Guns or God? You Can't Worship Both

Trust in God's protection is fine for those who believe. But, as Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify."

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- Sinners at god’s great judgment, this will happen.
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1 Millions of people who have been invited to accept the lord Jesus christ, as this Jesus, being their personal seen savior. They do insult god, by making excuses not to serve god forever.
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2 And yes, you make excuse now to not serve god forever. But at the great white throne judgment, you will stand before judge Jesus, and there discover, eternally too late, that you are without excuse (Romans 1:20) -- forever.
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3 You may make excuse for not seeing Jesus as your savior, or you will see him as Judge, but see him, you will.
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4 If you choose to make excuse now & not see Jesus as your Personal Savior, then you choose to see him as your judge at the Great White Throne.
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5 And they were judged every man according to their works. And there you will be, without excuse.
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6 Why not accept his invitations now as your personal savior, or see him as your judge at the Great White Throne,
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7 Today is the day of Salvation & invitations, see that Jesus pleads for you and me.
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8 whosever will come. I (Jesus Christ) will give him, water of life -- forever, as saith me -- Holy Forever.
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9 This above writing is from Gladys Wallace and I have rewrote it again (9-12-2009AD) as a small writing found here above. She is deceased and in the hands of god through Jesus -- forever.
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E-807RW 9-12-2009AD / At the great last judgment, this is what will happen. / roger Wallace author / roger dale Wallace author / Washington post / haaretz / wordpress / blogger / end time prophecy / prophecy / a prophecy for pope Benedict XVI / oral Roberts / benny hinn / Infolive / ynet / The judgment of the nations by roger dale Wallace / The god of truth by roger dale Wallace / thevillagecarpenter.info / The god of truth ISBN 978-1-60585-521-9 /
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Trust guns.

They're real.

According to the Gospels, Jesus was unarmed when he was apprehended in the Garden of Gethsemane,

Martin Luther King Jr. was unarmed when he was gunned down in Memphis.

Did the meaning of their existence or their influence on the world suffer?

I'll put my faith in my Bushmaster AR15 with its 30 round magazine and fine trigger; ALL religion is just bad scholarship, faulty reasoning and wishful thinking, i.e., bulls--t.

SUSAN BROOKS THISTLEWAITE:

I posted to you earlier on the fog cast by OnFaith's linking the Kentucky pastor with a few desperate New York City rabbis, who, as in years past, have tried to call attention to the failure of the US government for four decades to protect one segment of New York's (America's)population from threats by racist lunatic Islamist extremists. Here are some comments by panelist, John Mark Reynolds, from his thread. I strongly suggest you read them carefully.
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Farnaz Mansouri:

The fact that people cannot worship in safety in this nation makes me sick.
I hope we can all agree that the REAL scandal, whatever our views of the actions of these particular rabbis, is the ineffective response of the state to the peril of good men and women.

Something should and must be done.

John Mark

Posted by: johnmarkreynolds | September 12, 2009 12:40 PM

SUSAN BROOKS THISTLEWAITE:

Here are more comments by OnFaith panelist, John Mark Reynolds, from his thread.

Let me be as clear as I can be:

1. Most of us in America are very, very safe . . . lucky to be here . . . and served by effective and honest law enforcement. We have little need to be armed to the extent I discuss and it would be unreasonable for us to get too heated up.

2. Sadly some communities are not so served . . . and folk in them are terrorized by gangs or threats of terrorism. Some of my friends who live in these areas have to take self-defense more seriously than I have to do. They live in areas with shocking murder rates fifteen minutes from safe communities.

This should not be tolerated but has gone on for years. Why should this be? Should they allow innocents to die while they wait for "help" that keeps on not coming?
Certain groups in American culture have strong historic reasons to think that state power will not always be on their side. This grounds a reasonable suspicion of the police power of the state in some parts (to give but one example) of the African-American community.

