Pride Caused Us to Attack Iraq

I find it quite amazing how we fail to recognize one of the simplest and profound statements mankind has ever uttered, "treet others as we would have them treat us". If we could all live up to the Golden Rule, all other law would be useless. Perhaps in the end the demise of our species is the only answer to the continuation of the remainder.
When the writings of people such as reverand Thistlethwaite don't draw the attantion of the masses, how can we have any other expectation for our future?

Well, who knows why it began, all I know is that all these wars on "terrorism" (or terrorist wars - which ever way you want to look at it), have helped George W. Bush stay in power. Wars are a great distraction from the innocent families in America who don't fair well under a capitalist agenda. Wars are a great distraction from peace and prosperity. If you don't know how to run a country, just invest all your money in the military, attack another nation, tell everyone that God told you to do it, and you'll be fine.

Allan.

Well, who knows why it began, all I know is that all these wars on "terrorism" (or terrorist wars - which ever way you want to look at it), have helped George W. Bush stay in power. Wars are a great distraction from the innocent families in America who don't fair well under a capitalist agenda. Wars are a great distraction from peace and prosperity. If you don't know how to run a country, just invest all your money in the military, attack another nation, tell everyone that God told you to do it, and you'll be fine.

Allan.

Well, who knows why it began, all I know is that all these wars on "terrorism" (or terrorist wars - which ever way you want to look at it), have helped George W. Bush stay in power. Wars are a great distraction from the innocent families in America who don't fair well under a capitalist agenda. Wars are a great distraction from peace and prosperity. If you don't know how to run a country, just invest all your money in the military, attack another nation, tell everyone that God told you to do it, and you'll be fine.

Allan.

Pride is why we stay oil is the reason it began.

I USED to think that religion was the most dangerous drug of ALL - now I`m convincd religion
isn`t merely a drug, but rather, a *disease* (on par with schizophrenia, et al)

No, a spoiled, stupid brat led by his nose ring by people that are excellent at brown nosing, and playing up to people that are powerful, stupid and totally egocentric.

God is the final arbiter.

The stench of our collective sin has reached to the heavens and his judgement is pending.

Whatever form that judgement takes will be well deserved.

Rev. Thistlethwaite's translation of Proverbs is straightforward: We need to get out of Iraq.

I would ask: How do you do that?
Now that the fruits of pride have been planted and have for seven years taken root, what else does one say when saying goodbye?
The harvest of these fruits may not be tasteful to Americans, nor will they easy to stomach in Iraq. Who is willing to lead a withdrawal before the big bombs begin to fall?

Rev. Thistlethwaite's translation of Proverbs is straightforward: We need to get out of Iraq.

I would ask: How do you do that?
Now that the fruits of pride have been planted and have for seven years taken root, what else does one say when saying goodbye?
The harvest of these fruits may not be tasteful to Americans, nor will they easy to stomach in Iraq. Who is willing to lead a withdrawal before the big bombs begin to fall?

Every person is born with pride is it one of (Animal Instincts) based on ignorance the more ignorance the more the pride cling to you. The people behind this kind of crimes would have pride as they are human, but moreover they use their follower pride and ego to manoeuvre them toward the noose they have prepared for them. Pride makes it barer blind to truth and stays ignorant. Now lets everyone of us look at himself and find where, why and how EGO is coming from understand it the put it in a secure box then we will see the world in Black and White no grey area.
Remember that Human is creature of habits, once starts doing things in certain way he/she stuck with it until finds the well.
Remember Capitalism is by default and policy change peoples habits to suit itself regardless using all the tools in its deposal.

So we are to blame due to ignorance of the truth, not knowing what the human being is and how it works.

Here’s something for you friends

1. Knowledge is the legacy of the prophets. Wealth is the inheritance of the Pharaohs. Therefore, knowledge is better than wealth.
2. You are to guard your wealth but knowledge guards you. So knowledge is better.
3. A man of wealth has many enemies while a man of knowledge has many friends. Hence knowledge is better.
4. Knowledge is better because it increases with distribution, while wealth decreases by that act.
5. Knowledge is better because a learned man is apt to be generous while a wealthy person is apt to be miserly.
6. Knowledge is better because it cannot be stolen while wealth can be stolen.
7. Knowledge is better because time cannot harm knowledge, but wealth rusts in course of time and wears away.
8. Knowledge is better because it is boundless while wealth is limited and you can keep account of it.
9. Knowledge is better because it illuminates the mind while wealth is apt to blacken it.
10. Knowledge is better because knowledge induced the humanity in our Prophet to say to Allah, "We worship Thee as we are Your servant," while wealth engendered in Pharaoh and Nimrod the vanity which made them claim Godhead.

What wisdom! Yet today our people are dispassionate about seeking knowledge. Why? Do they know what Imam Ibn Hazm (R) - the great Spanish Muslim theologian, jurist and poet - said? He said, “If knowledge had no other merit than to make the ignorant fear and respect you, and scholars love and honor you, this would be good enough reason to seek after it… If ignorance had no other fault than to make the ignorant man jealous of knowledgeable men and jubilant at seeing more people like himself, this by itself would be reason enough to oblige us to feel it… If knowledge and the action of devoting oneself to it had no purpose except to free the man who seeks it from the exhausting anxieties and many worries which afflict the mind, that alone would certainly be enough to drive us to seek knowledge.” [4] I only wish that his remarks would wake our people to seeking and mastering knowledge.

Ignorant fools.

1. The West understanding of Democracy is like waving for one of the two Taxies then the Taxi driver takes you wherever he wants and you are paying the fares.
2. What does “With us or against us” mean? Does that mean I m right and the rest of humanity is wrong, doesn’t that what a dictatorship base upon……Ironic……”for fellow Americans you need to look in the dictionary for that”.
3. Why when we talk about Iran we automatically regard them as an enemy, just because they don’t jump when we say jump, or because they know how the west think, and its weakness and we can’t fool or scare them like we have done to the Arabs, and in return terrifies us……….what they know and have that we don’t……….. Think Freely please………. you might get it…………… I think they want to help us from self harming ourselves by our ignorance, short term policies based on greed, arrogance, ego and shallowness….. by bullying ……..just be honest with ourselves … is a virtue …… bless………

The problem is in us and our lack of relationship with each other. Money has replaced salvation. What a shame..

How could you be so stupid? OIL caused us to attack Iraq.

Where is God to help the Palestians and the Iraqs? How about you bible thumpers sa a prayer today to wake -up god and punish the chosen ones?
Get this--911 attacks were not done by Arabs,unless you consider Isrealies as such. Wake-up fools. Those morons that still spout that Saddam was evil and gassed his own people--get wise fools. The gas was given to Saddam by USA and the Iranians got it from Israel. Oh where is that God--when you need him most ?
Blame the Christians on the mess USA caused throughout the world--bullchips. Mel Gibson was right --enough said!

In my view it is more likely than not that there is no god. Belief in god and religion does not have exclusive rights to the human values that would keep us from waging war and teach us to love and care for one another. So believing or not believing, trusting or not trusting god have little to do with it. Actually "belief" and a self serving (greed, quest for power, american exceptionalism, etc.)interpretation of the bible(religion)is what contributed the crime of Iraq.

I am a person who believes in karmic retribution and that in a very big picture, no one gets away with a thing.
I wonder abouy a Scale of Justice for the slaughter of innocent people with the anguished cries of war of aggression widows,orphans and cripples rising all around.
What is the counter balance on the scale to military arrogance and active indifference?

..

Sorry to disagree with you Reverend.

Pride may have told us we would win this war and arrogance may have hardened us to its costs in terms of Iraqi and American lives, but this war was started and continues for the benefit of Israel. The vast majority of our legislators and officials of the executive branch either receive political contributions from the Pro-Israeli Lobby or live in fear of crossing the Pro-Israeli Lobby. At the bequest of that Lobby and the state of Israel, our government conceived and pursued this war with the goal of eliminating a major "so-called" threat to Israel's existence and ensuring permanent Israeli hegemony in the region. One could wisely argue that Israel's position has weakened as a result of this campaign. While that is true, it does not change the original purpose of the war and it only reinforces the cravenness and stupidity (there's that new sin again) of our compromised elected officials who insist on continuing the war.

Pride and Arrogance may be sins but they fall short of describing the evil carried out in the name of our government. I believe John Lennon's words apply equally well in 1970 as they do today. All we are saying, to Israel and America, is give peace a chance.

..

Nice try, but Christianity had nothing to do with our invasion or war in Iraq! Not out of any sense of "Religious Blather", Christian duty, or Sin of Pride, but out of "FEAR" of attact & self defence, based on intel misinformation. WMD.

The Just War Theory gives society the right of "self defence" but can not result in greater destruction than existed before the war. The Pope warned us and did not support the invasion!

I will attribute this one Religious attachment to war! IMO, wars are permitted by God as punishment for sin! While the Church prays for peace and deliverance from wars in the midst of abortion,euthanasia, porn, sins against nature and natural sex, drugs, murders, abuse, etc...we still get war, because of society's sins.

But you go ahead and keep blaming it on Christians, and I'll keep blaming it on the sins of the world.(It's the bigger picture!)

Nice try, but Christianity had nothing to do with our invasion or war in Iraq! Not out of any sense of "Religious Blather", Christian duty, or Sin of Pride, but out of "FEAR" of attact & self defence, based on intel misinformation. WMD.

The Just War Theory gives society the right of "self defence" but can not result in greater destruction than existed before the war. The Pope warned us and did not support the invasion!

I will attribute this one Religious attachment to war! IMO, wars are permitted by God as punishment for sin! While the Church prays for peace and deliverance from wars in the midst of abortion,euthanasia, porn, sins against nature and natural sex, drugs, murders, abuse, etc...we still get war, because of society's sins.

But you go ahead and keep blaming it on Christians, and I'll keep blaming it on the sins of the world.(It's the bigger picture!)

Nice try, but Christianity had nothing to do with our invasion or war in Iraq! Not out of any sense of Christian duty or Sin of Pride, but out of "FEAR" of attact & self defence, based on intel misinformation. WMD.

The Just War Theory gives society the right of "self defence" but can not result in greater destruction than existed before the war. The Pope warned us and did not support the invasion!

