Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite
Professor, Chicago Theological Seminary

Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite

Former president of Chicago Theological Seminary (1998-2008), Thistlethwaite is a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress.

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A Woman's Life is a Human Life

I'm old enough to remember when abortion was illegal. Young women would disappear from my college and never come back, or sometimes come back with serious infections. Years later, at reunion, these same women would confide that they had never been able to have children because of a botched abortion. Women died when abortion was illegal. Women were butchered when abortion was illegal. A woman's life is also a human life.

A 2007 Gallup poll shows that the majority of Americans favor retaining Roe v. Wade. Most Americans do not want to go back to a time when abortion was illegal and women died from sometimes unprofessional procedures in unsanitary backrooms. The best description of American attitudes toward abortion is ambivalent.

McCain and Palin's campaign rhetoric about overturning Roe v. Wade is out of step with half the population. According to Gallup's annual Values and Belief survey, conducted May 10-13, 2007, 49% of Americans consider themselves "pro-choice." Furthermore, despite campaign spin employed by McCain and Palin, there are many more positions in America than just "pro-choice" or "anti-abortion." Senator Obama represents the majority view in that while he is not personally in favor of abortion, he does not favor overturning Roe v. Wade. While a majority of Americans favor retaining Roe v. Wade, most Americans also favor some restrictions on abortion including late-term abortions.

What will happen if Roe v. Wade is overturned? The question will then go to the states, and as is the case now with other controversial social issues, the law on abortion will vary state to state. That means that women in certain states, and women who have the financial means to travel to those states, will still be able to get legal abortions. And the rest? Overturning Roe v. Wade will put the burden of "abortion reduction" squarely on women who have fewer resources. These are the women who will sometimes fall prey to illegal abortions or dangerous "homemade" remedies. Some of those women will be injured, some fetuses will be injured, some women will die from illegal abortions.

This inequality is immoral by any standard. It also effectively changes the interpretation of the Constitution to make it conform to the religious beliefs of some Americans.

In part, the ambivalence of Americans on abortion stems from the fact that Americans hold different beliefs on when life starts. Put in theological terms, religious Americans are divided on when a human being is ensouled.

Conservative Protestantism has flatly declared that the soul is implanted immediately at the moment the egg and the sperm meet. This is currently the position not only of Protestant fundamentalists and many evangelicals, but also of the Catholic Church.

Interestingly, however, this is not the view of one of the most famous teachers of the Catholic Church, St. Thomas Aquinas. Thomas did not think that the soul was implanted at birth. It was Thomas's view that the soul is the form of the body--what completes the physical dimension of humanity and, in short, makes us human. Thomas taught that the rational soul is produced by special creation at the moment when the organism is sufficiently developed to receive it. In the first state of embryonic development, the vital principle has merely vegetative powers. Then a sensitive soul comes into being, educed from the evolving potencies of the organism, later yet, this is replaced by the rational soul. The soul in short develops with the form of the human.

While I do think that Aquinas linking of biological development and ensoulment is helpful in thinking about when the fetus becomes human, I would add that from a progressive Protestant viewpoint, the soul is best understood as the capacity humans have for relationship with God--while this is not exclusively the development of the frontal lobe, the development of human critical consciousness allows the human being to imagine the infinite and hence reach for it in a way that animals do not. I am therefore one of those who would oppose late term abortion, as biological development and ensoulment are linked. There is an imputed capacity for consciousness in the third trimester. In fact, given this perspective, abortion, if undertaken at all, should be in the first trimester both for ethical and medical reasons.

But even for those who regard all abortion as the taking of human life, there is still moral precedent to allow abortion within Christian thinking on war and peace. Christians have written at length on when it may be considered moral to engage in war--this is Just War theory. Frances Kissling made a cogent argument in 1991 that if war can be just, then abortion must be also.

I have often thought, however, that the reason this connection is so infrequently made is because Just War theory requires that the decision-maker must be a "competent authority". Women, who are the primary, though at times not the only, decision-makers about abortion, have not been and are not now considered capable of moral reasoning by patriarchal religion--and all religions since the Common Era are to some degree or other patriarchal.

One very important reason, in my view, why we cannot, as a nation, decide that the religious and humanist views on the status of the fetus and its relationship to the abortion decision is a matter for individual conscience is that in this particular instance of moral decision-making, women are the primary actors. And woman are not viewed as competent moral decision makers, but capricious and idiosyncratic at best in their capacity for ethical judgment. Dr. Beverly Harrison made this point years ago in her excellent book Our Right to Choose.

Yet, it is only in the exercise of conscience and the protection of freedom of conscience that we find a way forward as a nation because we manifestly hold differing religious and humanist values on when the human being becomes human or becomes ensouled. The only way we can function in this democratic society with this Constitution is to accept that we differ in our beliefs in this matter.

If we ever again make abortion completely illegal, we will have established one religious view of when the human being becomes human, i.e. one religious view of ensoulment. This must be unconstitutional in a plain reading of the establishment clause.

Abortion is a decision that people sometimes make after wrestling with competing moral claims. Abortion is also the end product of a society that fails to protect women from violence, fails to give young people truthful explanations of their own reproductive capacity and the tools to be able to act responsibly their whole reproductive lives and often fails to provide even the minimum needed to earn a living and care for your family in dignity and health.

An ethical way to address abortion reduction is to give truthful sex education, safe and widely available contraception, health care for pregnant women and their children, and support for day care so that women and their families are not forced into having an abortion because they cannot afford to raise a child.

