The Sermon Chop Shop

I get it. Who cares if he calls Abraham a Pimp.

What about Moss constantly talking about the enemy and the enemy city? Where is the enemy city? Is it Washington D.C.?

The words of people in the public eye are often quoted out of context. Sometimes this is sad, and meant to deceive the listener. That is why Kipling wrote in his poem "If": "If you can bear the hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools...." or even for those who aren't fools. But sometimes IN context does not make the impression any more pleasant. If you can find the full text of Wright's sermon on "the chickens have come home to roost" and the things the USA has done in recent history, you'll see that it really was taken out of context. Wright was quoting the white US ambassador to Iraq.
The problem about Obama is that he went beyond attending a church presided over by Wright and did not object to that UCC church's honoring Louis Farrakhan. Obama even appointed Wright to his campaign staff.... until the heat got hotter, and he kicked Wright out of the kitchen.
Guys like Falwell and Robertson are chastised with scorpions, but African-Americans like Motormouth Jeremiah Wright are held to a lower standard. Isn't that treating black people like children who are not held to the same standards as adults? THAT is racism!
Try Leviticus 19:17 -->>> "You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him."
And, yes, it IS curious that the Rev. Thistlewaite just happens to be an invitee to the church in question..... (as they say on "Seinfeld")...Hey! Not that there's anything WRONG with it!

The words of people in the public eye are often quoted out of context. Sometimes this is sad, and meant to deceive the listener. That is why Kipling wrote in his poem "If": "If you can bear the hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools...." or even for those who aren't fools. But sometimes IN context does not make the impression any more pleasant. If you can find the full text of Wright's sermon on "the chickens have come home to roost" and the things the USA has done in recent history, you'll see that it really was taken out of context. Wright was quoting the white US ambassador to Iraq.
The problem about Obama is that he went beyond attending a church presided over by Wright and did not object to that UCC church's honoring Louis Farrakhan. Obama even appointed Wright to his campaign staff.... until the heat got hotter, and he kicked Wright out of the kitchen.
Guys like Falwell and Robertson are chastised with scorpions, but African-Americans like Motormouth Jeremiah Wright are held to a lower standard. Isn't that treating black people like children who are not held to the same standards as adults? THAT is racism!
Try Leviticus 19:17 -->>> "You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him."
And, yes, it IS curious that the Rev. Thistlewaite just happens to be an invitee to the church in question..... (as they say on "Seinfeld")...Hey! Not that there's anything WRONG with it!

Dear Rev. Dr. President Susan,

Thank you for your service. (cooped lexicon) With all those titles my salutation seems mocking. It is not. What I first heard about Barak was Community Organizer, Constitutional Law Professor, Princeton undergrad and currently a US senator. Quick look at position on issues, all good especially re: assorted wars.
So I immediately browsed TUCC.org, jumping to staff credentials. This church seemed to be building solid black leadership for Chicago and America as well as reaching out to the masses. The credentials of each was awesome. Two questions stood out - Otis and Ramah. Ramah had(has) no credentials listed. Otis seemed a bit of compromise to tone down the black ivy league elitist image and connect with the (black) populace. It never occurred to me that the Sr. Pastor was a loose cannon that would engender images of "burn baby burn" in the minds of white America. Now the fertilize has hit the impellor and I read it that the leadership at the congregation and among UCC in Chicago was ahead of the curve and working hard to keep this Juggernaut on the rails. UCC is rare here in rural Texas. Your recomentation for Otis removes any doubts I had; but, please twist his arm as needed so he completes that earned doctorate. I cannot think of anything more important to his calling as a voice for black America and pastor to America. I was received other baptized into the Episcopal church from a black UMC. I moved because my local parish has a woman preist and God's spirit gave us Presiding Bishop Katherine . I got to hear her remarks to the United Black Episcopalian convention in Houston. Inspiring. At times when people used their ancestors' historic time of arrival in America as basis of predjudice, the UCC (and Quakers, UUA and many Episcpal) churches said we too have those "credentials" but we "welcome" equality and justice very broadly interpreted. You, Susan, are one of those hard working women, still in the trenches. In your case, commanding regiments of would be angels. Thank you for your service. Sincerely, James hofacker27@netscape.com

Poor DCP, you just do not understand. Just because the protestants were "birthed" from the Catholic Church, does not mean that they can trace their Apostleship back to the original twelve. They rejected the Teachings and Sacred Traditions and thus turned their backs on the true Christian Church.

As far as the early Christians not "praying" to the original Apostles. In the Catholic Church, "prayer" to a Saint is asking the Saint to intercede on a person's behalf. That is, you asking a Saint to talk to God for whatever reason, that means that both you and the Saint are praying to God for that favor. It is no different than the early Christians who asked the original twelve Apostles to pray for their own personal requests, whether that request was to heal a sick friend/relative or some other reason. We Catholics believe that a Saint is alive in Heaven and capable of praying to God and therefore it is no different than asking your local priest or even anonymous strangers on some internet forum to pray to God on your behalf. As far as veneration for Mary, again, it is clearly shown in the NT that Jesus listened to and granted a miracle to his mother. The story of the turning water into wine shows Jesus' first miracle and who was the requestor?

True Christian, your church does not trace its history back to the apostles. The apostles never prayed to saints (ahem, themselves). Furthermore, the apostles never prayed to Mary. Plus there wasn't this ritual for canonization hundreds of years after a believer died. The Catholics invented that. The term "saint" referred to all believers. However, the protestant church was birthed out of the Catholic church. So, if your church traces its steps all the way back to the original apostles, then so does the protestant church.

Wow! I'm glad I belong to one of only two Churches that can honestly trace their Apostalic succession back to the original twelve Apostles, being a Catholic (the other true Christian Church is the Orthodox). We don't have this problem with part-time preachers who chop up the Bible for their own usefulness, instead they follow the Sacred Traditions and Teachings that have changed very little since Christ taught the original Apostles. I know this rankles some who believe that they should be able to interpret the Bible any way they think and, well, rev. Falhell and rev. Wrong are what you get from this kind of thinking, instead of learning what God wants us to learn as it was passed down from generation to generation since God was man himself.

I do empathize with the person who moved from church to church because of things in each he found disagreeable. The Catholic Church is strong enough and universal enough that having a problem with an individual priest or bishop does not mean you leave the Church, for ex. I currently disagree with how my local bishop handled a priest who has three times "outed" other priests who were sinning (one stealing from the Church, another who had an affair with a married woman, and another who was into gay porn), so ever since then, whenever the Bishop's Lenten Appeal comes in the mail, it goes right into the trash. However, I have nothing against my local Church or priests, therefore, I give generously to them. The Church is not perfect, but then it is much closer than these so-called "christian" churches that were attempts to "reform" the Catholic Church.

Rev. Thistlewaite,

As many of the comments in this section demonstrate, there are many people who do not want to hear the voice of reason, no matter how reasonable it is. They have staked out their point of view, and are slinging verbal arrows at you like people trying to scare an intruder off their land. However, be neither discouraged nor dismayed: this "land" is also your land, and you have a right to make your voice heard, just as surely as Rev. Moss, Rev. Wright and others also have the same right.

