Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite
Professor, Chicago Theological Seminary

Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite

Former president of Chicago Theological Seminary (1998-2008), Thistlethwaite is a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress.

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Ghostly Polling Data

This Gallup poll gives us the surface data; it is a poll, it does not interpret. The pollsters also acknowledge that they did not ask respondents to distinguish between “metaphorical” and “literal” beliefs. In regard to the startling statistic that between 30 and 40 percent of Americans believe in ghosts and haunted houses, I assume this means the pollsters did not want to delve too closely into the question of whether the respondent thought he or she saw ectoplasmic slime as in Ghostbusters, or the effects of unburied pain on human life.

When I read the results of this amazing Gallup poll and I tried to interpret the results in religious terms, all I could think about was the spiritual reality of the destructiveness of human pain, especially when that pain is ignored. I think that all religions attempt to make sense of human life and the ubiquity of human pain. I often begin my class on Introduction to Theology with the statement, “Theology begins where the pain is.” I have no special insight into whether this is what the Gallup survey documents; but I do know that a long time ago, a teacher of African religions taught me that unappeased ancestors come back to haunt you. And I learned the basic reality of that in a church graveyard.

I learned the truth about ghosts and spirits as unburied human pain by walking around in the graveyard of my first pastorate in western North Carolina. Seminary did not prepare me for this experience; learning about African indigenous religions from an African professor did.

Rigobert Ladikapo, from a country in west Africa now called the Republic of Benin and Professor of African Religions, taught me that western Christianity barely touches the surface of the spiritual dimensions of religion and knows next to nothing about what harm is done by not acknowledging the ghosts of the past. For example, he said, in his village, everyone had been converted to Christianity by missionaries, but when the Christian pastor completed a funeral in the church, everyone also trooped out the graveyard and poured libations for the ancestors so they would not come back and haunt the village. Dead ancestors who are not appeased, he taught, come back and cause a lot of trouble.

As a student pastor in my first church in western North Carolina, I was floundering. No sooner had I arrived than the church was convulsed by conflict—there were rumors of past uproars, but it seemed that the novelty of a young woman pastor who was also a Yankee (!) had heated the congregation to the boiling point.

In despair over my failure to do anything constructive with this situation, I was walking in the graveyard adjacent to the church. I started reading the headstones. And then I started reading the headstones very carefully. The names, the dates and the dominance of one family began to form a pattern. The name Gouch appeared on many headstones. The living Mrs. Gouch was giving me fits—but the real problems and the unrecognized, unrequited pain still drifting over from the graveyard was the real cause. What the headstones in the graveyard showed me was that the spirits of these ancestors of the church had been unappeased for nearly a century. Dr. Ladikapo’s voice echoed in my head. I needed to find an acceptable way to lay at least some of these ghosts to rest.

I researched the Gouches and the other names on the headstones and I started a church history group inviting others, including the many Gouches, to join me in our search. We learned the stories and we honored the ancestors and we acknowledged the pain, the past hurts and the losses and we got some of these ancestors finally to stay in the ground at the graveyard where they belonged. But not all of them—undealt with pain that had persisted for 50 years and bled from one generation to the next did not, and indeed it cannot, fully succumb to a study group.

Take what you will from this ghostly polling data from Gallup, but I do know this. Pain lives on as harm from generation to generation and it literally haunts those who will not bury their dead.

By Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite  |  July 16, 2008; 6:00 PM ET
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no matter if He comes not, we shall watch the match. we shall be in the audience. i have a radio i shall listen, i dont have a television any more.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 20, 2008 9:28 AM
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what i want to say To President of Armenia is that President of Turkey may have some particular measures established before hand other than the prefabrics of the people in Anadolu Turkey.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 20, 2008 9:23 AM
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Her MAjesty have established and granted a budget for the two royal noble universities.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 20, 2008 8:37 AM
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the electromagnetic energy on mobile phones - 900/1800/2700 MHZ could be changed to a different scale that not bothers the body and nature, to (alpha beta gama) TETA frequency to calm and tranquil people and nature.

