Led Into Temptation, One Point at a Time

Dear Thomas Baum -

Well, your response to my questions was pathetic, to say the least.

Really, is that the best you can do? "Science says there was a first man...ergo, that's who the Bible musta been talkin' about when it mentioned Adam."

Here's the problem with your lame answers, Thomas: I ask you SPECIFIC questions about SPECIFIC things in the Bible, and you come back with generalities that don't address the question. YET, you base your faith on the idea that the Bible is providing you with SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE about how the world functions.

I'm sorry, but your responses are those of a child. It's really sad to watch a grown man like yourself offering such mindless illogic as an answer. You don't even make an attempt at a cogent, adult response.

Take care. Be ready...to read a book, that is...preferably, a science book.

The Emptiness of Theology

by Richard Dawkins

A dismally unctuous editorial in the British newspaper The Independent recently asked for a reconciliation between science and "theology." It remarked that "People want to know as much as possible about about their origins." I certainly hope they do, but what on earth makes one think that theology has anything useful to say on the subject?

Science is responsible for the following knowledge about our origins. We know approximately when the universe began and why it is largely hydrogen. We know why stars form and what happens in their interiors to convert hydrogen to the other elements and hence give birth to chemistry in a world of physics. We know the fundamental principles of how a world of chemistry can become biology through the arising of self replicating molecules. We know how the principal of self replication gives rise, through Darwinian selection, to all life, including humans.

It is science and science alone that has given us this knowledge and given it, moreover, in fascinating, over-whelming, mutually confirming detail. On every one of these questions theology has held a view that has conclusively been proved wrong.

Science has eradicated smallpox, can immunize against most previously deadly viruses, can kill most previously deadly bacteria.
Theology has done nothing but talk of pestilence as the wages of sin. Science can predict when a particular comet will reappear and, to the second, when the next eclipse will appear. Science has put men on the moon and hurtled reconnaissance rockets around Saturn and Jupiter. Science can tell you the age of a particular fossil and that the Turin Shroud is a medieval fake. Science knows the precise DNA instructions of several viruses and will, in the lifetime of many present readers, do the same for the human genome.
What has theology ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has theology ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? I have listened to theologians, read them, debated against them; I have never heard any of them say anything of the smallest use; anything that was not either platitudinously obvious or downright false. If all the achievements of scientists were wiped out tomorrow, there would be no doctors but witch doctors, no transport faster than horses, no computers, no printed books, no agriculture beyond subsistence peasant farming. If all the achievements of theologians were wiped out tomorrow, would anyone notice the smallest difference? The achievements of theologians don't do anything, don't effect anything, don't mean anything. What makes anyone think that "theology" is a subject at all?

"The Emptiness of Theology" by Richard Dawkins published in "Free Inquiry" Spring 1998.

MR MARK

You wrote, "You don't believe in a young Earth, but you believe that Adam actually existed. Wow. Go figure."

Adam or adam, also stands for the first man, was there a first man or has man always been in existence?

Back in the 70's, I took a course in astronomy and in that course, they said that with computer models they could get within a few seconds of what they call or at least back then called "The big bang".

If at one time the world was not in existence then I suppose man wasn't either, don't you think?

So it seems to me that science says that there was a first man, does it not?

You also wrote, "As far as man's nature changing over the 200,000 years of our species existence, yes, I'd say we have made incredible improvements. Deterioration? Not a chance."

Do you honestly think that man's actions in the 20th Century and his actions so far this century shows an incredible improvement in man's nature, I honestly cannot see how you can believe that, not to mention his actions prior to the 20th Century.

Yes, we as a species have made some marvelous achievements in different fields, but if you would get out of your lab and look at the world, not just America, man's inhumanity to man, as some put it, seems to just roll on but on a much bigger scale, does it not?

America is not the world but for that matter there is plenty wrong right here, all one has to do is open their eyes.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

GARYD writes:
What I believe sir is that the evidence of our senses is insufficient proof for either of us to prove our point as to the earth's antiquity."

Agreed, which is why I rely on the evidence that is provided above and beyond our senses to prove the Earth's antiquity, namely scientific instruments and measurements that accurately measure the age of things through the many forms of carbon dating that are employed by scientists. A fossil may look very, very old, but carbon dating may prove that it is even older. Or, a relic in a Jerusalem antiquities store may look very old, but carbon dating or even a high-resolution microscope may prove that the "antiquity" is actually of forgery of very recent vintage.

