Saving God from Those Who are Right

I'd like to clarify my post above and re-state the point that religious diversity is equalled by universal similarities as we see when viewing religion - as the expression of cognitive and psychological attributes common to humans everywhere, and these commonalities are nowhere more apparent than when viewing the underlying structures and functions of religious symbology, ritual practice and beliefs.

I'm thinking of some of the writing of E. Thomas Lawson as a professor emeritus of comparative religions from my old alma mater, Western Michigan University (and an old religion prof of mine from the 60's).

It might be worth pointing out that it's not only scientists as a collective body that have problems accepting religion as a set of literal truths (it is said that the number of scientists that believe in God is very low, and probably less than 20%).

The more one learns about religion in a cross-cultural comparative context, the more a person appreciates the vast creativity and artfully poetic allegory that is the essence of religion as mythology. While believers seem to have no problem accepting their particular faith literally at face value, people who study (comparative) religion professionally and academically will tend to see religion as a decidely human cultural undertaking, and with a foundation in human experience. Diversity in religious faith and experience is only equalled or excelled by the similarities found in all religious practice (especially when viewed as a primary psychological drive and according to underlying structure and functions). The literal truth of religion in this view is less important that the role(s) religion plays in society.

The 'supernatural' aspects of religion are not necessarily convincing to professional/academic religionists, and this includes many biblical scholars as well. This doesn't detract from the value of religion as a human enterprise - but the use and application of religion for ulterior motives is a different matter altogether.

For example, it has no place in politics because of the invariably covert motives that will be applied to 'public' displays of religion and religious piety and devotion...we've seen enough of that from the likes of Huckabee and he's not alone in this form of political persuasion. Hopefully this is a practice who's time has come and gone.

Separation of church and state is a good thing, wherein both religion and secular state/federal governments are insulated from the proximal effects of too much togetherness.

Gary D:

"The key attribute of fascism is intolerance of others: other religions, languages, political views, economic systems, cultural practices, etc. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to political and economic liberalism.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

Okay GaryD, I'm ready to learn how your liberal=fascism claims make sense, and how we're different on our claims. I'm not asking in an angry sense, but at the same time I'm not laughing at any "laughable assumption."

This particular work was compiled by Julia Cresswell, an academic scholar in languages and Medieval Literature, and was cross-referenced from a number of archaic sources that were written in several languages including the Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic, Persian, and Slavonic.

The mythology of religion is great fun but often lots of work to get it right - in fact this work represents a mere 2000 angelic beings from A-Z out of countless thousands (or perhaps an infinite number as mythology has it) - angels are particularly prevelant in the 3 Abrahamic faiths, although celestial beings are found in all the major religions of the world as far as I know.

It has been said that as divine messengers, angels serve an intermediary function between God and man, and only later after the Fall do they take on other (less divine) rolls.

Although originaly free of sin, angels have free will - as we see from the allegory of Satan's fall due to pride.

Clearly, fallen angels serve a cosmic function as 'devils' attempting to both test & lure man into indulging his lower 'animal' nature (even Jesus was tempted as we know) thus providing the challenges necessary to overcoming sin and temptation on the road to salvation.

Further recommended reading on this topic includes 'The Origin of Satan' and
'Adam, Eve, and the Serpent' by Elaine Pagels, a Harvard comparative religions scholar.

There are works available on angels of Islam as well, although angels seem to have their origins in Judaic and pre-Judaic sources (including Akkadian, Chaldean, Gnostic, & Zoroastrian origins among others).

Happy reading .......

Whose watkins and why should I listen to anything he says.

GaryD -

Please get your angelic facts straight if you don't mind. Per 'The Watkins Dictionary of Angels' and other sources, Lucifer, the light bringer and 'bright Son of the Morning' is still an angel is good standing, although frequently confused with Samael or Satan, the greatest of the fallen breed. Various (pejoritive) biblical remarks by Isaiah, John in Revelations, and finally Milton in 'Paradise Lost' mistakenly sealed poor Lucifer's fate as the king of the fallen angels.

Think of him on those occasions when you're gazing in rapt fascination at Venus, the Morning Star.....or think of the great Buddha himself, who was said (after a long night of meditation) to have reached a profound state of complete enlightenment as he followed the path of the Morning Star at day break - and thereafter tradition has it that he acquired the power of omniscience, among other siddhas (powers) that are said to accompany that rarified state of mind. He was said to to superordinate to angels and devils alike in the cosmic scheme of things.

I'll just bet that Bush is no star gazer.....

Satan by any name is allegorical. It is the personification of evil, just as Mammon is the personification of money. There is no such living entity.

