Attention Shoppers: Jesus Christ for Sale in Aisle 3

Daniel in the Lion's Den -
Those were 2 beautiful stories. I too, grew up in a small town. We had more than 1 church tho; but I went to the Methodist Church. I remember the Christmas Eve Candlelight services and the large tree. Ours did not have presents under it tho - but we did exchanges in Sunday School and MYF. I would have loved to see the lighting of candles on a tree tho.
Christmas is about family, friends and peace - thanks for sharing your families' memories. May all the peace of the season be yours - no matter what you believe - and a Happy 2008.

Daniel in the Lion's Den -
Those were 2 beautiful stories. I too, grew up in a small town. We had more than 1 church tho; but I went to the Methodist Church. I remember the Christmas Eve Candlelight services and the large tree. Ours did not have presents under it tho - but we did exchanges in Sunday School and MYF. I would have loved to see the lighting of candles on a tree tho.
Christmas is about family, friends and peace - thanks for sharing your families' memories. May all the peace of the season be yours - no matter what you believe - and a Happy 2008.

Daniel in the Lion's Den -
Those were 2 beautiful stories. I too, grew up in a small town. We had more than 1 church tho; but I went to the Methodist Church. I remember the Christmas Eve Candlelight services and the large tree. Ours did not have presents under it tho - but we did exchanges in Sunday School and MYF. I would have loved to see the lighting of candles on a tree tho.
Christmas is about family, friends and peace - thanks for sharing your families' memories. May all the peace of the season be yours - no matter what you believe - and a Happy 2008.

Happy Yuletide,

Our Creator has begun the lengthening of daylight and there isn't a thing Christians, Mormons, Jews or anyone else can do about it. Pagan prayers and offerings will rule as they have from time immemorial.

No amount of Christian, Muslim, or Jewish prayers prevailed over our celebrations last night or the Sun rise this morning.

What fun!! Presents! Santa Claus! Whoops, did we pagans co-opt a Christian word - Saint Nick?? - just a translation of Julenissen? - hmmmm - no matter - Pagan and Christian children world-wide are waiting to hear the jingle bells of Dasher,Dancer, Comet, and the others.

To Daniel in the Lion's Den,

What a wonderful story! I had considered doing something like that this year, since I'm celebrating my first Yule at home, and raised Jewish I never got to have the fun of a tree, but had no idea if it was possible. We tried to keep ours as simple as possible and as natural as we can, so we converted plastic fruit into ornaments.

I'll have to keep that in mind for a future possibility. What a sight that must have been!

Blessed be this holiday season. :)

Some stories of Christmas's past:

To give context to this story, my father was born in 1923. My father grew up in a tiny hamlet in West Virginia. The community then was probably no more than 100 people. There was only one church, a Methodist Church, a classic little white country church, with a tall, Gothic steeple.

He has told me that when he was little, everyone gathered at the church on the evening of Christmas eve for a relgious service. Inside the church, there was an enormous Christmas tree, going up to the ceiling, which was very high. The tree was already decorated, and underneath the tree was enormous pile of presents, and everyone got a present. That is a fond memory of his, as a child. And the greeting that they all said to each other was not "Merry Christmas;" they said "Christmas Gift." I wonder, does anyone else have a memory of this Christmas greeting? (I don't know who arranged to put up the tree or get the presents, but that is his story).

My grandmother (my father's mother, living in the same place) was born in 1888; this also for context. She told me that when whe was a little girl, she remembered Christmas trees lit with candles. She said that most people did not have a Christmas tree, and of the people who did, most people did not light them with candles. But a few people did.

She described to me the candle-lighting ceremony:

When someone with a tree was ready to light the candles, they invited all the neighbors, especially the children. A group of men was given buckets of water, to stand nearby, in case the tree caught on fire. Each candle was already on the tree, carefully arranged so that no branches over-hung a candle. (In fact, that probably explains the necessity of having a pyramid-shaped tree).