And we must learn to respect one another's privacy and respect that women can be moral decision-makers. Taking us back to illegal abortions and state-by-state differences does nothing to really reduce abortions and just puts women's lives at risk.

By Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite  |  September 27, 2008; 7:37 AM ET
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Previous: Abortion: Single-Issue Voting is Immoral | Next: The Horrible Legacy of 'Roe v. Wade'

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"A woman's life is human life." What about Laura Hope Smith? Edrica Goode? Tamiia Russell? Holly Patterson? Vivian Tran? Weren't their lives human lives?

Very few things sicken me quite as much as the way abortion enthusiasts turn a blind eye to legal abortion quackery that takes women's lives. The only tragic deaths, it seems, are those you can make political fodder out of.

Posted by: washpost31 | September 30, 2008 7:42 PM
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Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton,

ben Misir'da yetismis astronomi ve matematik buldugumuz Molla Fenari'yi (light lamp) bir gorup geleyim, orada okula giden, yaz tatilinde cay getiren bir cocuk geldi simdi elimi optu, gozunun acilmasini anlattim. benim Bursa'daki ilk esim de Molla Fenari SAglik Ocagindaydi, Uludag Tip mezunu.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 7:18 AM
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much of these, i had studied and verbalized on Crimson Circle since 2001 to 2006, where i had verbalized several of the poems on Classics Network.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 7:01 AM
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Williams Bush,

please help us to cover the roof of the barn to have it up, especially in these cases to have certain "per factum, from the facts" story, maybe with reference to FActs of Apostels, so there is not any problem for originals or educational sources. the important is to have the barn up for all of us on EArth.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 6:57 AM
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and "sinded" is maybe from "wir sind", "sinded" makes SOUND from "winded and wound" with reference to syntax, which makes "commune", which may give "sin", before He had completely given up, the physical dualistic nature of Jesus Christ in body, before He made His way to India.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 6:54 AM
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other than CHRYST, i had begun with Cheerist.
as it is in "shepherd" and "sheep herd".

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 6:49 AM
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September 30, 2008 5:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments

Christ maybe is from german of CHRY-ST,
ich chry du chryst er sie es chryt
wir chryen ihr chryt sie Sie chryen.

an apostel is known with "cry", as Kryon is from Apostel "Cry" and Weiling Wall, Lee Carroll speaks much about Israel, with Venice and Lighthouse.

we had talked about these in this one year here. then comes Philadelphia, Cyprus, Delphia and Mobile Phones and Wireless Audio Video Communication, MAnisa, St PAul and St Philips, Aesop and Midas in Eskisehir with Gordion and Knot of Alexander the Great.

Excalibur and Sword, Merlin, Odin, St Nicholas, Sword of Michael are also subject to our vision.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 6:48 AM
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Laura Bush, it was cheerful to have met You, but i was late, and Mrs Smith and Mrs Thistlethwaite has been the source of cheer, as You have maybe met. in Ephesus i had explained Chry'santhemum and Thistlethwaite with 22/7.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 5:55 AM
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and here we have come to Ethiopia, the source of faith paths "Seth Opia", and Sirius Star, Wolves, St Francis of Assisi, with Blue Life. Seth is known with Desert and Sand Storms.

and then come the Isis, Winded of Isis, Didim, Thesis Anti-thesis and Syn-thesis, Medusa, evolution and communism, Scandinavian and Egyptian Mythologies, Thor Hammer and Sickle, with SAturn other than Jupiter Louis.

and then come Neptun Pisces the Double Fish and CERN Experiment on the border of Switzerland and France.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 5:51 AM
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Sirius Star is in Egypt also and Mother of Ishmael was Daughter of Phorah, by Abraham. Moses in a Woven Box on the River means that He had been fully awake, like Jesus and Ahmet had addressed to His parents in their beds. in Sudan is Enoch before Noah, "the fresh water source is the ice melt".

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 5:43 AM
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St John, St JAmes and St Joseph
St Luke, St Matthew and St Matthias

Acts of Apostels.

in Suudi Arabia there is Sirius Star
and Prophet Noah with Cube of Abraham and House of Ahmet prophet. Moses had passed from Sudan to Suudi Arabia.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 5:40 AM
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Armenians and Iran with HAzarbeycan have better unite. other than St Augustine, from Algeria to Bursa, profession of Pope Benedictus and source of my physical conditions, we may talk about the JAcket Of Ahmet prophet and Coffee with Veysel KArani in Bursa and Siirt. Emevi Mervani SAfi Sunni ASsistant of Prime Minister "onunu acan, yazdigim siir icin de soyleyebiliriz" had fallen in Siirt.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 5:33 AM
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Hatice the Wife, from Syria, Suudia Arabia and India, with St Thomas, shall be the southern path.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 5:23 AM
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if Italian Catholic Mrs Pelusi in Democrat PArty has made agreement with Italy Vatican,

then Representative of Islam is Pope Benedictus or Shimon Peres or King of Arabia, other than the Representative in Bosna Hersek.

or all shall take the inheritance of Ahmet prophet to Ali and FAtima and the grandsons.

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 5:21 AM
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Williams Bush has been dis-appointed,

the economy on September 30th 2008 in USA cannot be worse than it was on September 12th 2001.

a vehicle of SArah Palin with armament to Barack Obama has been kidnapped in front of President of Turkey supported by Vatican,

President of Muslim SAfi Sunni Sudan is in humanity crimes. Emevi SAfi Mervani in Diyarbakir and North of Iraq fell down.

