Spies in the Pews? Is Nothing Sacred?

You talk about the disastrous course of mixing religion and politics. But, on this very same website there is another article saying that they can mix. Which is it? Or is it okay, either way, only when it is benefiting your side?

Politics and religion have always been mixed. Our country's earliest documents have religion interlaced in them.

If any church is following the true teachings of Christ they should welcome any and everyone into their services. There should not be anything to hide or worry about. Why not embrace the spies into your church. To me it sounds like there is something to hide. If you are going to shout from the pulpit of politic about the influence that the minister of your church has had on your life and your beliefs, then you better believe that your church and minister will be scrutinized. Anything that the candidates put before the nation is fair game.

Talk about twisted liberal logic. First the strange idea that what is said in any church is not public communication when the preacher is selling tapes and putting it on television. The whole desire of the local church is that the whole community hear the sermon. The Gospel is to be "shouted from the housetops." Now since some of those sermons contain hate language they are somehow not suppose to be quoted. If John McCain had a pastor who talked this way and it had been quoted, the New York Times would already have killed his nomination. Hate speech is hate speech in a White church and even in a Black church and the American public gets that and Obama's candidacy for president was ended by the hate speech of his own pastor who has refused to even apologize. You can fool some of the people some of the time...

I suspect Ms. Thistelthwaite is an Obama supporter and would not be making such sanctimonious requests if McCain had a KKK member as a pastor.

The reality is that being President is a big deal. You are asking to speak for all Americans. Obviously, no one does. Obama claims to. The fact that his "spiritual father" does not embrace whites or Jews is germane to the discussion of whether the average white or Jew wants Obama to represent them as President.

Rev Wright was and is a public person and he makes his sermons available on DVD at the back of the church. If what he says and does are so precious, I suspect he wouldn't be collecting cash for them at the door.

If Obama and Rev Wright want people to stop investigating them, stop being a public figure. Obama should resign from the Senate and Rev Wright should stop selling his sermons and collecting speaking fees.

I just e-mailed Susan with these thoughts....

I have been "in faith" long enough to have learned how to trust in the scriptures and am reminded that our Lord insisted - the gates of Hell will not prevail against My church.

If we will take our eyes (and ears) off of/from the political pundits long enough, we can be assured we will be made aware of the areas where we could be of service in his kingdom.

It seems to me that Mr. Wright brought politics to the pulpit first. I welcome anyone to my church, Sunshine CRC, and my paster encourages note taking. He has nothing to hide.

AMEN! and...

"Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power." ~Eric Hoffer

"I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~Mahatma Gandhi

"There is no god higher than truth." ~Mahatma Gandhi

"Intolerance is evidence of impotence." ~Aleister Crowley

"Christians are supposed not merely to endure change, nor even to profit by it, but to cause it." ~Harry Emerson Fosdick

"There are many of us that are willing to do great things for the Lord, but few of us are willing to do little things." ~Dwight L. Moody

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." ~Voltaire

"Never do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it." ~Albert Einstein

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." ~Thomas Jefferson

"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak and that it is doing God's service, when it is really violating all His laws." ~ John Adams

"Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." ~Thomas Jefferson (Motto on his seal)

"The nobility of the soldier willing to give a life for country and God
lies silent and still amidst the broken promises of leaders.
Send them not to futile sacrifice on shores so far from home.
But keep your word to all that serve that none shall die in vain."
~ a poem by Rich Raitano, a brother Vietnam medic

"We Americans have no commission from God to police the world."  ~Benjamin Harrison, address to Congress, 1888

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WARNING: Due to presidential executive orders and signing statements, and provisions passed by the previous Republican-controlled Congress, the National Security Agency may have read this posting, as well as and any other private correspondence of mine, and may listen to my private phone conversations without warrant, warning, or notice, and certainly without probable cause. They may also arrest me without telling me of any charges against me, even transport me outside the United States, and hold me secretly and indefinitely in an undisclosed location without notifying my wife or relatives, and deny me access to an attorney. They may take my property under the executive order of July 17, 2007, never to be returned. They may torture me without fear of penalty or repercussions to them for their actions. They may do all these things to me, or to you, with little or no judicial or legislative oversight. This danger became ever more apparent, and ominous, on Sept. 19, 2007, when the U.S. Senate failed to reinstate habeas corpus as an inalienable right of American citizens. I/We have no recourse nor protection save to call for the impeachment of the current president and vice-president, and voting to remove all rubber-stamp Republicans and neocons from office, as well as other elected officials acting only in their own interests instead of those of the People and the Constitution, be they occupying local, state, or national positions of authority.

"Spies in the Pew" ? Wow. I thought that if anyone observed something illegal it was an obligation to do something about it.