Please don't back down, and please keep speaking out. After all, it's only ignorance. There's a lot of it on display in American society these days, especially about black religious traditions. However, it is my hope that, with voices like yours - which in times of controversy pick up and courageously brandish the sword of truth - that ignorance, though it may die hard, will nonetheless do just that: die.

Thank you again for writing so promptly and cogently on this important subject. As a member of Trinity UCC in Chicago, I am extraordinarily grateful.

'Doctor of Ministry Program' eh? Must be just like the degree MKL got, you know, by plagiarizing his entire dissertation. Since this loser is into hip-hop he probably beats the crap out of his hos after he's thru with them just like MLK did. Nice folks you glorify lady.

Oh, wow, what Christian "Love" being shown to Rev. Susan! Wow. Any of you actually READ your Bibles, or did you ask Pat Robertson, Rod Parsley or John Haggee what to say??? Wow. Venomous, rude, nasty and bigoted bunch posting in response. Tell me, precisely how many of you have actually sat through to twenty THOUSAND PLUS hours of Pastor Wright's sermons? Now, tell me how many of you own and read Red Letter Bibles? I'm not a Christian, but let me point you hate-mongers in an interesting direction: Luke 6:20-49, the Beatitudes through to the story of the wise and foolish builders. Mine's from Zondervan's NIV, red letter edition. Here's just a taste, and you should feel free to feel "convicted" in your parlance: "Why do you look to the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother 'Brother let me take the speck out of your eye' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" Luke 6:41-42

Susan,

The better way for the Reverend Moss would be for him to speak the truth about the "fems" of religion i.e. the flaws, errors, muck and stench.

e.g.

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

The muck and stench of non-Catholic Christian churches you ask?

Adulterous preachers and atonement theology.

It's gratifying to see that a number of posters on this MB are not conned by this Marxist's BS. 'Liberation theology' whatever it's flavor is pure Stalinism. The human race suffered grievously from this nonsense and completely discredited it. Its few adherents now cower in universities and so called 'theological seminaries.' People like SBT are truly pathetic.

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community ... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love

Cone

Is this woman an idiot or just so full of self loathing that she defends Wrong and now Loss in their bigoted white hating rants? Now she's got a hip=hop minister she just loves. Is she too stupid to know just what misogynistic, authority hating, violence glorifying filth hip-hop is? Tupec a 'prophet'? Sure; of death and destruction. This ho's 'seminary' is obviously just the flip side of FARTwell's terrorist training 'university.'

Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite is without doubt an intelligent woman, but she advocates a practice begun in the 1960s that resurfaces from time to time: making the word of God more relevant to young people.

From my perspective this misguided practice always results in a milquetoast Christianity because the word of God can't be added to or taken away from by the actions of man. It requires enormous hubris for one to assume the message of salvation is dependent upon man's showmanship instead of the call of the Holy Spirit.

Are we to believe that God failed to present his message in a manner that transcends time, and requires generational polishing to make it acceptable? I don't believe such is the case.

Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite seems to consider the Gospel of Jesus Christ a product in need of promotion instead it being the ultimate gift.

OK Susan

what are your filters?

Hannity?

neochristian?

Faux News?

The article in Newsmax.com could in no way be considered journalism or a news story. Journalistic structure demands that opposing views be represented in each story. News stories also should at least attempt to present objective coverage. The Newsmax story is a hack job. I have been a newspaper reporter and I am an ordained minister. If, for instance, Newsmax had bothered to ask a pastor or biblical scholar if there was truth in Rev Moss' controversial remarks, they would have found that King David indeed acted like a thug, and that Abraham did indeed as much as sell his wife off several times to save his own skin. Fortunately God blocked those transactions. So let's be clear, these so-called conservatives are not interested in truth or America's well-being.

As usual, Hannity misrepresents situations and statements in order to shroud himself in the glorious mantle of Character Assassin. Meanwhile, his pretend liberal straight man mumbles a few mealy-mouth words.
How can anyone with more than one grey cell tune him in?

Bet Rev. Susie also put Rev. Wacko Wright into CONTEXT! Well, we found out that Wright's words were his context. Same with Otis. The Rev. Susie is part of the Radical Chicago Left. She, the Ayers. Rev. Wrong, Rev.Jesse and our new Prez.Barry Hussien. Where is GOD now that we really need him!

Chop Block. Chop Shop. Chop Block.... what bull.

I watched Rev Wright answer questions when he was at the press club. He said what he said
in his sermons. So you can say chop shop and chop block all you want but I heard it and
saw it with my own ears and eyes. So what you want to do is pretend like what I saw and
heard did not happen and spin it all into cute little phrases like chop shop and chop
block.

I went to a so-called Christian church for 15 years. Then that church started preaching
that there are many ways to God. I left that church because Christ is the only way to
Salvation. I did not want my 4 kids to hear something that was not true.

I then went to a church that after attending for 5 years they started teaching that
homosexuality was not a sin. The church installed a woman who is a lesbian as the pastor.
I have 4 kids so I left that church because homosexuality is a sin. A pastor is an
example and I don't want my kids to even consider that woman's life style or to believe
that they would be happy as a homosexual. So we left that church.

I did not go to church for 2 years as I was so disgusted with what I was hearing at my
two previous churches.

Then a friend recommended another church. We are now attending this church for 3 year as
this is a place where the true Gospel is preached, not perfectly, but without major
flaws. If this present church started preaching racist hate, then I would stop going in
an instant.

So do not tell me that someone can go to a church for 20 years and be unaware of what is
being preached in that church. That is a lie. Do not tell me that if a person stays at a
church they do not agree with what is being preached. That is a lie. For the sake of your
kids, if not for any other reason, you should leave any church that teaches false
doctrine, especially racial hate.

This is not Iran with no freedom of religion. This is American and if you go to a church
for 20 years that teaches hate it is because you wanted to go there and you agree with
what is being preached. There is no chop shop or chop block except those who want to chop
out the truth from what we all know instinctively is true and deceive us to think
otherwise.

Bet Rev. Susie also put Rev. Wacko Wright into CONTEXT! Well, we found out that Wright's words were his context. Same with Otis. The Rev. Susie is part of the Radical Chicago Left. She, the Ayers. Rev. Wrong,Rev.Jesse and our new Prez.Barry Hussien. Where is GOD now that we really need him!

I suppose the decades and centuries of teachings that created racists like Hannity's supporters is morally superior somehow...

Or would the real point be to silence black voices entirely.

LOUIS MICHAEL MOUNT: "Anyone who criticizes our government is a terrorist lover who shouldn't be near the White House anyway."

Anyone who says what you just said is a fascist whose knowledge and ethics would together fit into an elf's thimble.

The Republicans and their running dogs are comparable to the Pharisees, Sadducees and temple money changers of the New Testament. They have corrupted the religion they claim to represent. They also practice Machiavelli's first axiom: APPEAR to be religious and compassionate. Compassionate conservatism, anyone? When Bush made that announcement, I wondered that he had to add "compassionate," as if conservatism, even in his own mind, was hardhearted and venal.

