"I Love This Poor Earth, For I Have Not Seen Another"

Hello Everybody,

I was at the computer this morning when I heard what I thought was a mother bird squawking in distress at her baby's being in danger. I assumed that one of our Maine Coon Cats was worrying the bird outdoors.

The sound kept on going so I got up to go outside and check on it. Instead, in the middle of our living room, I found Archie [Archibald] playing with a small mole he'd brought in from outside.
The mole, in great distress, was making the most pitiable birdlike chirping sounds.

Usually when we catch up with Archie or Belle (Mehitabel) and a mole, the mole is either dead or so far gone that it seems kinder to let them finish him off.

I picked up the mole in a paper towel, took him outside and gently lowered him into a patch of tall grass. To my surprise he scurried away, seeming healthy. Score one for the beneficent [or good luck] forces of the Universe.

I tell this story in the context of the recent posts above. It confirms me in my belief that, if there is a god, S/he bears a strong resemblance to Yahweh [the "Ignorant Demiurge" of the Cathers], the stupid, sadistic, lesser diety who mistakenly thought he was the Godhead, and who created the material universe with all its horrors and cruelties.

This morning's events also confirm for me the truth and wisdom of the historical Buddha, Shakyamuni. Suffering is inherent in our existence. Compassion is our way out.

Animals and humans have the same essential nature and should be shown the same compassion equally - something the Abrahamic-Yahweh religions haven't a clue about.

Ok then. I want mine back in unmarked bills.
Preferably 20's. Dude's gotta get some lapdances every now and then.

Russell,

Summarizing the important passages:

The Good Words/Passages were articulated via reason and common sense by the ancients. These Words of Wisdom were simply repeated with each major race and religion. Unfortunately the Words were attributed to embellished men (e.g. Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Joe Smith) in most cases as a means of profiteering as noted by the contemporary billions of dollars owned and controlled by the Mormon, Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions. It is time to get our money back!!!!!

Concerned:

How very true. Yet how does Islam corrispond to the question at hand? Why fault the whole religion due some bad writing? Can't the same be said for Christianity? I mean, you have read the Bible, yes? That book is total B.S..

Russell,

Better to iron out the foundation flaws on a blog than in another world war.

And the foundation flaws concern all religions, not just Islam.

Concerned:

Dude, seriously, drop the Islam talk. It is getting ridiculous.

Nothin but love for ya Jihadist. :)

Ahh, The Jihadist fails again in addressing the flaws of Islam. Brainwashed is she?? Probably but lets try one more time. Jihadist please address the following synopsis of your religion:

Mohammed was an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/"pwtfft" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these crazy Muslims/Islamics?? Iran, the Third Axis of Evil who the Jihadist never criticizes. Ditto for the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia. Could it be possible The Jihadist is an Iranian secret agent:))))

Jihadist:

Thank you. I never get flustered.

Looking In:

I would love to hear some insight. Got anything useful to add to the conversation?
Be prepared...........not very original. And the Boy Scouts? Grown men leading around young boys out in the woods wearing short short? Yea, not something to look up to..unless you are a Catholic priest......or Micheal Jackson.

Mark in Texas,

You make of Nature the enemy. Blood dripping from talons? I have watched a hawk swoop down and take one of my half grown chicks, as well as an owl, in the middle of the day, take a full grown hen...life and death.

So what God created a war? Man seems to translate the words of the Gods for their own power and greed. No God has writ the day and method of death on the wall of the sky. That was man...it is not the man that reflects the god...but the god that reflects man.

Do not blame the Gods for death... for without death would not come peace at the end of illness and age. That is the gift of nature and nature's gods.

Why do some who cry god wish for peace and love, while others crying for the same god see hell and damnation...what is in their souls? What mirror do they hold up?

Do not blame the gods...blame the core darkness of men that the gods are the exuse of.

terra

Jihadist, Norrie Hoyt, Islamist, Russell D., etc.

A guest speaker by the name of Irshad Manji wrote a post called Islam Needs an Age of Reason. She raises some very interesting points and I expected to see you post on the thread. Check it out.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2007/08/

On a similar vein is an amazingly good essay on the history of political theology and secularism, both in the west (Christianity and Judaism) and in Islam. The article speaks to the difficulty in getting Islam and the west to understand each other, something that Jihadist has touched upon in some of her posts. The essay offers some true insights. Below is the web address for this New York Times article by Mark Lilla, a professor of the humanities at Columbia University. The essay is adapted from his book “The Stillborn God: Religion, Politics and the Modern West,”.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/magazine/19Religion-t.html?em&ex=1187755200&en=f4382892905704f6&ei=5087%0A

"As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport." (Shakespeare's King Lear, Act IV, scene 1)

That pretty much sums up Nature Red in Tooth and Claw. However, nature is also beautiful too, and even cooperative in appearance. Sometimes nature is both full of beauty and horror simultaneously (e.g. tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, cheetahs chasing gazelles).

opps, forgot to add my name to "Where But Not Nature Red in Tooth and Claw."

ah well...

Where not Nature 'Red in tooth and claw' I'd be one to find solace in a holy, changing text of an ever-changing, transcendent being.

Alas...the world is all around me.

It drips blood from every talon, it stinks with killing which makes 'life' possible. What sort of god would create such an evil thing?

The wars of the gods, and the gods of the wars all lay down together in this red, and unholy river. They, baptized, self-extinguish a right to speak delusion as truth.

The words of men are all we have. Though often caught in emboldened lie, they still say more than all the gods put together.

The gods all lie. Humanity speaks. The gods will kill a man or woman for naught, but man, largely needs a god to kill.

Victoria and Norrie Hoyt:)

Always, always a pleasure to see you both.

Victoria
Assalam mualaikum

That Emily Dickinson poem you quoted is actually the first one I read by her. It truly charmed me and I've been an Emily Dickinson fan since.

I read somewhere that they are remaking "The Prisoner" series in the US, and AMC may be showing the original British series next year. Could be wrong on that.

I have "The Prisoner" whole series on DVD. And Monty Phyton's Flying Circus, and French and Saunders, and Yes, Minister, and Yes Prime Minister, and Absolute Fabulous. Such a weakness for British comedy series.