Somali is between England and Italy, Queen Elizabeth has been CAtholic this week, if Italian Catholic Mrs Pelusi in Democrat PArty has made agreement with Italy Vatican,

Posted by: lvntlknea | September 30, 2008 5:18 AM
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lvntlkn.ea:

None of your postings make any freaking sense.

And in case you haven't noticed, this is an American newspaper's website, and in the States we speak English. So posting in Danish or whatever the hell you're doing is pointless, k?

Posted by: Butterfly3 | September 29, 2008 6:59 PM
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isin ilginc tarafi bu mesajlari yazarken, Milliyet okumamistim. ama anlatamiyoruz iste.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 29, 2008 9:15 AM
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this is lvntlkn.ea

these are different chapters from different books. i have better walk for a while to discharge the reloaded interference.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 29, 2008 4:27 AM
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i have better go back to Mrs Jacoby's Sacred Egg article.

"... As the great Monty Python song goes, "Every sperm is sacred/every sperm is great/if a sperm is wasted/God gets quite irate.""

Posted by: Anonymous | September 29, 2008 4:19 AM
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in the mean time, as far as i have seen on His photos, my teeth are exactly the same with Prince Andrew's in Malaysia.

Kathleen Stark in Star Wars, practising new bud in dharma, may be with St Thomas. was Her relation with Prince Andrew an abortion?

Posted by: Anonymous | September 29, 2008 4:07 AM
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in all of these messages, i am talking about birth and abortion, from one another point of view.


Posted by: Anonymous | September 29, 2008 4:02 AM
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President of Israel, Shimon Peres,

dentist, teacher and psychotherapist are one word of a family. i must knock on Your door, Shimon Peres, to explain us who are in Anadolu and where the practices in Turkey are from, other than Ukrain.

i must knock on Your door, Shimon Peres, to learn who the Engaged-to-Dead people are? i must knock on Your door, Shimon Peres, to be in Heaven.


Posted by: Anonymous | September 29, 2008 2:33 AM
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Mrs Pelosi! Mrs Pelosi!

i am economist, according to Acts of Apostels, and my birthday. thanks Ma'm.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 29, 2008 2:25 AM
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Ms. Brooks,

In your article you said: "McCain and Palin's campaign rhetoric about overturning Roe v. Wade is out of step with half the population." If half the nation is out of step with Senator McCain and Governor Palin, then the other half of America is "IN STEP" with them on the issue of abortion. Once again we have liberal women like yourself trying desperately to redefine the narrative on morality and abortion. You say that Senator Obama is not personally in favor of abortion? Really, since when? Please show me the Senator's voting record as it pertains to all issues on abortion and Infanticide before you defend Obama's position which has proven to be - indefensible. If you are going to attempt to defend the "ONE" (Barack Obama) then you need to have all the facts to prove your case.

Why is it that liberal women are "fearful" of Governor Palin? Is it her Conservative view points? Is she not the "liberal female" you have been waiting for? Has she not demonized men enough to satisfy the women's movement? Are you shocked over the fact half the women in this country do not view abortion the way you do? Are you worried that women of all ages are excited about Sarah Palin? You are all about the woman and no defense for the unborn. Interesting! Senator McCain also has a very strong voting record on "pro-life" issues. It is one thing to say you are pro-life, it is another to hide behind your voting record as Senator Casey from Pennsylvania has done. McCain has a proven record, Sarah Palin has lived her belief. I can tell you we are energized by this Republican ticket, and any attempt to bring the Governor down, in any way, will only make the Conservative Base stronger. We thank women like you for helping us get the vote out when you write "hit pieces" which try to make Sarah into someone different. When in truth, women like us, think women like you, are the different ones.

Then we have the fear factor in your opinion piece. The language of "botched abortions" women being butchered and infections you go on to say. The coat hangar, back alley fear mongering drum beat of yet another "world view" when it comes to the "right to choose life" - or abort it. You want to make the woman who gets pregnant the victim, when most women except those who are sexually violated, have made a decision to have sex. You talk about controversial social issues, women who can afford to travel to other states if Roe v. Wade is overturned and then you say what about the rest? Why do you use antiquated language in your argument? Why will women fall prey to illegal abortions and homemade remedies? Why can't women be strong and practice self control? What is wrong with being celibate and celebrating the fact that we are empowered when we make "smart" decisions and show some self restraint? Women should equip themselves with a strategy so when we face temptations we know how to resist. Setting boundaries for yourself and being concrete in your beliefs does more for strengthening a person than an exit plan.

Abortion is silent murder, and you are trying to come up with window dressing to disguise an immoral act which is committed on innocent lives who do not have a voice. You want to quote St. Thomas Aquinas, and disregard the teachings of the Holy Bible. Psalm 139:13 -16 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body.

Of course we could point to when Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ was visited by an Angel from God in Luke 1:26-37

The Birth of Jesus Foretold ~

26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" 35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37 For nothing is impossible with God."

---------------------------------------------------

So here we have two times where Gabriel tells Mary she will be with child, in the womb, where anyone who wants to discount the the Old Testament as fables, we have in the Gospel of Luke, the New Testament, actual PROOF where Jesus Christ was considered a life in the womb, before He was born into the world. Gabriel goes on to tell Mary, that her cousin Elizabeth is going to have a child. Human life begins at conception, not at birth, and not at some point consistent with Roe for convenience. This is the end of the argument for me because quite honestly, I believe you have failed to make your case.

