Non! Don't Ban the Burqa in the U.S.

In April 09, you wrote about Turkey moving into a religious totalitarian regime:

"It was my observation that far more Turkish women were wearing headscarves and religious dress than when I had visited Turkey more than a decade ago. As one Turkish businessman observed to me about his university-age daughter, "They want to put a headscarf on her mind." He is thinking about sending his daughter to the United States to complete her education."

(BTW, wearing a headscarf in a Turkish university is ILLEGAL, not REQUIRED as your previous article sounded like.)

Headscarf in Turkey= religious extremism, country moving into a totalitarian regime
Headscarf in the USA = religious pluralism, a sign of healthy democracy.

Is this the formula you are proposing?
Or women with headscarves are tolerable as long as they are a minority in the society?

Currently, women throughout America enjoy the right to dress as they wish, given some limitations, under the law.Muslim women in America also have that right.

Therefore, it is their choice to dress as they please. If a Muslim woman choses to remove her veil that is her decision. If she decides to keep it on because she believes, and this is the point that all those who've commented thus far have missed, that she is following her religion by only allowing her husband, blood relatives and other women see her face, then she is making her choice.

It is not the place of non-Muslims to say what Muslim women can and cannot wear. Muslim women are not going around demanding that bikini clad women on beaches cover themselves, are they?

When you are a member of a particular religion you have the right to speak on its behalf because you believe in its doctrine, no matter how you interpret its teachings.

When you're outside of the religion you don't have that right because you neither believe in it nor understand its doctrine.

Someone who is illiterate can run around calling people to illiteracy because he/she feels its the key to happiness. But what does he/she know about the literate person? Nothing.

In conclusion, there are women who feel it is perfectly normal to wear a bikini on the beach. They were born and raised that way. And there are women who would never be caught dead in a bikini. They were born and raised that way.

Forcing women or men to dress a certain way in America is currently against the law. Therefore either the law would have to be changed or deport all Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, Nuns, Priests, Rabbis and anyone else who doesn't live up to the "ideal" dress code and life would be "perfectly homogeneous".

Western imperialism has many faces...

Ms. Thiselwaitesays:
“If the quality of women's lives is a concern to the French President, then he should consider that traditional Muslim women in France would be forced to remain indoors if their preferred dress is banned.”

The last phrase should have read “if their male relatives preferred mode of dress is banned”. You no doubt had heard of women killed by their fathers and husbands in Canada and Texas and elsewhere on this continent simply for not wearing the Hijab. That is what Mr. Sarkozy means the veil is a symbol of enslavement. The Burqa or Niqab are not ordained by the Muslim religious law (Sharia). The Hijab, on the other hand, which is a rag that covers the the
hair and hands, is religiously sanctioned to Muslim women, but a cap and a turtle neck would be as Sharia compliant. The real purpose is to make a statement that “We are different, superior and refuse to be identified with you and your culture”. This is in line with the supremacy ideology as reaffirmed throughout the Quran and institutionalized in the Dhimmi laws called Umar Pact that govern non-Muslims living in societies controlled by Muslims.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-pact-of-umar.htm

Ms. Thiselwaite says:
“If the quality of women's lives is a concern to the French President, then he should consider that traditional Muslim women in France would be forced to remain indoors if their preferred dress is banned.”

The last phrase should have read “if their male relatives preferred mode of dress is banned”. You no doubt had heard of women killed by their fathers and husbands in Canada and Texas and elsewhere on this continent simply for not wearing the Hijab. That is what Mr. Sarkozy means the veil is a symbol of enslavement. The Burqa or Niqab are not ordained by the Muslim religious law (Sharia). The Hijab, on the other hand, which is a rag that covers the the face and hands, is religiously sanctioned to Muslim women, but a cap and a turtle neck would be as Sharia compliant. The real purpose is to make a statement that “We are different, superior and refuse to be identified with you and your culture”. This is in line with the supremacy ideology as reaffirmed throughout the Quran and institutionalized in the Dhimmi laws called Umar Pact that govern non-Muslims living in societies controlled by Muslims.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-pact-of-umar.htm

Thank alot! Oh, if only YOU and all men were compelled to wear this thing! Then, I'm sure it would be banned as inhuman...what's lawful and reasonable for one would seem entirely different if others were compelled to live with the consequences also...
Why not start wearing your own burka today in solidarity? Go ahead, we're waiting...