I will attribute this one Religious attachment to war! IMO, wars are permitted by God as punishment for sin! While the Church prays for peace and deliverance from wars in the midst of abortion,euthanasia, porn, sins against nature and natural sex, drugs, murders, abuse, etc...we still get war, because of society's sins.

But you go ahead and keep blaming it on Christians, and I'll keep blaming it on the sins of the world.(It's the bigger picture!)

Nice try, but Christianity had nothing to do with our invasion or war in Iraq! Not out of any sense of Christian duty or Sin of Pride, but out of "FEAR" of attact & self defence, based on intel misinformation. WMD.

The Just War Theory gives society the right of "self defence" but can not result in greater destruction than existed before the war. The Pope warned us and did not support the invasion!

I will attribute this one Religious attachment to war! IMO, wars are permitted by God as punishment for sin! While the Church prays for peace and deliverance from wars in the midst of abortion,euthanasia, porn, sins against nature and natural sex, drugs, murders, abuse, etc...we still get war, because of society's sins.

But you go ahead and keep blaming it on Christians, and I'll keep blaming it on the sins of the world.(It's the bigger picture!)

USA is selfappointed police force of the world.
Who is the police the USA? Just nobody.
USA can interfere when Serbs killed the muslim Bosniance.No need to take any action in Darfur,or Israely aggression last 60 years.Provide assistance to Iraq on Iran war.Chemical weapon on Vitnam war(Agent Orange),carpet bombing in Cambodia,nuclear attack on Hyroshima - Nagasaki.

Whole world is not so innocence either,nobody doing anything just waiting Bush presidential term ends on 2009.

So maybe we are desrve to be ruled by a man who is so stupid but(Stupidity is not a sin)so its ok.
We are not so proud after all to be ruled by this ignorant man.

One question:
Those people murdered and theyr supporters(ONE BILLION MUSLIMS)do we think they don't have a pride to fight back if they find a time and means to fight back.And time they do have and means certenly will have,probably working owertime)

Irony is that most likely all muslim countries will have a WOMD probably very soon.

USA is selfappointed police force of the world.
Who is the police the USA? Just nobody.
USA can interfere when Serbs killed the muslim Bosniance.No need to take any action in Darfur,or Israely aggression last 60 years.Provide assistance to Iraq on Iran war.Chemical weapon on Vitnam war(Agent Orange),carpet bombing in Cambodia,nuclear attack on Hyroshima - Nagasaki.

Whole world is not so innocence either,nobody doing anything just waiting Bush presidential term ends on 2009.

So maybe we are desrve to be ruled by a man who is so stupid but(Stupidity is not a sin)so its ok.
We are not so proud after all to be ruled by this ignorant man.

One question:
Those people murdered and theyr supporters(ONE BILLION MUSLIMS)do we think they don't have a pride to fight back if they find a time and means to fight back.And time they do have and means certenly will have,probably working owertime)

Irony is that most likely all muslim countries will have a WOMD probably very soon.

USA is selfappointed police force of the world.
Who is the police the USA? Just nobody.
USA can interfere when Serbs killed the muslim Bosniance.No need to take any action in Darfur,or Israely aggression last 60 years.Provide assistance to Iraq on Iran war.Chemical weapon on Vitnam war(Agent Orange),carpet bombing in Cambodia,nuclear attack on Hyroshima - Nagasaki.

Whole world is not so innocence either,nobody doing anything just waiting Bush presidential term ends on 2009.

So maybe we are desrve to be ruled by a man who is so stupid but(Stupidity is not a sin)so its ok.
We are not so proud after all to be ruled by this ignorant man.

One question:
Those people murdered and theyr supporters(ONE BILLION MUSLIMS)do we think they don't have a pride to fight back if they find a time and means to fight back.And time they do have and means certenly will have,probably working owertime)

Irony is that most likely all muslim countries will have a WOMD probably very soon.

Pride didnt propel us into attacking Iraq. Israel and the neocons did. Wake up and pray for enlightenment.

The invasion of Iraq was to secure the reelection of George W. Bush after the humiliation of 9-11. Of course, trillions in debt, 4 million driven from their homes, and hundreds of thousands are now dead, but who cares? Mission Accomplished!!! Hooray!! Bush was reelected!!! He got to land on the aircraft carrier!!!

Love.

Keep it up moody the willingness of murderous swine like the Taliban to die in droves before the weapons of the West is a great aid in ridding Islam of this scourge of 14th century barbarians.

Keep it up moody the willingness of murderous swine like the Taliban to die in droves before the weapons of the West is a great aid in ridding Islam of this scourge of 14th century barbarians.

Come on bring it on in Afghanistan.
We would love to see you going bankrupt with your crumbling economy and dollar.

American cawords will ALSO be humilated in Afghanistan like the Russians.

In Afghanistan who ever oppose USA is branded as Taliban and that is more than 90% of population STILL controlling more than 80% of the country.

USA supported Taliban to defeat Communism.
Don't you think now Russia is also supporting Taliban to humilate warmongaring capitialist, zionist secular Monstor.

Your eneimies enemy is your friend!!!!

Nonsense Mr. Abbott.

Pride is truly a deadly sin, and for those who suffer from it, like our "president", it is turning out to be deadly for thousands of others who, for the most part are innocent of doing anything except what "King " George and his 'stooges' tell them too.
I refer to our troops and the people of Iran!
Bush's un-mitigated lust for power and money have made him so full of HIMSELF there's hardly any room for the cowardice he also possesses!
When he was 'serving' his country he stayed 'hid out' most of the time, but NOW he is Mr. Gung-ho because he doesn't have to put his life on the line every day as our brave young men and women do!
As for him being a 'Christian' I have a theory on politicians and Christians that goes like this: YOU CAN BE ONE OR THE OTHER...BUT NOT BOTH!
Jerry F. Abbott,Alabama
Korean War Veteran

Pride is truly a deadly sin, and for those who suffer from it, like our "president", it is turning out to be deadly for thousands of others who, for the most part are innocent of doing anything except what "King " George and his 'stooges' tell them too.
I refer to our troops and the people of Iran!
Bush's un-mitigated lust for power and money have made him so full of HIMSELF there's hardly any room for the cowardice he also possesses!
When he was 'serving' his country he stayed 'hid out' most of the time, but NOW he is Mr. Gung-ho because he doesn't have to put his life on the line every day as our brave young men and women do!
As for him being a 'Christian' I have a theory on politicians and Christians that goes like this: YOU CAN BE ONE OR THE OTHER...BUT NOT BOTH!
Jerry F. Abbott,Alabama
Korean War Veteran

Pride is truly a deadly sin, and for those who suffer from it, like our "president", it is turning out to be deadly for thousands of others who, for the most part are innocent of doing anything except what "King " George and his 'stooges' tell them too.
I refer to our troops and the people of Iran!
Bush's un-mitigated lust for power and money have made him so full of HIMSELF there's hardly any room for the cowardice he also possesses!
When he was 'serving' his country he stayed 'hid out' most of the time, but NOW he is Mr. Gung-ho because he doesn't have to put his life on the line every day as our brave young men and women do!
As for him being a 'Christian' I have a theory on politicians and Christians that goes like this: YOU CAN BE ONE OR THE OTHER...BUT NOT BOTH!
Jerry F. Abbott,Alabama
Korean War Veteran

Again Hitler said many things in his speeches. In Mein Kampf he wrote of his beliefs. Which one do you think is going to more accurately represent his true views? Speeches given to inspire a public that was largely Christian at least nominally or His book in which he pored out his soul as damaged as that soul was? I'll go with the Book.

Additionally, I'm still shocked about Huckabee's "putting that Constitution in it's place..." described so well over on the Georgetown Blog at this site.

Terry, well said I think.

Get ready for the "fear factor" to be a part of the upcoming political campaigns. From the Guillani "9/11" verbage to the "Democrats are soft on terror" to the "we need a fearless leader like McCain who will lead us battling ahead on this war on terror."

Instead of working toward the huge domestic issues we face as a nation, we'll be hashing around proposals such as HR 888, amnesty for telecommunications "spying" activities, abortion, gay marriage, "family values." "War on...." seems to be a registered trademark of the republican party.

Sorry for the rant. I've been reading too much Glenn Greenwald I guess. It's lunchtime and I just need to eat.

RJ -

Couldn't help reading your post. Some folks are chronically at war, and some are not. You appear to be one who sees war in every neighborhood and on every street corner (I'm guessing an occupational hazard??) I was in 'Nam myself & my view is different - wrong war, wrong time, and wrong place....victory was never an option contrary to your claims that the 'liberals' pulled out early. I've heard that one before. Hey, 10 years ought to be long enough to win any war. It's time to stop fighting that one.

Iraq - wrong war, wrong time, wrong place and wrong (phony) reasons. Yes, Bush has a legacy and it's called preemptive war (a real American first). Evangelicals were behind this war and they'd be pretty happy to see us drop a few bombs in Iran, don't you suppose?? Should anybody trust evangelicals in government ever again?? Probably not...and they may not be done with us yet.

Everyone dies, just not today, right?? How is it that the creators of war (and their offspring) never get to do any of the fighting and dieing?? Damned mystery if you ask me - just wasn't their day to die I guess.

There's danger lurking everywhere, and religion never saved a single soul from their inevitable demise - sometimes religion even hurries things along, if you know what I mean.

Fight when you have to, otherwise take it easy....the end will come soon enough. Panic and fear went a long way toward getting the public behind the invasion of Iraq, just as panic and fear is stoking the big Wall street sell-off - totally irrational, but everyone's scared of ..... well, something, but what??

Might as well relax because ... the end is coming. That's the one thing that is guaranteed.

Real sin should be defined as the lack of remorse or regret for acting against humanity. We are all guilty at one point or another based on the seven deadly sins. Denial becomes the self fulfilling prophecy but does not erase the sin. Lack of remorse or regret for violation against humanity is sin.
It is personal.
Iraq? We all share in this sin because we bestowed our trust in a leader who is unworthy. Bestowing trust many times is a black hole. Being a child about it is easy. Its the growing up part that's difficult.

What would Jesus say about all this?

Right in, Nick! Well said !

BUSH attacked IRAQ because it is a weak country
without WMD. would he dare to attack CHINA?RUSSIA?

Hi Nick!

