot!" on a high A as the ax falls backstage.

I also ended up singing the part of the heralds who open Act 3 right before the tenor sings his famous aria, "Nessun dorma."

A fun opera to see...even more fun to be in.

Hi Spiderman,

Okay, but I don't quite understand how what you write fits in with the idea of Jesus Christ as a personal savior.

In other words, there have been Christian fundamentalists, who have led good lives, fully accepted Christ into their lives, etc., and yet they have been murdered, suffered from illness, famine, etc.

If Christianity concerns not only the people but each person, with his personal savior, personal relation to God, how is that possible?

Farnaz

Hi Farnaz,

Thanks for asking.

You wrote " Why is there genocide in the Sudan, just for an example? Whay has there been genocide after genocide after genocide in this century? "

Jesus Christ came to this earth despite the knowledge that he will be crucified. He wants to warn the people of their beliefs that it will lead to their damnation on earth and after life. If only all the people who have heard truly believe Him, there would be no trouble by this time.

But the Lord's words had settled to many a people's heart. And those people would establish a new world order that is filled with righteouness and peace. 1000 years of peace.

But the devil's people has other things in their mind. They will impose their new world order and they would be succesful for some time. It will culminate to a very big destruction and the last man standing would be the "chosen one" who will truly rule the world in true peace and justice for a thousand years.

Jesus said "My yolk is easy and my burden is light". anybody who carries that yolk are the happiest people alive. I lived as an "unbeliever" for a time and it's hell on earth. As I slowly took the yolk, it became a different world, a much lighter world.

False religion is the scourge of this world and it will rear it's very ugly head very soon.

About Sudan, It's a place that is ruled by false religions.

Oh, God, Jihadist,

You CAN'T be that much of a Philistine!

Listen to Johnny Cash singing 'San Quentin', his glorious prison song. It will turn you around.

Go to a live opera. The power and beauty of the human voice at its best will astound you.

Hear Beethoven's 9th symphony. He reached up to touch heaven.

There is hope for you. Here is beauty that you have missed, and your life is the poorer for it.

Arminius

Arminius writes:

"I firmly held that Beethoven, when he composed his incredible 9th, reached up and touched heaven."

I have often mentioned on this blog that the finale to the 9th is hardly a religious work. It is a hymn to brotherhood. The god mentioned in Schillers' text is the god of nature.

While I respect your imagery of Beethoven reaching up and touching heaven, I look at it the other way - that god must have looked down and said, "I wish that I had the chops to write something like that."

"And a further note on religious music: Bach? Huh? How about old Johann, huh? Lots of good religious works. His mass? OMG! I know damn well you do not disparage Bach, I just don't know what you meant by "music that is entirely based on religious inspiration, ie: music devoid of skill, craft and art, infused with the saccharine beliefs and emotions of the amateur."

Enlighten me!"

Bach's absolute mastery of musical composition is apparent in everything he wrote, and while he dedicated many of his compositions to the glory of god, the fact is that he was a well-trained and creative composer who would have written great music had he gone about setting the phone book to music. His non-religious works no more need "inspiration" from god than did his sacred works. The absolute truth is that all of his works are EXCLUSIVELY the product of his own very human mind.

But bach's genius extends far beyond simply writing great music. Did you know that Bach was into numerology, and that he was fascinated with the fact that his surname (Bach) added up to the number 14, while his surname plus initials (JS Bach) added up to 41? The "mirroring" of his name intrigued him.

In college, I conducted his church cantata BWV 4, "Christ lag in Todesbanden." The cantata begins with a 14-bar instrumental introduction. The subsequent 7 movements have their themes mirrored, ie: movement 1 mirrors movement 7, movement 2 mirrors movement 6, etc.. The central movement is an extended chorale. Musical commentators point out that this arrangement of movements is an aural rendering of the design of a gothic church.

Listen to Bach's St Matthew Passion sometime. When you reach the part near the end where the Evangelist sings of the veil of the temple being rent in two upon Jesus' death, you'll notice that he is accompanied by a cello playing some very quick notes. Add those notes up and you'll find that they provide a numeric map to chapters and verses in the OT that reference the veil being rent. Bach played his numeric games even here.

His Mass in B Minor is indeed a great work, but - like most Baroque composers - he had no problems recycling earlier pieces he had written and adapting them to fit his Mass (a work that was never performed in his lifetime, though he bound the work together). In other words, the "inspiration" for the Mass in B Minor comes from many of his previously written works, most of them religious in nature, of course, but in some cases with large revisions to make their appearance in the Mass.

see here: ...http://www.aam.co.uk/index.htm...

Hope that's enough enlightenment for one evening!

:)

Hello Spiderman2,

I plead guilty as one of the religious people not having any ear at all for good music. Country music? Noooooooo..........No. Nope. Absolutely no ear for it at all.

And what was that bombastic Wagner opera where plump ladies in helmets with horns sticking out and wearing bras of brass warbling about in small voices compared to their girth?

Who says them athiestic commies can't and don't come out with grating pompous, patriotic songs? If one likes Wagner, surely one would like athiestic-commie music - BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BLARE! BLARE! BLARE! WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! In comes massed voices fighting to be heard over a hundred instruments and all that crescendo dipping into a wee whisper, then WHAM! BOOM! BANG! again?

Sotto voce? Andante, andante, andante, andante? My foot!

Give me Kabuki. Give me understated pompousity and grandiousity! It lets me fall asleep when I want to in a concert. I am a Philistine, and proud of it.

Cheers and a good weekend to you :).

"J"

E Favorite

I googled "aesthetic of knowledge" too. Yes, there it was, from this blog.

I feel that in my mind, it is clear, but I have a hard time making people understand. So, here is another attempt.

We do not know what knowlege is; we do not know how we know things; how do we know the things that we know? and how do we know the things that we know are true and not untrue?

There is no scientific method for answering these questions, but only by our sense of the "aesthetic of knowledge" which is a partly intuitive sense about how to judge what is true and what is not true.

Spiderman is a good example of someone whose aesthetic of knowledge is apparently blank. People who have understandings and beliefs differetn from his own, he calls stupid. He proves most of his beliefs, by saying that they must be true, how could they not be true, as though he cannot imagine anyone who would not believe his beliefs' except stupid people.

He is a good example of a person who has acquired knowledge about the world that is almost all invalid and dysfunctional. But could you ever get him to believe it? No.

Only he, and he, alone, can come to the understanding, through an improved and more refined aesthetic of knowledge, how to discard his invalid beliefs, and replace them with a more realistic, more valid, more true "knowledge."

wiccan wrote " people who gratuitously insult our friends."

I don't think it is an insult to bat the fast ball a person throws at you and hit it back right to his face. It's his ball, not mine. If you want to catch the ball for him, I have no problem with that.

Hi Spiderman, et al.

May I ask your opinion on something? As you probably know, I don't wish to argue, just inquire. Why has the Lord hid his face from us?

Why is there genocide in the Sudan, just for an example? Whay has there been genocide after genocide after genocide in this century?

I would also like to know what others have to say about this matter, speaking from their own religious perspectives. Atheists and Agnostics, I am one of you. I suspect I know what you would say.

Farnaz

E Fav, you said,
"Arminius -- maybe for a small bribe you could convince someone to let you stand on the stage and just move your lips. That's my dream for some day appearing in an opera as peasant rabble."

Sounds pretty good to me! Allow me to relate this story. My daughter appeared in an opera, 'Turandot'. No, she did not sing, the libretto calls for three gymnasts, and she answered the call. I tell you, I was one proud father, and that is my favorite opera!

Arminius

Wiccan,

Did you really make that reply to Spidey? If so, please accept my apology. That completely unhinges me.

Arminius

Arminius -- maybe for a small bribe you could convince someone to let you stand on the stage and just move your lips. That's my dream for some day appearing in an opera as peasant rabble.

Spidey - it's a secular community choir. I joined after quitting my church choir last year. We sang Gershwin in the fall, the Messiah at Xmas, and just now, Bach.

I want to state it though that your interpretation is not correct. It assumes that the U.S. will do the first strike. IT WON'T, and the prophecy said so.

Wiccan,

I love you! Where is my claymore, and, damnit, where did I put that woad?!?

Arminius

Wow Wiccan, Im glad you proved me right. Arminius could be eating his words by now.

You're almost there but not quite. Im sure you would know the answer as the said event approaches.

Congratulations, you are the top student. Here, receive your summa cum laude title. Teach the other students like Arminius. He's hanging tough with the easiest subjects. He might not make it to school next year.

Are you a Jew? Farnaz is a Jew and I think she's intelligent too.

OK, Spidey,

First, get your typing right. Wiccan never would have spewed that crap, she is a very good and compassionate lady.

Next, your silly prophesy is born of your sad bigotry, and longing for attention. Here is an alternate.

Israel IS Palestine today, they control it. The broken rod is Iraq. The 'cockatrice' is indeed America, who sends its 'fiery flying serpent', the B2, to destroy Iran.

Totally senseless, totally evil. Same as you.

Or, alternately, Palestine represents the Old Ones. The Broken Rod is the world. The cockatrice represents the followers of the Old Ones, who call forth mighty Chulthu, who is the 'fiery flying serpent'. He will rise from the ocean to stomp the world into submission, and open the way for the return of the Old Ones....

Makes just as much sense as your nonsense.

May God help you. None of us can.

Spidy-

Fair warning, Arminius and I share Celtic blood, and do not take kindly to people who gratuitously insult our friends.

E-favorite wrote " We’re an amateur choir, but the soloists and orchestra were professional and I can’t tell you what a thrill it was just to stand on the stage with that ensemble."

Are you a church goer? What place is this?

Arminus wrote "I truly pity you, and will continue to pray for you."

Thanks but Im not quite sure if God answers prayers from unbelievers.

Also don't speak for Wiccan. I can sense she's more intelligent than you. I like her replies. They are much more intelligent than yours. Stick to poetry.

"Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent."

This is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled, one of the signs of the End Times.

Palestina equals the Palestine people.

He whose rod is broken is Israel.

The cockatrice is America.

The prophecy is thus:

Somehow, Israel is devastated by one or more of its enemies. The Palestine people rejoice, because their enemy is destroyed. Then America, in righteous rage, will start bombing everything in sight in the Middle East, delivering the fruit of the fiery flying serpent.

Rebbe?

Spidey,

Regarding Wiccan's request for learning - Good God, don't you understand sarcasm when you see it?

OK, I'll ask the questions.

First, list one of your misguided 'prophesies', including the chapter and verse.

Next, tell us exactly what it predicts.

Then, elaborate on the 'reasoning' that led you to this conclusion.

But, of course, you will not do this. You can't. You cower in your cage, afraid. You have no answers.

How...well, how stupid. You can open the door of your cage at any time, and emerge into the light of inquiry.

But you won't. You are eaten by your fear, and that breeds your hatred.

I truly pity you, and will continue to pray for you.

Arminius

For Mr. Fate:

This "aesthetic of knowledge" that I have been thinking of, is sort of, the art of knowing, the art of collecting chunks of knowledge for the purpose of forming realistic ideas of the world. It is not easy. Some people are better at it than others; Spiderman, for example, is not too good at it. But others, like Chris Everett, are quite clever at it. And you know when you are speaking to a kindred spirit, who is also good at it.

It is more complicated than merely proving things through science. This is so because no one knows what knowlege is, nor how we know anything. And it is more complicated than merely shaking people loose from their childish supersitions. It involves the judgement and plausibility and trust in the consensus of one group and rejection of these things in another group.

Hi, E Fav, you said
"Arminius, you call it touching heaven. I call it a thrill. "Whatever,” as Mr Mark’s children would say. We can only be grateful that humans have created such beautiful music for us to respond to and enjoy, each in our own way."

Agreed!

To sing Bach's beloved Mass in B Minor must be an honor beyond all understanding. I wish I could sing!

Arminius

Arminius and Mr Mark - Just last Sunday, I sang Bach’s Mass in B minor in concert. Also did a dress rehearsal with the orchestra the day before. What a thrill. We’re an amateur choir, but the soloists and orchestra were professional and I can’t tell you what a thrill it was just to stand on the stage with that ensemble.

Arminius, you call it touching heaven. I call it a thrill. "Whatever,” as Mr Mark’s children would say. We can only be grateful that humans have created such beautiful music for us to respond to and enjoy, each in our own way.

Wiccan, glad you appreciate my presence. First question please.

Ah, Spiderman2 has returned!

Rebbe, will you teach, so that I may learn?

Arminius wrote "Why Spidey insists on having foes instead of friends is beyond me. That's not what Jesus taught."

Why Arminius thinks of me that way is beyond me also. Keeping the light bright so everyone can see don't seem evil to me but many people see it offensive and it's the reason why they crucified the "great Source of Light."

medievalist wrote " Biblical fundamentalists really need to read more and spout their uninformed nonsense far less often."

Uninformed nonsense like soil turning to human brain thru time. Put more bacteria to Darwin's brain and let's wait if he resurrects after a billion years. Also, for additional magic, say this chant, "Evolve..Be Alive. Evolve Darwin, Evolve... Be Alive "

Arminius wrote " I still remember a fair bit of Latin; it's my Greek that is gone.
O Fortuna
Velut luna
Statu variablis

Sounds like JJ to me. Wapo made a good job in screening him out. I wonder how? Excellent job Wapo.

Mr. Mark wrote "Melt with fear, you Philistines!" (This was how other "bibles" interpret it)

Same answer I gave to Fate. Philisthia is not Palestina and "melt with fear" is not DISSOLVE.

ghostbuster wrote:
"It's not us and them, it's WE and WE",
as long as they agree with me.

Good answer. Arminius, come and join us. Agree with me so we be a WE.

Daniel wrote " I do not really think that superstitious beliefs cause people to develop an apathy towards knowlege"

Superstitious belief like evolution and that soil turn to human brain just like magic. No scientific repeatable principle given but just thru billions of years, they made "themselves" that way. No Creator whatsoever. THE SOIL DID IT TO ITSELF. Great magic.

Cromett wrote "If you have prophecies, write them out in plain text with explanations and supporting quotes. That's what real scholars do. "

I did it once and what I got was more derision.

"Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." (Proverbs 26:5)

Mr. Mark mentioned about religious people not having ears for good music.

Mr. Mark, where have you been? Countless musicians got their early training in music from their churches. Have you heard any good music from atheist countries?

Hi, Wiccan,

Yes, that music is true. Those Scots-Irish are Ulstermen, from North Ireland. My father was born there. It is a grand ancestry. But... I love Eire. Dunno...

Also, I have a great love of true Bluegrass. NOT the largely perverted stuff of Country sung in Nashville. Although I love anything that Johnny Cash sung. He did not sing just to Nashville, he sang to the whole world. And the world listened.

Arminius

Daniel ITLD --

I just googled "aesthetic of knowledge" and found two pages of entries - one entry was yours!

check it out.

Hello, Jihadist,

Perhaps you are right - CCNL, the 'Pussycat' (I am tempted to start addressing him as that), is trying to bait you. He knows good poetry, I'll grant him that. But his command on reason is slippery at best. Anyway, if he goes over the line by slandering someone I respect, either you or others, I will do my Celtic best to beat him to a bloody stump. Pity I can't do it as gently and thoroughly as you can.

Arminius

Honky Gospel? Yes indeed. Now if you want real white folk gospel you've got to go to those old Scoth-Irish up in the mountains, like the Carter family and Mac Wiseman.

Oh, Damnit, Farnaz!

Your reply to Anonymous re alien abduction caused me to laugh myself into a serious coughing fit!!! You trying to kill me? LOL!!!!

Thanks,

Arminius

DITLD wrote: "But science is not so simple as that; we cannot all be scientists, demonstrating all of the truths of science to ourselves; so we invest a degree of trust in science as a philosophy, and accept the consensus of scientists on many subjects, as the definition of scientific truth."

True, we cannot all be scientists. Even scientists cannot test everything. That is why science does not use faith or believe, it uses validation, multiple validations by multiple people before something is accepted as true. For example, there is a debate raging in anthropology right now about a small skull found on an island in Indonesia. Its human, but very small. Did it come from a race of miniature people, who would have been about 3 feet tall? Or is it from a normal human who had a disease that causes a small body/skull? This debate continues and anthropologists are looking for more skulls to add to the evidence, but none have been found. So this question is not resolved. It is not considered valid even though some anthropologists are satisfied. Science says the evidence must be convincing. So far its on the edge. The debate and the research continues to literally dig for the truth. To accept the final verdict as to whether there was a race of miniature people on this island we will have to trust that hundreds of scientists who specialize in this research would not lie. People like spiderman2 think all biologists lie because they consider evolution to be true. However they consider astronomers to be truthful because they have discovered and verified the big bang, which the religious grab onto as evidence of divine creation. So all biologists lie and all astronomers tell the truth in their logic of making scientific facts match their beliefs. That is a clue that something is wrong with how they determine truth.

DITLD wrote: "Therefore my idea of the aesthetic of knowlege is related to the acceptance of science, not as objective truth of real things, but rather as the consensus of scientists regarding matters of science."

Exactly. Our trust in others is how we accept something to be true. Scientists are in the business of discovering truth. There is nothing worse than a scientist publishing a paper only to have its results proved wrong by other scientists. Its akin to a bridge builder having his bridge collapse as the first car drives over it. So just as we know the bridge designer made a mistake by the collapse, we know when a scientist makes a mistake as his peers jump all over him for making a blunder. Such is the competitiveness in science. That keeps scientists honest, and thus science honest. So your notion of aesthetic knowledge is not just trusting the consensus, its trusting that man cannot be competitive *and* conspire to lie at the same time.

Hello Arminius,

Okay. Who am I to stop anyone from taking on others for crossing the line on On Faith threads?.

It surprise me a bit to see how everyone from A Hermit to Norrie Hoyt to Henry James to you and Soja lashed at by CCNL in questioning some of his posts addressed to, or regarding me.

I have no doubt CCNL have issues on Islam and Muslims, and saw how he/they do drive and egg on, like a sheperd, some rather sharky and snarky posters with quite colourful comments on Islam and Muslims in the threads of Muslim On Faith panelists such as Eboo Patel.

