Faith, Fear and Falling Markets

Runaway spending on Iraq??? Are you dreaming? The entire Military budget the majority of which is only vaguely related to Iraq is only 21% of the Federal Budget. We are averaging 200 billion a year on Iraq. The average federal budget during that time has been well in excess of 2 trillion dollars if we hadn't spent a dime on Iraq we'd still be in the hole substantially. Does anyone o the left theologian or not ever bother to look at the federal budget before they make such insipid statements? For every dollar we spend on the military we spend four on some other sort of program usually social.

"If I Ever Lose My Faith In You" by Sting (watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56Y-qZQ_DTk)

You could say I lost my faith in science and progress
You could say I lost my belief in the holy church
You could say I lost my sense of direction
You could say all of this and worse but

If I ever lose my faith in you
There'd be nothing left for me to do

Some would say I was a lost man in a lost world
You could say I lost my faith in the people on TV
You could say I'd lost my belief in our politicians
They all seemed like game show hosts to me

If I ever lose my faith in you
There'd be nothing left for me to do

I could be lost inside their lies without a trace
But every time I close my eyes I see your face

I never saw no miracle of science
That didn't go from a blessing to a curse
I never saw no military solution
That didn't always end up as something worse but
Let me say this first

If I ever lose my faith in you
There'd be nothing left for me to do

The problem is that neochritians worship money along with their twisted version of hateful Bible verses. They fret and pray for material things instead of peace, family and health. Faith is not about money. When I was downsized at 54, my faith wasn't in my stock options and 401K rising or falling. It was faith that God would give me opportunities to prosper doing other things. Of course, I could no longer give 10% to the Dobsons, Robertson and Haggards. Maybe this is a part of the neochristian fear.

I am thankful for the benefits that my elderly mother receives from the government. It is well deserved after my parents public and private contributions to this country. I gladly pay taxes for the greater benefit I receive by giving the elderly a just and noble retirement and the security of not having so many desperate people living on the edge.

I think we should allocate more of our tax money to social security and that we should change our foriegn policy so we don't have to build so many complex weapons that drain our economy.

The only thing we had to fear then was FDR himself. We're paying for his rampant abuse of the constitution still. The next time you're looking at your paycheck and wondering why the government is stealing a big chunk of your money for a program (social insecurity) that you'll never see any return from, thank FDR.

If you think the stuff that he got passed is bad, research the stuff that got rejected.

DNAs are like computer programs on a CD but they act very differently. It's like plugging a CD on an electrical outlet and then that CD morphs into a CD player and plays its tune. That is how intelligent the maker of DNA is and I call that maker God. Science won't be able to reach that level of intelligence. They can only mimic or copy a DNA function but they can never understand it's secrets like how and why DNAs exist.

Anybody who claims that it is "incidental" or random is mad. The word random simply means "no solution" or "I don't know". It's actually an admission that they know nothing and they only cover their ignorance thru clever use of words.

About what secularists should do, I hope this is a good advice.I think I haven't seen a secularist little child yet. How they became secularists thru time is the devil's doing. They've been hearing and entertaining false doctrines for so long that they don't know what separates truth and lies anymore. Seek the truth and start by reading the Bible. Humility is key to understanding it otherwise it's a useless effort.

Spiderman2

So what would you have done to the secularists?
you wanna burn them? Gas them? Just beat 'em up?
I get the feeling that you'd like to tear their faces off.
Or do you just want them to get in line and decide to believe in an invisible skygod,because you think there is one?
Did you ever wonder if maybe,just maybe,there isn't a god?
No,I didn't think so.
But you should try it,because as far as we know
there are no gods;or fairies.And no heaven either.
It was all made up.Like Santa.

Anon, how about this prophecy :

"Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." Zechariah 14:12

How accurate. There's no other phenomenon on earth that is capable of consuming flesh so fast that a person still stands on his feet as it happens. The heat must be very intense. How did the prophet knew it when there were no nukes in his time coz only a nuke can do such a thing with it's intense heat radiation?

Anon, if you think this recession is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet. Sad to say but troubles won't leave us unless all secularist vanish like vapor. As sure as the sun sets to the west, that will surely happen. Sorry guys, the grace period is almost over.

Hey Ann,
We get it, OK? You don't need to post it 10 times.

I don't know much about the stock market but it does seem that the people that put their faith in it sure do have a jumpy faith.

Is there a reason for all of the bells and whistles that they have on the floor of the exchange besides calling attention to themselves?

