It's the Religion, Stupid

I think religon is very important because its how you dress and your lifestyle, and it's what you eat.

I think religon is very important because its how you dress and your lifestyle, and it's what you eat.

Terra:

Is Felix's still in business? Many dozens of big juicy Gulf oysters have slipped doen my throat at that place, but I haven't been there in 10 years.

Yes,

Lepi is not far from me, in fact i met her tonight. A nice lady.

New Orleans is still there...a little bent, a little low, but like an old belle...still showing good bones under the age, and not giving up without a fight.

Landry's still has the best banana foster, the General Store is still makeing Muffalatos...the music is returning and "Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulez".

terra

Terra,

Thanks, dear lady. If I am ever in Louisiana, I will bring mead for sure. Doesn't Lep live down there? Two good reasons to visit. I would also dearly love to see New Orleans again, or what's left of it.

And if you turn me into a newt.... well, I'll get better! (love that movie!)

Arminius

Arminius,

You wrote:

'Apparently we are all supposed to be politically correct here.

'Perhaps I should have said, "Never try to teach calculus to a cow. It only wastes your time and annoys the cow."

'Or, better, to dispense with the analogy: "Never try to teach a fundamentalist to use reason. It only wastes your time and annoys the fundamentalist."

Also:

"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her read."

He was calling no one a pig or a cow...and if he called me a pig or a cow, I'd turn him into a toad or at the very least a newt. ; ) Maybe you need to know when someone is calling you a name, or quoteing an old saying.

Arminius has been a friend to the Pagans on this forum, watching our back and standing up for us, even though he happens to be Christian. He is also an honerable man, and that is important to me...he is also fun. There are many on this forum just like him. Special.

Arminius, it would be a pleasure to have a cup of coffee with you...with maybe a side of meade. If you are ever in Louisiana, the coffee pot is on..bring the meade.

terra

Terra Gazelle,

"Arminius, is polite, balanced, literate and worthy...and a friend to many on this forum."

Perhaps you have good history with this guy. I hope so.

But calling people "pigs" and "cows" and then accusing THEM of being unreasonable is not "balanced, polite, literate or worthy..."

How would you like it if he called YOU a pig or a cow? Think about it.

"I suggest you change your attitude."

Ignominious is the one needs an attitude adjustment.

As ta me, I jes calls em like I sees em.

Thomas, Thomas, Thomas,

Hmmm, if you meet an "pretty wingie thingie" maybe you can start your own religion akin to Moroni's buddy "Mormon-con" and Gabe's buddy "Mo the Crazy Arab".

John Stephens,

Oh, goodness gracious, I'll never give you beer advice again! (LOL!)

Actually, thanks for the laugh. Let 'em talk, I'll laugh all the harder!

Arminius

Terra and Arminius are going to have to stop meeting like this. People are starting to talk.

Hi, Terra,

Many thanks and a big hug. I'll buy you the drink of your choice (or three) should I ever have the good fortune to meet you in person.

Arminius

Antimatter,

Arminius, is polite, balanced, literate and worthy...and a friend to many on this forum.

I suggest you change your attitude.

Love you Arminius...

hugs,
terra

Jesus never ever taught about establishing a theocracy, in fact He taught about not establishing one.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

John S, you write
"Okay, back to the subject at hand, the question of the week. Enough of the infantile banter."

John, the men don't know what the little girls understand:
it's not just WHAt you say, it's HOW you say it.

So the Arm/Anti/Henry colloguy helped further the discussion.

And thanks for your reasonable disquistion on theocracy.

love you
Henry

Okay, back to the subject at hand, the question of the week. Enough of the infantile banter.

The Catholic Church has demonstrated beyond dispute the dangers of theocracy. Jews, Muslims, and Christians were slaughtered as heretics by the Mother of Harlots. So has the Taliban, which killed its own children, Muslims. So, I think reasonable Christians are in agreement with so-called secularists that the Constitution should not be amended in any way, shape, or form that would favor one religion or any religion, or religion itself.

As a Christian, I fear theocracy as much as anyone who isn't Christian. I forgot to get beer for the Superbowl, and, thanks to benighted ersatz Christians I couldn't purchase any on Sunday. Jesus drank wine on high holy days -- so what's up with these stupid blue laws? I deeply resent religionists interfering with my life, even on the most trivial matter.

I can think of no higher calling than to be called by God to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I would love to do so, but he never annointed me.

If Huckleberry Bee, a Baptist minister, was indeed called by God to preach, why is he abandoning the call of God for a secular post? If he was not called by God to preach, why did he presume to do so? I am very suspicious of politicians offering religious bona fides.

ARMINIUS:

Have you tried teaching a pig to fly? They do pretty good on the initial fling.

Thanks, Henry!

Antimatter

I have known and interacted with Arminius for many moons here on this site

and have always found him to be a generous, lovely, and most intelligent conversant.

There must be some inadvertant misunderstanding here.

Start over again on a new tack, is my advice.

Love to you, Arminius

Henry the Pagan Buddhist Jewish Atheist

Ignominious:

"Perhaps I should have said, "Never try to teach calculus to a cow. It only wastes your time and annoys the cow.""

Your manners are disgusting. Ego engorgement is your clear goal. Grow up.

Antimatter:

Apparently we are all supposed to be politically correct here.

Perhaps I should have said, "Never try to teach calculus to a cow. It only wastes your time and annoys the cow."

Or, better, to dispense with the analogy: "Never try to teach a fundamentalist to use reason. It only wastes your time and annoys the fundamentalist."

My initial post was a quotation from Lazarus Long, Robert Heinlein's famous science fiction character. I should have identified it. And I do admit that I should have left off the final sentence about not calling Angela a pig - that came across very badly.

Arminius

TO CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED:

You wrote, " Well at least you quoted, as per most contemporary NT exegetes, historic Jesus material."

No, you quote, I write.

I have met God the Trinity and I have met satan, it doesn't matter if you or anyone else believes me or not, my job is to speak, somehow or another.

God is Love, Pure Love.

God has a Plan and He has had His Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition in due time, as in God's Time.