LIVEANDLOVE - "So the UNVIELING of the Burka's does not mean the unvailing of their [IMPORTED Religion;Islam NOT MADE IN AMERICA, aka imported]."

um...the only religion "made in America" are Narive American spiritual beliefs. Every other religion has been "imported." Islam, Christianity, and Judism all come from the Middle East.

We can not legislate what one decides to wear in their free will. But there are public safety requirements that allows law enforcement bodies to require individuals to clearly identify them during vehicle search, access to secure area, etc. Penalty should be primarily financial with increasing penalty with each non compliance and off course loss of previledge to access secure areas.

We have allowed Catholic Nuns to wear gurbs that show their face only. That satisfies Islamic religous requirements as well.

Parallel solution will be to require minimum education for all citizens. It will start to bring out the women imprisoned in their own home.

Are you living in the real world? Or a protected, wealthy environment where you go to nice cocktail parties, and your kids elite schools, and all you know are other well-educated, respectful, polite folks. Come down to earth a bit and visit our other world...I cannot believe you defend the burka! How would your precious cocktail parties flow, if all the women guests were wering them, your children's school, your workplace...go ahead, tell me!
I suppose you willingly allow any heinous practice and its expression in our public places...Is there any practice you would ban? For Heaven's sake! We forbid every inhuman thing, from cock-fighting, dog-fighting, protect every species, protect children and ban drugs that may harm...yet clothe this practice in religion and everyone it all for it. Most of these commentators will not be running into hordes of women such as these on their streets as so feel quite comfortable with the occasional apparition...Thanks alot all you high-minded folks...You are safe knowing you won't have to really experience much of this practice,eh?

Comparison Burqa with My Cross and My Clerical Collar.Please....,please....What correlation ?

*The only people who should decided whether to wear the burqa or not are muslim women*Yes,correct.But,only one question;
Do muslim women have right to choose ?

Look at Islamic Republic Iran.
Look at Saudi Arabia.
Look at Afghanistan.

Liberte/Liberty,Egalite/Equality,Sororite/Sisterhood

-Liberty means *Right to Choose*,*Right to Divorce* and Freedom,not Black Cage.
-Equality means *Woman-Man Equality*
-Sisterhood means *Women Rights* and *Woman Dignity*

And, bright laughter to you, too, JJ.

How's that 'living and loving' going?

Not so well, it seems, or did you have a little mistake with your cornflakes this morning? :)

I have some practical concerns about banning the burqa:
1. How to enforce this low and how to punish offenders? If you catch a woman wearing burqa do you punish her (fine, jail?) or her husband/father/brother?
2. Should everybody be banned from wearing burqa or only Muslim women?
3. Is there going to be a legal definition of what exactly a burqa is? We don’t want to arrest somebody who likes to wear baggy, black clothes.

I mean, when does it stop being a garment you wear, and start being a *curtain* that *wears you?* *Takes away* our humanity? Becomes a portable *prison?*

I mean, what if, maybe, somewhere between hijab and a burqua, a certain *line* is crossed for the public institutions of a Western society: that line being somewhere between *allowing a religious form of dress,* and *letting some dudes throw a curtain over young women and call it 'freedom.'

Maybe the line for America is, 'Everyone's welcome, but you gotta *be* here. Bring a face. It'll be great.'

I think, ALSTL, that America does *fine* with the means of openness and pluralism as regards not becoming enablers of isolated communities trying to send kids to school without a *face,* ...in fact, if you're a religious minority, the school board's usually quite *too* picky about suppressing even small signs of non-Judeo-Christianity.