Have any of you out there ever thought about how ironic it is that the people that do the actual work of humanity are sometimes paid enough to make ends meet and are grateful?

I would like to ask a question or so, not really to be answered but something to think about.

How come when there is talk of downsizing and various other terms people use to avoid the reality of other people's lives taking a very tough turn, so many don't seem to care at all, in fact some seem downright ecstatic about the rise in the market value?

Now that the numbers are falling there seems to be panic among some, could these be the same ones that were so ecstatic before when it wasn't their own personal life that was being affected?

I have no answers for the world economy but I am here to tell the world that God wins, satan loses and that a tie is unacceptable.

It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

Some seem to think that a big portfolio is important but as the market has been trying to tell people lately, that portfolio can go down the tubes rather quickly.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

spiderman2:

Bible prophecies are just like the ones made by Miss Bonnie Parker about what would happen to her and Clyde Barrows. That tells us those Bible prophets were bank robbers, really just cheap crooks which is all Bonnie and Clyde were. Their biggest haul was less than a thousand dollars. A real bank robber, Dillinger said, "they're giving bank robbing a bad name" like Haggard and the ministry.

While your thoughts are uplifting, you strike a sour note, especially the part about human beings "called to a higher purpose of community and caring both in our own nation and around the world."

This is the exact same "faith" rhetoric G.W. Bush has used to lie, and lie and lie for the past 7 years to advance his ungodly objectives to the detriment of the common man. If you disagree, read Froomken's today column, "935 Iraq Falshoods."

Please don't call for faith in these hard times. Instead, call for discrimination, truth seeking, honesty and for keeping faith out of government.

If you ask me why these people hate us, blame the secularists. These countries hate the U.S because they see us as "Satan's Empire". Thanks to secularists liberalism. Funny coz these secularists blame Christians when they are the real scourge of this country. It's not over yet for this country, the worse is yet to come. It's payback time as the Bible prophecied.

The thing that contributes much to U.S recession is the fact that the U.S. is pouring much of its money to finance the Iraq war but on the other hand, the Arab oil producing countries and OPEC as a whole are not shoring up the dollar value by avoiding it. We're helping this countries by infusing huge amount of money but on the other hand, they want us to economically fail by not supporting or by avoiding the dollar. These countries love Hugo Chavez than the U.S and Americans seem oblivious of that fact. Like Hugo, they want America's economy to fail and it seems to be working since Hugo's rhetoric during the last OPEC meeting. They may not support him publicly but secretly, they do.

I agree that human beings are higher than their material worth. I want to add that the world wealth is the whole sum of the love and truth of the human beings shown and the work and efforts made by the humanity for its total welfare. In that sense, what is happening now is just the natural correction to shatter national boundaries and our economic theories. Instead of fearing, if we exhibit courage to take this opportunity to shed our west/east/south/north divisions and think big as human community, this is an opportunity to progress in a very big way.

When you consider the last one hundred years in the history of this planet of ours, you will notice a small country - the USA - small, by the number of its inhabitants, and it still is, from this point of view, was able to build up to the most prosperous and powerful nation in the world, and to build up the League of Nations, under President W. Wilson, then the United Nations Organization.

Whatever the achievements of both organizations, one faith - christian in what is universal in this word - constructed them all : the confidence in a free, universal society. FDR, the spiritual son of Wilson, built the UNO against many forces that have today reversed the situation.
The USA have come to Irak mainly to oppose a UN led, politically "universal" approach of the dictatorship of this most ancient country. Now the times have changed, it seems. No, they haven't and don't. United, we build. Alone, we lose.

FDR built. Wilson built. From many points of view, Ieschoua built - this was the real name of Jesus. Many civilizations - ancient they are and for some of them now totally forgotten - built. This tooks them centuries. Only days or months to erase them. This is but world history. A United States of the World has now to to be fully built up. This is but plain common sense. Everything else is totally unrealistic.

There has never been any fear when you feel in the making of history !

Having faith is not the religious war in Irag for oil. The only high ground Bush-Cheney White House leaders has is for the rich (the 1% and big profits for the oil companies and corporation with off-shore tax protection.) The poor black, whites and hispanic can go hungry freeze to death in the middle of a cold winter nite alone.

As a person of faith I refuse to let you or any Bush beleiver use me for fear mongering. The reason we are in a recession is because of this President tax-cut for the rich and (Bush War) and his big spending, when the GOP house and senator did not have a bill Bush did not like. This Christian Man wants to go Heaven, do you think!! the Bible says a rich man will go to heaven only if a camel can go threw the eye of a needle.