Again, I want to say that I admire your obvious "lust" for peace. If only it could be so. But, again, I simply have to ask you to come down from your soap box long enough to take that breather. Partner, I don't hate you. Let me say it again... I don't hate you. And your quest for peace is truly inspiring, albeit pure, unatainable idealism. The problem with your theory, even if no other theory is acceptable to you, is that coexistence is just simply a pipe dream. When you were taking those college courses, did you ever study sociology? Why do blacks live in black neighborhoods, Nick? Why latinos in latino neighborhoods? Why asians in asian neighborhoods? Come on, Nick. Use that intellectual noodle. America, like the world, is just not a melting pot, and no tantrum you throw, no matter how severe, will ever change that. Oil and water, buddy. And it all plays back to the original thrust of our little discussion. Worse than that, look at you pointing the finger. Freakin' republicans!!! Really? So because somebody has a different view than you... what? They suck? Conservatives didn't get you in to any war, my forgetful friend. It was bi-partisan. Took both sides. The part you don't get, the part you will never get because you've made a conscious choice to view the world with secular eyes, is that orthodox Christians, the real bible believers, typically don't go looking for fights. Really, they don't care, because the goal of this life is to make the cut for what's next. Seriously, you think you can make some heaven on earth? I say impossible. Not because of you, but because people in this world will kill you simply for what you have. People in this world will kill you simply for being an American. People will kill you simply because you're white, because you wear a badge, because their culture has taught them to hate you. People will kill you because you wear a certain kind of tennis shoe, because your hat is red, because there's money in the till of your business, because they not only want the crack, but to keep the money too. Partner, Vietnam was nothing. Let me take you to a couple of neighborhoods here where I work. Let me push you out the door and see how many blocks you get. Welcome to America. You scream bloody murder about how we're killing our boys overseas. So tell me, without looking it up... how many police officers died in the line of duty last year? How many firefighters? Where's your righteous indignation for them? What ever happened to that pathetic liberal montra; think globally, act locally? I've got an idea, how about you don't just say it, but you do it. Or is the whole purpose simply just to make yourself feel holier, smugger, better? Well? Do you? Good Lord, the only place for a respectable liberal to find the answers to Bush's hell is in the mirror, am I right? If only the other 6 billion of us could just be like you. There's your heaven. You could turn your back on a bully on the play ground and not get beat up. You could turn your back on the liquor store robber and he'd simply walk out the door without shooting. Low rider Impala approaching with a couple of AK's hanging out the window? Turn your back and they cruise right on by. Idealism. So what's your plan? Tell them they're victims and admit everything is your fault? Man, have I got stories for you.

Anyway, you're getting boring. I don't know where you live or what you do for a living, but I've gotta tell you that my whole life seems to be in direct contrast to the ivory tower of idealism from whence you seem sit in judgement. We don't need God; we've got you. I can tell you first hand about those who won't fight, about how the strong rule both day and night, while the pacifists sit in their homes, waiting to hit the deck at the first "pop" they hear. Maybe they're idealists too, or maybe they understand all too well that there are only two ways to respond when threatened; either purging the threat through strength, or going full on fetal and hoping they only reach for your wallet. You know somebody who got killed? Big deal! Try being the first one to treat them.

So how's the view from up there, anyway?

GaryD - Did you actually go to the site? There are literally hundreds of quotations. I don't see how you could call that cherry-picking. There is a generous amount of information there. Do you mean that the quotations are inaccurate? Because I will admit that I haven't verified them. He cites his sources though and they are all legitimate.

We could have a long conversation about exactly what influenced Hitler. I certainly see the pagan and pan-German elements that you refer to but the reality is that he talked publicly about his Christian faith at length. He just didn't like the Catholic Church. He loved Martin Luther and the Nazis went so far as to create their own protestant sect. They called it Positive Christianity. It basically took whatever parts of the bible it found convenient and discarded the rest (just like every other protestant sect does). Like it or not, Christianity played a leading (if not exclusive) role in the development of National Socialism.

Compare that to GWB. I see his insistence on the use of torture as decidedly "unchristian." he too has spoken publicly about his faith at length and I have no doubt that HE believes that he is a Christian. Then I look back on the "unchristian" behavior of AH. Do I really know what motivated Hitler? No. I wasn't there and I didn't know him. But through their public words, I think that both of them BELIEVED that they were Christian. Actions however, speak louder than words. I will refer you to Matthew 7:16: "By their fruits, ye shall know them."

GaryD - Did you actually go to the site? There are literally hundreds of quotations. I don't see how you could call that cherry-picking. There is a generous amount of information there. Do you mean that the quotations are inaccurate? Because I will admit that I haven't verified them. He cites his sources though and they are all legitimate.

We could have a long conversation about exactly what influenced Hitler. I certainly see the pagan and pan-German elements that you refer to but the reality is that he talked publicly about his Christian faith at length. He just didn't like the Catholic Church. He loved Martin Luther and the Nazis went so far as to create their own protestant sect. They called it Positive Christianity. It basically took whatever parts of the bible it found convenient and discarded the rest (just like every other protestant sect does). Like it or not, Christianity played a leading (if not exclusive) role in the development of National Socialism.

Compare that to GWB. I see his insistence on the use of torture as decidedly "unchristian." he too has spoken publicly about his faith at length and I have no doubt that HE believes that he is a Christian. Then I look back on the "unchristian" behavior of AH. Do I really know what motivated Hitler? No. I wasn't there and I didn't know him. But through their public words, I think that both of them BELIEVED that they were Christian. Actions however, speak louder than words. I will refer you to Matthew 7:16: "By their fruits, ye shall know them."

Like it or not, Christianity played a leading (if not exclusive) role in the development of National Socialism.

Or, as I said before on Christian ideas of 'sin' and war:

"before I have to go raising moral objections, you'd expect the 'God-ordained' to at least get the politics and strategy right. Instead of starting with their fuzzy morals and calling it 'faith' when they randomly hope the gunfire works out."

This is what we're left with, ennit?

I mean, it seems that's really what it's about, isn't it? "talking-to-God" neocon moves that only profit certain friends of Bush and Cheney...

Went. And. Broke. Things.

Yeah, Saddam was bad, ...he was a US-sponsored puppet who, *surprise, surprise* got out of control... (see smiling pics of him with Rumsfeld)

But the Right in America was led down a garden path about a 'God-ordained' war which, in fact, *was a stupid move.* They had *no plan.*

There's no un-stupiding that.*

FUBAR.

They were warned. They flipped off the world and did it anyway.

What now.

It's very possible that the scenario this screwup has generated actually leaves no good options for our military presence there.

Sorry... Should have thought it through, but it's too late now. And it won't necessarily *help* to leave our boys there, ...unless you're determined to vindicated Bush's 'divinely-ordained,' lying-to-Congress-justified, and evangelically-supported *screwup.*

The situation exists.

If there's a reason for American troops to hang out there, someone better make a case for it.

"Preventive war was the invention of Hitler. I would not even listen seriously to anyone who spoke of such a thing."

--Dwight Eisenhower

"Preventive war is like committing suicide for fear of dying."

--Otto von Bismarck

"However, I'm a little curious about your inference "we need to get out of Iraq". Of course we need to do something that ends with us out of Iraq. But, please give us your thoughts on how we should go about our exit now that we've already caused the infrastructure and organization of Iraq to crumble. What responsibility do we have to held these people rebuild?"

I think we have to admit that that went out the window with 'The war will pay for itself.'

The question now is not, 'What does leaving mean in terms of vindicating Bush's 'God-guided crusade,' but...

Seriously. What good will staying do copared to leaving?

Pottery Barn.

We broke it. Now there's a question of all the 'King's horses' and all the 'King's Men.'

Whatever the right thing to do is, stubbornly exacerbating a screwup is not it.

Nick I've seen it before and been presented with it on dozens of occasions. It is one of the worst bits of cherry picking extant on the subject. Sorry but that is the truth.

I don't think it has anything to do with faith.

It began with, as you write, smugness and greed.

But then came the blood. If greed had then been satisfied the blood would soon be forgotten. But there is just blood.

Now you get fear of God. So how do you think? Just like President Bush stated: I know they think of me as a war monger, but I view myself as a peacemaker.

I don't think it has anything to do with faith.

It began with, as you write, smugness and greed.

But then came the blood. If greed had then been satisfied the blood would soon be forgotten. But there is just blood.

Now you get fear of God. So how do you think? Just like President Bush stated: I know they think of me as a war monger, but I view myself as a peacemaker.

GaryD - I don't think I ever said that the Crusades were the beginning of the "war with Islam." I was just pointing out a couple of the low points of Christian history.

As for my "overwhelmingly absurd" point about Hitler's faith, try this link:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

It gives some examples of the religious rhetoric which filled his speeches. If his value system and actions don't look Christian to you, I think that proves my point. HE thought he was a Christian and that he was doing god's work. Just like GWB, David Koresh, the inquisitors, the crusaders, the KKK etc, etc, etc. Any idiot can claim that he is a Christian and find something in the bible to justify himself, but that doesn't make him "Christian."

It seems only fair to let our kids and grandkids decide whether or not the Iraq War has been worth it...since they'll be the ones paying for it.

R J - Am I angry? Yep. Illegal surveillance pisses me off. GWB having people tortured pisses me off. Invading a country that did nothing to us pisses me off. Watching people die (including my nephew's best friend) in the name of god pisses me off. You wonder why liberals are so angry? It's because we see the damage that zealots like you have caused throughout the ages and even up to the present day. It's because we see your idiotic mistakes (like going into Iraq) before they happen and are powerless to stop them because our elected representatives are either liars (Cheney/GWB) or cowards (every democrat in congress). It's because we see you trying to start World War III - a holy war between Christianity and Islam for world domination, when our (liberals I mean) goal is merely to try to get everyone to coexist peacefully. It's because people like you mock us for wanting to coexist peacefully with our global neighbors. It's because when we debate people like you, your argument always boils down to one "irrefutable" point: faith. Not logic, not experience, not reason, not intellect, but faith. And there is nothing more frustrating than having to give credence to someone when their entire argument is: Trust me, I know I am right. How can you argue with that? Yes, these things make me angry. So now I have to ask you, if watching people die for no good reason doesn't make you mad, then what does? Anything? Oh yes, liberals like me make you mad (or at least irritate you I suppose since apparently you are above anger). Compare those two value systems please. I am mad because a messianic half-wit has slaughtered thousands of people in my country's name. You are irritated at me because I am mad about it. Which is a more "Christian" attitude?