I've been a strong supporter of allowing hijab wherever appropriate... It's possible I just see the line as somewhere around using public money to let parents and communities decide whether a young woman in a free country should be denied a *face.*

What is the real religious requirement from Islam vs. what is "man made" rituals to control their daughter / wife need to be studied before we start protecting practices by a minority group? Mohammeds wife Khadija was a business women, how did she conduct business if she was covered head to toe?

Islam requires convering the hair and modes clothing in line with how Mariam (Mary) used to dress. There is no requirement to cover the face. It is a "man" made trap to control their daughters and sisters.

I wonder if Ms Brooks has ever been beaten by a radical Muslim because she was seen in public without her proper attire.

It is fascinating to watch the left defend the misogynistic nature of Islam as soon as Obama embraces it.

'LiveandLove' is the latest screen name of a repeatedly-banned spammer, here. AKA 'JJ.' Who seems to do nothing but 'advertise his religion' whatever the topic. Especially if a substantive conversation is going on.

Anyway, all that aside, American adults have the right to put on whatever garments they like, though there's some discussion how small is too small a bikini or whatever, (that's amusing to me, actually) ...American *schoolkids* have the right to an education in a religiously-neutral environment, unhampered by some religion's demand they do it all through a peephole.

LIVEANDLOVE: First of all, it is the same God as yours, and the reason behind the burka is modesty. If women chose to wear it, it should be their choice--please don't assume it is always out of fear. This is by no means advertising the religion--if you feel advertising ones religion should be banned, then in the same respect, yarmulkes and crosses should be banned.

Isn't America about individuality? Why on earth should these women feel the need to blend in, and deny themselves something that they feel makes them whole??

And please, educate yourself on other religions before accusing one of STEALING from another. Your statement is just ignorant.

Having spent quite a bit of time traveling through France and Morocco, I find women wearing burqas quite disturbing because there is really no reason to have a human being walking in public completely covered up because of a few men's paranoia.

LiveandLove,

It's too bad that your rambling messes ALWAYS take up too much space.

Let's put it this way, shahidnabi:

All factors of social conformity and consumerism and the rest aside: in America, we have free *expression* for all individuals, and groups. We're not, any more than France is, in the business of rubber-stamping, with public schools and institutions, other cultures' notions that women are 'concubines' (or less-abstract words') if they don't *conceal* themselves.

Big difference.

We use the words 'reasonable accomodation.'

"Religious pluralism" my foot.

I love it when hippies think that any woman who actually had a sliver of "free choice" would CHOOSE to don a swathe of fabric that completely eliminates her being.

The burqua, the niquab, etc. should be banned in any Western country that sees fit to do so for exactly the same reason polygamy is banned in the U.S. If you read the legal opinions banning polygamy (after the late 1890s), most of the reasoning is to protect women who are faced with false choices - be 18 and marry a 45 y/o man as his 4th wife or be condemned by everyone you know.

I hate this discussion. If Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite had spent even 5 minutes in a country like Saudi Arabia talking to normal women (not those privileged enough to be able to travel to Western countries), she'd hear the awful stories of their false "choices." I'd refer her to the Human Rights Watch report on the mahram topic [assuming she even knows what that is]. Can a woman CHOOSE to submit herself to a male guardian when she doesn't actually have that choice under the rule of law. Or I'd refer her to try to get a visa into Riyadh and ask some women herself. Been there. Did it. And it's BS like this that makes "religious pluralism" get a bad name.

Ridiculous.

Thistlethwaite is pleading for religious tolerance (that's easy) without sufficiently delineating the limits of that tolerance (that's hard).

A reasonable argument can be made, I think, that Burqas should be as legal as a Halloween ghost costume, as long as whomever wears the Burqa consents to immediately remove the garment should police or other law enforcement ask -- for the purpose of identifying the Burqa's wearer. Since the circumstances of such an event may preclude privacy, the Burqa's wearer should not demand privacy in removing the garment.