What the President has done to the people all over the world is unforgivable. He is the BAD, EVIL and UGLY.

Having faith is not the religious war in Irag for oil. The only high ground Bush-Cheney White House leaders has is for the rich (the 1% and big profits for the oil companies and corporation with off-shore tax protection.) The poor black, whites and hispanic can go hungry freeze to death in the middle of a cold winter nite alone.

As a person of faith I refuse to let you or any Bush beleiver use me for fear mongering. The reason we are in a recession is because of this President tax-cut for the rich and (Bush War) and his big spending, when the GOP house and senator did not have a bill Bush did not like. This Christian Man wants to go Heaven, do you think!! the Bible says a rich man will go to heaven only if a camel can go threw the eye of a needle.

What the President has done to the people all over the world is unforgivable. He is the BAD, EVIL and UGLY.

Having faith is not the religious war in Irag for oil. The only high ground Bush-Cheney White House leaders has is for the rich (the 1% and big profits for the oil companies and corporation with off-shore tax protection.) The poor black, whites and hispanic can go hungry freeze to death in the middle of a cold winter nite alone.

As a person of faith I refuse to let you or any Bush beleiver use me for fear mongering. The reason we are in a recession is because of this President tax-cut for the rich and (Bush War) and his big spending, when the GOP house and senator did not have a bill Bush did not like. This Christian Man wants to go Heaven, do you think!! the Bible says a rich man will go to heaven only if a camel can go threw the eye of a needle.

What the President has done to the people all over the world is unforgivable. He is the BAD, EVIL and UGLY.

Having faith is not the religious war in Irag for oil. The only high ground Bush-Cheney White House leaders has is for the rich (the 1% and big profits for the oil companies and corporation with off-shore tax protection.) The poor black, whites and hispanic can go hungry freeze to death in the middle of a cold winter nite alone.

As a person of faith I refuse to let you or any Bush beleiver use me for fear mongering. The reason we are in a recession is because of this President tax-cut for the rich and (Bush War) and his big spending, when the GOP house and senator did not have a bill Bush did not like. This Christian Man wants to go Heaven, do you think!! the Bible says a rich man will go to heaven only if a camel can go threw the eye of a needle.

What the President has done to the people all over the world is unforgivable. He is the BAD, EVIL and UGLY.

Having faith is not the religious war in Irag for oil. The only high ground Bush-Cheney White House leaders has is for the rich (the 1% and big profits for the oil companies and corporation with off-shore tax protection.) The poor black, whites and hispanic can go hungry freeze to death in the middle of a cold winter nite alone.

As a person of faith I refuse to let you or any Bush beleiver use me for fear mongering. The reason we are in a recession is because of this President tax-cut for the rich and (Bush War) and his big spending, when the GOP house and senator did not have a bill Bush did not like. This Christian Man wants to go Heaven, do you think!! the Bible says a rich man will go to heaven only if a camel can go threw the eye of a needle.

What the President has done to the people all over the world is unforgivable. He is the BAD, EVIL and UGLY.

The Bible is a proved hoax, http://www.hoax-buster.org

Not so? OK http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul The Bible is the word of the biggest Devil of them all, Lucifer. You can put your faith in that and avoid blasphemy every time you recite the pledge.

Having faith is not the religious war in Irag for oil. The only high ground Bush-Cheney White House leaders has is for the rich (the 1% and big profits for the oil companies and corporation with off-shore tax protection.) The poor black, whites and hispanic can go hungry freeze to death in the middle of a cold winter nite alone.

As a person of faith I refuse to let you any Bush beleiver use me for fear mongering. The reason we are in a recession is because of this President tax-cut for the rich and Bush War and his big spending, when the GOP house and senator did not have a bill Bush did not like. This Christian Man wants to go Heaven do you think!! the Bible says a rich man will go to heaven only if a camel can go threw the eye of a needle.

What the President has not the people all over the world is unforgivable. He is the Bad, evil and ugly.

Having faith is not the religious war in Irag for oil. The only high ground Bush-Cheney White House leaders has is for the rich (the 1% and big profits for the oil companies and corporation with off-shore tax protection.) The poor black, whites and hispanic can go hungry freeze to death in the middle of a cold winter nite alone.