3. Jewish persons in particular in NY are the subject of real and violent threats against their safety.

So while most Americans should not be paranoid and have no reasonable need to think very, very strongly about self-defense some communities have such reasons.
It is an American tradition (following English traditions we inherited) that such groups are not being "evil" when they defend themselves or consider doing so.
Christians agree with this right (it was shaped by the reflections of mostly Christian philosophers from Augustine to Locke) . . . though certainly one does not have to be a Christian to exercise it, agree with it, or deserve it.
It is the heritage of all, because all human beings are created in the image of God.

In particular ignoring the horrible pressure on some parts of the NY Jewish community is wrong. Putting it down to right wing paranoia is wrong. I am not personally in the communities that reasonably have such fears, but that does not mean I can remain silent when fellow citizens are badly served.

Continued

The sufferings of these folk matter to all good men and women.

It is not o.k. that some of our fellow citizens live in fear . . not fear whipped up by talk radio or cable television, but fear based on real threats and real violence. In fact, most people ignore the plight of these "other" communities so the murder rate in parts of LA continues sky-high and good men and women must pass through metal detectors when they go to worship. That is the problem.

This is a crying shame . . . and a blight on our republic. These threats and the fact that good people, good Americans, have to live in fear are the real scandal and issue.

Some "armed" rabbis trying to make a point are not the danger to a Republic founded (after all) by men of action like Washington. The base foes of an open society that drive good men to arms are the real issue.

Posted by: johnmarkreynolds | September 12, 2009 12:37 PM

If you trust in God, you are trusting that God's teaching, "you shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13), is the ultimate value you live by, not your ability to aim and shoot a gun.
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Years ago, I met this General. I do not remember if I even met him. I am extrapolating and juxtaposing from my information and recollections as best as I can.

The General is god fearing and believes in the ten commandments.

I asked him, if killing was a sin, how do you justify killing?

He responded, I do not kill and I do not ask my men to kill. He paused and rubbed the side of the face as if unable to decide whether he wants to continue the conversation.

The General breaks the silence after a long pause, almost an eternity by any measure, leans forward and in a deep labored breath whispers "I do not kill, I do not ask my men to kill, I give a man a reason to die".

I don't know how this women is a professor she doesn't understand the biblical interpretation from Hebrew to English or the Jewish persepective on this issue at all.

Thou Shall not Kill is incorrect translation in the Hebrew the word is "murder" not kill.

Thou shall not murder is the actual commandment found in the 10 commandments

Self-Defense is completely morally ethical in the Jewish religion and there are many talmudical discussions that bear this out.

Murder as in Cain & Able is not acceptable, self-defense or protecting another humans life is proper as in when Moses himself killed an Egyptian beating a Hebrew slave to death.

SR

"God, guns and goofy ideas" - perfect trifecta.

actually you can...
GOD told us not to kill...
He did not say we could not maim...

Ms. Thistlethwaite approach may be fine for her, but she seems to base it on an idea that is false. The Other/Dark Side has a say, and if their goals and objectives are not hers, and they are willing to use violence (or the clear threat thereof) to achieve them, what is her response? It can't happen to me, or if it does, I can't or will not be able to respond with egual force?

As to the Rabbis, they waited until the Warsaw Ghetto to stand and fight. Israel is determined not to make that mistake.

"Where do you put your trust? Do you put your trust in God, or in your gun? In your faith, or in your army? "

God trusts us to fight, if necessary, to be able to worship and protect our families. Guns are a way to do that. Swords to plowshares one day, plowshares to swords the next if need be.

God & Guns = Faith & Fear

Susan, sweetie, the Second Amendment to the Constitution is a sacred text in that it stands between me and you taking my Bible away from me.
About the time I let Quinn and Meacham or this Thistlewaite communist tell me how many things I can worship is about the time somebody will be prying something out of my .....cold.....dead.....hands.