"The earth appears to be quite old but as the old saw goes appearances can be, and often are, deceiving."

Yes, appearances are deceiving, even when the witnesses are willing to swear to what they saw. In fact, the Bible provides that all one needs are two witnesses to attest to something as being a "fact," and that's considered a "fact" under Biblical law. Of course, the only fact that is insured by such a standard is that one only needs to get two people to agree to lie if one wishes to fabricate evidence (Ex: Jesus' trial and the two false witnesses).

Luckily for us, modern science provides a standard of proof that is far superior and more-reliable than that offered by the Bible's "because I said so" non-standard. That goes for solving crimes - where forensic evidence always beats eyewitness evidence, to dating the age of things - where carbon dating will always provide a surer proof than any eyewitness account (even one offered on a stack of Bibles), to the science of evolution and the origin of species - which is settled science and a proven and proven again fact that shows the Biblical fables of creation up for the childish "eyewitness" reports that they are and always have been.

I'm glad we agree on this point, GaryD. It give me hope that there's more common ground between us than I would have believed.

What I believe sir is that the evidence of our senses is insufficient proof for either of us to prove our point as to the earth's antiquity.

The earth appears to be quite old but as the old saw goes appearances can be, and often are, deceiving.

Nor, based upon what the Bible says, would I expect God to be amenable to human logic.

Dear Professor Thistlethwaithe,

For your perusal and class discussion:

Hmmm, greed?? Everyone knows the definition so let us look for early examples in an interesting domain, the founders and foundations of religions.

In Islam, we have the greed-lust driven, womanizing (11 wives), warmongering, hallucinating founder of said religion the long-dead Arab, Mohammed.

In Christianity (including Mormonism), the "historic" founder was the simple preacher man, long-dead Jewish fellow, Jesus. Not much greed there but one can make a case for the following steps for the start of greed in the said religion:

Christian economics 101:

The Baptizer drew crowds and charged for the "dunking". The historical Jesus saw a good thing and continued dunking and preaching the good word but added "healing" as an added charge to include free room and board. Sure was better than being a poor peasant but he got a bit too zealous and they nailed him to a tree.

Paul picked up the money scent on the road to Damascus. He added some letters and a prophecy of the imminent second coming for a fee for salvation and "Gentilized" the good word to the "big buck" world. i.e. Paul was the first media evangelist!!! And he and the other Apostles forgot to pay their Roman taxes and the legendary actions by the Romans made them martyrs for future greed.

Along comes Constantine. He saw the growing rich Christian community and recognized a new tax base so he set them "free".

The Holy Roman "Empirers"/Popes/Kings/Queens et al continued the money grab selling access to JC and heaven resulting in some of today's
richest organizations on the globe i.e. the Christian churches (including the Mormon Church) and related aristocracies.

An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue, ( Professors Crossan and Wright are On Faith panelists).

"Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

Judaism - Because the foundations are so mythical, it is impossible to be historical about greed in said religion. The historical King Herod and his off-springs were with the assistance of Rome, however, were a very greedy bunch.

Hinduism and Buddhism- A Google search will take you to many instances of greed in the leadership of said religions even though like other religions greed is a major sin and disorder.

i had verbalized an invitation for Your Funeral to be in Anadolu, i am afraid they are not my personal words, for this reason i apologize for keeping You busy with this article in Your Prayers.

Rahmi Coach (Bursa Tofas Araba Fabrikasi ve Anadolu Arabalari Muzesi) Yapi Kredi

Patriark Bartholomeos, Queen of England, Guler Sabanci, Yasar Buyukanit

Yapi Kredi Murahhas Uyesi, kisi borcuna sadik kalmasi icin faizler yuksek duracak, kredi kartlarina karsi bir lobi mi var diyor. Istanbul Belediyesi ve Isvicre ile kurulmus Koc Ailesi tarafindan yurutulen Migros Ingilizlere veriliyor.

iyi de borcu yaptiranlarin borcu ne olacak? nasil odeyecekler?

President Williams Bush

having seen the cheer in the face of women
with one dress, one husband and several children, reminded me of .. reminded me of ... first years in the West of Anadolu.

T Baum writes:

"I do not believe that the earth is only 8,000 years, more of less, old. I have no idea how old it is, I, personally, do not believe that God was in a rush when He made it."

He also writes:

"Take a "honest" look at reality and whether or not you believe that man always was or that there was a beginning for man also, has man's nature changed any since adam or if anything has it even deteriorated some?"