As a person of faith I refuse to let you any Bush beleiver use me for fear mongering. The reason we are in a recession is because of this President tax-cut for the rich and Bush War and his big spending, when the GOP house and senator did not have a bill Bush did not like. This Christian Man wants to go Heaven do you think!! the Bible says a rich man will go to heaven only if a camel can go threw the eye of a needle.

What the President has not the people all over the world is unforgivable. He is the Bad, evil and ugly.

Having faith is not the religious war in Irag for oil. The only high ground Bush-Cheney White House leaders has is for the rich (the 1% and big profits for the oil companies and corporation with off-shore tax protection.) The poor black, whites and hispanic can go hungry freeze to death in the middle of a cold winter nite alone.

As a person of faith I refuse to let you any Bush beleiver use me for fear mongering. The reason we are in a recession is because of this President tax-cut for the rich and Bush War and his big spending, when the GOP house and senator did not have a bill Bush did not like. This Christian Man wants to go Heaven do you think!! the Bible says a rich man will go to heaven only if a camel can go threw the eye of a needle.

What the President has not the people all over the world is unforgivable. He is the Bad, evil and ugly.

Fear is when you find yourself with a medical bill so high, that to pay it would absolutely break you. Fear is when the Government takes everything from you to help pay the taxes, that our Government waste. Then turns around and tells you that it is you fault you can not pay. Fear is the thought of next month, you will not be able to afford the rent on the decrypted house you live in. Fear is being put out on the street, when you are all ready sick. I believe it was one of the Scandinavian Countries, that pays about 70% of their pay to Taxes. The difference between the US and them is, all of their medical, dental, child care, and many other benefits are payed for by those Taxes. In the United States the so call Christian country, is Christian in voice and not in action. Ms. Thistlethwaite you need to be preaching to the so called Christian Representatives of our Nation. Some of the wealthy people on earth, are making themselves richer at the expense of the poor. Please enlighten me on how Christian that is? Then maybe I can understand your God! The God of the rich~at lest from my stand point.

Oh for such leadership now!

Grief is a real human emotion. When one loses something or someone important the worst thing to do is to deny the truth with statements of faith and fear. Losing one's life savings and facing the horrors of poverty bring real human responses.
Ohg
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/01/22/grief-an-emotional-response-to-the-economy/

Terrific article. I completely agree with you.
I had never read your articles before a few months ago. I also really enjoyed "Faith of a Muggle".

I've watched for seven years as Congressmen John Spratt and Kent Conrad have taken to the floor of the House and the airwaves to warn in no uncertain terms that the bush/Greenspan/pundits-like-Kudlow-driven economy was a sham and a disaster waiting to happen.

The fact is that had Greenspan not lowered interest rates to obscene levels, we would have been in an economic downturn for most of the bush presidency. The entire economy has been propped up by low interest rates that enticed people to purchase homes. That led to a decrease in the inventory in homes which drove up prices and encouraged over-development of new homes. With the rise in prices came the rise in home equity, and the rise in home equity loans to fuel a consumer economy that had no where to turn for buying power but to their homes, as real wages for the vast majority were stagnant or in decline.

Now, we've arrived at the long-planned pay-off time for the lenders. They'll happily write down their losses - it's a tax break! They'll happily lay off thousands of little people - the fat cats keep their jobs and get even bigger raises and bonuses! New loans will go only to those heavily qualified to receive them (ie: the rich), and the rich will begin to buy up foreclosed properties at fire-sale prices so they can rent those homes back to the people who previously owned them.

Welcome to Republican America, where Old Man Potter is buying and George Bailey never existed.

And to top things off, bush's illegal and expensive wars AREN'T EVEN ON BUDGET! That's right. As bad as it is, the cost of the wars aren't even figured in to the financial meltdown, even as government borrowing to fund the fiascoes exerts pressure on interest rates to climb ever higher. It was one thing when the government was borrowing money from China and Japan to fund their off-budget adventures. It's quite another thing when our financial institutions turn to the same sources to secure money to loan you on your next big-ticket purchase. That's very much on-budget for all of us.

If you think faith and prayer have a prayer of doing anything constructive in such a situation, may I remind you that faith and prayer and the religious types in this country are largely responsible for getting us into this mess to begin with?

Perhaps a first step to financial security would be to invest heavily in tar and feathers, and to lead the marches down to Washington and Wall Street. There's plenty of tarring and feathering to be done. Enough, in fact, to make the French Revolution look like a luau in comparison.