Norrie Hoyt :)

Thank you for that origin on Christianity. I have heard rumours of it, but, alas, found no documents, not even a peek of the rumoured Atlantis Scrolls regarding God's college days. According to various conspiracy theorists, the Vatican suppress this Atlantis Scrolls from public knowledge and they have them deep in the bowels of the Vatican's library. They are concerned that it would undermine the whole Christian faith.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Ah...where we interact, the "pretty wingie flying thingies" (a.k.a. angels) fear to thread. Do you want to a demon or a devil here? I'm comfortable with being either in engaging in satanic prose, in invoking fire and brimstone, thunder and lighting with you.

Still making speculative and borderline libelous/slanderous statements about me rather than addressing your own flawed approach in pointing out real, imagined and speculative flaws?

Tell you what. That I don't mind. But I do really mind that you should pull anyone in On Faith just for talking with me, and to irrationally thrash them. Look back in all your posts re me that you have with Henry James, Norrie Hoyt, A Hermit. What a flawed fearful mind speaking on flaws.

Atheists are better. They are not hypocrites. They are intellectually honest. They don't pretend to reform beliefs. They don't pretend to point out all beliefs are flawed but is really promoting a new, revised, updated version of belief particular to a church or faith.

As the question is about scriptures or literary passages etc, let me quote a Sura from the Qur'an just for you, and for you to take it any which way you want and can:

even if the ocean were ink
for writing the words of my Lord
it would run dry
before the words of my Lord were exhausted
even if We were to add another ocean to it

....and we will continue to keep thinking, keep talking, keep wondering, keep seeking, keep losing, keep finding God/s in our own ways.

Thank you and best regards

J

Where not Nature 'Red in tooth and claw' I'd be one to find solace in a holy, changing text of an ever changing transcendent being.

Alas...the world is all around me.

It drips blood from every talon, it stinks with killing which makes 'life' possible. What sort of god would create such an evil thing?

The wars of the gods, and the gods of the wars all lay down together in this red, and unholy river. They, baptized, self-extinguish a right to speak delusion as truth.

The words of men are all we have. Though often caught in emboldened lie, they still say more than the gods.

The gods all lie. Humanity speaks what is. The gods will kill a man or woman for naught, but man, needs a god to kill.

The passage in scripture that is referred to as The Lord's Prayer and also the Our Father: Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven, give us this day our daily Bread, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from the evil one. OUR FATHER, as in the Father of the entire human race considering that not only did He create everyone but also everything. WHO ART IN HEAVEN, not only is He in Heaven but He is also putting the finishing touches on the Heavenly Jerusalem not to be confused with the New Jerusalem which is going to go down the tubes just like the Old Jerusalem only more so. HALLOWED BE THY NAME, actually God is Pure Love but from so many of the posts that call themselves christians, you would never know. THY KINGDOM COME, God's Kingdom which will be a Kingdom of Pure Love and it is for all of His children which is ALL OF HUMANITY. THY WILL BE DONE, Like it says in many places in the bible, it is God's Will that ALL BE SAVED, also if all that someone calling themself a christian, cares about is going to the "good place" , how christian is that, considering that on the cross Jesus said, "Father forgive them", there is not an asterick after them, them means ALL OF HUMANITY, we have all done wrong at least I have. ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, as it says even the forces of evil, satan and his cohorts, are working toward the Will of God even if inadvertantly, besides being a liar and a thief, the deceiver is also a loser. GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD, this refers not only to that which sustains us physically but also the Eucharist which is the BREAD OF LIFE. FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US, this is a divine equation, pure and simple, Jesus told us as much. AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, satan is the tempter and like it says when we fall which we all seem to do at times at least I have we can ask for forgiveness, we can go directly to God for forgiveness, the curtain in front of the Holy of Holies has been torn in two, yes the one that so many people are trying to sew back together. BUT DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE, yes satan and his cohorts are real and in God's Plan, All of Humanity will be delivered from all evil that is why we are to be willing and active participants in God's Plan whatever we may have been called or chosen to do. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Curious,

Please cite the actual references and then we can talk about historical authencity. Keep in mind for example that Timothy's Epistle was, by contemporary NT analyses, not written by Paul.

CCNL wrote:

"John 3: 16-18 is a single attestation i.e. only found once in scripture leading to the conclusion that this passage is an embellishment added to impress the locals."

Are you kidding me? You really need to check this stuff out for yourself instead of taking someone else's word for it. John 3:16-18 is NOT the only place where this is found. You should go ahead and read the rest of John, as well as Acts, 1 Timothy, and 1 John. For starters.

"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should have everlasting life."

John 3: 16-18 is a single attestation i.e. only found once in scripture leading to the conclusion that this passage is an embellishment added to impress the locals. -. Jesus to Nicodemus: (1) John 3:11-21. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/350_Jesus_to_Nicodemus

Even Father Raymond Brown, the Catholic NT guru, found its historic accuracy troubling.

Russell wrote:

"Quoting the Bible is all good fun, but at most pointless. The best philosophies for life come from the people around you and the people that came before you. Look around and learn."

I have to disagree with you there. Even if you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God, you have to admit that it is full of great advice and philosophies from people who have lived long, full lives who came before us. You cannot deny that there are many great wisdoms to live by in the Bible.

And to counter your quote of:
"A person who is ready for trouble is more dangerous than a man who is looking for it", I offer you the Scout Motto - "Be Prepared".

Jihadist,

I know that you are a serious student of religion. However, because of your own religious upbringing you may not be fully versed in the true origin of Christianity.

Here's the full, true, and complete account:

**************************************************

"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should have everlasting life."

**************************************************

God was at the University of Atlantis in 18,000 B.C., taking a course in logic and reasoning.

He said: "Professor, I know that I acted cruelly when I created this world where every being suffers. Suffering is indeed the central, inescapable motif of this world-realm I made."

However, I have thought carefully, deeply, and rationally and logically, and I have come up with a plan to set things to right.

I will create a people called the Jews. I will conceive a Son of Mine, who will be brought to birth among this people.