Or is a church taking a tax exempt status and then ignoring the trade offs for that status now in the realm of what I call "wink-wink" laws. These include lying under oath if it relates to a self defined "personal matters" and also includes not paying social security taxes on domestic help. We can add voting two places in the same election, and on and on. All churches (and hospitals--see today's Wall Street Journal) should pay taxes.
Jim B

From what I have seen UCC is far more political than Catholic or other protestant denominations. UCC today seems to be a place where politics inform faith more so than faith informing politics. So if you have people curious about your internal politics why are you crying foul? Can't Pastor Wright's simulated sex act stand the scrutiny of the parochial world? Can't Pastor Wright's and your church's politics stand up to secular scrutiny?

You seem to want the politics and the privacy afforded Madrassas in the Western world, why?

I found it interesting that you implied that people who take notes during a worship service are 'spies'. While I do not take notes, a friend I've know for over 35 years has always taken notes during worship. I never really understood why, but I am pretty sure she was/is not spying.

I found it interesting that you implied that people who take notes during a worship service are 'spies'. While I do not take notes, a friend I've know for over 35 years has always taken notes during worship. I never really understood why, but I am pretty sure she was/is not spying.

"If Obama were to become president, what would stop Mr. Obama from appointing Mr. Wright to his cabinet?"

The U.S. Senate has to confirm all Cabinet postings. Were you playing hooky the day that they taught that in Civics class in school?

Come on, people. If you're so spun up about what Obama's pastor said in a 30-second sound bite, go out and view the entire sermon on YouTube. Go out and visit TUCC's website and see what good they're doing in the community. Don't judge Obama, his pastor, or his Church by what you hear in sound bites.

Remember, there are a lot of other reasons to vote for or not vote for someone besides their religion.

Oh, and George Soros is not an advisor to the Obama campaign. He has stated his political preference for Obama, but is not connected with his campaign at all.

I am endlessly saddened by the sexism displayed toward Clinton, that nothing of hers, not her body, not her daughter is beyond molestation. More and more I wonder why women are such easy prey, regardless of who they are, where they are, and what they are trying to accomplish.

I say this as I stare at my black self in the mirror and empathize with that lady.

*chuckle.* You realize, JJ, you keep crying out for that 'savior' job, sooner or later you might get it.

All ready for it? Sounds like it. :)

Can't you see it? Like a whole world crying out for 'salvation,' and you'll be 'U R all gay. Don't be.'

Then when *that* doesn't help...

Gay Pagans? & Gay Christians? RULE, Rock & nRoll?

Maybe in La La land, but not here!

I just read all the responses to this post. I had almost forgotten how forgiving and charitable our religious and spiritually minded can be. Astonishing, really.

I am so impressed with this post. Thank you for settling this mattter in my mind fully and completely. This is not about religion. It is all about racism. Obama has to work twice as hard, be twice as diligent and be twice above reproach than his white counterparts. I am so deeply disappointed in Clinton. Thankyoufor your thoughtful and courageous comments.

There are no free passes, and it is essential that we not confuse critical analyses with bigotry. Barack Obama has a staff of advisors that common sense dictates should give us pause. These include Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Republicans answer to Henry Kissinger and billionaire kingmaker George Soros, both of the disastrous Carter administration. It was his incompetence led us to Reagan.

His pastor's affiliations are disgusting, not only because Farakhan is antisemitic (although that would be enough), but because he's anti-Christian, anti-Arab, anti-everyting that does not benefit him. (There is abundant material about him on the web.) That Wright should have given him a lifetime achievement award and accompanied him to Lybia to meet Gadaffi is unconscionable. Period. That Farakhan then endorsed Obama suggests that the two at least know one another. Clearly, Obama did not solicit Farakhan's support. He would have had to be insane to have done so. That is not the point.

Obama's advisors, his church affilition, his Carter connections raise questions. When, as a presidential aspirant, you make strange bedfellows, people will want to know more about them--and you.

As for McCain, anyone who has followed his career and his campaign can guess his true opinion of his new supporters. McCain has never been whole-heartedly accepted even by moderate republicans, in part, due to his pro-immigration stance, in part due to his relentless crusade for ethical campaign financing. Right-wing Republicans have always loathed him and did just about all they could to prevent his getting the nomination. They may yet rise again. To shut them up, he signed up two jerks. However, they are not, nor have they ever been his "spiritual advisors."

Obama deserves a fair playing field, and he has gotten much more than that. There are no Chris Matthews, Maureen Ghivens, Maureen Dowd, Gail Collins tearing at him, misrepresenting him, commenting on his blazers, his butt, his breasts, etc., as they have done with Clinton.

Enough. Stop whining.

it is important to not live in a space which only pays attention to 30 second soundbytes and only 30 second commercials. we live in a complex society.