Certainly, CCNL calling me a terrorist, my crucifying Shiites are personal attacks that are contrary to the conditions and code set by On Faith blog managers for a start. I have never reported or ask to delete any "offensive" comments by anyone. I am not about to start now.

I regard those as part of CCNL's unhinged posts, as some others are prone too. There is a difference between a real unhinged post and posts deliberately put out as "unhinged" to cause unhinging and unhinged reactions from others. In short, baiting.

I really don't know which of the CCNL collective said I am a terrorist or to crucify Shiites. I do sometimes think there is more than one CCNL as the tone and thrust of CCNL's posts varies, even his English, and I'm not a native speaker.

I start thinking that when I was travelling some months back in and through different time zones, casually reading On Faith when I have nothing better to do. CCNL, I saw, actually posts at times when Americans from the East Coast to the West Coast were sleeping in their different time zones.

Unless, CCNL as a retired person (as "he" said), never sleeps and spends all his time in On Faith, and have multiple personalities or sides to his personalities - a mischievous fellow who wants to see how far he can get away with some of his posts too.

If you want to go to war with CCNL or anyone who cross the line or make offensive comments, do so. I was and just trying to avoid anyone else from stepping in the wee "battles" between CCNL and me in On Faith.

I call CCNL pussycat as what he/they posts is limited to On Faith threads though it is a reflection of what others do say in the real world.

I only make an issue if said by heads of states, heads of governments, the UN Secretary General and religious leaders of religious organisations and such high profile leaders etc who should lead, reconcile, find common ground and cause, unite disparate views and groups. Not to be divisive and cause conflicts.

Recognised and acknowledged heads of global religious organisations falls in this category. Pat Robertson, Mr. Parsley not really. Nor Mr. Wright. I don't see them as speaking for all Christians but a specific segment of Christians at best. Mr. Wright may be divisive with his controversial remarks, but he is only the head of one church, not all of it.

Religious and non-religious non-governmental leaders and groups in secular states have no power to legislate their interests, beliefs and views unless the legislators and lawmakers are "persuaded" by them let them. That is why there are thousands of lobbyists in the DC area.

Mr. Wright has no real power, unlike say, mayors, congressman, senators, presidents and judges. But he does have ethical, moral and values related "power" as a church leader to make everyone think about race and religion and where we stand on them by his remarks. Again.

Mr. Wright has quite an impact. He made us define or redefine ourself and what we stand for in agreeing or disagreeing with him.

"We and we" says you?

Yes. We and we are us and us for all of us:)

Best regards and a good weekend to you.

"J"

Anonymous:

You wrote:

"Would any of you know if there's an alien abduction rider available for car insurance?"

Here is a site you might want to visit:

Claim alien abduction insurance/answerbag.com

It provides you with information on what to carry around with you to be prepared for the abduction (e.g., your insurance, space pen, etc.), how to ready yourself for the return trip, and the documentation you'll need to file your claim (E.g., the signature of an authorized on board alien before departing the spacecraft on your return trip.)

There is also a link to an insurance agency, although they suggest that you approach your insurance agent. The cost is steep and the best you can collect is surprisingly little.

Personally, I don't have such insurance, haven't been abducted by aliens, although I do deal with extra-terrestrials at work on a daily basis.

I find that most are congenial enough, and I wouldn't mind taking a trip with them.

However, given your friend's mother's experience, I can understand his concern.

Good Luck!

Wiccan,

OK, then, music badly inspired. Honky Gospel? I can pretty much agree with that. Day old oatmeal set to music.

Arminius

Arminius-

' I just don't know what you meant by "music that is entirely based on religious inspiration, ie: music devoid of skill, craft and art, infused with the saccharine beliefs and emotions of the amateur." '

I think Mr. Mark means songs like that dreadful "Open the Eyes of my Heart, Lord". Retch! Give me "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" any day over that drivel.

Arminus, think Kaballah Centre. Sell yarn for $30 a piece, bottled water for $5.00 each, teach that 10% of income is necessary to "open a channel to the light", and collect the names of the sick so you can badger them into giving you an amount of money that causes "equal suffering" as their illness, "in order to receive".

Sufi Center? Advita Center? Buddha Center?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Jihadist, Well Met,

As I know you are perfectly able to defend yourself, and to well and truly go on the counteroffensive, I will respect your wish not to interfere with your internecine conflicts here.

With one exception. If anyone crosses the line, whether against you or anyone else, I will go to war. CCNL did that with his post to you about crucifixions. I still condemn him for that, and always will.

Arminius

Arminius and Gerry make some interesting points concerning spirituality vs. religion. If we consider science and in particular physics as representing the cutting edge of human knowledge, we would find that any number of well-known physicists that contributed heavily to the emergence of quantum mechanics had a 'spiritual' side - although they may not have been regular church goers. In reading Ken Wilber's 'Quantum Questions' one finds that a whole host of these famous quantum thinkers engaged in mystical musings.

For example, physicist Wolfgang Pauli, reputed to be a more powerful thinker than Einstein himself, set forth his Platonic/Pythagorean world view in 'The influence of Archetypal Ideas on Kepler's
Construction of Scientific Theories' in collaboration with Carl Jung.

His lifelong friend Werner Heisenberg wrote an impressive commentary on this philosophical treatise. One might say with accuracy that each and every physicist covered in this book was by definition a 'spiritual agnostic' but could hardly be classified as materialist atheists - while there are certainly plenty of those as well, within the ranks of top-flight contemporary physicists.

Other quantum physicists are actively engaged in their own investigations in the broad field of consciousness research. For example, Amit Goswami has published 'The Self-Aware Universe', Fred Alan Wolf has 'The Spiritual Universe', 'Parallel Universes', and a number of other 'esoteric' other works based on quantum theory, and of course we have the early work of Fritjof Capra, 'The Tao of Physics'.

Stan Grof, psychiatrist and co-founder of the Transpersonal Psychology movement has written extensively about his research findings utilitizing chemically based psychedelics (LSD and other synthetic derivitives) with the terminally ill - and the transformative effects that these deep experiences brought about.

Interestingly, we see that Albert Hoffman, the father of LSD, died a couple of days ago in Basil, Switzerland at the age of 93 - he remained a firm believer in the clinical use of LSD as a transformative psychic agent throughout his life.

This demonstrates quite conclusivley that knowledge will always remain an open-ended pursuit. Our subjective and personally transformative spiritual experiences can't easily be proven or replicated on the one hand, but still have plenty of historical support over the centuries without having to falling back on the lunatic fringe for validation.

In point of fact, some mystics have maintained there is no objective reality at all.....there is nothing separable from Mind to these awakened individuals. And in the end, who can argue with the primacy of consciousness when it comes to determining anything at all?

We might even say that consciousness is the only objective reality, since it's the only part of us that is capable of knowing. What is the nature of consciousness?? That's really the ultimate question......

Mr Mark,

Just put on Beethoven's 3rd. Looking for the piano concertos, they gotta be here somewhere!

Arminius

Mr Mark,

You have opened the waterfall to a lot of words here!

You devoted the day to my Main Man Ludvig? YES! The piano concertos, YES! And here, bear with me, I'm gonna get a bit religious. Even in my years as an unbeliever, I firmly held that Beethoven, when he composed his incredible 9th, reached up and touched heaven. And a further note on religious music: Bach? Huh? How about old Johann, huh? Lots of good religious works. His mass? OMG! I know damn well you do not disparage Bach, I just don't know what you meant by "music that is entirely based on religious inspiration, ie: music devoid of skill, craft and art, infused with the saccharine beliefs and emotions of the amateur."

Enlighten me!

Arminius

Hello Farnaz :)

Don't worry too much about CCNL and me. I don't see how he/they can hurt me and me him/them. I said him/they to refer to CCNL as he/they is fond of referring himself/themself as "we". We've been having baiting banters now and then for months now.

You do know we are all idealists here - everyone from Canyon Shearer to Duckphup who are disquieted by the state of man and the world, percieve its causes and proffered solutions - from seperation of church and state to a universal religion for all to no religion for anyone and everything in between. We only agree there are problems, but not on causes and solutions.

Ironic that we should fight so much as we all care for what is wrong with us and the world if we peel away the theological, ideological, religious as well as belief and non-belief differences. The passions of the "true believers" of what we believe in is played out everyday in On Faith threads.

You do know On Faith is like a minefield. You never know whom you offended with your posts until you read the reactions to them even if your posts are addressed to others, and others to you.

God forbid anyone should intervene in peace or to interject on points in CCNL's and my exchanges. All become collateral damage.

I'm only asking others not to intervene in posts addressed to me. I will respond or otherwise to those posts if I see them.

Regards
"J'

--------------------------------------------------

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Pussycat! There you go. Sharing with us some great poetry from a bona-fide poet, Kola Boof instead of your own interesting effort. And I thought mine were terrible.

Don't be so nasty to my favourite civil, goodhearted, sober and sane Christians here - Mary Cunningham, Ryan Haber, Arminius, Daniel in the Lion's Den, Soja et al.

Did I say no more spit for spat, tit for tat, tease for thump because I'm preparing for a conference? For you, I'm making an exception. Here's some short, simple and stupidest ones to get you off your "poetic" mood and mode:

I have a pen
my pen is purple
i have a yen
and it is not the dollar

Islam is perfect
Muslims are set
don't get upset
it's just a "fact".

you and i
an eye for an eye
others ask why
never let them pry

It takes only two to create havoc and war, no?

Cheers pussycat :)

"J"

Dear Friend Arminius -

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate your thoughts and always read your posts, even I don't comment on each and every one of them.

Ah, music - who could live without it? Music may be the one thing that would lead one to believe that there IS a god...until one realizes that ALL music is conceived by and written by human beings...and that - invariably - the WORST music written by people is the music that is entirely based on religious inspiration, ie: music devoid of skill, craft and art, infused with the saccharine beliefs and emotions of the amateur.

My "background" listening at work today consisted of all of the Beethoven concertos - 5 piano concerti, violin concerto, "Triple" Concerto...even the piano arrangement of the violin concerto. There's a REAL disconnect that goes on when you're hearing Beethoven in your ears while your eyes are reading the On Faith posts of What? and spidey!

Mr Mark,

Your analysis of What? is accurate, he cannot be reached or taught. The touchstone here is what parts of the bible are quoted: if it is the nasty parts of the OT and Revelation, then you know you have a Spidey/What? on your hands, mind like a steel trap, rusted shut. However, if they quote the Gospels and the Epistles, you may have a Thomas Baum. Those types can be conversed with, even though you might (in your case, would) disagree. Mind you, I don't agree with all Thomas Baum says, but he is compassionate and totally polite to all.

I read What? as really bad. Much worse than Spidey. I hope I am wrong.

God knows, friend, that we vehemently disagree on much, but I have learned from you. Your knowledge of music absolutely humbles me.

Arminius

What?,

Judgment will happen when you meet God face to face. What will you say to him? That you spent your life judging your fellow man, those neighbors that Jesus told you to love, telling them that they are doomed to hell? Isn't that God's job? No? Your job? Oh, silly me, I didn't know you were God. Pardon me while I convert to Paganism.

Arminius

Dear What? -

I'm quite certain that a discussion (semantic or otherwise)with you over the word "law" would be as frustrating and pointless as is the usual discussion with those of the fundie Xian persuasion over the meaning of the word "theory" when used in a scientific context.

Been there, done that. Guys like you are unreachable and unteachable.

Re: "class is almost over."

It really saddens me to see people like you looking forward with such glee to oblivion. Tell you what, What? - let's meet back here in say, oh, 25 years, and we can discuss how those End Times are going for you. With any luck, science will by then have found a way to prolong our lives indefinitely, and we can go on discussing the "imminent" End Times for the next 2,000 years...or until you're the last believer left on Earth...whichever comes first.

Thank you Susan for a very insightful article.

I think all of this controversy over Jeremiah Wright's comments really highlights why we want to separate religion from government. Our founding fathers were brilliant in many regards and creating a secular constitution was a prime example of this brilliance because you never know when the next president may not share your particular flavor of religion. With a secular government, it doesn't matter as much (although it is still scary) if an idiot with reverent in front of their name has the president's ear or for that matter the ear of a presidential hopeful.

Arminius writes:

"What? is really a piece of work, isn't he? Maybe worse than Spidey."

Yes, both harmless if annoying.

But then, it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. As Ted Knight says as the character Judge Smails in the film, "Caddyshack," "the world needs ditch diggers, too!"

Mr. Mark..

Ah!, What you mention is part of the crux of the whole matter.

Law.

Law confused with ordinance.

Law for good that is sadly regarded as harsh, cruel and old.

Rev 12:9

We are just not getting it yet.

But class is almost over. Testing (finals?) will begin soon. Really, this is a good thing. For the outcome will be beyond our wildest dreams...and it wont be playing harps in heaven either...additionally, it wont be those considered 'lost' being turned on a spit over a fire forever - several miles below our feet. (Judgement will be a bit different than the scenarios painted thru the years) Like I said..its all there in the book.

Cant keep our head in the sand forever, can we.

Regards

RE: Alien abduction automobile insurance riders

Would any of you know if there's an alien abduction rider available for car insurance?

I ask because last year a friend's aging mother had an accident caused by her trying to avoid hitting aliens who appeared suddenly as she was driving on the highway.

She's still driving and there have been no subsequent incidents, but her account of last year's accident caused problems with the insurance company, leaving my friend with the earnest desire to take whatever precautions he can.

Mr Mark,

My proposal was, of course, tongue-in-cheek. Although, since I am unemployed at the moment, it is tempting. Yet, even though it could be legal, it is neither moral nor ethical. And there are still plenty of snake-oil salesmen out there, usually known as video preachers. They prey on the poor. If I did such a scam, I would only prey on the fundie well-to-do. But I won't do it, I would like to sleep at night.

What? is really a piece of work, isn't he? Maybe worse than Spidey.

Arminius

Dear Arminius -

Hello, friend.

I know that snake oil salesmen are still making money off the simple-minded and malcontented, but I didn't want to get into it here. Kevin Trudeau is rather a staple on American TV these days.

Besides, I'm sure I could have that discussion with What? at any number of homeopathy sites, where the "law of infinitesimals" holds court, pace any contrary scientific testing that puts the lie to said "law."

Who's on first, What? You don't read like Thomas Baum to me. Are you Spiderman?

If you can't post under your name, then you can use your in your comment.

"You should be happy that snake oil salesmen don't go from town to town these days. Their elixirs were also able to work miracles that only the simple minded believer could see."

Then how happy any believer (I assume by his/her posts that Arminius is a believer/Christian) should be that the creator of the universe is much more intelligent and has more purpose than an elixer salesman...dontcha think?

For the most part...the masses saw thru the snake oil salesman..thats why he is branded as he is today. God, though, is the same yesterday, today and forever. Heb. 13.

Mr Mark,

Sorry, I must respectfully disagree.

The ignorant bliss is indeed mans realm...but the realm that is apart from God.

Go past the bylines in the news sometimes and really let it sink in.

Every answer to the ills we have today has an answer in scripture. Why, much of the bible is a chronology of how we chose to do it 'our way'. And embedded within and throughout..are the answers.

Our way has brought us to, today and beyond, ills that cannot be solved by mankind...apart from God. Sad how people discount instruction for man not to lie with man millenia ago..and how that same instruction warned us that those who do will receive a recompence that is meet. Mr. Mark..the family of man just doesnt get it yet.

You and I and the billions around us are in a period of learning tried and true lessons, my friend. Stay tuned and buckle down. The roads gonna get bumpier.

..But take heart...it gets better. Read the book.

Mr Mark,

Well, you have put me in full wicked mode. Your reply to What?'s pathetic and Spidey-like answer to your questions:

"You should be happy that snake oil salesmen don't go from town to town these days. Their elixirs were also able to work miracles that only the simple minded believer could see."

Do you realize there is still great money to be made here? There really is some bright entrepreneur in England making lots of profit selling Alien Abduction Insurance, with a rider available concerning sexual abuse by an alien. Surely we can think of something? Selling guaranteed Rapture certificates comes to mind, but I think the Vatican did something like that once, and it helped cause the Reformation. Must be something.... I need ideas!

Arminius

Dear What? -

Per your last post - to quote my kids - whatever.

You should be happy that snake oil salesmen don't go from town to town these days. Their elixirs were also able to work miracles that only the simple minded believer could see.

Come to think of it, god is a bit of a snake oil salesman. He appeals to people's desire for a quick and easy cure in a bottle. No need for proof, just take god's word for it! But god's even worse, for he's like a snake oil salesman who takes credit where none is due - like the salesman who sells a tonic to a rube in Texas.

"It's guaranteed to ward off Bengal tigers!" says the salesman. "Take a gulp. Now, do you see any Bengal tigers around? No, you don't. What more proof do you need of its magical powers?"

"Fine," says the rube, "but do you have any elixirs that will ward off the boll weevils? That's what's really bothering me."

"Sure I do," says the salesman, "but I carry it only in my stores in India..."

Sorry, What?, but you're just like every self-deluded religionist who can't see his nose in front of his face, and who - when shown the same - denies it's there.

Be content in your willfully ignorant bliss.

Here is a scenario to ponder: If Obama is elected president, and after denouncing Farrakkhan as he did, is it conceivable that he (Obama) might reap great heartache and possible endangerment to his life (or others) for doing so?

Is it so impossible for that to come about?

Let alone a misguided 'pastor' who states 'he's coming after Barak if he is elected...'

Now, think about it, fellow Americans, and really search your souls whether you want to be in the middle of that or not.

Anonymous, the most recent one -

Are you Thomas Baum? I think you can log in as yourself.

Mr Mark:
Dear What?

>>You just don't know your Bible.
Uh, no, rather..you are just too simple minded, my friend

Flat Earth: You might look in Daniel 4 where Danny has dream of a tree that grew so tall that the whole world could see it at the same time. How is that possible if the world is a sphere?

>>Uh, you obviously dont understand the prophetic intent of these verses. Thats the beauty of scripture...it confounds those who disregard it.