I love it how people of faith have so much faith in god yet when they r sick or threatened have more faith in science and weaponry than in the protetion of a mystical diety in the clouds.

There is no god and this is proof that even the faithful back medicine and guns over the protection of the lord. Its bollocks.

Dear JUDEO-abe-CHRISTO's & Competition, et al:

Even though OSAMA BIN LADEN is dead [since June 2007] that "9.11", like what the "SHOA" is for JUDEO-abe-JU's via WW2; is the "SECULAR'S-SHOA/HOLOCAUST" so to speaketh 'Truth' (opposite MYTH).

O' al JUDEO-abe-ISLAMICs; Never forget: eat ye "SATANIc VERSING" hearts out, if any!

My belief has always been that God helps those who help themselves. It is illogical to believe my being armed, whether with a gun or a baseball bat, means I am worshiping either myself or a tool in place of God.

Thistlethwaite would evidently have us all sit on our hands and do absolutely nothing to protect ourselves or others in the face of danger. I would expect - and deserve - a harsh judgment from God if I had the ability to protect or save someone and failed to do so.

To repeat, I can't speak about the Kentucky pastor.

However, the rabbis' rhetoric stems from four decades of threats to synagogues and Jewish communities from lunatic Islamist terrorists.

Now, why is it that in New York City we have to live with this? Can you imagine what would have happened if churches, Christians/Catholics had been threatened this way for FOUR DECADES?

Well, yeah. Those responsible would have been caught, brought to trial.

So?

agree with Susan on the attitude of taking a gun to church may well lead to you shooting yourself both physically and spiritually.
As a Buddhist, I believe faith is most important alone. Faith does not need any guns to protect or nurture it, just courage.
"Courage is another word for Faith," my mentor; Daisaku Ikeda taught me.
If you feel the need for protection in your faith practice; carrying guns to church; perhaps how faith is being practiced may be the more emerging question to ask oneself.
As a Buddhist, I believe looking inward for all that exists is essential in understanding life and death, heaven and hell, good and evil.
Patrick

Yes I like much of what you say I have been reading abit about your faith it has helped me in my own walk. as a Chirstian

With that said I do respectfuly write the Head Buddhist is in a nation protected By defense With Gun's a Great Deal of the time. USA in Bloomington Indiana. I have seen Him from afar and would to meet him.

The problem with judging a statement by logic is that one person's logic isn't necessarily another person's. For instance, Susan, who has studied these things by the way, is arguing from Jesus' logic. (See Sermon On the Mount - Matthew 5,6.) After reading these chapters in Matthew's Gospel a logical person surely must conclude that Jesus' logic was different from that of most Americans, many Christians included, and certainly much of the world. When faced with a threat who would you rather rely on? The turn the other cheek logic of Jesus, or a gun. I wish I could reach for a gun but I am a follower of Jesus. Those who would choose the gun have made another choice.

And while it's true that the literal meaning of Thou Salt Not Kill is do not murder, Jesus expanded it to don't kill at all. Again each much make their own choice. Only I hope to spend an eternity with Jesus and those who choose to love rather than kill. Which is a much longer time than I expect to be here on earth.

Monty Keeling

Didn't the crusaders bow before their swords as crosses?

Didn't the arch lead the warriors of Israel in their genocide of the canaanites?

Hmm. Perhaps the comment is: you should not worship god and guns, but we can.

humbug.

hariaum

Guns or God? You Can't Worship Both
Some New York-area rabbis are planning to bring weapons to High Holy Day services this month to guard against terrorist threats. In June, a Kentucky pastor invited his congregation members to bring their firearms to church to celebrate the Second Amendment. Do weapons belong in worship? Should clergy be armed? Do the Ten Commandments trump the Second Amendment?
Pistol-packing rabbis or gun-toting Kentucky pastors demonstrate the choice faith always faces. Where do you put your trust? Do you put your trust in God, or in your gun? In your faith, or in your army?