A fantastic article!

Anyone who criticizes our government is a terrorist lover who shouldn't be near the White House anyway.

I think the point of th article was to show that if you chop up a sermon into sound bites, it sounds extreme. Take for example the Blacks/lepers sound bite.

Pamela, He didn't say blacks were lepers, he drew an analogy.

Fact: Lepers were outcast of society in the middle ages.
Fact: They we not permitted to live among healthy people because their sickness was contagious.

Rev. Moss III compares the plight of black people to that of lepers.

Fact: Blacks in the south were not allowed to go into the same places as whites. There were outcasts.

Fact: Blacks were not allowed to live in particular neighborhoods.

This is an analogy, he is NOT saying being black is a skin disease. He said the lepers were segregated as were blacks.

The sermon goes on to say, in sum, that despite whatever "condition" you may experience in life, you can still receive God's blessings.

Is this extremist or racist? I understand that some of you are not Christians and do not believe in organized religion. But do you still think its ok to attack a pastor for the sole purpose of discrediting a politician?

I guess that's what it means to have a Democracy.

Wow, I am stunned that this so called Reverend and professor of theology thinks nothing of demonizing those with whom she does not agree. And she doesn't seem to bat an eyelash while doing it.

Apparently the lessons of the Bible on love have totally missed the mark with this babe. Rather than turning the other cheek ( and really the todo was not about her at all she just jumped into the fray) she basically jumps in with both fists, metaphorically speaking.

It seems that the Reverend Susan Brooks Thistlewaite (please read in plummy tones) is nothing but a liberal hack and reserves respect and love only for those with whom she agrees. God help her students and the future parishioners of those students.

A rock thrown into a pack of dogs disappears. But if you want to know which dog got hit then just listen for the yelping and howling, look for the snarling and running, and most importantly -- look for the blogging and denial in posted comments.

There is a whole lot of dogs of denial running around biting their own tails concerning your excellent article Mrs. Brooks. They must have gotten hit by the rock. For the dogs that did not get hit behaved quite differently. That right wing dog is sure ticked off now. I thank you for your marksmanship. We need to know what kind of dog we are dealing with here and who amongst is prone to the doggish mentality of divide through expressions and machinations of evil intent.

Your comments on the Rev Otis Moss III are very good. I appreciate you giving the total picture before right wing pundits dissect the sermons for radical purposes. There are ministers who feel they can comment on any subject without retribution in cases of no supportive scripture.

We can receive our thoughts and opinions from anyone on the street but the church is our direct instructional institution to our faith.

Focus on our Faith must not be deterred by subject of the week. We must apply our Faith to focus. We have no control over what people pull from the sermons. But we have control over our Faith and will.

Wow:

I think we are seeing the ugly racist side of the right wing revealing itself in a number of these responses.

You need to click the link and actually read the article to see what the "radical right" Newsmax is saying about the Reverend Moss. Ms. B-T doesn't actually quote them, or rebut them.

If you actually follow the link, you'll find a fact-based article that takes some rather silly quotes from Mr. Moss and publicizes them. Although it's clearly for political purposes, and the quotes are taken out of whatever dopey context they came from, it's neither "radical right" nor dishonest.

The author of this hit piece should grow up and stop using incendiary language.

Wow:

I think we are seeing the ugly racist side of the right wing revealing itself in a number of these responses.

...and I find it tragic to say that these people, who attack in this way, know not love unless it is juxtaposed with self. Self interest has ruined lives and can ruin a nation. Love is not so far fetched that it cannot pull a nation back from the brink of its run up to a cliff’s edge. To be servant is the highest as well as the hardest. Who can serve in an environment of hate? Yet is that not where service is most needed? The brick wall of human propensity to be base is difficult to scale to reach the other side where virtuous progress resides as opposed to win at any cost evil on the other side.

Today a bunch of crooks and hucksters, womanizing egotists and dangerous megalomaniacs choreograph extravaganzas of the Jesus frenzy. Alarmingly, they have serious political influence and an agenda for Armageddon. Tragically millions believe their swill and people who should know better, like the writer of this piece, apologize and attempt to justify their bigotry and stupidity.

I loved the article because the theology of Reverend Moss was explained very clearly that even a Hillary-Clinton-noneducated-blue-collar white can understand. Got it? Good! By the way, why is it that African Americans require interpreters?

Sounds fair to me. The only reason the radical left isn't still "chopping up" Jerry Falwell's sermons is that he's dead. (I'm assuming they're not still chopping...)

"Radical right" is a phrase well-known to readers of the modern liberal press. "Radical left" is a phrase the press never uses. But there is a healthy anti-US left that can properly be so designated. Those who are informed only by reading liberal publications live in the ideological shadows and so are unable to see properly. Reverend Wright is a member of the radical left and he is merely one of thousands of ministers who fit nicely in that category. I daresay that Ms. Brooks would not describe men like Wright or anyone for that matter as "radical." For such as her only right-wingers merit that label.

Going all the way back to my childhood, I've always been suspicious of those who claim to be devoutly religious. I have never been totally sure of whether to trust them or not.

But the actions of these types of people over the past 20 years have proven to me that my suspicions were well founded and that they should not be trusted under any circumstances.

Thanks, but I think I'll just stick to treating people kindly and with fairness while I avoid the non-profit quasi-political religion businesses altogether.

This is what I detest, abhor, hate about organized religion - they are hypocrits of the highest caliber. Used car salesment and snake oil hawkers have more of a socially redeeming value than those who corrupt the word of God. As a Deist I find it fascinating that so many people allow themselves to be herded as sheep, completely trusting what the individual cutting and pasting from the Bible is actually spouting.

I'm a conservative from cleveland. I grew up in Rev. Moss father's church and am very familiar with the sermons of Rev. Moss III. Honestly, there's nothing racist or extreme or anything about his sermons. He preaches the unconditional love of Jesus Christ, that's all. He doesn't preach politics. Please don't go down this road.

ottis is another explosive bomb for the black liberation trinity church. didnt he state, blacks are like lepers with diseased skin?

oh my!!! who could think this stuff up??? its unbelievable!! THOUGHTS BEYOND BELIEF!!!yet some peoople feel insecure enough to believe them, and start to blame people outside of themselves. some americans obviously are easy to brainwash? isnt he really saying blackness is a disease? sick!its just not true.

ottis is another explosive bomb for the black liberation trinity church. didnt he state, blacks are like lepers with diseased skin?

oh my!!! who could think this stuff up??? its unbelievable!! THOUGHTS BEYOND BELIEF!!!yet some peoople feel insecure enough to believe them, and start to blame people outside of themselves. some americans obviously are easy to brainwash? isnt he really saying blackness is a disease? sick!its just not true.

Whay not discuss hillary's spiritual connections? Have you done a story on her church? Does she belong to a church? Does she believe in God? Who is her pastor? Are you a racists?

What's wrong with you stupid white people? You do not understand the black church, because you refuse to accept the history of racists America. All of you should be ashamed. I'm ashamed to be white.