The world believes in many different gods, but oddly enough most religions belief in the devil. Anyone who believes in the devil is limited in their understanding of God.

It is a historical fact that the only difference between National Socialism as seen by Moussolini and the Socialism espoused by the former Soviet Union was that Italy was at the center rather than The Soviet Union.

As for Bush being a Fascist that is about the most laughable assumption of the last 50 years.

The burning bush to me would be representative of a woman as it is singular or alternatively depending upon the thinking of others for or against, a man but essentially of that period of both. Now if you were anyone looking to exclude anyone or many persons then go build your own church but as you will all understand by your own opinions do not expect to be excluded from the next debate and hostilities associated with opinions that socially exclude and cause the persecution of the enslaved socially conscious survivor of any wars and other social cultures.

To GARYD

The average socialist could sue you for that remark. If you are lucky just one of those average socialists, but I doubt it.

TO GARYD:

What exactly is a closet fascist in relation to socialism? Also, is that remark contrary to the rules of this forum? LGBT's Jews Gypsy’s and many other cultures were liberated by socially conscious people in many conflicts including from the second world war to the present. ACHTUNG?

You are of course wrong Had God not wished to involve men He'd have never said let there be light.

You put forth ignorance masquerading as wisdom and act surprised when you are told it is ignorance.

Garyd:

For one thing I don't worship lucifer.

The devil isn't omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. He doesn't need to be. Man's inherent selfishness saves him the trouble.
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Let me help you a little. You said, "I don't worship lucifer." Try saying, "I don't intentionally worship Lucifer." But don't forget that ignorance is no excuse. You will face God some day and what will you say when God asks if anyone gave you a clue? Will God ask, "can you look at a picture?" You don't want God to put you in the picture do you?

Yes, you can belittle God with some nonsense like God wants to involve people. The being in the burning bush fails all tests for God. Don't forget that and remember that the con man has an explanation like, "God wants" whatever it is he wants you to believe. But!!! Wherever does the con man get his information about what God wants? But of course, from the being in the burning bush, Lucifer. The Bible is the word of the being in the burning bush, Lucifer. It's blasphemy, the only deadly sin to say the Bible is the word of God you know.

Would Devil lie? Would Devil's representatives lie? Did/does Lucifer want to be God? Do Lucifer's representatives claiming to know what God wants, do they want Lucifer to be God? That's what the fallen angels wanted. How about you?

God surely has all the attributes you say God has. Lucifer has none of them. He gets His power from people who believe his representatives, ministers, ayatollahs etc. It is them that would destroy democracy and establish the kingdom of what, God or Devil? Methinks it's a Devil that would be God they represent and His name is Lucifer. You can tell it's Lucifer by His lack of power alone.

They say Jesus is coming to be the king of earth. Jesus was fathered by the being in the burning bush, Lucifer. Need I say more? How about, God is ignored while Devil has many representatives claiming to represent God that would destroy democracy--amend the constitution to create the kingdom of Devil, run by the ministry like it once was when the pope crowned the kings.

"Religion is the great enemy of democracy" and Huck adds an exclamation point to that statement. Huck is far from alone, sad but true.

GaryD:

sorry to run into you on the same posts, we have similar interests I guess.

Again, I'll only put out there that I'm so tired of the Republican base not seeing themselves in the mirror when criticizing folks: leftists as "fascist?"

Where have you been the last 7 years GaryD? How has any administration in the last 40 years been more fascist than the one we own now?

Please show me, with whatever evidence I can investigate, how the Republican party is anything more than interested in Rule, and the systematic dis-assembling of government. It's greatest irony is that they hate government so much, but are very eager to be in the position of rulership to destroy it.

GaryD, how often do you think the Republican-lead Congress met to work in the legislature (in days-per-week?) prior to the Democrats becoming the majority. How much do they work now, (mostly to undo the damage that's been done by the Republicans?) I'll pre-answer that question as a hint: when your primary job is to rubber-stamp legislation that excludes genuine debate, checks and balances, and overseeing executive-branch power, it doesn't take too long.

Sorry for the long political rant--it just irritates the heck out of me to see people falling for your demon-liberal BS. You're still not as good as Anne Coulter, though.

PS, I'm really not a mean guy. I just need, at this point in my life, to see people looking at solutions to things and not just the general Republican rule-book creation of "wedge" issues and non-progress. And I realize this isn't a political blog, so my appologies--but sheesh man, lighten up on the categorical demonizations...
Maybe we should get drunk at a bar together somewhere, it'd do us both good.

For one thing I don't worship lucifer.

The devil isn't omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. He doesn't need to be. Man's inherent selfishness saves him the trouble.

How do you know that the Bush is lucifer?

