Destroying the World to Save It: The Awful Truth About Religion in 2009

"this dangerous form of religion is the attempt to bring about the end of the world in order to save the world--except the world will cease to exist in the process"

In my opinion, this is a correct assessment of a reactionary impulse taking place almost universally in human culture. An old world is ceasing to exist and many people are resisting this essential evolution. Churches throughout the world are beginning to recognize that they are unable to represent the spiritual impulses arising in educated and experienced parts of their respective populations. These impulses are leaving the churches, and the old world, behind. Fear fills a vacuum left by the displaced systems of faith. The fearful revolt. Only new, culturally articulated forms can replace the old. They will eventually materialize, but probably not in our lifetimes. Until then the world will just have to cope.

SPELL TO CURSE SOMEONE LIKE THE CURRENT POPE

By: Love Spellcaster

Materials Required:

Lemon – 1
Black candle
Nails – 9
Cursing oil
Black bowl
Picture of the person to be cursed

Method:

This curse is popularly known as the lemon curse as it involves the use of a lemon. Have the candle lit using matches only. Once this is done, slit the lemon down in the middle so that it forms two equal halves. On the surface of one of the lemons place the picture of the one that you wish to curse. Then focus on the flame of the candle and build up your internal energy. As your anger at that person begins to rise, poke the needles on to the surface of the lemon one by one. When you have reached the last and final nail, place the lemon in the black colored bowl and pour the cursing oil over the lemon. Squeeze the remaining half of the lemon over the cursing oil and then poke the last nail on the person’s picture.

Set up an altar somewhere in your room and place the bowl on the altar. Wait for the lemon to rot. With each passing day, the curse will begin to work. When you are ready or you feel that the person has reformed, you may dispose the lemon by throwing it in the sea or river.

Article Source: http://www.spells4free.com

We are at war with theocratic evangelical fundamentalists, Mormons, and neocon Catholics for our religious freedoms. JRLAWLESS is the epitome of the enemy.

It will be ironic if we will ultimately need to exercise the cherished neocon/neochristian Second Amendment rights to protect the First.

Jrrlawless

You cannot even make a simple statement of your beliefs without slandering gay people. Your death wish towards gay people, and that is EXACTLY what it is, is an integral part of your religion, which is not, after all, about love.

Christianity is about the teachings of Christ, and not about the words that you have sought to put into Christ's mouth.

Agape Love--a love that is the result of the spirit of Yahweh God living and guiding an individual. One may exhibit eros love, philo love or even storsy love from a purely physical attribute. Once again your liberal left wing leanings has surfaced. You and so many of the social gospel left wing occupants want to raise the flag of love at the same time endorsing the post modern relatavistic no absolutes philosophy so prevalent within our society.

God never called on us to show love while abandoning the values of his inspired and inerrant Word. As I have pointed out before, those who teach should be wary of their speech as, according to the Apostle James, will be judged more harshly than the rest of us. Just because a view point is considered unpopular in our society does not make it wrong. The right for a women to be a baby killer, or homosexuals to viewed with respect, or Muslims, who have killed more Christians than all other groups combined, be viewed as acceptable, still is a value position that all real and sincere Christians should fight against.

As I have pointed out before, I am no fool, Honor student, listed in 2004 Who's Who in two year colleges, and soon to complete MDIV with a GPA=3.75. I do not develop my points from idleness or poor foundations. These are points that need to be proclaimed from the highest mountain tops. The Bible is still true, Hell is really hot, and eternity is a a very long time.

I mean, let's make one thing very clear. This is not about *that* Hitlerjungen forgiving *me* for anything, cause whatever sob story *he's* got, I assure you his little 'Society' did worse to me, and I didn't raise no Heils.

Still you listen to *him* when he speaks the same line about a lfe, namely *mine*, which he doesn't know.

Maybe Il Papa ought to listen to *me* about 'foprgiveness.'

Stop.

Don't put on a show of 'forgiving' people for being raped by your boys and all.

Don't blame queers you have this twisted thing about making priests to prove no one is non-straight, and call the free people 'objectively-disordered,' as if you had ever learned your own pud about *objectivity.*

I fairly publicly said I'd respect Catholic titles when the Pope apologized for the Inquisition.