You don't believe in a young Earth, but you believe that Adam actually existed. Wow. Go figure.

As far as man's nature changing over the 200,000 years of our species existence, yes, I'd say we have made incredible improvements. Deterioration? Not a chance.

In fact, through the acquisition of knowledge, our species is headed in the opposite direction. We are abandoning our base nature and beginning to guide our lives through our intellect and our capacity for compassion. Case in point: gay marriage, which will be the law of the land in a few decades, tops. A signal example of our species evolving intellectually to where we are able to see human relations as something higher than the biological imperative to couple and to procreate.

We have decided as a species that war is not a solution, even as knuckle draggers like gw bush (and, sadly, many others like him still afflicted with religion's sense of entitlement) insist on it as a first option. We are losing our reliance on tribal associations as a prerequisite for trust and for our living together. We are abandoning the fears and fantasies of the faith-based beliefs that have held our species back for centuries, and are moving ever forward into the inexorable light of reason and fact. Nationalism, racism and sexism are more and more being regarded as negatives in the world-wide community, rather than the accepted "way of things" as advocated by the ignorant and hate-filled beliefs of our earlier years...and as codified in the so-called "holy books" of man's more-primitive mind.

We live longer. We enjoy better lives. We have a higher regard for our species - and, indeed, all other species on this planet - than we had even a short 60 years ago. Against all odds, and against the very biological facts that sit at the center of all life, we are ever advancing as a species.

We are - in fact - creating our own evolution as a species on an accelerated time scale that natural evolution would take tens of thousands of years to accomplish. We do this through our intellect, through our reasoning, developed minds. And, we do it best without the hindrance imposed upon us by the sadly incomplete and retrograde "reasoning" of our Bronze-Age ancestors.

Strangely, as we become more more tolerant of humans who are different from us, the most-recent studies show that our physical evolution is making us ever more diverse, at least in the sense that we are biological life forms who are evolving due to our specific geographical/climatic influences on the same.

When you think about it, it's really quite a beautiful thing, for even as we become more dislike each other physically and biologically, we are becoming more alike in our intellectual realization that the old (ie: religious) order of things MUST be discarded if we are to continue to prosper and progress as a species.

How anyone could consider such a self-actuating blessing to be a "deterioration" is beyond me.

MR MARK

You wrote, "Christians are always insisting that mankind has a "fallen nature."

Where is the data that supports such a statement?"

The data is reality, you call it human nature and I call it a fallen nature, it is one and the same. Take a "honest" look at reality and whether or not you believe that man always was or that there was a beginning for man also, has man's nature changed any since adam or if anything has it even deteriorated some?

Check out the 20th century, some of the most revolutionary changes in the technology of mankind and also one of the most, if not the most to date, grusome times for man's nature to shine thru, reality or not?

You also wrote, "So how do the Xians get to their "fallen nature" paradigm?"

Why do you persist in looking at people by labels rather than looking at the person as an individual, granted some people who call themselves christians are arrogant and by the same token some people who call themselves atheist are arrogant and some people that put other labels on themselves are arrogant, all that that means is that some people are arrogant, it really does not have anything to do with what they call themselves, does it?

Then you wrote, " To believe this, you must believe that the Earth is only 8,000 years old, that man is only a few days younger".

I do not believe that the earth is only 8,000 years, more of less, old. I have no idea how old it is, I, personally, do not believe that God was in a rush when He made it.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

GARYD sez:
The fallen nature of man is reflected by his seemingly innate selfishness."

Question: do you believe the story of Adam and Eve is literally true?

Do you disbelieve that we are evolved creatures who have been on the planet for 100-200,000 years, or do you believe otherwise?

Thanks.

The fallen nature of man is reflected by his seemingly innate selfishness.

Thomas Baum writes:

"Just because we all have a "fallen nature" doesn't mean that we have to live down to it, do we?"

Christians are always insisting that mankind has a "fallen nature."

Where is the data that supports such a statement?

What percentage of human beings are thieves?

What percentage are murderers?

If one looks at those things that we humans call "major crimes," the percentages of humans committing such crimes are rather small. Let's face it, if even a slight majority of human beings engaged in such crimes, we'd all be dead by now.

So how do the Xians get to their "fallen nature" paradigm?