30 seconds from a 2 hour sermon or speech can re-define anyone. the reverend helped a lot of helpless people in impoverished neigborhoods in chicago.

the bush administration was able to persuade the american people that the iraq war was justified by grinding their foreign policy initiatives down to 30 second soundbytes.

additionally, we must also try to remember that non-whites are not the majority of the u.s. population. and it is quite dangerous when majority populations (which collectively, have all the power and hold all the trump cards--obviously all individuals don't, but collectively) demonize minority populations (which collectively are powerless) because such minority populations could end up in a situation similar to what the jews found themselves in during the early 20th century. initially, they were demonized and overly scrutinized. then labeled enemies of the state.

Does the IRS have a duty to grant tax exempt status only to churches which ensure that ministers and politicians refrain from delivering political stump speeches as sermons?

In order for this department to prosecute violations of this provision, evidence must be obtained and provided. That is how the government and legal system should and must operate.

If church officials object to violation evidence being recorded, then the solution is simple - ensure that their religious services stick to religion, and forbid any misuse under the guise of religious sanctity!

Privilege is moderated by responsibility!

Yonkers, New York
29 March 2008

In this essay of hers, Susan Brooks Thistlewaite studiously avoids mentioning the fact that controversial Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright, erstwhile pastor of the Trinity UCC and for 20-some years Barack Obama's spiritual adviser, "virtual" uncle and close friend, intruded routinely--and recklessly?--into the political arena when he made all those unfounded and incendiary accusations against whites and against the US government and exhorted his flock, including Barack Obama, of course, not to intone "God bless America," but to curse, "God damn America!"

All these coming from supposedly a man of God!

No politician could have been more political than Rev. Wright and his toxic and malignant political rantings from his pulpit.

Was Rev. Wright all along fully aware that with his routine rantings from the pulput he was recklessly intruding into the political arena?

I have to assume that, being an intelligent human being, he was. Which is why I say that his intrusion was reckless, toxic and malignant.

Had Rev. Wright confined himself and his sermons, teachings and exhortations strictly to religious matters--as a religious person should--he certainly would not now be the object of so much well-deserved criticism, scrutiny and opprobrium.

It is unfortunate that his disciple, Barack Obama, obviously out of a decent but untimely sense of loyalty and friendship, has resisted suggestions for him to turn his back on Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright because he is now a Democratic presidential aspirant.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

If Obama's pastor's comments are unassailable like Ms. Thistlethwaite suggests, then the comments of Confucious cannot be critically examined, nor can the comments of Buddha, Mohamed, or Jesus be examined and criticized by the world at large.

I would argue that to not be able to discuss these arguments is at its heart a restriction of free speech. Any comment, phrase, word, sentence, and speech is spoken not just to be said, but for open dissemination if it is spoken to anyone.

Obama's pastor and therefore Barack Obama are under fire and scrutiny because of these comments and thats fine. The scrutiny is as intense as it is because of the nature of the comments, and that is fine. It is American to examine and criticize the words of leaders. You can not nor should you blindly follow the words of any leader. They must be examined closely. Obama didn't walk out (if he was even there) and therefore can be criticized for his actions (or lack thereof).

If this was George Bush's pastor spewing white supremacy and racist slurs, don't you think that we would be hearing much the same? And rightly so.

You are so right. The media is in a frenzy over Obama's pastor's sermons. The media won't let people forget. The media make me want to spew. Obama is not responsible for what Wright preached, nor is Obama guilty of anything for not quitting the church or refusing to have anything to do with Wright because of things he might have said. I have many friends who believe in things that I don't, that have said things that I don't agree with, but that doesn't make me disown them. They are still my friends for many other reasons.

This whole issue is stupid. Its no different than the idiotic celebrity worship the media engages in daily, the dumbing down of the news into idiotic concentration on things that matter little in life. While the media is trumpeting some stupid little controversy over and over again, the important things happening in the world get left unmentioned. No wonder the American public is so stupid and knows nothing of the rest of the world. Now the idiots in the media are sitting in the pews hoping Wright's sucessor will say something controversial so they can have another idiotic "fact" they can use to distract us from the important news of the world.

It is ridiculous. If the media was playing fair, they would be associating the racist, homophobic, and facist sayings and philosophy of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell with the Republican Party and dragging the Republicans through the dirt because of the association. But, oh no, the corporate owners of the media don't want that to happen, because the Republicans then won't give them the tax cuts and subsidies that benefit them so much at the expense of the rest of us taxpayers. It is a sad day for America, and a sadder day for democracy.

This is a very thoughtful and thought-provoking piece. I agree that the spying in church is quite chilling, and it reminds me of Tocqueville's observation that in some ways Americans in his day were actually less free than Europeans, despite the fact that Americans enjoyed a more democratic form of government. Tocqueville felt that, while Americans enjoyed greater political freedoms that Europeans, the social pressure to conform to acceptable opinions actually made them less free from a practical standpoint. I guess little has changed in the almost two centuries since Tocqueville made his observations about American democracy.