In a weaselly way, JPII did. But I was as good as my word.

This man Raztey went out of his way to *undo* that while canonizing poor old Karol.

Forgiveness?

Stop it.

Stop treating me like the same kind of eedjit the people you kick upstairs to the vatican did.

Stop treating those not protected by as loud a mouth as mine as if it's all just press and not a systemic disease and *organized crime.*

(And don't act so superior, either, Protestants, I see plenty of your wreckage, too. )

This is not, though, about some Pope 'forgiving me.'

This is about all the people he wants to redouble the hurt on. And if pain is a virtue in his world, well, what was done to *me* wasn't enough to make me knuckle under to social pressure.

Did kind of smart, if I do say, though.

Herr Ratzinger.

"I often wonder, do you think that the Pope will get around to forgiving gay people within the next century or so? Perhaps allow sex and race bias to be swept from the Vatican as well?"

Hey... *he's* the one in the religion all big on forgiveness, you know.

It's his own darn fault if forgiving *him* ain't the top of the list of people he incites the torture of.

But maybe if he asks nicely.

Actually, the Pope before him apologized for the tortures of the Inquisition, and Mr. Red Pradas, there, *rescinded* that 'infallible 'forgiveness.'

I'm guessing someone ain't there yet.

" CCNL
Tis obvious the spell I purchased to daintify Paganplace did not work. Darn that witch, she promised me it would work like a charm. Now I will have to resort to my box of voodoo dolls!!! Hmmm, where did I put that box of pins??"

Gonna take a bit more imagination to figure me out.

Wanna know who can end a Dark Age..

Ask Boccacio.

I can feel it in the air tonight... :)

KEN16 --

I consider all of the period during which the Holy Roman Emperor and later, the Vatican, held sway over civilization to be "dark". From the 'officially proclaimed' collapse of Rome to well-past the Spanish Inquisition. I should have made that clearer, though I believe it to be obvious.

As for Galileo, I believe the Catholic Apologists are responsible for a lot of what you repeat here. He was, in fact, badly abused and suffered such at the hands of the church centuries past his death. Civilization, as well, suffered on the whole.

You say "The church bent over backward to give Galileo a graceful exit from the controversy..." That is simply not true, unless one considers issuing an edict to abandon reason and kiss the Papal Ring to be 'bending over backwards'.

I often wonder, do you think that the Pope will get around to forgiving gay people within the next century or so? Perhaps allow sex and race bias to be swept from the Vatican as well?

Regardless -- to crawl beyond our interesting tete-a-tete for a moment -- what I am most interested in here is the apparent manifestation of that peculiar form of denial we Americans are more recently famous for.

From the all-too-American case of Casey Anthony and her 'missing' daughter, to the polished pews of a middle age, upper-middle class, 'Reverend' Thistlethwaite with her eyes a-shine with God's sweet love (or is it more blissfully enshrouded, securely ensconced naivety), we Americans of late seem to practice denial on the grandest of scales.

Bush has elevated denial to an art form in this country and it seems those that practice it well are among his greatest supporters.

Christianity and most religions in general require one to abandon reason and embrace denial -- no matter how you slice it.

As the light of reason and discovery helps more and more of us to see the real magic of the universe, and to realize that to be born and die a human being is as wonderful and as natural as sunshine -- religions such as Christianity and their devotees will increasingly find the need to embrace even more denial, to become more opaque -- and thus "darker".

Denying that Galileo was bullied by religionists into denying his discoveries is precisely the act of denial I am taking about.

Hmmm, and the "thumptations" continue.

So lets see: The referenced OT passages are so mythical/fictional in nature, one winces at their publication i.e. Jewish scribes/priests and prophets/fortune tellers writing to impress the Jewish peasants and to keep them giving at the temple.

And then there is John 3: 17-18

As per Father Raymond Brown, NT and RCC approved exegete:

" [The Gospel according to John. Anchor Bible 20. pp. 135-37] provides a typically cautious introduction to these issues in general and this case in particular:

Historicity
When we try to think of this scene occurring in the ministry of Jesus, there are many problems that must be faced, not the least of which is setting.

