It's not "Incivility," It's Racial Prejudice

Pseudo,

Indeed, Robert Frost and Thomas Wolfe both had it right, although I once had every intention of going back for good.

Life is a road that only runs one way, whichever fork one takes.....

- all the best with future poetic musings, LBJ, etc.

Persiflage,

hmm... There are places where that LBJ thing doesn't scan. Needs more work. Still sometimes tossing 'em off and posting while they are rough is the only way to get them posted at all.

Persiflage,

I understand. The crack about moving was but a jest. An expression of sympathy at feeling out of synch because you take a different path.

"Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
...
Yet knowing how way lead on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back."

And all, I guess.

Pseudo,

We're agreed on LBJ's legacy. His significant role in civil rights and race relations is generally underplayed, if not ignored.

PS. I've been away from the Midwest for many years, and I'll have been here in SC more than 10 years when I retire in the near future. Moving is not always an option. The solitary life suits me anyway.

I just got back from Michigan, and somehow it doesn't really feel like home any more, although a good place to live if you don't need to work! Many more white Obama supporters, but with severe economic issues. Perhaps my daughter will give me permanent visitation rights!

regards -

Oh,yes. We disagreed with the present administration on his pro-abortion policies; his support for gay sex and naming June as Gay Pride Month; his desire to open our borders ever further and to look the other way on illegal immigrants and we got labeled as rightwing terrorists. Now, we're racists also. Since they can't silence us because facts prove us right, they have to resort to name calling in hopes that they can somehow shame us into silence.

Disagreeing with President Obama does not make a person racist. But, attacking, not on the basis of his legislation, but by attacking his person, which none of us can control, we are given who we are by birth, his right to BE our President IS racist. As one commentator said tonight: A telling difference is to look at the efforts to pass health care reform under the Clintons. Almost all the arguments were against the bills. And this year? This year, we've had the "birthers" and the "deathers" and the "tenthers" [govt cannot get into health care at all under the Tenth Amendment...I guess that requires the repeal of Medicare, VA, SCHIP, etc.). We've had people denying (with great emotion) that he is our President, claiming that he wasn't born here, that he is destroying our country, that "I want my country back! He is not "one of us". Just which US are they referring? The US that are American citizens? The US that are "capable" of being President? The US that are white? Why is it in all the town hall meetings, virtually EVERY one who spoke out was white (and I am also white); but you would think that at least in some parts of the country, minorities would be present at these town hall meetings. And yet, it was almost uniformly white people who have been encouraged to see the PResident as someone "other" than they.

Rep Joe Wilson, when his staffers are asked "why shouldn't he be courtmartialed for contempt toward the President (Article 88 of the UCMJ) first try and argue that he was right on the facts...well, I doubt it, as Politifact has looked at the information. But, what if he WAS right? Does that give him reason (or justification) for his shout at one of the most quintessentially Presidential acts: Addressing a Joint Session of Congress? Would he have done this with Bill Clinton? (And we all know what a lot of Republicans thought of his veracity!) I don't think so. then, what other conclusion can I draw? Rep Joe Wilson felt free to speak contemptuously of this President because he objects to the reality that this black man is President. I think that the only conclusion is that this is racism. And Rep Wilson's post speech comments leave me no other choice. He's not embarrassed, he's not repentent, no, he's just upset because he got caught.

As a commissioned officer in the National Guard, he is part of the command structure of the American military. For more than 200 years, we have held an attitude of respect for the office of President. We have been proud that our forces serve and honor the office of Commander in Chief, that our military is apolitical and will not support a coup. I may not like the president; I may disagree with his policies, but no matter, he is my commander in chief. As a military officer I have no politics; I also have no opinion other than to faithfully execute the laws to which I have sworn to obey, and defend those above me and this country whose uniform I wear. So has Joe Wilson. With his shout on Wednesday, he violated that oath.

Pr Chris

Persiflage,

"I live in South Carolina, and finding white Obama supporters is like looking for a needle in a haystack - how shall we interpret this?"

You should move?

In Memoriam of LBJ

I grew up in a city by race wars long destroyed
The economic losses sealed destruction unalloyed

So many hearts and places by the heartless flames consumed
The now long empty spaces by lost industry were doomed

Those vivid tongues of hatred might have burned the nation too
But for the fight for civil rights old Johnson did assume

His faults they were so glaring like his fall in Vietnam
But his strength held such caring when he heard sad Selma's songs
Or when he saw the eyes of those who bore much unearned wrong

A generation's outrage at this man's frailties
Lost sight of his great fight for everybody's liberties

It IS actually possible to disagree with Obama's policies because one disagrees with his policies. I agree our political discourse is uncivil, but that doesn't make it racist. It's been uncivil for sometime - remember the booing during a State of the Union address by President Bush? Remember the "Bush as Hitler" meme?