God can of course do whatever he wishes. In this case he wished human involvement in his grand plan.

Strange isn't it? It isn't like the plan from the very beginning had man at its very center, oh wait.... It did.

Garyd: Wrote the following about God, (clearly blasphemy)

>>1st is the assumption that God has an immutable form rather than the ability to assume any form He wishes as he is spirit not a physical entity.

>>2nd as God is omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent -all of which are absolutely necessary if one is to ever achieve perfection - he knows precisely what the devil is up to and can at need do what ever is necessary to put a stop to it.
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No problem with "1st" except -how do you know that was God in the burning bush and not Lucifer? Are you making an assumption of any kind?

If "2nd" is so then why did God:
>>omnipotent - God could get the Israelites or anyone out of anywhere to anywhere by simply willing it. Gross assumption to say the being in the burning bush was omnipotent and stupid to say omnipotent beings need help from people -leads to 9-11-2001 where "puny" God cannot "will" WTC out of existence -needs martyrs hijack airplanes etc.

>>omniscient - doesn't seem to apply. Has what to do with freeing slaves or knocking down tall buildings? All knowing but impotent? Maybe? Power comes with knowledge doesn't it?

>>omnipresent - if "this being" is everywhere present then why did IT "tag along" - "by day in a cloud and at night glowed"? Wasn't IT already there? Yes indeed, God is everywhere and Devil 'goes' everywhere. The biggest Devil, Lucifer just loves churches, temples, synagogues and mosques. How about tabernacles?

I can't promise you can be saved from your blasphemy because I don't know and openly admit it. We will all stand before God some day, no doubt. How are you going to explain worshiping Lucifer? That story about the fallen angels might be so ya know.

Maybe http://www.hoax-buster.org will help you. If the Bible, the whole thing is a hoax...? But then there is the matter that God has not really told us what will happen to people who use hoaxes to describe IT. Better safe than sorry I sometimes say. I been sorry a time or two myself.

Oh gee another useless channel among the hundreds already available.

Roy the dominionists represent about 1 percent of Christians if that I'd need considerably more than your say so that Huckabee is among them. By the way I've no intention of voting for Huckabee, Abortion and Gay marriage are about our only points of agreement.

Given that your average leftist is a closet fascist aka statist who believes that there is a government solution for every problem no matter how counter productive that solution might prove to be.

Religion is a guide that has been over done and over done again and again. some might see this as being racist sexist fascist etcetera, but all we complain about will always be a problem best to make tracks somewhere else and hope those who wage war for the implementation of what is best left alone will leave all those who were and might still be grateful to be grateful for what we have and to be left alone to continue to enjoy what difference does it make if we can love our lives and others lives who would do the same for us no matter what the differences if any can be perceived.

Religion is a guide that has been over done and over done again and again. some might see this as being racist sexist fascist etcetera, but all we complain about will always be a problem best to make tracks somewhere else and hope those who wage war for the implementation of what is best left alone will leave all those who were and might still be grateful to be grateful for what we have and to be left alone to continue to enjoy what difference does it make if we can love our lives and others lives who would do the same for us no matter what the differences if any can be perceived.

This is much more than about abortion. This is about Sinclair Lewis' prediction that fascism will come to America wrapped in the flag with one hand and a cross in the other. The dominionist agenda is to make their own definition of "God's Standards" by cherry picking Old Testament Scripture while ignoring the New Testament love of Christ. Huckabee apparently doesn't care if the flag is American or the Confederate banner of hate as long as it panders to voters. We need to be afraid of the Mike Huckabee's, very afraid.

Ooooopppsssaaa

Correction: "Soon , Soon "i" will have me own O.U.R. "Satellite-Tube" (ECLATi-ON weekly Holy Cosmic Feelers, movie/show). Thanka Shame!

Att: G A R Y D, et al;

Hallalejua!

IT builds worlds. IT is ITSELF. IT knows ALL, nothing is external to ITSELF!

IT is in and of Us-ALL, together Forever with SOURCE-ONE!

PS: GARYD, et al;

Haaaaaappppyyyy Evvvvvveerrrry Daaayyyy Toooooooo Yooooooo!

O.K., Please never mention the, not-Jealous & thus fearles, Creator of O.U.R.sinless & cusethless Holy Cosmic Fiat-Lux awarenss since we appear, in MIRACLE, via the ECLAT + "i" as ETERNiTY AVOiDiNG Lonliness in and of Us all!

Note GARYD, et al;

Soon , Soon "i" will have me own Satellite ECLATi-ON weekly show. Problem is, we Eclati-On's have an EIGHT-DAY-WEEK Calandate. So looks like, besides O.U.R. Web site(s), that Pre-Apocalyptic "Mondays" will be considered 8th day.