Now... Vietnam. Finally we get to an actual argument. First, going into Vietnam was just as stupid as going into Iraq and liberals were primarily responsible. I acknowledge that. But the decisions to go in and then to escalate were made primarily out of fear of being labeled "soft" on communism (i.e. pressure from the right). Think of LBJ saying, "I will not be the first American president to lose a war." Anti-communism, McCarthyism, LBJ's pride and domestic political considerations were the motivations for that war, NOT liberalism. Liberal politicians made the ultimate decisions, but in doing so, they were betraying liberalism, not fulfilling its tenets.

Second, the treatment of our troops (e.g. calling them baby-killers) when they returned was an abomination. Especially considering that such a large percentage were draftees. The respect that we show our troops now is much more in line with the sacrifices we ask of them. And I am thankful that I have never had to serve. I am thankful that people like my grandfathers had the balls to stand up to Hitler. I am thankful that I live in such a wonderful country. But going into Vietnam and Iraq has NOT made us safer. Just because our troops have served valiantly in the past does not mean that every war our presidents foist upon us is a good idea. Nor do our soldiers have a monopoly on patriotism or common sense. If there actually were another Hitler, I would be the first man to sign up. But there isn't. Ho Chi Minh wasn't Hitler and nor was Saddam. I am not mad at the troops. I am mad at the idiot politicians who so carelessly throw away their lives for ideology or because they are unwilling to admit a mistake.

Third, if you believe that the North Vietnamese were about to sue for peace, then I have a bridge to sell you. Was Tet a military failure for them? Yes, unquestionably. Was it a POLITICAL success? Yes. Losing 50,000 men for them was a drop in the bucket. They had 200,000 men per year becoming eligible for military service. The idea that they were hard up for men is ludicrous. But it was after Tet that Cronkite declared the war unwinnable. Public opinion in the United States was effected. And that is fundamentally what you (or our president for that matter) don't seem to understand - Vietnam was NOT a military conflict. It was a political one. And yes, there is a difference. That is why a nation that could never stand up to us in a head-to-head confrontation kicked our asses out of their country. The military aspect is incidental. They beat us politically. Iraq is the same way. We lost the instant American boots hit the ground. It is just a matter of time now. Don't give me any "surge" crap either. I recently read an article where a member of Syrian intelligence said (more or less) "This will be known as the era of deception." They have toned things down because they know that we do not have the political will for a long term struggle. And I do not think that this "pessimism" is unpatriotic. I have examined the situation rationally and have found our strategy flawed (although non-existent might be closer to the mark).

So I will make you a deal...I will "take a breath, grab a nice hot shower, put on some sweats, park myself in my favorite chair and thank god," if (and ONLY if) you and every other evangelical Christian in this country decides to leave governance to those of us willing to apply rationality and pragmatism (and ONLY rationality and pragmatism) to our nation's problems. Until that time, I will fight you with every fiber of my being. And I will do so enraged and with contempt for you and your "god."

Sorry the Crusades were not the beginning of the war with Islam even then. If you knew anything about the period in question during the time frame from 650 AD to 1000AD you'd know that.

The Notion that the Nazis were Christian is so overwhelmingly absurd as to scarce need rebuttal. Any one who has studied the Nazis and has more than the most cursory knowledge of Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' should know that Hitler was at Best a Pseudo Pagan with an abiding loathing for Christianity which he considered as a sap on the Character and willingness of his German Master race to do what he felt they needed to do to assume their rightful place in the world.

"This kind of overwhelming self-love that defines the sin of pride has its roots in a lack of trust in God. It is, in short, the very essence of unbelief in a religious sense."

I'm sorry but this is whimsical theological nonsense.
As if to say, "if only we'd all trusted God more..."

As far as I can stretch it, I can't see "unbelief" as being in any way related to the consuming, endless war in Iraq. We "believed" our leaders, as countless times we were told "without doubt" that there were WMDs. Testimony after testimony from prior administration and cabinet members has revealed that this administration was dead-set on an Iraq invasion from practically day-one after inauguration (read "The Price of Loyalty" by Suskind, or any number of relevant books.)

"Belief" had everything also to do with GWB's appeal to his "higher father." There is more "belief" staffing the white house and administrative support than who-knows-when--much from good 'ol Pat Robertson's Regency University law school grads who are more than willing to share the "belief."

Cognitive dissonance has ruled the slippery slope of this administration and this Iraq war and it's supporters from it's WMD beginning through it's "freeing Iraqis" to it's "spreading democracy," and only subsequently now to its oil price deals with the good old USA. We have modified our collective "belief" so many times, as David Eveld exemplifies perfectly in his post--that pretty soon we'll have to invent some other moving-target guiding principal for "war on terror."

"Unbelief" as the root of the problem? Please give me a break. Our ongoing delimmas having "...its roots in a lack of trust in God.."? Oh my gosh. I guess it's like the good book says, we unbelievers are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Never in political power, but always the cause of the problem!

Dr. Brooks Thistlethwaite,

I agree with your assessment about the reasons we invaded Iraq. I would go a step further, and claim it is this same unseemly pridefulness that cause us to install the type of leader who would do this. All of the actions taken by our leaders in the White House, from the massive increases in federal debt, to the failures following the disaster in New Orleans, to the "revile your neighbor" political atmosphere, have been a result of hubris and overbearing pride.

However, I'm a little curious about your inference "we need to get out of Iraq". Of course we need to do something that ends with us out of Iraq. But, please give us your thoughts on how we should go about our exit now that we've already caused the infrastructure and organization of Iraq to crumble. What responsibility do we have to held these people rebuild?

Thank you,
Jim Grefer

I'll also note that I pretty much said what I had to say about 'sin' at 6:36 PM. I know general chaos ensues, but... it's not about a fricking car.

Even if the Religious Right may say the 'Sinful Left' is somehow trying to emasculate people by suggesting that overpowered cars that can fall in the river when underfunded infrastructure and gas-guzzler subsidies result in overcrowded roads that drop into rivers.... well.

How about... you let me and my same-sex sweetie have the rights to property and equal protection under the law that you take for granted... and you can burn all the gas you want on the way to the gun shop, and we take a realistic look at our corporately-devastated and near-totally-outsourced industrial and transportation infrastructure tomorrow? :)

"Do you drive a volvo with one of those silly "coexist" stickers spelled out with different religious symbols?"

Coexistence aside,

Do you have some kind of Volvo damage?

Cause if American companies keep refusing to make a practical station wagon while insisting we all want SUVs, (Like American corporations didn't buy out all these European firms and outsource the jobs anyway) ...complaining about practical regulation while spending billions to market impractical products...)

Well, sorry, looks like I'd want a Volvo if I drove that much.

If a sticker that says 'Coexist' on one of those *really* incenses you, I submit that may just be the *exact* reason the American car industry is hell-bent on re-experiencing the energy crisis of the late Seventies.

I mean, come on. Once is a mistake. Twice is just denying reality.

Beldar, your comments about the No-Fly Zone are correct, nonetheless, "the undisputed, indisputable fact" is that Iraq was not a threat to the United States and our invasion and
occupation was unjustified and unwise.

Dave Kerr

This Christian reverend trying to 'justify' American carnage by talking about sin and pride is a joke. As if America is human being with a conciousness of its own and with the ability to measure the paradox of good and evil.

If anything this reverend proves how dangerous and deranged America really is. Any nation which truly believes that 'pride goes before the fall' applies to itself in case of Phyrric victories, occupation, mass carnage, invasion, torture, concentration camps, and war at large is trying justify the dark deeds and crimes that it is wholesale responsible for.

America needs no reverend trying to save its soul by muttering insights into the moral theology of its existentialist pipe dreams; what America needs is what is has coming to it all along: More war, more destruction, more despair!

It's the only proven way you are going to learn.

The Bush Administration did indeed lie to the American public on the entire issue of Iraq. Our war there is against international law, and against any moral or ethical standard.

Our conduct of the occupation of Iraq, and the "War on Terror" has placed the government of the United States of America as the preeminent terrorist organization in the world.

Between secret rendition sites and Guantanamo Bay, the U.S. has the equivalent of the old Soviet Gulag and Hanoi Hilton.

The Bush Administration has done its best to turn all of our foreign friends against us. What happens to the United States if the rest of the world gets tired of our posturing and belligerence and unites against us? Rome got sacked by the Vandals, what of the U.S.? Alas Babylon!

Sorry to bug you again, Nick, but I really did mean dribble... as in spit going down the side of an incoherent liberals mouth.

"Do you really think that any country under the threat of invasion will keep their weapons in the country?"

I think the stupidity of that comment speaks for itself.

Saddam had no WMDs and the administration knew he had no WMDs. That was why Bush predicted before the invasion that "there will be no casualties."

The war was sold on the basis of lies. Period.

Hi Nick... good to hear from you again. I hope you don't mind my mention of your palpable anger, seemingly unleashed on myself by one who would maybe otherwise proclaim his righteous stand for love, tolerance, and understanding. Are you open minded, Nick? Are you a free thinker? Do you drive a volvo with one of those silly "coexist" stickers spelled out with different religious symbols? Here's one difference between you and me, Nick; you are not a lightning rod for my hate and fury. In fact, I applaude you on your self proclaimed accomplishments. I hope they're true. But, man, you need a therapist or a pill or something. I'd say the bible, but then you've already missed that point completely. Thanks for proving it so willingly. Would it be fair for me to "fire" on you for the well documented failures of liberals with regards to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory? Like Tet, when North Vietnam took its last, desperate gamble and lost. They were preparing to sue for peace when the "open minded free thinkers" of our spoiled little nation began their radical protests and Cronkite declared the war was unwinable. Hey, don't believe me. Look up Vo Nguyen Giap, the NVA leader who is well published on the subject. 10,000 casualties turned into well over 50,000, and after we left, literally millions of civilians were killed at the hands of the communists. Shoud I blame you, Nick? Is it your fault because of something other people did 40 years ago? Of course not. There's a wonderful saying for walking paradoxes like you, Nick, and it comes from none other than Christopher Titus. His words; get off the cross, take the wood, build a bridge, and get over yourself. Okay, I paraphrased a little. Just know that, since we're sharing credentials, I was on the other side. I was the guy taking the hits as a "baby killer", although I can't remember ever taking part in such an exercise. My life since then has been a dedication to the public werlfare as well, with a couple of close calls thrown in for emphasis. And, whether qualified and appreciated or not, my advice to you is to take a breath, grab a nice hot shower, put on some sweats, park yourself in your favorite chair and try to thank the God you seem to have great difficulty in finding. Thank Him that you never had to go over there. Thank Him that others went for you. Thank Him that you have the right to believe or refuse to believe in anything you want. Many will be called, few will be chosen. Just get everything you can out of this planet in the time alloted.