When he reaches maturity, I will arrange that he shall be horribly tortured and cruelly done to death by a cruel people I shall also create, called Romans.

After His death, I shall have it put about that his excruciating suffering means that humans thereafter shall be freed from suffering if they do exactly what I command they should do and believe.

My commands shall be communicated to all people through a new organization, to be known as "The Religion of the Tormented Jew", which shall be nicknamed "Christianity" after my dead Son.

My plan is reasoned, reasonable, and logical, is it not, Professor?

The Professor replied, "God, you've certainly done enough work in this class that I won't flunk you out. Just don't ask for a recommendation for graduate school."

Atlaneans were long-lived, so, to avoid futher comment from his Professor, God waited 16,000 years, until after the Professor had died, to put his plan into effect.

**************************************************

Regards.

Ahh, again and again The Jihadist again fails the Rule of Five, "First Find and then Fix the Flaws in the Foundations" of religion. In her "young" eyes she unfortunately continues to believe in one of the major flaws of many religions, i.e. the belief in "pwtffts" (required in the Islamic/Muslim religion i.e. Mo's Gabe visitations/apparitions/hallucinations). But then again The Jihadist either is concerned for her safety or simply does not have the time to study the history of her religion being occupied most of her day with investing Islamic/Muslim oil/blood/terror profits.

did someone mention emily?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm nobody! Who are you?
Are you nobody, too?
Then there's a pair of us - don't tell!
They'd banish us, you know!

How dreary to be somebody!
How public like a frog
To tell one's name the livelong day
To an admiring bog!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

salaams jihadist- well- ive never been an atheist but im afraid ive read your list and then some- and one of my alltime favoritest shows in the world is the prisoner-

i actually had the series on vcr tape (i know, im old) and showed it to anyone who would watch any chance i got...

speaking of monty python, i even have a kitten right now named eric the cat not to be confused with eric the fish...
peace y'all

.....to all decent, reasonable, rational and civil posters in On Faith, skip this post that I am putting out in fun to the Pussycat in a schoolyard brawl to make those on the sidelines retch.

Here kitty kitty kitty Concy
Here kitty kity kitty Christy
Here kitty kitty kitty Libby

or really..............

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated :)

So, it is really about your own "theology" and "dogmas" is it not? Subsumed by you in couching it all in those other issues related to flaws and failures of men instead of the fundamental flaws of churchmen that you are scrambling to untangle.

Always, always, always on cue and as predicted -"wishy wash". Oh, forever predictable. What's the matter? Still can't comfortably reconconcile your personal faith and beliefs with the here and now, what the NT/Jesus Seminar scholars came up with, and the fact many Christians not seeing it your way?

Come on old man. Do give more than a perfunctory response to the weekly questions posed by WaPo before going into your same old same old posts in every thread every week.

Come on old man. I know the Bible, the Catholic Church better than you know the Qur'an, Islam and Muslims.

Come on old man. Don't ever thrash any other posters who, out of decency and civility, ask you to be so with me. I've seen you thrash Henry James, A Hermit, Maurie Beck, Norrie Hoyt and now David here.

Come on old man. What are you really afraid of? Even when they ask you to be nicer to Muslims and me, you sledgehammered them, acting as if they are now traitors to the US and Christianity.

Come on old man. The era of the church inquisitions are over. So should formal and informal "excommunications" of anyone who don't agree with your beliefs or you.

Come on old man. What is with you thinking aloud in another post to ask WaPo to ban posts from Muslims? Advocating freedom of belief and expression and yet calling for censorship and control?

Come on old man. Want to talk on terrorism, Mid-East politics, Iran, Afghanistan and now Pakistan whom Barack Obama suggested be bombed too? Go to Slate. And continue to get news and info from Fox TV, and read "think" pieces coming out from fellows ensconced at the American Enterprise Institute etc. only.

Come on old man. You can always suggest to WaPo on questions to be posed - from terrorism to Iran to pedophiles.

I look forward you going berserk on me again and again and again and again.......

.....and to think that my mere posts have the power to do that to you. God be praised.

I'm off baiting and fishing for today. Oh, pardon me - off cat-stroking for today. Some cats need lots of attention it seems.. Prrrrrrrrr........

Regards
J :) :) :)

Ahh, The Jihadist as usual continues the Islamic/Muslim "wishy wash" by failing to address the illiteracy and hallucinations of Big Mo, the founder of the Islamic/Muslim religion. Nor does she address his embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingy flying talking fictional thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics with most of this misery being funded by the third Axis of Evil aka Iran and also the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia. Come on Jihadist, what exactly do you think about Iran's support of terrorism.

But note how she continues to mention the flaws of other religions as others to include myself have pointed out many times. We can do this however without fear of Islamic/Muslim death threats, which is possibly why The Jihadist fails to deal with the flaws in her Islamic/Muslim beliefs. In the past, we have even offered a 10 point program she can use to correct the flaws but again she refuses to come to terms with the reality of history.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated

I just read your post to David and Terra. Very confusing. I had hoped a man over 60 years old with a PhD would be more........ (fill in the blanks)

As I am a little bored, and there are some questions re your post, and I am in the mood for random shots, and looking for your Cyberspace spittle ................:)

"Pretty wingie talking flying fictional thingie" now a terrorist? How on earth is Homeland Security ever going to get them as they are mythical creatures as you stated? By God! They can't even get mortals who are actual terrorists, judging by some lawsuits of hauling in the wrong ones by, err, they way they look.

You asserted your campaign of religious flaw recognition starts with first find the flaws, then fix the foundations. Ah, of course. For whom and why? You never said, but obviously in promoting Crossanized Christianity as the best product in the marketplace of beliefs/faith. Nothing wrong with that, except Martin Luther also said the Catholic Church was flawed when he started the Reformation or fundamentalist Christian beliefs. Martin Luther can also be seen as a sort of a Salafist/Wahhabi who sought to purify his faith to its basics.