I believe your "racial" interpretation is ridiculous and just a way to try to shut people up.

Fortunately for Obama, the thickness of his skin seems to be at least as important as it's pigmentation. He never expected a picnic at the Whitehouse, and of that we can be certain.

Trailblazing is never easy, especially given the fact that he's both black and a democrat - Oh, and the first black democratic POTUS.

Assaults on the executive branch from the right are so unrelenting, it's pretty hard to tell what the motives might be.

Were he a republican (in an alternate universe), I just don't see democrats sinking to the same level of epithetical stupidity as smokey Joe Wilson - whether or not it had anything to do directly with racism is not something we'll ever know.

However, his outburst clearly panders to his constituents in South Carolina (and GOP fundamentalists everywhere) - and passes muster as indirect support of racist ideology, at the very least.

I live in South Carolina, and finding white Obama supporters is like looking for a needle in a haystack - how shall we interpret this?

At best, such a blatant lack of awareness in an elected official says something about the kind of folks that get elected to high public office these days - and even more about their supporters.

Whether the issues can ever be truly be argued without the shadow of racist inuendo hanging overhead is questionable - and for all you non-racist republicans out there, check out the singularity of the political situation for a change, rather than all this self-defensive bleating and complaining.

Only you know what's in your heart.

Does racism still exist? You bet. Obama and the liberals are all too guilty. Playing the racism card when none exists is racism. We had the example of Skip Gates being arrested for being a jerk. If he were white, no one would have heard of it. Now, we have Jimmy Carter, one of the worst presidents in the history of the country, playing the race card. Joe Wilson can't call a black president a liar but Pete Stark can call a white president a liar (Google "pete stark bush liar")? That is racism, plain a simple.

Are whites mature enough to be led by a black president? If the choices are either to agree with whatever Obama says or be labeled a racist, then no – whites are not mature enough to be led by a black president.

Good evening Arminius.

More exactly, good morning. I hope your rest was sublime.

You are a gifted mind, if not prone to assault, personal and extra-terrestrial. Or extra-ternal. I liked this quote, recently:

"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones."

So true. It will be proved irrefutable if it proves out in the Bush legacy. Of course, one could argue that there is little to wring out of the bones... And that would be a odds on argument...

But then, the whole supposition is that whatever is good about a man is buried, and so unknown or unrecognized.

Joe Wilson's real name is:
Addison Graves Wilson Senior

He lies when he call himself "joe".
YOU LIE!!

But seriously folks:
Policy differences don't cause people (especially a trained lawyer(liar?) and politician to burst out with an outburst. Deep emotional hatred does, possibly the kind Southern white males have demonstrated for centuries. Hmmmm.

Farnaz,

OK, and very good, we're on the same page with LBJ.

As for Wilson, I'm not yet convinced that his past associations are truly past. But I am open to more data.

Meanwhile, I will follow my own advice and sign off 'til the morn.

Arminius,

I'm not tossing LBJ away! Quite the contrary! I admired him for his achievements as Speaker of the House and for his civil rights work.

That is the point, but I think I made it badly.
We do not know what Wilson said. To hang him as Susan does for his past affiliations is shoddy. Do you see?

Farnaz,

Do not totally toss away the life of a person because of some bad screwups.

Truman was briefly associated with the KKK. He soon left it. When president, he pushed through the first step to abolishing segregation: he forced the integration of the armed forces.

Any Byrd - yes, early on an avowed racist. Later repudiated it. And he was the only man in Congress to get up and make an excellent speech condemning the decision to go to war in Iraq.

LBJ's record speaks for itself. Sure, Vietnam was inexcusable. But does that negate the incredible good he did for civil rights? Where would we be now without that?

"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones."

Wow, this is really wild. Combing through the web it's as if he's been rewritten as the messiah. He was an impressive man, but he did not admit to having cut down the cherry tree.

He also could have stopped that hideous war. HIs achievements from the forties through the sixties in civil rights were astonishing; however, he had been a white supremacist.

Weird stuff, I'm finding. NOt the first time I've seen this sort of thing, though. Not by a long shot.