Define the nature of God?
Define sin?
Maybe I'm going to hell, but...?

Please!!!

Go ahead, quote all the philosophers you want, the more syllables the better. Just kill the assumptions, will ya? Miss Cleo was far more accurate than you are, and she's in prison.

Any true pride behind this war and it would have been wrapped up in two years, not mired as it is. This is orchestrated chaos.

Amen

Also, I just have to dispute this:

"By giving life a false center, the self then destroys the real possibility for itself and others. Hence the relation of injustice to pride. . . . The sin of inordinate self-love thus points to the prior sin of lack of trust in God. . . . The anxiety of freedom leads to sin only if the prior situation of unbelief is assumed.”"

I think you have to have the prior assumption that 'unbelief' or self-love *means* lack of trust in the Divine:

...basically you have to figure that both the love of humans and of Gods are *finite:* That one must take away from the other. Zero-sum.

Love ain't like that. It's a *capacity,* not a *thing.*

Which is always why I observe to Christians who say, "Only my book says you must love your neighbor as you love yourself," ..."But... you *hate* yourself. Don't treat me like *that... That would be terrible. I happen to know.*"

"This kind of overwhelming self-love that defines the sin of pride has its roots in a lack of trust in God. It is, in short, the very essence of unbelief in a religious sense."

Pride, I would say, is not *self-love.* Pride is... *self-expectation.* One who truly loves herself would not make 'prideful' demands of herself in order to fill some sense of 'deficiency.'

Love is patient, love is kind. 'Self-love' is *not* 'The Sin Of Pride.'

Or: What prideful people do to themselves is *not* 'Love.'

It's something else.

Speaking of things my Gods taught me. :)

President George W. Bush appealed to a "higher father" in planning the war in Iraq -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17347-2004Apr16.html

As a result of the war, Iraq's Christian population is shrinking and under attack - http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/12/25/iraqs_christian_population_shrinking/2316/

If only George W had listened to his natural father in instead of his "higher father".

R J - Your points are irrefutable? You don't have a single point based on reason, intellect, or even common sense (except perhaps your point about these forums being speculative dribble. btw - I think you meant drivel.) I notice that you didn't produce any evidence other than your bible. Not only have I read the kjv in its entirety, I have a master's degree in history. People like you (and by that I mean religious zealots) have been responsible for the majority of those wars that you mentioned. What do the Nazis, the KKK, the Spanish inquisition and the Crusades have in common? They are all of Christian origin. What do you think Hitler was trying to establish? A worldwide, Aryan, Christian empire. Let me try to make this clear to you - the bible is NOT everything. Here is a small taste of the idiocy (I only have a Gideon version handy...wait a minute, different versions of the unalterable word of god? Gosh, weird, huh?):

"He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:17
"You may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you." Lev. 25:44
"If two men are struggling together and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand." Deut. 25:11
"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
"If a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him." 1 Cor. 11:14 (This one is awesome considering Jesus is always portrayed as having long hair.)

And these are just some of my favorites off the top of my head. I have no problem with people of faith as long as they keep it to themselves, but once you bring it into the public sphere (i.e. trying to influence foreign policy or posting on a website) you become fair game. Here is MY suggestion: read something BESIDES the bible. The bible is fine for pithy, allegorical morality tales, but to believe in its complete infallibility is moronic. Sorry, am I using too many big words?

And lastly: Change the nature of god? It is extraordinary arrogance to assume that you know the nature of god. There are hundreds of millions of people who believe that god looks nothing like you imagine him to be. But we should listen to you, because, unlike all those other people, you are right? I don't think so. Your only response to my criticism was to tell me to go read the bible. Well I have. And my contempt for zealots continues unabated.

Is my contempt for you unattractive? Probably. Am I going to hell for it? Maybe. But I am not the one who is bending over backwards to justify killing and torturing innocent people in the name of a vengeful god. Keep your church out of my government.

A one word summary of your comment Reverend would be nonsense.

"This kind of prideful behavior is not only a political and strategic error, it is a fundamental faith error."

True, but before I have to go raising moral objections, you'd expect the 'God-ordained' to at least get the politics and strategy right. Instead of starting with their fuzzy morals and calling it 'faith' when they randomly hope the gunfire works out.

Ask any of the hundreds of American pilots who were enforcing the "No-Fly Zone" over Iraq -- to which Iraq had agreed under the armistice that ended the first Gulf War -- whether "Iraq had not attacked us first." The undisputed, indisputable fact -- one the good Reverend here either doesn't know or won't acknowledge -- is that throughout the last several years of Saddam's reign, his military's anti-aircraft defenses did their dead level best to try to shoot down American aircraft. There were literally hundreds of such occasions; each one of them was not only a violation of the armistice, but an independent act of war by the Iraqi government that, in previous decades, any American government would have responded to with a declaration of war (or rather, a declaration recognizing that war had been declared upon us).

That no American aircraft or pilots were lost is a tribute to their professionalism and in no way diminishes the blood-thirsty intentions of the Iraqi anti-aircraft gunners and missile launchers. But this entire charade -- peaceful, fun-loving Saddam and his cheerful, patriotic sons -- is the kind of thing that only idiots can believe in.

Ask any of the hundreds of American pilots who were enforcing the "No-Fly Zone" over Iraq -- to which Iraq had agreed under the armistice that ended the first Gulf War -- whether "Iraq had not attacked us first." The undisputed, indisputable fact -- one the good Reverend here either doesn't know or won't acknowledge -- is that throughout the last several years of Saddam's reign, his military's anti-aircraft defenses did their dead level best to try to shoot down American aircraft. There were literally hundreds of such occasions; each one of them was not only a violation of the armistice, but an independent act of war by the Iraqi government that, in previous decades, any American government would have responded to with a declaration of war (or rather, a declaration recognizing that war had been declared upon us).

That no American aircraft or pilots were lost is a tribute to their professionalism and in no way diminishes the blood-thirsty intentions of the Iraqi anti-aircraft gunners and missile launchers. But this entire charade -- peaceful, fun-loving Saddam and his cheerful, patriotic sons -- is the kind of thing that only idiots can believe in.

Were Jesus efforts to rid the temple of moneymakers preemptive? No. The moneymakers were dispicable in their use of a sacred place. In a sense, this is how US politicians felt about Saddam Hussein, justifying action against such a leader. However, subsequent motives have emerged that were probably much more compelling, e.g., George did not want despicable people controlling his oil, and terrorists in foreign countries were threatening the authority of the ruling class in many countries besides the US. Even these could have been used as valid justifications for action. What was prideful about our leaders' behavior is that they believed they could lie about the reasons for their behavior, and, even if we found out about it, it did not matter.

I remember when preventive medecine was a hotly debated subject too.
Then we made conspiracy to commit a crime, a crime in itself.
We have all grown to understand the wisdom in those two courses of action.
We will also learn to understand that we can no longer allow an enemy to make the first attack.
We let bin Laden make his attack, in spite of his many threats to do so, because we believed that he was incapable of making good on his threats.
Saddam had the wealth of a nation at his command to use if he he decided to make good on his threats against America. We ignored one enemy's threats and suffered the consequences. We could not wait and risk another instance of such damage from an ininitely more powerful enemy.
Susan Brooks needs to look into her pride of authorship. That sin of hers and others like her has and is giving strenth and hope to our enemy.

So where did these chemical weapons come from?

And what do you think Sadaam was doing the 2 months notice we gave him that we are planning on invading? Do you think he was partying or do you think he was getting those weapons OUT of Iraq before the invasion to make us look like idiots? Do you really think that any country under the threat of invasion will keep their weapons in the country? And what about backwards, evil dictators? Do you think they are not smart and can outfox you?

Come on Mr. and Mrs. Elite. I thought you were so brilliant!! To solve this, next time the US invades any country, we should not open our big fat mouth's and tell the whole world we are going to do that. That way, we catch them off guard and then it is more likely that we will catch them with their pants down.

Mr. and Mrs. Elitist just want power and they are politicizing this issue to grab power. That is clear.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/jordan.terror/

There is still hope for Iraq and the people of Iraq.

Lots of innocent blood was shed at the hands of barbarians! We all need to be good neighbors and help rebuild Iraq and stop these blood thirsty criminals who twist there doctrine to there own destruction. Bin Laden is as evil as evil comes.

My heart goes out to all the young service men and women serving our beloved country. And my heart goes out to the suffering Iraqi’s! I hope that one day all Iraq can live as good as we do and that day will hopefully soon be realized.

May Jesus wipe away every tear and bring joy to those suffering around the world.

I have to say greed is the most harmful to my society, Earth.

I am sad that my nation continues it's animal-like behavior and continues to go down the path of all failed empires by fighting wars to
control the distribution of natural and human resources. This has created fanatics who will do anything to break our hold on power.
We must die to this animal-self and become born again...following the lead of so many worthy prophets...on a nation-wide scale.

We must begin to distribute the human and natural resources more evenly amoung the nations of the world and inspire humanity with this incredible reality of the universe contemplating itself.

Or we will die someday by the stockpile of genocide weapons.

I totally agree with the author's perspective on America in regards to this war with Iraq. I believe America is intoxicated and heavily so. Intoxicated with power, wealth, and pride. Combine this with the most powerful war machine ever devised by humankind and here we are acting as badly as the terrorists we are supposedly eliminating.
Sober up, America.

Shucks! Did I say "loveless" mansion...? I meant to say "pride filled" mansion... instead. Of course it's overflowing with love, the love of Lucifer that comes from faith.