As for asking other religions to look at their own flaws, well, let me just get one basic, constant and stubborn flaw of yours corrected first on Islam and Muslims. Other Muslims posters and I have, to no avail, stated that we are not "Islamics", but Muslims, but there seems to be some flaw in a particular brain not to register that, and only just to deliberately taunt in a shoolyardish way.

As for Jesus, you stated, again, and again, Jesus "possibly" suffer from hallucinations. "Possibly" is not good enough for believers who would see that in itself as a "flaw" of allegations and assumptions. We will have to find Jesus's body, have tests done to determine that.

As for the analyses of Jesus life by contemporary NT scholars, lay Christians themselves will decide. Even a Muslim like me knows that the NT/Jesus Seminar use a voting system by colour in determining a consensus on the scholarship of research and belief on Jesus. Faith and belief is not by a voting system for believers. In analyzing Jesus's life, how will that ever change Christians' personal faith and beliefs?

And what exactly do you mean when you said Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, are founders of "Christian-based religions?" Is this the Catholic in you coming out never mind your own self-designation as a "Crossanized Christian" and/or "Catholic of Reality?" Are you saying that you are in fact, addressing the "flaws" of the Catholic Church, but it is still the one true church, and others are wounded and/or "Christian-based relgion"?

And you talk about the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions). Did I not see your explaining to another poster before on baptism and salvation? - An updated and revised version as per current in Catholic theological schools?

Tell you what, close down all the theological schools engaged in pretzel logic to come up with new and revised theological reasonings, to justify clerical roles and functions, to perpetuate church hierachies requiring support funding from believers and tax exemptions from states.

If all theological schools were closed, there will still be believers. They have the Bible, they have the Torah, they have the Qu'ran. Who needs imams, priests, rabbis except in times of weddings, births and deaths fundamentally? Oh, perhaps for bingo then.

Belief in God/s is really simple. Either you do or your don't. Either you have faith or you don't. No religious entities' accessorising on beliefs really needed. No intermediaries really needed between man and God on faith and belief. Is that why some, many would never recant their beliefs even when burned at the stakes or thrown to the lions?

And why in Buddhism, without belief in a supreme diety, are the teachings of Buddha formalised and elaborated almost religiously? The Theravada and Mahayana Buddhist monks do come out with elaborate reasons on meditation and Enlightenment when they have nothing to do but sit around and start to justify theirs and fellow Buddhists' existence.

The atheists resent the statement, "there are no atheists in foxholes". Rightly so. For believers, it often true that there is no priest, no rabbi, no imam in the foxholes with you. Only you, God and no one else in your darkest moments, most fearful moments, most uncertain moments - the moment where fear becomes courage, or a loss of will.

I look forward to you, predictably, hurling back to me "Islamic wishy wash" :):):) Belief is not just an intellectual exercise, an archeological/historical research and scholarship, or undertaking of religious rites. Belief and faith is .....................?(I supppose you don't).

Regards
J :)

Hello, hello. No weekend off somewhere?

Godfrey

Thanks again for correcting me. I was wrong in assuming "Lot's Wife" by Richard Wilbur was a novel and different from Anna Akhmatova's poem.

Islamist

I love Arthur C Clarke's "The Star" very much too. Clarke's the best sci-fi writer, no? With different flavours and tones, especially in his short stories. Yes, you deserve my harsh tone.

Daniel

I am sick of cliches from anyone - believers or not. Some atheists should not be exempted from their own sweeping cliches and generalisations about believers. Viejita Del Oeste, Arminius, Wiccan, Terra Gazelle et al. and yourself are believers who don't deserve that.

Arminius, in a pique in another thread against some atheists, comes up with a new term "Jihadist sceptics". What? LOL.

Ah, but Prof. Arroyo, an On Faith panelist, also came up with "militant atheists" and "politiburo atheists" which irritate atheists too.

As we already have spiritual atheists, it is only a matter of time before we come out with - proletariat humanists?

I never think I am better than atheists or people of any other faiths. I do learn a lot from other believers like those I mentioned, as well as atheists/agnostics/freethinkers like Maurie Beck, Norrie Hoyt, E Favorite, Godfrey. These atheists seems more open to communicating with believers than some believers are of other believers, except to tell them they are going to hell.

My previous post was really a satire of some of atheists' basic contentions on believers, which they repeated ceaselessly, as put forth in the terrible doggerel.

In the On Faith threads, some atheists put the same old same old. I do seriously wonder from the posts of some whether we are also shaped by what we like to read, or what we are determine what we read and like to read.

I would be the first to admit that the experiece of reading and looking beyond the Suras of the Qur'an - in turns poetic, elliptical, allusive, mystical, spiritual, blunt, ruthless, bamboozling, do make me appreciate poetry.

When it comes to writers or artists, I am not truly into whether they are atheists or otherwise. I like the works of Flannery O'Connor too, and some of her novels is deeply informed and infused by her Catholic faith. I may miss the whole of what she meant because I'm not Catholic, but what she wrote as a slice of the human experience from a particular perspective, time, place and culture is eye-opening and can be found their parallels in my own society.

I love Emily Dickinson for precisely the reasons you stated too. At first reading, her poetry looks simple, but every time you reread a poem by her, it has different meaning, a different feel. That is the genius of her. If that is not timeless art, I don't know what is. It matters not what she actually meant, but our response to it matters more to us.

I see that you like Albert Camus, an existentialist writer too. Love his book, "The Myth of Sisyphus" - a tale of man condemned for all eternity to push a stone up, it slid down and him pushing it up again. The futility of human existence.

Yes, well, it is absurd that time erodes all achievement and death scuppers all our plans. Leads to no hope, no faith, the gist of existentialism, but always reminded me of Sura I03 : The Declining Day (a.k.a. Time or The Flight of Time) of the Qur'an for a more hopely vision:

I swear by the declining day
that man is deep in loss
except for those who have faith,
do good deeds, urge one another to the truth
and urges one another to steadfastness

What makes writers effective in their works regardless of whatever faith they are or whether they don't believe in God, is their ability to relate the human condition that we all can relate to. This universalism is the mark of all great thinkers and writers.

Russell D:)

Always a pleasure to see you remain unflustered and unruffled by any of my teasings and pokings of atheists. Got any popcorns left?

