No Atheists in Recessions

TACOMA - Dean Smoler, known as Associate Christ, was crucified today by a group of hostile fundemendalist Christians and Athiests, bounded together in common cause of what they said was a 'fake' messiah.

Dragged to the top of a mountain and not being able to fly, was mocked by the crowd.

Dean, known for his charitable work for the poor and refusal to be associatted with the established churches, leaves behind a grieving mass of supporters.

JERUSALEM—Overwhelmed by a constant deluge of prayers and appeals for salvation, Jesus Christ announced Monday the hiring of Tacoma, WA, customer-service supervisor Dean Smoler as Associate Christ.

Jesus Christ, swamped by requests for guidance and divine forgiveness, hired 38-year-old Dean Smoler as the first-ever Assistant Savior.

"I've been in need of an Assistant Savior for a long time now, and I'm thrilled to finally have one," Christ told reporters at a press conference aired on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. "Dean is an experienced guy who will really help ease my workload."

With the hiring, effective June 1, Christians seeking spiritual aid or guidance will be able to pray to either Jesus or Dean.

The Spirit of God says to you now, rejoice Christian, rejoice for the race that you are running is not in vain. You do not have to have to look behind you anymore, but learn from your past mistakes and know that the point that I missed in the past will be revealed in the future so that so that you shall never forget.

God says today your past is dead and gone buried in the grave! You are a new creation alive to Christ so when you run the race do not dwell on your past but see with your eyes toward the goal for the future is in your hands!

God says today, have hope believer in Christ for I am giving you tongues of fire to speak to the multitudes in the nations to share with them the wondrous work's of My Son Jesus Christ whom died and rose from the grave whom lives today and is coming again soon.

And God says, My people will reach out and tough those who people say are unclean, they will heal those who say they cannot be healed and they will cure those who say there is no cure!

And God says, miracle upon miracle is coming to the nations of those who do not know Christ. And there will be such a power belief in the atmosphere that unlike the belief of Christ in His hometown the faith will be so strong that you will see unbelievable miracles like never before. And God says are these not the times that I spoke of in Joel? Are these not the times I spoke of in Acts?

God says, My heart is crying out for Chicago, My heart is crying out for Chicago, My heart is crying out for Chicago. For in Chicago they say, we have the man, we have the one. And I tell you now do not say, or do not or do not call any person the one or any person the man who is to be the President for I tell you I will lead this nation with My servants!

God says Chicago you will awaken to your destiny! For I am filling your streets with prayer warriors who are coming out of their prayer closets and from their hidden places to proclaim the Good News of Christ in the streets.Thugs and gangsters in Chicago shall say, did we not hear the Word of God and burn with passion to know Him greater?

For the Spirit of God says, He looked upon Joplin and said, this city, this town is the show Me city of Missouri for this is where they will see the abundance of wealth come from renewable energy sources! And God says this city shall be renewed! The old is going down and the new is coming up and what you have monuments for now you shall have new monuments for great achievement in the future, says the Spirit of God.

There are only a few athiest who understand irony.

the scripture and life.

the scripture deal and work mainly with the conscience and morality of mankind more than it deal with the methdology of farming or the metallurgy of the metals or trade or the economy in general all this is left to mankind to seek,search ,grow and compete. ,after, being fortified and supplemented by the light and guidance of the scripture.

1-look how much advanced the methodolgy of farming and look how much hunger in the world.

2-look how much advanced the atomic power and look how much bombs ready to be droped on mankind heads and lands.

3-lack of the scripture and the affect of the scripture is what is mising.,mankind is being left to his/her secularism.

4-the big question is,
why mankind leav the scripture for secularism?

why in ,*juchristiansecularisticapitalisticdarwinistic*,society people are schismed between the conscience and morality of the scripture and the consicence and morality of secularism ?why people vote for god on sunday morning but the rest of the week(monday to friday) vote and live secularism?,

what is and where is the wrong spot?is it the scripture? or the secularism? or both ?

Brambleton said:
"I fully understand that the "tune-up and tires" theory works mathmatically. Unfortunately, those of us not living in utopia also understand that it is an impossible endeavor that comes up dreadfully short in terms of a solution. I just can't believe he said it with a straight face!"