Heck I support The Jews with self defense..The Book of ester tells of a King that knew all to well The need of Self Defense..as I understand it That is the part of the Bible That even Haymon Solomon as he was helping us to stop the Stamp act he understood as we as I nation our founding fathers new about..The King in the bible said From this day on the jews shall always have the right to defend them self. and More so be cause he understood The Money was worthless for through greed evil smiles through insanity evil sing that as I understand it why the jews understood to clear the bank of money owed every 7 years...Food or grain was worth more. Just think if Our leadership would have spoke up when this bail out thing came about he would have said Taxs for government would be Voluntary and we would clear the bank every 7 years...If I am wrong I wish some one would tell me....

Keep On them Rush Go Dave Ramsey

I agree with Susan on the attitude of taking a gun to church may well lead to you shooting yourself both physically and spiritually.

As a Buddhist, I believe faith is most important alone. Faith does not need any guns to protect or nurture it, just courage.

"Courage is another word for Faith," my mentor; Daisaku Ikeda taught me.

If you feel the need for protection in your faith practice; carrying guns to church; perhaps how faith is being practiced may be the more emerging question to ask oneself.

As a Buddhist, I believe looking inward for all that exists is essential in understanding life and death, heaven and hell, good and evil.

Patrick

There's an old joke about an invalid woman stuck in her house during a huge flood. The fire department comes by to evacuate her, but she tells them she'll be all right because she trusts in God. When the flood has consumed her first floor, a boat comes by and offers to evacuate her through her second-story window. She tells them the same. In a few hours, the woman has struggled her way up to the roof, when a rescue helicopter comes by. She repeats her story, that God will save her. Before nightfall, the woman drowns. After going through the metal detector at the Pearly Gates, she confronts God, saying, "I put my faith in you, as you demanded. Why didn't you save me?" God responds, "I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter. What exactly were you waiting for?"

I should think that a columnist from an esteemed theological seminary would want to avoid making an argument so foolish that it is 100% analogous to a well-known joke. When Jesus was walking the earth, after his final Passover, he didn't promise to save his disciples from harm through divine means, he told them to make sure they had enough swords with them. If he gave that advice to his personal friends, who are we to ignore it?

Guns or God? You Can't Worship Both
Some New York-area rabbis are planning to bring weapons to High Holy Day services this month to guard against terrorist threats. In June, a Kentucky pastor invited his congregation members to bring their firearms to church to celebrate the Second Amendment. Do weapons belong in worship? Should clergy be armed? Do the Ten Commandments trump the Second Amendment?
Pistol-packing rabbis or gun-toting Kentucky pastors demonstrate the choice faith always faces. Where do you put your trust? Do you put your trust in God, or in your gun? In your faith, or in your army?

You know Some thing, This is crazy to think anyone should ask Is Defense is wrong. National Defense starts with self defense.

Heck even those that built the Great wall of china understood that.

History shows each time a people deside Not to teach defense Some-one is just waiting to take them Over.

Thank God For Arms. because we can see just weak the respect for freedom speech to be the frist line of defense is..cap and trade meetings..then this thing with Joe Wilson...HE did a Great JOb Speeaking out and up for those that do not want Nationalism.

keep On them Rush...Thank God For the NRA

Self defense Helps Governments smaller and More Honest

Guns do not protect you. Drug dealers and cops get killed all the time and they're usually armed. Banks get robbed all the time, and are often protected by armed guards.

In a city near here a policeman was recently killed by his own weapon during a domestic dispute he was trying to mediate.

An armed criminal with a semiautomatic weapon can unload a clip (a very large clip, thanks to the NRA) into a crowd in seconds and easily kill half a dozen people. Because they have the element of surprise it is impossible to stop assassins from killing someone.

If everyone carried guns the number of deaths due to accidental discharge would be much higher. That, combined with the fact that you won't be able to stop the first five or six murders in most rampages, means the total number of deaths would increase.