Like I have said before, it doesn't matter what label someone puts on themselves or what label people put on others, God looks at the person and also God is the One Who chooses Who He chooses and I have said Yes and somehow God will see me thru.

Take care, be ready, see you [as in all of humanity] in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TO ARMINIUS:

Thank you for the post, one day people will find out that God is not only a lot nicer and forgiving and merciful, to put it mildly, then some think but also than a lot of them want Him to be.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Ignominious:

""Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and irritates the pig." And, Angela, I am making an analogy, and not calling you a name."

You are sanctimonious, superior and supercilious. All together now... Follow the bouncing ball...

Just making an analogy, now, not calling you a pig, you understand...

Pathetic.

don't mention Canyon- he might show up again. ;)

Daniel,

Thanks for the response. Sometimes I come off as more of a moderator and less as a contributor. Its in my nature ;)

As for Angela, I don't have a problem with her posting her opinions no matter if I agree or disagree. I also don't have a problem with one of our anti-theists posting his/her opinion. That is free speech. If I don't like it, I can argue on the content or just ignore it.

And that Terra was essentially my point. DW that would grossly wrong.

Thomas, Moses, "god seer and speaker", Baum,

What, no "god to Tom" revelations today? Well at least you quoted, as per most contemporary NT exegetes, historic Jesus material.

Thomas Baum:

You and I are not always on the same wavelength, but we are here. Thank you for speaking of Jesus in words that are fitting. Especially when you wrote, "Jesus did not say to cram down other people's throats your view of right and wrong but to live it." Absolutely right!

Any 'Christian' who spews hatred, usually using selected parts of the Old Testament, is no true Christian.

God bless,

Arminius

Hi, Daniel ITLD,

Oh, yes, I remember Canyon. He is scary - anybody that wants to nuke Mecca outright is not stable. I have not seen any post by him lately either, and it is pretty certain that he is not coming on line with a different name because he would be instantly recognized. I have no idea why he went, but I hope he stays gone.

Arminius

TO PEOPLE CALLING THEMSELVES "CHRISTIANS":

Jesus taught LOVE, not tolerance but LOVE, and some not all but some that call themselves 'christian' are doing nothing but spewing out hatred, pure hatred.

Someone, on a post, said if you feel it is a sin for you then don't do it, sounds appropriate to me, doesn't it to you?

Jesus did not say to cram down other people's throats your view of right and wrong but to live it.

Jesus spoke highly of the "Good Samaritan" and the Samaritans of Jesus's day were despised by the 'religious' of His day.

Jesus pointed out that the "Who is my neighbor" is the one that helps out when needed not the one that believes in Him and does nothing but condemn all others.

What Jesus actually taught has been so twisted by some so-called 'christians' as to be not even recognizable.

Jesus, Himself taught seperation of church and state: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's" also "My Kingdom is not of this world".

God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and it is important what you do and why you do it.

Take care, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Arminius

Last night, when you quickly responded to my comments, I felt like we were chatting. But then when I posted my next comment, it never appeared. I agree with an observation that someone made here, once, that night time postings seem to fail alot. I know it wasn't censored, because it was pretty bland.

But I am still a little curious. So this is what I said:

Remember that guy, Canyon Shearer? Do you notice that he is gone? A few weeks ago, when he was having one of his worst rants, and I could imagine him foaming at the mouth, he actually included his email address and phone number in his comment, and wanted to talk on the phone with me all night. I did not contact him, because I am a little scared of him. But don't you think someone else might have? Maybe alot of people? Maybe even someone from the Washington Post?

Anyway, I just note, that after that, I haven't seen anymore of him and I think it has been at least a month.

Very curious.

Dear Ghostbuster

I am not bad at you.

Angela is a heckler.

There really is alot of dissension and bad feeling among religious people and between the various competing religious groups; Christian hostility to atheists is tame compared to hostility that Christians hold towards each other. Iguess there is nothing I can do about that.

I do not think that I can control my hostility, so I do not apologize for that. But I agree, that it is better not to post too quickly, when I am actually mad, because if I thought about it even for a couple of minutes, I would probably just hit "delete."

Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite,

You noted:

Matthew 6:1a: “Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them.” Jesus said that’s hypocrisy.

This is a single entry (attestation) in the NT and apparently was added late to Matthew's gospel, the Third Stratum, 80-120 CE i.e. ~ 50 years after the crucifixion. Because of this Professor Crossan, an On-Faith panelist, and many other NT exegetes, have concluded that Matt 6:1a was not uttered by the historic Jesus but was a later addition to embellish the life of Jesus. As with most sayings of this type, it was probably borrowed from the works of the ancients to include the "sayings" of the biographers of Buddha or the scribes of the OT.

The correct comment then would be: "Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them.” The Ancients said that was hypocrisy.

Ghostbuster,

Daniel ITLD is almost always polite. He got wound up over Angela's dictatorial posts, and admitted it. We all do that from time to time.

Arminius

Daniel,

Don't worry, not everyone reading this blog will assume Angela is speaking for God as the sole representative of Christianity. Her posts don't exhibit any grace.

Same as yours.

You both can both do better.

The question is, will you make an attempt, or will you get mad at me for pointing out the obvious...

Your call.

Secularism is Good for Your (society's) Health
Relgious Belief is Dangerous

In a widely quoted study published in the Journal of Religion and Socieity, Gregory Paul summarized the data on Relgion and Social Health this way

""In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health." (you can find the whole article on Google).

It may well be that
Reducing the Level of Religious Belief/Incresing the Level of Secularism
will be vital to the survival of the United States as we know it,
rather than the reverse proposition that people like Jerry Falwell and Mitt Romney have promulgated over the past 25 years.

February 8, 2008 12:45 PM |

SCHMOOZEALERT:

You noted:

"Hallucinations didnt occur until Timothy Leary introduced them. By the way who was there when Jesus lived and saw that he was illeterate?"

illeterate?????????

Some added information:

See Professor Bruce Chilton's commentary in his book, Rabbi Jesus, An Intimate Biography, pp 99-101- An excerpt:

"What Luke misses is that Jesus stood in the synagogue as an illiterate mamzer in his claim to be the Lord's anointed".