If I did not have the original New York Times newspapers throughout the Crown Heights riots, I would think they had reported on it. I'd probably believe what they printed just a couple of years ago.

I would have.

I will try to find the sources. I posted on this awhile ago. Part of the problem is that I much of my stuff is packed away.

However, if you are of that generation, I'm surprised you don't know about it. It was discussed in some depth at the time, testimony at least here in New York to one's ability to change.

Will seek sources.

Are you thinking of Robert Byrd perhaps? I did a web dredge on Johnson in the KKK. Not a trace of it. You know, I did remember hearing once long ago that Johnson's father was abused by the Klan and that he had an abiding animus against them. It was so long ago that I cannot trace the source. He did set the FBI on them and basically was responsible for dismantling them as an effective organization. The man was exemplary in his battle for human rights. To suggest that he was a "card carrying member of the KKK" is a real stretch. I would like to know your sources. For if he had some early association with that band of terrorists there is no sign of it in his career.

From his "We Shall Overcome" speech of 15 March 1965 in Washington D.C.

"My first job after college was as a teacher in Cotulla, Texas, in a small Mexican-American school. Few of them could speak English, and I couldn't speak much Spanish. My students were poor and they often came to class without breakfast, hungry. And they knew, even in their youth, the pain of prejudice. They never seemed to know why people disliked them. But they knew it was so, because I saw it in their eyes. I often walked home late in the afternoon, after the classes were finished, wishing there was more that I could do. But all I knew was to teach them the little that I knew, hoping that it might help them against the hardships that lay ahead.

And somehow you never forget what poverty and hatred can do when you see its scars on the hopeful face of a young child. I never thought then, in 1928, that I would be standing here in 1965. It never even occurred to me in my fondest dreams that I might have the chance to help the sons and daughters of those students and to help people like them all over this country.

But now I do have that chance -- and I'll let you in on a secret -- I mean to use it."

Pseudo,

Either I was unclear or you missed my point. I have blogged extensively on LBJ. He was a Klansman in the 1930s. He never denied it.

He also forced (almost literally) civil rights legislation in both the 1950s and 1960s, the latter better known.

My point to Susan was that she was invoking guilt by association, as well as making hasty generalizations.

Another excerpt from Lyndon Johnson.

"This was the first nation in the history of the world to be founded with a purpose. The great phrases of that purpose still sound in every American heart, North and South: "All men are created equal," "government by consent of the governed," "give me liberty or give me death." Well, those are not just clever words, or those are not just empty theories. In their name Americans have fought and died for two centuries, and tonight around the world they stand there as guardians of our liberty, risking their lives.

Those words are a promise to every citizen that he shall share in the dignity of man. This dignity cannot be found in a man's possessions; it cannot be found in his power, or in his position. It really rests on his right to be treated as a man equal in opportunity to all others. It says that he shall share in freedom, he shall choose his leaders, educate his children, provide for his family according to his ability and his merits as a human being. To apply any other test -- to deny a man his hopes because of his color, or race, or his religion, or the place of his birth is not only to do injustice, it is to deny America and to dishonor the dead who gave their lives for American freedom."

Farnaz,

"Reason, logic, knowledge are always useful tools for educators. LBJ, who pushed the Civil Rights acts through Congress, bringing to bear all the weight he could as the most powerful House Majority Leader in history, was a card-carrying member of the Ku Klux Klan."

Do you have some reputable source for that? I doubt it. You see, I was there for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which I doubt you were. I knew some Klansmen back then too, and I can assure you that not one of them claimed Lyndon B. Johnson as one of theirs. I remember the speech he gave on television when he signed the bill. This is part of what he said:

"We believe that all men are created equal. Yet many are denied equal treatment.

We believe that all men have certain unalienable rights. Yet many Americans do not enjoy those rights.

We believe that all men are entitled to the blessings of liberty. Yet millions are being deprived of those blessings--not because of their own failures, but because of the color of their skin.

The reasons are deeply imbedded in history and tradition and the nature of man. We can understand--without rancor or hatred--how this all happened.

But it cannot continue. Our Constitution, the foundation of our Republic, forbids it. The principles of our freedom forbid it. Morality forbids it. And the law I will sign tonight forbids it. ...

This Civil Rights Act is a challenge to all of us to go to work in our communities and our States, in our homes and in our hearts, to eliminate the last vestiges of injustice in our beloved country.