Matt 1:23

Bruce Chilton

"In Rabbi Jesus: An Intimate Biography (2000), Chilton develops the idea of Jesus as a mamzer; someone whose irregular birth circumstances result in their exclusion from full participation in the life of the community. He argues for the natural paternity of Joseph and finds no need for a miraculous conception. In his subsequent reconstruction of Jesus' life, Chilton suggests that this sustained personal experience of exclusion played a major role in Jesus' self-identity, his concept of God and his spiritual quest."

Gerd Lüdemann

"Lüdemann [Jesus, 122-24] presents four (4) reasons for regarding the miraculous conception of Jesus as unhistorical: (1) Numerous parallels in the history of religion; (2) it represents a rare and late NT tradition; (3) Synoptic descriptions of Jesus' relations with his family are inconsistent with such an event; and (4) scientific considerations.

Lüdemann [Jesus, 261-63] discounts Luke's account as a legend deriving from Jewish Hellenistic circles that were concerned to hold together the procreation of the Spirit, the authentic sonship of the Messiah and the virginal conception.

John P.Meier

"Meier [Marginal Jew I,220-22] discusses the virginal conception as part of his larger chapter on Jesus' origins. He earlier notes that both infancy narratives "seem to be largely the product of Christian reflection on the salvific meaning of Jesus Christ in the light of OT prophecies (p. 213).

Tis obvious the spell I purchased to daintify Paganplace did not work. Darn that witch, she promised me it would work like a charm. Now I will have to resort to my box of voodoo dolls!!! Hmmm, where did I put that box of pins??

(Also, this is not to say I'm against earth-crossing asteroid defense: fact is, as a species, I would say we have an exceptionally-difficult time coping with thinking about our own and others' genitals.

However. We are very good at throwing things at other things. *kissing fingers* Beautiful. Let's fend off some space rocks. It's cool, constructive, something to do, cheaper than screwing up the world cause you don't like queers by several orders of magnitude, and...

Fun for the whole family.

Let's play to the strengths, here.

and, if you still think you need to rid the world of spells to reconcile with your own member, CCNL,

Well, I'm sure that, given a little hope for the future and expectation of some societal decency, welll

You can get a hold of it.

*laugh* That's a good one, Concerned Christian.

Your idea of 'holding out for results' is 'continuing to do the obviously-destructive thing as long as no one disproves our divine claim to enough decimal places, yet demanding 'absolute proof' before you'll admit that kicking the crap out of the *literally actually downtrodden is never even one in ten thousand times.... OK!'

You claim to be 'beyond superstition' 'Concerned Christian Now Liberated,' but all I see out of you is the worst of *both* worlds.

Or.

A Christian Fundie.

You know you're neither non-Christian nor in any way 'liberated,' you're just scared of everything that is not you.

Same as any of them.

You feel you're brave posing as a strawman attacking all religion, but, the way you freak about 'masturbation,' it's clear.

You're afraid of life and sex and freedom and the future, Heh. And me and my 'spells' you keep imagining are part of your world of shame, authority, and control ....the same as the worst of em.

"Spells.' Keep looking at em, genius. I *told* you I would give you due attention.

Would you like to whine more about 'spells?'

You chose what experience to have here.

Let me dispel something, though.

Someone taught you a 'Gos-spell,' 'God's spell'

..had power over you. And that through it, you could have power over others.

Through this, you thought that 'atheisticisticnes' would give you power over *everyone,* but, no.

You think you know from 'spells.'

I dis your spell And their spell, and even any spell you spun around *me.*

*clap.*

I dispell.

*grabbing your attention a moment.*

This won't take if you crawl back in your cage and claim to be 'free' while parroting the same old stuff.

If there's anything good in there, friend-that-could be...

It ain't about the bars.

You. Don't. Own. Nobody.

Never mind the world or the end thereof.

I'm sure this comes as a wondrous relief to you, there, big guy.

Now.

Would you like t continue mocking the very idea people could take *control* of their own consciousness with goodwill toward all, or would you rather throw tantrums whenever you see a Wiccan and freak out about asteroids?

Your choice.

Always was.

We await the Wiccan spell(s) that shall save us all but being responible taxpayers will hold payment until we see results.

" CCNL

"And to think a single Wiccan spell could/can have/will saved/save us all!!!"