I have been a church-goer for most of my life, and have on many occasions heard things said from the pulpit that I disagreed with, sometimes quite strongly. On one occasion, I did actually leave a church forever because of something that was said from the pulpit. But that was my choice, one that I regarded then and still regard now as a highly personal choice. None of us has the right to expect or demand of another person that they leave their church for any reason. So, while it is perfectly acceptable for Americans to ask Mr. Obama to clarify his views on the content of what Pastor Wright said from the pulpit, the expectation that his only acceptable response would have been to leave the church is totally unacceptable.

Ms. Brooks' well-intended comments crash and burn on the rocky shoals of reality. Any speech delivered in public is subject to free and open dissemination. Period. The idea that a sermon delivered in church is somehow exempt is ludicrous on its face. Ms. Brooks crosses the line of acceptable criticism when she uses the term "spying" to characterize anyone who writes down a preacher's words and publicizes them. That is not spying. It's reporting.

Would reporting on Martin Luther King's speeches from the pulpit have been considered spying? Billy Graham's? How can reporting a preacher's sermon in Madison Square Garden or a football stadium be perfectly alright, but reporting on that same speech given in a church be spying? Do we want to exempt sermons in Islamic mosques from being reported?

This is America. Freedom of expression is my right to report what you said in public anywhere anytime, just like it's your right to say it to begin with.

Sorry,

When a minister becomes involved with a cult leader, gives him a lifetime achievement award, accompanies him to Lybia, questions will be asked. When a friend of his for twenty years is subsequently endorsed by said cult leader, questions will be asked. When that minister retires to a 1.6 million dollar home, questions will be asked.

When you are running for president, you open the door to questions. If more questions had been asked before the first Bush election, we might not be where we are.

Personally, I'd like to know more about Barack's advisors--Zbigniew Brzezinski, George Soros, et al.

Remember Zbig, the Secretary of State under whose guidance Khomeini took power and held Americans hostage in Iran?

And billionaire bigot George Soros?

Anyone have a tape recorder?

Susan wrote
“spies” among them in the pews

In Genesis it is written "We are all one man's sons; we are true men, thy servants are no spies." "Send one of you, and let him fetch your brother, and ye shall be kept in prison, that your words may be proved, whether there be any truth in you: or else by the life of Pharaoh surely ye are spies."

Look "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn."

Do you see "behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn." Not Pharaoh, he lives forever.

In Exodus it is written "Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well." "And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die. And Moses said, Thou hast spoken well, I will see thy face again no more."

I have been in the sinner creature churches, they are Pharoah's spies. "see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die."

Look "Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it."

Look "ye shall not be afraid of the face of man"
"see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die."

Who is the judge of the gentiles. Do you see "for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it."

Look who is God according to the Word of the LORD, "and the cause that is too hard for you"

Look "And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a God to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

Do you see "I have made thee a God to Pharaoh"

Look at the word from the mouth of Peter "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Look at John "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Do you see "the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" Who is flesh, Man. Who believes they are righteous because they belive in Jesus Christ. "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man."

"the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man."
"every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." Was not this the son of man. "the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

The sinner creatures are all children of Pharaoh.
"Certainly this was a righteous man." "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." Take up your cross in the kingdom you will inherit.

Do you see "behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn."

Look "Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses."

Where do the sinner creatures put up their treasure, "Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses."

"But why bother listening when you can spend all the time arguing about the soundbyte?"

Hey, small sound bites for small minds.

Trouble is, small minds have the right to vote. And they haven't been this well organized in decades, and haven't until recent times enjoyed so powerful a media machine to feed them their easily swallowed morsels of hate.

Stunted is the society that allows its tiniest minds to silence its greatest minds.

I mean, it's not that the stuff said in black churches can't be just as alarming to me, if more melodious, than what's said in a lot of *white* churches, that last I heard, it was the *GOP* demanding everyone put in government without question, but, if you're wondering why Democrats aren't all outraged at this Swiftboating, it's that a) We actually listen, and b) We've heard the same from Religious Right candidates who *won't* disagree with it for years.

You know? Every time Bush talks about Biblical authority and shakes hands with people who say I shouldn't be 'suffered to live,' it's been one less degree of pity I feel for those who want to believe Obama must be a 'reverse racist' toadie of this pastor despite a lifelong record and his own words of actually why and how he's otherwise.

We're *not* electing a religious follower, but Americans who are supposed to respect all of us *and* be *held to it.

And if you're just starting to feel uncomfortable with notions otherwise, white Evangelicals, you're a little late.

And, if that's not clear enough, Senator Obama, long attacked for not being pious *enough* has in *fact* actually repudiated those things about Rev. Wright's rantings people try to redefine him with.

GOP candidates who enjoy the support of the 'Left Behind' crowd skate on much thinner 'distancing.'

Obama didn't 'distance' himself from it.

He *talked* about it. And well.