How about the verse in Matthew 4 where "the devil taketh him (Jesus) up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them." If your answer is, "that's just a metaphor for seeing everything. It has nothing to do with everything being on a flat earth.", then why did the devil have to elevate Jesus by taking him up into a mountain (and, an "exceedingly high mountain" at that) to gain a perspective of "all the kingdoms of the world?" Seems to me that if there's no element of elevating Jesus to improve his view that the devil could have just as easily taken Jesus into a subterranean cave to show him all thekingdoms of the earth.

>>..confounded again, eh?

Here's the deal, What? Back then, EVERYBODY used to think the world was flat, at least until the Greeks figured it out in 300BC. It only stands to reason that books THOUGHT UP BY AND WRITTEN BY MEN would postulate a flat Earth. That alone is proof that no god was around to inspire or guide their "holy" writings, because any omniscient god would KNOW that the flat earth idiocy would eventually be known to men, and within a few thousand years of the Bible being written. If god really existed, he might have given the Bible authors a few tidbits of supernaturally derived intelligence and let them in on the secret that the world he created was a sphere, in contradiction to what mere mortals believed.

>>Biblical prophecy and scripture in general transcends the physical.

>>and by the way...there was 'no god around' because of those who thought they were smarter than God could figure everything out...(such as you are attempting to do)..its all there. It is you who seems to not know your bible, my friend.

>>Guess what....keep trying.

It's simple when you think about it.

Spiritual vs Religion. Talk about a can of worms. Remember that part of St Murphey's Laws: the only way to repack a can of worms, once opened, is to get a bigger can.

Religion: an organized system of belief. Either loosely organized (Pagans and Buddhists, among others), somewhat organized (most Christians and Moslems), or very tightly organized (Catholics and Scientologists, if you can consider the latter a religion, I don't). Often they have a text they hold to as their base (Christians and Moslems), or not (Pagans), or many (Hindus).

Spirituality: when an individual realizes, somehow, that there is something much greater than him/her, and that something has touched his/her life and changed it. This is difficult. It is not religion, there is no code, no dogma, there is simply a knowing.... one cannot point to any text, one cannot offer a proof because one knows that it cannot be proven, only lived. This describes me.

Spirituality can lead to religion, as it did me. But because of the nature of spirituality, the approach to religion is delicate and slow, and full of skepticism and doubt. Again, this describes me.

Spiritualism, at its best, is being kicked out of the comfortable region of senses and into a strange place where you must keep searching just to keep your bearings. At its worst, it leads to false paths like seances - the 19th century experience.

Religion, at its best, produces a John Paul II. Or, here, a Thomas Baum. At its worst, we get those who reject all others, live in a box, and define themselves and their twisted views in terms of just who is in lockstep with their backwards goose-stepping march. (Spidey, anyone?)

Look, folks, it ain't simple. Forget the black and white that the fundies and the more militant atheists hold to. The universe is multi-colored. And we can't even begin to see all those colors.

A final note: Pagans are much more spiritual than religious. This probably explains the bond I feel with them.

Arminius

MR MARK

You made a comment about my name, I replied twice, blocked both times. I wonder if it is because of some people's names that some posts get blocked. I have yet to have a post received for review to be later posted by the reviewer, I wonder why? Is it because it is actually being blocked rather than reviewed?

Take care, be ready.

Gerry-

I have oft times heard people make the distinction between "spiritual" and "religious". And there are plenty of "spiritual atheists" on this forum.

Spiritual: of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life.

Religious: of, pertaining to, or concerned with religion: a religious holiday.

I think when people make make a distinction, this is what they mean.

Dear Fate

Thank you for your thoughtful reply and comments. But, I can tell that I did not explain my concept of "aesthetic of knowledge" clearly enough because I do not think you have understood what I meant. Oh dear! I am afraid I have opened up a can of worms that may require a whole book.

I do not consider religious or philosphical thinking to be "knowledge;" I consider all of that sort of thing to be "speculative." The Golden Rule, for example, which you cited, isn't "knowledge;" it is a maxim, or a priciple to live by.

When you get down to it, it is not easy to say just what "knowledge" is; it is somehow related to the mental mechanisms of "knowing" and also related physical existence which enables the phenomenon of knowing, and therefore, of knowledge.

My curiosity and speculation on this arises from such people as Spiderman, who "knows" evolution is not true, even though it is true. Why is there such a conflict in the world, about what is plainly true and not true?

There are 2 truths; the truth of the senses, and the truth of consensus. The truth of the senses is the truth that you see yourself. The truth of consensus is what other people tell you, whom you invest some trust in.

Fate said:

"There is the provable truth, for example, math/science, and the subjective truth, for example, love, caring, etc. The former is determined through repeated testing and validation, in a word, science."

But science is not so simple as that; we cannot all be scientists, demonstrating all of the truths of science to ourselves; so we invest a degree of trust in science as a philosophy, and accept the consensus of scientists on many subjects, as the definition of scientific truth.

Therefore my idea of the aesthetic of knowlege is related to the acceptance of science, not as objective truth of real things, but rather as the consensus of scientists regarding matters of science.

Now is it easier to see why there is a conflict on what is valid knowledge? Because many people do not accept the consensus of scientists as definining the material world, and the nature of existence. Many people, instead, look to other sources, old written texts, as well as political institions of religion and religious fervor.

Earlier, I said, there is the truth of our senses and the truth of consensus. Our senses tell us the world is flat. When we walk around, and explore things, and go places, it sure seems more flat, than it does round. Yet, by the truth of scientific consensus, if we have trust in the validity of such a consensus, then we know the world is round.

This is what I meant earlier, when I said that acquiring a sense of valid knowledge and truth, is, in fact, a difficult accomplishment, related, to an appreciation of any fine art, or even to poetry, which I called the "aesthetic of knowledge."

Btw: I admire and have met Julian Bream. I play some of his recordings on the cello (Bach Suite c-minor).

Humans want orientation. Orientation, who they are, where they are, why they are. I think the first two we share with all (other) animals, and certainty is the goal. Certainty can be found through order, but order is relative and never complete for a free and open mind.

Complete certainty cannot be attained by scientific and sheer philosophical thinking. "Honest" thinking always stays open, with an uncertain, open result ("panta rhei"). The majority of people cannot stand such an "honest, flowing uncertainty" and therefore falls for the fraudulent superstitious religious certainty of "belief".

In German, the word "geistig" embraces everything a person is able to think, hope, feel, strive for. As soon as you translate it into American english ("spiritual"), the meaning snaps into "religious". I regard myself as a spiritual atheist, which, for the simple religionists is an oxymoron. For me, it is a matter of life and death and describes something similar to CTCNL's "aestetic of knowledge": The zest for knowledge, the joy of learning, the wonders of perception, and the complete distrust for any proxy explanation, especially when tied to an obvious power agenda.

The fact that there is a caricature like Hagee around, poisoning the intellectually challenged part of the American electorate, does not bode well for the next steps of evolution. But then, evolution is beyond "good" or bad". It just is, and it is beyond fascinating. By all means more fascinating than the simple, helpless myths mankind inherited from a blind age as an ersatz food for honest and awe-inspired thinking and being in the world.

An aside: It is funny that a simple mind like spiderman2 serves as a "focal point" for so much wonderful open thinking in this thread. It reminds me of the necessity of an ever so tiny grain of dust to morph humidity into a drop of water.

Fate,

I, too, have challenged Spidey to explain passages in the bible, and asked him to expound on his 'prophesies'. No result. I can only conclude that, as Wiccan said, he is that small child yelling 'I know something and I'm not gonna tell you!' That seems to be his sad way of feeling important. I am quite convinced that he has no answers to any of it. His is truly a sterile mind.

Fate, be not so hard on religion. Not all of it is dictatorial - that's just the part that gets the press. Coming from a spiritual experience, I am now religious. But it is NOT a fixed box of ready answers, no, not at all. It is a constant searching, an eternal journey. And it is a struggle. Indeed, it is a jihad, in the original meaning of the word, 'internal struggle'. And my church encourages questions, and pretty much demands that you do NOT check your brain at the door.

Arminius

"Don't be too offended. It seems spidy thinks the scripture which, predicts an event that is recorded later in the bible, should be applied to the current arab/israeli conflict. What I find more telling is that I gave him some scripture to explain and he has ignored it. Maybe he can't.

He seems confortable in his superiority of biblical knowlege though and telling him he is wrong is impossible. He seems to have a real superiority complex, which religion can magnify. But don't be too hard on him for not wanting to debate. Debate is not the foundation of religion, it is the foundation of truth. Religion dictates."

FATE, you are so right. It's the hubristic arrogance that gets to me. I should know better than engaging him, of all people, in any sort of debate. You can't debate anyone who knows he is absolutely right and who "knows" all other opinions are inferior and not worth listening too. It is, indeed, the biggest flaw and biggest danger posed by the Fundamentalist mindset. It's this sort of narrow thought that leads to oppression and mass murder in the name of God, not that Spidey either advocates or approves of that. But in the end, it is this dangerous sense of certainty that has been used to justify the worst crimes, whether by the Inquisition, or the equally flawed Stalinists and Nazis.

I apologize to all for being a bit cranky today, I'm fighting off a sinus infection.

I need to get some julius Breem. I already have some john Renbourne.

s c cromett wrote: "Don't play with words? All you are doing is playing with words. If God is all powerful, all knowing, etc. God can speak in plain words."

Don't be too offended. It seems spidy thinks the scripture which, predicts an event that is recorded later in the bible, should be applied to the current arab/israeli conflict. What I find more telling is that I gave him some scripture to explain and he has ignored it. Maybe he can't.

He seems confortable in his superiority of biblical knowlege though and telling him he is wrong is impossible. He seems to have a real superiority complex, which religion can magnify. But don't be too hard on him for not wanting to debate. Debate is not the foundation of religion, it is the foundation of truth. Religion dictates.

"cromett, don't play with words. JUST SOLVE THE VERSE IF YOU CAN. Fate got zero. Let's see if you can get a higher score."

Don't play with words? All you are doing is playing with words. If God is all powerful, all knowing, etc. God can speak in plain words.

You can make the Bible say anything, which is why the whole idea of Biblical prophecy is nonsense.

Anything scored by you would be irrelevant, so I I don't waste my time.

If you have prophecies, write them out in plain text with explanations and supporting quotes. That's what real scholars do. And use your real name, if you really want to live up to your self professed Christian nobility. Hiding behind a comic book character doesn't say much for your own character or faith.

DITLD wrote: "Another thing that I have discovered about the deeper reality of the world and of existence is that there is complexity to knowledge and truth which goes beyond the mere sensual reactions of our physical senses, and that a sense of valid knowledge and truth, is, in fact, a difficult accomplishment, related, to an appreciation of any fine art, or even to poetry. I call this the "aesthetic of knowledge."

Hmmm, there are two types of truth. There is the provable truth, for example, math/science, and the subjective truth, for example, love, caring, etc. The former is determined through repeated testing and validation, in a word, science. The other has no method of scientific proof. We must determine it ourselves, through careful analysis of our thoughts, our morality, our emotions and to some extent our selfishness to prosper and survive. The 'golden rule' is a great example. It has no scientific validity except maybe that it produces a stable society (a good thing from a survival point of view).

An 'aesthetic of knowledge' I would posit is just knowing which of the two categories the knowlege falls into. What makes the subjective truth difficult is that it might change with time and circumstance. Our minds want it to be fixed, like provable truths, but subjective truths are subjective, cannot be proved, and rely on not only our notion of right and wrong, but our circumstances. Religion and phylosophy are attempts to nail down subjective truth into truths as solid as provable truths. The problem as I see it is that while phylosophy tries to explain why a subjective truth is right, as the golden rule does, religion simply deems it the word of God, to be obeyed with reward, or disobeyed with punishment. For the thinking person, phylosophy is a good method for solidifying subjective truth. Religion is for the lazy thinker, the person who just wants to be told right from wrong like a child.

The problem with religion is that though the religious edict may completely agree with a phylosophical determination of subjective truth, the religious have no idea why it is right, just that it is, because He says so. And so, when conditions change, the reason for the truth is lost on the religious. The result is war when "thou shalt not kill", racism when you should "love thy neighbor as thyself", and going to church on Sunday when "thou shalt keep the Sabbath day holy" just to not be attending services on the same day as jews.

DLD wrote to Medievalist:

"I do not really think that superstitious beliefs cause people to develop an apathy towards knowlege; on the other hand, perhaps is the apathy towards knowledge which causes people to latch on to all of the many simple-minded and childish beliefs, which are easier to undersand, and do not require much thinking."

An unblessed rage for order?

Dear Medievalist:

That was a very nice thing that you wrote about relgious belief and fundamentalism.

I have thought alot about fundamentalism and what makes the fundamentalist tick. Part of it is fear of a confusing world, or if not fear, then, a difficulty in forming a sense of order from it all. To be realistic and honest, there is much about life that must be accepted without clear understanding and without clear guidance.

But people may freely deny this realism and honesty for the shelter of certainty, which is almost always misguided and misplaced.

Another thing that I have discovered about the deeper reality of the world and of existence is that there is complexity to knowledge and truth which goes beyond the mere sensual reactions of our physical senses, and that a sense of valid knowledge and truth, is, in fact, a difficult accomplishment, related, to an appreciation of any fine art, or even to poetry. I call this the "aesthetic of knowledge."

I made it up, and have never mentioned it to anyone, nor discussed this with anyone, nor posted it on any other blog. But the hand full of times that I posted it here, not a single person reacted, so I am not sure if this "esthetic of knowledge" means anything or not, or does it seem even remotely plausible to anyone.

But anyway, it is my observation that a "sense of knowledge" is somthing that is difficult to achieve, and therefore, you would not expect people to come by it easitly or automatically.

I do not really think that superstitious beliefs cause people to develop an apathy towards knowlege; on the other hand, perhaps is the apathy towards knowledge which causes people to latch on to all of the many simple-minded and childish beliefs, which are easier to undersand, and do not require much thinking.

I cannot see that the idea of "deflawing" religious beliefs will make people more "interested" in the aesthetic of knowledge.

Tom, Tom, the piper's son,
He learned to play when he was young.
But the only tune that he could play
Upset more people every day.

Until an hour on the day of Thor,
Still self-obsused on what his fight was FOR
He found a way from his hiding place
To give us some verses that had some grace.

Medievalist-

I have been listening to Julius Bream all morning. Blessed Be to you, and your children, and to the increase of your house!

To address Rev. Wright's issues properly, we must address the flaws, errors, muck and stench in his brand of Christianity and religion in general. Since poetry is in vogue on this thread, one might want to read some of the poetry of Kola Boof:

"BINT IL NIL"

"I want a new religion.
The one our mothers had in the river.

I am tired of Jesus and Mohammed.
I am tired of man's foot.
I am tired of the White man's mother.
I am weary...from doing nothing about it.

I want my own religion.
I want my real mother.

Africa, I want you.

Make me pregnant with God.
Our own perfect babies...Black as perfection.
Tall as the sky. Healthy as light sparkling on
clear water.

I want my own religion.
I want my own voice.
I want my own face.
I want my own hair.
I am Naima/the one who is victorious
the one

who is praying"

"I Still Hear the Lion"
by Kola Boof
(a poem for Theo Van Gogh...in loving memory)

Kunje me wat geven voor de pijn?

de sterke wind

heft de boom weggeblazen:

Silence is the sky...of the Brood.

Nothing drowns, because

this lake is the lake of memory

---and on the day that the Lion decides

to throw himself on the sword,

My blood is dead blood/my voice, like a killing sound,

all eternal...and this is the Sky of our sermons.

Surely as the wind blows---I become the Eyes

in his head.

I am his daughter who can see to the bottom

of the lake.

And yet....it has no floor.

The sweetly flowing Arabic of this Brood of scarlet robes.

Through each and every pregnancy.

Dear lake, my face on your surface...

This Sky has been coming forever.

Rippling...

The swan of his stroke.

His long white arms, reaching like thunder

swimming into the footpaths

the footpaths...of those who

walk on water.

I am underwater/Fully

And yet I still hear the lion

--I

the one who is listening.

Through gun-fire and moody wind

and Pain raining deeper than the bluest night in Amsterdam

---I hear the sound of that which cannot die.

The coming of man/the coming of my father.

For surely MAN always comes.

And will come again---through me."

Arminius,

I fear that I am nearing the end of something, hopefully, this ten-day course of antibiotics, I'm on, but this fog must go to something else.

But Greek AND Latin?

Many late nights before finally drifting off, I have a one-or-two minute vision of winning the Lottery. (I don't play.)

Upon hearing the news, I take a cab to the airport, and while awaiting my flight, I call those I can, purchase a laptop, and notify friends, relatives worldwide that I am en route, won't be back for a couple of years. (Since I am now very wealthy, they must let me know what they need.)

Study ancient Greek in Greece, Latin in Italy, where I also return to the Catedral de Santa Maria del Flori, Campanário de Giotto, etc.

I also drive all around the coast of Italy.

I do a lot more. Find an alternative for glasses, study holistic healing. Perfect my raquet ball game, learn to swim, at last. And study drawing (Not very good at it at all, not at all, but I like it.)

Meanwhile, my brilliant and socially committed staff of financial advisors has much increased my wealth, which I use to bring food, medicine, shelter, education to those in need everywhere.

Latin and Greek, Arminius....

Farnaz

And this:

Canongait kirkyaird in the failing year
Is auld and grey, the wee roseirs are bare,
Five gulls leem white agin the dirty air.
Why are they here? There's naething for them here
Why are we here oursels?

Rob't Garioch, "At the tomb of Robert Fergusson"

Stronger than tosh about tabbies, eh?

Non fui,fui,non sum,non curo.

(I was not, I was, I am not, I care not)
carved on an Etruscan tombstone.

Atheists think the movement is new but it is not. It is very old.

Good grief, Arminius,

I found my glasses and your lines. The opening lines from the Iliad. (Relation to Aneid? Only Farnaz-neruonic, I'm sure--associative mania)

The fog has crept in on gigantic cat feet. What can I say?

More light, more light! (And, please, more sleep for me.)

Sorry!

And, yes. We is "worth striving for." We can see that all is not well, but much of the striving has not been in vain, has it?