I could arrange that. But if people wanted to take responsibility for an act of will to tell the difference between their own fears and desires, and the fate/'doom' of 'us all,'

...Why, then, you wouldn't need me to tell you about it, would you? :)

And to think a single Wiccan spell could/can have/will saved/save us all!!!

" Ken16
"Historically, Europe descended into the Dark Ages with the fall of the Western Roman Empire to the pagan Germanic tribes near the end of the fifth century AD"

Etc, etc. Speaking of 'Historically challenged.'

Classical civilization didn't fall 'to' a bunch of refugees, it fell to itself and, in large measure, circumstances it made: Christian anti-intellectualism was actually a big factor in the destruction of much of the knowledge that had been taken for granted. Actually, many of those who raided and sacked Rome itself were Christianized and displaced peoples.

It's always pretty double-edged, studying my own heritage: yes, monks labored pretty hard, often against orders, to preserve what they saw fit to in writing, ...of things the Church was systematically destroying.

Fact is, we *could* have had and been building on what was in such places as Alexandria, before apocalyptarian views and hysteria saw it burned. I suppose if they don't think there's going to *be* a future, they're OK taking the fruits of civilization and making a big bonfire of them.

Hauntingly familiar, that.

But more complicated than it's made out to be those who try and claim all goodness must be and come from Christianity, and as soon as that came along, Rome became a nice place for most people: in fact, the Coliseum was in full swing under Christian emperors for *generations: * in fact, Christianity became a way for the same old Imperial types to try to maintain bigger and bigger slices of the wealth from and control over an ever-diminishingly-sustainable system.

Playing one tribe against another while the climate was forcing people from ever-further east... Complicated, but in large measure it was Christians fighting Christians by the time the Empire finally really fell.

It's foolish to claim that 'The Church was surprisingly nice to Galileo after jailing and ruining him for telling inconvenient truths:' just cause some ignorant bigot says 'Well, I *could* do a lot worse if I weren't Christian,' that doesn't mean it's an act of mercy to only mess you up *half as much* as they might.

Especially in cases where it's their Christianity that motivated and justified the treatment in the first place.

Just like using the fruits of civilization to claim the book-burning anti-intellectual mentality deserved the credit for us having *this* much is spending the efforts of others for some short-term sense of control.

The thing I'm looking forward to in 2009 is, at least we'll have a President who shows *competence* and *smarts* and doesn't use the opinions of the religiously-fanatical to justify driving the country off some self-fulfilling 'End times' *cliff.* (And yes, when asked a direct question about if Bush thought he was presiding over the end of the world, well. In the words of Jon Stewart: "No! You're supposed to say *no!* "

Only a couple more weeks.

If an asteroid or nukes do not wipe us out in the next 4-6 billion years, the Sun will do the job nicely by burning the globe to cosmic dust.

Historically, Europe descended into the Dark Ages with the fall of the Western Roman Empire to the pagan Germanic tribes near the end of the fifth century AD and emerged from them beginning with the Carolingian renaissance in the eight century and the later development of the university systems in the Medieval period. The learning and science of the Classical civilizations of Greece and Rome would have been utterly lost except for their faithful nurture by monastic communities such as Lindisfairn in England. Rather than creating the Dark Ages, the church, in Chesterfield's words, provided a single bridge of light spanning the darkness and connecting Classical Antiquity to the the founding of the major universities.

Galileo's heresy trial was centuries past the dark ages, and was far more complex than the simple science vs. Church superstition morality play that so delights the historically challenged. The church bent over backward to give Galileo a graceful exit from the controversy, their primary differences did not involve the heliocentric vs. geocentric cosmogony, but involved several other areas where Galileo was in error, and the church did not seek him out to persecute him. He was denounced by fellow scientists.

Presidential administrations do not do scientific research. They do have advisers who counsel the President on the policy implications of science. A science policy adviser for the Clinton administration wrote a book about Bush's "War on Science" because the new administration's policies differed from his prescriptions. Decry Bush for other reasons; his support of AIDS eradication and amelioration in Africa has been exemplary.

Frank57 has said "similar examples would fill up pages here." If they are in deed similar to what he offers, they would be also be ludicrous, uninformed and mendacious.