See also Father Raymond Brown's 878 page book, An Introduction to the New Testament, (Luke 4:16 note on p. 237).

And see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus'life to include his illiteracy.

Harald,
What Gaby said...

terra

AMviennaVA,

Could you please find the quote that states that any religion is part of the Constitution? You can go into history...find anyone that made the statement that it was.

Gaby, I think Phoenix will be a beautiful horse. Right now she has a winter coat and when you rub her down, she is all sharp bones. It really is sad. I do not know how any one can treat any creature so badly. Our other two horses are doing beautifully. The Mama was jutting hip bones, ribs and you could see every vertibra in her spine...it was raised up like a knife. But she is wonderful and full of spunk now. She just got a good report from the vet...

Mystic is Mama Love's filly, she is full of herself. They are dark bay's with the black mane, tails and legs...nice looking.Big beautiful eyes...

Arminius and Daniel,
Listen guys, I have wanted to crawl under a rock with some things I have heard Pagans say...dumb as a box of hair...blameing all Christians for the actions of a few. You and other Christians are true to your founder...don't feel bad about those like Angela...there are always those hairballs.

Yep, the stump didn't have a chance.

Garyd,
A few months ago there was a Gay Pride parade in Jeruselum (sp)...a big one. And no one got stoned.

terra

Now we'll NEVER make it to White Castle!

Harold,

This is a discussion board, not a church. Take your overly lengthy bible quotes elsewhere.

"quotes from the fictional OT don't impress anyone" how about the NT

And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Do you see “And when the sabbath was past” “the morning the first day of the week” This is the Sabbath of the gentiles, Sunday.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Do you see “Lucifer, son of the morning” “And when the sabbath was past” “the morning the first day of the week” This is the Sabbath of the gentiles, Sunday.

And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No. Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. And, behold, as Barak pursued Sisera, Jael came out to meet him, and said unto him, Come, and I will shew thee the man whom thou seekest. And when he came into her tent, behold, Sisera lay dead, and the nail was in his temples. So God subdued on that day Jabin the king of Canaan before the children of Israel. And the hand of the children of Israel prospered, and prevailed against Jabin the king of Canaan, until they had destroyed Jabin king of Canaan.

Do you see “Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty” Look “she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink” do you see “smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep” Look “Jael came out to meet him, and said unto him, Come, and I will shew thee the man whom thou seekest.” “And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.” “Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen” “behold, Sisera lay dead, and the nail was in his temples” Did not Paul feed you with milk, “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat” “ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.” The believers of the new testament were fed twice with milk. “smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep” Solomon said , “The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.” Look “which are given from one shepherd” who is the bishop and shepherd of the faith of the heathen sinner creatures. The cross with two nails in the temple. Sisera was the captain of Jabin's army. Caesarea It was built by Herod the Great (B.C. 10), who named it after Caesar Augustus, hence called Caesarea Sebaste. It was the great Gentile city of Palestine. Here Cornelius the centurion was converted through the instrumentality of Peter and thus for the first time the door of faith was opened to the Gentiles. It still retains its ancient name Kaiseriyeh, but is now desolate. "The present inhabitants of the ruins are snakes, scorpions, lizards, wild boars, and jackals." It is described as the most desolate city of all Palestine. Do you see “the door of faith was opened to the Gentiles” “And David prepared iron in abundance for the nails for the doors of the gates, and for the joinings; and brass in abundance without weight;” Caesarea= Sisera Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Sisera was the captain of Jabin's army.

Here we go with CTCNL's reruns......again.

>>Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Probably? Cant say definitely?

>> Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations,

Hallucinations didnt occur until Timothy Leary introduced them. By the way who was there when Jesus lived and saw that he was illeterate?

Lots of probably's, theories and postulations. No difinitive proof, though. So, overall, I have to give your presentation the stamp of schmooze.

(Gotta give you credit, though, on Catholics and the trinity. Not backed up anywhere in scripture (except for the words added in King James transaltion that attempt to show it as an after-the-fact...words dont appear in the Greek). But then, all of that is man's problem..not God's)

Keep on scmoozin'!

Harold, the bible thumper,

Genesis 1:29 etc.= quotes from the fictional OT don't impress anyone.

Truth and Reality:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

>>Garyd:
>>Actually the Bible orders the Stoning only of Homosexuals with in Israel. That is Jewish homosexuals and apparently only by other Jews.

GaryD,

Incorrect. There were 12 tribes of Israel. The modern Jews are basically the descendents of the tribe of Judah (some perhaps from Benjamin and Levi)..

As far as the other nine tribes, it is a fascinating study to see where they ended up. (such as the tribe of Dan...whose descendents known as the Danites found themselves in NW Europe eventually...the Danish)

Angela,

The points you bring out are, sadly, ignored by most.

In this age where most secularists and atheists see that the 'enlightenment' of our times comes from freethinkers with no clue of their full potential of purpose on thie earth, the same espousing 'freedoms' such as embracing homosexuality in a society are additionally clueless how even that alone brings down a society eventually.

With all the decadence of the things we see in 'entertainment', decline of marriage and the family, the ability to blow ourselves up 100s of times over - and countless other sad commentaries of man's 'wisdom'...the 'enligtenment' of man has truly failed us...but we know that it will be corrected.

Best regards

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/nicholas_t_wright/2008/02/what_will_replace_secularism/all_comments.html

Actually the Bible orders the Stoning only of Homosexuals with in Israel. That is Jewish homosexuals and apparently only by other Jews.

Christians are only supposed to kick them out of the Church.

Quoting "As Truth and Reality replace the religious mumbo jumbo"

Look
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

This is the word of God, "Behold" "I have given you every herb bearing seed" "in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed"

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This is the Word of the LORD "the Lord commanded" "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it"

The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of man.
Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

Do you see "The Lord" "his eyes behold" "these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world" "Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked" This is the word of God, "Behold" "I have given you every herb bearing seed" "in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed" This is the Word of the LORD "the Lord commanded" "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it"

This is what the ungodly recieve from God, "I have given you every herb bearing seed"

The orginal sin, "the Lord commanded" God said, "I have given you every herb bearing seed"
A man is known by his fruit, Solomon said "She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." "Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded." "A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit."