So tonight I urge every public official, every religious leader, every business and professional man, every workingman, every housewife--I urge every American--to join in this effort to bring justice and hope to all our people--and to bring peace to our land.

My fellow citizens, we have come now to a time of testing. We must not fail.

Let us close the springs of racial poison. Let us pray for wise and understanding hearts. Let us lay aside irrelevant differences and make our Nation whole. Let us hasten that day when our unmeasured strength and our unbounded spirit will be free to do the great works ordained for this Nation by the just and wise God who is the Father of us all.

Thank you and good night."

Sounds just like what a Klansman would have said, doesn't it? I am truly amazed at what you have stooped to here. I thought better of you. I really did.

Criticizing Obama, even vociferously, isn't racism, the poison being pushed here, that no white person has a right to criticize a black (or at least OUR black) is fundamentally evil. And at the heart of this nasty little campaign is the virulent white-hating racism that is the hallmark of modern liberalism; the idea that whites (at least those who aren't self-loathers) are born evil, unique among the peoples of the world in bearing race-guilt for everything their ancestors did, real or imagined, and deserving to be punished, if not worse, for their very existence. There is simply NO opposition to Obama that is not "racism" in the minds of the haters like Thistlewaite, Dowd, etc., not because the content of their protests are racial, but because they are white. Breathing while white is the real crime of Thistlewaite's opponents.

Susan, as always, you are wonderfully at home with patronizing WASP liberalism, distorting, omitting, etc.
------------------------------------
Woe then, to people like Rep. Joe Wilson who are resisting this realization with all their might. Is it just a coincidence that Wilson was an aide to the late Sen. Strom Thurmond? Thurmond, a long-time opponent of Civil Rights, holds the record for the longest filibuster in Senate history, speaking for over 24 hours in opposition to a Civil Rights bill. Another sterling moment in congressional history.
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Reason, logic, knowledge are always useful tools for educators. LBJ, who pushed the Civil Rights acts through Congress, bringing to bear all the weight he could as the most powerful House Majority Leader in history, was a card-carrying member of the Ku Klux Klan.

Joe Wilson's past affiliations do not trouble me. What troubles me is Maureen Dowd's accusation and the aftermath, the whole-hearted acceptance of her revelation, which has yet to be corroborated.

If, in fact, Wilson used the word "boy," racism is at issue. If he did not, one might call him rude, even boorish. That is about it. I don't distrust Dowd on this, but will not assume that she heard correctly until others come forward who heard the same. Ponder, O great white Christian liberator.

Indeed, Persiflage. Indeed.

KJohnson - yes, I explored the possibility of this being a calculated remark over on Jacoby's thread, and it does seem likely. How it would be interpreted by an entire country, was obviously of no concern to blowhard Joe.

And if in fact orchestrated, was not without tacit support from at least some members on the republican side, as you say. In fact, he's getting plenty of vocal support from that very GOP faction as we speak.

The GOP and it's media minions haven't relinquished the primary strategy of obstruction and obfuscation since the early Bush days.

Oblivious to other national concerns, and seemingly manipulating every situation with their solitary political objective of regaining control of the government in mind - this has become the republican raison d'etre.

The self-centeredness exhibited by the GOP at all times is THE great American tragedy. A political party on the ropes, and struggling for survival at all costs.

"The remark was ill-advised, thoughtless, and very bad press for the state that he represents."

Persiflage,

I'll agree with adjectives one and three. However, Wilson's performance was anything but "thoughtless."

Members of Congress all received copies of the president's speech prior to the event. Wilson new exactly what Obama would say, so he was prepared to make his outburst.

And, in all likelihood, there were other members of the House who encouraged him or cheered him on.

This incident was neither spontaneous nor the work of a single fanatic.

If Joe Wilson would have of given even a moment's consideration to the impact of his loudmouthed and misplaced accusation, he'd have realized that being from South Carolina, racism would be the first thought anyone would have - whether accurate or not.

Joe's staunch republican defenders should give that some thought....because he ought to have known better and demonstrated a little more restraint, as an elected public official. Instead, he sounded like one of the drones out there protesting healthcare reform.

In regard to racism - it's not always so easy to get beyond your history. The remark was ill-advised, thoughtless, and very bad press for the state that he represents. I know, because I live here.

The pitiful thing is that Wilson has any defenders at all.

It is bizarre to see how far from reality a lot of media/news types have really gotten to be. I also have a pretty good idea we have nothing in common in our faith since as a Christian being a racist would be a sin. I mean Moses was married to a black woman and that seems to be accepted pretty well in the Bible don't you think?