Finally, there is no deterrent factor whatsoever for the disturbed individuals who go on rampages such as Virginia Tech or Columbine. These people are suicidal and intend to take their own lives if the police don't do it for them.

LOL at "JohnDinHouston" thinking that VA Tech students were better off being shot instead of having guns to defend themselves with.

Susan, I've read that the correct translation from the jewish Bible is: "You shall not murder". Of course to murder is different from to kill.

Why worship ANYTHING?

I completely agree that one cannot worship both God and guns. However, does using a tool mean that one somehow worships it? I use a car to get me to the store, even though I could walk the several miles each way even at my age. Does that mean that I worship my car? I wear a heavy coat during the winter to protect me from the weather, though I believe that God could keep me warm and dry if that were His will. Does that mean that I doubt God or worship my coat? Of course it doesn't. Most of us would consider anyone who seriously put forth either of these suggestions as being definitely part of some theological fringe. Yet, for some reason, people feel it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that if I make use of an inanimate object to protect my life and the lives of my family, that I doubt God and worship that object. Do they believe that this simple piece of steel and plastic is possessed by evil spirits? Why is my using it somehow more of a conflict of values than if I use the seat belts in my car or keep my vaccinations up to date?

Perhaps it's simply that some people choose to judge people, their spiritual beliefs and their intentions based on whether or not they carry a gun. Is everyone who carries a gun evil, or at least less moral than the person judging him or her, or is this true only for those persons who carry a gun but don't wear a uniform? Are people so judgmental that they automatically conclude that anyone who carries a gun is eagerly awaiting an opportunity to kill someone "in self defense"? Let me confess my "sin": I carry a handgun with me, at home, at work, shopping, drive and in church. It's just easier that attempting to decide when and where I might need it. If I were able to do that, I'd simply never go anywhere I'd need it. Why do I do it? For the simple reason that my life is a gift from God and I should do my best to protect it. The same goes for the lives of my family, my neighbors, my friends, and even my enemies.

I would never consider using a gun to protect mere property, no matter how valuable. Property can always be replaced; life is beyond my powers to replace. Everyone I know who routinely carries a gun (only a small minority of whom are police or active duty military) does everything in their power to avoid any trouble, paying attention to their surroundings, walking away from situations and willingly accepting insults.

Do people who believe that using a gun to protect one's life is wrong refuse to call the police when faced with danger, or do they insist that they police only send unarmed responders to their aid? I have yet to meet one who does. Yet what is it that they think that makes them so superior, their lives so much more valuable than the lives of everyone else that they believe they have the right to ask a total stranger to come to their aid and put his or her life at risk to protect their lives, something they are unwilling to do for themselves or for others?

Wow, this column does present a very dumb argument. I hope the writer isn't a teacher. As a few others have noted, by the logic of this column, if one relies on anything other than faith in God for something, than one is worshipping that thing. So what exactly is the standard for being employeed by Newsweek as a columnist? I'm breathing and I can talk, so where do I sign-up?

I wonder if Ms. Thistlethwaite stops at red lights or just blows through them having faith that another car will not plow into her? It was one armed security team member that put a stop to the carnage at New Life church in Colorado. The damage would have been ten fold if it were not for the security team member Ms Jeannie Assam. Ms. Assam had faith in the Lord that she could stop a nutcase.

Yeah, and do tell me how often those that "are packing heat" "bust a cap" in someone and save the day?

The childish reliance on the never to be proven "fact" that criminals won't go some place where they feel that people are armed is touching.

Question - Do you really think that the Virgina Tech shooter cared who had a gun when he started his deadly work in Blacksburg.

Fact - Criminals are typically not planners, nor the brightest bulbs in the world. They don't think ahead like non-criminals.

Fact - Your "evidence" that criminals don't attack in places where they are guns comes from surveying criminals - the same people who are given little or no credence when they testify in court because, guess what? They are criminals!