Farnaz

Farnaz,

Here's what I posted yesterday, the proem of the Iliad:

Sing, Goddess, the wrath of Peleus' son Achilleus,
That brought down many woes upon the heads of the Acheans,
And sent many strong souls of heroes to the house of Hades,
But left their bodies as a feast to the dogs, and all the birds,
And so was the will of Zeus accomplished,
When first stood, breast to breast in strife,
The son of Atreus, lord of men, and godlike Achilleus.

Hi Arminius,

I'm scrolling down to try to see what I was referencing.

Of late, I have been "beginning to despair, to despair,
Despair, despair, despair, despair.
Spare! (Apologies to G.M. Hopkins)

Reading the most appalling stuff, an all out assault on the English language, part of a plot, I believe, that I cannot expose, since I must protect National Security. (Chuckle)

In the meantime, to protect sanity, I am rereading the Aneid, and saw Wiccan's post. Thought I had seen lines from it from you. What you posted from the Illiad, was it yesterday? What time, do you know? How far must I scroll down?

Did you post anything from the "Aneid"? Or am I now in yet another cloud of unknowing?

Farnaz

"It's not us and them, it's WE and WE",
as long as they agree with me.
Utopian at its core, but worth striving for?

Thanks Arminius

Farnaz:

Wait a minute - you must have known that those lines were from the Iliad. If you refer to the more recent Latin verses, they are from Carmina Burana, immortalized by Carl Orff's great music. But you must have known that too.... I'm at a loss here.

Arminius

Re: Philistines and Philistia in Isaiah 14:31:

Perhaps spidey doesn't realize that many translations of the Bible use the word "Philistines" in Isaiah 14:31. Perhaps he's ignorant of the fact that the word that is translated as "dissolved" in the KJV is translated as "melt away" and "melt in fear" in other versions.

EX: here's the verse as it appears in the "New Living Translation":

"Wail at the gates! Weep in the cities!
Melt with fear, you Philistines!
A powerful army comes like smoke from the north.
Each soldier rushes forward eager to fight."

Who knows what point spidey is trying to make with his harping on Philistia and dissolving? The only point that's clear is that he's ignorant of the Bible and Biblical scholarship, preferring to toe the John Hagee line of KJV literalism.

Simple strokes for simple folks.

Farnaz:

Williams' poem appeals to any cat lover!

The poetry I quoted - "Sing, goddess, the wrath of Peleus' son Achilleus..." - is the proem to the Iliad. Once, many decades ago, I read that in Greek. Strong stuff.

Arminius

Farnaz and Wiccan,

I still remember a fair bit of Latin; it's my Greek that is gone.

O Fortuna
Velut luna
Statu variablis
Semper crescis
Aut decrescis
Vita detestabilis
Nunc obdurat
Et tunc curat
Ludo mentis aciem.

I am of Clan Scott, and the clan motto is 'AMO'. I have always loved that, pun intended.

Biblical fundamentalists could gain much from the study of any number of Renaissance figures that found ways to transmute biblical literalism into much more profound and psychically satisfying spiritual gold through discrete 'alchemical' processes of personal transformation.

One such figure is Dr. John Dee, a devout Christian that was nevertheless a avowed Hermeticist and devotee of Phythagorean mysticism. He was said to straddle the worlds of religion and science most admirably at a time when science was coming into it's own in the early 16th century.

He was particularly interested the oracular abilities of one Edward Kelly, who was able to predict the future most accurately through the age-old medium of scrying - or the use of water as an oracle. The accuracy of Kelly's predictions were most impressive according to Dee's studies. He worked with Kelly for many years in an 'occult' partnership that attempted to penetrate the veils of the unseen worlds. His life is worth investigating as an introduction to the merging of religion, mysticism, and science during that historical period.

Atheists that are firmly grounded in our seemingly material based reality may find the study of alternate realities and consciousness studies intriguing - or not. It all depends on what floats your boat.......while much that formerly passed as iron-clad articles of religious faith are insupportable in a modern science-based world, surely not everything about religion can be discounted.

Anyway, in all my years of studying the occult, including near-death experiences, out-of-body and astral experiences, communications with the dead, psychedelic and medicinally induced travels to alternate realities, and the whole panoply of esoteric schools in other times and places over many centuries, I have seen little to support the contention that the bible is literally correct as an infallible guide to spiritual truth or is representative of a singular spiritual reality.

Among esotericists of many stripes there is a dearth of evidence in their reports to support that contention that God is a Being as commonly understood - much less a Creator Being. This simple concept seems to appeal to those that can't comprehend more complex ideas, or multi-dimensional realities that in fact may have existed for all time. Spiritual realities have to be experienced rather than logically deduced. It's as simple as that.

Fundamentalists have to understand that they come off as simple-minded dolts to others that may or may not have an abiding interest in the history of religions and religiously based behavior, but are otherwise broadly educated in many different areas, and are perhaps even expert in their field.

Spiritual experience both simple and profound must still be based in human consciousness - but deep spiritual experience does tend to render biblical thinking as both simplistic and grossly inaccurate in terms of representing spiritual realities.

The fact is, scriptural and biblical experts and religious historians these days cast great doubt on the literal authenticity of much that is taken as 'gospel' by true believers, and that don't have the benefit of broad and eclectic academic study often resulting in advanced degrees - for what that may be worth.

Biblical fundamentalists really need to read more and spout their uninformed nonsense far less often.

Farnaz-

I confess that my Latin classes were long ago, and the best I can do is:

Amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant

and

Omnia Gallia est divisa in partes tres...

Dear Arminius,

The words came from your soul.

You mention Spiderman. Yes, but you know, Spiderman knows other things, beautiful psalms set to music.

He will tell you where to find them, if you ask him.

You understand....

What do you think of Williams' poem? I read your lines from Virgil, were they not? And did not Wiccan reply with reference to her Latin training, her having studied the "Aneid" with the man who might have written it!!! (chuckle)

I envy Wiccan, indeed. Yeats said, "I have forgotten all my Hebrew." Well, the words hounded him for the rest of his life.

In the same vein, "I have forgotten all my Latin."

Regards,
Farnaz

Farnaz:

Thanks, friend. When I wrote those poor verses, as I reached the end, that phrase was simply jerked out of my heart. No thought required. I realized then that it was what I wanted to say all along, and that it is a good summary of what I believe and how I try to live my life.

Why Spidey insists on having foes instead of friends is beyond me. That's not what Jesus taught.

Arminius

Poem (As the cat)


As the cat
climbed over
the top of

the jamcloset
first the right
forefoot

carefully
then the hind
stepped down
into the pit of
the empty
flowerpot

William Carlos Williams

For Arminius, Wiccan, others cat inspired, while I seek for cat poetry site.

The Naming of Cats

The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter,
It isn't just one of your holiday games;
You may think at first I'm as mad as a hatter
When I tell you, a cat must have THREE DIFFERENT NAMES.
First of all, there's the name that the family use daily,
Such as Peter, Augustus, Alonzo or James,
Such as Victor or Jonathan, or George or Bill Bailey -
All of them sensible everyday names.
There are fancier names if you think they sound sweeter,
Some for the gentlemen, some for the dames:
Such as Plato, Admetus, Electra, Demeter -
But all of them sensible everyday names.
But I tell you, a cat needs a name that's particular,
A name that's peculiar, and more dignified,
Else how can he keep up his tail perpendicular,
Or spread out his whiskers, or cherish his pride?
Of names of this kind, I can give you a quorum,
Such as Munkustrap, Quaxo, or Coricopat,
Such as Bombalurina, or else Jellylorum -
Names that never belong to more than one cat.
But above and beyond there's still one name left over,
And that is the name that you never will guess;
The name that no human research can discover -
But THE CAT HIMSELF KNOWS, and will never confess.
When you notice a cat in profound meditation,
The reason, I tell you, is always the same:
His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation
Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:
His ineffable effable
Effanineffable
Deep and inscrutable singular Name.

T.S. Eliot

Wiccan,

Thanks, dear lady, from my heart. You move me deeply. I will cherish that laurel wreath forever.

Arminius

Arminius:

"It's not us and them, but WE and WE."

Amen, Arminius, amen

I've quoted you several times, and not only on this thread.

We and We

Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, agnostics, Hindus, Jains, Bahais, Wiccans, et al.

With faith, without, with proof without,
it's We and We

Farnaz

Spiderman2-

I firmly believe that I was put on this sweet Earth to learn as much as I can. I will accept your judgement that my interpretation (shared by many biblical scholars) is wrong ONLY IF you give me the right one. If you can't do that, then you are nothing more than a small boy crying "I know something that you don't!", and I will give you your due respect.

Arminius-

There has been great poetry posted here, some scathing, some hilarious, some haunting, but your poem had me tearing up at the end. That's what great poetry is supposed to do, engage the mind, the heart, and the soul.

(Places laurel wreath on Arminius's head)

Thank you, dear friend.

spiderman2: "If that verse is not credible, there would be no Palestina by now. But it is still there and the verse is yet to happen in the coming years. The "rod of him that smote thee" is not broken yet but it will break soon.
Now, you get some idea?"

Ah, so you reject that the prophesy of this verse was fulfilled in 2Kings chapter 18? I would like to know how you come to that conclusion since it seems very clear, unless you simply want to take a prophesy that was fulfilled, call it unfulfilled, and apply it to today, as so many religious fanatics over the years have done.

S C Cromett:

"I should know better than trying to help educate willfully ignorant "know-it-alls" who know nothing and want to know less. "

Spidey and his like will never listen. As Lazarus Long said:
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Arminius
It's not us and them, but WE and WE.

I gave so many clues already. Try to solve the rest of it.

C ya later guys.

I should know better than trying to help educate willfully ignorant "know-it-alls" who know nothing and want to know less.

There are so many thoughtful people of faith and non-faith here that it is worth reading the diversity of opinion, but some people clearly are a waste of time. It's amazing that they aren't White House policy advisors.

Oh well, back to the Austin lunge Lizards . . . and bring back the poetry!

cromett wrote "Do you actually hear a voice in your head. Or do you mere consider your own odd opinion the word of God? "

It's called TUNING. The scripture speaks and the reader undertands.

You play music and the dogs won't care. Their ears are not "tuned" to music.

God tuned our ears to understand the Word but you're still "untuned". Unlearned or supertitious in other words.

Superstitious worry about global warming. What Global warming? A big part of the population of this earth will DISSOLVE.

"Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art DISSOLVED: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times." (Isaiah 14:31)

spiderman2 spouted: "The interpretation is so bad that if ever this was a school exam, you'll fail the subject outright. Palestina is not Philistines."

As already pointed out you are comparing a land to a people. I was not doing that. I described what the scripture means. Who would (and did) Hezekiah destroy according to this prophesy? Was it Palestine, or the Philistines? Was it a land or the particular people that lived in it?

And I noticed you did not even attempt to interpret the scripture I presented. Why are you avoiding giving us your brilliant insight on it?

Medievalist:

Yes, yes, please, more moderns, more contemporaries. Poems like "Chagall's Fall." I posted "Facing It" somewhere.

More moderns, please. People you personally know.

More of the fine talent from those we virtually know here, reality wise.

Farnaz

If that verse is not credible, there would be no Palestina by now. But it is still there and the verse is yet to happen in the coming years. The "rod of him that smote thee" is not broken yet but it will break soon.

Now, you get some idea?

Jihadist,

Final thoughts: If I so inclined, I could in a few seconds find, words from you that any Jew would see as offense from out of the blue. Something we are used to, but never get accustomed to.

I passed your by. And they were your words. I'd had enough of being offended, and I'd begun to understand what others had told me about someone else's post.

Yours, however, was a different matter.

Salaam, Shalom.

Farnaz

PS. Wallace Stevens, anyone?

PPS. O, Piper's son/Don't mess it up for everyone.

I personally know many fine vintners that turn water into wine on a daily basis - I have sampled this alchemical creation, homeopathic medicinal fluid, & delightful nectar of the gods on numerous occasions. May I recommend a fine Cabernet while enjoying the enchanting music created during the reign of Queen Elizabeth - and perhaps the poetic musings of John Donne??

Both Julian Bream and John Renbourne have transcribed this music for lute and guitar - I guarantee, you will be transported to another world.

Perhaps something more modern? ______

"And I don't give a damn about a greenback dollar, spend it fast as I can, a wailing song and good guitar, are the only things that I understand, poor boy, the only things that I understand".

The Kingston Trio

cromett, don't play with words. JUST SOLVE THE VERSE IF YOU CAN. Fate got zero. Let's see if you can get a higher score.

Cromett wrote "The Peleset became the Philistines of the Bible,.."

Ok if that is true,then lets call the upcoming Nation of Palestine as the new nation of Philistines. You go there and see their reaction. Im not sure though if you'll still have your head attached as you leave the place.

Go back to school with Fate. You both fail the subject. Philitine is just a small part or tribe of the whole Palestina. Read the definition of both. Google it.

You wrote "It's called agriculture"

Yeah and it's called plants making food not humans. Admission is closed. You can't be enrolled anymore,. Too many failed subjects.

spiderman2:

"Man created the computer. If one says that it just sprout there from nowhere, THAT IS SUPERSTITION."

And the difference between believing that, and accepting the word of a tribe of goatherders who lived 2,000 years ago, as interpreted by numerous mortals is? Nothing.

"We converse with our God that is why I am able to decipher that verse. I know Him personally, but you don't."

There is a word for people who converse with something that isn't there: schizophrenic. Do you actually hear a voice in your head. Or do you mere consider your own odd opinion the word of God?

Ah, but JIHADIST, CCNLs verse was a love poem to you....

If I had the time now, I would dig up verses to me, from a poet whose work was superior to that of the piper's son. "T'was an Irish Cathloc's son/ and he poked fun at everyone."

All CCNL did was to say, much less offensively in verse, what he has endlessly said in lists and in prose. Let us not forget that I, for one, wrote him quite a lengthy scathing reply when he did, in my view, cross the line with you.

But Speed123 has done so repeatedly on this blog and the silence from you has been resounding. A Jew Hater, poor tormented soul, whom I hope Wallace Stevens can minister to/on his Jew-hating, I heard nothing from you. And not only you....

If my amusement at CCNLs verse offended you, I am deeply sorry. I read it as a "love poem" to you, and I still do.

(CCNL: Josefus tossed. All gone byebye. More to follow in your de-programming.

I second E Fav, to all the poets here, great work, and thank you, thank you, thank you!

I'm with Arminius. Only WE, only WE (and that goes for all the I's in WE, including thee, including me)

Farnaz

PS. Somewhere, I've seen a very good Atheist's poem or prayer/but I don't remenber where./If anyone knows/please give it a go!

PPS. Wallace Stevens, Anyone?

Fate , it is impossible to turn water into wine and that is exactly the point why we worship Jesus. What kind of logic are you using?

It's imposible also that you can interpret that Bible verse because that verse is WAY TOO INTELLIGENT for you to understand. Why would I ask it if I know you can answer it?

Got the point?

Man created the computer. If one says that it just sprout there from nowhere, THAT IS SUPERSTITION.

We converse with our God thatis why Iam able to decipher that verse. I know Him personally, but you don't.

It's like, I know Microsoft made Windows but tribesmen in far flung areas don't. They'd be superstitious if you show them the computer. Just as you are superstitious when you say, "THE SOIL TURNED TO HUMAN BRAIN BY ITSELF" OR "the computer did it by itself".

Im over with you now. Next superstitious fellow please!!

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Hmmm, "brainwashed to seek"??? Considering your belief in pretty, wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingies, you have long journey yet to travel. But again we offer a short path to reality and truth via our Five Step Program to Deflaw Islam of Its Errors, Muck and Stench: (feel free to distribute the program at your conference)

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

"Palestina, Palestine... Do they sound familiar?"

Of course they sound familiar, because they are all derived from the ancient Sea People known as the Peleset who occupied what is now Palestine about 1180 BCE. The Peleset became the Philistines of the Bible, were know to the Greeks as the Phoenicians and then the Romans named the area Palestina, from which Palestine is derived.

spiderman2 wrote: "Superstition like soil turning into human brains thru billions of years like SLOW MAGIC?"

That is not superstition, that is a hypothesis of science. Superstition would have such a thing happen much faster, like 6 days.

spiderman2 wrote: "You guys are magicians. When will you learn true science? Impossible means impossible and that's part of science."

-Impossible according to science:
-Water -> Wine
-Rising from the dead
-A cockatrice
-Starlight created "in transit"
-A 6000 year old earth
-Dinosaurs living with man
-Kangaroos from the ark hopping straight to Australia from Mt. Ararat.
-Species having a lot of variation as evidenced in dogs, but that variation magically not being able to cause a separate species.
-A dome covering the earth which the sun and moon ride along, with starlight being just flickers of light peeking through from heaven.

"Can humans turn soil into food? IMPOSSIBLE. And yet they "know" where everything had come from."

It's called agriculture.

Kudos to all the fine poets here.

What follows is original, with apologies to no one and with gratitude to the muse.

Poetry: expression of the human or divine?
Poetry: expression of our soul or of our mind?
Inspired from within or from beyond,
It matters not to me, for can’t you see
The boundless, soaring reach of poetry?

Fate wrote "The Philistines will be destroyed even though the bad leader has died..."

The interpretation is so bad that if ever this was a school exam, you'll fail the subject outright. Palestina is not Philistines.

Palestina, Palestine... Do they sound familiar?

region de Palestina, Palestine (from Greek: Παλαιστίνη. Compare Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: פלשתינה‎ Palestina; is a widely-attested Western and Near Eastern conventional name which is used, among others, to describe the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River and various adjoining lands.

If it's wrong the first step, it's wrong in the other steps so it's no use that I spend time to your other queries. Your score is zero. Repeat the subject and listen carefully the next time. OK?

gerry wrote "through sheer superstition, to turn reasoned people to fools."

Superstition like soil turning into human brains thru billions of years like SLOW MAGIC? Nice poem by the way but poems are a kind of art also like magic.

You guys are magicians. When will you learn true science? Impossible means impossible and that's part of science.

Can humans turn soil into food? IMPOSSIBLE. And yet they "know" where everything had come from.

Let your evolutionist friends and profs write poems instead. They are fun to read and most of all unlike evolution they have to earn their keep thru sheer talent and not lying thru their teeth.