In closing I would also like to include an article which was put out by two prominent Bishops correcting Nancy Pelosi and Senator Biden. The Catholic Church should be applauded for their strong defense in this election of church teachings and the foundation of what is truly important above all else and that is the issues of LIFE and the sanctity of marriage. If we lose - bring to destruction - the moral battle, what have we won? After all Jesus said in Matthew 16:26 - 26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

I would also like to suggest for you to view an incredible video called the CatholicVote.com This video truly does put everything into perceptive when is comes to this election and even beyond; for all of us, and hopefully for you as well.

Terri Green

Catholic bishops correct Pelosi on abortion

August 25, 2008

DENVER—Two prominent Roman Catholic archbishops say House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a Catholic Democrat, misstated church teachings about abortion in a recent television appearance, the latest sign that the U.S. Catholic hierarchy will not stay silent about politics this election year.

In an appearance Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press," Pelosi said "doctors of the church" have not been able to define when life begins and that "over the history of the church, this is an issue of controversy."

Washington Archbishop Donald Wuerl, citing the teaching responsibility entrusted to bishops, issued a statement late Monday that read, in part: "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable."

Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput and his auxiliary bishop, James Conley, said in a statement posted on the archdiocesan Web site: "Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is a gifted public servant of strong convictions and many professional skills. Regrettably, knowledge of Catholic history and teaching does not seem to be one of them."

Abortion "is always gravely evil, and so are the evasions employed to justify it," the statement continued.

Over the weekend, Chaput said in an e-mail to The Associated Press that Democratic vice presidential nominee-in-waiting Sen. Joseph Biden should refrain from receiving Communion because of his abortion stance.

A Pelosi spokesman did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/articles/2008/08/25/catholic_bishops_correct_pelosi_on_abortion/

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 11:50 PM
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Answering NotSoGreatScot: what "late" means depends on two factors. One is that the foetus is sufficient well developed that it can no longer be called just a bunch of cells but organs have already developed. The second factor is that the woman has had sufficient time to have an early abortion. So I would say, late means after 3 months or so. Naturally, if there is a medical necessity then abortion should always be permitted. But whether there is actually a necessity should be decided by someone other than the person seeking abortion or a doctor chosen (and paid) by her. Society needs to say, "Before you take a life, convince us that you really have an emergency."

I am only partly convinced by the bodily autonomy argument. Note that if a woman is terminally ill and in great pain, only ONE state (Oregon) allows her to commit suicide. But surely her right to end her own life exceeds her right to end the life of others. If we can and do limit her right to end her own life, we need not hesitate to put limits on her right to end another life. But I am talking limits, NOT prohibition.

Personally of course I wish all states followed the example of Oregon. People in great pain should not be forced to live. Forcing them to live is no different from Guantanamo.
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Anonymous (one of many) wrote: " Actually I HAVE read the Blackmun opinion at some point in the past... but I detest late abortions made from pure "choice"."

What is your definition of late?

(posted by NotSoGreatScot

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 11:25 PM
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I would like to add to the highly convincing post of Rev. Susan T, that by fighting and promising to keep fighting against abortions, Conservatives
are getting electoral votes and a steady flow of monetary contributions. But in the case of the Vatican, the motivations are different: first they want us always to feel guilty, for many reasons ( just like we are guilty of the socalled , but nonexistent, original sin). Second, they want the number of catholics grow steadily because there is strength in large numbers.Artificial birth control and abortion are not helping the catholic population grow.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 8:00 PM
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This just goes on forever. No one ties a womans hands behind her back and forces her into an abortion clinic. No one forces a pregnant woman to abort her foetus. Yet, religious institutions and conservative politicians are quite willing to force any woman to follow through with an unwanted pregnancy. Where does that leave women as a class or biological species? Are women just breeding stock who by the misfortune of being born female with a uterus are denied the right to self determination. This thinking tells me that the patriarchy of religion and conservative political thinking in this country is a thinly veiled ideology that is no different than the way The Taliban views women in the Islamic world. Religious thinkers and conservative pundits can rail all they like against a woman's right to choose but until they support easy access to contraception and fully fund the programs that women and children need they reveal the true contempt that they show for children and women.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 6:38 PM
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i have a request from His Holiness, Pope John PAul and His assistant Joseph Ratzinger had left several stones on the road.

with Georg Ganswein, assistant of Pope Benedictus, may the road be easier and more enlightened, easy to find the instruments and equipments.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 9:00 AM
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Anonymous (one of many) wrote: " Actually I HAVE read the Blackmun opinion at some point in the past... but I detest late abortions made from pure "choice"."

What is your definition of late?

(posted by NotSoGreatScot)

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 8:59 AM
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Williams Bush,
for "killing", ask from "Ibrahim Ethem".

yeryuzune cikanlar ve kiyametin kopmasi konusunda tek soyleyebilecegim, en azindan midenin duzeltilmesidir.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 8:55 AM
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Ermenilerin SAid Nursi'yi destekledigini biliyorum. Cumhurbaskaninin da VAtikan, Papa adina kutsanmis Ingiltere Kralicesi ve Vatikan tarafindan desteklendigini biliyorum. Cumhurbaskaninin FEthullah Gulen ile bilindigini goruyorum.

1. Diyanet Isleri BAskani KAdir Gecesinde Bardakoglu Bursa Yildirim Camiinde olacakken Bilkent'e neden gitti ve BAkanlara imamlik etti?

2. ben bir kere bile Fethullah Gulen demedim, demem de. Said Nursi'yi de acikladim. Hacet meselesiydi.