Simple - by criminalizing human/biological nature itself. They start with the sex act - an act of procreation that is common to every biological life form on the planet - and graft on a criminal element to that act. So, pre-marital sex is a crime, even though the state doesn't recognize it as such and even though every other form of life on this planet doesn't get married to begin with and pretty much engages in pre-marital sex all the time. Sex outside of marriage is a crime, even though both religion and the state provide remedies for such a "crime."

On and on it goes with religion, to the point that they run out of physical acts to criminalize and enter into the world of thought crimes, where even a fleeting thought to have sex before you're married is a "sin," to where lusting in your heart after someone else's wife is just as bad a "sin" as committing adultery.

Our "fallen nature" is arrived at by the religionists by first criminalizing the urges and realities that come along with our being evolved, biological life forms, and then holding us up to some "higher standard" proposed by an imaginary god, a god who is himself the product of our own "fallen," fearful biological brains. And even here, that so-called "higher standard" is belied by any investigation of the nature of "god," who in his criminality and wanton acts is worse than any human or group of humans could ever hope to lower themselves to.

The point is that you can ONLY believe in man having a fallen nature IF you believe that the fable of Adam and Eve is literally true, that men didn't evolved but were created in a perfect state and "fell" from that state after they were created. To believe this, you must believe that the Earth is only 8,000 years old, that man is only a few days younger than that and that the very first homo sapiens was a guy named Adam who came from nowhere, and that the second person was some lady named Eve who came from Adam's rib (unless, of course, you read a few chapters later in the same "infallible" book and learn that Adam had a wife before Eve...or if you read the TWO DIFFERENT creation stories found in Genesis, one, where Adam and Eve were created at the same time, the other, where Adam was created first and Eve came later).

So, let's stop with the "fallen nature" BS, already. It's the least any self-respecting human can ask of himself and his fellow beings.

Susan Thistlethwaite

have we talked about OnFaith in Washington Post? no? allright.

good interface.

Armenia? no. they dont cheat me.

Russia, did you make agreements with this government on us? did this government sell us to you? what do you know about Suudi Arabia, Pope Benedictus?

Why absolve those of blame who bought homes they couldn't afford and now expect the rest of us to bail them out? We all need housing to be sure but we don't need 2000-3000 sq foot yuppie mansions and an acre or two of land to go with it.

Why is it that the war against Iraq and Afghanistan which equals about 1-5% of federal spending per Annum responsible for a debt that is significantly larger than that?

We have been running the government on credit since LBJ started the ineffective war on poverty in the 1960's.

CECIL

Nice post. You are right, we are not to just wait and do nothing, we have to live our lives and in whatever way, big or small, at least try to realize that we are all brothers and sisters on this planet.

One of the things that can be helpful is to not even care if we see any fruits of our labors, just try to do the best that we can and when we fall short which we are do, keep on keeping on, so to speak.

Even if we know what our job on this planet is, that doesn't mean that we know how to do it, so we just try to do it the best that we can.

God has a Plan and it is much better than plenty of people think that it is and it is much better than some people even want it to be, but God's Plan will come to Fruition in God's Time and God's Plan is for ALL.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

they havent paid the blood of Ahmet prophet and His grandsons and those of Africans and Europeans yet!

and in Anadolu (rise, east), shall they rise in the East? and the government wants to be in European Union, in West and in Europe! while they are active in Anadolu, we suffer because of their procedures. and they are authorities with power money and ceremonies!

and Europe does not want them in, at least France not, and we are stuck under spell and debt and other applications and experiments! when this shall come to an end!?

and the beasts to be on the surface in Islam are not from aghartha, they are those under their hearts in their stomach and abdomen!

and it is not the way Adiyaman Suphan Nemrut Persian Moses Muhammed Spanish Geylani Religious Radio-Call Officers know!

and the power in this government, army and universities, that Russia USA Israel France granted, is already hidden and effective also. what the government on internet did already hit us drop onto the ground. no one is able to ask for explanation to the Ministry of Interior. they ask it from Turk Telekom of Jordan, not from other mobile phone operators.

rusvetin belgesi mi olur! elektromanyetik etkinin buyunun belgesi mi olur! uyandiktan ve basina gelenleri farkettikten sonra! and Williams Bush, did you teach this government who are in Crimson Circle of Tobias? James Jeffrey and Theodore Shivenley. they dont know your language, Williams Bush.

As usual, this post by Thistlethwaite is excellent. I am also pleased that most of the responses to her post are serious, well written, and thought provoking. I wish I had something profound to add, but as several have said, "I have no solution" to the mess we are in.