"What a sad state our news media is in. They have moved from news gatherers to entertainment. Maybe the FCC should consider pulling licenses for not fulfilling their public trust. Those are America's airwaves they are broadcasting over. They only lease them with a promise to meet certain public services. Their service to the public has certainly declined in the past 30 years, culmunating with the calamity of a public who listened to the news for information about the 2004 candidates and reelected the worst president in history."

FATE,
How right you are. But then, the current administration abolished most of the public interest requirements and licensing reviews to help their corporate buddies gain complete control of the nation's media. The idea of "news from Disney" is quite frightening.

- Cockatrice - mythical creature with a rooster's head and the tail of a serpent and used as a literary device by writers of the Elizabethan era. An addendum - one should be all means listen to some of the world's greatest music from this era....as played by Julian Bream on lute and guitar - truly breathtaking.

- If the sun is shining here it is likely to be missing altogether in other parallel dimensions, according to the 'many world's' theorem supported by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. According to this thinking we must have an infinite number of possible or probable worlds in order to have the one we happen to be living on. Each world will be different in an unpredictable number of ways.

- Changing water to wine requires a transmogrifier - created by Calvin and Hobbes. This device can change anything into anything, but is notoriously hard to come by, especially in biblical times. However, much is lost during the conversion process - you might end up with one bottle of wine for every 100 gallons of water used. We should be careful what we wish for - particularly if we live in the desert.

Wiccan, Arminius

"Drop Kick Me Jesus" is a classic, too.

We have to find something to laugh about. So much of the postings here are so unfunny.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

born to be free
bred to a fine degree
brainwashed to seek
wherever truth reeks

history is a farce
truth is a force
whatever the cause
all is not lost

don't cross the line
so none will mind
all will be fine
and truth we'll find

--------------------------------------------------

In Yodaspeak - Love poetry we do. Poets we are not.

Not even parodies and bad versions of verses can stop poetry from being shared here.

Dare you hear your own voice? Not of your poets nor your poetry of choice?

No more spit for spat. Am preparing for a conference next week.

This thread is beginning to look like the one on MLK. Most talking about music there, and now poetry here. Not much on Wright, not much on colours, especially black and white. No colour comes after black. Every colour can turn black. Every heart can turn black. Every soul can be blue. Every face can be red.

fred sanders: "Wright is a black racist pure and simple.He obviously hates the white race and will say anything to cause racial hate between blacks and whites."

Since when did this blog turn into a commentary on what Wright said ... oh yea ... must have gotten caught up in all the distractions and poetry. I have no idea whether Wright is a racist or not, but what he has shown himself to be is someone who wants the spotlight, and the news media is glad to give it to him. Too bad the news media today picks such easy targets as Wright instead of digging deeper into what Obama and Clinton are saying they will do to improve America. I have heard little in the way of analysis of their promises, or McCain's, just a lot of repeating of single sound bites and gotchas with the only analysis being Hillary's laugh. I listened to one news program go over Hillary's laugh for 10 minutes, repeating the laugh about 30 times.

What a sad state our news media is in. They have moved from news gatherers to entertainment. Maybe the FCC should consider pulling licenses for not fulfilling their public trust. Those are America's airwaves they are broadcasting over. They only lease them with a promise to meet certain public services. Their service to the public has certainly declined in the past 30 years, culmunating with the calamity of a public who listened to the news for information about the 2004 candidates and reelected the worst president in history.

Little information has changed since before the 2004 election about what this administration was doing, yet that available information has taken years to filter out through our news medias. Bush's approval ratings today would have been at these low levels in 2004 had the news media done its job. America's free press has failed America and I don't see them changing their ways and, worse, they don't even seem to realize their failure.

spiderman2: "fate, please repost your previous post concerning that verse. It's not easy to scroll down back and forth."

Here ya go...

Let me see ... The Philistines will be destroyed even though the bad leader has died. The new leader, Hezekiah (cockatrice), will be worse than Uzziah (serpents root) had been. So don't rejoice because the whole land will be ruined from war (fiery serpent). This is part of Isasah 14 where God creates Zion for the Hebrew to escape from the coming wars that will destroy the Philistines.

Now, before you claim to understand science, please explain any of the following:
A)How does the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle allows the sun to shine?
B)What is a cockatice, where did the origin of the term come from, and does it exist or was it ever possible it existed?
C)What would be required to physically change water into wine and what would happen to the volume as the water changed to wine?

And while we're at it, let me also ask you to interpret a biblical quote:

"And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind; two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. Thus did Noah according to all that God commanded him, so did he."

Wright is a black racist pure and simple.He obviously hates the white race and will say anything to cause racial hate between blacks and whites.

Some spiderman suffered a spell:
He fancied he clearly could tell,
by distributing vouchers,
to the religious crouchers
who would wind up in heaven or hell.

He is a boy just over twenty,
too often to church service went he,
there is a small chance
that his mind will advance,
and stop reading the bible a-plenty.

Of course there are thousands of schools,
who use the religions as tools,
to complete their mission
through sheer superstition
to turn reasoned people to fools.

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

"Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom
Freedom at Last and much left to do!!!

Hammer it, hammer the Truth,
Nail it down, nail it now ,
Or tomorrow will never come."

Poets we are not so the Reality of it all once again:

A synopsis/hammer of the flaws, errors, muck and stench (the "fems") in the founders and foundations of the major religions for those whose eyes have not seen:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, muck, stench and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Spiderman2::)

there is no us with you
only us and us within us with you

what is the rest of us to you
but us and us us vs you and you

there is no we you and we us with you
only we and we and them and them with you

we and we and you and you
is of no use to you and you and us and us

--------------------------------------------------

there was a spiderman
who said he's the real man
we known for certain he's not tablet-man
and man to man, it's just Oh man!

spiderman2 has a spiderman two
an impersonator he goes after with goo,
now that there is an arachno one and two
we can treat their posts as just foo

Cheers
"J"

Hello Mary Cunningham,
and Arminius, Ryan Haber, Daniel in the Lion's Den, Soja, Viejita, Thomas Baum et al,

For what I am about to do
and may offend as I do

a point needs to be made
to those in tirade

they say the want the truth
all they give is a tooth

nary a good bite of life in reality
they merely can resort to infantility

in blogs they always slog
and what they say is an effete flog

--------------------------------------------------
Ohhhhh....did I take on Christianity and Judaism as yet? I don't think so. Only atheists the grandees of anti-religionsm and atheism as a cure all.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated actually expanded into "poetry" his prose!

And it's funny to Farnaz and Spiderman2? :)

Let us change CCNL's "poetry" with just few key words and see what happens:

O Christianity , Christianity,
violent Christianity,
from Jesus of immaculate conception,
a single, sex-free miracle-man

O Christianity, Christianity,
violent Christianity,
from Jesus the peaceman
Jesus the temple ruckusman

O Christianity, O Christianity,
violent Christianity,
Jesus the peacemonger
but Christians the hatemongers

O Christianity, O Christianity
violent Cristianity,
Protestants as masters of grate,
Catholics accused of too great

if Islam is violent
then Christianity is virulent
Judaism is tranculent
and Buddhism self-indulgent

Bravo and huzzah and horray,
the CCNL has shown quite an array
of those who are easy to sway
by what they wish to do away

fear does not give them courage
bigotry only eats them with rage
now we know where lies the guage
of the human heart easily fazed

the truth set us free
but only on what we see,
let there be no decree
on what we believe in any degree

Cheers
"J"

To Speed123: on learning someone else is posting in his name

O Speedy, dinna get upset
That someone's snagged your epithet!
You cannot know the ponderous path
The posts were taking!
And Farn's praise of her tolerance
Was sickness making!

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It was frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion;
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion.

(With apologies to one of my favourite poets, one R. Burns.)

CCNL,

I had thought you were Irish
but you don't have the ear--
too long in America,
conchie, my dear.

The second line should have a third whatever, makes it run faster, and adding Mary C. makes it awkward, Try it like this (Caps are the accents):

b b and b WASHED too
whatEVer whatEVer whatEVer
To Do?

MaryCunningham,

Hmmm, a programmed poster you say that I am now?? Borrowing then from the previous "free rhyme of Reality":

(MaryC) Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom
Freedom at Last and much left to do???

Hammering the Truth about Christianity one more time:

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

For CCNL

Tell me why it is
That the most programmed posters
Make bad rhymes, worse jokes?

For Spiderman: on announcing he would end every post with an anti-Catholic ‘benediction’.

O spidey, tho’ you scowl and splutter
In truth you’re not the av’rage nutter.
At athies you might get irate
But it’s the papists that you hate.
That they can irritate--it’s true--
But how, please tell, have they hurt you?

Tom, Tom, the piper's son,
He learned to play when he was young.
But all the tune that he could play. . . .
. . . . . . .

REALITY

O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, illiterate and hallucinating,
O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha greed and lustful, womanizing,
Was he too,
O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, warmongering and hateful,
Was he too,
O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Sunnis of hate, Shiites of late,
Even Pretty Wingie Thingies cannot
Save us from O Islam's hate.

Save us from these Islamic FEMs,
Flaws, Errors, Muck and Stench,
They ooze from the rocks of earth,
Like worms of death and wrench.

Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom
Freedom at Last and much left to do!!!

Hammer it, hammer the Truth,
Nail it down, nail it now ,
Or tomorrow will never come.

Hi Spiderman,

I think Jihadist might be amused. CCNL hasn't crossed (or Crossanized) the line in his verses, I don't think....

Goodnight, Spiderman

Neal,

Your poem is terrific. Proof, faith,belief, disbelief, etc. It really is Arminius's "WE" that's important for me.

I always like to read your posts. Often, they are so subdued and thoughtful in tone, regardless of the topic and your correspondant.

Farnaz

Same here, Farnaz. It was a funny poem (CCNL's). Im not sure though how Jihadist would take it. :)

I want to recommend Neil for his poem too. Very creative.

C ya later guys

Dear, Dear CCNL,

For the first time since I visited this blog, you have made me laugh and laugh and laugh.

You are a wonder to me, CCNL. You might enjoy the company of someone else on this thread.

There's this fellow named Tom who posts from time to time, not often, but if you spot him, you might want to acknowledge him.

Like you, though, he doesn't usually reply.

Farnaz

IS THERE SUCH A THING AS A BEST THREAD COMPETITION?

If not, could we start one?

Farnaz

PS. JIHADIST, although, alas, Chris Everett returneth not this eve, look whose muse-inspired verse breathes below my window?

Speaking of education and intelligence (that atheists are more intelligent than believers?), I still have to hear an atheist capable of interpreting this verse :

"Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent."

There are a lot of easier figures of speech in the Bible and yet atheist can't nail just one.

Now gather all the atheists in this land including Jacoby and prove yourself if you truly are educated and intelligent. Prove me wrong that atheism and ignorance are not twins.

"Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times." (Isaiah 14:31)

CCNL, Who knows what poetic depths lurk in the hearts of men?

Your Shadow knows....

Here! Believe this! It makes me feel good!
How nice for you. I wish that I could.

How can you not? It's the word of my god!
The one in the bush or the one that's a cod?

There is only one, those others are goofs!
Would it be all too much to ask for some proof?

You're missing the point. You must take the leap!
Sorry, but I'd rather not walk in my sleep.

Suit yourself friend, but there's hell to be paid!
Whatever you say Rev'rend...I remain unafraid.

Fate , as far I can remember you equate palestina with philitines. In that alone, you are wrong. Im sure the rest are wrong if you fail on the easiest part.

O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, illiterate and hallucinating,
O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha greed and lustful, womanizing,
Was he too,
O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, warmongering and hateful,
Was he too,
O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Sunnis of hate, Shiites of late,
Even Pretty Wingie Thingies cannot
Save us from O Islam's hate.

Save us from these Islamic FEMs,
Flaws, Errors, Muck and Stench,
They ooze from the rocks of earth,
Like worms of death and wrench.

Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom
Freedom at Last and much left to do!!!

Hammer it, hammer the Truth,
Nail it down, nail it now ,
Or tomorrow will never come.

fate, please repost your previous post concerning that verse. It's not easy to scroll down back and forth.

Hopeless Case:

RE: "Obfuse"

My best guess about "obfuse" is that it's a back formation from "obfuscate." English started with "beggar," for example, then went to "beg."

It happens. As we see, on this blog. ("Obfuse" could take on, if we all agreed to use it. Frankly, I prefer it. It's more ecomomical than "obuscate," more elegant, too.)

I know you're just having fun, but if obfuscate, we must, we not obfuse, instead?

spiderman2 wrote: "Im back. wiccan wrote "How did I do?" (pertaining to that palestina verse). As expected, you failed."

But of course you did not explain why she failed. You also did not explain what was the correct meaning. You just stated she failed, as though you have that power.

Well spidy, how did I do? And I want to hear why I failed, since I'm sure I did in your mind. I also want you to answer my challenge to interpret a passage from the bible I chose. You seem to have ignored it but you can scroll down and read my post at April 30, 2008 12:48 PM.

Eagerly awaiting your response,
Fate

Brambleton wrote: "The point about education is moot. There is no statistical analysis of any kind, anywhere, which supports your theory. Granted, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how absurd it is."

Well thanks for letting me have an opinion. But you are wrong according to this website (a-deism.blogspot.com/2007/06/inverse-correlations.html) which states, among other things:
"Of 43 studies carried out since 1927 on the relationship between religious belief and one's intelligence and/or educational level, all but four found an inverse connection. That is, the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious or hold "beliefs" of any kind."

Brambleton wrote: "As an aside, which person below do you believe is more likely to be more culturally literate?
A) Dave went to public high school and graduated from a public university. Dave grew up in a secular family and dismisses God as nothing more than a drug for the weak.
B) Aaron was a classmate of Dave's in high school and college. Aaron grew up in a Christian family and accepted Christ into his life shortly after graduating college.

Your premise seems to be that since Dave and Aaron have the same education, they are equal, except for that little extra something, religion, that Aaron has. But what you seem to be concluding to be more is actually less. For example, if Aaron had decided that Islam, instead of christianity, seemed to serve his needs after college, and ran off to Pakistan to train in a Madrassa and later came to believe in jihad and terrorism, your logic concludes Aaron is the more culturally literate, and thus more educated than Dave. But I think we might agree that Aaron is living outside the real world, believing in 72 virgins and paradise if he dies in jihad. Aaron is living in a deluded reality and so, though he has many more perspectives on human culture than Dave, it does not make him more intelligent necessarily, and by believing such hogwash I submit makes his view of reality skewed, thus reducing intelligence.

Now replace Islam with christianity. Is the delusion there as well? Heaven, hell, angels, miracles, rising from the dead, looking forward to an apocalypse? Your argument that belief is a form of added intelligence is directly refuted by fervently religious people building "creation institutes" and museums showing how man hunted dinosaurs even though there is no evidence of it, except as construed from the bible. That my friend is an example of delusion at work and how religion can lower intelligence, and how the less educated would be more willing to not challenge such unbelievable nonsense. So Dave is the one who is living in the real world and is not surprised when his prayers are not answered because prayer is a fable. He does not act as a good person out of fear of hell or the reward of heaven. He acts good because being good is its own reward. He lives by the golden rule since it is morally correct and logically correct. He even believes Aaron should be allowed to worship in his imagined beliefs as much as he wants, because he believes in freedom, something Aaron cannot understand since there is a God up there with a stick ready to smite him if he does not do as God wishes, as his pastor interprets for him.

Religion does not allow for freedom nor debate, so Aaron votes as he thinks his pastor, and thus God, wishes, while Dave votes based on the realities facing him and the society he lives in. Dave is his own man. Aaron is a captive of the adopted beliefs of others. Which would you want as a friend? Which would you turn to if a tornado was heading your way? Which would you ask for an honest opinion on the latest scientific discovery, or cancer research, or how the Appalachian mountains were formed? Which would you want to lead this nation?

If Speed123 is out there, there is a kind of blessed rage for order, don't you think?

A blessed kind?

The Idea of Order at Key West
by Wallace Stevens

She sang beyond the genius of the sea.
The water never formed to mind or voice,
Like a body wholly body, fluttering
Its empty sleeves; and yet its mimic motion
Made constant cry, caused constantly a cry,
That was not ours although we understood,
Inhuman, of the veritable ocean.

The sea was not a mask. No more was she.
The song and water were not medleyed sound
Even if what she sang was what she heard,
Since what she sang was uttered word by word.
It may be that in all her phrases stirred
The grinding water and the gasping wind;
But it was she and not the sea we heard.

For she was the maker of the song she sang.
The ever-hooded, tragic-gestured sea
Was merely a place by which she walked to sing.
Whose spirit is this? we said, because we knew
It was the spirit that we sought and knew
That we should ask this often as she sang.

If it was only the dark voice of the sea
That rose, or even colored by many waves;
If it was only the outer voice of sky
And cloud, of the sunken coral water-walled,
However clear, it would have been deep air,
The heaving speech of air, a summer sound
Repeated in a summer without end
And sound alone. But it was more than that,
More even than her voice, and ours, among
The meaningless plungings of water and the wind,
Theatrical distances, bronze shadows heaped
On high horizons, mountainous atmospheres
Of sky and sea.
It was her voice that made
The sky acutest at its vanishing.
She measured to the hour its solitude.
She was the single artificer of the world
In which she sang. And when she sang, the sea,
Whatever self it had, became the self
That was her song, for she was the maker. Then we,
As we beheld her striding there alone,
Knew that there never was a world for her
Except the one she sang and, singing, made.

Ramon Fernandez, tell me, if you know,
Why, when the singing ended and we turned
Toward the town, tell why the glassy lights,
The lights in the fishing boats at anchor there,
As the night descended, tilting in the air,
Mastered the night and portioned out the sea,
Fixing emblazoned zones and fiery poles,
Arranging, deepening, enchanting night.

Oh! Blessed rage for order, pale Ramon,
The maker’s rage to order words of the sea,
Words of the fragrant portals, dimly-starred,
And of ourselves and of our origins,
In ghostlier demarcations, keener sounds.

The Idea of Order at Key West
by Wallace Stevens

She sang beyond the genius of the sea.
The water never formed to mind or voice,
Like a body wholly body, fluttering
Its empty sleeves; and yet its mimic motion
Made constant cry, caused constantly a cry,
That was not ours although we understood,
Inhuman, of the veritable ocean.

