Four Thousand Years and Counting

Wrong. God isn't a unitarian. It isn't even necessary to save everyone to demonstrate mercy but if everyone goes to heaven then all that talk about justice in both old and new testament is just that talk and the Cross and its pain and suffering become in that context meaningless.

TO GARYD:

You wrote, "And yet knowing of the cross and exactly what it meant and every detail of what it would cost him and that even that would save only a few chose to utter those words any way."

YOU ARE SO WRONG.

You have no idea what God even went thru.

Jesus, Himself, went to hell. Jesus took the sin, original, and the sins, each and every sin, of every human being, past, present and to come upon Himself.

I know that hell is real and I also know tht spiritual death is real and I don't think that you do.

There is a difference between knowing and believing, some seem to interchange the two words.

I will give you this, you know God's Name.

Many that know God's Name sure do underestimate God.

God created everyone and we are all God's people whether you like it or not.

God's Plan is for all of His people to be with Him in His Kingdom.

Jesus condemned no one, He did woe some but He condemned no one.

Total Victory, God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable, the captives shall be released and the dead shall rise.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Of course I have Mr. Baum. Absent Mercy none of us will ever see heaven. None of us you see can ever be worthy of heaven for none of us are omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient which means we have no hope of ever obtaining perfection.

Humanity is not a family it is a collection of warring tribes and that appears to have been the case from the earliest days.

Of course God has a plan. He saw the cross before him before he ever uttered those faithful words "Let there be light"

And yet knowing of the cross and exactly what it meant and every detail of what it would cost him and that even that would save only a few chose to utter those words any way. The single greatest act of love in the history of the universe.

TO GARYD AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:

You wrote, " The ultimate difference becomes between a God for whom justice ultimately matters and one for whom justice is ultimately a matter of whim.

Have you ever heard of Mercy?

Have you ever heard of Forgiveness?

Have you ever heard that God has a Plan?

God is not going to jump into and out of a box for anyone no matter how nice you or anyone else makes it.

As Jesus was dying on the cross, He said, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do", how true, then and now.

Does it ever seem that humanity is one, big, unruly family?

Take care, be ready, I'll see you all in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The Jews were chosen to aid and abet in the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind. Not even they were aware of that and many unfortunately to this day aren't aware of it.

Jews Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God as the character of the deities in question are very much different. Different characters equal different Gods.

The great divide is between works and grace. The difference is between God Rescuing whom he wills and
God laying down rules for entry. The ultimate difference becomes between a God for whom justice ultimately matters and one for whom justice is ultimately a matter of whim.

I'm not Jewish so I won't debate whether the Jews "need" Israel or not. I will observe that American Jews are not the largest and most vocal lobby in support of the worst instincts of the Israeli government and the settlers' movement (mostly made up of ultra-religious dominionist fanatics) in the West Bank. That honor goes to American Evangelicals of a millenialist stripe, who want nothing more than Gotterdammurung - they call it Armageddon - in the Middle East.
Any Jew or Israeli who thinks these groups are friends of Israel needs to examine their writings and speeches more carefully. They aren't looking for a Jewish homeland, they are pushing a Christian battleground.
I was raised a Christian -- UCC as a matter of fact -- but ethnically and genetically I am from a Jewish background. By the standards of racial purists, that makes me and my children Jews; people with more tenuous connections than ours ended up at Oscwiecim.
I guess that's why Israel might be important.

*PRIVER.....The continuation of the many on the present course, end as must being as one within creation. The loss in that one having forfeited the material as gifted of the human form... .. .

The Jewish People have survived for over three thousand years.

(The earliest reference to Israel is from the funery stela of the Egyptian Pharoah Merneptah, now in the Cairo Museum, which dates to 1209 B.C.)

All other empires that persecuted the Jews, from the Arameans to the Moabites, from the Babylonians to the Assyrians to the Selucids, from the Romans to the Spanish Inquisition to the Nazis to Communists, have fallen.

Yet the Jewish People are still here.

Yes, they are very tiny: there are only 13.2 million Jews in the world, compared to 1.7 Billion Muslims and 2 Billion Christians. However, I believe they will continue to survive.

Today, every Jew by birth that is alive is not only a descendent of the people of ancient Israel, but a descendent of those who survived great persecution and pressure to convert over countless centuries.

This is a great privilage and an incredible legacy.

Yet, today many Jews are ignorant of their own heritage, from the Hebrew Bible itself to the archaeology of Israel, from the Dead Sea Scrolls to the great works of the Rabbinic Era.