Basically, you just make me ashamed for you. Ashamed you could be so blind to the truth.

By the way, throw the race card all you want to, it won't stop anything. We're done with being "put in our place" by the likes of you.

The unfortunate truth is that racism thrives in every society, in every country. It has always been a part of the human condition and continues to be today. And none of the world's races is immune to it.

Is this then a case in favor of racism? No. Not in the least. Does this then imply that since it has always been present, and likely will always be present, that somehow that justifies its existence? No. Not at all.

We are making great strides as a species and we continue to evolve but the mere capacity for rational thought does not alone erase our animal fears of those who are different. This protective instinct, endowed upon us by our creator, enabled humanity to survive until the current time. It is important to understand why humanity is racist.

I am not a minority. I am not black. I am not hispanic. I am not asian. I am not gay or lesbian. I am not disabled physically or mentally. I am not old. I have never been the object of blatant racism or prejudice but I have witnessed it as it was delivered to others. I deplore racism and prejudice and I endeavor not to live under any part of their shadows.

I am not a racist simply because I am not part of any minority, and certainly not because I disagree with the views, opinion, or positions of someone who is a part of a minority. It is just as racist to disagree with President Obama because he is black as it is to vote for him because he is black.

Joe Wilson behaved badly in front of the president, congress, and the American public. But he was not incorrect in his assessment.

President Obama lied to me that night, and I am part of the American public. Further, I believe he knew he lied. Joe Wilson pointed that out. I only wish there was a Joe Wilson available when Bush II presented his case for the war in Iraq, or for when Clinton addressed the accusations about Ms. Lewinsky, or when Bush I declared "no new taxes", the list goes on.

I do not find the booing and hissing coming from the floor of congress during the Bush speaches to congress to be any more palatable than Joe Wilson's outburst, and I am certain there were black congressional members involved in those bad behaviors. According to your assessment, those black members were racist.

It is misleading to pretend that racism only comes from one or the other sides of the political aisle.

Woe to you for not including the congressional black caucus, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton in your admonishment of perceived perpetuators of racism.

Joe Wilson was not making a racist outburst. That is not a leap of faith that befits a Former president of Chicago Theological Seminary.

Volkmare

Sometimes seeking the truth can get a little uncomfortable, can't it?

Volkmare

If these racists are "your people" and you stick up for them, then aren't you one, too?

If you are, then why deny it? Why be ashamed of it? Unless you think there is somethiing wrong with being a racist.

And if you think there is something wrong with being a racist, then stop sticking up for them, and call them what they, or else, cast your lot with them.

Are you really so naive that you do not see the elephant in the room?

This essay is extraordinary. In a few short paragraphs, Ms Thistlewaite has dissected and eloquently analyzed the oldest and bitterest argument in our history as a nation and showcased its continuing ravages among a population that won't even admit it exists.

Of course racism still operates here. We've never discussed it as part of our unique social and political history, and that which is suppressed -- or "stuffed down," if you like -- is guaranteed to reemerge with all the original venom...and then some.

Americans forget that our southern states were beaten and forced to surrender to the government of a sworn enemy. This fact does not justify racist behavior or beliefs, but it does explain the simmering anger and resentment that sometimes boils over into rage.

Possibly the biggest problem of all is that the citizens of our southern states cannot admit that they feel this way and the citizens of our other regions will not admit even an inkle of deeply buried prejudice.

"Racial prejudice is America's original sin," says Ms Thistlewaite. "These United States were born in contradiction, the contradiction between the ideals of freedom and equality and the reality of chattel slavery, the enforced bondage of African people and the 'land of the free and the home of the brave.'"

This perspective reinforces the fundamental confusion that Americans feel -- and the avoidance and denial they practice -- about the subject of race. Why pick at a scab? It'll just start oozing again.

Well, that's the whole point. If we keep picking that scab away every few years, and then covering it up again instead of exposing it to the air to heal properly, the ooze is just going to become more foul, more infected, more repulsive.

We need to talk. Not scream. Not wave signs, flags, and crosses. Not point fingers to affix blame. Talk. Talk about what it means to be American, what it feels like to be in a minority, how racial attitudes affect the way we live and interact.

Thank you, Ms Thistlewaite, for offering an opening to the discussion.

You said it, I guess SOMEONE out there believes it, and so that settles it . .. .

you are such a loon!