How sweet it is seeing these bigoted black Leninist filth peddlers unmasked as the mirror images of FARTwell and all the other Fascist white hate mongers. But hey, when your whole religion is based on tales specifically designed to engender hatred for the tribe next door, what else can you expect?

McCain said he was 'proud' to have pastor John Hagee's support.

Hagee said Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves by "turning away from the true God." He said Catholicism is a "false cult," and said it was the cause of Hitler's anti-semitism.

Good for the goose is good for the gander.

I'm so glad we've decided, since 1980, that religion belongs in our politics. What excellent results we've reaped! Congratulations, Goddies, on your part in the destruction of our once-proud nation.

Are black Ministers under seige from the "Right-Wing" in this country?

These bastards! What kind of Jesus do these right-wing extremists preach? Is Jesus Christ so full of hate that he(Christ) cannot see eye to eye with all human beings as the right-wing extremists would like us to believe?

Sean Hannity, Why are you so HATEFUL? What did black people do to you or your family members so as to deserve this kind of vernom from you?

This is a warning... listen to Newt(former Speaker of the House); John McCain will never win this White House if all you've got is this much HATE! The Republicans better chat another course, a new way of doing politics, because America has changed for the good, and we are rejecting this "traditional" Republican attack line of seperating us based on race.

I hope you find the true Jesus Christ soon, because when you do, he(Christ) will change you!

Religion peddlers of ALL hues can be counted on extol hatred. When what you do is based on stone age fairy tales, anything and everything goes. As these filth sellers so disgustingly demonstrate.

Love and Light will shine through. Keep up the good fight and the truth will set us free. I am looking forward to reading your sermon. I would rather hear it spoken, if you can direct me to a website at some point please.

The Sunday you speak would be a great time for Sen. Obama to go back to his church and reconnect with the congregation. If you have a way of giving him a special invitation, please do. It would do so many people in America good to hear the discussion of race that you are having. All the best as you and your church push on with your mission.

Love, Lance

It blows my mind that people don't seem to realize that you can be friends with someone even if you don't agree with everything they say. I think I learned that in Kindergarten.

This article is typical of the left when trying to defend statements and radicalism which are indefensible. They point to the ever present Republican boogeyman, who "distracts" the country from what the left considers important. Mr. Obama sat in this church for twenty years and obviously until recently had no problem doing so. I have no idea whether Rev. Otis is a nut and as out of touch as Mr. Wright. What should be noted is that the left wants to tie Mr. McCain to preachers themselves. Obviously they have no problem "distracting" the country. It isn't as if Mr. McCain sat in a church, had his children baptized, nor gave $20,000 to a church and preacher that advocates African Nationalism tinged with a Leninist World view. I ask who is the party chopping up speeches and policies? The Left will be the ones who tell America that McCain will kill the Earth, Old People, and promote gay bashing. That isn't new politics, that is Democrats standard operating procedure.

1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king.”

Deuteronomy 28:20
“The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me.

27 “I will send My fear before you, I will cause confusion among all the people to whom you come, and will make all your enemies turn their backs to you.

OH THE SOLUTION IS SO EASY!! SINCE RELIGIONS POISON EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE IT TOUCHES , JUST STAY AWAY FROM IT!!

Nothing is wrong with investigating the new pastor's sermons at Trinity UCC in Chicago and publicizing their contents. If the new pastor wants everyone to know transparently the contents of his sermons, he could easily post the text and video versions on the Church's website.

I have no love for the Right Wing, nor for race baiters. Just what, specifically is the Right Wing criticism that was leveled at the pastor you defend? Are you putting out a gauzie straw man, suggesting that maybe there is something racist in addition to being nefarious. Your article does not specify much of anything other than name calling the Right Wing. The RW has much to answer and so do those who toss out vague accusations--what is the difference between what they do and what you apparently are doing?

I have no love for the Right Wing, nor for race baiters. Just what, specifically is the Right Wing criticism that was leveled at the pastor you defend? Are you putting out a gauzie straw man, suggesting that maybe there is something racist in addition to being nefarious. Your article does not specify much of anything other than name calling the Right Wing. The RW has much to answer and so do those who toss out vague accusations--what is the difference between what they do and what you apparently are doing?

I have no love for the Right Wing, nor for race baiters. Just what, specifically is the Right Wing criticism that was leveled at the pastor you defend? Are you putting out a gauzie straw man, suggesting that maybe there is something racist in addition to being nefarious. Your article does not specify much of anything other than name calling the Right Wing. The RW has much to answer and so do those who toss out vague accusations--what is the difference between what they do and what you apparently are doing?

We will all look like idiots in 2009 if we allow the republicans to use the same old smear campaigns they have uses since reagan's wellfare queens and Bush I's willie horton tactics to convince us to stay with the bush administrations continued failed policies by proxy through McCain. It will prove what they already think of the american voter public is true which is we are lazy and dumb and would rather vote based on mudslinging and character assassination than on the issues and their accomplishments.

Susan,

It appears from many of the responses that there is a vast reservoir of hatred in this world, and an equally great fear of the power of love.

The radical right? Huh? Since when is Newsmax.com "radical?" Perhaps you need to read some history. Fascism is radical. Neo-nazis are radical. Aryan Nation is radical. Fox News, Rush, and Newsmax are -- let's say it together now -- CONSERVATIVE. Thanks for the hippie perspective. It only does the left harm when foolish exaggerations and inflammatory terminology.

The beginnings of the Pubs character assasination program - so intelligent so well thought out - but then again look who the Pubs appeal to - some of the most reactionary people on the planet. I am not an Obama supporter but I like so many other Americans with an IQ over 85 understand that we need to judge Mr. Obama not someone else he listens to for 15 minutes during a prayer service.

I'm an atheist and easily confused by the goofy 2000 year old metaphors of the bible. But I am not confused by the message of the right wing: we are white christians and everyone else wants to destroy us, therefore our war to defend against their aggression.

Said...
Tom:
For one thing, you are woman and you should not be a minister anyway. Jesus only selected men to be Apostles/Ministers. So shup up and stop spread your ignorance here.
__________________________________________________

First, I don’t agree with the article. I think this lady is bias to Obama.
With that said…
Tom, do you live in a cave.
Osama is probably your next cave neighbor, although you are obviously not Muslim you are not far from becoming the next American Taliban for the way you think of women…
You have got to come out and play man… :)

So now you clowns want race as part of your filthy little culture war? You should be ashamed of yourselves.

As a Christian, raised in and attending an African-American church, I wonder what kind of sermons many posters and many critics are used to hearing. Pastors are charged with a difficult task. They must make the words of Christ and the Bible relevant to their congregants. One way of doing that is to use terminology that is understood by those listening. Another way (which I THOUGHT most pastors did) is to relate the lives of the those in the Bible to the members of the church. These are the types of things that Rev. Moss is doing. Anyone who works with young people should understand and appreciate that.

I find it appalling that anyone would attempt to use the words of this man, or any other minister for political purposes.