I've really pretty much given up trying to explain the obvious fallacies in the gun supporters logic - it's my fond hope that I won't be around when they turn this country back into Dodge City. But, I guess that's what you want, since your fantasies of using a gun to protect yourselves pretty much sound like they come from the movies.

Susan, how does it feel to have written "the silliest argument that I've seen on anything in a long time," as stated by your intellectual superior Ramesh Ponnuru? Looks like they're letting anyone into seminaries these days.

In the Hebrew, Exodus says, "Thou shalt not murder," not "Thou shalt not kill." Killing in self defense would not violate the commandment.

The idiocy of so-called "Faith" is at best a result of social indoctrination by ones family, tribe, and/or culture. It should be obvious that a Faithful Jew would be just as faithful a Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, or Christian Fundamentalist given different social engineering! The very small number of "converts" except those seeking improved social status in conquered cultures is minuscule; so placing ones faith in the hands of your religions dogmas is silly at best! Of course carrying weapons to religious services is begging for a disastrous encounters and far more dangerous to ones life and well-being!

Wow, Susan's logic gets obliterated by National Review:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ODM3MzRkMDQ3OTFhY2RjN2I4YjliYzUzZjI0NWM1ZDM=

as the old saying goes: "God did not make men equal, Col. Colt did."

Yes, and religious members of our armed forces should never carry guns. Nor should they ever take medicine, because that would show a lack of faith. Nor should a doctor that attends worship ever carry a pager in case someone has a heart attack - he should have faith that no one will have a heart attack while he is worshiping. And as a crazed shooter shoots up the congregation while a pastor stands helpless to help his congregation against the shooter because he left his gun at home in faith, he can at least say hey that lady at the Communist Post would be proud of me.

Lock your doors, lock it tight it's the new immoral right they wanna cleanse the home of the brave for the master race of the usa it's so beautiful on the street you won't know them like a pack of wolves in sheeps' clothing spreading wide, spreading far not just another false alarm it's so beautiful america -- i got my bible america -- i got my handgun america -- now i'm ready america -- home of the brave america - and the home of the slaves america -- now i'm ready but are you?

THOU SHALL NOT MURDER , i believe is the correct translation. your ideas led to 160000000 dead last century.

Americans follow the Republican Christian Family/Moral Values as we have for the pass 8 years. Now like it or not God is not blessing America because we are acting like those who killed Jesus. We see our Law Makers, Parents and even the Priest using God's name for sin and evil. Each person that uses God's name lately has disobeyed him. Since 2001 the United States has turned into Sodom and Gomorrah and President Obama will need God's help to stop this madness because the Churches are on the take.

'Greater love has no one than this,that he lay down his life for his friends'. be a shame to be helpless and watch someone else get wacked.

Dear Susan,

You trust in God to make the best decisions possible. Having faith does not mean (set back and do nothing and think that God will do everything for you.) You can believe in God, and utilize your second amendment rights at the same time. You can ask God to give you good judgement in its use. Some times good aim may be in order. The choice is yours and the action is yours.

If you're going to invoke history in making an argument, the sad facts are that those who were peaceful and went with the flow of events without conflict are not remembered today. We remember those who stood their ground and prevailed, because they survived to tell their story.

Psalm 144:

1Praise be to the Lord my Rock,

who trains my hands for war,

my fingers for battle.

2He is my loving God and my fortress,

my stronghold and my deliverer,

my shield, in whom I take refuge,

who subdues peoplesa under me.

Perhaps the answer is a bit more complex than black and white, but falls in a shade of gray?

I guess the Israelis have determined it is better to shoot than to rely on God to save you. What did God do for the Jews during WWII?