In some schizophrenic patients, usually very sick schizophrenic patients, there occurs a "world destruction fantasy." It is the illusion that the world is destroyed by the bad thoughts of the patient and can be restored only by him/her. Of course, this is the product of grandiosity unfettered by reason. It's tragic when a sick person has this kind of delusion but it's terribly dangerous when end-of-the-world delusions are entertained by people who are out in the world rather than behind locked doors in pajamas.

The grandiosity of the assumption that anyone knows when the world will end, whether and when God will end it and how it will end is pathological. The rapture fantasies of the evangelical extremists are forms of this fantasy. The urge to be God and to take the world apart and put it back together is almost understandable because the world is a mess but I think assuming that the world is going to end soon leaves less responsibility to make it work.

Frank57 - agreed that religion has done little to lift the veil of a pervasive ignorance in the USA, and in an age when public education is supposedly available to one and all.

However, neither religion nor education have stopped masses of people from believing that 'the sun rotates around the earth', or that the earth itself is a mere 6000 years old...as you say.

In a way it's no wonder that the rich and unscupulous greed mongers at the top of the financial pecking order brought our economic house of cards tumbling down.....with the help of a complicit, enabling government that folks twice elected to office....while the millions continued to go without.

But even today, bastions of hyper-capitalism are complaining of the 'creeping socialism' that threatens the free market economy - only because government is called upon to take charge and save the nation from the vast abuses emerging from that so-called 'free market' economy.

My advice? Buy generic drugs and put it to big pharma....one small step for mankind. Whooops! Walton family stock will probably skyrocket in the coming years if you get your Rx from Wal-Mart.

With or without prayer, it looks like the game is rigged afterall - the sun does rotate around the earth, forever shining on the fortunate few.

Religion and money are the roots of all evil, secular religions like communism and capitalism included.

No facts and no logic indicate that the today religions are more fact and less fiction/superstition than the religions of past times.

Ah, sweetness and light.

How convenient for one who has never worked in a war zone, even the "combat zones" of Chicago.

GLOBALONE :
maevtr,

I asked, "If you are including Christianity, what "dark age beliefs" are you referring to that represent barriers to us today?

Your response? "The "dark age beliefs" he is referring to are too numerous to count."

What an insightful answer! They are so numerous that you can't identify one or two that are the most egregious? Sad, really.
==============================================

I took his meaning to be that it is as simple as opening a history book to discover many such examples. Barriers to sciences such as medicine, physics, chemistry, geography, astronomy, etc., -- fundamental denigration of such is evident everywhere today -- especially in the Bush administration. which still impact us today.

My meaning, in a proper answer to your original query to me, was more or less the above.

There are, however, numerous examples. For instance, the very existence of the Vatican and the powerful grip it has on over a billion minds is a direct result of it's dark age hegemony at the dissolution of the Roman empire. For instance, only in 1992 did the Vatican "forgive" Galileo for proving that the Sun did not revolve around the Earth.

In the state of Oklahoma, a majority of the people, when polled last year, stated that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

Millions may have been sentenced to death by AIDS because our religiously-bent administration refused to sanction shipments of condoms to Africa. Why? Because of a profoundly inhuman dark age teaching that sexual abstinence is the only allowable form of birth control.

But the Vatican (Christianity in general), with it's ancient misogyny and cult-like secrets and wacky, mystical rituals, is not the only example of dark age thought and practice. The three major religions from the Middle East, C, J & I, have all produced published doctrines which allow stoning, rape, human sacrifice, war, torture, suicide, and murder of anyone for virtually any reason, in the name of "God".

Similar examples could take up pages here. Clearly the remnants of the dark ages are alive and well in the 21st century world, including, most assuredly, the USA.

Sad? You betcha!

maevtr,

I asked, "If you are including Christianity, what "dark age beliefs" are you referring to that represent barriers to us today?

Your response? "The "dark age beliefs" he is referring to are too numerous to count."

What an insightful answer! They are so numerous that you can't identify one or two that are the most egregious? Sad, really.

CREED TO CULTURE

"Religion does nothing more than assuage the fears of an ignorant people." (cf. Secularism by Dean C. Halverson)

Have we ever thought that whether or not religion would become creed, and then creed will become culture? We had known that Confucianism has become culture in East Asia.