T Owens:
Thank you. That was a very enlightening article.
___________________________________________

Home Depot has a very good selection of flash lights.
You might want to pick one up for better enlightening.

Why is there always a dubble standard applied to people of color from those of whites. We are solded that, if you go to school and don't get into trouble, you will achieve the American dream. We have a great candidate in Sen. Obama and all I read is how his minister's sermons are racist. This is why our founding father's place a statement in their writings about the separation of church and state. Because they knew that a religious sermon could be used by others to put into question the belief of the candidate. This is crazy that I hear candidates evoking racist statements in their campaign speeches and then try to spin that they were misunderstood. There are no stupid people in the world today. What I am seeing that the under educated are not reseaching the issues. They are being feed, lies and false statements as facts and then embellish the story for there benefit. This is why the American people should insist that they get out of all churches and deal with the issues that will enhance the lives of all American people.

After reading these comments. I have two things to say. I'm shocked at the apparent lack of education on display here. Second, the Balkanization of America has happened. This is the way Democrats wanted it. Get off of your racial high horses and think about the good of the country and not just your race!!!!!

The good that makes Obama great gets smudged by the people that he has for friends and associates.
These kinds of things are very important for people like me that look on Obama as the instrument of change; these associations make him look the same as any regular politician.
Remember that prejudice is not a one way street.
If I want Obama to win it is because he is the best choice; not just because he is black. I am not buying shoes where color is important, I am electing a PRESIDENT.
He also has to be better than the other presidents, but not only for blacks. but for every American. This is like any other job, where minorities are expected to fail, and that is why we have to be better than the other guy.

I DON’T WANT SOMEBODY WITH BLACK CHRISTIAN VALUES; I WANT SOMEBODY WITH AMERICAN CHRISTIAN VALUES. I DO NOT WAN A BLACK PRESIDENT, I WANT AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

If he can show me that he can be that American president, he will get my vote…
A wife that is proud to be an American will do him good too…

For one thing, you are woman and you should not be a minister anyway. Jesus only selected men to be Apostles/Ministers. So shup up and stop spread your ignorance here.

If your argument is that "parts" of speeches are being used out of context by "the radical right," you should include the "parts" and then include the context to inform your readers of the facts of the situation.

Since you did not, the assumption must be either that the context really does NOT explain the "parts" or that you do not even know the context of the "parts." I am guessing that you do not know the context of the specific "parts" at issue.

Your article did not prove anything except that you have taken a side and that you will attack anyone who attacks Obama.

I guess I missed the part of the Bible that says kill the n*****s and Catholics. Have to watch evangelical TV for that.

Dear god, when will you take your childish children by the hand and lead them out of the sandbox of religious correctness ?

Until you do, rational people will continue to notice that you have no more control over them than you have over earthquakes, plagues, cancer, and cyclones and other devastation wrought by "acts of god".

Funny that Ms. Thistlewaite attacks those who attack, so-called, Rev. Moss then quickly at the very end mentions that she had been invited to be a guest Pastor at one of his services. No wonder she's defending him, yet, did not offer any of his "chopped" clips for others to judge what exactly was "chopped" by the so-called "right wingers". She also forgets about how many times the "conservative christian" (note that I don't think these white conservative preachers are any more "christians" than either Rev. Wright or Jesse Jackson or Al Shrapnel) preachers have been taken to task, in the mainstream news, over the years. When you really look at the number of times clips of Pat Robertson's, or Billy Graham's and other white, conservative, preachers' sermans have been televised and ostracized, they far outweigh the number of times those by black preachers have been televised and ostracized. Mostly, I attribute that the media was afraid of being accused of being racist that they had not taken black preachers to task before. Actually, I think its a GOOD thing that they are now no longer afraid of being labelled as being racist, because all so-called "christian" hate mongers should be outed, regardless of race.

Isn't it here in America that we are suppose to have FREEDOM OF SPEECH??? Why are we in an uproar about what someones pastor said (Obama's ministers), do he have the right? Take note do our president the I didn't elect have one, because some of the thing he have said I truly don't agree with, for instance when he calls people bad people who is he talking about? Why are our sons and daughters fighting a war about something what I truly don't know about and don't tell me about 911 because the government knew about that before it happen.

At no time do you successfully debunk the criticisms of Rev Moss' sermons. He isn't just trying to speak in the vernacular, he's preaching the same hate and lack of personal responsibility that Rev Wright did for the 20 years he infected Barak Obama.

I think you are so enamoured with the prospect of a black President you are willing to overlook a large number of 900 lb gorillas in the room. Not that that isn't a laudable goal, but to vote for someone just because they are black is about as racist as not voting for someone for the same reason. To ignore criticism of that person or excuse it away is in the same arena.

I say a number of Simians as these gentlemen are far from the only specious persons Mr Obama has a close relationship with. I know the article was not about Sen. Obama but let's be real, it really is about him, isn't it?

And yet for years and years, we've heard nothing but psychotic bigoted hate-filled trash coming from Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell (now deceased), and their ilk. I would love to see some of their outrageous quotes and sermons dissected with the same bloodthirsty fascination. Oddly enough, only black preachers and their congregations seem to be under intense scrutiny.

Feeling the Love said:
"I guess I missed the part in the Bible where Jesus said "Kill Whitey.""

I guess I missed the part in the Bible where Jesus said 'Kill hundred of thousands of Iraqi civilians.'

Why aren't these organizations sued for slander?

Why aren't these organizations sued for slander?

I love it when these liberal do everything they can to justify those who they support. The United Church of Christ should have thrown Rev. Wright out ... there is no justification for not doing so. As for Rev. Moss quoting Tupac Shakur ... I am sure he could have come up with someone with a far more positive image to quote. And I might remind Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite that criticism is not always a bad thing ... hopefully it will cause Rev. Moss to think before he copies any of Rev. Wright's ideas.

More parrots watch Fox News than any other channel.

So much for right wing Christian values.

It is shameful what the religious right is doing. I have but one thing to say: Be very careful...God is watching. You will reap what you sow. Self professed christians like Sean Hannity need to remember they are barring false witness against other christian. God is not pleased.

Thank you. That was a very enlightening article.

Oh, Lady...

"Let the American Holy war begin!"

Let's not and let certain folks see the major motion picture?

I am a white person. As I read some of the right wing hatred from fellow whites that finds its way into the space about religion - I can't help but think that a plan to "kill whitey" would a certain amount of sense. A large number of them are clearly not "reality based".

But I do know Jesus would want us to forgive them. I wonder however if he could go along with just a little slapping around?

"I would hate to have our sacred conversation on race in the United Church of Christ become just that many more spare parts peddled out of the chop shop to generate false controversy."

False controversy? Was the Wright issue also false? If so, then why has Obama abandoned him? How bout Rev. Meeks, a longtime Obama political ally, "spiritual counselor", and noted homophobe? Is Obama's connection with Meeks now a "false controversy"?

I am a white person. As I read some of the right wing hatred from fellow whites that finds its way into the space about religion - I can't help but think that a plan to "kill whitey" would a certain amount of sense. A large number of them are clearly not "reality based".