Do you see "She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her" "he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded." "A wholesome tongue is a tree of life"

David said " Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue." "Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord of truth."

Do you see "The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue." "Into thine hand I commit my spirit"

This the judgment of Solomon, "he that winneth souls is wise" "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life" "A wholesome tongue is a tree of life"

Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.

Do you see "plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance" "in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established." "Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you" “in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.”“she dwelt under the palm tree” do you see “The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree”

Now you know truth and reality.

David wrote "That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me" "save with thy right hand" that is the Hand of the LORD

Paul wrote "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" Do you see "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" This is the word of their god, Esau, "And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother" "Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth" "Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked"

And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept. And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above; And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.

That woman is a fright.

sigh...

Daniel ITLD,

Yup, we all have those bad days. I have had to apologize the day after making comments on these blogs when wound up.

Amazing, is it not, that members of our own faith can be so much more offensive than the most strident non-believer? Most of the latter group here are admirably reasonable.

Arminius

Arminius

Sometimes, a person just has a bad day. It is hard to put up with all the Angela's of the world.

Daniel ITLD,

Wow, are you ever on a roll! I am just offended as you are by Angela, but would strongly advise you to give it up. As the saying goes, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and irritates the pig." And, Angela, I am making an analogy, and not calling you a name.

It is a great wonder to me that some so-called Christians think that they speak for all Christians. My own group, Episcopalians, is painfully aware that they do not, and have new scars to show for it. I can only call this urge to speak for all to be outrageous hubris.

With respect,

Arminius

For the HYPOCRITE Angela

I asked you to stop speaking for God and stop telling us what God thinks.

In your reply, you said that I should stop speaking for God.

I have posted here many many times. I have never presumed, like yourself, to speak for God. If anyone who has ever read my comments can point out an example, please show me.

Next, I suppose, you will want us to bow down to you Goddess Angela, and pray to you, and seek YOUR forgiveness. This seems to be where you are headed.

Does this hurt your feelings? How else would you have me respond? YOu speak so persistently and consitently for God, as though you think you are God. Well, is that what you think?

And I will make my request agains: please stop giving your own personal opinions as the opinions of all Christians. They are not. Christianity already has enough dirt and mud all over it without you adding to it, even more.

Wow, the Obfuscating Jihadist is in rare form today but again still does not grasp the flaws of Islam and other religions that are quickly driving the "pew sitters" and "bowers" to secularism. And knowing what the Jihadist and her other 900 million Sunnis have been brainwashed with, it won't take long to secularize the whole bunch.

To wit:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies and teach their children that such fictional things really exist.

2. Believe that the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran.

3. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

AMviennaVA:

I'm glad we can agree to disagree in a civilized manner. That is what these blogs should be about.

Many of the founding fathers were indeed devout Christians. Some were not. This latter group includes Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, and John Adams, and they were among the prime movers. Yes, many Christian ideals inspired the writers of our Constitution, but those ideas were not enshrined therein. And many of the secular ideals of the enlightment also inspired them.

Arminius

Arminius: Apology cheerfully accepted.

I re-read what I posted. Although I responding to a specific comment, I should have clarified that Christian principles are basic to the Constitution, as attested by the authors.

Exactly how does it show a lack of respect for Democracy? Maybe a lack of respect for the voting public especially that portion of it that is religious..

Democracy is after all majority rule and if the majority are religious then at least a pretense at similar religious views would in fact show a healthyrespect for Democracy or at least demographics.

AMviennaVA:

You very plainly said: "Christianity IS enshrined in the Constitution". That is not so, by any stretch. Please explain what you mean.

I meant no sarcasm. Sorry about that.

Arminius

Arminius @February 7, 2008 7:04 PM: 'Jihadist' put it correctly. The Constitution says what it says. Your quote from Jefferson is not in the Constitution. I hope that you can tell the difference.

Next time, please leave your attempts at sarcasm outside the discourse, and do present and maintain a civil tone. We can all be sarcastic, but there will be no productive result.

Hi, Jihadist,

You might be correct about AMVienna. If so, I hope he will explain himself a bit clearer. But he definitely said that "Christianity IS enshrined in the Constitution". That is NOT true.

Arminius

Hello Arminius,

I believe AMVienna is talking about the "establishment clause" if I understand your US Constitution correctly.

AMVienna is also correct is saying in reality, there is no such thing as 'separation of church and state' in public affairs and state policies.

Even in the perceived more "secular" Europe, European states and governments do not shy from not "seperating" themselves on religion, enacting laws relating to personal expressions of faith, and funding some events, buildings, programmes and activities related to religion.

Amviennava:

How wrong you are. Here is something about the separation of church and state, concerning one Thomas Jefferson. Remember him? Principal author of the Declaration of Independence, and the 3rd President of our country?

Here it is, read and learn the history you should have already known:

"The wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world" was first used by Baptist theologian Roger Williams, the founder of the colony of Rhode Island.[6][7] It was later used by Thomas Jefferson as a description of the First Amendment and its restriction on the legislative branch of the federal government, in an 1802 letter[8] to the Danbury Baptists (a religious minority concerned about the dominant position of the Congregationalist church in Connecticut), assuring that their rights as a religious minority would be protected from federal interference. As he stated:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

A. Thorn @February 7, 2008 4:14 PM wrote: "I believe that life begins when it is capable of supporting itself, or at the very least when the being becomes relatively self-aware."

I believe that I understand what you MEANT to say, and may actually agree. However, based on what you WROTE, infants are not safe, and that is murder. Given a choice, it is better to have an absolute prohibition.

Angela,
I was astounded when you said that Terra was "name calling." Clearly, you don't know what that means, for she certainly never did.

Here's an example, so you'll know in future:

Angela, you are a flaming idiot.

Terra Gazelle @February 7, 2008 2:59 PM wrote: 'Your faith is not enshrined in our Constitution. Period..and those of you stateing this is a "Christian" country can say it all you want...does not make it so.'

Actually, if you believe those who wrote it, Christianity IS enshrined in the Constitution, and the Constitution IS based on Christian principles. Saying otherwise, does not make it so.