Then they put the lights low, and lit each candle. Then they all just sat in silence and observed all the lit candles on the tree. The candles were only allowed to burn for 2 or 3 minutes, and then they were extinguished.

Compared to the lights we have today, this seems very low-key and sedate. But my grandmother swore that this simple ceremony of lighting the candles on the Christmas tree was one of the most wonderful and exciting things that she remembered from her childhood.

Jacob, why do you want to p*ss me off????

Your light is fading quickly my friend and then you will be ECLAT-i-OFF. Now that would not be good.

Please, Jack, if you can't play nice, nobody will want to play with you anymore.

Dear Susan

You are right; for a Christian, the main thing about Christmas is the birth of Christ. Everything else is just background buzz; maybe you might like some of it; maybe not. But there is nothing to be done about it; it is a socio-economic phenomenon of gigantic proportions, completely beyond the control of any human agency to adapt or maniputlate.

Christmas just happens.

There is the tree-thing, and the cards-thing, and the outdoor-deocration-thing, and the baking-thing, and the lights-thing, and the gifts-thing, and the parties (for the love of God, all the parites, with more and more fattening stuff to eat), and then there is the Santa-thing, and the Creche-thing, and then there is church, and the special programs and pageants, and Christmas concerts, and more social goings-on than all the rest of the year combined! (gasp)

I try to go along, and do as much as I can. But you know, as I get older, I do less and less, and don't mind or worry. It just all happens, and I let it wash over me, and then recede, till things go back to normal. I don't do all those "things" that I listed above; you have to have alot of money and alot of engery to do all those "things."

I just go along, do what I can, hope for the best, and soon, it's Christmas, and the next thing you know, it is January, and Christmas is just a collection of flashy memories.

Dear JJ

We all know it is you; your style is unmistakable; I hope you are feeling better. Don't worry; things will be ok. You could start using your name again, or a variation on it; I am not certain, but I don't think the Washington Post bans people from these threads; they just censor or delete comments occaisionally, that go over the top.

"Christians no longer have a nativity theology, we have a “black Friday theology”. Unless Christ turns a profit for us, the American economy shows a net loss."

I wonder then what you think, Ms. Thistlethwaite of the shops that are now selling 12 inch Jesus dolls and other biblical figurines. Sort of the 'if you can't beat them, join them' mentality at work there.

I heard about that and I thought of my Barbies with no hair (i'd actually burned it off as a kid) and wonder how Jesus would be played with.

"PAGANism" is not a Religion.." said by our Prez, Mr. G.W. BUSH, from the Executive Branch. But on the Other Hand,

The Local Fed Court(s) only see Wiccaan(s) in 'Sincerity' form and thus must be 'nice' in respect of the Pagan(s) trying to put "the People' to a 'religious Test' of the Provoking kind!

Amrica & this 'Holy Cosmic Space-Ship, of which Momma Poppa NEBULAE begott Us & U.S. et al, and so [today!, aka APOCALYPSE now, ya ya.] needs less RELIGION , un Sweet Sweet U.S. of A., and thus more APOCALYPTARIAN HUMATES that 'must-replace:

ALL, EVERY & ANY "Pre-Apocalyptic Ancient Religions & of their Man made old folk Lores & man made [zero Fiat-Lux made] EPOCHS!

ABOLISH, All Forighn 'Stae Sponsored Religions in Sweet Sweet U.S. of A.!

EMBARGO, ALL Greek & Roman "Ancient State-Religions" [i.eg., PAGANism, Catholicsm, Protestantism, Pentecostism, CHARISMATICS? etc..!]

WE "the People" need LESS foriegn Religion in AMERIC, never More!

WHEEREFORE: For same reason The U.S. Gov can restrict & minimized the Holyt Cosmic American Cosnstitutional right to file for a "HUMATE WRONGS against a HUMATE RIGHT via the 'HABIUS CORPUS"

Then the U.S.A. Government 'shall restrict & lessen respect for Imported & Forign "NOT MADE IN AMERICA , as RELIGION (system(s)!