Note: We-HUMATES, not humans, will distribute the Eclati-On 8-Day-Calandate, to all who seek IT (not Him/Her), around MARCH or Sept, Eqonox-day this year. Thank You Cyber Friend(s) & real Friend(s)!

Jovez being called sick by the boards most singularly deranged poster is a guarantor of normality.

I use He when I reference God in the third person singular because it is convenient not because I believe God who is spirit and therefore neither male or female is masculine.

The concept of a soul is intriguing... What does it really mean to have a soul and is it really necessary? In particular, why do we have to use this concept of a soul, which has never been observed in any quantifiable way, to explain our religious beliefs? As prof. Thistlethwaite mentions, it was a concept that existed in the early church. A quick search through the Torah/OT shows that it predates Christianity. So what is the origin of the concept of a soul?

1st is the assumption that God has an immutable form rather than the ability to assume any form He wishes as he is spirit not a physical entity.

2nd as God is omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent -all of which are absolutely necessary if one is to ever achieve perfection - he knows precisely what the devil is up to and can at need do what ever is necessary to put a stop to it.

In the cold of my own.

Last night,
with a wispher
in the sunshine
of a melody, I tried
to invent the
sound of a tender
emotion and also
my life discovered
the minute and
a beautiful child.

Garyd:

You wrote, "By the way the assumptions in this hoax busters site are even more ludicrous and full of holes than most and that's going some and yes I read it and found it farcical at best to say nothing of illogical ill considered a just plan silly."

Could you give us some examples, specifics? What in particular don't you understand? I can only agree with your finding but for a radically different reason -he quotes from sacred scriptures that make assumptions, God in the burning bush, which is ludicrous and silly -says God is on fire with the fire of hell. How big an assumption, how ludicrous and how silly.

I understand how difficult it must be for you to realize you are a blasphemer and headed directly to hell. Ignorance is no excuse.

Susan, you and I (a Christian and an atheist) can travel down this similar road together, thank goodness.

I find it more and more enlightening to read of Christians (and Christian leaders) willing to draw the line when it would come to a "God's standards" government.

We have so very much in government that needs repair, and if I were still a praying man I'd pray that the first thing on the priority list of any new administration would be to re-establish a balance of power (a legitimate system of checks and balances,) the applicability of due process and debate in Congress, and the de-politicizing of our judicial system which has suffered so much damage over the last 40 years or so, and the riddance of the profound secrecy that has permeated our current Bush/Cheney presidency.

My gosh I'd think people would learn, having seen the erosion of government by the people for the people over the last 7 years, with folks like Huckabee ready to endorse the change of rules (yet again) to fulfill his potentially disasterous agenda.

In case anyone wants to appreciate a sampling of the status of our current government, I'd suggest "Broken Government" by John Dean. Huckabee is someone we need less of if our republic stands a chance. I find myself agreeing with Dean, about the Republican majority being all about "rule," and very little about governing.

As a man, my attitude toward abortion is absolute: I don't intend to have one, no matter what.

All seriousness aside, the question of abortion, as a national debate, should be decided by women ONLY. If it comes to another showdown, put the issue on a national referendum and let women decide.

Thomas Aquinas was Catholic, not Christian. The three hundred years or so that the RCC ruled Europe revealed its true nature.

Jesus never killed anyone, neither did he advocate killing anyone, nor did he sanction killing anyone. He laid down his life rather than kill (he had the power even while on the cross to annihilate mankind), and he commanded his disciples to follow his example.

The government must in fact recognize all religious institutions and remain neutral between them nor can it legally act against those whose view of religion is that it is but the grossest of farces.

By the way the assumptions in this hoax busters site are even more ludicrous and full of holes than most and that's going some and yes I read it and found it farcical at best to say nothing of illogical ill considered a just plan silly.

1st amendment, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”

All of that is well and good but how do we get around the tax laws that clearly establish religion? And when the government recognizes a religion does that not establish it?

We've trampled the first amendment until the politicians have become bold. Huckabee is buying votes by indicating he's ready to establish the theocracy demanded by the blasphemers.

Just a reminder, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul stands unchallenged in it's finding that the Bible is the word of Devil. That means the words evangelical and blasphemer are synonyms. There is but one deadly sin, blasphemy -deadly for democracy as well as the souls of those who do it.

Ignorance is no excuse for blasphemy. The students you graduate are more ignorant than when they arrived -been negative educated -think Lucifer is God -blaspheme. Blasphemy is probably the most ignorant of sins as well as being the only deadly one. It does bring the wealth of earth to those successful in leading people to hell. I'll grant you that.