Oxford and Cambridge saved a budget 200.000 USD for 200 Prophettors, to have the precise structure of islam for common wealth in public of UK. One river, two boats, sailing the whole length taking notes.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 20, 2008 8:33 AM
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Serj Sarkisyan, President of Armenia,

President of Turkey that You have invited for Football Match is a Knight besides Queen Elizabeth that Her MAjesty Granted with Her Own Hands.

but Lecturers of Armenian Culture Department at the University in Nevsehir may be in the stadium.

what can we do for penqueens on the shore in front of Brasil, the Agarthan port? President of Armenia, do You have an idea about who pushed them to the shore?

Posted by: interpreter native | July 20, 2008 6:17 AM
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2009 is the Year for Astronomy, and i see there shall be uncountable logs for the lattice of light and combination of colours from planets, where people have interfaces according to the date of construction of the body and the first breath out of womb, please feel free to subscribe my email for e-newsletters for astrologs.

are these dates established again in the future of the person, as a second phase, when the beginning of education and the holy breath and initiation put in? is this again caterpillar cacoon? or is a child already a butterfly?

www.radikal.com.tr/Default.aspx?aType=Detay&ArticleID=889291&Date=20.07.2008&CategoryID=79

Oneida have come to the festival in the neighbour city YAlova.


Posted by: interpreter native | July 20, 2008 6:00 AM
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what i want to say, the language we have been talking in and studying, CAroline Casey reminds, in the Bible and Quran, with Apostels and Prophets, are beneficial and vital.

lets move on.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 20, 2008 4:50 AM
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Mrs Sally Quinn,
would Virginia Essene accept to interview with You?

www.sharefoundationnetwork.com/vessene.htm

Posted by: jazz.intext@gmail.com | July 20, 2008 4:28 AM
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"Jesus Christ" is referred as "Muhammed".

special thanks to King Fahd for having shared the blood and bread of His table with me as a Father cares His Son. He has paid my atonement.

we have suffered for Iran and Arabistan were far from Anadolu, the two ancestor houses, children know how hard it is to be away from ancestors. King Fahd is in relations with President of France and His Holiness.

this morning i whistled again,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzs1d1kIMBg

i read the photos of public people, especially on newspapers. i would love to talk after an Egyptian Priestess who has a few hours on a TV Show broadcasting familiar physically available funny and thrilling cases.

Pinar Altug is "Fountain Red-Feather", Tug is Attorney, Consultant and LAwyer, Prime Ministers and Presidents put on "TUG" on their Heads.

she is married to Yagmur Atacan, "You shall pour Rain", joking, "Rain of Ancestor Souls". i shall study "Saltuk" today, a state in Erzurum.

yesterday i heard this in Turkish, "you have taken the teacher "master, conqueror" of my heart to my knees", as every drop of rain nurtures the earth and soul.

Posted by: Anonymous | July 20, 2008 3:05 AM
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And, Interpreter:

"Peg&Place,

are You Paul in MySpace?"


If I'm Paul in *any* space, feel free to sue.

Paganplace. Actual word, actual Pagan. Place cause it's a reminder to me I'm not supposedly trying to speak for me as a person. Even if it's just a song title that happened to come up the first day I posted here. :) Still. Pagan. Friendly-neighborhood, Mother-loving, Pagan. Who ya gonna call. You can say it. :)

Posted by: Paganplace | July 19, 2008 11:42 PM
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"Rigobert Ladikapo, from a country in west Africa now called the Republic of Benin and Professor of African Religions, taught me that western Christianity barely touches the surface of the spiritual dimensions of religion and knows next to nothing about what harm is done by not acknowledging the ghosts of the past."

Oh, Mothers, you ain't spoke the half of it, Ma'am.


Some things you can't just recite words at.