3. Cumhurbaskaninin Ermenistan konusunda baska yollar bulmasi gerekli. mesela keten tohumu ve bezirgan yagi gibi. bezirganbasi sutbasi ve subasi bu ulkeye yeter.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 6:36 AM
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this is lvntlkn.ea,

shall this give healthy children, Mrs Thistlethwaite?

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 6:24 AM
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this is lvntlkn.ea

tereyagli gozlemeler Shimon Peres'den.

this is the new graffiti,
"i am communist, according to Acts of Apostels!"

Mrs Thistlethwaite, do You approve this?

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 6:22 AM
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and i thank Ahmedinecad for just having a stick to warn the folk for harmony.

Armenia, beloved Armenia, the Earth as a ship in the navy sky, and animals, the circle of animals and astronomy, and genetics, linguistics, medical science, wine and "asure" have already been through the borders.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 6:09 AM
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i shall keep the books of Venice, LightHouse, St MArkus and Kryon open. i congratulate China for the first skywalk.

i congratulate Iran for the first National Car to export, and the first satellite to launch, i know that electricity from water is not sufficient for space labority and they work hard on radioactive energy,

and Turkey for National Ship launched "Island with a Bag, Heybeliada".

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 6:03 AM
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this is lvntlkn.ea,
"Governess of Australia, "

Mrs Professor Thistlethwaite,

what i say is "there shall not be any abortion according to the fundamentals of infrastructure". like the fundamentals of Chrome Google Internet Explorer, it is today's fruit.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 5:03 AM
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Governess of Australia,

nowadays, there is not any news from Aborigins in Australia. for months, more than a year, i have not heard a message from Aborigins. is it because of radioactivity mineral, or because i was busy with New Zealand?

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 4:57 AM
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this is lvntlkn.ea
"vice presidential candidate "

i opened a new account and it is still anonymous. is this because i dont have an email account?

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 4:53 AM
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vice presidential candidate SArah Palin, "my half-blood sister" if you let me say, if the language on Aphrodite Didim is the eye glasses, let me say i have lenses. eye glasses keep the vision smaller or larger than actual size of the objects. the ground is far and the person is taller. the voice is high-pitched.

with lenses all are actual, and your cloths are beautiful. just the forehead may be wider, hair taken behind.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 4:42 AM
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this is lvntlkn.ea
"1. the third world war in..."

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 4:36 AM
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1. the third world war in 2010, by Elder Vangelia in Russia,

2. Cube of Abraham in Suudi Arabia, stone from space, reconstructed like "space center"

3. Georg Ganswein, the successor of Pope Benedictus His Holiness.

Crimson Circle, Tobias, shall leave in the first months of 2009, and his body is ready corporally, these are all in the channelings, nine years old, as it is in France of Elder Vangelia.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 28, 2008 4:34 AM
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Holy sperm????

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 11:52 PM
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I agree with this comment. I would not be a free person if government could tell me that I had to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. There is no way to determine when or if a few microscopic cells has a soul. Abortion should remain an option at least during the first trimester of pregnancy and in my view throughout pregnancy. The world would be better if we concentrated on eliminating starvation of children in third world countries, and also concentrated on eliminating diseases that kill children while they are very young and vulnerable. Nature aborts fetuses all the time, particularly in the first couple of months of pregnancy. I do not believe fetuses have souls. If you consider the subject to the extreme, you may consider sperm to be holy and eggs to be holy even before they touch each other. They all have life potential.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 10:38 PM
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Another anonymous wrote:

It sounds as though you need to read what Roe V. Wade actually says. It is all about weighing the balance between the woman's right to make a private medical decision, and the state's right to intervene on behalf of the fetus.
--------------
You sound like McCain making one of his patronizing comments to Obama! :) Actually I HAVE read the Blackmun opinion at some point in the past.

But, look at the website

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

Which gives reasons cited for abortion.

Health reasons, either the pregnant woman's or the foetuse's as the reason for abortion amount to all of SIX percent (together).

The two biggest reasons are "has all the children she wanted or all children are grown" 19%
or "can't afford baby now" 23%.

Pro-choicers may accept such reasons, as they might accept someone's having an abortion to do better in a tennis match. But some of might want "health reasons" not to be stretched in this way into "it is better for me not to have this baby."

I do support RU-486, but I detest late abortions made from pure "choice".

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 9:58 PM
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To be 'pro-life' and yet support capital punishment and war is a contradiction. To be opposed to abortion is more correctly called anti-abortion, not pro-life. Pro-choice is an appropriate name for those who favor the choice of abortion, and not anti-life as some anti-choice believers claim. Many pro-choice thinkers are anti-capital punishment, anti-war and support national health care, which would save lives. Why is it more moral to care about the unborn than the born? How is it more Christian to care about fetuses that may even miscarry than to care about Iraqi children that have been killed or maimed for life?

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 9:10 PM
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Anonymous wrote: "Of course a woman's life is a human life, and most of us agree that a woman's life takes priority over the life of a foetus. But a woman's convenience cannot take priority over the life of a developed foetus in the later stage of pregnancy. When a woman says, "I need an abortion because I have an emergency", society has the right to say, "If you really have an emergency, then we agree, but you have to convince us, and not just your doctor whom you are paying." A child's life is also precious, its value is not zero."

It sounds as though you need to read what Roe V. Wade actually says. It is all about weighing the balance between the woman's right to make a private medical decision, and the state's right to intervene on behalf of the fetus.