He didn't offer it as a solution. He was pointing out that opening new areas to oil exploration would make such a small dent in increasing our total oil availability--estimated to be an increase of about 1%, and not for 10-20 years--that we could do more, right now, simply by keeping tires inflated and cars tuned, certainly not a utopian concept(?!). Republicans like yourself apparently missed the irony and the point of the contrast.

Ms. Brooks-Thistlethwaite is usually measured and thoughtful, so I was disappointed to see the "cheap shot" to which she has resorted in the title and opening line of her post. I don't disagree with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th paragraphs of her post.

I am an atheist (with an honors degree in economics, incidentally), and I am not alone among atheists in feeling profoundly insulted, AGAIN, by the "no atheists in foxholes" epithet and this new amendment about "no atheists in recessions." These are more than toss-away cliches, and they are manifestly inaccurate, unless 8 or 12 or 16 percent of the U.S. population -- as well as the unknown thousands who feel they can't answer poll questions truthfully -- suddenly do not count as human beings, workers and consumers and can be safely ignored.

I have not gone to Arlington National Cemetery or other cemeteries to count the graves of atheists who died as atheists in defense of the Constitution and their fellow Americans' rights. But I feel confident that atheists' graves are there.

Whatever practical or ethical teachings might be derived from the Christian Bible and found to be useful in dealing with economic hard times, none of those teachings is unique to Christianity, or even to monotheism or to religion in general. How do I know this? Because I am a religiously literate American (I've even purchased and read Prothero's book) as well as an atheist.

Radiohead - All I Need

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrCalO5BDs

dontneed:

You missed it, she is commenting on the fact that the question excludes non-believers, not that there aren't athiest's in fox holes.

I've read her column before and even if she doesn't hold your politics, she tries to be inclusive of all beliefs in her answers.

And, as you now must see, isn't above sarcasm.

Thistlethwaite is a theologian, she has studied this BS all her life, invested her entire self and her entire meaning into this subject.

What do we expect her to say about atheists? Our presence in the world, our mere existence, without any comment from us at all belittles everything she believes; and every moment of every day we don't jump into a foxhole and start praying disturbs the very ground on which she and her kind walk.

Many of the poor *stay* poor because they feel their lives are not in their control. They see other's successes as due to luck, being born with a silver spoon, or because of some evil plan at work which doesn't include them.

Others use it as an alibi for failure. I'm poor, why should I try?

I was poor, I even lived on the streets for several years but never drank or used drugs, there are some street people like that you know.

Well I got tired of it, started working as a slave doing temp labor so I could pay for a room, got a student loan, went to university and 5 years later finally got my degree ... I'll tell you what - I don't owe the poor anything, I don't feel sorry for people who aren't willing to pay the dues necessary to succeed.

The only people I owe now are the student loan providers.

And I certainly don't feel sorry for people who aren't willing to try. Life sucks and then you die, if you're so unwilling to try because you might fail, then you are a failure.
If you think you're so small that nothing you can do will help, that your only hope is the magical fairies and random luck, then you are already a failure.

I like that saying: God helps those who help themselves. Stop thinking your god is going to help you if you don't help yourself.

If money is your God it is a sin if you have money but it does not rule you then it is not a sin.

Biblically the problem is never the money itself but ones attitude towards the money.

David was Rich most of his life Solomon and Abraham were the morale equivalent of Bill Gates in their time. God never asked them to give up everything and follow me. It wasn't necessary because they were already trying to follow God and money wasn't in their way or for that matter the things attached to money as was the Rich young rulers problem.

Indigo Girls - Shame On You

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbJrHGLwFlg&feature=related

"While I agree conceptually that the New Testament does not support the lifestyle of wealthy Americans, I take great offense at your use of the "no atheists in foxholes" saw. It shows an underlying and possibly unconscious bigotry on your part."

You missed it, Vincent. She was meerly commenting on the question excluding nonbelievers.

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

This web site responds to someone who is taking the words literally and not metaphorically and makes assumptions that I would not make about being a human on Earth.