Nick... nice to know that I've somehow proven a point for you, just as you have done for me. You see, the point to everything I have said is based on scriptural history, as well as prophecy. So how do I define evil? With biblical instruction. You see, Nick, it's not about me. It's about the fact that the bible, which is everything I believe, is my teacher. It's not humanity, it's not secularism, it's not with any faith in man whatsoever. Man is not the answer. Man is the problem. And we've been killing each other since the dawn of man; internationally, regionally, locally, and individually. Once again, my points are irrefutable, and you don't even need a bible. Turn on the news or read a history book. There have always been, and will always be, wars and rumors of wars. If you know and believe in the bible, you'll know where that came from. You'll also know that all this mindless, speculative dribble amounts to zero. There will be no heaven on earth as long as evil is unchecked. For a further definition of evil, get off the net and into your KJV. Or, if you think you can, go ahead and change the nature of God. I dare you.

Absolutely correct. Pride is the culprit.

Have you seen those SUV adds intended to stimulate pride? Are you familiar with that tried and true real estate expression "pride of ownership?" No doubt about it, pride is behind the attack on Iraq, the attack on the WTC and prided can be used as a precursor to explain all our ills.

We're in Iraq for three reasons, O, I, and L. We must have all three else the pride in one's gas guzzling SUV, Hummer, Corvette, Mercedes Benz etc will be turned into false pride as they are dragged down the street by real horses -to that loveless mansions on the hill, capitol hill.

Thank God evangelicals are never proud of anything. That must come from the quality of their Gods, Jehovah AKA YEWHEW, Trinity God and Allah. Kinda puny, sissified even -can't do anything without help from people -even get His chosen people out of bondage in Egypt.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul has the story of the origin of the Gods of all three great evangelical faiths. Anyone that would settle for a fallen angel for a God must be totally void in pride. Don't you think?

This author asks in her opening that stupidity be added to the list of deadly sins.

After reading this pablum, I offer a word of caution: be careful what you ask for. This self-indulgent rambling might very well put you at the top of that list.

This is not an evaluation of a political and military action through the lens of faith, it is using the term "faith" as an excuse to justify a pre-conceived conclusion, namely opposition to that action. I would call it specious reasoning, except that it is too much of a compliment to call it reasoning at all.

Nice try, though.

This author asks in her opening that stupidity be added to the list of deadly sins.

After reading this pablum, I offer a word of caution: be careful what you ask for. This self-indulgent rambling might very well put you at the top of that list.

This is not an evaluation of a political and military action through the lens of faith, it is using the term "faith" as an excuse to justify a pre-conceived conclusion, namely opposition to that action. I would call it specious reasoning, except that it is too much of a compliment to call it reasoning at all.

Nice try, though.

This author asks in her opening that stupidity be added to the list of deadly sins.

After reading this pablum, I offer a word of caution: be careful what you ask for. This self-indulgent rambling might very well put you at the top of that list.

This is not an evaluation of a political and military action through the lens of faith, it is using the term "faith" as an excuse to justify a pre-conceived conclusion, namely opposition to that action. I would call it specious reasoning, except that it is too much of a compliment to call it reasoning at all.

Nice try, though.

I am a practicing Catholic but I support Bush and trust his motives for going to war in Iraq. Pride did not drive us to this war. That argument is absurdly simplistic. If you dismiss Bush as stupid and dishonest, then you can adopt such simple explanations for the war.

We went to war for the oft-stated and obvious national security reasons which I supported and still support, i.e. Saddam's repeated violations of the UN resolutions, evidence that Saddam had WMD's (since proven to be incorrect), the very real and present dangers of terrorists (evidenced quite clearly by 9-11), a desire to be on the offensive in the war on terror, and a desire to redirect the path of the Middle East away from Islamic extremism.

That said, I have reservations about a preemptive war both for theological and political reasons. I will not even dare to wade into theological discussions. Politically speaking, one of the most important elements in going to war, staying the course, and winning the war is public support. In a preemptive war (i.e. if we are not responding to a direct attack), the will of the people will quickly erode unless victory is quick and relatively painless. The Iraq War has been neither.

However, the Iraq War may yield significant long term benefits to U.S. security. It appears that Iraq may indeed continue to develop into a democratic nation. By our actions, we may have significantly redirected the path of the Middle East away from Islamo-fascism. That remains to be seen, of course.

What is more remarkable to me is that our soldiers are now fighting side by side with our former enemies (the Sunnis) against the radical Islamic elements (Al Quaeda). Iraqis who were fighting Americans to drive us out of their country (understandably so) are now fighting with us to drive Al Quaeda out. The atrocities of Al Quaeda in Iraq have demonstrated clearly to Iraqis that Al Quaeda and its brand of Islamic extremism are intrinsically evil, and Iraqis have turned completely on Al Quaeda.

Our partnership with Iraqis against Al Quaeda, to me, is a very significant step in winning the war on terror, and it would not have happened but for our going on the offensive in the war on terror by going into Iraq.

The U.S. cannot defeat Islamic terrorism alone. We are going to have to fight side by side with moderate Muslims against Muslim extremists. That process is underway in Iraq, and I hope we continue build on it. We will get out of Iraq. However, we should stay as long as Iraqis want us to remain and fight to stabilize their country and fight with them against Islamic extremists.

Interesting article, although I must disagree (especially with the last parts). The U.S. is a country built on capitalism. Everything in the U.S. is a commodity, even the health of it's citizens. The U.S. invasion of Iraq was for money. Full stop. That the goverment thought they would be able to pull it off is due to pride.

The U.S. could have gone into Africa to attack...I mean, liberate...all sorts of countries there...except there's more money to be made in Iraq, and it was easier to sell it to American citizens. I mean, Osama's an arab Muslim, Saddam was an arab Muslim...what could be an easier sale than that?! It would be laughable...except it worked.

ZZIM, great remarks that point out that Ms. Thistlethwaite is most like the very prideful person she accuses Bush of being. She certainly comes across this way when she makes statements like she does above. She is also getting redundant as no matter what the theological question that is asked on WOPO she rants about Iraq and Bush. It is silly. I would guess that she has nothing to say that is theologically interesting or significant. We get it Ms. Thistlethwaite, you are against the war in Iraq and you dislike Bush. Big deal, so do millions of other people but most of the don't do it from the position of religious pride.

I think your description of the sins this country is guilty of is way too mild. Precisely how one would describe the villainy of a president who connived and conspired to cover up his involvement in 9-11? Treason seems too lenient. Yet the American people have steadfastly rejected what common sense demands, that the Official Lie about 9-11 is a betrayal of biblical proportions. Iraq, Plavegate, everything else, stems from this massive deception on Bush's part. Yes, I am a confirmed believer that Bush has lied about 9-11 and that the Report he had written is nothing more than a tissue of lies, half-truths and startling ommissions. Does that mean I know who was behind it? No, only that what we were told is false, and the American people have no interest in the truth, only in shedding more blood. Like the Babylonian king whose empire was collapsing around him, the handwriting is on the wall, and we have been found wanting.

It is not only pride that justified this evil war on Iraqies, it is prejudice, averice, revenge and ignorance. George W and his supporters do not give a darn about Iraqies or all the atrocities committed against them by their dictator Saddam and his minions. They purposely confused the majority of our ignorant citizens to initially allow them to attack Iraqies, kill hundreds of thousands of them all in the name of security of our nation. Iraq and Iraqies never constituted even a distant threat against our nation. The war against Iraqies is a diversion to get revenge from innocent Moslems for the 19 crazy and evil Saudi and Gulf Moslems who committed the infamous acts of 9/11. If that was only the case, aren't hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian Iraqies killed and maimed enough!! And why attack Iraq instead of George W. bossom bodies the Saudies and the Gulf Moslems who nurtured this culture of terrorism. But this attack against Iraq is not only for revenge it is also for averice and the Iraq war is a just diversion for the connected borne again so called Christians in Washington to make billions of dollars out of our tax money. I wouldn't want to please the Moslem haters among those who post comments on this page by blaming Christianity on what borne again George W and his supporters are doing in Iraq because I know better. Take the oil out of this equation and any one with a pea size brain knows we will not be there even though the terrorists were supposedly of the Moslem faith.

So terribly true and so terribly sad. Hope the author has seen the Veterans for Peace publication, "ADDICTED TO WAR". Will we ever learn????????

Anonymous quotes his father approvingly with the 'hedge your bet' reason for believing in a deity; 'better to guess right than guess wrong,what have you got to lose', reason to have faith.
That kind of suspect belief would disqualify him for entry into the heaven of any respectable christian religion.

dartagnan: Does there really have to be WMDs? Is the Left so single-minded that they have three letters burned into their tiny brains to spat when they're accused of being willingly blind. Again more juvenile adherence to the tenets of Bush Derangement Syndrome.

Oh, and by the way, there has been about ten tons of chemical weapons found in Iraq - but I guess the nattering nabobs of negativity were too busy tittering amongst themselves to hear about that.

And lets talk about the terrorist training camp at Salman Pak - yes, I've heard your weak excuses dismissing that, too. Don't bother.

I'm not so crazy as to think I can engage the small-minded in their recitations of empty platitudes. Which, by the way, is all this author has done. Boob bait for the playground bullies.

I think the author's point is better taken as arguing that arrogance 'permitted','facilitated' us in getting into this folly in Iraq, not that it caused the invasion of Iraq. The cause for the invasion are complex.
But without arrogance to 'grease the skids', so to speak ,we would not have dared done what we did.

This very newspaper that gives you space was guilty of joining the Bush Band Wagon which was essentially an anti-Clinton sex escapde band wagon.

Instead thee press should have used their "freedom of the press" to closely examine Bush, his philosophy and his contrbutors. Birds of feather you know...

I agree with the author. I hold that the human species will not survive over others because it exhibits arrogance, and as the present situation proves , that arrogance will be the deadliest sin of all.

Steven. Get your head out of FOX'S ARSE. We have killed more Iraqis than Saddam and turned Iraq into a terrorist training ground for the thousands of new terrorist volunteers we created.

Suddam was a brutal b@st@rd if you got on his bad side, but was actually one of the most progressive mideastern rulers. His UN delegate was a Christian. Christians and Jews had liquor stores in downtown Baghdad. Women were given rights they don't have in the US yet. A majority of college professors were women, and Iraq had more engineers per capita than any nation in the world.

IRAQ IS NOW THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACE TO LIVE ON THIS PLANET, AND SHOWS LITTLE CHANCE OF IMPROVING REGARDLESS OF HOW LONG WE KEEP TROOPS THERE.