But why bother listening when you can spend all the time arguing about the soundbyte?

" Greg:

The Church is a place of worship. But it is also a place where people learn about life, about faith, about morality, about the difference between good and evil, about the difference between right and wrong. The pastor also plays a role as teacher. Kids learn this in Sunday school."

But there is also the human capacity to demonstrate not being a mere passive receiver of everything they see... Something Sunday school people seem unable to grasp, even when, say Obama actually *addresses* the concerns, rather than denying them, in the way many GOP candidates who like to claim the support of white preachers who say the same kind of thing do... While trying to make their will policy.

Not all Sunday school teachers get that.

But some of their students do.

The forays of religion into political life have now come home to roost. Just wait until all those right wing Christian preachers end up on youtube.

Actions Speak Better than Words

Before the negative press regarding Mr. Wright, Mr Obama had on numerous occasions declared Mr. Wright as his mentor and spiritual teacher for the past 20 years and even went so far as to include Mr. Wright in his election staff, these are the actions of Mr. Obama. When the press found out about the Hitleresque personality of Mr. Wright, Mr. Obama’s staff writers immediately created a rebuttal of hyperbole that amazingly some people actually believed.

It is interesting to note, as soon the public became aware of the Obama/Wright connection, following a phone call to Mr. Wright from Mr. Obama, Mr. Wright was instantly silenced, retired and rewarded with a 1.6 million dollar home. Is there something more we are not supposed to hear from Mr. Wright?

And now Mr. Obama says he would distance himself from Mr. Wright because of Mr. Wight hateful message, but what about the other 20 years of Mr. Obama choosing to sit in the pew while Mr. Wright lectured? After 20 years of choosing to listen to Mr. Wright, Mr. Obama has just now come to conclusion that he wouldn’t listen to Mr. Wright starting now? Does Mr. Obama think we are stupid?

But regardless of what Mr. Obama’s staff has spun for Mr. Obama’s rebuttal, Mr. Obama cannot retract his clear public proclamation that Mr. Wright has been his mentor and spiritual teacher for over these past 20 YEARS. And that up to recent negative press, Mr. Wright was on Mr. Obama’s Spiritual Advisor Committee campaign team. There is no denying this.

And the Obama’s team efforts to downplay the violent rhetoric of Mr. Wright are like trying to make excuses for Hitler. Hitler and Mr. Wright both convey hateful and paranoid messages that should send shivers through the average American. The words of Mr. Wright are violent, hateful and terrifying. This should be a wake up call to every white, Jew, non-Christian, Christians of other faiths, government officials, peoples from other countries and so on. Didn’t Hitler do this too before unleashing his cruelty on the world?

If Obama made the choice to listen and learn from this so called spiritual mentor for over 20 years, do you expect me or any other rational being to believe that he wouldn’t be or want to be influenced by his ideas? And what does that say of Mr. Obama’s integrity?

Action is the real measure of a person, not their words. We know who Mr. Obama is by his life and choices, not the words he spins. And we can only imagine the amount of hatred Mr. Obama will unleash once he achieves ultimate power.

And also consider recent announcement that the chief of the firm involved in the State Department’s passport breach is one of Obama’s adviser. (And why is this not being discussed?) And that Obama has been caught lying about Rezko, regarding the amount of money Rezko gave him, and that Obama still hasn’t come clean about his Rezko land deal. Or further, how Michelle Obama makes a phenomenal $317.000 a month at a hospital in Chicago that is famous for turning away the poor, especially the black poor. And Michelle Obama’s separatist-racist connection to Farrakhan and Chicago's Trinity United Church trumpeting Barack Obama AKA Barack Hussein Obama as the second coming of the messiah. And Michelle Obama’s statement she “has never been proud to be an AMERICAN in her adult life".

And for those who don’t know that Obama campaign was originally funded by Islamic Extremist via the Food for Oil Program in Iraq, I suggest you read the following article:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/obamas_iraqi_oil_for_food_conn.html

If Obama were to become president, what would stop Mr. Obama from appointing Mr. Wright to his cabinet? And after Mr. Wright’s appointment, if anyone complained no doubt they would be called racist. And it seems as if this strategy - that it is racist to criticize a black man - is already in effect as Mr. Obama can do anything corrupt with minimal impunity by the public or the press.

But if Hillary so much as sneezes, she is taken through the laundry and hung out to dry and then beaten some more. Such an obvious bias treatment towards Mr. Obama because of his race is racial discrimination. And I believe another reason why Mrs. Clinton is unfairly criticized to such an extreme is because a handful of powerful men in the media can’t stand the idea of a woman for president – likely a libido thing.

We should have as our country’s leader someone with wisdom and knowledge, whose goal is the selfless betterment of the world. We should not elect someone with a personal agenda for personal power or select them because of the fashionably of their race or the preference for a gender.