The sea was not a mask. No more was she.
The song and water were not medleyed sound
Even if what she sang was what she heard,
Since what she sang was uttered word by word.
It may be that in all her phrases stirred
The grinding water and the gasping wind;
But it was she and not the sea we heard.

For she was the maker of the song she sang.
The ever-hooded, tragic-gestured sea
Was merely a place by which she walked to sing.
Whose spirit is this? we said, because we knew
It was the spirit that we sought and knew
That we should ask this often as she sang.

If it was only the dark voice of the sea
That rose, or even colored by many waves;
If it was only the outer voice of sky
And cloud, of the sunken coral water-walled,
However clear, it would have been deep air,
The heaving speech of air, a summer sound
Repeated in a summer without end
And sound alone. But it was more than that,
More even than her voice, and ours, among
The meaningless plungings of water and the wind,
Theatrical distances, bronze shadows heaped
On high horizons, mountainous atmospheres
Of sky and sea.
It was her voice that made
The sky acutest at its vanishing.
She measured to the hour its solitude.
She was the single artificer of the world
In which she sang. And when she sang, the sea,
Whatever self it had, became the self
That was her song, for she was the maker. Then we,
As we beheld her striding there alone,
Knew that there never was a world for her
Except the one she sang and, singing, made.

Ramon Fernandez, tell me, if you know,
Why, when the singing ended and we turned
Toward the town, tell why the glassy lights,
The lights in the fishing boats at anchor there,
As the night descended, tilting in the air,
Mastered the night and portioned out the sea,
Fixing emblazoned zones and fiery poles,
Arranging, deepening, enchanting night.

Oh! Blessed rage for order, pale Ramon,
The maker’s rage to order words of the sea,
Words of the fragrant portals, dimly-starred,
And of ourselves and of our origins,
In ghostlier demarcations, keener sounds.

The Idea of Order at Key West
by Wallace Stevens

She sang beyond the genius of the sea.
The water never formed to mind or voice,
Like a body wholly body, fluttering
Its empty sleeves; and yet its mimic motion
Made constant cry, caused constantly a cry,
That was not ours although we understood,
Inhuman, of the veritable ocean.

The sea was not a mask. No more was she.
The song and water were not medleyed sound
Even if what she sang was what she heard,
Since what she sang was uttered word by word.
It may be that in all her phrases stirred
The grinding water and the gasping wind;
But it was she and not the sea we heard.

For she was the maker of the song she sang.
The ever-hooded, tragic-gestured sea
Was merely a place by which she walked to sing.
Whose spirit is this? we said, because we knew
It was the spirit that we sought and knew
That we should ask this often as she sang.

If it was only the dark voice of the sea
That rose, or even colored by many waves;
If it was only the outer voice of sky
And cloud, of the sunken coral water-walled,
However clear, it would have been deep air,
The heaving speech of air, a summer sound
Repeated in a summer without end
And sound alone. But it was more than that,
More even than her voice, and ours, among
The meaningless plungings of water and the wind,
Theatrical distances, bronze shadows heaped
On high horizons, mountainous atmospheres
Of sky and sea.
It was her voice that made
The sky acutest at its vanishing.
She measured to the hour its solitude.
She was the single artificer of the world
In which she sang. And when she sang, the sea,
Whatever self it had, became the self
That was her song, for she was the maker. Then we,
As we beheld her striding there alone,
Knew that there never was a world for her
Except the one she sang and, singing, made.

Ramon Fernandez, tell me, if you know,
Why, when the singing ended and we turned
Toward the town, tell why the glassy lights,
The lights in the fishing boats at anchor there,
As the night descended, tilting in the air,
Mastered the night and portioned out the sea,
Fixing emblazoned zones and fiery poles,
Arranging, deepening, enchanting night.

Oh! Blessed rage for order, pale Ramon,
The maker’s rage to order words of the sea,
Words of the fragrant portals, dimly-starred,
And of ourselves and of our origins,
In ghostlier demarcations, keener sounds.

Hi Farnaz,

Im glad you liked the song. That's also one of my favorites.

About the WE, the reason Christians preach is because God wants to increase the residents of Heaven, to increase the WE. But the devil wants to obscure things and makes his own gospel preaching lies that nothing is true or false, and that all are children of God. That is false of course.

"WE are all children of God" may be pleasing to the ear but it's false.

Hi Spiderman,

You may well be right, but isn't there also a WE?

In addition to hell, there must also be a WE, at least I think so. Otherwise, I don't think there could be a Hell or a Heaven.

Beautiful songs....You know beautiful songs.

Catch up with you later, since I have to work now.

Regards,

Farnaz

Im back.

wiccan wrote "How did I do?" (pertaining to that palestina verse)

As expected, you failed. But nice try anyway. That's the problem with atheists and other people who speak against Christianity when they themselves are ignorant of what true Christianity is.

Arminius wrote " It's not us and them, it's WE and WE ".

God separates sin and righteousness, lies and truth. Jesus said few will go to heaven but many to hell. Jesus is the truth. That I believe. And it separates me from those who don't.

It's tempting to believe that there is no hell but I don't want to live in dreams. That separates me from those who want to fantasize that there is no hell, that there is no God, etc.

Beautiful, Armenius.

"It's not us and them, it's WE and WE"

Atheist, Christian, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Jain, Bahai, Wiccan, Agnostic--ALL

"it's WE and WE"

Thank you.

Farnaz

Image this.......the end,....
..your games of munipulation have run its course........good-bye is in order.

THE MODERATE BELIEVER'S LAMENT

That weird Ron Parsley
Reasons oh so sparsely.
And Jeremiah Wright,
Is lost in dark of night.
So much for all the Fundies,
Big wads are in their undies.
All the Fundies wander lost
Still on these blogs they post
Condemning those who don't agree
To hell's sadistic endless spree.

How 'bout the unbelievers?
What weird, sad, bad dream weavers!
United in their quest
To put religion all to rest
Half creation they ignore
Their arguments a bore.
The spirit they dare not go near
Creation's voice they do not hear
God's voice is clear and sure
'Creation's yours, please keep it pure!'

How is it then, I'm caught between
The Fundies and those who have not seen?
But Fundies hate both those who don't believe
And those like me, who can perceive
That it is not just black and white
And none hold keys to wrong and right.
Those who reject belief hold me to scorn
And all who see God's hand in dawn's soft morn.
We're all God's children, can't you see?
It's not us and them, it's WE and WE.

Arminius

E Favorite:

Really amazing. For future reference, "The Raven"? Other Poe?

I keep laughing while I'm about dreadful work (the horror, the horror).

Farnaz

Anonymous:

Thanks. I'm familiar with "obfuscate." It is "obfuses" that confuses.

E Favorite: Dazzling

E Fav,

I gotta hand it to you, that was a triumph. Good work, dude!

Arminius

Still No Chris Everett?

Ah, last post then.

i'm a banker by profession
and not a poet by compulsion
religion is one obsession
and faith is a passion.

See you around.

Cheers

"J"

E Favorite:

I am stunned and awe struck, awe struck and stunned.

With apologies to Longfellow

This is the presidential primary. The murmuring pundits and political operatives,
Covered with spin and campaign paraphernalia, indistinct in the voters’ eyes,
Stand like Druids of eld, with voices mad and prophetic,
Stand like cable news babes, with high cheekbones and big bosoms.
Loud from its rocky cavern, the deep-voiced Reverend Wright
Speaks, and in accents narcissistic answers the wail of the media.
This is the presidential primary, but where are the voters in all this,
Swayed by one voice, then by another as they switch channels frantically?
Where is the finale, the safe haven for American citizens?

oh my Chris Everett

I can't wait too long for your come-backs to my rapid doggerels.

Have fun composing your responses.

I got to go.

inventive invective takes time
make sure they do ryhme
resist from posting slime
lest they pollute this blog's clime

Cheers

"J"

obfuscate:

1. to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2. to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3. to darken.

Chris Everett:)

i am the pracer of the God prance
i am the dancer of the faith dance,
i am no seducer of the the dunces
only an pronouncer of the nuances

i am no spder weaving webs
nor i a belly dancer with veils,
my forte is returning stabs
of what that realists said are real

man is not finite
God is infinite,
our arguments are smites
for we are really mites

Cheers
"J"

Chris Everett:

Quick Congratulations: I've often read that the group of "greatest Englis-language poets" comprises four members.

Reading your poem, I have to say that the group may be increased by one.

Chris Everett-

Your mind gives you yeoman service. Well done!

I have a question for all the gang:

How come Susan Jacoby's thread consistently has so many more commenters than the other threads?

Arminius:

Sorry. I'm obviously not the one to be giving posting advice. I meant, if you click on "refresh," sometimes lost posts return. You said one of yours had vanished.

Also, what is "obfuse"? Can you clarifuscate?

Hopeless Case

Hopeless Case,

You said, twice at least, "Try refresh".

Huh? Say what? Ya lost me.... what's that about?

I have always gotten Speed123 and Spiderman confused. They each just say the same things over and over and over and over and over again. The only difference is, one of them hates Cahtolics and one of them is Catholic. So, their silly childishness just invites mischief-makers to impersonate them. Probabaly several people among us have been impersonating them. But is is hard to tell; how do you parody something that is already such an exagerated caricature?

Arminius:

Try refresh.

Farnaz-

I read "The Wasteland" at a vunerable time in my life. I still can't get much past "April is the cruelest month". But any man who can write

"Such as Munkustrap, Quaxo, or Coricopat,
Such as Bombalurina, or else Jellylorum-"

deserved a second chance.

To All-

May your May Day be bright with blessings!

Arminius:

Try the refresh key.

Chris, you offered us this:

Oh Jihadist, twirl and prance!
Charm us with "obfusing" dance
Trap us in the web you knit
Know your veils are infinite!

By the Good Lord, ya got a talent there, dude. Well done. My 'poetic' reply to Jihadist got lost in the general chaos. Nuts.

Arminius

Chris Everett,

whatever our intent
it always bring dissent,
never fear the vents
nor take to heart the rants

a believer knows no prance,
humility is the great stance,
shine on the light hence
so we will all not be dense

Cheers

"J"

Anonymous asked about "obfuse." I would like some clarifuscation, as well.

Congratulations on your poem, Chris Everett. Too early to tell if it is your magnum opus.

Yours is a great gift, Chris Everett.

The only place I've ever seen "obfuse" is on this blog. What does mean?

Oh Jihadist, twirl and prance!
Charm us with "obfusing" dance
Trap us in the web you knit
Know your veils are infinite!

Wiccan,

Technically, by Latin standards, the Aeneid is the best poem in the Latin language. But I still prefer Catullus... shame on me!

Da mi basia mille!

Arminius

"Arma virumque cano..."

We were taught the Aeneid in Latin by a woman who, in the class's opinion, must have taught Virgil himself. We were heartily sick of the "pious son" by semester's end.

Wiccan, dear friend,

I know that site for 'Congo'. Actually, I studied that text in high school, and later memorized the poem. My daughter, who composes here own good poetry, was once subjected to me thundering out Lindsay's great poem at full force, complete with beating my fist on the table, to 'Boom boom, BOOM!'. She actually got scared.... never seen me like that before. Oh, Lord.

Arminius

Speed123 wrote to Spiderman:

Got news for you, redneck spidy, I have never impersonated you on here...

As for your anti-Catholic statements, I could care less.

PS - how do you get wifi way out there in the Georgia sticks and is it tough typing with that hood on?

In any case, I have to side with the atheists on this guy - he is nutty!
..................................................

Please, scroll down and see my reply to Speed123.

..................................................

Dear Arminius, Wiccan,

I promise I will look for it, but I must depart for awhile.

Wiccan, you still feel the same way about "The Wasteland"? But not about all TSE?

Warmest regards,

Farnaz

Chris Everett:)

Oh chris, oh holy chris
give the holy hoots a miss,
nothing would be remiss
it is all but a hiss

this is not a flap
nor is this a rap,
don't fall in the trap
less you look like a sap

the fundies may be a curse
of atheists who are worse,
they do how to make verse
and not too bad with their prose

fundies may be wrathful
atheists may be spiteful,
but fundies are no fools
they have the holy books as tools

religion is no fraud
only the faithless are so fraught,
and so be this crowd
that gives each the rout

atheists say there is no God
others that there is no God but God,
and by God, let others gawk
at what we all try to hawk

And Happy Labour Day/May Day

Cheers
"J"

Farnaz:

If you can remember or find the link to the cat poems, I would love to have it. Also, I have two dogs too... I love all good animals.

Here are my favorite 8 lines of poetry:

Sing, Goddess, the wrath of Peleus' son Achilleus,
That brought down many woes upon the heads of the Acheans,
And sent many strong souls of heroes to the house of Hades,
But left their bodies as a feast to the dogs, and all the birds,
And so was the will of Zeus accomplished,
When first stood, breast to breast in strife,
The son of Atreus, lord of men, and godlike Achilleus.

Best wishes,

Arminius

Brambleton:

What is "evolutionary liberalism"? Do you mean the Theory of Evolution (ToE) in biology or some other kind of evolutionary process?

I never forgave TS Elliot for "The Wasteland". Dreadful thing to read when you're 15.

Farnaz, yes, please do find the site on cat poems again. This thread has sent me running to the bookcases all day.

Arminius, I found a site that has "Congo", with directions how to read it aloud. It will have to wait until I have more energy.

Speed123:

It is possible that you are not the person impersonating Spiderman. I'm not certain of that, but you are the person who posted visciously to me under Speed123 and also under Anonymous.

You have said viscious and hateful things under other names. You saw the posts last night btw. Spiderman and me. I did the work I promised Spiderman I would do.

Now, out you come like a little bit of spider food when Spiderman announces he's gone.

You can side with whomever you wish. Atheists, Protestants, et al, are not, by definition, impersonators, fabricators of identities, bigots.

But you will never side with me, Speed, because I am a Jew. Yet, Spiderman and I correspond with civility and respect. Spiderman knows I am a brown Persian woman, and a Jew, yet we write respectfully to one another.

Now, when one thinks of moral intelligence and character, who comes out ahead?

Speed, you are a tormented soul, and I do not wish to add to your suffering.

I wish you peace. (Shalom, Salaam)

Farnaz

PS. I support Bud's idea about posting. No more fake identities, etc.

"Congo," yes!! And TSE!! You are a cat person/poetry lover!!

Found a site on cat poems, but lost it in rush to get back here.

Can look for it later, if you're interested? Post to let me know, since I must leave now.

Warmest regards,

Farnaz

Sputterman2:

Pfffftt!!!! Blaaat!!!! Blup

Bill?

Bill the Cat?!

AAAck!

Got news for you, redneck spidy, I have never impersonated you on here...

As for your anti-Catholic statements, I could care less.

PS - how do you get wifi way out there in the Georgia sticks and is it tough typing with that hood on?

In any case, I have to side with the atheists on this guy - he is nutty!

E Favorite:

Or..."April is the cruelest month"

Goes well with campaign on any number of levels, in my humble opinion. (Apologies, TSE)

Farnaz

Farnaz:

WOW! That one by Keats is new to me, thanks. I have three cats, and can relate to it very well. What do you think of T S Eliot's 'Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats'? One of my favorites, and, of course, the inspiration for the remarkable musical production, 'Cats'.

Also, relating to poetry and sound. The most thunderous poem in the English language is the first stanza of Vachel Lindsay's 'Congo'. Not considered 'politically correct' in this day. But a poem that illustrates perfectly that all poetry must be SPOKEN, not read silently. And when spoken, that poem is pretty powerful.

With respect,

Arminius

"Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent."

Yhis is from Isaiah:14-29. Some interpretations of this verse believe it refers to Uzziah, King of Judah in the 700s BCE. He became so powerful he went to the temple to burn incense to God, and God struck him with leprosy for his impertinence; thus, "the rod of him that smote thee is broken". Uzziah is therefore the serpent, and Hezekiah, one of his descendants, is held to be the cockatrice, a mythical creature, something of a cross between a rooster and a lizard or snake.

How did I do?

Hi Arminius,

I was looking for another Williams poem to suggest to E Favorite as a model, you know the one with the cat?

And I found this. What do you think? (I'm suffering from associational mania.)

To Mrs Reynold's Cat

Cat! Who hast past thy Grand Climacteric,
How many mice and Rats hast in thy days
Destroy'd - how many tit bits stolen? Gaze
With those bright languid segments green and prick
Those velvet ears - but pr'ythee do not stick
Thy latent talons in me - and upraise
Thy gentle mew - and tell me all thy frays
Of Fish and Mice, and Rats and tender chick.
Nay look not down, nor lick thy dainty wrists -
For all the wheezy Asthma, -and for all
Thy tail's tip is nicked off - and though the fists
Of many a maid have given thee many a maul,
Still is that fur as soft as when the lists
In youth thou enter'dst on glass- bottled wall.

John Keats 1818

Farnaz:

YES!

In Xanadu did Kublai Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
.....

Got it in my memory too. Dynamite poem.

Arminius

C ya later guys, i'll be back in an hour or 2. I would start posting those pope statement once speed123 messes with me again.

Maybe the following statements will prevent speed123 from impersonating me. Every post that I write, I'll be putting these following statements :

*The Pope is the embodiment of LIES and the Devil.
*The Catholic church is a church of LIES.

Now everytime speed123 impersonates me, I will try to add to these statements. He respects the pope more than anything else so I guess it would prevent him from saying these statements.

E Favorite:

How about Longfellow, "Evangeline," or the like, and campaign?

Or Whitman?

Or--"Kubla Khan"?

STC:

Deepest, profoundest apologies to you, for whom I have endless respect as an artist and thinker. STC--possibly you qualify as a poet whose ethics were exemplary. "Kubla Khan"--best example of sound in English poetry I've ever seen. Committed it to memory via mother before I set foot in US.

Can always revive it within me....

STC, these are desperate times. You will forgive us and I know you will like whatever E Favorite comes up with, if E takes me up on suggestion.

I left with this post :

***
"The Bible is a book of knowledge. Before you can claim to have a right to understand Christianity, start by explaining this verse Bible first. Interpret it.

"Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent."

****

So far I've heard so many arguments claiming christianity is this or that. Unless you guys can interpret that verse, you don't have any right to say what is a Christain and what is not a Christian.