We have destroyed a nation to steal their oil but primarily because they began trading oil in Euro's. Iran has done the same thing so we are going to attack them next. That has been the plan since 1996 when PNAC TOOK OUT A FULL PAGE ADD IN THE NYT URGING PRESIDENT CLINTON TO DO IT.

The illegal invastion of Iraq has nothing to do with pride in our moral high ground or giving a flying fk about the iraqi people. This is about maintaining the US hegemony of the oil economy and money on the side for the Bush family fortune tide up in the Carlisle group.

Idiots like you are the reason these theives have gotten away with this instead of being hung as war criminals.

I would be interested to see her debate her colleague-across-the-street, Jean Elshtain, who is at the University of Chicago's Divinity School. While Brooks relies on Niebuhr, Elshtain draws more from Dietrich Bonhoeffer, as well as being an early supporter of the war (I do not know her current stance). Putting these two in a panel discussion on the war and the role of Christian ethics in engaging an enemy would be very worthwhile.

..."hubris or hybris from the Greek."

Did you put in this superfluous Greek lesson just to make sure that nobody would read your column today?

Cripes. Get to the point.

Jonn, where are those WMDs?

Dave, I couldn't agree with you more.

Reverend Thistlewaite, I am unsure what you mean by "1,600 years of Christian moral reasoning", Christianity hasn't had a 1,600 year run of peace and tolerance. Christian "morals" have often been spread forcefully and at the point of a weapon. You need to get off of your moral high horse and become more realistic. The best chance for humanity's survival is with a very liberal smattering of just about all points of view, no one group has it right!

Anonymous, it is very understandable why so many people rail against the religious. For the past 7 years we have had religion shoved down our throats by the religious right. The religions has influenced Supreme Court nominees, Federal Government hiring, laws, enforcement of laws and elections. The fact that there is a growing number of people pushing back in understandable and also a natural progression from the sharp turn our Country has taken.

A warm and friendly suggestion to bring this country back together. Keep religion a personal and private matter and most of all out of politics. Keep it out of our public schools and governmental bodies and I believe that we can become a more civil society. Rove and many members of the Republican light a fire that is threatening to consume us, let's call in the brave fire-fighters and put the fire out. Atheist's are not the problem, religious fanatics of all types are.

Yes, it was pride (among other things) that got us into this needless war, and it is mainly pride that is keeping us there. Those who want to withdraw from Iraq are accused of wanting to "surrender" instead of achieving "victory." Why must we have "victory" (whatever that may mean in this context)? Because ... because ... because ... well, because we're THE USA, gosh darn it, and THE USA IS NUMBER ONE! YEAH! It's an incredibly infantile attitude, but it is so deeply ingrained by the popular culture that no politician dares to challenge it.

I'd suggest that it's pretty safe for the author to sit back, long after the threat has dissipated, and claim there was no threat from Iraq. It's difficult to prove an event that won't happen now never would have otherwise. It's terribly juvenile and shortsighted.

But then, that's what we've come to expect from Bush Derangement Syndrome sufferers. No substance, just lots of empty words.

I agree with your analysis, but I think the problem of pride is even more engrained in our culture than the national pride/arrogance that led us into Iraq. In modern American culture (and other cultures as well, but start at home), I believe that the vice of pride is now viewed as a virtue, and the old virtures of humility and modesty are viewed as vices (or at least weaknesses/failures of the person). Watch any sports on TV, watch our television shows (Donald Trump, reality shows, etc.), it is self-promotion, boasting, and aggresiveness that get the attention and the glory; the humble or modest persons are either totally ignored, or "pitied" as losers. We have a serious cultural problem when our vices have become virtues. (And this is not, by the way, the cultural problem that the Christian right is focused on.)

If Bush truly believed that America was God's fave, he would unleash his U.S. military to free oppressed people everywhere. He is, instead, a practical businessman more concerned with the bottom line than a religious zealot concerned with freeing the oppressed of the Earth. He only uses the military might of the U.S. to free people in places that are strategically important, thus making him a nationalist, not some religious universalist. Of course it's good that Iraq was freed of Saddam Hussein, but sometimes, when the right thing is done for the wrong reason - thus making it morally difficult for potential allies to sign on - a greater evil is unleashed. By the way, I found Bishop Wenski's primary focus on the plight of Christians appalling. He is a poor Christian for not writing about the plight of all Iraqis, regardless of their faith.

I don't know much about theology, but I can spot a non-objective discussion a mile away. Iraq was run by a murderous dictator who gassed his own people. He is gone and we are trying to install a democracy while terrorists keep trying to kill us.

What do you know about global foreign policy that allows you to pontificate and say "Pride is why we are there?"

To me you are committing an act of Hubris by your criticism since you don't know anything about foreign policy, it seems, from the fact that you mention nothing about it.

"Saddam Hussein’s continued control over Iraq caused untold human suffering - about which you say nothing, so I assume that you also care nothing for it."

The suggestion that Bush and the oiligarchy to which he answers cares one iota about the untold human suffering of Muslims in an otherwise insignificant desert halfway around the world is belied by the fact that he cared not one whit for the Christians right here in our own country in New Orleans who suffer to this day, nor did he care to intervene in untold suffering of clearly more pressing status in Darfur. Bush does, however, see that his cronies are rewarded handsomely from the Treasury at every opportunity.

We know that Donald Rumsfeld delivered a gift of golden spurs on a velvet pillow to our then ally Saddam Hussein as we provided him with the very weapons he used to "gas his own people." I hadn't heard what epiphany changed his mind, save Hussein's aggressive moves on other oil supplies to which we believe we're entitled.

Rather, by any objective measure, the facts indicate that Bush has caused suffering in Iraq on a scale that surpasses its former dictator. The Iraqi people are nearly unanimously of the opinion that life was better under Hussein: imagine that! The few dissenters from that view are Ahmed Chalabi and Curveball and the rest of the puppet government.

And all of that suffering we've wrought was based on a string of lies, untruths, and half-truths that, sadly, are still uncritically regurgitated here. I think though, that, aside from the hardcore 20-some-percent myopic tribal allegiance crowd, America is past all that empty rhetoric. Witness the nearly 70% of us that want this illegal and immoral occupation brought to an end, a position that the right wing media still touts as "leftist."

But Ms. Thistlewaite, I'm here to say that this folly has nothing to do with pride; it has everything to do with greed.

And if religion has a part in it, to my reckoning, it's used as a political lubricant, enabling these Crusades against the heathen Muslim hoardes, all packaged for the consumption of an ignorant American population who can't tell one Muslim from another.

After all, in the view of the American Taliban, these Muslims haven't accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and are going straight to hell for it anyhow, so what's the problem with giving them a little hell on earth if it means Chevron and Exxon/Mobil can sell the spoils we've already paid for in blood and treasure back to us at record-setting profit levels? How many so-called Christians have I heard call for the use of nuclear weapons on Arab nations?

So, Ms. Thistlewaite, let's not chalk this disaster up to "lack of faith" when the role that faith plays in this disaster is to further it.

Hear, hear!

Too few religious people are crying out against the terrible crimes and misdeeds being done, largely, in their names!

Thank you!

ZZim wrote: " . . . Saddam supported terrorism throughout the world with money, rhetoric, and material aid including safe places to hide, train and recruit."

Dear ZZim,

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Your statement above is simply repeating the very same nonsense, almost verbatim, that was used prior to 2003 to get the US into Iraq in the first place. To date there are still no substantial facts to back up your regurgitation of these all too familiar and tired talking points. Don't expect this reality to change and remember . . . Just because you may believe it doesn't make it true.

I think that 'W' doesn't have the intellect of an earth worm crawling backwards. Just think we only have about 368 days of "Dub'l UU and Tricky Dick" left. Won't that be a glorious day!

Right On!

Reverend Thistlewaite:

What interesting way of looking at the world. Clergy have been twisting theology to fit their ideology since the beginning of time, and you are just more of the same.

Saddam Hussein’s continued control over Iraq caused untold human suffering - about which you say nothing, so I assume that you also care nothing for it.

Saddam Hussein’s Iraq represented a source of political instability which threatened international oil supplies. A disruption of these oil supplies could easily cause a global economic collapse, again causing untold human suffering. Mostly among the world’s poor. About which you care nothing.

Saddam supported terrorism throughout the world with money, rhetoric, and material aid including safe places to hide, train and recruit. Apparently the intentional slaughter of innocents by these evil men for political ends means nothing to you.

All that you care about is getting pats on the back from your fellow Bush-hating friends so that you can feel good about yourself.

I call you the prideful one.

I believe Bush's pride and those of his religious right followers goes beyond "not trusting God". Their pride has carried them one step further. They believe they are doing what God wants or directs them to do. They believe they have not only the full support of God, but are doing what God has willed them to do. They believe that America, not Israel, is God's chosen land, and we Americans are God's chosen people. That pride, I believe, is far worse than simply not trusting God.

R J - Your comments reinforce Ms. Brooks' point about arrogance. To assume that you know who or what is "evil" is not only the height of arrogance, but exactly the kind of overly simplistic reasoning that got us into the mess we currently find ourselves in. You have absolutely no historical perspective and apparently are blithely unaware of decades of our foreign policy mistakes which have alienated the Arab world (and please note that I do not think that these mistakes were made out of malice, they were made because we either did not care about or did not understand all the people these decisions would effect - see: the creation of the Israeli state). You say that "we are not the bad guys", and yet hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq have died at our hands. And why? Because we lost 3,500 on 9/11? So we go out and slaughter people whose only crime was to live under a psychopathic dictator? You think the way to combat "evil" is to kill people who posed no threat to us? Or is it OK to kill innocent people (as long as they aren't Christian) provided we get one really, really "evil" guy at the same time? Opposing the Iraq war and an incompetent foreign policy does not mean that I lack "strength and will," it means that I am using my brain rather than my balls. As Galileo said: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use."

Far right Republican conservatives is to Christianity, what Al Qaeda is to Islam. Along with arrogance, fundamentalism and greed is what brought us to war.

Posted on January 17, 2008 11:27

Charles Homme:
"Talk about blather. Anyone that believes in supreme beings, messiahs, and virginal births should shut their mouths about stupidity, arrogance, pride, and conceit."