With all the red lights in Mr. Obama’s resume, and all the hyperbole that he spins that keeps us from knowing the real Mr. Obama, are you sure this is the person best to lead our country? Should we gamble away the American future to a man who associates with and is taught by men who hate this country and its people?

The Church is a place of worship. But it is also a place where people learn about life, about faith, about morality, about the difference between good and evil, about the difference between right and wrong. The pastor also plays a role as teacher. Kids learn this in Sunday school.

Do you not think that some of the teachings of the pastor and the church would be absorbed by the congregation, especially over a 20 year span? Is it not important for voters to know what type of teaching a potential president was exposed to in order to know the type of person he is?

This is a transparent attempt by a left-wing cleric to appropriate the freedom of religion that is enshrined in our Constitution by implying that this well-founded liberty was meant to provide freedom from scrutiny by the public. Obama certainly should be able to attend the church of his choice - no one should attempt to impede him from this worship in any way. Nor should any religious test that is administered by the government bar him from the Presidency or any other public office. However, the fact that Obama is a liberal African-America who attends an "Afrocentric" church no more shields he or his church from scrutiny or embarrassment than they do a conservative white candidate whose weekly services include diatribes against the evils of race mixing, jews, gays, evolution, etc. Certainly Obama's Wright problem has produced an amusing spectacle, as liberals and leftists, once able to disparage the GOP as an organization composed of or beholden to the religious right, are now stuck with the task of defending a candidate whose appearance and demeanor suggests membership in the kind of bland, non-threatening mainline Protestant or Roman Catholic congregation that they are used to in their favored candidates for public office, but, whose actual adherence is to some of the very worst lunacy and hated that this nation's pulpits have to offer. As such, it is unsurprising that this particular defender has chosen to at once condemn attempts to report what Obama's ministers have to offer, while assuring that any inflammatory utterances that are reported are selective distortions that were taken out of context: "nothing to see here, folks...and, by the way, you're a bunch of bigots for even being concerned about this!"

Copyright law is being allowed to go WAY too far.

I can record any damm sound that I please, that is audible in my physical presence. Just watch me.

Don't want it recorded? Then don't vibrate the air.

Fortunately, modern digital technology has resulted in tiny, pocketable recorders that fit secretly inside a small pocket and can record hours of sound. Thankfully, this has made so-called prohibitions on recording pointless -- unless we want to search everyone who enters any doorway.

(Maybe I shouldn't have said that. The music recording industry might demand just that, and judging by how Congress kowtows to the RIAA, it might just happen.)

(Sorry for the off topic rant, but the current absurdity of copyright law pushes my buttons.)

ON TOPIC:

We'd have fewer spies recording sermons, if we didn't have so many CERTAIN religious political forces wanting to use the pulpit as a political machine.

Most pulpits enjoy tax exemption, and it is unlawful under IRS code for tax-exempt groups to act as electioneering machines.

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com/

While pulpits are certainly private and maybe even sacred, most churches do not have "Members Only" signs posted at their entrances and their ministers' sermons are not considered secret. Most ministers I have known desired that their sermons be seen, read, circulated as widely as possible. I have yet to hear one say at the end of a sermon "And don't tell anybody what I just said". Quite the opposite.

Secretly recording and circulating a minister's sermon without his knowledge and consent is impolite and, I suppose, might under certain conditions violate copyright protections or some such thing. However, it seems rather a stretch to claim that circulating remarks that a minister has made to his congregation infringes upon his freedom of speech or religion.

I think it is rather pointless to say, "What would Jesus do" on this one. He CERTAINLY would NEVER, EVER, ever make up fanatic lies and attempt to perpetuate hatred, seperateness and venom against anyone. Justice? Where is the justice against those J. Wright slanders when he makes his outrageous claims against white America and the U.S. government. Come on, now. Let's be intellectually honest, Wright is not a person in sync with Jesus's message of love thy neighbor and peace. He is stirring up emotions and attempting to encite his all black congregation. Does anyone think Jesus would have approved of an all black or all white or all anything congregation?

"A church is sacred space and to violate that space by engaging in “Swift-boat” type distortions and even spying is un-American"

But of course using it to push Obama's candidacy and speaking out on how whitey is trying to kill minorities with AIDS is OK. Same old liberal double standard drivel...

It is quite dangerous for the media to have taken a 30 second soundbyte from a 90 minute or 2 hour sermon and turned it into an anti-american race-bating whatever from a man who has devoted his life to helping people. 30 years of public service in a religious setting has been negated by 1 week of crucifiction by the media and most likely the clinton campaign.

It is also dangerous for pastors and ministers and missionaries to be scrutinized for every word they utter. it is irresponsible for the press to drag religious rhetoric into a secular setting.

During my ten-year stint in politics. I was asked to speak in a church one evening. The topic was how to effectively contact your legislator. They were promoting grass-roots activism.