Kick or Abolish-out all foerign Religions on Space Ship & start in Sweet Sweet America 1st!

CATHOLICS 1st, since they are the richest of them All on Earth, & the biggest MURDERERS of Earth!

HISTORY isd O.U.R. JURY! Ya Ya! Do not be in denial!

Christianity, like most major religions of the world, have borrowed December 25 from Pagan sun worshipping belief systems that came before them. Dec. 22 is when the rising sun stops moving south in the sky. Dec. 25 is nothing more than the day when it generally appears to start moving back north in the sky. This date, along with the miraculous virgin birth, the 12 diciples, the death and resurrection, and many other points of christianity have all been borrowed from more ancient religions. Christmas is based on a myth, thus it has no true meaning. It only means what you want it to mean. The vast majority of America has decided it all about consumerism. More power to them. If you disagree with that, fine. Opt out. Celebrate your myth anyway you want. Just quit giving this day more importance than it has garnered.

Susan T: "the wonderful and mysterious narrative of how it is that God was born"

"Mysterious narrative" is a long way from "true story" but I bet believing Christians who read this will think that's exactly what you mean.

I know you can't possibly mean that -- you're too accomplished of a biblical scholar to think that.

You know that even if there were an actual Jesus, the birth story itself was added to the gospels much later and is completely based on earlier pagan myths (e.g., Mithras, Osiris, Horus). I wish that scholars who are so quick to publicly agree on the likelihood of Jesus’ existence were just as likely to collectively and publicly agree that Jesus’ birth story is myth.

How soon before something like that happens?

If your christian commitment is strong enough to withstand that kind of information, why not share it with other Christians?

LEE:
**I am not all that put out by the supposed hi-jacking of Christmas by the commercial world. As mentioned, we Christians have other blessed seasons where we are left undisturbed. I already have mentioned Advent. There also is Lent (I doubt we have to worry about anyone trying to steal that one from us). And, finally, and most importantly of all, we have Easter, which, to me, is the actual "most wonderful time of the year."**

I for one, am certainly not interested in your Lent. Self-deprivation has never struck me as an act of worship.
As for Easter, you do realize that those colored eggs and chocolate bunnies are fertility symbols associated with the goddess Oestre (roots of the words "estrus" and "estrogen").

Reverend Thistlethwaite's suggestion to find another date for Christmas is worth considering. I appreciate that, in raising the subject, she reminded us of the season of Advent. The Christian calendar is rich in liturgical seasons (many not given much attention in some denominations -- to their loss, in my opinion). When its meaning is understood, Advent is one of the more joyous and theologically stimulating of those seasons. Yet, it seems to get lost in the rush to cobble together those things mandated by our secular Christmas Day celebrations. Even we Christians are prone to forget that the days before Christmas Day were meant to be a time of quiet and reflection on the miracle that soon is to be celebrated.

Possibly, Reverend Thistlethwaite, while truly wishing it could be otherwise, made her suggestion somewhat tounge-in-cheek. Truth is , I doubt if there is the slightest hope of persuading both the faithful and secular in our society to give up such a old and treasured tradition as Christmas Day on December 25th.

But, suppose we could. Note, whenever I refer to December 25th, I carefully call it "Christmas Day," not just "Christmas." There is a reason for this: Christmas itself is a season of 12 days, each abundant in meaning. Possibly, we could join with our Orthodox brothers and sisters and focus our celebrations on January 6th, the final day of that season. If we could move the gift-giving until later, maybe we again could free ourselves to contemplate the wonders of Advent and savor every blessed day of the Christmas Season that follows.

Then again...maybe that just would give business 12 more days to try to sell us "stuff" -- to expand the advertising and sales offerings to fill the time allotted.

Oh, well. I do not deny that I enjoy some of the more secular aspects of the Holiday Season. And, why not? I also am careful not to let it intrude on my enjoyment of Advent and Christmas. I don't have to let myself be ruled by what goes on around me...and, neither do you.