Huy Tử, Soci. Coll. UMass Univ., Boston, MA.

globalone :
Frank57
--> If you are including Christianity, what "dark age beliefs" are you referring to that represent barriers to us today?
=========================================
I think MAEVTR covered that OK below.

=========================================
Or, using a specific example, how did "faith" affect the Founding Fathers in their work at forging a new nation?
===========================

I'm an old man, and I am not exactly sure when this myth of the "Christian Founding Fathers" and their supposed "faith" sprang forth, but I think it gathered momentum from the rise of the Southern fundamentalists, who appeared eager to 'expand' upon the beliefs of our founders. Either that or its been a byproduct of the machinery of the Christian hegemony in America. But, purely, this is another example of dogma being perpetuated by people who simply choose to believe anything they are told without doing a 'truth' check.

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches." Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it."
John Adams

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
Thomas Jefferson

A simple read of these mens' memoirs is last on the recommended reading list of those who'd have you believe otherwise -- for obvious reasons.

If anything, the Founding Fathers of the United States of America took great pains to keep any 'specific' religion well away from US government practice and operation.

The word "God", when found in any official document, was originally used to pay humble homage to the idea of "a universal creator", as well as a customary mechanism used for swearing a legally binding oath -- and in no founding documents are the words "Christian" or
"Christian nation" or "Christianity" or "Judeo-Christian" (or the name of any other religion) found.

I know these sorts of discussions can be painful for some, but it irks me no end to see the original (and wonderful) ideas embraced by our astoundingly capable, prescient Founding Fathers bullied into succumbing to a wealthy, powerful religion, and we need to fight this perversion with every ounce of energy and truth we can muster.

The founding of the United States was an extension of the Enlightenment, and an escape from the horrendous, unceasing religious persecutions in Europe. The vision was a government by the People, for ALL the people, with freedom to worship as they chose without government interference or, indeed, without the latter's interference in government.

Had these men been less gracious, religion -- especially that of Christianity -- might have been outlawed altogether.

TIME TO TAKE THOSE CAPTURED 'SUICIDE BOMBERS' AND PUT THEM ON TV ++++ WITH MAJOR COVERAGE ++++ SAYING THEY'D BEEN 'TRICKED.'

BY ANALOGY TO VIETNAM, UNTIL THOSE IN POWER STARTED HAVING THEIR SONS & DAUGHTERS SERVE AS SUICIDE BOMBERS [IN VIETNAM, IT WAS THE DRAFT] THOSE IN POSITIONS OF POWER IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD WILL CONTINUE TO USE ++++ CHEAP LABOR ++++ I.E., SOMEONE ELSE'S SON OR DAUGHTER ++++ TO DO THE DIRTY WORK. AND THEY WILL SEEK OUT VICTIMS TO CARRY THEIR SUICIDE ATTACKS AMONGST THE INJURED.

DERANGED INDIVIDUALS, ESPECIALLY DUE TO DRUG OR ALCOHOL ABUSE, OR OTHER MAJOR LIFE TRAUMAS ALWAYS RESERVE SUICIDE AS THEIR 'LAST ESCAPE' FROM REALITY -- UNTIL THEY REALIZE THAT SUICIDE IS NO ESCAPE, OR THEY, ONCE AGAIN CHOOSE LIFE.
--------------------
GIVING UP ONE'S LIFE FOR ANOTHER IS PERHAPS NOBLE, BUT IT IS NOT AS NOBLE AS LEARNING HOW TO FORGIVE AND THEN MOVE ON.

FORGIVENESS IS THE GREATEST HUMAN ATTRIBUTE, FOR IN A WORLD OF PERFECT JUSTICE, OR PERFECT KARMA, DESTRUCTION IS THE RESULT.

PERHAPS THIS IS WHY THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE SAME GOD, HAVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS NOT LIVED IN PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND AS RADICAL FORMS OF ISLAM WERE EXPORTED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, THEREIN CONFLICT HAS BEEN BREWED ANEW.

globalone :
Frank57,

"Isn't it time we gave up clinging to these dark age beliefs"

--> If you are including Christianity, what "dark age beliefs" are you referring to that represent barriers to us today? Or, using a specific example, how did "faith" affect the Founding Fathers in their work at forging a new nation?