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated :):):)

You have been very busy! You quote too much from NT/Jesus Seminar Scholars, but not from the Bible. I wonder why that is.

And you quote Karen Armstrong in another thread that "We are all children of God". Ahhhhh...so now I understand the infantile behavior that I can really get into and match you.

You also ask: "What's new pussycat?" in the main thread on this question. Let me try to respond to that, Ummmm........

"I am woman hear me meow. Or was it, I am woman hear me roar?"

MeeoowwwwwwwwwwwwwwroarrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Meow. Meow. Meow. Prrrrrrrrrrrrr...........

Thank you and best regards
J :)

David,

The authors of the NT were not eye witnesses. See Father Ray Brown's Book, An Introduction to the New Testament, for non-tradition accounts.

Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen use historical analyses (to include the limited archeology available) of the NT and related documents to get at the historical truth, the basic problem being that the books of the NT do not agree with each other i.e. they are poor historical records. By using those accounts that do agree i.e. attestations and when the accounts were written, NT exegetes have been able to determine what really happened in the first century CE.

"Far away, across the fields, the tolling of the iron bell, draws the faithful to their knees in a softly spoken magic spell."

Pink Floyd.

Concerned

I find no legitamate reason to believe in the assumptions of some Crossan fellow over the personal eye witness accounts of the apostles who in fact died for their beliefs. I'm sure Crossan wouldn't be willing to put his life on the line for his ASSUMPTIONS. Because that's all they really are, are assumptions.

Concerned guy,

Ok I'll take your word for it.....dum dumduh dum dum...

Hey I'm sure you can answer this question for me since you like Crossan so much. It's very important.

What color panties does he wear?

I'm sure you would know.

David,

Being a Christian/Catholic, I have identified the flaws in these religions and have moved to correct them by listing them many times on this blog to make people think about where they came from and how much have they been brainwashed by the established hierarchies. One more time for your benefit:

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed, plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the OT and John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Concerned,

Since you seem to be so concerned with pointing out flaws in particular religions, how about working out your own flaws first? I'm sure you have a lot of work to do, so go at it buddy! Until then your words are just empty meaningless, hateful ranting that deserves no respect or recognition. In fact it's probably best to just ignore ya alltogether.

I'm in a weird mood today.....

Here's one for those atheists in the group who keep calling religion stupid - they'll like it. In the decades that I was an atheist, it was one of my favorites, almost autobiographical. I still like it, altho it has no real message for me now. It is bitter and pessimistic, and, as performed, unbearably powerful.

Locomotive Breath
Jethro Tull

In the shuffling madness
of the locomotive breath
runs the all-time loser
headlong to his death
he feels the pistons screaming
steam breaking on his brow
old Charlie stole the handle
and the train it won't stop going
no he couldn't slow down

He sees his children jump off
at stations one by one
his woman and his best friend
in bed and having fun
he's crawling down the corridor
on his hands and knees
old Charlie stole the handle
and the train it won't stop going
no he couldn't slow down

He hears the silence howling
catches angels as they fall
and the all-time winner
has got him by the balls
he picks up Gideon's bible
open at page one
it says, "God, he stole the handle"
and the train it won't stop going
no he couldn't slow down
no way to slow down.

"I say follow your bliss and don't be afraid and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be."

-Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth (1988)

ANON E MOOSE:
My favorite Cohen would have to be "Tower of Song"

Well, my friends are gone, and my hair is grey.
I ache in the places where I used to play,
and I'm crazy for love, but I'm not coming on.
I'm just paying my rent every day in the tower of song.

I said to Hank Williams, "How lonely does it get?"
Hank Williams hasn't answered yet,
but I hear him coughing all night long
a hundred floors above me in the tower of song.

I was born like this, I had no choice.
I was born with the gift of a golden voice
and twenty-seven angels from the great beyond -
they tied me to this table right here in the tower of song.

So you can stick your little pins in that voodoo doll.
I'm very sorry, babe, it don't look like me at all.
I'm standing by the window where the light is strong.
They don't let a woman kill you, not in the tower of song.

Now you can say that I've grown bitter, but of this you can be sure:
the rich have got their channels in the bedrooms of the poor,
and there's a mighty judgement coming, but I may be wrong.
You see, I hear these funny voices in the tower of song.

I see you standing on the other side.
I don't know how the river got so wide.
I loved you,baby, way back when.
And allthe bridges are burning that we might have crossed,
but I feel so close to everything that we lost,
We'll never,we'll never have to lose it again.

Now I bid you farewel, I don't know when I'll be back.
They're moving us tomorrow to the tower down the track,
but you'll be hearing from me, baby, long after I'm gone.
I'll be speaking to you sweetly from a window in the tower of song.

Well, my friends are gone, and my hair is grey.
I ache in the places where I used to play,
and I'm crazy for love, but I'm not coming on.
I'm just paying my rent every day in the tower of song.

"It's high time we all spend a little less time looking good and a little more time being good"

To: Jihadist

Emily Dickinson wrote over a thousand poems, which, over time, became increasingly complex in meaning, ever more obtuse and difficult to understand. None of them were ever analyzed in her lifetime, so we cannot ask her what she meant. Although she made many allusions to the Christianity of her locality, even patterning the rythm and meter of her poetry after Protestant hymns, it is by no means certain what she believed. In fact, by the content of her poetry, there is evidence that she was a skeptical agnostic.

I am a Christian, but I do not consider myself, in particular, nor any Christian, in general, to be superior to atheists. In fact, atheists tend to be the most interesting and intelligent of people. If you feel confident in your own belief, then there is no need to with-draw from and be afraid of atheists.

I am a fan of the French writer, Albert Camus, who was an atheisit. One of my favorite quotes from him is this:

"What is happinesss, but the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads."

If you choose to cut yourself off from anything that you consider to be atheistic, then you miss out on alot.

And please remember, that mental conformity to doctrine is not belief; fundamentalist certainty is not faith.

Jihadist:

You little minx you. ;)

Andrea:

I also like: Nani Nani Boo Boo.

Works wonders.