VIX(Volatility Index) tops 30(that means high volatility).
As you say,British benchmark(FTSE),India(Sensex) and Hong Kong(Heng Seng) tumbled.
China and Japan stocks declined more then 10 percent in three days and DJIA is dropping(freefall) towards 11000.0.75 FED rate cut couldnt help the markets.

EUR/USD rebounds from 1.50,now 1.45 and Oil came back from 100 USD,now 87 USD per barrel.The Gold was marching to 1000 USD,but failed and now 887 USD.

3 Trillion Dollars from Equity Markets(all over the world) eroded within one week.When I write my post Wall Street plunged another 2 percent.

There will be seven years abundance and seven years famine.The Law.

There are several fundamental principles of self defense. I mention these because when I was young I was told the story of the little boy who when told not to play in the mud cried out for god to protect him from the mud just before he jumped in. Needless to say it did not protect him from mama's wrath.

It is a fundamental principle of self defense to not trust anyone. Deal with people as if you do but keep a wary eye out. This is especially important in women's self defense. For the statistics show that 70 to 80 percent of the abuse on women comes from quote loved ones unquote.

Where has it is nice to have faith and trust in one another, remember that the CEO of some company making 2-3M/yr is unaware of the pain of the lowly office worker just put out of a job. All he is concerned is whether the money he has can be put in a place where it does not loose too much in value and Oh yes whether he can get home tonight with the commute with out too much hassle in he Hummer.

It has not changed since the we were in the trees when the one at the top shook the tree so someone at the bottom fell out and the lion walking around the tree on the ground went away.

Trust is good remember we have not changed much.

The U.S. consumer needs a good job.

The Corporatism that FDR was fighting is stronger today and more entrenched after 20 years of the Reagan-Bush-Clinton dynasties that have made these fascists stronger.

One need only examine the votes of Hillary to see that nothing will change. Media interests will continue to consolidate as have many industries. Both have been harmful, but the noose that's been put on the truth in favor of faith-based, rather than rational-realistic-scientific policies have brought about nothing but greed and avarice by both parties.

Keep the faith doesn't cut it. A re-revolution may be America's only salvation as we are no longer a country of, by and for the people. We are a country of by and for the corporations, and they have no compassion or conscience--only greed is their motivation.

Pray to God, but keep rowing towards shore...

FDR was talking about the Bush's great granddad and the other pro-Mussolini fascists who believe in an ownership society--where a few own everything and take no accountability for their failures to the human race.

We are at the nadir of our civilization under corporatist rule, which BTW won't end with either Hillary or Barrack. They have both sold out America for power.

I hope you have a life vest, because faith, belief won't keep you afloat, and won't change reality.

For example, the Bushies believe that if you believe there is no such thing as global warming there isn't global warming. Or, that just saying you are compassionate is enough, forget the least amongst us.

They are only Christians in word, not deed.

Those who wish a discussion of this notion of the proper role of faith in the economy would do better to read Catholic social teaching that Ms. Thistlethwaite's shallow work. FDR as "faith in action." What nonsense! FDR replaced government as the expression of man's hope in place of God. And, contra Les Caine, the US was not recovering prior to WWII with the unemployment rate at the same level in 1939 as in 1932. That is why FDR set his mind to war despite his public protestations of staying out of war.

He was a liar and manipulator and no example of Christian virtue.

Christianity is about more than this shallow tripe. (And BTW, the Apostle John was speaking about fear of the judgment on sin in 1 John 4, not fear of a falling stock market. But then that would require Ms. Thistlethwaite to write about sin and judgment, which she certainly won't do. Unless it is to condemn politically correct political sins.)

What a shame that in today's atmosphere so many who beat their breasts and proclaim their theological purism still ignore those least able to survive economic upheavil. It took many years for me to really understand why Conservatives absoluted despised FDR. The Upper Class felt then it deserved a priviledged status and it still does. But than they fought Teddy Roosevelt also. One family, two great Presidents. Times have changed.

Americans were fortunate to have a leader like FDR to navigate the depression. In those desperate times many thought Hitler had the answers. FDR and Eleanor took Americans in a revolutionary and positive direction that broke with the most recent path, the New Deal. Christian inspired civic mindedness helped repair the breach. America was on the road to recovery before WW11.

Unfortunately, the Enron debacle demonstrates that faith alone is not enough.

Amen

a printing mistake: "insult" should be "insulate"
There is much to fear: the incompetence in the White House.

Susan, Very well put! Thank you.