But I do know Jesus would want us to forgive them. I wonder however if he could go along with just a little slapping around?

i was stupid till i read
'liberal fascism" . now i know you socialist are really dangerous. mostly to the unborn.

The right-wing pastors will get their due on You-Tube later this year.

Once the election goes one-on-one, there will be a complete attack on faith itself, with all organized churches shown to be the center of war, misery and the devil.

This will be closer to the truth than we have ever been since American troops fought domestic terrorists and traitors to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic."

Let the American Holy war begin!

Obama's "spiritual mentor" Reverend Wright describes Dr. James Cone (a black liberation theologian) as his main inspiration and spiritual role-model. Here are some quotes from Dr. Cone:

"Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man 'the devil.'"

"To be Christian is to be one of those whom God has chosen. God has chosen black people!"

"All white men are responsible for white oppression."

"If there is any contemporary meaning of the Antichrist (or 'the principalities and powers'), the white church seems to be a manifestation of it."

- Dr. James Cone

I guess I missed the part in the Bible where Jesus said "Kill Whitey."

How sad what people will do in the Jesus. The lies, the supidity of Americans who tend to beleive anything to justfied their racism. The comments from the right make me ashamed to be an american. I support Obama and i support Rev. Moss.

Black Saint is a fool.

Black Saint has a marginal command of the English language and spews basic headline lies dictated to her by Fox News.

Jesus Loves You, Black Saint!
(Even though fellow humans think you are a waste of KBs)

First, having worked and lived along side both, most Hispanics are not prejudiced against Blacks. Blacks, in fact, are much more likely to have strong feelings against Hispanics. One, because they believe they are taking over Black businesses. While true the reason for this probably is that talented Blacks now do things like become lawyers and doctors - and even run for President - while many Hispanics don't have those kinds of opportunities. Also because banks give Hispanics who have just come to this country better treatment than Blacks who have lived here all their lives. This is the fault of those who operates banks - usually White and Black folks - and not Hispanics.

Second, those so-called conservative Web site media folks - they aren't journalists - are only interested in playing off the fears of White people facing hard times. They care nothing for their audience or America. Someday they will have to answer to God for the trouble they are causing the church and Black pastors.

Sean Hannity. I would seriously pound his face until it caved in... Which wouldn't take long.

I have no Pastor, though, so what do you expect from an uneducated heathen.

: )

Praise The Lord! (Just not his pacifist, liberal message)

Blacks had better recognize the facts & wake up ..Latinos are the new Blacks for Democrats politicians & they are deserting Blacks & pandering for the Latinos vote. . Obama would have a better chance of getting Independents & Republicans to vote for him than pandering for the Latino vote! We have let them Hi-Jack Blacks civil rights by equating walking across the border to the welfare office as the same as blacks struggle in slavery. Open borders and Amnesty will be the end of Blacks Civil rights and progress! Do not deceive yourself that Blacks and Latinos can make common cause because Latinos are very racist and hate blacks. As La Raza (the race) says everything for the race nothing for the rest! Then if further proof is required Google the Ethic cleansing of Blacks in LA by illegal Hispanics soon to be extended Nation wide!

Blacks had better recognize the facts & wake up ..Latinos are the new Blacks for Democrats politicians & they are deserting Blacks & pandering for the Latinos vote. . Obama would have a better chance of getting Independents & Republicans to vote for him than pandering for the Latino vote! We have let them Hi-Jack Blacks civil rights by equating walking across the border to the welfare office as the same as blacks struggle in slavery. Open borders and Amnesty will be the end of Blacks Civil rights and progress! Do not deceive yourself that Blacks and Latinos can make common cause because Latinos are very racist and hate blacks. As La Raza (the race) says everything for the race nothing for the rest! Then if further proof is required Google the Ethic cleansing of Blacks in LA by illegal Hispanics soon to be extended Nation wide!

In spite of what Obama thinks, even white stupid bitter rednecks that Believe in God, loves this Nation, support the second Amendment, Article IV Section IV against Invasion, and the rule of Law, know this much:

When you take money out of your wallet and lay that money down for the same cause, week after week, month after month, year after year, for 20 years...you HAVE endorsed and believe in the Message and you have most assuredly endorsed the MESSENGER.

For 20 years Obama has supported Reverend Wright and his Radical American Hating Racist Paranoid Rants, but now that he wants to be President he throws the man under the bus alone with his Grandmother. The question is just how bitter is Obama at whites, and what kind of man is he that is seeks to be President? It seems that with Obama Bull Sh-t Talks and Truth, Honestly and Character walks! Its time for American voters to throw Obama under the Bus!

Mrs. Thistlewaite,

The "radical right", as you call them, has no need to congratulate Sen. Obama's pastors for giving a good sermon. That's what they are supposed to do. Would you expect someone to congratulate you for brushing your teeth this morning? Of course not, you are SUPPOSED to do that. We only congratulate children for doing the right thing as to encourage them to keep it up. Once again, your argument fails to be relevent. Perhaps you should stop pandering to the string of racists Sen. Obama calls his pastors, and take a look at some other candidates.

SBT,

I don't want to judge you by the company you keep, but you have a lot of followers on this blog who hate Christ and hate Christians. They're your peeps.

So, the radical right is reduced to the "My brother is bigger than your brother" and "your house is smellier than my house" level.

It's always best to identify the purulent sore accurately before you stick a surgeon's knife in it.

Good luck with that, GOP.

Rev. Thistlewaite,

Thank you for writing about this in such a cogent and timely manner. I am a member of Trinity UCC, and I am extraordinarily disheartened to see the right wing pundits come after Rev. Otis Moss III. Rev. Wright did not deserve the sermon chop shop, and Rev. Moss does not deserve it either. I hope that the media heeds what you have written before the name, reputation and service of yet another good man is dragged down in infamy. It would be a tragedy to us all if they are allowed to take their attack on TUCC any further than they already have.

Thank you again for speaking up so promptly. The media storm is brewing and building yet again, and clear voices like yours are badly needed to dissipate the gathering clouds before truth is hopelessly flooded out of the public discourse, and irreparable damage is done....

"How about you argue over the fact that Hillary Clinton is a liar and they probably want her to win because they know McCain will BEAT her badly?"

Actually, every poll shows Clinton beating McCain by a slightly higher percentage than Obama, tho *both* would beat McCain. And they haven't even concentrated on the political milquetoast yet. McCain will be buried like a dead body.

As for liars - there's none worse than this worst administration in American history, and its current butt kissing clone, Political Coward and Liar John McCain.

It doesn't matter who wins the Dem nomination: McCain has so many skeletons waiting to be exposed, that I grin with delight in anticipation of the debates.

Facism and socialism are kind of opposing ideologies, Gary. You want to just throw random terms around, why not call liberals poopie-heads? "Facist-socialist" just makes you sound... well... you get the idea.

Why is the Washington Post -- and all the other mainstream media -- writing and writing about Obama's ministers while they totally ignore the frightening ones who are McCain's supporters and friends, such as John Hagee?