I have enough trouble just believing that humans aren't all evil arses to spend too many mindcycles on god, then I read Octavio Paz, and remember the devine nature of love:

I travel your length, like a river,
I travel your body, like a forest,
like a mountain path that ends at a cliff
I travel along the edge of your thoughts,
and my shadow falls from your white forehead,
my shadow shatters, and I gather the pieces
and go with no body, groping my way, (...)
...because two bodies, naked and entwined,
leap over time, they are invulnerable,
nothing can touch them, they return to the source,
there is no you, no I, no tomorrow,
no yesterday, no names, the truth of two
in a single body, a single soul,
oh total being... (...)
to love is to battle, if two kiss
the world changes, desires take flesh
thoughts take flesh, wings sprout
on the backs of the slave, the world is real
and tangible, wine is wine, bread
regains its savor, water is water,
to love is to battle, to open doors,
to cease to be a ghost with a number
forever in chains, forever condemned
by a faceless master;
the world changes
if two look at each other and see (...)

Dear Susan,

This is one your first posts that is not cynical propaganda. You deviate from you agent provocateur approach in a most charming manner. You should consider this more balanced approach in the more often in the future.

Your previous post of faith in the practitioners of medicine, for example was a paranoid fantasy bereft of balance. The suspicions you raised about your well meaning neighbors did not include the sins of Atheist doctors like the ones in China who harvest organs for sale on the transplant market from prisoners, or Dr. Kevorkian who thought the HE was God. Instead, you to focused on well meaning physicians who pray for the well being of their patients. How terrible THOSE guys are!

Of course, honest balance may be less commercially appealing than your usual troll of promoting paranoia against Christians to generate controversy and thus gain notoriety for yourself.

David and Terra,

Hmmm, a "pretty wingie talking flying fictional thingie" is now a terrorist. Will it be Moroni, Gabriel, Michael, Tubuas, Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and/or Raguel? Homeland Security will add the names to their watch list upon your identification.

With respect to The Jihadist, all she and her fellow "liberal" Islamics need to do is address the flaws in the foundations of their religion. They never do. And they also never condemn the terrorist activities of Islamic states like Iran. Considering the importance of this issue, I will continue my campaign of religious flaw recognition. The Five F Rule/Passage -"First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations"!!!

To reiterate the flaws in my Christianity for Terra's benefit:

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed, plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the OT and John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

You may never see too many Christians back up a Muslim on here, but Jihadist you'll have to excuse Mr. "Concerned". The only thing he seems to be concerned about is how ignorant he can get with the repetitive hateful postings.

We may not have the same faiths, but I'm sure we can agree on Concerned's repetitive ignorance. And "Concerned", I may have a different faith than many on here, and you might too, but that doesn't give anyone the right to disrespect. If anything, in a pluralistic society we can show some kind of love even to those with opposite or opposing faiths. Time to grow up man or I might just send one of my "tiny wingie" friends to haunt your house! :)

Concerned,
Do you get over tired in all the work you make for yourself to be rude and ugly?

I am a little interested in the flaws of all religions...including my own. Yours is not perfect and free of flaws or plagiarizing.

You are like a sibling that fights with his brother..."Father likes me best..."

There is enough fighting and hate in the world, do you have to add to it?
terra

Jihadist, that's harsh and what's wrong with sci-fi writers? You love Arthur C Clarke's "The Nine Billion Names of God." Here's a one liner quote from a non-literary source - "We can never finally know. I simply believe some part of the human Self or Soul is not subject to the laws of space and time" - Carl Jung.

Cheers

Ahh, The Jihadist is back from investing all that oil blood money.

Now that you are here again, what about those flaws in the foundations of Islam????

Some of your favorite passages from "Plagiarized Central" aka the koran???

My previous post is for Jihadist.

You're welcome. "Lot's Wife" isn't a book. It's the Anna Akhmatova poem that Miss Jacoby quotes above. I just happen to prefer Wilbur's translation.

If you want to know what a poet finds beautiful, go here:

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/poetry/because.html

I don't reproduce it here because I don't want to compromise Nemerov's copyright.

...............soooooooooooooo boring with one-liner quotes here and there.

Godfrey

Thanks for the tip on how to zoom up Secularist's Corner for easier reading. And thanks for the clarification on baptism.

You made a valid point when quoting a whole book, Richard Wilbur's "Lot's Wife". Not one verse, not one passage, not one quote from scripture or literature really define one's faith or beliefs.

It takes a whole book, or whole libraries of books to influence, shape, define how one thinks and feel about life and the human condition apart from one's personal experiences.

Daniel

Thanks for reminding me of that Emily Dickinson's poem. Better than someone coming up with his/her own terrible, terrible unrythmic doggerel such as:

i saw a star
i reach for it
i miss
there is no god

i walk out
it rained
i forgot the umbrella
god is dead

i was cold
i started a fire
i burnt my finger
god is cruel

Russell D

Hello, hello. Being ready for, ready for or starting trouble? This is an opportunity to tease you. What's wrong with quoting the Bible if a secular humanist thinks it is just a work of literature of the greatest story or myth ever told?

I love the King James' Shakespearean English version of the Bible. Take the Genesis - a poetic allusion on creation and enlightenment - let there be light, and there was light. Marry it, or read it in tandem with the An Nur Sura in the Qur'an - light upon light, God do guide whom It will to It, and all seem beutifully connected for those who cared.

........and to all other secular humanists/agnostics/atheists/freethinkers :)

Surely some of you can do better than to thrash some believers quoting passages from scriptures in other threads.

I half expected some, many of you to quote passages from Hitchens' or Dawkin's books, or to quote Einstein to sum up what you believe in, and why, but their books are not literature in the pure sense.

Atheists don't read literature except those by Asimov, Arthur C Clarke, Philip K Dick et al? Athiests don't watch other movies except Monthy Python's "Life of Brian" and to quote from it?

Come on! Saying Robert M Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" defined how and what you think is better than saying - look around and learn. In what way? From whom?