I am not all that put out by the supposed hi-jacking of Christmas by the commercial world. As mentioned, we Christians have other blessed seasons where we are left undisturbed. I already have mentioned Advent. There also is Lent (I doubt we have to worry about anyone trying to steal that one from us). And, finally, and most importantly of all, we have Easter, which, to me, is the actual "most wonderful time of the year."

Blessed Advent and Merry Christmas to all.

Rev. Susan Brooks Thistletwaite,

Surely not! Early or late January for possible new Christmas date and day? It might not be a good time for me even if I'm not a Christian nor American as:

- Christmas, on 25 December, is currently during the long school holiday break here which is equivalent to the long US summer break.

- 25 December to 1 January (Christmas to New Year) afford most an opportunity to take leave from work to have vacations with their family.

- Celebrations for Christmas and all those great shopping sales gives everyone, Christians or otherwise, an excuse to ask for and give out early year-end bonuses in December.

It will never be universally adopted to have Christmas on any other date. Even Muslims would object.

Yes, Christmas is fundamentally about the birth of Jesus and what he means for us.

Thanks for all your essays in On Faith in this past year. I read them all.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to your family and you.

Thank you and best regards

"J"

"Most Pagans have sex among themselves, ya ya!"

Really? Then I must be in the wrong group of them.

JJ, is that you?

I like the idea of moving Christmas to late january, except that it would then conflict with the only true American religious holiday: SuperBowl Sunday

Most Pagans have sex among themselves, ya ya!

Anonymous:
Pagans are Gay!

Yes, there are gay Pagans, but the sex and relgion discussion is on another thread.

Anonymous:
Pagans are Gay!

Yes, there are gay pagans, but the sex and relgion discussion is on another thread.

Pagans are Gay!

God said he looked upon America today and said be filled with joy, be filled with peace be filled with gladness for your holiday seasons are upon you. And God said he looked upon the regions of the Midwest and He said will you not lead this nation as the Bible belt will you not lead this nation for Christ, will you not celebrate His glory this Christmas and say to this nations, Christ is what this season is all about? Forget about the reindeer, forget about the snowmen forget about Santa, forget about the elves, but remember Christ the virgin Mary and Joseph who held that Child in the manger. Is he your best friend says the Lord, for if you keep him as your friend He says I will no longer call your servants I call you My friend. Will you listen to Him today as he talks to you about California He says in California they will celebrate Christmas like never before. There will be new movies coming out during the holiday season even on the TV networks as they talk about Christ which will surprise many as they talk about Christ the babe in the manger.

http://jcudell.blogspot.com/

For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 2:17

Really? No Christmas Service? At a Mega-Church?

What is a 'mega church' if not a abomination of the worship of a messaiah who gave more than he physically possessed, owned nothing and washed the feet of the poor?

Call the sales fest X-mas and let Bill O'Reilly find a new horse to beat.

Hey, at least when they make it a consumerist holiday, they also change up from calling Pagans and secularists 'Commies' to blaming us for their own consumer excesses, as if we were the ones who owned Wal-Mart.

Still the same claiming to be 'under attack' when they aren't allowed to disenfranchise everyone else completely.

"What kind of Christians cancel worship because it falls on Christmas day?"

That's a very good question!

I think they are the VERY same Christians who:

-are upset over "Happy Holidays", and "X-mas"

-KNOW who is in Heaven and who is in Hell

-KNOW who is going to hell

-are SURE it is NOT them

-get to sit in judgement of others and pay lip- service to "hating the sin"

-can leave their fellow man dying in a ditch and still go to Heaven as long as they pay lip-service to repentance of sins they simultaneously claim they are not exempt from, but don't actually commit like other people do

Again, a VERY good question!

When a Holy Day and the Sabbath collide on a single day, by what Christian reasoning does this mean watch church on video and share no fellowship with the Christian community?

The commandments removed from the courthouse did not command "Keep holy the sabbath, unless it coincides with Christmas"!

FOR SHAME!