For example, I see too many unhappy wealthy people and enough content poor people to agree with the following:

"These verses put a decidedly different spin on the beatitudes. When considered alongside other verses, they stress poverty as a virtue and wealth (and not simply the seeking of wealth) as a vice.

Regardless of which version (if any) is correct, the first four beatitudes address traits and conditions that are generally undesirable or, in the case of meekness, taken advantage of."

I don't care if what he said is origional or not, only that he put himself way out there with his ideas that were not the norm of the time. And he suffered the ultimate sacrifice for it.

Jesus, like Bhudda, tried to rise out of the selfish human desires and spread contentment to all people.

And, of course, he didn't even write the books used to quote him. I did say the bible, but I include the Gnostic Gospels in this also.

Friend,
Here is a good break-down of the Sermon on the Mount and why it is a terrible guide for living.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_mount

Also, there are no original propositions in the Sermon on the Mount. Just something to think about.

While I agree conceptually that the New Testament does not support the lifestyle of wealthy Americans, I take great offense at your use of the "no atheists in foxholes" saw. It shows an underlying and possibly unconscious bigotry on your part. It accuses any professed atheist of either being insincere or cowardly. Please visit the site of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation to get a sense how how many brave and honest atheists are serving in our armed forces.
Finally, it is also a misleading title. You do not talk in the article at all about the numbers of religious people swelling during recession, which is what your title implies. In fact, currently the number of religious people is dropping (though I doubt there is any connection to current economic conditions).
That said, it's no surprise the vast majority of Americans turn to religion in time of difficulty; the vast majority of Americans are believers of some kind. That's like saying "the vast majority of Americans watch prime-time TV during recession."
The fact that you can dismiss roughly 10% of the US population as either liars or cowards as the opening line of an article that otherwise ignores those Americans is despicable.

That is the point, isn't it.

"Further embracing religious ignorance is not a solution"

Isn't that what she is saying? There are good moral lessons in the Holy Books of the world that the foundation of our civilization
is built on. Yes, we need to be learned enough not to take every word literally since these were written at a time when the perspective
was not "global" but tribal. And, of course, our civilization has benefited from becoming more secular.

And thank you for seeing beyond yourself and serving our country.

"Utterly failing to comprehend, as most liberals do that the plight of the poor has grown worse even as the bureaucracy set up to help them has grown by leaps and bounds."

Maybe we should just give a decent wage to someone who works.

Walk the path of an elderly couple who worked their whole life to contribute to our communities, country, and world, only to
not have enough money to live a decent retirement. We continue to allow employers to pay wages that will not give people
a decent retirement, good medical care, and a respectible living.

These gov't benefits are not enough and not doing the job.

How many people are living on a minimum wage in this country?

What is their reaction when their family gets sick and they can't get proper medical care?

Do you walk all the neighborhoods in your town? You should.

"But as a guide to the way to live one's life? As a source of ongoing education?
As a source of useful information to get one from A to B in today's world? As a
reference work that one returns to to gain greater insight from as one matures?
Well, I don't count the Bible as being "that" kind of educational tool."

Not the Sermon on the Mount, not Ecclesiastes?

Wise people I know base their life on the Bible.

---------------------------------------------

Long ago, my poor, elderly father-in-law once told me about when he had cancer and how
Jesus came down from heaven, reached into his body, and pulled out the cancer. As a young man in this foreign environment of a poor community, could barely keep my eyes from rolling up in my head.

I thought he was so ignorant.

Later, in a buffet-type restaurant, we were eating with the "white people, the americans"
as he told me, and a poor, raged women came into the restaurant to be greeted
by a chorus of "Get out of here, you never pay". That poor old man went up to the
counter and slapped down money to pay for her meal.

I thought he was so wise.

Ms. Thistlethwaite,

Further embracing religious ignorance is not a solution to overcoming the more general ignorance that has led to our economic serfdom and our reliance on vast, unaccountable food and supply chains. KNOWLEDGE is the antidote to ignorance, not mystical bronze-age tribal hocus-pocus.

Sincerely,

An atheist married to an atheist who spent 10 years in the military, including some time in foxholes.