Thus, in this country and others they are intermarrying, turning away from the sacrifices of their ancestors and casting out this heritage.

Pressured by societies that still hold true to the ideas of Replacement Theology--the theology that the Church, or the Islamic Ummah, has replaced the Jewish People as G-d's choosen--they often want to assimilate into the maintstream.

Without the knowledge of their history, the Jewish People cannot understand the religious roots of Replacement Theology and how it evolved into anti-Judaism and then anti-Semitism.

They forget that Jesus was a Jew, as was Mary, Joseph, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, all the Disciples, Isaiah, Jeremiah, all the Prophets, King David, Solomon, Jacob, Isaac, and Moses...

Thus, they simply, and tragically, internalize it.

So, will the Jewish People disappear over time?

No, it cannot be a coincidence that after 2,000 years of Exile the Jews have returned to their ancestral homeland to build a state, as it was predicted by Jeremiah and Isaiah.

Here is the future of the Jewish People, and as they have done for three millenium, they will--however small their numbers become--continue to survive and continue their ancestral legacy.

"PRIVER... The death of a thousand leaders, will not divert ISRAEL it's people from their ultimate goal..."

Which would be.....??

It's not ,i> all criticism of Israel that's anti-Semitic, just most of it that comes from mainline churches such as ours. For example, the UCC's General Assembly passed a resolution in 2005 asking Israel to take down the security fence without asking the Palestinians to stop the terror attacks that prompted its construction.

Yes indeed why do we spend trillions of dollars protecting ourselves and the rest of the Free World??

It is the constant War on Terror and Aggression as noted below:

First a partial contemporary body count:

1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens dead, thousands more injured.

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 80,381-87,792 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

1. Saddam the warmonger, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD before and after the Gulf War was one of his major mistakes. Kuwait is still free.

2. Iran is being been contained. (besides containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq.) And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region to fuel the world's economies.

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! (Or is he??)

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror and aggression brought about by the Japanese, Nazis and Communists were with great difficulty and expenditure of lives and money eliminated by the good guys.

And the leadership of both Democratic and Republican Presidents and the will of all good peoples continue to guide us through these troubling times.

PRIVER... The death of a thousand leaders, will not divert ISRAEL it's people from their ultimate goal... .. .

Pretty even-handed treatment by the author, which means it really did not "say" all that much.

Pretty even-handed treatment by the author, which means it really did not "say" all that much.

Susan Thistlethwaite's sloppy nauseating flagellation to Jews reaffirms my belief that America is a Jewish nation. I look at Jews as just another faith that deserves no special treatment. America’s ridiculous swing from fair arbiter to a nation in bed with Israel is despicable. I am tired of being called anti-Semitic because I don’t consider the Jews to be special. Jews are anti-everything because they attack all who do not revere them. By the way I tried their food and I don’t like it. END THE WAR IN IRAQ.

My question is this; why is so much emphasis given to what is really nothing more than a minor world religion?
There are no more than 20 million Jews in the entire world and about 6 million in the US. In a planet of 6 Billion and a country (the US) of 300 million those numbers are small. For that matter, the country of Israel is small, it has no natural resources and were it not for the fact that it gets good press (even though the treatment of the Palestinians would suggest that it should get very negative press), it is insignificant.
So, why should this insignificant religion and this insignificant country get so much press?

The Holy rophet(peace of Allah on him) said once that every child born is a Muslim,it is we who label/make him/her christian,jew,hindu etc.It meant that every new born is innocent and a true man of God is innocent=pure from every kind of rubbish-spiritual or physical.One wise man once said that when the people shall be presented before God on doom'd day then the creator shal enquire them that from the share of innocence y were given at time birth,how much persent innocence y have brought back and on this basis our status in world after shall be evaluated.The terms of religions and sects are our self made.Judaism also is also a pretty vacubollary.The question arises whether the practicing men of faith are truly practicing commands which their respective Prophet ordered or they have mixed the commands with their own self desires and illusion-borrowed from other traditions/faith or mixed willfully.The innocence of Prophet should never be ,aligned or tarnished if y truly want to present ourselves in front of creator on doom;s day

Personally, I blame the Brits. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, they ran all over the place with their "world domination" mentality and interjected themselves into cultures they didn't understand and never learned. Then, when things got tough, they moved out. They drew a line in the sand (literally in this case) along the Jordan River, said "East of the Jordan in for Muslims, West is for Jews... we're outta here!"