A man with a camera said he wanted to film it and take the forum back to his church. Nothing I say or do is secret so I said it was fine with me.

Later a clip aired on you-tube that was cut to make it seem controversial. At the same time people from my opponents camp called the media to sell them the story of the you-tube video.

I got some calls about it but it never took off probably because the video had obviously been cut and pasted. I considered it a dirty trick that I wish wasn't so pervasive in politics.

Obama is not responsible for everything his pastor says. He is responsible, however, for what he writes in his own book. That is where my concern lies.

V. California, You said:
"It is quite clear to me that the people posting these emails do not have a clear understanding of what the Bible said or what it is trying to teach us as followers of Jesus Christ."

Who gives you the right to say such a thing and judge us??? I think YOU are the one who is being a hypocrite. Judge lest YE be judged!!!!

Rev. Brooks,

It is quite clear to me that the people posting these emails do not have a clear understanding of what the Bible said or what it is trying to teach us as followers of Jesus Christ. I think this is one of the main problem we having in the country. Whereas most Americans say they believe in God I wonder how many believe in Jesus Christ. Because the Bible clearly state that "you can not get to God unless you comes through Jesus Christ." The teaching of Jesus Christ is clear on how we must treat each other. The bible teaches us to love one another as we love God. How can we say we love God and not on fellow man or woman?

Before we judge Senator Obama for his decision to become a member of Trinty and remain a member, we must all look at ourselves and ask ourselves do we have family members, close friends, church pastors, church members or others in our life that has or have said some unforgiveable things in our present or that we heard about. How many of us denounce, disown or literally destroy that people character. I would quess not many. So why the double standard? Are you better than Senator Obama. Do you believe the saying "if it happen to me it okay but if it happens to someone else I must get on my high horse and condemn that people to hell and back?
In the eye of God are you moral outrage greater because you condemning others and not judging your self?

Each of us should remember that the only one that can judge mankind is God. The Bible clearly states "Judge not lest ye be judge." Remember you may think that you have the right to judge others in the name of God. You do not. You might judge man on earth but it is God who will judge man in Heaven and that include you.

I certainly see nothing wrong with examining the religious beliefs of a Presidential candidate, as they reflect the individual's broad value system.

I most certainly see something wrong with manipulating the presentation of a Church's doctrine for the purposes of assassinating the character of a political opponent.

The people that have misused Reverend Wright's words for this purpose know exactly what they are doing and they know that it is wrong and they don't care, because they are focused single-mindedly on achieving personal benefit. In fact, their plan appears to be backfiring. And that gives me hope in the ultimate goodness of the American people.

I don't know really what's in the heart of Senator Obama. I listened to the entirety of both of Reverend Wright's sermons that served as the basis of the televised extracts. I was moved by his passion and desire for justice. There was not a hint of hatred against Americans, Whites, or any sector of the American public. He was simply critical of the actions of the American government, as he sees it. He is entitled to those opinions, and as Pastor of TUCC, he was entitled to express them in his sermons.

I believe that the TUCC and their community were blessed by having this man lead them. If Senator Obama shares the same love for people of all races and desire for justice, then I think he is highly qualified to lead this country.

For those condemning Pastor Wright's "hate speech" - have you seen his sermons in their entirety? Or have you just seen the sound bites being shown endlessly on the news?

If Pastor Wright hated America so much, why would he have been honored by the Clinton Administration for his good works? Why would he have joined the Marines when he was a young man? In the "chickens coming home to roost" speech, he quotes a (white) Ambassador who said the same thing. In fact, Rev. Wright was across the river in Newark, NJ on 9/11. So yeah, he saw the whole thing, and was preaching from the perspective that we shouldn't lash out blindly at whoever did that evil deed. (At the time, nobody really knew)

Granted, he should have known better about repeating the urban legend about the Government creating AIDS, as should any educated person. But how many times have conservative Christian pastors said that "God will judge America" for allowing abortion/gay marriage/feminism/tax increases?

Go out and view the sermons in their entirety for yourselves. Of course, it's much easier and intellectually lazy to get your opinions from Fox News.

It is one thing to say that civil government will have no role in matters of religion and must not use tax revenues to support any religious persuasion; it is quite another to suggest the impossible—namely, that people can sink their religious convictions when they consider political questions and form political affinities. State and church can be kept separate; religion and politics cannot. Indeed, Jefferson’s own plank in the “wall of separation”—his “Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom” in the Virginia legislature—was based on his own confidence that “Almighty God hath ... manifested his supreme will;” his stated purpose for the bill was to forestall measures that would be “a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion.”
In the North Carolina ratifying convention, James Iredell, speaking in support of the “no religious test” clause of the Constitution, stated what was true then, and is still true today: “It is never to be supposed that the people of America will trust their dearest rights to persons who have no religion at all, or a religion materially different from their own.”