Undoubtedly greed is a factor in the mess. But is greed the "Mother of all sin"? I have no idea, but I do know that we all have WANTS as well as NEEDS, and too often we go after our wants with very little regard for our neighbor's welfare (near neighbors and those far away).

Will things get better? For some, yes. For the world? History paints a pessimistic picture, but we can hope.

And while we are hoping and waiting for that "Great Day Coming" maybe we can do more than just wait. I believe that people can improve, can become better beings - including becoming a bit less greedy. By doing so we may not change the world, but we may do a better job of taking care of our small corner, and that is something really worth while.

We live in a capitalist society, so we must expect the business community to take advantage of the opportunities which arise. The business community did not talk the president and his "advisors" to mislead the country into attacking a third rate power with the notion that this country was a threat to our security. The president seems to want to leave a legency which
would define his presidency. Instead he has lead the country into a quagmire, exploding prices, a deflated housing market,shuttered plants, "hero's" returning home in aluminum coffins, "hero's returning home to jobs lost because they volunteered for the military or were
in units activated for duty in the president's war(unlawful terminations), "hero's returning home
suffering from the trauma of war and committing
suicide at an alarming rate, "hero's returning home to attempt to restore their place within the family structure, and all the presidents men shouted "AMEN."

We live in a capitalist society, so we must expect the business community to take advantage of the opportunities which arise. The business community did not talk the president and his "advisors" to mislead the country into attacking a third rate power with the notion that this country was a threat to our security. The president seems to want to leave a legency which
would define his presidency. Instead he has lead the country into a quagmire, exploding prices, a deflated housing market,shuttered plants, "hero's" returning home in aluminum coffins, "hero's returning home to jobs lost because they volunteered for the military or were
in units activated for duty in the president's war(unlawful terminations), "hero's returning home
suffering from the trauma of war and committing
suicide at an alarming rate, "hero's returning home to attempt to restore their place within the family structure, and all the presidents men shouted "AMEN."

Tomb John's
Chest Bump Chest Bump You Are My Chest Bump

It seems to me that we are functioning under an outmoded methodology of business. It still grinds on in the "survival of the fittest" mode and thus all manner of behavior on the part of the "corporation" is reasonable as long as it is directed toward making money. This is excused under the claim that the purpose of business is that, and that it is legally mandated on behalf of shareholders.

Thus the oil companies look aghast at suggestions that they should voluntarily hold down prices when they have obscene profit margins.

We are failing to place the corporation in the world so to speak. Is it moral for any "person" to acquire, no matter how talented, this amount of profit when millions go to sleep hungry? I would argue no, and while individuals who run those companies are not necessarily personally greedy, they are making decisions that assist in corporate greed of unprecedented amounts.

The world is quickly turning into a place wherein corporate giants with little or no accountability run it. Political entities are I would submit of lesser and lesser importance and will be even less so if we do not corral this obsession with being bigger and making more all in the name of shareholders.

It requires a complete and utter relook at the entire structure. We have gone through such things before, major shifts in how the world works if you will. The fact that we are all so interconnected now makes this perhaps more problematic but in another sense, solutions will quickly be felt worldwide as well. I am not the one having the solution, but the problem is obvious. Unaccountable corporate expansion and profit for the few must give way to a more equitable distribution of resources. To do anything less is simply immorality to the highest degree.

First off, I am an American for the simple fact that I was born in America. Everybody that has been born was born somewhere which is just another label that we put upon ourselves, is it not?

All human beings are human beings, sounds simple doesn't it?

Just because we all have a "fallen nature" doesn't mean that we have to live down to it, do we?

We are all in this together whether we like it or not, aren't we?

Has anyone noticed that most people in America and the rest of the "developed" world live better, at least materially, than Kings and Queens and the rest of their entourage did just a few hundred years ago while there are many people around the world that are barely surviving and some that aren't surviving at all and also some right here in America and the rest of the "developed" world that are in dire straits?

I am not offering any solutions but one thing that I am offering is a chance for some to open their eyes and see that we are all human beings, remember, sounds simple doesn't it?

Could "greed" not just be wanting more and more and more but also be having blinders on and not even seeing the reality around you and at least trying to help, in whatever way you can, even tho it may seem like a bottomless pit?

It is important what we do and why we do it and what we know.

We do not live in a perfect world and we are not going to make it a perfect world but we can at least try to make it better in whatever way, big or small, that we can, of course that is a decision that is up to each and every individual, is it not?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.