In fact, they did the same thing when they left the Pakistan / India region. Israel and Palestine battle over the West Bank, Pakistan and India battle over Kashmir, and I think Great Britain's mismanagement is largely to blame.

My 2¢.

SUSAN, All that Mumbo Jumbo but allowing you to slip in an appalling insult to the president of IRAN, Mahmmoud Ahmadinejad being a extremist, as further increase anti muslim, hate, malice, thus aiding military force against IRAN it's peoples. SUSAN there being no doubt you have been well as truely brainwashed,as such used in your defence. Yet, to writing such poison an very grave crime. SUSAN, it cruel a act heartless as it appalling, you should hang your head, in utter shame of it.

TO: A SMALL REQUEST

Frankly, it seems to me, however faulty my histroy, the Jewish immigrants came here of their own choice.
Don't recall that anyone called them.

In fact, Americans didn't want the Jewish refugees here, nor did any other country in Europe or elsewhere if you recall.

Soo sorry you're unhappy. Other immigrants have declared happiness, realize that assimilation is what America's all about and have set to it.

And they don't expected to be terminated, mostly, I believe. Don't spend much time complaining about their "separateness and superiority"...and don't whine much. Oh well.
Have a good day.

Jack Knife states that "according to Exodus, Jews were God's chosen people" and asks "Why were not ALL people chosen by God."

The Jewish answer, as I understand it, is that all people are chosen by God -- that there is nothing special or privileged about Jews.

The "chosen-ness" is more a matter of self appointment: creating and perpetuating a culture and communal life based on a belief that the world is created out of nothing by that which is prior to either something or nothing; that this is the truth and a liberating one; that it is available to everyone on the same basis, whether they are Jews or not; and that living according to this truth, or trying to, will benefit all of mankind.

Another way of putting it: according to some ancient Rabbi, the Jews were "chosen" after God offered what became the Jewish way of life to all of the rest of the world's "peoples" (69 out of 70, according to the folk-ethnology of Genesis), these other 69 peoples wisely declined the offer, and the Jews ("Children of Israel") were only group foolish enough to accept it.

"Judaism as a whole remains not so much a belief system as a vibrant way of interpreting life lived with God."

This high-sounding statement doesn't stand up to analysis. "A vibrant way of interpreting life lived with God" presupposes some kind of "belief system." There can be no interpretation without some framework of interpretation which boils down to certain core beliefs used to rank and regulate the rest of one's beliefs.

Judaism is a religion: i.e. belief system or, perhaps, a family of closely related belief systems.

Remarkably, Jews, a notoriously intellectual and verbal group, have always resisted formal theology with axioms, dogmas, doctrines, creeds and catechisms -- preferring and, indeed, insisting that "core beliefs" of Judaism must be and can only be expressed and transmitted tacitly.

But there is set of core beliefs about the nature and fate of the world and the human condition (i.e. "faith," to use the Christian term) which distinguishes Judaism as such. And those core beliefs are very different from that of Christianity.

Indeed, the belief that other core beliefs can only be expressed and transmitted tacitly is part of the Jewish belief system and one which symbolizes critical differences between Judaism and Christianity, at least most forms of Christianity.

A related core belief, to which Thistlethwaith alludes but doesn't really capture, is this: the true sacraments are the mundane acts of life, i.e. eating, sex and learning, done with the proper intention -- that you meet God in these ways -- not through ritual or prayer or in an afterlife.
Providence is the fact that there is a world at all and grace is the fact that we get to experience it. The phrase, "belief in God," has a different meaning in Judaism than in other monotheistic religions. Another core Jewish belief is that God is the question and man is the answer -- not the other way around: that the highest form of faith is to constantly question the nature and purpose of things with the view that you will get better answers and thereby improve the world.

Many Jews, if pressed, would take exception to some or all of the foregoing. Yet all of them, if examined closely, act (i.e. believe) accordingly. It's what makes them Jews.

I agree with Disgusted.

I hope that Susan will provide answers to J. Knife's questions with a proof that doesn't require faith (that belief which can neither be proven nor disproved).

H. Zeller's explanations seemed only to underline JK's questions.

It is funny to see that all four commentators here were not Jewish. This commentary seems particularly dismissive of Orthodox Judaism.

All we Jews ask of you gentiles is that you keep the seven Noahide laws and do your best not to try and exterminate us. Is that too much to ask?

This woman thinks she knows from Jews. And Jews, she says, don't need Israel. Oh, no. We'll just rely on the good ole world to look after us. 5000 years of pogroms and holocausts, and what we can depend on is the peace loving world?