Posted by: Paganplace | July 19, 2008 11:32 PM
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i have heard for a few days as "come to Foreign Ministry of France", i think it is the Embassy of France or French Culture Center in BEyoglu Taksim, that i had given the booklet of poems to the secretary.

thank You, Mrs Sally Quinn, "Music Pipe" Caroline Casey, Professor Susan Thistlethwaite, this last message is attached with Necm 53 The Star from "Relative Architecture Coming Closer, You Shall Read Further" simply Quran,

here is the Srian Zoologist in the Circle of Animals, with the Rod that had been given under the Silver Sun in front of Tents with Fires, once on top of a tree on top of a mountain where stars and the silver sun in the navy sky was clear.

Posted by: interpreter native jazz.intext@gmail.com | July 19, 2008 1:27 PM
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Louvre, Wolf, Sirius, PAris, Museum, Noah, Ireland, Ship, Astronomy, to Nikolas SArkozy, thank You, for making it a shiny day.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 19, 2008 12:09 PM
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ogb3NHtTvw

Posted by: interpreter native | July 19, 2008 11:56 AM
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did not?

Nikolas SArkozy, Président de la France! You are a Lucky Man! this is a gift to a Man! this is the recent one that a woman opened a flower with a man and shall give the fruit soon, and a blessing for all of us on EArth! in front of our eyes! who did see this with their eyes in this life time, but cinemas!?

dear CAroline Casey, could You check Her times? France Irish Italian Scottish John McCain Pasific way.

this is the health in Anadolu, with Evolution and Communism with Apostels! who would not go this way?

Posted by: interpreter native | July 19, 2008 9:59 AM
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'Comme Si De Rien N'Etait'
Come See The Rain, Do Not Wait!

there is a gift in Her Album, i hear Her Heart in Her Words, this is the end of apartheid! yes! apartheid ended! apartheid ended!

there was "Gimme Hope Johannah" in my tongue when i got up in the morning, and i had a sufficiently strong breath for a whistle that surprised neighbours.


Posted by: interpreter native | July 19, 2008 9:32 AM
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"Serge King" had a planetary book "Kahuna Healing", based on verbal healing and health in speech.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 19, 2008 9:09 AM
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Tintin

Professor Thistlethwaite,

this morning before i woke up i did see people standing still, looking at the sky listening to planets, on a slightly rising road, there were two houses on the near left and far right.

Prime Minister of Belgium is in Prime Ministry. they are somehow familiar to me.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 19, 2008 9:08 AM
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in Dalyan Mugla, the land of carettas and green plants in water, with healthy mud, the daughter of CArdwel Couple fell into swimming pool and left the building knocking her head, her heart no more knocking on the doors of heaven. she didnt come back. and she is in heaven.

the hospitals were busy, the land owners could not open the door for this guest that we had waited for. this is not the first case i have met. we shall make this land heaven on EArth again. and the doors of the couples and individuals shall not be closed again.

i am sorry, Her Majesty.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 19, 2008 7:24 AM
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in South America, Priests didnt make love with women, but slaves made love with the wives of priests. as far as i know, the energy on children were the purest energy for priests to exchange, considering pure untouched energy of priests, undisturbed with women and parental relations. slaves learned and got educated into freedom with the wives of priests, through the energy exchange.

in Didim MAnisa, there was homosexuality and wives of farmers were in service to priests, the imbalance in parents and families. Churchill is known as the successor of Family of Jesus Christ, and when United Kingdom moved to America, they have met the Native Americans, especially in Central America.

His Holiness is in Australia. Popes and Church, are the intended-to-be-truth-and-virtual-this-time practise of Atlantean Inheritance after the flood.

maybe these explanations are raw and accepted-as-not-ethic, but i want to forward the norms of today's web of consciousness, that the energy manifests within.

these are the moulds that we put our water into and exchange in public. the dense energy is known as water, the dense energy of priests, words and prayers are visible as water of mouth and fountain.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 19, 2008 7:08 AM
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the longest chain of letters in Turkish is "Cekoslovakyalilastiramadiklarimizdanmiymissiniz", "have you been one of those that we have not been able to convert to Czechoslovakians".

i have added a few letters to the previous version of this word, and i have to check whether there are more to add after the Events of Norway and Zecheria, this is maybe an itching or an i-ching one.