Believers like Ms Thistlethwaite and atheists like me will have to learn to live with that.

puleeeze!

let's stop the self-righteous religion-as-victim rant and focus on the facts:

first, obama's pastor was the one who violated the "sacred space" of his church by spewing hate-filled political vitriol that not only demonized this country but obama's opponent.

second, nobody "spied" on him. he, in the fullness of his arrogance, made his sermons available for anyone willing to pay him whatever he charged for these recorded diatribes.

third, nobody is seeking to stop this lunatic from saying whatever he wants to say from the pulpit. his right to free speech is intact. it is only his church's right to a federal tax break that is at issue here.

the only thing reprehensible about this sordid affair is that such bigoted and biased speech went unnoticed for so long under the guise of "religious guidance".

Is the Rev. Brooks REALLY suggeseting that white supremecy churches should not be looked at? Is she REALLY saying that if McCain's minister spewed hatred toward blacks and toward Africa repeatedly for over 20 years that that would not be a fair political issue? REALLY, Rev. Brooks??

She truly seems as confused and as conflicted as most of her fellow liberals.

Whatever standard we apply here, we must be willing to apply to preachers, religious leaders and politicians across the board. If Dr. Wright deserves a pass because he's speaking in a church seeting and because of the good he does as a church leader, then we have to be willing to give the same pass to ministers on the other side of the political spectrum. If we decide that Dr. Wright's more reprehensible statements aren't excused by this and deserve public disdain, then it's fair game to go after the Falwells of the world when they're out of line.

Personally, I'm fine either way, but my bias is against giving a free pass to either side. The core of Christianity speaks to issues of social justice and personal morality that are an affront to many of societies' standards - and will offend people on both the right and the left. Christians, for their faith to be alive and meaningful, have to be willing to take those stands - sometimes it's necessary to say "no, that's not right." But it's harmful to Christianity itself (leave alone any particular politician associated with a church) for Christian leaders to thoughtlessly spout off in hateful ways like political hacks giving a stump speach.

Is the Rev. Brooks REALLY suggeseting that white supremecy churches should not be looked at? Is she REALLY saying that if McCain's minister spewed hatred toward blacks and toward Africa repeatedly for over 20 years that that would not be a fair political issue? REALLY, Rev. Brooks??

She truly seems as confused and as conflicted as most of her fellow liberals.

Reverend,
saying "God damm America" is religion or is politics?
Who is mixing the two ? Very often are the Pastors.
If you have nothing to hide, let them take notes!
Actually, taking videos, discorage Pastors from preaching Sermons of hate.

There is so much outrage about Politics in Church. These same people are perhaps the same people that support more Church in Politics?

Obama is not running for God, but as president of the united states, so - is it too much to ask that his spiritual advisor not hate the united states and that the first lady have a half way positive attitude about this country which has been so good to both of them.

Jery Falwell had tapes of his sermons removed and destroyed. Why? Because they were racist and anti-Catholic. Liberals and moderates need to turn the table and record the Hagees of the world.

While I am an Obama supporter and bristle at the notion that a pastor's 30 years of service are combed for 5 minutes of inflamatory video... I MUST say that PREACHING HATE IS NEVER RIGHT.

By preaching hate and notions of victimization, the slave mentality takes hold.

One of Obama's greatest assets is the ability to challenge the underclass to do better and stop waiting for ANYONE else to help.

So I'm torn - Yes I support Obama - but preaching hate and intolerance, wild conspiracy theories (that may yet be accurate like the Regean era CIA that actually did allow cocain to be sold on the streets of LA... because it was part of their Iran-Contra operations) only serve to keep the population in status quoe. Fearing a boogie man. Waiting for a handout when bootstraps are in order.

It is why people like Andrew Young, Mr. Johnson of BET, and Al Sharpton don't like Obama.

The truth undermines the ability of the self-appointed civil rights leaders of the 1960's to hold sway over the people. When they are out achieving the American dream they don't have time to listen to Sharpton and Young telling them they can't do it without help.

Preachers of all faiths and colors need to stop politicing at the pulpit, and begin to talk about how to overcome life's difficulties with aplomb.

Spying on people during prayer is not reprehensible. Most people at prayer have nothing to hide. I would BET the FBI and other watchdog organizations have spies in white supremacy "churches" or organizations. Those people have their beliefs and they are filled with hate and seperatist leanings.
Any church that can not bear the scrutiny of what it preaches, in my opinion, probably has something to hide.
The church I attend has no hate speech or rants about the government. Why does the U.S. Government even need to be brought up in a house of worship? Isn't prayer supposed to be about spirituality and belief- not politics and ideology.
Get the facts straight and don't try to whitewash a "church" or ANY organization that spreads hate, lies and attempts to further itself by whipping up a frenzy about politics. If it is a political organization, it shouldn't get the tax credit for being a church.