Also, there is no such thing as 'separation of church and state'. There very simply, and correctly, is a prohibition from establishing a state religion. Quite a different thing.

As Truth and Reality replace the religious mumbo jumbo of the last 6000 years, religions will converge into something like the Bill of Rights. The "pew sitters" and "bowers" of old are on the march to said secularism as they "deflaw" the founders and foundations of religions and find nothing of godly and "angelic" substance remains.

Terra,

Stubborn is not a bad trait. But Angela is a lost cause! Just look what she said to Daniel ITLD. She is so deluded she can't se the forest for the trees.

Congratulation on your new little filly. Ah, maybe I should say congratualtions, Phoenix, to your new, loving home. I am sure she will be a strong little, happy horse within no time.

Terra, well met!

I'd offer to help, but that stump's a goner, you don't need help!

Great post on Patrick McCollum. Always reassuring to know that there are some good thing happening.

Arminius

Daniel ITLD,

Hello, friend! Good post in answer to Angela. It was as forceful as I have ever seen you be. That benighted person should remember what 'Christian' really means - it is NOT Leviticus, it is the Gospels. I wonder if she has ever really read them, so obsessed with sin and OT laws as she is. Our Lord taught us to get our butts out there and help our fellow humans, live by example instead of telling them not what to do, and not sit and stew on visions of heaven or hell.

As you do to others, so you do to me.....

Arminius

As a Wiccan, the idea of theocracy from any position scares me. I value spiritual and philosophical diversity and I see that as an important part of my faith and my life.

To be as pompous to assume that one's ideals, religious or otherwise are right for everyone is to do a disservice to the human race.

Terra,

Knowing you, I am sure that stump deserved it.

Daniel in the Lion's Den:

By their fruit you shall know them and therefore; I believe you know what I'm saying. There's nothing blasphemous that I've said. Therefore, you are the one who should stop speaking for Christians. You can't serve God and Mammon (mammon interpreted: other Gods, other desires; which for you is being approved by man not be God) on these secular website. Be oa workman of God and stop wanting others to approve of you. You are ashamed of the gospel "The Entire Gospel".

Gaby,
You are so right. Ok I have a tired arm from beating that dead horse.

oh talking about horses..ok I brought it up..I have a new baby horse..she is so cute. She is a rescue foal...a little filly that is mainly hide drapped bones...she is tiny at 5 1/2 months she looks almost the size of a new born. A little red gold sorrel we are calling Phoenix. She is our third rescue horse.

Gaby, I am stubborn, my hubby says to a fault. He says I would argue a stump down to toothpicks. ;p

terra

Angela,
Now you find where I said you were wrong in your beliefs.

To quote my statement..."I am trying to be patient, and understand your view.
But you are wrong. Not in your view, for it is as you see things...but in thinking that your religious belief should have any relationship in my life. It doesn't."

What I said I mean...you have every right to hold what views you wish, Gods, that is your right. But you do not have the right to push them on me..that is my right.

You want all the rights on your side..and why? because you are that special person a "Christian". That is not what our founders created in this new land. They saw the blood and smoke that polluted Europe because of religion...they did not want it here.

You want to force your ways on us...we do not want it...so what will you do? What will you do if Gay marriages are allowed? How will you enforce your God's will according to your opinion? What your forfathers did? Burn us, hang us...stone us? So when will you and the Taliban join hands? I am legally able to marry folks..and if this state allowed it, I would be happy to join people that love each other.

And as far as what the bible says...Quote where it says Women should not lie down with women. Oh it says man lieing with man as with women are an abomination, but so is eating shellfish....you like shrimp?

Angela, I don't give a fig what you believe.. it does me no injury for you to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.(plagerized from T. Jefferson)

You will never get it...we don't care what you believe. We really don't. I have beloved family and friends that are Christians...I respect them and they respect me. We are fine.

Angela, please understand, I am not calling you names, I am trying to get through to you that we do not care what you believe. I don't care if you are Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or a religion of One or none. I do not care...what I care about is you trying to push your religion and beliefs on others. Can you not worship as you see fit, perpetuating your biases as you will, while leaving the rest of us alone?
That is all we ask.

terra

A. Thorn and Terra,

Why do you even debate with Angela?

I have long given up on her. She talks about being respectful to others, yet she doesn't even know the meaning of the word.

She is only "respectful" to those wo think like her. All other views are disregarded and even attacked. She threatens: "I tell you this: we as you call it the right wing will never allow gay marriages to take place; we will fight it all the way; it will never go through across these United States."

Then she goes on to say:"And yes I am an American Citizen but first and foremost, I am a follower of Christ; not one before the other...." What that really means is "I will not rest until the rest of you think as I do!"

Respectful? HAH, my royal behind!

Hi Angela, doesn't the Bible say that gay people should be executed?

Do you think we should kill gay people?

Dear Angela

Pleasd DO stop speaking for Christians and for God, and speak for yourself. Your thoughts do not represent my thoughts.

You are rude and surly, with a chip on your shoulder. The are the EXACT opposite of what I have always believed a Christian should be.

You do not read the whole Bible, but you pick only the tiniest parts that you agree with, and then rip out the pages you do not like and throw them in the trash.

You are not judging people by Christian standards but by your own personal standards of bigotry and ignorance, and by the standards of your limited and primitive political views.

Most of all, you speak for God, as though you know God's thoughts, when you do not; I repeat, "Angela does not know God's thoughts and therefore cannot speak for God."

Please stop doing that, as such a practice is the ultimate blasphemy!

Angela:

A few comments on what you've said;

"First, Gay Marriage is unbiblical and of course, you say we don't believe in God or the bible. Well, God says it over and over that it's an abomination. Man should not lay with man and woman should not lay with woman."

Well, in many of those cases, homosexuality being an abomination is in the same chapter where it says that we should stone an unruly child to death, or put someone to death because they planted two different crops side by side, or wore a shirt made of two different threads. So, why do you take one thing from this chapter of the Bible (mainly Leviticus), but not others? Why is being gay still an abomination, but planting two crops side by side isn't a cause of death?