i thank Condaliza Rice for the negotiations with Iran in Holy Spirit, Messengership, Courierness, High Vision of Doves and Eagles, in this case for Enrichment of Father and Son, Uranus, in Iran.

i thank for the interview with CArolyn CAsey, Irish is the closest language to Atlantean, and Norway had apologized to Ireland. Mrs SAlly Quinn, some fat between your throat and chin would be useful for your words to flow easily.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 19, 2008 6:53 AM
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i was a "beauty-maker" too, i had practised "shell-mass" and "pearl" crafts. for some reason had to leave. but completed the wisdom later.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 1:00 PM
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caterpillar makes the cacoon with the water in its mouth, other than spider.

caterpillar

cater : provide, supply (food), care for
pillar : column, support with columns, to rise (spine), chairman,

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 12:57 PM
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in Taha Verse, Moses puts His Hand into His Armpit, "white hand". and Ahmet prophet takes the "cottons" inside His JAcket.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 12:47 PM
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Molla Fenari was a caterpillar cacoon processor, his life-path "belief-structure" is "beauty-maker", he is known with threads and cloths. Bursa is the last station on Silk-Road.

Queen Elizabeth had purchased several in Her visit this year on MAy 14th. Ahmet prophet puts "cotton", from His Jacket, for Molla Fenari to be able to see "clear".

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 12:42 PM
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so what is cotton on the eyes of Molla Fenari that Ahmet prophet puts onto his eyes from the jacket of Ahmet prophet, with His water of mouth, and while Molla Fenari was in his bed time during the night?

jacket, cotton and water of mouth. lets see.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 12:36 PM
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Karamanogullari in Iran are People with Seal of Solomon. Ataturk is also from KAramanogullari. Karamanogullari had moved to Iran and Greece.

Taha is the Verse from Quran that prophet Ahmet had asked Molla Fenari for His speech on Taha Verse, while Molla Fenari had been unaware of Verses.

www.maaref-foundation.com/english/lib/quran/light/light_09/020/index.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamano%C4%9Flu
tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamano%C4%9Fullar%C4%B1_Beyli%C4%9Fi

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 12:33 PM
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the water of mouth and the cottons on the eyes,

Molla Fenari, yes i must explain this, especially water of mouth. in this city, there has been a beloved from a village of Greece, had education in Egypt in astronomy maths literature and wisdom, had married to the daughter of prince of state near Mediterranean Sea, had been invited by prince of state near MArmara SEa,

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 10:17 AM
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do You see what i see in the blue eyes, Professor? WOuld You like to be Back to the Future?

i would like to come back in the future! i would love to be with the woman that i see in the tele-vision, either Judie Foster goes or Keira Knightley comes, in her mother's text.

video.eksenim.mynet.com/umoo33/reklam/96525/

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 8:53 AM
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you know the two lizards between two walls, one of them is nailed in the foot, the other brings food for 15 years. lizards are able to leave parts. so who are those two lizards?

video.eksenim.mynet.com/ibrahim_kelen/Bu_kadar_da_guzel_reklam_olmaz/163606/

in this city, we put cottons onto eyes of the vehicle they have left to us, of our beloveds when they have passed away, after a hot water bath.

"they murdered our son, their son should not live". Israel, may the story of these cottons and water of mouth be a gift to your family. pamuk Bursa'ya nereden gelirmis ki? Izmir'den mi? Adana'dan mi?

video.eksenim.mynet.com/tevfik_yakut/mimik_hareketleri/163609/

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 8:41 AM
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yani diyorum ki ODTU'yu yikmaniz ile birsey olmaz, BAsbakan Denilen Arapbasina bir sorsun Ahmet peygamberin topragindan Bursa Emirsultan'a getirilmis mi? bana kizdi Somuncu misali "ya biz de ayrilirsak" diye ama, olsun. bu CHALLAH, mayali susamli yumurtali pide hani, Ramazanda yeniyor degil mi, iftarda? guzel.