I can see a Jewish service in today's world and in a major metropolitan area being concerned about security. Having everyone armed, no. As a life long gun owner, hunter etc and a career military man I can tell you that not everyone should carry or even be close to a weapon (gun). To answer your question about trusting in God or a gun I can tell you that God gave us the ability to reason and to take care of ourselves. I do not aske God to watch over me I suspect that he made me responsible for myself and that he has a lot more important things to do than watch over an old balding pot-bellied man. So taking his lead I try to do the best to take care of my family and myself. I must also remind you that in the original translation of the bible from both the Greek transcripts and those Hebrew that have been found Exodus 20:13 was translated as Thou shall not "murder". That is a great deal different from killing to protect oneself or one's family. So please if you are trying to justify your distaste for the 2nd Admendment at least get your arguements in order. I doubt that many of us that own guys "live by the sword" though at one time as a soldier I did I assure that in retirement I do not. King David was a superior soldier I believe.

As Sinclair Lewis so correctly stated: "when facism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross".

People who follow Jesus don't own guns. Christians might, but there's really no connection between Jesus and Christianity anymore (if there ever was).

An Active Shooter (a spree murderer) is usually "finished" with his murder spree in two-to-three MINUTES. Active Shooters favor "UNARMED VICTIM ZONES". Think about it.

Police response in less than three minutes from the beginning of an "incident" is nearly impossible.

When the "bad thing" happens, those involved will be on their own to solve the problem, to live or die. That is the reality of dealing with an Active Shooter.

If more "good citizens" were armed (and trained), there would be fewer victims of criminal assaults. Ultimately, we are responsible for our personal protection, the government cannot be with us every moment and I do not want them with me every moment.

There is nothing wrong with guns in the hands of people who are trained in the use of these tools of protection. The concept that a holstered pistol is going to "go off" all by it self is stupid. The carrying of tools for personal protection does not make one a worshipper of the tools.

A couple of guys robbed a church on Sunday morning. Collected wallets and purses. There were a couple of troopers at church that morning. Nobody got shot. They couldn't outrun the radio and had a hard time in jail. You used to hold up banks with guns and now you use other tools.

Susan,

Putting the Kentucky pastor and the rabbis in the same category is akin to uniting the Janjaweed with the National Guard. After all both are armed.

The problem of Muslim terrorist threats against synagogues, Jews in predominantly Jewish neighborhoods has been going on for decades. Frankly, people are sick, tired, and disgusted with being targeted.

A few years ago, some people, including rabbis began stating that they intended to defend themselves, and not only during the High Holy Days. They do not want their congregations to be burdened all year with the cost of paying for private security and they don't want to be under siege by police.

The synagogue I occasionally attend declined police protection this year. This resulted in a meeting with the chief, followed by two more, in which she and her committee were finally persuaded to give in.

The Congregation, a gentle enough bunch, was not happy from what I hear. Enough is enough as this brilliant young rabbi declared in her email. Jews, like everyone else, have enough problems living day to day without being threatened by Muslim terrorists. However, the rabbis arming themselves is not the right way, as they very well know since the announcement was rhetoric.

We Jews, cultural and observant, need to organize, as taxpayers. We need to stage demonstrations demanding that those who threaten us be caught, tried, and jailed, if convicted. As this discussion continues within the community, I am hopeful that this will occur.

We Jews do not need rabbis speaking out in this way. We need them to unite us. When we finally get it together, a few million of us might celebrate the High Holy days in front of City Hall. 2010 would be a good year to begin this new tradition.

Your problem, Susan, should not be with the rabbis, who are desperate, but with American Jews, whose lives have been threatened for decades by Islamist extremists.

Hello Susan,

It may be philosophically just to say that guns and God cannot both be worshiped, but in practical terms they can and are, and have been. It is obvious the alignment between so called 'fundamentalist' sects with warfare and violence. A match made in heaven.