For example - from Blackmun's majority opinion:

"In view of all this, we do not agree that, by adopting one theory of life, Texas may override the rights of the pregnant woman that are at stake. We repeat, however, that the State does have an important and legitimate interest in preserving and protecting the health of the pregnant woman, whether she be a resident of the State or a nonresident who seeks medical consultation and treatment there, and that it has still another important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life. These interests are separate and distinct. Each grows in substantiality as the woman approaches [p163] term and, at a point during pregnancy, each becomes "compelling.""

(posted by NotSoGreatScot)

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 6:54 PM
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Thistlethwaite ignores the fact that from the first century A.D., Christianity has condemned abortion as NEVER permissible. Thomas Aquinas also condemned abortion as NEVER permissible, and considered all scholastic theories of ensoulment irrelevant to the issue. Thistlethwaite fails miserably in her rhetorical effort to make innocent what always in Christianity (until the 20th century A.D.) has been considered grievous, mortal sin.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 5:45 PM
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How Susan Thistlethwaite's posts get tagged "mainline Protestant" is beyond me. Her views are anything but.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 4:49 PM
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this is lvntlkn.ea.

as far as i have seen in the photos, with the address of Shimon Peres to AHmediAncestry, AhmediAncestry felt as a Son, or at least i felt Confidence and FAmily.

"Pope John Paul wanted to ...",

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 12:02 PM
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Pope John Paul wanted to take His right foot, He didnt talk, He worried and drove my attention. His was with two of mine, and my feet were like in a mud or gummed. i told Him that He may go to His friends and Beloveds. He didnt talk, He went cheerfully.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 11:53 AM
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"Abortion is a decision that people sometimes make after wrestling with competing moral claims."

Well, Billie Jean King had an abortion so she would do well in a tennis match. I need to be convinced that she really took the competing moral claims all that seriously.

The first step you have to take is to admit that some people have abortions for reasons which are not justifiable. Others may have compelling reasons for an abortion.

These cases cannot be treated in the same way. Pro-lifers who say, "No abortions, ever" and pr-hoicers who say, "It is all up to the woman and her doctor" are oversimplifying the issues.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 10:19 AM
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Of course a woman's life is a human life, and most of us agree that a woman's life takes priority over the life of a foetus. But a woman's convenience cannot take priority over the life of a developed foetus in the later stage of pregnancy. When a woman says, "I need an abortion because I have an emergency", society has the right to say, "If you really have an emergency, then we agree, but you have to convince us, and not just your doctor whom you are paying." A child's life is also precious, its value is not zero.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 10:14 AM
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this is lvnlkn.eta or lvntlkn.ea

there are practises of violet flame where with scissors practitioners cut the threads between people. this is more than divorce lawyers can do.

some healers use this imagination, for some people it is more than imagination, abortion is applied.

TOKI PArsomenini sominede yaksaydiniz BAsbakan Efendi, sizden hediye isteyen mi oldu, hayatimizi size mi sorduk, sizden mi istedik, dusurdugunuz borcu kapatin dedik.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 27, 2008 6:26 AM
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With regard to this paragraph:

"If we ever again make abortion completely illegal, we will have established one religious view of when the human being becomes human, i.e. one religious view of ensoulment. This must be unconstitutional in a plain reading of the establishment clause."


As to the constitutional point, the Supreme Court has consistently and sensibly held that a law does not violate the Establishment Clause simply because it happens to "coincide or harmonize with the tenets of some or all religions". Even the Roe court would not have argued that there was an Establishment Clause problem with an abortion ban.

Also, as has been frequently pointed out, ensoulment is something of a red herring in this context. People can and do disagree over whether a 30 year old has a soul, too, but the answer to whether intentionally killing a 30 year old should be punishable by law need hardly depend on one’s view of ensoulment. Likewise, an opinion on whether the intentional killing of an unborn fetus should be punishable by law need not depend on theological premises.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 26, 2008 6:21 PM
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CCNL.. CCNL.. hi lvnlkn, -hi CCNL, thanks for joking! -you began first. -Peg&Place was around. -he left for a concert. -are you old enough to remember when adopting was legal? -i have better stay in Denmark.

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 25, 2008 12:25 PM
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let me check the channels,

Russia.. Russia.. no signal.
Austria.. Austria.. no signal.

Germany.. Germany.. - hey man, come drink a glass of beer. - ha yah! how is it going? come to Perge. - what Perge? - Perge in Antalya, the birthplace of Beer. - oh i didnt know that. - i shall go to Perge this winter for Santa Claus, come have one glass. - i shall call the travel agency, see you later.

Russia.. Russia.. this is MEdvedev, Dimitri Medvedev, i am putting a circle of flowers, come hand with me.

Kenya.. Kenya.. oh i hear a music, "jump jump everybody jump jump", i have better check the MilkyWay news.

France.. France.. -this is Associated France, parlevufrance? - no, may i learn how is the space station? - Renault? - no space station? - Renault Megan?

oh God!