"hosgelisler ola Mustafa Kemal Pasa, askerinle milletin bayraginla cok yasa! geldi be, sukurler olsun, valilik onunde kameraya beni sol elimle selam verirken cektiler, beyaz fanila siyah pantolon beyaz ayakkabi vardi ustumde, otobusun kapisinda mavi gomlegiyle"

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 6:41 AM
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heavy hydrogen, Israel Bible and electromagnetics that works to allign hydrogen atoms as thy are in MAgneic Resonance Imaging,

President Bush, did Roman Emperors make love with women, or was it what Atlanta America High priests did not but slaves did? which is the select roma genetics? Atlanta American Egyptian or Roman?

or mobile phones, that Ankara makes trade of capitally, economically, politically.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 6:23 AM
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Peg&Place,

are You Paul in MySpace? is Deuterium more sterile than Heavy Metal, for uterus matters, You know the "hubble" tele-scope cases.

have You heard whether His Holiness has moved to Korea, for crystal therapy and genetics? i ask for confirmation.

Posted by: interpreter native | July 18, 2008 6:17 AM
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Professor Thistlethwaite, You must come to Izmir again, after years.

has St PAul been a host for St George, yes sure, i have such a date in my records : )

Posted by: interpreter nathive | July 18, 2008 4:58 AM
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maybe frog becomes phi-rug or phi-rock, i dont care, in the center of the Earth, i dont care, in the seas and lands in Agarthan Shell, i dont care, in shell with feminine goldenness in holy breath, i dont care.

staff in the spaceship? people on EArth, yes i do care.

Posted by: interpreter nathive | July 18, 2008 4:48 AM
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Professor Thistlethwaite,

how have You been around Your 1940s? do You know the numbers 19 and forty?

video.eksenim.mynet.com/mega3404/stend_by_me_hayvanlar_soyluyor/143136/

i know that the boron mineral is "tears of Jesus Christ", "dove dung", i know that on this land in this city is the relics. boron mineral is the carpet that later flies, like the Israelian Jacob, the horse that carries afar, like Pegasus.

and all shall earn the language, Melih Gokcek and Recep Tayyip Erdogan, too. i have heard the oath of Ehud Olmerd and Israelians, 200 to 2, and one in prison for 30 years, the herdy one, Jacob's.

Posted by: interpreter nathive | July 18, 2008 4:40 AM
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just around the Philadelphia Experiment, in 1948 in PAsific Ocean, Manisa Izmir is known as Philadelphia.

video.eksenim.mynet.com/matrax8c/Vince_Carter_Top_10/55744/

Posted by: interpreter nathive | July 18, 2008 4:12 AM
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Williams Bush, lets talk about Middle East Technical University in Ankara, the capital.

it was in 1950 built against Soviets, by Israel and USA, it is known as "a gun pointed to Soviets". it was right after the world war and MArshall Aid had come, to construct highways with steel cars and petroleum, in stead of iron railways. it was right after ISmet Inonu had made agreements with Churchill the Egyptian, and Adnan Menderes the Izmirian Fordian had been elected.

have You, or Hillary Clinton, ever said "ben de oynayabilirim artik, i may play too, i may make love too". You know, at the high school, i was playing asketball, and a classmate, son of Embassy in Australia, had offered Rugby Ball, i was in the chorus then.

i have heard that in Australia His Holiness has asked for a shot for "cancer" to "die before death", i think His Holiness has added thymus gland hormones. and i heard that Channel of Vatican shall be on the cable, i had asked a year ago to watch.

video.eksenim.mynet.com/neslim.jk/VINCE_CARTER_SMAC/164001/

Posted by: interpreter nathive | July 18, 2008 4:09 AM
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Professor Thistlethwaite,

professional is what You do, You have a Pipe, You are Two Horns, You may pıut the Holy Breath onto People with Your Words within Your Breath. this is so important. You are riving the messages into a Path to take the Readers to a Holy Place, You are a Pegasus, as Eddie Murphy has or You have purchased an Asus EEEPC.

there are two that i would teach my children with, one is Eddi Murphy and the other is EEEPC. on the EEEPC computer, i may give a child the structure. what asus.com has placed into the website is downloaded and employed on the computer. what have been in the computer and the software are handsome to verbalize the basics of life on EArth.