One other thought: Thistlethwaite seems unaware of the sociopolitical differences between France and America at the moment. France has for decades now had a steady stream of Muslim immigrants, some of whom are self-ghettoizing into Moroccan or Algerian neighborhoods, which is not necessarily good for social stability. France has the largest population of Muslims in Europe. France also has the largest population of Jews. On a related subject, synagogue vandalism is on the rise there. In short, France is not merely grappling with religious expression -- it is also grappling with issues of cultural assimilation that America has the luxury of ignoring.

shahidnabi: "you people speak about the uplifting of the women but actually you have degraded her body and demoralized her soul.
women folk in the western countries are mere tool in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketers."

Excuse me, sir. I happen to be more than that. We'll talk about who's a tool, later.

"you people have degraded her to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies."

I hate to point this out, but being a 'society butterfly' isn't considered to be similar to being a 'concubine.' Actually, it's the people who are obsessive about modesty in this society who tend to treat women *as* concubines.

" islamic veil speaks of her liberty, modesty and shyness.
it protects her from being molested and prevents her chastity."

In America, no one has the right to *molest* you if you walk down the street *stark naked.* (We do have our own modesty standards, and some men are boors, but it's not on the women to cover up or be blamed if men treat them as less than human.)

"got u"

Not exactly, sport. :)

That said, I understand what the veil and such can mean to Muslim women. I dress quite 'modestly,' myself, but not cause I believe what you do about men being 'entitled' to whatever they see.

Or helpless in the face of my unbound hair. The men I like, when I do, are stronger than that. :)

Respect's about the *heart and mind,* not the wrapper it comes in.

There are a few problems here:

Even if you are arguing that the Burqa is a religious symbol, France has banned wearing of other religious items in public schools as well. Public institutions should be free of religion. So whether you agree with it or not, you ae wrong to imply it is an attack against the Burgqa or Islam - crosses cannot be worn either in schools.

The second thing is your point about "The only people who should decided whether to wear the burqa or not are Muslim women". You are correct. The problem is that they do not choose. Either it is directly forced upon them by family, or they make the "choice" themselves, but not freely. If it is something drilled into you from birth, and fear has been instilled in you etc., it is not a free choice.

While I may not agree with the government banning it, there are 2 things to consider - what about countries who go the opposite way and require it? We certainly don't say anything about it to Saudi Arabia, no we consider them our closest arab ally. Surely you cannot think it is worse to ban it than to require it, if your point is freedom? Secondly, the simply fact that it is required of women and not of men is what makes it so wrong. You cannot deny it is "a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement" for that reason alone. If it was truly an issue of protection, modesty, or religion, all muslims would feel compelled to wear it.

Men who cannot control themselves because a woman shows her hair, face, arm etc. are the problem, not the woman. They should have to wear blindfolds to keep them from seeing, not force the woman to wear something that really is a burden on her and a hardship to go about daily life in.

As a citizen in France you are French first and everything else second. It is still the only country where if you can prove in an exam that you are more "French" than your home country they will extend citizenship to you. Being French is the common unifier for the country and they enforce it immediately.

By contrast in the US we could care less how you dress. The reality is that the kids of parents who choose to wear this, will reject it because they are raised here and thus American. You can't fight US culture and win. It is the power of cultural imperialism and it is a good thing, otherwise we would be a collection of tribes.

Sarkozy, as you have said that muslim hijab or burqa is not ther sign of religion but of subversive.
you speak of the uplifting the women folk in your state, let me clarify you what you mean by that,

you people speak about the uplifting of the women but actually you have degraded her body and demoralized her soul.
women folk in the western countries are mere tool in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketers.

you people have degraded her to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies.

islamic veil speaks of her liberty, modesty and shyness.
it protects her from being molested and prevents her chastity.

got u