As someone who has lost faith and found it over and over again, I could understand if your point was about naivety or ignorance. But to call those who believe in something bigger than money and power stupid, arrogant, proud and conceited is just wrong. sounds like you think you are better than those who have faith, and that makes you as arrogant as they come. While I understand many people's skepticism on religion, I also understand the faith in it. You know, my father has a saying about beliefs and faith that I happen to agree with now, even though when I was younger I never could. He said "It is better to believe in God and find out He does not exist, than to not believe and find out He does" Makes sense to me. And to a lot of others. Grow up and stop insulting people for their beliefs.

Nice article, well written and full of nonesense.

The posted comments only further convince me that our devout "believers" are dangerous, full of idiotic ideas, lies and rationales and that we would all be far better off as practicing atheists! And PLEASE TRY TO REMEMBER what atheiesm REALLY MEANS - a disbelief in THEISM not necessarily GOD. Try and wrap your "God-ly" minds around that one while you're at it.

Nice article, well written and full of nonesense.

The posted comments only further convince me that our devout "believers" are dangerous, full of idiotic ideas, lies and rationales and that we would all be far better off as practicing atheists! And PLEASE TRY TO REMEMBER what atheiesm REALLY MEANS - a disbelief in THEISM not necessarily GOD. Try and wrap your "God-ly" minds around that one while you're at it.

While I agree with the overall tone of the commentary that hubris is indeed a hazard for the modern USA. I have to strongly disagree with the statement that "It is unbelief, not faith, that led us to the blind arrogance that has mired this country in an unwinnable war now longer than WWII." If anything, the current modern conflict between highly religious terrorists and secular society is due to irrational religious interpretations. The situation is not aided by our current president who has a faith based ( not fact based ) approach to government and decision making.

"broke 1600 years of Christian tradition". Really, I have heard of many incidents of Christian inspired violence before including Crusades.

Btw, we would have been out of Iraq in 1 year after invasion if the Iraqi Muslims did not love so much to kill each other. We are now caught in a civil war.

What do you think of daily Islamic violence, besides 9/11,Beslan school massacre, train bombings, always targeting civlian men, women and children?

Do you think Islam , an exremely violent culture, started in middle of Arabia, spread peacefully all around the world?

How about sloth for Rev. Brooks? I would categorize sloth as part of the sin of shirking one's duty. Yes, there were no weapons of mass destruction, so that was obviously not a legitimate reason to invade Iraq, but this does not absolve America from its duty to do what it takes to get Iraq on its feet again. If you are angry about the invasion, the answer was to vote against Bush in 2004 (as I did), not blame the Iraqi people for it.

Currently, U.S. military forces in Iraq are there at the behest of a democratically-elected government and as part of a United Nations mandate. What could be more legitimate than that? I agree that if the government of Iraq asked U.S. forces to leave, they should, but until the Iraqi government does that, there is a responsibility to stay. Abandoning people to civil war, particularly just as U.S. forces are finally having some success in bringing peace to the country, is not only immoral, but fits Rev. Brook's self-described greater sin of stupidity. I guess it is the mark of the stupid that they commit their own worst sin without even realizing it.

How true!

I agree with the first two paragraphs - they are well written and accurate. However, your piece became offensive and highly off-base when you made the cheap and intellectually lazy suggestion that somehow "unbelief" is responsible for the Bush administration's pride. Are you in league with Mitt "Let's Gang Up on the Infidels" Romney? It is obvious to most thinking people that unbelief in God or Christianity was certainly not responsible for the disastrous war in Iraq. What got us into this war was a born-again, untreated alcoholic and his millions of ignorant, religious followers. How dare you try to blame the Iraq war on "unbelief"!

Talk about blather. Anyone that believes in supreme beings, messiahs, and virginal births should shut their mouths about stupidity, arrogance, pride, and conceit.

Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlewaite:

Very well said. Thank you.

John P. Conrad

Pride hides itself in other virtues. Attacking Iraq was a manifestation of a Warrior Virtue - a virtue that hides itself in Capitalism and Corporate America. The success of our country has been the ability to marry a Warrior with spirituality. Less spirituality we are only a warrior class.
Ohg
http://thefiresidepost.com/2007/11/27/life-or-death-warrior-virtues/

And yet so-called "Christians" were decisive in re-electing Bush. Hmmmm.

I agree with the entire statement except the last phrase. Given that we were wrong (sinned against our neighbor) in the first place, we are obligated to spend whatever it takes to make our neighbor "whole" again.

Agreed, we need to get out of Iraq, and every country we are fighting a war with. As in America, the American Indians have been violated again since this government has landed here.
In God we Trust, All others Beware. Please Stop these Wars and Take Care of Americans, or is Katrina, another example of our Government's Care & Mismanagement by Poorly elected Officials !!!!
The Hopeless poor, young and elderly need Someone(s) who will care about us Helpless American Citizens....
Please help !!!

Agreed, we need to get out of Iraq, and every country we are fighting a war with. As in America, the American Indians have been violated again since this government has landed here.
In God we Trust, All others Beware. Please Stop these Wars and Take Care of Americans, or is Katrina, another example of our Government's Care & Mismanagement by Poorly elected Officials !!!!
The Hopeless poor, young and elderly need Someone(s) who will care about us Helpless American Citizens....
Please help !!!

I don't view our Iraq action as "preemptive." To be preemptive, Iraq would have had to be an imminent threat, as Condolezza Rice asserted.

They were not.

So I think we need to revise our choice of language: Bush would have us think the occupation was preemptive, but it was not.

Rather, it was one hundred percent unjustified, and conducted based on a pack of lies, from an administration so insistent on lying that they outed a CIA operative working counter-proliferation in Iran to discredit evidence her husband brought back from Niger that they were indeed lies.

These are the facts as we know them. "Preemptive" does not fit these facts. "Rogue," however, does.

As for attributing the motive to blind pride, I don't see that, either. I see it as a move to make a grab for oil, striking while the sentiment of the nation post 9/11 would tolerate it.

But your implied point that this administration uses faith to exert its will with the faithful but then readily abandons its principles in its pursuit of wealth for their group of insiders is well taken. These people aren't Chrisitan; they are mammonists, worshiping only the almighty dollar.

Interesting article, although I couldn't agree less. Pride has no more to do with our involvement in the middle east than the ideology that God is love alone. Anyone who has read the old testament or end times prophecy would know that God has a violent, albeit wholly justified ingredient that is part of His mysterious makeup. So would you call David or Sampson prideful for their agressive episodes? Will God be self serving when He hurtles wormwood our way? I admire the desire for peace, but to be truly the realist would require each of us to acknowledge and accept that evil is a very real and unavoidable entity in our lives, and as long as such exists, there will never be peace on earth. How about turning your disappointment away from the mirror of our nation and pointing your finger instead at the true cause of our involvement in the middle east; support for Israel (you know, Gods chosen) and the fight against the cancer of Islam. That's right, the folks who brought you suicide bombers and sharia law. Where is your distaste for these, and where is your strength and will to confront such evil in the name of our loving God? Or does that not matter since you don't live in Karbala and you're not the one directly threatened? God knew this conflict would occur before He even formed this planet. How about we let Him see this through? To everything there is a season. We're not the bad guys.

The following is the text of Bishop Wenski’s letter to U.S. Secretary of State Rice:

Dear Madame Secretary:

On behalf of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, I am writing to you to express our deep concern and growing alarm at the rapidly deteriorating situation of Christians and other religious minorities in Iraq.

We deplore the sectarian violence engulfing the Shia and Sunni communities in Iraq. We are especially and acutely aware of the deliberate violence perpetrated against Christians and other vulnerable minorities. Christians continue to decline from a pre-war population of over 1.2 million to a current estimate of about 600,000. The growing and deliberate targeting of Christians is an ominous sign of the breakdown in Iraqi society of civil order and inter-religious respect and represents a grave violation of human rights and religious liberty.

The recent beheading of a Syriac Orthodox priest ...

in Mosul, the crucifixion of a Christian teenager in Albasra, the frequent kidnappings for ransom of Christians including four priests – one of whom was the secretary of Patriarch Delly, the rape of Christian women and teenage girls, and the bombings of churches are all indicators that the situation has reached a crisis point. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees estimates that approximately 44 percent of Iraqi refugees are Christian, even though they represent only about 4 percent of the total population of Iraq.

While thousands have fled to Syria, Jordan and Turkey, the remainder in Iraq are increasingly leading lives of desperation. Many no longer feel safe gathering in churches and Christian institutions, resulting in the closing of parishes, seminaries and convents. Others are fleeing to the north of Iraq in search of some measure of safety and sanctuary.

The vulnerability of Christians and other religious minorities is dramatic evidence of the serious and growing security challenges facing the entire nation of Iraq. Efforts must continue to end all sectarian violence and to make Iraq secure for everyone. At the same time, we also urge you to take several specific measures to improve the particular security situation of Christians and other minorities in Iraq. First, we hope that the U.S. government will consider the creation of a new “Administrative Region” in the Nineveh Plain Area that would be directly related to the central government in Baghdad.

This could provide Christians and other minorities with greater safety and offer more opportunity to control their own affairs with assistance from the central government. Since the Kurds are key to any real efforts to stabilize Iraq and many Christians and other minorities are fleeing to the north of Iraq, we ask that the U.S. government work with Kurdish authorities to ensure the safety of Christians in the Plain of Nineveh and to provide adequate protection and assistance for religious minorities in areas controlled directly by the Kurds.

We also believe that an urgent review of economic reconstruction aid programs is needed to make sure that the aid is distributed fairly so that all elements of Iraqi society are able to rebuild their communities. Finally, we urge the U.S. government to adopt a more generous refugee and asylum policy, including the possible resettlement of at-risk cases to the United States, and to work with the governments of Turkey, Jordan and Syria to grant visas to allow Iraqi Christians and others compelled to leave Iraq access to economic, health and other necessary assistance and help until they are able to stabilize their own situation, return to Iraq or make other plans for their future.

Thank you for your attention to this important concern. We would be happy to meet with you to discuss this urgent and dangerous situation further.

Sincerely yours,

Most Reverend Thomas G. Wenski

Bishop of Orlando

Chairman, Committee on International Policy

Pride; I would whole heartedly agree. Pride clouds men's judgment and resistance to change...

You can't be an honest investigator for the truth if you allow pride to get in the way! I see this happen to alot of incredible scholars and scientists alike.

Always remain open and never allow pride to be your stumbling block.