The Smell of Canine stew:

Fact: OBAMA was taught to Eat "DOG"-meat: Soo

Please, keep ye Pet DOG(s) away from OBAMA & Family!

Also Cat's?

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AS usual Ms. Thistlewaite looks at the plight of the poor in this country and automatically assumes that it must be the fault of their bosses. Utterly failing to comprehend, as most liberals do that the plight of the poor has grown worse even as the bureaucracy set up to help them has grown by leaps and bounds. Bosses are no greedier now than they have ever been so why are the working poor worse off?

IN a word government.

This is astounding. Ms Thistlethwaite wants the poor of this country to read their Bibles and become socialists, blaming the capitalist system for their low socio-economic status.

Contrast their theological illiteracy with Thistlethwaite's economic illiteracy. Even theological illiterates can figure out that we have better living through modern free markets than societies that follow a sort of Biblical pre-industrial socialism.

Paul writes:

"I bristle at the use of the old cliche "there are no atheists in foxholes."

Perhaps we should come up with a similar bromide for the religious. How about, "there are no intellectuals in church?"

Such a statement shares the same values as the "no atheists in foxholes" bromide: it's patently false and just as insensitive.

Hope everybody's happy now!

Re: No Atheists in Recessions

I bristle at the use of the old cliche "there are no atheists in foxholes." The unstated thought that underlies this is that atheists don't really mean it: when life becomes really dire they'll believe, pray, convert, etc. The use of the foxhole cliche strikes me as patronizing and arrogant.

What is a "vast majority" and does that necessarily mean everyone?

Dear Brambleton -

You raise a legitimate question about who a president picks to advise him on foreign policy. I doubt that any president in history surrounded himself with more inside-the-establishment foreign-policy "experts" who knew "something/anything about foreign affairs" than did gw bush.

Look where that got us.

Last I looked at the Iraq scales, Obama was keeping one side of the scales glued to the floor while bush's foreign policy experts were on the other side, floating high in the air and clinging to the rims of the scale, hoping not to fall off the side and into the justice awaiting them in The Hague. That particular scale is hardly "tipped" in Obama's favor. Nailed down is more like it.

As far as VP choice for Obama, who cares outside of the media? We know it won't be Hillary and we know it won't be anyone who Obama feels would a) overshadow him personality-wise or b) is not in step with his stated positions, while it will be c) someone who could possibly help him carry a swing state.

As far as McCain goes, we also know a few things about who his VP choice will be: a) someone younger than him, b) someone who is less prone to making the disturbing foreign and domestic policy gaffes that McCain makes on a thrice-daily basis and c) someone who won't mind simulating sex on stage with Cindy McCain when she enters the topless Miss Buffalo Chip beauty contest at Sturgis next year (at least if Teflon John's pronouncements yesterday about wishing to enter his WIFE in said contest were anything but shameless pandering to a bunch of bikers).

The media will try to make a big deal out of this, but both Obama and McCain will shoot down the middle on their VP choices.

As far as asking Americans to spend 5 minutes and 50 cents to adjust their tire pressure being "Utopian" - really? Do you really think that's more Utopian than the idea of getting states and the federal government to overturn laws against off-shore drilling or building more nuke plants in our NIMBY society?

Hmm? You live in an area of America I'm not familiar with.

Mr. Mark,

I fully understand that the "tune-up and tires" theory works mathmatically. Unfortunately, those of us not living in utopia also understand that it is an impossible endeavor that comes up dreadfully short in terms of a solution. I just can't believe he said it with a straight face!

As an aside, should be an interesting VP choice for NObama. Hmmm, do I go with someone who's been around for a few years, knows something/anything about foreign affairs, is part of the inside establishment and; therefore, proves my "change for change" platform is bunk? Or do I go with someone who is as hopelessly naive as I am?

Barack Obama - The Audacity of Hype.

Beware the Warren Harding Effect.

Friend notes that Joseph Campbell said:

"Greek and Latin and biblical literature used to be part of everyone's education."

Well, there's education, and then there's education.

Kids are taught algebra, calculus and trigonometry in high school. Very few of them actively use what they learn in these branches of math studies once they graduate, even as they use basic math and arithmetic skills on a daily basis.