I am of the Christian background that following Jesus meant an internal and external rejection of violence, hatred, fear, destruction, etc., and an embracing of love, forgiveness, pacifism and creationism. Not so for the "fundamentalist" and evangelical crowd. No problem with the death penalty, three strikes, preemptive warfare and racism. They fully embrace the Old Testament version of God. Much easier to do, too, than stick to Jesus' hard road. Love thy neighbor? Hell no. Shoot the bastard.

Call 'em Jews, as far as I can tell, but aberrations of that course too. Scarier by far. Bible in one hand and firearm in the other. Not God. Anti-God, but a true believer that it is God. Devil seeps in to the rational mind and poof, it has offed to the Dark Side.

Hello Jackburton1,

I think that you misunderstand Calsailors point, though it is surprising. From his post:

"The god in your life is that which is the center around which everything else is structured (Tillich called it the "ground of being", along with the metaphor of what which grounds, or orientates one.)"

Guns can be, (and are for some), the central focus in life, or are a critical aspect or tool in that central core. It may not be that a gun owner might confuse his Glock with God the Supreme Creative Being, (and so name his 9mm Glod the Father, perhaps? :-) Though there are certainly twisters that might. )

America is currently killing in muslim countries half a world away, using guns yes but drones and laser guided missiles, striking at the heart of what we call insurgencies and terrorist organization but what townspeople there call home. A military rife with evangelism is killing "for democracy, (and the True God)", sent by an evangelical neo-con President singing the mantra "WMD's, WMD's,...

Congregations are emboldened. Conservative "fundamentalists" are banging drums and disrupting town hall meetings certain that the evils of socialism are creeping in to destroy us. Some show up with AK-47's.

Not funny. I believe in the Second Amendment, but I DO NOT believe in the rights of loon bins to have a gun in THEIR hands.

Hello Calsailor,

I agree that we all find something to call 'god' in our lives and make it central. I enjoyed Tillich's "ground of being". It becomes the raison 'd etre in a life, the central core or a part of it, and fundamental to an individuals definition of self. Ego.

One question, then. Your statement: "We really need to challenge all false gods in our lives and those around us who have them, ..."

What defines if a god is "false", then, but for anothers perspective and paradigm? In other words, if someone finds their ground of being in the art of selling shoes, and dedicate their whole life to that pursuit, what makes that 'god' of theirs false?

I think it is the judgment of others who hold the arrogant position that their god is the True God.

This belief is well more dangerous than even your "amateur equipped with weapons".

Chris sez:

In my experience, it seems to me that over the last 30 years or so, for more and more people, their god is weapons.

Jack replies:

Well, in MY experience with thousands of actual gun owners of all kinds over many decades in many states I have never found one who thinks their gun(s) is a substitute for God. But I am dealing with real people here, not stereotypes.

Can some few people get obsessed with guns. Of course. The same as some can get obsessed with their stamp collection, their toy trains, their work, their girlfriend, or even, sad to say, with their religion.

And Jim Jones killed far more people with his preaching than he ever could have with a gun.

Susan:

Paul Tillich, the great 20th century Protestant theologian made the same point when he said: Everyone has a god. The god in your life is that which is the center around which everything else is structured (Tillich called it the "ground of being", along with the metaphor of what which grounds, or orientates one.)

The question is what that god is in each of our lives. No matter what we say, it is our actions that actually demonstrate what our god is. For some, it might be their football team, or their college, or community, or ethnic background, but just because one SAYS they are "Christian" or "a Jew" or "a Muslim", if by their actions they put something higher than the God the claim to believe in, their actions will point out that discrepancy.

In my experience, it seems to me that over the last 30 years or so, for more and more people, their god is weapons. And I agree, that idolization of weapons is good neither for the individual who is seduced into idolatry with such beliefs, or to the society that gives into our fears, symbolized by the reliance for safety on weapons. We really need to challenge all false gods in our lives and those around us who have them, especially, in these dangerous times, those who worship weapons, and thus, make us all less safe.

The only worse thing than an unarmed person, is an amateur equipped with weapons.

Pr chris