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 25, 2008 11:55 AM
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Famous Adoptees

Anthony Williams - politician
Aristotle - philosopher
Art Linkletter - comedian
Bo Diddley - musician, performer
Buffy Sainte-Marie - musician, actress
Carl-Theodor Dreyer - Danish film director
Charlotte Anne Lopez - Miss Teen USA
Christina Crawford - author
Clarissa Pinkola Estes - author
Crazy Horse - Lakota war chief
Dan O'Brien - decathlete
Daunte Culpepper - football player
Dave Thomas - entrepreneur: founder of Wendy's
Debbie Harry - singer
D.M.C. - hip hop artist
Edgar Allan Poe - poet, writer
Edward Albee - playwright
Eleanor Roosevelt - First Lady
Eric Dickerson - athlete
Faith Daniels - news anchor
Faith Hill - country singer
Freddie Bartholomew - actor
George Washington Carver - inventor
Greg Louganis - athlete
James MacArthur - actor
James Michener - author
Jean Jacques Rousseau - philosopher
Jesse Jackson - minister
Jesus - adopted by Joseph the carpenter (Bible)
Jett Williams - country singer and author
Jim Palmer - athlete
John J. Audubon - naturalist
John Hancock - politician
John Lennon - musician
Langston Hughes - poet and writer
Larry Ellison - entrepreneur: chief executive of Oracle
Lee Majors - actor
Leo Tolstoy - writer
Les Brown - motivational speaker
Lynnette Cole - Miss USA 2000
Malcolm X - civil rights leader
Mark Acre - athlete
Matthew Laborteaux - actor
Melissa Gilbert - actress
Michael Reagan - author, talk show host
Moses - Biblical leader
Nancy Reagan - First Lady
Nat King Cole - singer
Nelson Mandela - politician
Patrick Labyorteaux - actor
Peter and Kitty Carruthers - figure skaters
President Gerald Ford - politician
President William Clinton - politician
Priscilla Presley - actress
Ray Liotta - actor
Reno - performance artist, comedian
Sarah McLachlan - singer
Scott Hamilton - figure skater
Sen. Paull H. Shin - politician
Sen. Robert Byrd - politician
Steve Jobs - entrepreneur: co-founder of Apple computer
Surya Bonaly - figure skater
Tim Green - football player/commentator
Tim McGraw - country singer
Tom Monaghan - entrepreneur
Tommy Davidson - comedian
Victoria Rowell - actress
Wilson Riles - educator

Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | September 25, 2008 11:50 AM
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www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,426485,00.html

thanks God, i shall not have to explain which lvnt.lkn i am.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,426342,00.html

is this like the telescopes and satellites launched for planets?

so by means of electromagnetics, there shall be sound of a slap, it shall hurt in the face but there shall not be any hand?

we shall be home everywhere! i may be able to be in contact with my beloveds in audiovisual energy!

so shall i be able to be in contact with Williams Bush, Dimitri Medvedev, Pope Benedictus, Queen Elizabeth, CCNL in Denmark, Baninha in Portugal, Elder in Alabama, Hugo Chavez in the Council of PEru, Dalai LAma in Tibet, Governor in Australia!

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 25, 2008 11:43 AM
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s far as i see, the language of Charles Darwin and "ashkenazik" Karl MArks are unique.

shall the new economic bill in USA pay mothers for baby care, to encourage not to abort?

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 25, 2008 11:27 AM
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Just War is "Nefis Mucadelesi"

the locust was in the house, it announced and i took a handkerchief onto it. it jumped and i took it to the garden in the library.

Oktoberfest in Germany
October in Russia

Pentecost

i have been reminded for Pentakost for three days.

two nights ago i completed polishing the leathers of the books, shelves of books, and took the dust of the shelves away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost

someone appeared in my sleep, he showed his thumb straight up. like Roman Emperor in the Arena, "-ah have i been saved, the earthquake is canceled?" "ah, this is Prince Charles", i said.

"you dont know how mighty is my son"

a rectangular top of a rectangular box-bed had slided to the left and a man with pope clothing got out of the bed.

"you have the right not to recognize Him"
i thrilled to the bone and did see my body in the bed.

"He is DeDe"
"-what does it mean? ah, grandfather, DeDe is double spirit, oh He is John Paul?"

He came and He was wide in energy and i was out of my body, i was just able to hear Him. i was able to see my body over the bed.

"is this our new baby?", and He addressed to me.

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 25, 2008 10:00 AM
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ucagin merdivenlerinden cikarken semsiye tutmaktan baska bir incelik daha gorsek. Hizli Trende ruj bulundurun, altyapi icabi, lazim olur belki. yatakli vagonlarda evlilik cuzdani soruyor musunuz Icisleri BAkani? acilisini Barack Obama'ya yetistirin. filmler var anlatilacak, yani siz de okursunuz artik. bu da Hadi CAman'dan ayna olsun. Komedi Dukkanindaki Kayincoya lazim olur. erkeklige geciste babasi sayilir zaten. organize isler bunlar, organ mafyasi, binbir incelikle yazilanlar onlerine atildi resmen. Sutbasili Sabanci da elmali yerine armutlu tefsirini yazar artik,

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 25, 2008 6:10 AM
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Cumhurbaskani Abdullah Gul, "inde deus ab est" hatirliyor musunuz, Rhodes Island ve Timur the Lame icin de bir yer ayirin filmi izlerken, cok sevinirler.

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 25, 2008 5:57 AM
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Ermenistan, Avrupa Birligi Imar ve KAlkinma BAnkasi'ndaki Turkiye'nin Avrupa Birligine Uyeligini Durduran Cekincelerini kaldirdi. Avrupa Birligine Ermenistan ve Rusya ile girmek istiyorum demistim.

bu ulke dil bilmeden Avrupa Birligine girilmesin, Birlesmis Milletler Uyeligi baslatilsin istemistim. Gecici Uyelik verildi. Cumhurbaskani Ermenistan ziyareti icin haketmediler diyordu. Dil kazanildi mi?

YAsar Buyukanit sonra bir ara Bursa'ya ugrayin. Ayiplarinizi temizlersiniz. Turkcell'in promosyon olarak urunlerini verdigi Ulker icin domuz yagi kullaniyor denilince, hakikaten domuz yagi zannetmistik. cocukluk zamani iste. seker mi ramazan mi, hangisini istersiniz BAsbakan Denilen, yasiniz kacti sizin?