Catholics here who claim to be Christians are all fake Christians. Atheists here are wasting your time with these guys.

Pfffftt!!!! Blaaat!!!! Blup.

The following are fake spiderman2. I didn't use anonymous or any other name either. These are the posts under the fake spidey. Any other posts using other names but implying he is spidey is also false.

******
That was not me in the last post. It was Speed123 pretendin g to be me.

Come on now Speed123. I know it's you pretending to be me, but the poster to Bud was the real me.

I'm real tired of people pretending to be me. I think I'll stop posting here.

******

It's clear speed123 is serving his devil father again.

"... and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Bible says that LIARS go to hell.

It's not unusual for a staunch catholic to LIE. Speed123, I'm not SURPRISED. Stop claiming to be a Christian. You're just wasting your time coz you'll still go to hell.

The Bible said so.

The following are fake spiderman2. I didn't use anonymous or any other name either. These are the posts under the fake spidey. Any other posts using other names but implying he is spidey is also false.

******
That was not me in the last post. It was Speed123 pretendin g to be me.

Come on now Speed123. I know it's you pretending to be me, but the poster to Bud was the real me.

I'm real tired of people pretending to be me. I think I'll stop posting here.

******

It's clear speed123 is serving his devil father again.

"... and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Bible says that LIARS go to hell.

It's not unusual for a staunch catholic to LIE. Speed123, I'm not SURPRISED. Stop claiming to be a Christian. You're just waisting your time coz you'll still go to hell.

The Bible said so.

Anonymous:

"Chagall's Fall of Icarus." Never saw it before. Amazing. Googled and found author. Haven't seen his work before, I'm pretty certain.
Any other poems of his you'd recommend?

ONe of the things I like most about Chagall is the endless ways in which he painted his wife, the endless myths in which he placed her, while keeping the concrete reality of her always ever present in life and work.

The poem--I don't even know where to begin....

Can you post under your name? Or a name.

BUD,

I think you have a good suggestion. This impersonating, fabricating identities is irritating.

ALL ORIGINAL POETS HERE:

Great work. E FAVORITE, how about some more of same? E.g. Emerson just a suggestion. HOw about WCW--The Red Wheelbarrow, etc.

Farnaz

The following are fake spiderman2. I didn't use anonymous or any other name either. These are the posts under the fake spidey. Any other posts using other names but implying he is spidey is also false.

******
That was not me in the last post. It was Speed123 pretendin g to be me.

Come on now Speed123. I know it's you pretending to be me, but the poster to Bud was the real me.

I'm real tired of people pretending to be me. I think I'll stop posting here.

******

It's clear speed123 is serving his devil father again.

OH HELL, that last 'poem' was from me, Arminius, to Jihadist! I was too excited, and screwed up the address.

More doggerel -

Jihadist sings
With biting verse
The Fundies cringe
Their case the worse.

They cannot match
Malaysia's best
They slink away
They fail the test.

All hail to reason!
Some of us can think
Jihadist's a rose
The Fundies stink!

- Arminius

Dear Thomas Paul Moses Baum,

I just noticed that your given name is 75% Biblically derived, and that your surname - Baum - is German for "tree"...which I assume your parents intended as a synonym for the cross.

Sorta scary stuff, my friend!

Dear Thomas "The Baummeister" Baum -

I have no idea what you're talking about.

MR MARK

Just because someone puts a label on themself does not mean that the label actually fits.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Holy crap!
Look at this flap!
Propelled by Sputterman2's claptrap.

Set to verse
The fundies curse
The born-agains are at their worst.

Some are spiteful
Downright rude
A messed-up rhythmic interlude

But ol' Religion's
Still a fraud
The truth is this: There is no God.

And Jihadist has just dealt the death blow! I can't breathe. Please stop before I have to read some TS Eliot for some balance.

Jihadist!

Two thumbs up! I love you! Keep it coming.

Arminius

What? thinks:

"A cleft palate is a birth defect. It is not a disease."

A cleft palate is what science calls a congenital deformity. At present, science cannot explain fully explain the cause of 40-60% of birth defects. However, only 12-25% of birth defects have a purely genetic explanation, and of these, most are due to a chromosomal abnormality.

Specifically, a cleft palate may be caused by non-genetic agents.

"Environmental influences may also cause, or interact with genetics to produce, orofacial clefting. Scientists have investigated seasonal causes (such as pesticide exposure); maternal diet and vitamin intake; retinoids- which are members of the vitamin A family; anticonvulsant drugs; alcohol; cigarette use; nitrate compounds; organic solvents; parental exposure to lead; and illegal drugs (cocaine, crack cocaine, heroin, etc.) as teratogens that increase the possibility of clefting.

"If a person is born with a cleft, the chances of that person having a child with a cleft, given no other obvious factor, rises to 1 in 14. Research continues to investigate the extent to which Folic acid can reduce the incidence of clefting.

"In some cases, cleft palate is caused by syndromes which also cause other problems. Stickler's Syndrome can cause cleft lip and palate, joint pain, and myopia. Loeys-Dietz syndrome can cause cleft palate or bifid uvula, hypertelorism, and aortic aneurysm. Cleft lip/palate may be present in Patau’s Syndrome (trisomy 13). Many clefts run in families, even though there does not seem to be any identifiable syndrome present." (Source - Wikipedia)

Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary defines "disease" as: "a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms."

To state that a cleft palate is not a disease is ludicrous.

Oh! What happened in this tread?

Even Concerned the Christian Now Liberated is trying to be "poetic"?

--------------------------------------------------

CCNL : With respect to "poetry",

Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe,
Until the koran is declawed, no one is safe,
Much Islamic muck and stench there be,
Ditto them all !!!!!!!!

Ahhhh......is that so? So bad, so called "poetry". It deserves worst - short, simple, stupider and stupidest.

in on faith strides a crossanist
who loves and posts his dubious lists,
the lists often and with too many twists
he can only defend with both fists

--------------------------------------------------

Islam has the slams
to wham the flim-flams,
no Muslims are clams
and much given to ram

--------------------------------------------------

Islam has the claws
against those with flaws,
with the Shariah as law
all flawed will fall

--------------------------------------------------

Brian: "It was a very good week for atheists"

Fate: "Atheists live in the real world. No spooks."

Ohhhh.....those asssertions. And now to torture and punish you here and now with terrible prose/verse combi as punishment for the here and now.

atheists denies they are rabid
always saying believers are stupid,
their reactions are always livid
and expecting responses to be flaccid

--------------------------------------------------

this is no place for the limpid
nor is this for the placid,
on points that are rancid
it makes the blog so fetid

--------------------------------------------------

atheists with all their human limits
on the supernatural they are timid,
they put forth objections so tepid
for believers who are avid and not vapid

--------------------------------------------------

believers have their holy books
with verses so beautiful they hook,
atheists say it is all by crooks
thus saying they are easily spooked

--------------------------------------------------

God is the Almigthy
invoking It makes us haughty,
with God on our side
it is our right to deride

--------------------------------------------------

All will go to hell
it is really quite swell,
who is to really tell
when we all finally fell.

So there - stupid, stupider and stupidest.

Cheers

"J"

Arminius-

Oh, my sides are hurting. My dad, a fine baritone, would have loved that song.

A cleft palate is a birth defect. It is not a disease.

Seems one who believes in evolution or creation would concur that it is caused by a genetic glitch, not a 'disease'...still, something that mankind, not God, has brought upon himself for whatever reason or whatever circumstance...

Mankinds gross misunderstanding of our role and Gods role in our affairs gives alot rope for finger pointing that doesnt solve anything. Only when God's intervention occurs, in the time He has allotted, will the answers to our ills come and we will truly see where we have erred as keepers of this planet.

The REAL speed, that is.

WOW- step away from this post and look at what happened!

Who was using my name, btw?

I assume it was the redneck web-slinger as he accused me of using his screen name while I was away from the blog.

Perhaps I will hire an Indian or Chinese blogger to fill in for me while away ;)

CHAGALL'S FALL OF ICARUS

He doesn't fall into the sea, but back
Towards Russia, a shtetl's chicken coop houses,
Crowds' clutching children who point and wave.
They've cleared a space for him among their donkeys,
A boy in shades of gray, of wood fire ash
Coughed from chimneys, with a weak spiked sun
Like a circle around a star of David,
Which a dove easily passes over.
He might be an angel except for his dark wings
Flicking off feathers as he floats a moment,
As he flies in the forever of falling
And of the painting. He might be an angel.
Except he's not, just a boy who's gone
Too far, maybe crossed oceans, forty days
And forty nights of typhus in steerage,
High fever and delusions, sodden resilience
Maybe to live in Hoboken, sweat out
A shoe factory then a Dutchman's farm,
Never come home. Only in his mind,
Does he revisit these antique relatives,
Colorful extensions of what he is
That let him rise through the world. And when
Their abandoned faces begin to shrivel
In memory like a picture thrown on a fire,
He still has his tall tales infectious as rumors
Of the old country, Yiddish he can't leave
Well enough alone, squawking at his kids.
But unable to hover above the rooftops, play
On a breeze like the Klezmer fiddlers,
Maybe he flies too close, burns up in the warmth
Of this childish levity and weeps. Wracked
At the end, usurped by the ground reaching up
As a hospital room's soft bed clothes, he's just
A man with an unfamiliar name. Now nothing
Remains of the old days except pictures
In books and paintings. In them, no one hears
The shrieks of a violin nor of a boy
As he plunges back towards his sketchy village,
A native son humbly doing as he was told,
Thrashing about the midair of exile, dying
Only in his dreams, only in the myth of leaving.

Dear What?

You just don't know your Bible.

Flat Earth: You might look in Daniel 4 where Danny has dream of a tree that grew so tall that the whole world could see it at the same time. How is that possible if the world is a sphere?

How about the verse in Matthew 4 where "the devil taketh him (Jesus) up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them." If your answer is, "that's just a metaphor for seeing everything. It has nothing to do with everything being on a flat earth.", then why did the devil have to elevate Jesus by taking him up into a mountain (and, an "exceedingly high mountain" at that) to gain a perspective of "all the kingdoms of the world?" Seems to me that if there's no element of elevating Jesus to improve his view that the devil could have just as easily taken Jesus into a subterranean cave to show him all thekingdoms of the earth.

Here's the deal, What? Back then, EVERYBODY used to think the world was flat, at least until the Greeks figured it out in 300BC. It only stands to reason that books THOUGHT UP BY AND WRITTEN BY MEN would postulate a flat Earth. That alone is proof that no god was around to inspire or guide their "holy" writings, because any omniscient god would KNOW that the flat earth idiocy would eventually be known to men, and within a few thousand years of the Bible being written. If god really existed, he might have given the Bible authors a few tidbits of supernaturally derived intelligence and let them in on the secret that the world he created was a sphere, in contradiction to what mere mortals believed.

It's simple when you think about it.

Hi, Wiccan!!!

Well met. Glad you are here, I have missed you and your compatriots.

If you think "Jesus Loves Me but He Can't Stand You" is funny, try "Drop Kick Me Jesus". I'm not kidding.

Arminius

What? quoted then wrote:

"'Diseases are not caused by god's judgment against a person.'

In essence, they are....mankind brings on 'Gods judgement', if you will, when we do not follow laws of quarantine, cleanliness and man lying with man...to name a few things."

In the case of leprosy in the Hawaiian Islands, the Biblically-inspired directive to quarantine victims actually may have led to an *increase* in cases and certainly to an increase in the victims' suffering. When the quarantine laws were enacted by the Kingdom of Hawaii, at the insistence of the Christian missionaries, many victims were hidden by their families and did not receive treatment. I would not be surprised if the same were not true for any disease that used involuntary quarantine as a treatment method. (The quarantine laws persisted in Hawaii up until 1969 despite the fact that it had been long before established that leprosy is an extremely difficult disease to contract.)

Also, the quarantine laws of the Bible dealing with leprosy were apparently unnecessarily applied to any number of unsightly, though otherwise mostly harmless, skin diseases such as eczema. As a tool in medicine, therefore, the Bible would appear to be about as useful as a dime store novel.

How has a newborn with a cleft palate offended god?

Hi Spiderman,

Thanks for directing me to that site. Listened, and it was so beautiful.

Catch you later.

Farnaz

S C Cromett, I just listened to "Jesus Loves Me but He Can't Stand You". Thank you, oh thank you. I'm laughing so hard I can barely type.

Merry Meet, Arminius. Hope all is well with you and yours.

Fate,

The point about education is moot. There is no statistical analysis of any kind, anywhere, which supports your theory. Granted, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how absurd it is.

As an aside, which person below do you believe is more likely to be more culturally literate?

A) Dave went to public high school and graduated from a public university. Dave grew up in a secular family and dismisses God as nothing more than a drug for the weak.

B) Aaron was a classmate of Dave's in high school and college. Aaron grew up in a Christian family and accepted Christ into his life shortly after graduating college.

By attending a public university, both men were taught and educated by predominantly liberal, left-leaning professors. Furthermore, the general news and information that both men read and hear is, again, from predominantly liberal organizations. However, Aaron leads a parallel life which sometimes offers him a different perspective. A life which sometimes makes sense of those things around him that evolutionary liberalism can't explain.

It's not surprising that more students who attend private schools go to college. They are, on the average, wealthier than those who attend public school and there is an extremely strong correlation between a parent's socio-economic class and achievent in higher education.

I'm skeptical about the stats from prison surveys on religion for two reasons:

1. Convicted felons are, on the whole, not the most truthful people.
2. Prisoners may claim to be more religious than they really are because they think they may receive more privileges if they are "born again."

On the other hand, it does make a good argument for the irrelevancy of claimed religious belief and moral behavior.

Anon says quite disingenuously:

"God will one day makes you see the error of your ways Mr Mark. I wouldnt want to be around to watch what happens to you when the rest of us go to Heaven."

Oh, come on! You Xians would LOVE to sit up in heaven and watch all of the non-Xians get their eternal comeuppance. It's one of the "retirement benefits" you relish the most. Wasn't it Aquinas who pointed out that special reward of being a Xian?

Spidey, anon or whoever you are: why not admit that you look forward to retribution against your perceived enemies? Your posts already reveal as much.

Brambleton,

I don't really see what private/religious schools has to do with my argument that the religious tend to be less educated while atheists tend to be more. Its not an absolute statement, just a trend. Also, I am the product of a religious school education, a very good one, and I'm an atheist.

"Im leaving coz people here are stupid idiots who insult me and try to be me. Why don't you just crucify me like you crucified my hero Jesus?

Me and Jesus hate you all."

Thanks for leaving.

Now I'm going to ahve to listen to the Austin Lounge Lizard's Jesus Loves Me but He Can't Stand You.

To anyone who wishes to look at the site where I got the prison percentages:

rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/4149

I just looked up the quotation I attributed to Mark Twain. He indeed did say it, but said that he got it from Disraeli.

Arminius

This prison statistic thing is a bit weird.

First, here are some prison numbers from the web, accumulated by an avowed atheist:
31.4% - Catholic
28% - Protestant
19.7% - None/Refused/Other
0.16% - Atheist

Next, let's deal with the claim that the % of atheists in America is 8-16%. What I have seen is that the % of non-believers is about 15%. Now then, how many of those claim to be atheists? You can't say they all do, else the prison % of atheists would be higher. Therefore, the % of non-believers in prison holds to the national average. Nobody, repeat, nobody has a lock on morality.

To go back to Mark Twain: "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics."

The percentage of atheists in the US, broadly speaking, is 8-16 %. There may be even more, since it takes some courage to out oneself as an atheist, even in an anonymous survey.
The percentage of atheists in prison is 0,21% in a survey back in the nineties.

This may not be very exact, but the atheists' percentage would have to be roughly 50 times higher to match the religious percentage, even granted a huge margin if error! Mary Cunningham, granted that such statistics may measure other variables as well, as every halfway educated person knows, the huge discrepamcy at least cannot in any way be used to bolster the asinine contention that you need religion to be moral. It very heavily points to the other side.

The causal analysis is thus:

Stupid and ignorant people are more likely to behave disfunctionally and are therefore more likely to end up in jail.

Stupid and ignorant people are more vulnerable to indoctrination and are therefore more likely to end up religious.

That's the main reason for the very high correlation between incarceration rates and religious belief.

But I will add that religious people are less moral than non-believers because they have a poorly developed conscience. Non-believers know that they must let their conscience be their guide. Religious people can abdicate morality and cherry pick whatever barbaric scripture justifies their immoral act.

The post about private school has to do with Catholic vs. public school systems, not about people. Besides, I guess that Catholics are underrepresented in jail, just like atheists. It's the Bible beaters that are the most rotten.

Once again, Speed123 is impersonating me. From now on I'll post in different ways, but you will know it's me if you are INTELLIGENT, and if you are in idiot then who cares?

Fate,

Your theory that religous people are stupid and uneducated because of some unsubtantiated polling question about a convicts faith is asinine.

Here is some information I took off the publicschoolreview.com website:

1) 40 percent of private schools required some form of community service for high school graduation, four times the rate for public schools (10 percent).

2) Private school students are more likely than public school students to complete a bachelor’s or advanced degree by their mid-20s.

3) Private school students generally perform higher than their public school counterparts on standardized achievement tests. Their average scores were above those of public school students on the 4th-grade reading test and on the 4th-, 8th-, and 12th-grade science and mathematics proficiency tests.

4) In a study of private schools in 1999-2000, seventy-nine percent of all private schools were found to have a religious affiliation.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

Brambleton wrote: "However, I would argue that Jesus does hold His disciples to a higher standard of morals than a non-Christian. Whether or not someone claiming to be a Christian follows Jesus' word is another story altogether."

True though remember that Jesus taught through example, and some examples were of non-hebrews and non followers (good samaritan). So Jesus saw enough good in the world to point them out as examples for his diciples. But today, some of those who say they follow Jesus say they are the only true examples of morality. As though non-christians cannot be moral, even though the bible has Jesus pointing them out as examples. Just more burying of things that do not make christians more moral than anyone.