Whe is the media so intent on Obama's ministers while they totally ignore the frightening ones who are McCain's supporters and friends, such as John Hagee?

Gary, obviously not using a dictionary:
"...but thats what facist-socialist liberals do. we are on to you."

Who's "we"? The *other* nine people who don't know what "fascist" means (or how it's spelled)?

Fascist means all power concentrated in one person. That would be our current President Worst Ever, supported by his war criminal Vice President, Cheney the Dick.

You sound pretty stupid, Gary. The whole country is onto losers like you and Dubya. Must hurt bad to have to support someone as inarticulate and full of lies as George.

i don't care what the man says. i do care if the candidate for pres. considers him his spiritual guide. nothing wrong with knowing. something wrong with trying to hide it. but thats what facist-socialist liberals do. we are on to you.

I thought that Church and State were separated in the Constitution. Have politics gotten so shameful that Presidential Candidates cannot choose their own Pastors or places of worship without political spin and controversy. Every candidate has had some person from their camp say or do something offensive to another candidate. Both McCain and Obama have had religious leaders who support them say things that may offend some people. I hope Americans are smart enough to vote on the issues they support and not on the political spin of religious politics.

Agree with Thistlethwaite. It's all a bunch of pedantic nonsense to focus in on a single element of a message, ignore the larger context completely, and then try to use that disembodied fact to tar an associated character. The fallacies here are innumerable - what troubles me the most is how susceptible people are to this tactic.

It's a shame they don't teach critical thinking in Sunday school.

"There are plenty of other non-Republican Christians who also find such references distateful."

I doubt it. There are, however, plenty of non-Republicans who find attacking one's faith as the sleaziest political move you can make, considering their own glass house - the unexplainable love for a Jew- and black-hater like Billy Graham, the amazing hatemongers such as James Dobson, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell - there's nothing worse as religious "leaders" then these pieces of human crap. Nothing in Obama's religious past comes close to these religious criminals.

Grow up. Quit pretending you're a black woman. Any black person unaware of the lies of the right wing media the last seven years has his/her head up her butt. Any black person unaware of the vicious attack being performed by the right wing on Obama and Clinton has been in a coma.

Your God doesn't seem to have any power at all. If he delights in mercy, then why do so many die of hunger everyday? Sounds like a weak and useless deity to me. I'd trade it in for some reality.

Pres. Thistlethwaite,

It is not only the religious right who finds references such as Moss' repugnant.

I am an African-American woman, politically independent, with an M.Div., who attended Spelman College (Moss attended Morehouse); I am younger than he.

I personally find references to Tupac and the like to be UNACCEPTABLE in sermons for reasons that I will not enumerate here.

My point is that it's not just Hannity and the Republicans who disagree with Moss' (and other similar preachers') methods. There are plenty of other non-Republican Christians who also find such references distateful. Defining their scrutiny as purely political is a mistake, I think.

Whether their intent is political or no I will not attempt to judge (didn't the Christ you quoted say that all judgment is committed into His hands? Not yours, then!)

So if you feel competent to judge the "right wing media outlets," feel free.

But as I understand it, God delights in mercy.

And what makes you the judge of what is God's true word?

Wiccan,

You have an issue with God's word being preached in it's true sense. When God's word is spoken, it burns the ears. I speak God's truth in love and sometimes when you have to say to someone that we are all depraved and live in opposition to God and it's appointed unto men once to die and then comes the judgment: it's not something that no one likes saying to anyone but what's more loving. Read 1 and 2 Cornthians and also read Hebrews and you'll see what I mean. God's word is very offensive and foolish to those who don't really understand the Gospel; as 1 Corinthians states.

I have no problem with God's word being preached in a different manner nor does it matter to me if hymns are not sung as long as it's worshipping and glorifying God. I have heard some of what Pastor Moss said and we can also use our ministries for selfish gain, that's what I was saying. As you may probably know and may agree that there are several pastors or teachers that may have been by God but have puffed themselves up and now have idols in their heart like pride, greed, selfish ambition. I have a pastor that preaches the entire counsel of God and it's quite offensive to those who are not willing to surrender their lives to Christ so I applaud those who preach God's word, in season and out of season, correct, rebuke with great instruction as we see men will not put up w/sound doctrine for one Sunday, much less every Sunday or during the week; Also, rebellion is likened to sin of witchcraft. In addition, any born-again Child of God has a ministry; it doesn't have to be preaching in the pulpit. Yes, there are also several seminaries and bible colleges who are so much more interested in planting churches, how to have an effective ministry, and how not to offend those in the pews, don't talk about sin, repentance, holiness, i.e., just make everyone feel good, rile up the crowd. In addition, take a look at what statistics show what the term born again now means in today's society (having a form of Godliness but no power over sin). Lastly, how can we say we love God and not do the things that our Lord calls us to do like feed the poor, take care of the orphans; help all those that are oppressed; that's also part of our ministry. However, I do believe that alot of what is said from these posts are one-sided and really don't have anything to do with theology; it's political.

Did my eyes deceive me? Did Angela, the person who has received the Christ's love but has none to give others, the one who hates everyone not cast in her mold, the one who judges others mercilessly but cries when she is judged, the one who waits breathlessly for all of the heathen to burn in torment eternally, actually call someone else a clanging (not clinging) cymbal?

Do you know how badly YOU fail the Corinthians test?

Apparently, the right can't make its case on issues, so they rely on the tried and true tactics of character assassination and guilt by association.

And, as usual, those who crow the loudest about 'values' and 'character' display neither.

For some reason the post that says from Angela is from me but it says Angela, don't know how that happened. The one referring to "fools".

Thank you for your analysis, Dr. Brooks Thistlethwaite. I've been deeply saddened by the way Trinity has been attacked throughout the campaign, and it's good to see someone contextualizing the theology of that church and showing how sermons preached there are being manipulated for Cable Newshow ratings, esp. when that contextualization happens in the mainstream press. Be well, and keep pushing your students, the public, and the church forward.

I think you aren't getting what I am saying.
I am calling people fools because the bible calls them that. Fools are the people who don't understand or choose not to do what is right. The BIBLE calls them fools. So shall it be.

I never said anything about his degrees or theology and I don't think he is creating a new "theology" as you put it. But what I will say is that ministers can teach a word in a manner that might not be "the normal" to some people and people will talk about it like they have sinned against God. That was my point. I don't see anything wrong with a pastor who preaches a message in a different method. How is that any of you could say that it was wrong what he did? Did he curse or say that Jesus wasn't the way to see the Father? I don't think so. I don't know the exact words nor have I heard the entire message, but I do know that it's TIME OUT for people to stop pulling soundbytes from a PASTOR NOT A POLITICIAN and making it appar to be something that it isn't. That my dear is whichcraft (manipulation). I have never endorsed Obama nor did I say I agreed with Rev. Wright or Moss. I simply stated that if a preacher changes the format or the "traditional" style of preaching why are people so reluctant to receive the word. The word is the word. If he raps a song, if he sings hymns, if he acts it out on stage, if they dance it out at the altar, if they speak eloquently or if they speak Ebonics, THE WORD IS THE WORD. So please do not misinterpret what my point was. It is so crazy that people think that all preachers should teach the same way. What Susan stated in the message was that Moss mentioned the word thugs. What is so wrong with that. If the people you are talking to are thugs or understand the "thug culture" why not. He didn't curse or say anything profane did he? So what he used a sonnet to talk about love. I mean come on now. This is exactly what Jesus did. Everything he did was "out of the ordinary" AND AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THE WORLD.