Nights in Rodanthe

Richard Gere, St Thomas, India, Syria, Varaka bin Nevfel, Armenia, Muhammed, Hatice the Wife.

Anthe : a moon of Saturn, born with a stick
Saturn : Sickle of God, agriculture

Nights in Rodanthes
to harvest the life of a person to a new wisdom.

hammer and sickle : Scandinavia and Saturn

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 25, 2008 5:25 AM
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bir zamanlar BAsbakani kabul etmeyen, elini sikmayan, torenlerde yanyana gelmeyen, gelirsek ve bir asker sehit olursa ne deriz diyen, hatta savasan, bir genelkurmay baskani bugun BAsbakan Denilen birinin mustekiligi altinda bor madenlerinin ucu bulunmus Susurluk Davasinda Komisyon Uyesi birisine karsi mahkemeye mi gidiyor?

Bodrum'da yemek yesenize YAsar Buyukanit?

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 25, 2008 5:00 AM
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Wrong, leftist, baby-hating Thistlethwaite. Most Americans want most or all abortions outlawed, which requires overturning Roe v. Wade so that their state can pass such restrictions. Many voters do not yet realized this legal necessity, they just want elective abortions outlawed. Legal abortions today are not safe, either, and are responsible for many adverse effects such as sterility, infections, severe blood loss, and premature birth and infant mortality in later preganancies.

Posted by: parkay | September 24, 2008 5:21 PM
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26th of September is Night of Light. other than mighty and powerful, kadir is the magnitude of light. because of practise the magnitude of the light increases. and the Night of Light is brighter and more peaceful than sum of lights of 1000 nights.

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 24, 2008 12:42 PM
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In order to be "moral decision-makers".
and "reduce abortions" . . .

A few "Questions and Answers about Abortion"
might be very helpful:
Q. What is an abortion? When is a baby alive?
A . Look for yourself and see:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/abortion_general.htm

Q. What would God have us do?
A. One answer is found in the Bible:

Deuteronomy 30:19
... choose life,
so that you and your children may live
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy30:19;&version=31;

Posted by: JosephU | September 24, 2008 12:34 PM
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after St Thomas Aquinas, i may say one more case, before pregnancy, women have communications with willing souls to be in body, at night, they ask for permission from the couple.

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 24, 2008 12:31 PM
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before 2000, i was a member of Child Free Movement. it was based in Australia and Holland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childfree later i thought of being a free child and moved different direction.

"elder, if you want to pray to stop me, pray to ease the reason why i do, pray to encourage me, pray for me to feel joy and to be in wisdom"

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 24, 2008 12:18 PM
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i am getting older.

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 24, 2008 11:06 AM
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3G'den gelecek para Anayasa MAhkemesi karari ile kesilmis yuzde elliden daha fazladir, degil mi yoksa, BAsbakan Denilen?

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 24, 2008 11:04 AM
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"siz sofraya alabalik getirene kadar o dalindan koparip kiraz yiyor"

bakin ne demis yazar, bir kadinin hayati bir insanin hayatidir. Anadolu burasi.

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 24, 2008 10:49 AM
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"... sayin Kilicini Kusanmis Kurmay Tegmen, gidin bir dinlenin nehir kenarinda. muhatabinizin sesi cok gur cikiyor, malumunuz kiraz agaclari altinda oturuyor. siz sofraya getirene kadar o dalindan koparip yiyor.

esasinda soylemek istedigim, bir bagirdi mi dagin tepesinden isitiliyor. yani biraz zor olacak ama sacinin pamugu hatrina sofraya koydugu cig tavugu yiyoruz. pisirecek vakitleri yok herhalde, yoruldular birakin kininiza sokun kilicinizi, otururlar sofraya yakinda, buyrun mutfaga gecelim, biz pisirelim ..."

Yuzbasi'nin Kizindan.

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 24, 2008 10:41 AM
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for example, Concerned The Christian Now Liberated, CCNL, she didnt invite me to Denmark, she didnt reply my invitation either. am i boring? ah, i see. first, it is a long journey with unknowns. second, she didnt know me to make up her mind and soul. third, she knows i am joking.

am i boring? ah, i see. not much different for a baby.

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 24, 2008 10:22 AM
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to abhor
have abhored

to abort

"i am not old enough to hurt a human not. but there are humans who are old enough to ask for humans hurt not. i am growing older."

Posted by: lvnlkn.eta | September 24, 2008 10:07 AM
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Abortion boils down to one simple question, when does human life begin?

And one paramount law:

Thou Shalt Not Kill

Added considerations:

The soul (if it exists) separates personkind from the animalkind. If personkind starts at conception then said soul is present at said conception. Aborting/murdering i.e. denying nourishment to or poisoning this body and soul kills the body but not the soul. The RCC says the aborted soul goes to limbo. What rubbish!! The souls from aborted bodies definitely would go to Heaven (if it exists) as these spirits would be perfectly pure.

Do said souls require the future ability to think? To be able to know right from wrong? Do the souls of mentally disabled fetuses, have this ability? Do they then have souls or not? Are they to be considered personkind or only animalkind?

Are our mentally disabled brothers and sisters to be considered animals? Have our senior citizens with dementia or Alzheimers lost their souls and now to be considered animals?

Or maybe we should protect all of our brothers and sisters at every stage of their lives without considering the state of their souls??

Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | September 24, 2008 9:50 AM
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