Similarly, those kids who take Latin don't typically go around speaking Latin once graduated. The same isn't true of kids who learn French, German, Italian and Russian in school. These languages have a more-practical application in today's society.

In other words, some things you learn in school as tools to help you throughout your life, and other thing you learn because they teach you how to learn, or because they give you entry into thinking creatively and critically.

Which brings us to "Biblical literature" being a part of everyone's education.

I'm all for it, as long as it's limited to the literature classes in the public schools, and taught as literature, and not as divine revelation or scientific and historical fact. There are just too many references to the Bible in other literature and in everyday life to not have a working knowledge of the thing. Until society tires of reading about genocide-as-a-god-given blessing, one will need to be acquainted with the Bible, just as one would do well to acquaint oneself with the writings of the Enlightenment era and the works of Thomas Paine to better understand and gain a perspective on the philosophy behind the content of our nation's foundational documents.

But as a guide to the way to live one's life? As a source of ongoing education? As a source of useful information to get one from A to B in today's world? As a reference work that one returns to to gain greater insight from as one matures? Well, I don't count the Bible as being "that" kind of educational tool.

I'm ok with the athiest 'hook'.

I like what you had to say and how you said it.

Joseph Campbell said:

One of our problems today is that we are not well acquainted with the literature of the spirit. We're interested in the news of the day and the problems of the hour. It used to be that the university campus was a kind of hermetically sealed-off area where the news of the day did not impinge upon your attention to the inner life and to the magnificent human heritage we have in our A great tradition--Plato, Confucius, the Buddha, Goethe, and others who speak of the eternal values that have to do with the centering of our lives. When you get to be older, and the concerns of the day have all been attended to, and you turn to the inner life--well, if you don't know where it is or what it is, you'll be sorry. Greek and Latin and biblical literature used to be part of everyone's education.

Dear Brambleton -

Question: what do you think of McCain's proposal to build more nuke plants? Talk about a short-term solution!

Nuke power accounts for barely 6% of the power currently generated in the world. To make a significant impact, nuke power would need to account for 25% of the world's power - a 4-fold increase.

And therein lies the rub:

There is currently enough nuke fuel identified and mine-able (including reclaimed fuel from warheads, etc) to fuel existing plants for roughly 50 years. Expand the number of plants, and that number drops significantly. Build the number of nuke plants necessary to make a significant dent in where the world gets its power (ie: a 4-fold increase) and you have enough fuel to power nuke plants for a meager 12 years.

For the nuke industry to grow and sustain itself, new sources of fuel must be identified and new ways of extracting said fuels must be developed. This is NOT an inexpensive proposition. Setting aside the bad side effects of nuke power (ie: waste, disastrous accidents, etc), it's clear that nuclear power is probably the least-viable alternative out there. Yet, McCain is trumpeting it as some necessary panacea.

One wonders - is that all he's got?

Brambleton writes:

"And I would've figured your allegiance to Obama might have changed after he remarked that we don't need more drilling for oil, we just need to properly inflate our tires and start getting regular tune-ups. LOL. (I know, I know. In theory his remarks hold some weight. But is this the best he's got? Tune-ups and tires?)"

Funny how Rs try to frame things they disagree with as the idea of some lone politician, ergo reducing their remarks to something that is political and nothing more. So, despite the overwhelming science that proves global warming and man's impact on the same, the issue becomes "what Al Gore thinks." When it comes to ways to save fuel, McCain attempts (unsuccessfully) to mock Obama by handing out tire gauges (for a $25 donation, of course!).

Obama's "remarks" simply repeat sound scientific information about engine tunings and tire inflation that are recommendations of NASCAR, the first bush administration, the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration and others. Indeed, the ghw bush administration estimated that keeping tires properly inflated would save Americans roughly 8 MILLION gallons of gas PER DAY. That amounts to saving roughly 3 BILLION gallons of gasoline PER YEAR. Perhaps you find such things 'in theory" and not worthy of consideration, but UNLIKE McSAME'S PROPOSALS, Obama's tire-n-tune-up strategy would have an IMMEDIATE EFFECT on our fuel consumption.