"Also, abortion: bible-believing Christians believe that we are not to murder and we believe at conception, this begins life."

That is your belief. It is not shared by all. I believe that life begins when it is capable of supporting itself, or at the very least when the being becomes relatively self-aware. A blastocyst is not self aware, and might even abort itself in a miscarriage later on. So no, I don't regard that as life. Now, later term abortions, I do not agree with, I'll grant you that.

However, I do not like abortions. I'm not for them personally, and hope to never get involved in a situation where that might be an option. But, seeing as how I will never personally be the one getting an abortion, I realize that there are situations where an abortion should be legal, even if abortion is outlawed (something I don't believe in. 1) In the cases of rape or incest, 2) In the case where it becomes a medical choice between the life of the embryo/fetus and the life of the mother, and 3) In the case where the child will be born with such severe disability that it will be in pain from the day it's born to the not-far-off day that it dies 4) In the case that we know people are going to get abortions if they're legal or not, and are doing harm to many because they will seek out illegal and dangerous means to perform something that is relatively safe for the mother today. I have yet to see an abortion bill presented that didn't include provisions for these cases. Why? Because the far-right wing doesn't want these provisions in there, because it's a wedge issue.

"We have no right to murder. How would you feel if someone gave birth to a baby and then decided to murder it."

I'd feel pretty bad. But, again, even the Bible, after giving a commandment not to murder, outlines very specifically times when it is okay to kill people. Many of these cases are just absolutely stupid by today's standards. So, what makes those instances any better or worse than the case of abortion? Aside from the fact that abortion isn't specifically outlawed in the Bible other than to say it is murder, what facts do you have on your side that does say that life begins at conception, and therefore makes this murder?

"Also, I've read, watched and known women who were traumatized by the experience of abortion years later; some who became suicidal or turned to medicating themselves (either with prescription drugs, or illegal drugs) or some just became very promiscious because they felt unclean or some show their guilt in different ways in their lives."

Now here you have a point. However, I don't think that me and you are going to get the same outcome out of the data. You say that making abortion illegal would solve this problem. I say that having long-term therapy as a mandatory part of an abortion procedure would be better.

"Lastly, I am firm in my beliefs and call it bigotry, I stand on the truth of God's law. Plain and simple..."

First off, prove that God's law is God's law. And that it is plain and simple.

Secondly, you say that you don't want to be called a bigot, but yet, you would apportion a fairly significant proportion of American people to second-class status by not allowing them to have even a civil marriage. How can you say that isn't bigoted? When slavery was going on, many people fought for a law that prevented African American slaves from getting married. I bet that you'd have a problem with that law today. What makes a ban on gay marriage so different? Especially in the effect, if not the religious backing behind it?

NEWS RELEASE

Cherry Hill Seminary Director of Chaplaincy and Lady Liberty League National Coordinator of Prison Ministries Testifies Friday In Washington
On Religious Discrimination In Prisons

BETHEL, VT—The Rev. M. Patrick McCollum will be part of a six-member
panel of experts presenting to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights on
Friday, February 8, 2008, on Religious Discrimination and Prisoners'
Rights. The panel is being convened to shed light on the nature and
extent of the problems which have arisen in this context and to discuss
what can be done to resolve inmate grievances in United States prisons.

After a period of public comment, a report by the Commission will be made available to Congress.
McCollum has a long and successful history of ministering to those unable to practice their faith in institutional settings. He is the Director and Chair of the National Correctional Chaplaincy Directors Association, and is the statewide Wiccan chaplain for the California Department of Corrections, has served as a Wiccan chaplain in the Federal Bureau of Prisons, has helped mentor chaplains from many faith traditions across the country, and has advised state and federal correctional institution
officials on religion issues across the nation.

McCollum has taught Pagan Chaplaincy Training at the Leadership Institute, part of Circle Sanctuary’s annual Pagan Spirit Gathering,
for the past seven years. His involvement with Circle Sanctuary’s outreach goes back nearly thirty years. As the National Coordinator of
the Lady Liberty League Prison Ministries Program, and a member of the
National Advisory Council of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, McCollum was closely involved with efforts by those groups which resulted in a policy change within the U.S. Department of Veteran’s Affairs to include the pentacle symbol on the list of approved symbols permitted to be inscribed on the headstones and
markers of fallen soldiers.

As the newly appointed Director of the Chaplaincy Program of Cherry Hill
Seminary, McCollum specializes in courses which address issues encountered by chaplains ministering in institutional settings, such as
prisons. Cherry Hill Seminary provides distance-learning graduate-level higher education for Pagan ministry.
“It is an honor to be invited to participate in the dialogue and to share a Wiccan’s point of view,” said McCollum in a recent interview. “Those in minority faiths are seldom the opportunity to be heard, even when the
issue concerns their rights. I am hopeful that this invitation is indicative of what we can expect going forward; that there is truly a
desire on the part of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights to ensure that inmates receive equal treatment, and a willingness to better serve
minority religions.”

Patrick McCollum is also the Priest of a California based Wiccan Church; Our Lady of the Wells. He will be sworn in with another first...he will swear Under the Goddess.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am an Elder to Our Lady of the Wells Wiccan Church...am a friend of Rev. Patrick and hope the Pagans on this forum will have good thoughts for him, come Friday 9:am eastern. I am hopeing C span will be airing it.

I feel that we have another set of foot prints to walk in...Patrick McCollum's. Goddess bless him...

(just thought I would share.)
terra

A. Thorn,

We all have different views and the majority of where we don't see eye to eye is gay marriage and abortion: First, Gay Marriage is unbiblical and of course, you say we don't believe in God or the bible. Well, God says it over and over that it's an abomination. Man should not lay with man and woman should not lay with woman. Also, abortion: bible-believing Christians believe that we are not to murder and we believe at conception, this begins life. We have no right to murder. How would you feel if someone gave birth to a baby and then decided to murder it. How about partial abortions. Isn't it the same? I believe it is....Also, let me ask you a question, do we care more for whales and mammals than for children or since it's so easy to lift the burden with an abortion. I've known several women who have had abortions and they've chose that option for several reasons; 1) In a relationship that was just physical and just didn't want any children; 2) May have been molested or raped; 3) Just didn't want children and they claim it to be an accidental pregancy, and of course there are so mahy other reasons. We don't have the right to murder anyone. Also, I've read, watched and known women who were traumatized by the experience of abortion years later; some who became suicidal or turned to medicating themselves (either with prescription drugs, or illegal drugs) or some just became very promiscious because they felt unclean or some show their guilt in different ways in their lives. Lastly, I am firm in my beliefs and call it bigotry, I stand on the truth of God's law. Plain and simple...