There's more to life than "Star Trek" tv and movie series or the "The Matrix" movies. I personally think the British sixties TV series, "The Prisoner", starring Patrick McGoohan, is more interesting than either - a who am I, who are you, where am I, why am I here, why are you holding me as prisoner of body and mind storyline weirdly compelling as a TV series.

So, what and which one/s? Literature I mean, that defined your own faith/beliefs/philosophy and why.

"Nothing exists except atoms and empty space. Everything else is opinion." - Democritus

by the way Islamist...

Jacoby's heart and humanity is apparent in all her writings and they reach me across physical and mental oceans and chasms - mind to mind, heart to heart, human to human. Blushing yet? Good! Get over it you rugger-bugger!!! :):):)

Have a good weekend y'all.

Best regards as ever
J

This is a dialogue between Joan of Arc and Fire.

Now the flames they followed Joan of Arc
as she came riding thru the dark
No moon to keep her armour bright
no man to get her thru this very smoky night.
She said: I'm tired of this war
I want the kind of work I had before
A wedding dress or something white to
wear upon my swollen appetite.

Well, I'm glad to hear you talk this way
you know I've watched you riding ev'ry day
Something in me yearns to win
such a cold and lonesome heroine.
And who are you, she sternly spoke
to the one beneath the smoke
Why I'm fire, he replied
and I love your solitude, I love your pride.

Then fire make your body cold
I'm gonna give you mine to hold
Saying this she climbed inside
to be his one, to be his only bride.
And deep into his fiery heart
he took the dust of Joan of Arc
And high above the wedding guests
he hung the ashes of her wedding dress.

It was deep into his fiery heart
he took the dust of Joan of Arc
And then she clearly understood
if he was fire, oh, then she must be wood.
I saw her wince, I saw her cry
I saw the glory in her eye
Myself, I long for love and light
but must it come so cruel and, oh, so bright!

-by Leonard Cohen

I love this peice but does it best reflect my beleifs? Intellectually it seems not at all appopriate and I push it aside. But it won't be ignored, my gut says it's on the money.

Russell,

I agree. I quoted Tom Waits for mine...

"Don't you know there aint no Devil. There's just god when he's drunk."

Quoting the Bible is all good fun, but at most pointless. The best philosophies for life come from the people around you and the people that came before you. Look around and learn.

My favorite is this:

A person who is ready for trouble is more dangerous than a man who is looking for it.

Since there are so many Bible-quoters around, it is not necessary for me to pick one more.

But I do have a couple of other quotes, about hope, which relate to faith, which in my opinion, is very different from "fundamentalist" certainty, in which hope is not necessary.

"While I breath, I hope."
(a very old motto of uncertain origin).

And also, a poem by Emily Dickenson:

"Hope is a strange invention-
A patent of the heart-
In unremitting action
Yet never wearing out-

Of this electric Adjunct
Not anything is known
But its unique momentum
Embellish all we own-"

This must be a good question, because the mood here is lighter than usual.

The most poignant and moving passage from my beliefs:

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

Poetry in motion, perpetuated by the drive of the few who strive for proof of things they cannot see.

I recommend Richard Wilbur's translation of "Lot's Wife." I think you'll like it.

I went looking for an inspirational verse to put up, but I realized inspiration isn't what I look for in poetry.

"A cult is a religion with no political power."

Tom Wolfe

My dear Jihadist!

Good morning. A neo-romantic soul under that veneer of a suave, cool and calculating banker? Or a restless, relentless seeker of truth underneath that aura of piety? You are always very complicated my friend, and this is quite a sight to see a devout believer like you opening your heart to a hardcore atheist like Jacoby on poetry. I'm sure you'll also be reading Renanscence by Edna St. Vincent Millay again. Here's another one by her that you already know, but as a reminder all the same:

My candle burns at both ends
It will not last the night
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends
It gives a lovely light.

Cheers

What passage or verse in scripture or literature best defines your own faith or beliefs? Why?

I could not decide what one verse defines my faith...why does this song Enchanted Loom define my beliefs? I believe each being is born with the spark of the Creator...no matter what you name that being. We each are co creators of the world we live in, we are the hands and hearts that represent our gods. What we do does matter...our world is our responcibility. My spirit is that spark of the divine and I am connected to the Godhood with it...I am responcible for my actions and I am responcible for this Earth. Earth that was created with all we needed to survive and succeed is becoming a garbage dump..and We who know better are creating death.

With the belief that all life is a web, Pagans feel a connection with each other and the entities of the Earth more then maybe those who see things in a more linear way. This gives a different world view, and maybe a different dream.

The Enchanted Loom
(words & music by Jesse Wolf Hardin with Loba)

"It’s said there are invisible threads of energy binding all the shamans of the world to one another.... and something connects each of us as well: the empathics and sensitives who dwell on the edge, who hear the calling, and keep the pledge. Practitioners of authenticity and wholeness, reinhabiting sacred self and sacred land. Seekers of significance and purpose, the last to give up the ancient ways, and the first to explore the new. Those its said may cry too hard, or laugh too loud.... that dare to care, so much!

Each an integral component, of a lineage of place holders: unbridled children and wizened elders, willful wilders, wiccans and wizards on whose souls rest the responsibility to invoke a new/old Earth, an Earth once again green and growing, dynamic and diverse, feral and free. Our shared ministry is this most insistent calling. And our liturgy.... is our love.

Conservationists, restorationists and healers. Teachers, activists and defenders. Artists, ritualists and celebrants– all rare conduits of clarity in an age of blinding noise and neon. We’re the reinhabitants of Ectopia and Katuah, the verdant Northeast and the mountains and deserts of the mystical Southwest, of watersheds and wildernesses, sacred groves and organic farms. In tryst with rivers and forests, promised to a particular valley, or courting all the Earth in a gypsy’s search for home.

We’re returning to an older way of being as well, to the great mystery– humbled by our place in the awesome harmonic Whole. We’re determined to dance out our individual dances, never losing step with that greater choreography of which we are a part. Like the fabled Alice, we each pursue furtive magic through the openings in the roots of trees and the imaginations of children. Getting down on our hands and knees, we make our way back to that Gaian Wonderland we can never really leave.