The "dark age beliefs" he is referring to are too numerous to count. Pretty much everything in the christian religion is mans interpretation of the world around him that cannot/could not be explained. The world as seen before science and logic.
On the topic of the birth of our nation, and its founding fathers, only a small percentage of them were christians. The majority were deists, and atleast one (Franklin), was an atheist.

Frank57,

"Isn't it time we gave up clinging to these dark age beliefs"

--> If you are including Christianity, what "dark age beliefs" are you referring to that represent barriers to us today? Or, using a specific example, how did "faith" affect the Founding Fathers in their work at forging a new nation?

Dear Ms. Thistlethwaite,

Perhaps 2009 will be the year that more people than ever will throw off the yoke of superstitious, emotional gobbledygook and come to terms with being human and part of nature and the natural universe.

For, you yourself know well that, as soon as you promote any belief that relies solely on 'belief' to keep it alive, you open a Pandora's Box of beliefs -- allowing people to believe and defend their beliefs in everything from unicorns to flying pigs.

You can devise no argument against my claim, for instance, that we are all children of the invisible, giant purple spaceship just above our heads, unless you employ simple logic -- which you religionists find anathema.

Isn't it time we gave up clinging to these dark age beliefs and concentrate on helping our brothers and sisters in more practical, substantial ways?

Surely, if we were to do so without leaning on religious beliefs and building massive temples -- if there is a God -- wouldn't He/She/It be even more proud of us?

Religion will be less important in 2009 as more "pew sitters" and "bowers" see the flaws and errors in the major religions.

e.g. (for those eyes that have not seen)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.
Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
Current crisis:
Realization that the Jews are not god's chosen people.
www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/Works_Cited
For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

Wiccan.

Your level headed responses are always appreciated.

Thinking as ourselves as separate causes so much pain in the world. My hope is one day we come together.

Happy New Year

There will always be idols of the tribes. For some it's religion, for others reason.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they have transcended both.

Merry Meet, Mongrel! (Couldn't resist the alliteration;-))

You said,

"This being said I don’t believe a new vision will be found in a book. It is found within each of us." Then, "That is not saying I am God, it means to be as God would be."

This is very close to Wiccan thinking, as we believe the the Divine is immanent in all, including ourselves. The Charge of the Goddess states:

"And you who seek to know Me, know that the seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without."

The Abrahamic notion of God being separate from Man and Nature leads many to disdain both, I think.

"Is there anything better to serve than life if you are an atheist?"

Nothing better for the rest of us, too. :-)

Brightest Blessings on the New Year!

Susan.

Great essay. The best line is “And it is only an alternative religious vision that can provide the alternative truth, that the world itself is of consummate worth and infinite spiritual value.”

Religion needs a new vision!

To me many confuse ceremony with spirituality.

While books are very useful if we use them as fuel to spark our imagination and help us explore our spirituality. Once of the best dissertations I have read on the Bible is The Second Coming of Christ by Paramahansa Yogananda. Yes a Hindu giving exemplary commentary on the Bible! Who knew. It is this kind of new exploration all religion needs.

This being said I don’t believe a new vision will be found in a book. It is found within each of us.

There is a difference between knowing of something and knowing something.
There is a difference between knowing of love and being in love.
There is a difference between knowing Julia Roberts and meeting Julia Roberts.
There is a vast difference between knowing of God and meeting God or if you are brave enough to utter the words there is a difference between knowing of God and being God.

That is not saying I am God, it means to be as God would be. The key of course is what is the proper definition of God? Can we all agree that it is Love, it is freedom, it is creation (not destruction) it is life. If we serve life, we serve our God(s). This even works if your atheist. Is there anything better to serve than life if you are an atheist?

Dear Susan:

You wrote: "Aum Shinrikyo is a blend of elements of Buddhism, Hinduism, and Christianity."

Would you care to show us the chapter and verse of the Gospels or the Letters of Paul the point to mass murder as "Christian"? I know well that you can't. If you had read the material, you would know it too. Can you show these in either "Hindu", or "Buddhist" writings?

Your real job as a professor at the seminary is to explain why these terrorists are acting against the tenants of the great religions, and thus to immunize people against their pathological arguments.