BTW - the website Politico has checked out Obama's claims and finds them to be true. Here: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/politifact-find.html

As far as granting the oil companies more acreage on which to drill for oil, the oil companies are CURRENTLY sitting on 68-MILLION ACRES of leased public land that they are NOT currently drilling. Why is that? (AP story here:...http://www.theledger.com/article/20080721/NEWS/807210477/0/NEWS&title=Unused_Oil_Companies__Sites_Questioned...)

As far as it being "all Barack's got" - you can read his comprehensive energy policies at his website.

Your characterization of this issue is as laughable and childish as is McCain's.

This episode is just another unfortunate blunder for the McCain campaign who seem hell bent on making their candidate into a laughing stock.

Mr. Mark,

"Today's job market is even tighter than was the market when I experienced the angst of extended unemployment. My advice to those currently out of work - get off your knees and get out there every day until you find something, anything to bring in an income. Treat your job hunt as the full time job that it is and take responsibility for your success when you finally land something.

And, don't forget to vote for Obama."

---> For the most part, I'm in complete agreement. But Christians are no different when it comes to seeking employment. Your suggestion that they don't have jobs because they choose to pray about it instead of actively pursuing opportunities is absurd. I pray for the Lord's help and guidance every morning but that doesn't mean I sit in my office and wait for my clients tax forms to magically prepare themselves.

---> And I would've figured your allegiance to Obama might have changed after he remarked that we don't need more drilling for oil, we just need to properly inflate our tires and start getting regular tune-ups. LOL. (I know, I know. In theory his remarks hold some weight. But is this the best he's got? Tune-ups and tires?)

The article refers to a survey of "low-wage workers in the United States," and then implies that we can make some assumption about the economy and atheists. The title implies that there are fewer atheists now than when the economy was better, but actually low-wage workers and the less educated have never had many atheists among them. It's one of the reasons politicians like to refer to "elitists" as code for "people different than you." This is kind of like surveying lawyers, finding that the vast majority of them are not opposed to frivolous lawsuits, and then claiming "Everyone likes frivolous lawsuits when the economy is bad!"

Overall, I like the article. I think the title doesn't have much to do with the point of the article, and certainly it is not backed up within it.

Re: your facetious remarks that there are no atheists in foxholes or in a recession:

1. if there are no atheists in foxholes, then who was manning the foxholes of the "godless Communists?"

2. this atheist has - since gw bush was selected - experience two periods of extended unemployment. Never once during those periods did I feel the need to invoke the name of a deity, nor did I feel the need to ask any deity for help.

My Bible-thumping family members were praying away for me. It didn't seem to do much good. The hard work of applying for a new job - which anyone caught in a similar situation can tell you is a full-time-plus job that pays one absolutely nothing - and spending my own precious resources to get to interviews eventually paid off.

Today's job market is even tighter than was the market when I experienced the angst of extended unemployment. My advice to those currently out of work - get off your knees and get out there every day until you find something, anything to bring in an income. Treat your job hunt as the full time job that it is and take responsibility for your success when you finally land something.

And, don't forget to vote for Obama.

The shallow crust of middle-class Christian society, glued together with sound-bite theology and "ready-made" corporate prayer has finally cracked under the weight of genuine spiritual distress. What lies beneath this shattered crust, in my opinion, is unfortunately nothing more than a society of souls in protracted moral foreclosure.

While the Athiests can legitimately cash in their sneers at this moment in time, the theologians should seriously think about hiring more quailfied help. And they wont get it by delicately reviewing inflated resumes of the newly graduated Divinity students that they secretly favor.

I have seen Christian preachers aged 25 "lead" a congregation. I doubt that they have had any experience with moral and significant dilemmas and with the unkindness and hateful ways of the world. How can these people possibly offer any mature spiritual guidance and insight to the many Americans that now genuinely seek it?

Superb article and quite to the point! The strain of 'rugged individualism' in American tradition is often used as an excuse make complex issues simple such as the idea 'all you have to do is work hard to get ahead', and to ignore the plight of others less fortunate. Social Darwinism is alive and well in our current culture.