This is total B.S. Such mamby-pamby thinking belongs in some zen budhhist temple on a mountain top, high above the daily reality of civilizations.

Only a fool would listen to this kind of stupidness.

The good reverend might wish to grieve more for the Palestinians than the American jews who feel soooo bad about Israel.

It is the Amerian jews who pay for the genocide and who do not much complain about it, or at least have lost their ability to communicate on this one subject! I read six or seven papers a day and have seen nothing of such.

Get REAL.

The good reverend might wish to grieve more for the Palestinians than the American jews who feel soooo bad about Israel.

It is the Amerian jews who pay for the genocide and who do not much complain about it or at least have lost their ability to communicate on this one subject! I read six or seven papers a day and have seen nothing of such.

Get REAL.

Reply to Harold A. Zeller,

A compelling response to my questions, but I'll remain faithful to Ziene! :-)

A Chinese Creation Myth (Miao People)
Who made heaven and earth?
Who made insects?
Who made men?
Made male and made female?
I who speak don't know.

Heavenly King made heaven and earth,
Ziene made insects,
Ziene made men and demons,
Made male and made female.
How is it you don't know?

How made heaven and earth?
How made insects?
How made men and demons?
Made male and made female?
I who speak don't know.

Heavenly King was intelligent,
Spat a lot of spittle into his hand,
Clapped his hands with a noise,
Produced heaven and earth,
Tall grass made insects,
Stories made men and demons,
Made men and demons,
Made male and made female.
How is it you don't know?

This article has reminded me that I haven't had a homemade knish in about twenty years. :^(

1. Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2. The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3. And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4. And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5. By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Do you see “ The sons of Japheth” “ these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands”

25. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27.God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Do you see “God shall enlarge Japheth” These are the children of god. And who is your servent “Canaan shall be his servant.” “ Cursed be Canaan”

1. And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord, when Ehud was dead.
2.And the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles.

Look “ the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord” “Canaan shall be his servant.” When Israel does evil in the sight of the LORD, Canaan will be his servent. Do you see “the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan”

Look “4. And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.” Do you no see “she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim” Do you not understand “the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.” Israel defeated Jabin.

Try to understand “evil in the sight of the Lord” “Canaan shall be his servant.” When Gentiles do evil in the sight of the LORD, Canaan will be his servent. Do you see “the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan” “dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles” Jabin destroyed the Gentiles “the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan”.

quoting Jack Knife
"1) According to Exodus, Jew's were God's chosen people. Why were not ALL people chosen by God?"

Look
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Do you see "when man began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them" "My spirit shall not always strive with man" "his days shall be an hundred and twenty years" lOOK "And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel. And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the Lord hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan." Do you see "I am an hundred and twenty years old this day" "his days shall be an hundred and twenty years" Do you understand the "daughters were BORN" of MAN, MOSES (ISRAEL) Does not Solomon say to keep the LAW of your Mother.

So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said. And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

Do you see "Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law" Moses harkened to His Father (The LORD) in Law. Not his wife's father. Moses' Father and Mother were the LORD. Do you not understand "keep the Law of your Mother, written by the Hand of the LORD and hearken to the voice of the LORD, the Father.

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

What is Israel? "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord" They keep the Law of their Mother, the LORD, and hearken to the voice of the Father the LORD. They know not of any other gods. Do you see "the Lord loved you" "the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand" "redeemed you" And who are they delivered from "from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

Israel is Chosen of the LORD

"If Jesus is the son of God, Why didn't the father make his son known to his "chosen people"?

Israel is the seed of the LORD. "Jesus (Pharaoh king of Egypt) is the son of God" That is why Israel knows Moses and not Jesus.

Reverend,

I am curious why if there is one "God" that created the heavens and earth:

1) According to Exodus, Jew's were God's chosen people. Why were not ALL people chosen by God?

2) If Jesus is the son of God, Why didn't the father make his son known to his "chosen people"?

Respectfully,

Jack

I wonder if the best chance for peace evaporated with the stroke and disability of Ariel Sharon. He seemed to be heading in a direction of conciliation when he was taken down. It's a shame.

The peace process has been a constant for my entire life. I've never had the sense that any "player" in the process had any desire for peace. The Arabs and the Israelis both seem to want genocide. The U.S. want... oil? arms deals? political theater? I'm not sure.

Only the powerless want peace. The rest are having too much fun.