Angela:

"I tell you this: we as you call it the right wing will never allow gay marriages to take place; we will fight it all the way; it will never go through across these United States. And yes I am an American Citizen but first and foremost, I am a follower of Christ; not one before the other...."

If you could, I was wondering if you could tell me one reason why we should not let gay marriage become a national policy that doesn't rely on religious beliefs.

Here again we are back to respecting other's beliefs. Not everyone in this country believes that gay marriage is wrong. Legislating that it is wrong, because the Bible says it's wrong, is exactly what I was arguing before. Not everyone shares that opinion, and by legislating your own opinion, you make it criminal to believe or perform otherwise.

Gay marriage is a great example of this. If you don't believe in gay marriage, then you want it outlawed across the board. This means that even if you do believe in gay marriage, you can't do it.

On the other side: if you believe in gay marriage, then you want it available across the board. People who don't believe in gay marriage don't have to become gay, don't have to go to a church that allows gay marriage, or be friends with any gay person whether they are married or not.

But I have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that doesn't stem from a specific religious bent (at least any argument that went beyond something like, "I just don't like it;" which isn't really a good enough reason to legislate it). Saying that the Bible says it's wrong is fine. But to take that to the next step and say that it should be outlawed, even for people who don't believe in God or the Bible, is where we find fault with your argument.

Angela:

"I do believe in the "One True God" and that really makes others mock, scorn and practically call us fools for standing up for what we believe."

I would agree with this. However, I would also say that it goes the other way as well. For instance, try to put a Pagan up for national public office. See what 'good' Christians will call that person.

It's not right when it happens either way. And that's the reason that a lot of Secular people believe what they believe. If we stop caring about what religion a public officer is, or what our neighbor is, then the name calling will stop. But it does need to come from both sides. compromise isn't 'do what we do, and we'll like you then.' Compromise is meeting halfway, or is ending equal stupidity on both sides.

You have faith in One True God. I don't. As long as we can be civil and discuss these issues, and don't start lighting each other on fire for our different beliefs, we'll be fine.

To Terra Gazelle:

As well I'm in consistently being patient. You have no right to tell me that the way I see things is wrong. I will not start name calling as you do but again here we go again. I tell you this: we as you call it the right wing will never allow gay marriages to take place; we will fight it all the way; it will never go through across these United States. And yes I am an American Citizen but first and foremost, I am a follower of Christ; not one before the other....

Angela,

I am trying to be patient, and understand your view.
But you are wrong. Not in your view, for it is as you see things...but in thinking that your religious belief should have any relationship in my life. It doesn't.

I will put my standards and morality up against your's anytime. Your faith does not make better men or women, it does not make a better world..and it does not give any better a future for our children. It is the men and women who have compassion and empathy that make the difference. And that is not guarenteed by your religion or mine...or any religion at all.

If your religion or churches do not want to marry gays...ok fine, that is a partly religious act...it is also partly a civil act so let the churches do what is correct for them, and let those other entities do what is a civil right. If my state allowed it, I would marry gays...your religion forces those people into what you consider sin. They can be together 50 years and be true and loving partners yet not allow them their faiths' rite. Hypocrites.

Your faith is not enshrined in our Constitution. Period..and those of you stateing this is a "Christian" country can say it all you want...does not make it so.

Why is it that we all have to kowtow to Christians or be declared Christian bashers,,,but we have been belittled, marginized and told we were going to hell...as if hell had any meaning to us. But do we cry about being Pagan bashed? We stand up for ourselves, but we do not claim some kind of special privlege.

Angela, you are an American citizen, as am I. And in this country that makes us equal. Your religious beliefs have no more weight then an Atheists non belief. Get over it...live your faith as you see fit..but stop thinking it is ok to force your laws and your way of belief on others. Because if your side wins...there will be blood in the streets. Pagan men and women will not sit quietly..and we are not afraid to dance with fire and play with swords.

Pay attention to this...we love our faiths and our freedom...

terra

To: A Thorn,

It's nice to hear from someone who doesn't start blaspheming and is respectful, just as I am respectful of others but I have to admit; I do believe in the "One True God" and that really makes others mock, scorn and practically call us fools for standing up for what we believe. To each his own, no matter the outcome.

Have a blessed day!

BGone:

Do you ever get tired of spamming the same nonsense through every thread. I just read your site again, for the heck of it, and I've got to admit: for someone attacking a believe for not having many facts behind it, you certainly do seem to have a belief with absolutely no facts behind it. You're not an expert on the matter, you just spout whatever you want to say on that site. Which, based on the first amendment is your right, doesn't make your view of the facts correct.

So how about this: you stop schilling your site every chance you get, and argue the facts of the case here. Wouldn't that be a lot more fun than people just ignoring you because you can't seem to back up your own points of view?

Angela,

I think that part of the problem comes from the fact that Christians do believe in one God, and believe that he is the One True God. While not a problem in it's own right, as everyone should believe what they want to believe in, the problem comes from when people with a VERY strong belief in that OTG get into power, and start legislating the belief in that OTG, because it leaves out all others. This can pretty easily be seen by members of other religions as being a biggoted action, because it only helps those people who believe in that same OTG.

Do I think that all Christians are biggoted? No, absolutely not. I have friends that are Christian. If I thought they were biggots, I probably wouldn't be friends with them. However, if they WERE 'fanatical' then I wouldn't be friends with them either. My friends are my friends because we both accept each other despite the fact that we have different beliefs. We can get along with each other just fine, despite their belief in God, and my belief in many Gods. I think that the world would be a lot better off if we could ALL do that. If we all accepted that beliefs were personal, and that we all have the right to believe in what we believe in.