Bud,

Thanks for your comments regarding the incarceration rates. I think the underlying problem here is the perception that you need to be Christian to have morals. That is obviously not true. However, I would argue that Jesus does hold His disciples to a higher standard of morals than a non-Christian. Whether or not someone claiming to be a Christian follows Jesus' word is another story altogether.

Read Mark Twain..

Not impressed..

uh, hes just a man...who also is part of the whole world decieved (Rev 12:9)

Not my words...the apostle John's

Do you know what that scripture even means?

No humans have gone to heaven after death...neither are there any demons turning humans on a spit below us. Twain/Clemmens was clueless and was not a scholar of scripture.

Regards

>>Even I, a believer, hold that much of the OT is myth. Some wise, some boring, some offensive, some beautiful, some ugly. But myth, nonetheless.

Mmmm...sounds like my life...or for that matter, any normal human beings life...some wise, some boring, some offensive, some beautiful, some ugly.

I guess we are all myths and therefore, dont really exist?

AB-SO-LUTE-LY UN-BE-LIEV-ABLE

This statement (>>) above is the epitome of why mankind cannot solve its own ills and has been trying to do it his own way since Eden. And sadly, this statment is by a 'believer'

Changes are on the way folks...coming soon to a generation near you.

Ay yi yi yi yi

Au revoir and regards.

MaryCunningham wrote: "Regardless of how well the sample is drawn the results are insignificant. Look, I could do an analysis of the admissions to hospital for broken arms and 'find' an overrepresentation of admissions who were born in late December. (This has actually been done). Then I could go trumpet that Capricorns are significantly more likely to break their arms than..(name any other sign). I'd look stupid. I'd be stupid."

Well, your conclusion would be stupid, but if the results were the same, year after year, then you have found some truth, though the cause remains unknown. One could hypothesise that children born in December begin walking a year later, in December, and are exposed to wintery conditions longer during the dangerous learning-to-walk phase. Or maybe not. But just because you cannot determine the reason for the data does not invalidate the data. The correlation exists. It is significant.

MaryCunningham wrote: "The 'finding' of religion's relation to prison admissions sounds suspiciously similar."

Yes, the data is significant! The cause is unknown. As I said before I believe its due to the religious being less educated. I'm willing to entertain other causes. But the data exists and cannot be tossed aside because you cannot come up with an explanation you can live with.

What?

Suggest you study the Mark Twain quote below.

Read it real slow, and think about it.

A very smart fella, Mr Twain. He studied the Bible too.

Mary Cunningham wrote:

"Without adjusting for age the results are worthless."

I fail to see why. One is trying to isolate a single variable, which is one's belief in God. Why should the age of the person make any difference as long as the same age ranges exist for both populations? You are purposely skewing the data by narrowing your population through age.

Mary Cunningham wrote:

"For example the age of a representative Latino cohort I'm almost certain will be significantly younger than the age of an atheist cohort,"

Really? Could you provide some evidence for that? I've never seen any statistic which shows that.

Mary Cunningham wrote:

"Latinos are also about 80% Catholic, but that doesn't mean Catholicism will land you in jail."

Again, I'm not saying that it does. I don't see one's religious tendencies as being a dominant factor in whether or not you land in prison. This is the point I am trying to make.

Mary Cunningham wrote:

"Regardless of how well the sample is drawn the results are insignificant."

Really? So any correlations on prison trends are useless?

Mary Cunningham wrote:

"Look, I could do an analysis of the admissions to hospital for broken arms and 'find' an overrepresentation of admissions who were born in late December. (This has actually been done). Then I could go trumpet that Capricorns are significantly more likely to break their arms than..(name any other sign). I'd look stupid. I'd be stupid."

Yes, I agree anyone who tried that would look stupid, but I don't see the analogy to the prison example. I personally would make the correlation that more broken arms occur in December due to icy conditions. But again, I think you are misunderstanding me. I am NOT using the data to say religious people are more crime prone than atheists. Just that one's religion probably does not play a major role in their decision to commit crime, which is part of one's moral makeup.

Whoa... did I just stumble into the WaPo's poetry jam by mistake?

Seriously... I defended Rev. Wright's comments in the past. No longer. I figured that his comments were being taken out of context. They were. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, Rev. Wright has turned this into an attack on the "black church" - or on himself. He's just another preacher who started out with good intentions, but got wrapped up in the sound of his own voice. It's not about him. Clearly, he holds views that Sen. Obama disagrees with, and vice versa. He's obviously not Obama's guru, or pulling his strings, or whatever people think about Obama. The father figure that Obama put on a pedestal has turned out to be more Al Sharpton than MLK.

It's good that the Senator distanced himself from Wright so vocally. Now, someone not associated with the Obama campaign needs to tell Wright to STFU and stop trying to extend his fifteen minutes of fame.

Bud, and Fate.

Great posts guys. I learned so much from your very sensible information. Of course the religious are just people and are not necessarily influenced to be 'good' by what they believe about gods and the hereafter. Two world wars in the 20th Century and two thousand years of wars everywhere show that religion does not necessarily produce peace loving people, or a peaceful environments.

To think that atheists must be 'bad' because they do not believe in a sky god makes no sense whatever.

Batman456. Excellent Twain quote. Truly excellent.

* Human beings didn't begin with the creation of Adam & Eve. We evolved from simpler life forms.

Yeah, and anything man creates is actually evolved from amoeba with no forethought or planning. Give me a break. You limit our intelligence grossly, let alone the creators intelligence. Like you can create things...by far be it from anyone to create you....unbelieveable. What a limited little world you live it. Sad.

* The Earth is not flat, nor is it the center of the universe, nor is it a two-dimensional circle (as stated in the Bible).

Where in the bible is that stated?

* There is no solid "firmament" sitting above the Earth.

Who said it was solid? Does the bible use the word solid? I see no use of solid in the KJV...nor does Websters include the word 'solid' in the description of firmament.

* The mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds, neither does it grow into a tree.

Ok..one of the smallest...whatever your point intends..who even knows.

* Bats are not birds, they're mammals.

Again, thank you, professor, for that correction of a mistake in birds/bats that scores or thousands make...whatever importance that is to bring up.

* Stars are not little points of light that are attached to "the firmament," neither do they have the capability to fall to Earth.

Uh, asteroids, comets, and the like, uh, used to be stars.....and, uh, could fall to earth possibly...duh

* Diseases are not caused by god's judgment against a person.

In essence, they are....mankind brings on 'Gods judgement', if you will, when we do not follow laws of quarantine, cleanliness and man lying with man...to name a few things.

* You don't think with your heart, but with your brain.

Most everyoen knows that heart equates with the spirit in man...some hold to Gods spirit to lead their spirit...others hold to....whatever.

One could go on, but I think you catch my drift.

Uh, no I dont.

:)

:? /

MaryCunningham wrote: "You need to look at the age specific prison rates. The younger the average age of a particular cohort (and I would think Christians who tend to have more children will have a lower av. age than atheists who tend to have far fewer) the more likely to inhabit prisons. Also the US is almost 75% Christian! That is so large a proportion it makes any comparison almost meaningless."

If what you say is true then atheists will disapear in a few generations. I have not seen any statistics pointing to religion leading to larger families. I'm not saying you don't have a point, just that your point is not specific enough to refute the claim, that christians go to jail more than atheists.

Mary also wrote: "Finally: correllation does not signify causation. Being Christian does not *cause* one to become a jailbird, just a being an atheist does not *cause* one to be a bus driver. There are other factors at work (see above). It's called multifactor analysis."

I agree. My own causal theory is that the religious tend to be less educated than the atheists, and the less educated end up in situations where crime is more prevalent. So again I agree with your notion that other factors are at work, but the end result is the same, atheists are less represented in prison, meaning they must commit less crime, for some reason. So even if other factors are at work I think we could agree based on the prison populations that christians are not less likely to commit crime than atheists. So why should someone want to be a christian to get away from crime? If anything I would think getting a better education and thus better job prospects would be a better way to stay out of prison than just deciding to bring Jesus into your life (take that Chuck Colson). And I think this also shows that being an atheist does not make someone less of a good person just as the good samaritan, who was not hebrew or a follower of Jesus, was an exemplary good person in the eyes of Jesus.

BTW, what do people on this blog think about the good samaritan? Is he in heaven? Evangelicals and some others say he is not since he was not a christian. In their eyes no matter how good you are you must accept Jesus to get into heaven. But we never hear about the good samaritan burning in hell from these people for some reason (bad PR is my guess). It, like so much of the bible, is just left aside so it does not interfere with their man made "truth".

MaryCunningham wrote:

"Finally: correllation does not signify causation. Being Christian does not *cause* one to become a jailbird, just a being an atheist does not *cause* one to be a bus driver. There are other factors at work (see above). It's called multifactor analysis."

This is technically true, but correlations are often used to display trends and associations. If the hypothesis by many religious folks (that you can't have a moral system with belief in a God) is indeed true, one would expect to see a much higher proportion of non-believers in prison compared to Christians. The fact that the numbers actually show the reverse is strong evidence that belief in a God has little to do with one's morality. As you correctly state, there are probably other factors which dominate whether one commits a crime and ends up in prison or not.

Again, I don't think athiests are using these data to say that Christians are less moral or worse than atheists. That is, they are not using it as data to attack the religious. They use it mainly to defend themselves *against* claims and attacks that it is impossible to have morals without belief in a deity. This is a very prevalant thinking amongst conservative Christians.

I like what Mark Twain wrote about the Bible...

• The Christian's Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes.... The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession -- and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry.... There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.

Mark Twain. "The Thoughts of Mark Twain".

Anonymous (Spidey? Speedy? Someone else?),

You said to Mr Mark:
First how can the Bible be incorrect if IT IS THE Word OF GOD?

If Mr Mark does not accept the existence of God, then how can he accept the bible as entirely true? Your logic is circular.

Even I, a believer, hold that much of the OT is myth. Some wise, some boring, some offensive, some beautiful, some ugly. But myth, nonetheless.

Bud,

Without adjusting for age the results are worthless. For example the age of a representative Latino cohort I'm almost certain will be significantly younger than the age of an atheist cohort, and Latinos will also be overrepresented in the prison population, for a number of factors, but age is probably the most significant. American Latinos are also about 80% Catholic, but that doesn't mean Catholicism will land you in jail.

Regardless of how well the sample is drawn the results are insignificant. Look, I could do an analysis of the admissions to hospital for broken arms and 'find' an overrepresentation of admissions who were born in late December. (This has actually been done). Then I could go trumpet that Capricorns are significantly more likely to break their arms than..(name any other sign). I'd look stupid. I'd be stupid.

The 'finding' of religion's relation to prison admissions sounds suspiciously similar.

It's insignificant.

Hi Brambleton:

The accuracy of a poll depends more on the sample size than the percentage of overall population surveyed. For example, political polls frequently have as few as 1000 respondants, so 74,731 should be more than a sufficient size. It also depends on how representative the sampling is of the population at large, which is often the biggest problem with any given poll. Like any statistic, it can be made to lie or distort the real truth. I don't necessarily have a high confidence in that one particular poll, but the fact that several polls I have seen show more or less the same trend is compelling evidence. My point was not to show that Christians are any "worse" than non-believers. I was trying simply to show that a moral system is possible without the need for a religious foundation. Another commonly cited statistic is divorce rate, which shows a similar trend:

Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

I am truly surprised that you have not seen or encountered the "we're better than you because we believe in God" crowd. You don't get out much maybe? (I'm joking.) Seriously, if you want to see the attitude, try the religious blogs and discussions. A good place to start would be the religious and science forums at amazon com. I have participated in these frequently, so I can attest firsthand to the presence of the attitude.

>>Anonymous wrote:
The Bible is a book of myth and fairy tales.
The old testament is full of obscenities and primitive superstition. The new testament is not much better.
To believe it to be a book of knowledge, one would have to be either indoctrinated or illiterate. Or both.
It is an interesting book, historically speaking, but contains no facts. Facts weren't important to those who compiled it. Myth mattered more.

The old testament is a chronolgy of mankind doing things his own way from the get-go. Most of the realm of humanity do not have a clue as to the intent of scripture. Not only does it declare in many places how we should be, it also protrays how we have decided on our own to be...and that continues to this very day.

To say it contains no facts is a total falsehood. Much, if not all, of biblical scripture can be supported by many writings of history.

Also, Susan Jacoby commented:

>> I can't offer a better example of the unfitness of religion to serve as a guide to public policy.

Again, if one really comprehends the bible correctly....mankinds 'religions' were in error from the get-go...except for a very few thru the millenia that God purposed to be so. Its all there. Most just overlook it or fail to see it. The fallacy of any religion is due to man, not God. But that will be corrected. Of that, all can be sure...atheist or believer. Thats the beauty of scripture...it covers from the Alpha to the Omega...how God intended life for mankind, how mankind decided to live his own way....the ups and downs of that decision...and how it will be made right again...for good.

Mr Mark;

You dont impress me with your 'reading' of biblical passages. Wrong wrong wrong.

First how can the Bible be incorrect if IT IS THE Word OF GOD?
You are just skimmimg the surface and not delving in to the DEEPER TRUTHS that lie beneath the words.
In other words you are reading it SUPERFICIALLY and missing the truth and beauty of His words. the same mistakes that idiots make time and time again.

God will one day makes you see the error of your ways Mr Mark. I wouldnt want to be around to watch what happens to you when the rest of us go to Heaven.

Folks, this has been one of the best blogs! Before I go, I would make it clear that to the best of my knowledge I am actually myself, although when I had my DNA tested I found out I was not really myself but my second cousin in Sligo. (I sent the test back as I do not like her very much and told them to correct it.)

Note on the stats:

Fate and speedy spider,

You need to look at the age specific prison rates. The younger the average age of a particular cohort (and I would think Christians who tend to have more children will have a lower av. age than atheists who tend to have far fewer) the more likely to inhabit prisons. Also the US is almost 75% Christian! That is so large a proportion it makes any comparison almost meaningless.

Finally: correllation does not signify causation. Being Christian does not *cause* one to become a jailbird, just a being an atheist does not *cause* one to be a bus driver. There are other factors at work (see above). It's called multifactor analysis.

God is a relic of our misguided efforts to magnify our own importance.

The sooner we are rid of him, the better.

I’m not holding my breath that pointy-hatted priests who parade around making idiotic pronoucements are going to falsify their own religion anytime soon. They’ve got too much invested in the scam.

I’m very glad (ecstatic actually!) that Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens and others are showing us the way beyond the mass idiocy we have engaged in for two thousand years.

It’s about time.

spiderman2 or someone using his name wrote: "The Bible is a book of knowledge. Before you can claim to have a right to understand Christianity, start by explaining this verse Bible first. Interpret it. --- "Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent."

Let me see ... The Philistines will be destroyed even though the bad leader has died. The new leader, Hezekiah (cockatrice), will be worse than Uzziah (serpents root) had been. So don't rejoice because the whole land will be ruined from war (fiery serpent). This is part of Isasah 14 where God creates Zion for the Hebrew to escape from the coming wars that will destroy the Philistines.

Now, before you claim to understand science, please explain any of the following:
A)How does the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle allows the sun to shine?
B)What is a cockatice, where did the origin of the term come from, and does it exist or was it ever possible it existed?
C)What would be required to physically change water into wine and what would happen to the volume as the water changed to wine?

And while we're at it, let me also ask you to interpret a biblical quote:

"And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind; two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. Thus did Noah according to all that God commanded him, so did he."

I wrote:

"When it comes to the way the natural world ACTUALLY operates, he (ie: the Biblical god) hasn't a clue, at least if we're to take his "scientific explanations" of things at face value."

spiderman2 replied:

"By the way, Mr. Mark, what is it that you know about the Bible to say that a fifth grader knows more than the Intelligence behind the prophecies?"

I don't know which spidey this is, but he's engaging in a childish debating ploy that's all too common among the faithful.

My post opined that the Biblical god is an idiot. I base that assessment on how the Biblical god/Jesus' pronouncements on how the *natural world* operates are invariably ignorant regurgitations of the myths of ancient times.

To counter my observation - which limited itself to the natural world - spidey throws in a red herring about "the intelligence behind the prophecies."

What do prophecies have to do with the natural world? Set aside the facts that none of the OT prophecies can be proven to have been fulfilled in the OT, and the the NT "fulfillment" of OT prophecy is always a retro fit authored to "match" some OT prophecy...and, set aside the fact that even Jesus doesn't always get the OT prophecy right when its quoted in the NT...AND, set aside the fact that some OT "prophecies" weren't intended as prophecies to begin with (ref: Isaiah, "virgin birth"), and I don't think that your bringing up prophecies helps your cause in arguing that the god of the Bible displayed any intelligence in describing the natural world.

So, back to the natural world and the questions at hand: what would a present day 5th grader know about the natural world that seems to have escaped the "intelligence" of Yahweh/Jesus? For starters:

* Human beings didn't begin with the creation of Adam & Eve. We evolved from simpler life forms.

* The Earth is not flat, nor is it the center of the universe, nor is it a two-dimensional circle (as stated in the Bible).

* There is no solid "firmament" sitting above the Earth.

* The mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds, neither does it grow into a tree.

* Bats are not birds, they're mammals.

* Stars are not little points of light that are attached to "the firmament," neither do they have the capability to fall to Earth.

* Diseases are not caused by god's judgment against a person.

* You don't think with your heart, but with your brain.

One could go on, but I think you catch my drift.

:)

I'm real tired of people pretending to be me. I think I'll stop posting here.

Spiderman2 wrote:
"Come on now Speed123. I know it's you pretending to be me, but the poster to Bud was the real me"

OK, you guys have me really confused now (lol). Maybe the WP should post the connecting socket's IP address with each post? That would give us a signature along with the user name. What say you WP?

The Anonymous who posted the drivel below is not the Anonymous who I am. I am the smart one who makes intelligent comments, not the dumb one who pretends to be me.

Bud,

I must admit that I am not familiar with the incarceration rate for christians vs. non-christians. However, I did visit the site provided by Fate and was a little confused. The number of documented responses was 74,731 - but the Department of Justice indicates that the total U.S. prison population is 2,258,983 as of 12/31/06. I'm no math major, but are you telling me that the sample size used was just 3% of the entire population?

Additionally, I'm not sure where the "Christians are better" language is coming from. True, Jesus holds His