We are all called to be Ministers of the Gospel. Every Born Again Believer is called to teach and minister the word of God. Now being ordained and having a ministry is something different. You have to be called to be a Pastor of a Church. Who are you or anyone else to say that Moss wasn't called. He went through all of the training and courses and classes JUST to Prepare himself for the work of the ministry. That's what any good teacher will do. You can't sit here and tell me that to be a Pastor it only requires that you be called? Yes you have to be called but you do need to know other things. And there isn't anything wrong with taking your learning of the word of God and the history of the bible to another level. I find that wrong of anyone to think that it was wrong for him to want to do that. Yes there are pastors who start out not having those degreese and schooling but for some reason they all end up taking those courses to better understand the history of what they are preaching. I hope that clarifies some things.

What,

When we preach sermons that glorify us instead of God, then it's selfish ambition. Also, we are all sinners and some of which are saved by grace in faith in Jesus Christ from the godly sorrow that produces repentance and in effect "salvation". There are several people who have theology and divinity degrees and some preach from what they learned from textbooks. Emotionalism doesn't mean spirit-led. Why are you so offended and why do you call people fools; you are one who sounds like a pharisee; without love, a clinging cymbal...

Of course, that's what people do. They find any little thing good someone is doing and try to make it evil. That is the way of the world. I know of a preacher named Jentzen Franklin from Georgia. He did a play for teenagers where it involved people standing on stage dancing and acting like they were drinking. Will they go out and say this is wrong because it isn't the gospel? Probably so because there are still these Holier than thou people walking the earth that want everyone to sit in the pews and not speak and not be free to worship God as he directs them and then they want them to only read the gospel and nothing else. Those are the same type people that said that it was blasphemous for Jesus to heal someone on the Sabbath. And the same ones that cried out Hosanna Hosanna one day and crucify him the next. So I pay these people NO ATTENTION.

Rev. Moss was teaching a group of young people. Now if these young people only here one thing and know of one thing and that's the hip hop culture, why can't he change his STYLE of sermon? It isn't changing the message. The message is still the same. Just because I don't speak in Latin and pray in Hebrew doesn't make it any less "the gospel" than if I rapped about it.

STOP YOUR NONSENSE AND GET OVER IT!
The world is changing and you need to keep up with it. Jesus would be proud of Moss. Also note that Obama is technically not a member of that church anymore and that was prior to this whole Rev. Wright thing. And Moss is Wright's successor because Wright isn't the pastor there anymore as he retired.

NOTHING AT ALL WRONG WITH WHAT MOSS SAID AND WHY DON'T THESE FOOLS JUST STOP THEIR BICKERING AND FIND SOMETHING TO REALLY ARGUE ABOUT AND FIGHT FOR. How about you argue about thousands of children not being educated properly because of all of the problems with No Child Left Behind Act?
HOw about you argue over the fact that our troops are sitting over there and not winning a thing? How about you argue over the fact that Hillary Clinton is a liar and they probably want her to win because they know McCain will BEAT her badly? How about we fight over the fact that when Katrina hit New Orleans it took weeks for stuff to get there to help those people, yet America shipped supplies and assistance clear across the World to help people who don't even want our help?
HOW ABOUT WE ARGUE AND FIGHT ABOUT THAT!

Hi Susan,

I'm really amazed at your one-sided, unfair minded posts. Yep, pride and wining...black theology; it's radical, divisive. What does Isaiah 5:20-44 state: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. 22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. 24 Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames,so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the LORD Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel. Philipians 1:16-17; 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. Ephesians 4:36-6; 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Galatians: 1:6-9; Gal 1:6-8 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Just imagine dear Susan Brooks having wasted 20 years of her life and continuing trying to fit politics into religion. Its all caused by the sin of pride.

As a black christian male it saddens and offends to hear about the liberalization of theological seminary studies. Has the pure gospel become to boring to 21st century ears that new theologies that diverge from the orthodox teaching of Christ now proliferate? Coyne got it wrong as have many others.
The apostle Paul warned in the last days there would come many teaching another gospel. I believe he would consider Black Liberation Theology a herasy and apostate. It is so contrary to the true gospel its absurd. In fact this not even a theology but a philosophy based on political ideologies and does not belong in any house of God. That includes Word of faith teaching, healing ministries, and speaking in tounges. Has anyone ever translated a tounge speaker? When the perfect one came these apostolic gifts sre no longer needed.
Did Christ condesend to man to overthrow the Roman oppressors?, when perhaps hundreds of thousand were persecuted and executed in the most heinous ways over hundreds of years. The Jews were waiting for the messiah who would liberate them from years of oppresion and persecution.
There is nothing positive that can be said of these teachings. What we have today are many opportunist apostate tachers who are becoming rich and build mega-churches. They have their reward. We ought not add to nor take away from the word of God. Judgement will begin in the pulpit.

As a black christian male it saddens and offends to hear about the liberalization of theological seminary studies. Has the pure gospel become to boring to 21st century ears that new theologies that diverge from the orthodox teaching of Christ now proliferate? Coyne got it wrong as have many others.
The apostle Paul warned in the last days there would come many teaching another gospel. I believe he would consider Black Liberation Theology a herasy and apostate. It is so contrary to the true gospel its absurd. In fact this not even a theology but a philosophy based on political ideologies and does not belong in any house of God. That includes Word of faith teaching, healing ministries, and speaking in tounges. Has anyone ever translated a tounge speaker? When the perfect one came these apostolic gifts sre no longer needed.
Did Christ condesend to man to overthrow the Roman oppressors?, when perhaps hundreds of thousand were persecuted and executed in the most heinous ways over hundreds of years. The Jews were waiting for the messiah who would liberate them from years of oppresion and persecution.
There is nothing positive that can be said of these teachings. What we have today are many opportunist apostate tachers who are becoming rich and build mega-churches. They have their reward. We ought not add to nor take away from the word of God. Judgement will begin in the pulpit.

When will Americans stop falling for the fallacy of "guilt by association"?

Many people go to the church of their parents, or the closest church, or the church that they think will be best for their children in supporting community and a moral upbringing. If everyone had to agree with their preacher on every or most statements, it would be musical chairs in the pews across all the denominations.

But rattling the cages of the far right by getting PR firms to construct preacher stories designed to cause outrage will always be easier than getting the religious right to think for themselves. They are used to looking to authorities to do their thinking for them.

Susan,

The better way for the Reverend Moss would be to speak the truth about the "fems" of religion i.e. the flaws, errors, muck and stench.

e.g.

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

The muck and stench of non-Catholic Christian churches you ask?

Adulterous preachers and atonement theology.