And we can't forget that there are fanatics out there, for pretty much all religions. In college, I got death threats and a brick through my window throw by a Christian because I was willing to be the public face for a Pagan organization. The people that were doing these things didn't even know what my beliefs were, only that I was willing to put my name on a form for an organization. It's that kind of senseless rejection of others' opinions that we need to work against. And we need to work against it on all sides of the fence.

Let me sum up what you said in a few words. Devil has a lot more control over some than others. And to that I can add that secularists are the least controlled by Him.

Religion is the great enemy of democracy because from time to time it attempts to take over and establish the anti-democracy of the kingdom of Devil.

No doubt, that was the great attraction of state religion to Constantine without whom Christians wouldn't be. Rome was on the verge of democracy at the time Connie bought and sold the notion that God willed his kingship. The Roman empire lasted less than 100 years thereafter with the entire known world sliding into the dark ages.

Ref: http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul There's God and then there are those that would be God. Constantine is one of those that would be God...an ailment that's still lurking about.

But God is nowhere to be found while Devil roams the earth looking for suckers to trade their freedom for a ticket to hell. That will last as long as the big money comes to those leading the multitudes to hell.

We can't stop people from smoking no matter how much sense not doing it makes. And we can't stop people from using the word of Lucifer known as the Holy Bible no matter how little sense that makes. What we can do is use the tax laws to make it a little more difficult to be stupid. At present the tax laws make religions the only owners of real estate in the country as just one easy example of law promoted stupidity...in spite of the constitution.

Huckabee is just a little bolder...something to do with the success at using evangelical stupidity of "born again" Bush no doubt.

A. Thorn, you're right: we should all respect others' views in this country but I believe there is a shift in the notion that those who believe in God and their entire life, including politics uses God's standards as the basis of every decision we are called: fanatical, bigotted and we should just shut up....I don't go around calling others names just because they don't believe in God; I do however, witness to them but it's up to them to reject the mssage or not just like I have to right and the priveledge to reject ungodly, worldly views in my life. The things that you've stated that you do are noble and more people should do those things; this world would be a better place to live; but I don't believe I'm good; as I don't believe anyone in this world is good. We have all done things in secret and maybe have had the opportunity to do the right thing in thousands, maybe millions of situations and haven't done so. We use others' standards to determine our goodness; my conscience bears witness to my living the way I'm taught to live, not by other's standards but by God's standards.

Angela:

"Yes, we should all respect others' views but not when it's in total opposition in what we claim we believe. "

So, basically, we should respect all viewpoints except those that differ from our own? You can't say that your God is the only God, and that you respect other's opinions on the matter, no matter what they are, except that they need to believe in God as well.

I don't believe in God. I fully respect your right to believe in God. It's fine with me if you love your neighbors, the oppressed, feed the homeless, etc. I do the same. I give blood all the time. I donated to the Red Cross after both Katrina and the Tsunami in Asia. Yet, I am not a Christian, do not believe in either God or Jesus, nor do I attend church. Do this make me a bad person, just because my actions aren't motivated by Christianity?

If my own personal beliefs match up with yours, it seems that I would be considered a good person. However, if we differ on a matter, I would imagine I would no longer be considered a good person by you. Even if I am trying to do the best I can in this world, according to my own personal beliefs. It is that that I find troublesome. If I don't do what you believe is right, and have an opposite opinion on something, I am just wrong. It doesn't matter if other Christians agree with me or not, you'd say I was going against God's will and morality. Legislating your opinion on the matter would mean that my opinion no longer mattered, because it would be illegal. That is a huge, huge problem for me.

Well said, Susan (and Barack).

Angela, you are as clueless as usual. It's my country , too - not just yours. When you pass a law based on YOUR interpretation of the Bible, we ALL have to live by it, even though some of us think you're 100% wrong. How is that fair? I know you think you're right - well, guess what, we all think we are. To me, you're dead wrong. So, as Barack said in the quote in Susan's article, we have to find common ground.

The big things seem to be abortion and gay marriage. Sorry, but whatever you think the Bible says, you just don't get to decide these issues for all of us. If you don't like abortion - don't get one. If you want to tell some other woman that she can't, then be prepared to raise, feed and educate the child that she doesn't want.

If the church doesn't like gay marriage, then the church doesn't have to perform gay marriages. But don't tell US citizens that they can't be married in a civil ceremony. It should be a constitutionally protected freedom for any citizen.

Susan,

I agree with some of what you say but as a Christian; first when Jesus spoke about the religious hippocrites that stand outside the temples and pray; he wasn't talking about standing up for what's right and wrong. Also, Jesus spoke about those religous folks who were clean on the outside but inside they were like dead men's tombs. Do we as Christians have to stand by and just be relative and agree with the notion of what liberals believe is right and wrong. Let's be real! I believe you are on the same page as the left wing liberals. Also, just my thinking Obama is an eloquent, very smart politician but he's definitely a liberal Christian. The James Dobsons and James Robisons have it right. Yes, we should all respect others' views but not when it's in total opposition in what we claim we believe. Most theologians of this day want to please men (the world) and not God. I don't believe that what you're saying is true; you make it sound like we are just making noise about religion instead of us speaking out on moral issues, by God's standards, not be mens. We love our neighbor, the oppressed, feed the homeless, those torn apart by natural disasters and are focused on family values not the values of Hollywood. Should we just throw God out of lives and this country to suit men which Jesus warns us that will lead to death "spirtual and eternal"

http://www.literatureclassics.com/showcreativeprint.asp?IDNo=1344

1342, 1343 and 1345 too

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/thomas_j_reese/2008/02/by_their_fruits_you_will_know_1/all_comments.html

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/pamela_k_taylor/2008/02/another_travesty_in_the_name_o/all_comments.html

Mrs Thistlethwaite

tornado
thunderstorm

Thor
thunder

thorne
Silybum Marianum
thistle

on AP on Yahoo,
the title of the video is from Denmark

Arkansas
Mike Huckabee

YAhoo
FOX TV

George Soros

KArl Rove
Barack Obama