Tur-Bow and Show-e, salt in the ocean whether with a woman in relation, reminded me to advice President Bush to interefere with the governments in stead of crimes explosions and wars, and the intelligence services shall be calm, i say this with the last explosion in BAghdat in the market place where children and women died, after i had frankly scanned an article of Yours with high resolution.

i had been in grief in these two days, this morning i recovered my wounds with medicine and health again. President Bush, could William Burns in the Nuclear Negotiation ask Mahmut Ahmedov to be in collaboration with Armenia, with respect to Cyrus and Alexander the Great, for the nation.

Posted by: interpreter nathive | July 18, 2008 2:53 AM
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GARYD - I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment - pain should inspire us in all the ways that you mention. While I don't share your religion, I do share your humanity.....

What becomes of us after this will just require a bit more time ..... then we'll know - and I do believe that we'll know.

Posted by: perspective | July 17, 2008 8:37 PM
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What the poll shows is people are vulnerable to the most nonsensical of imaginary things. That is the number one defect in the human mind that allows religions to garner free money from people.

There can be all sorts of paranormal things. Nobody knows for sure. What we do know is businesses are made of promoting the paranormal as absolute fact.

This shows there is a fundamental flaw in the human mind. It's a widespread mental disorder that explains all the horrible things religion has done throughout history, why no sane person wants religion operators running their lives yet elevate them as their social leaders, (the minister is always invited to the wedding feast).

There is a wide stripe of insanity that colors the human race. Religion does not cause it but takes advantage of it. It does seem to be catching. Missionary is what the infecting agents are called.

Then there's that aggravating thought that there's something wrong with people who don't believe. Believing is normal so non believers are not normal and therefore, by definition they are insane. We don't need an insane person running our government so we elect a con man who says he believes but is only taking advantage of our inability to tell what anyone besides ourselves really believes.

Bottom line. We Americans are sane. "God wills it" explains why we are sane.

We are all sinners that are children of God. God should be ashamed of himself for fathering insane people that don't even believe he exists. I believe in God so I'm sane. You're not like me? Then you must be insane.

Posted by: BGone | July 17, 2008 7:14 PM
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I'm a little confused.

The Rev. Brooks Thistlewaite says that the poll doesn't clearly distinguish between "metaphorical" and "literal" belief in the paranormal. She uses the language of ghosts and hauntings quite freely, but isn't clear herself whether she is speaking literally or metaphorically. She seems to make a merely metaphorical equation between ghosts and psychological pain.

Yet she learned all about this from a west african teacher. Having lived in west africa, most of the people I knew there believed quite literally in ghosts, jujus and supernatural powers (whether Christianized or not).

So what was it that she learned from this teacher, that ghosts are literally-real disembodied entities, or that it's fun to use the language of the paranormal?

Posted by: jyhume | July 17, 2008 8:29 AM
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Hmmm, the poll did not address belief in "pretty/ugly, wingie, talking thingies. Tis strange since one would assume they would be considered in the realm of the paranormal (definition- Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation).

Some background on these "beyond the range of normal experience" thingies:

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerbell" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty/ugly wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm
"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinkerbells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "


"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Posted by: Concerned The Christian Now Liberated | July 16, 2008 11:58 PM
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I've got osteoarthritis in my spine and most other places. The pain reminds me A) that I'm alive and B)That becoming so attached to this reality that I will not accept the possibility of any other is a pointless endeavor in ignoring the obvious.

Pain tells us further that we have not in heaven yet, and that we will never by our own powers create heaven on earth. It also should moves us toward acts of mercy and tenderness as we seek to ease the afflicted. It should also moves us towards the defense of the suffering even if that suffering is self inflicted.

Posted by: Garyd | July 16, 2008 8:28 PM
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