I’m excited! The energy is incredible. The transition, no matter how bright, demands that we look! Unwavering vision. Unwavering intent. I’m excited! Because I sense more acutely than ever our connection to one another, and to those spirits and life forms we call “other.” It’s not really a thread that connects us after all, you know– but strands of a miraculous web. We can feel each other from great distances, through its delicate vibrations. We have only to reach out now, along these fibers, over roaring rivers, underneath a canopy of trees, in order to touch the source.... through the warp and weft of interconnected consciousness. Though we may live and work in different places, we are but one tribe, with a single unified cause. Champions of sentience and sacrament, bodily extensions and voluntary agents of holy Will.

The whispering river and the rustling of the leaves are this inspirited Whole, trying to get our attention. Gaia, The Earth, is speaking to us through the voices of all creation. Yes, I’m excited! I stand as if barefoot, out of breath, staring wide-eyed at the wonder of the magic exploding before us. I’m thrilled to witness this re-becoming, this song... as we’re each reintegrated into the living, breathing flux, each made to feel we belong. I’m thrilled, because as loving and responsive care-takers, we’re fulfilling our true evolutionary role, redeeming our species as well as our selves.

No, we humans are not the brain of Gaia, the divine director– the anointed weaver that sets design rules for the patterns in rock, the flow of fire, the perfect twists in peach-colored sea shell. But we are the voluntary magic that fills the enchanted loom, reaching out in our efforts to restore the planet. Reaching out for each other. Reaching down deep again with our splayed toes, our anxious probing roots.... embracing the innermost heart of the Mother Earth, and thereby reaching out, out– until the sun encircled.

Anon,

Loving my neighbor is indeed a choice. I love them so much I call the police whenever they threaten to kill each other.

By the way, the passage was not uttered by Jesus as per contemporary NT analyses.

e.g.

Mark 12: 28-34 was an addition to the Gospel by Mark et al and not said by Jesus as per Professor Crossan's analyses. 201. not historical Jesus- The Chief Commandment: (1) Mark 12:28-34 = Matt 22:34-40,46b = Luke 10:25-28, (2) Did. 1:2a (from Professor Crossan's book, The Historical Jesus)

See also http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/201_The_Chief_Commandment

An excerpt:
"Lüdemann [Jesus, 85f] suggests that Mark was handing on the tradition he had received without any significant change, but he sees the two fold summary of the law as a reductionist and anti-cultic development from the early Christian community, rather than as a saying of Jesus:

The historical yield of the tradition is nil, since it is firmly rooted in the community and is to be derived from its needs. This community has detached itself from the temple cult and justifies this with reference to 'Jesus.' Moreover at another point Jesus gives a completely new definition of the term neighbour (see on Luke 10.30-37)."

"Wherever You Go, There You Are"

It's the title of a book by John Kabat-Zinn on meditation and mindfulness that I read a number of years ago. It doesn't sum up my outlook on faith, but it is something to take to heart if your goal is to try to calm your life or search for an inner peace, as well as live "in the moment" and for the moment...

"I am more of a Manichaean now than ever," said Martin.

-- Voltaire, Candide

Concerned the Christian (if you say so) Now Liberated,

"Love thy neighbor" is not a quote with conditions of your own choosing.

So Christ-like you are!

Jihadist,

I trust the flaws in the foundations of Islam make you supremely sad and sappy.

"Love thy neighbor" works for me as long as the neighbor is not a suicide bomber or terrorist or financier of said terrorism.

Walt Whitman
Leaves of Grass

33. To Him that was Crucified

MY spirit to yours, dear brother;
Do not mind because many, sounding your name, do not understand you;
I do not sound your name, but I understand you, (there are others also;)...

With so many choices for eloquent and insightful poetic observations concerning the human condition, all others exist in the shadow of the immortal words of Larry LaPrise:

"You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around. That's what it's all about."

Indeed.

Jihadist and Susan,

THE BUDDHA SAID:

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

NOTHING BETTER HAS EVER BEEN SAID

****************

DYLAN THOMAS:

After the first death, there is no other.

A REFUSAL TO MOURN THE DEATH, BY FIRE, OF A CHILD IN LONDON

Ms. Susan Jacoby,

I came back wondering how I should ask WaPo to delete my previous post here. But your post opened a door for me to acknowledge the "truth" found in good and great poetry on human experiences, observations and aspirations.

My previous post is "offensive" in my not admitting that I do read and love poetry. It is "offensive" too in my not giving that good poetry move me much.

Yes, poetry is potent in expressing human emotions, cogent in articulating human thoughts.

"Sappy" is a wrong and dishonest word to use when one actually meant that one is deeply touched, seared or uplifted by any poetry.

And yes, thank you for reminding it is far, far better to read poetry than to troll the Internet for forays into human hearts and minds, for the discovery and rediscovery of the human spirit.

Thank you and best regards
J

Jihadist--

Your comments always interest me. Poetry should never make you sappy. Rather, bad poetry should make you sappy, but not great poetry.

Poetry is condensed emotion, which is why it is so powerful. Better to read poetry than to troll the Internet.

Ms. Susan Jacoby

What a beautiful surprise. Thank you for the poetry, but they do rouse up mixed feelings in me. In my current state of mental and physical exhaustion, poetry makes me sappy.

The Bible never promise eternal life, only that the soul is immortal. That is a poetic expression of human longing and dreams.

in this short life
that only last an hour
how much how little
is within our power

- a free rerendition of an Emily Dickinson's poem.

Human love and longing can be a millstone around one's neck if one can never let go, can never forget, can never move on from what one has, to leave behind freely or by force of circumstances.

I love this earth too, for this is all we have and to make the best of it.

I have seen this earth, a poor earth and its wretched inhibitants that has nothing but hope and faith.

I have seen another earth, a rich earth and its self-indulgent inhibitants that has everything and are cynical about everything.

I do, do want to see another earth here and now and forever.

This is beyond longing but an unrealistic obsession, a self-consuming passion, and an unobtainable ambition? Of course it is.

Dare to dream grand dreams. Dare to have great delusions about this poor earth and its poor souls.

More for me than for you or anyone else.

Thank you and best regards
J