Religion for Adults

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Ms. Thistlethwaite below note is for your review and every body else:

Rick,Gerry,Steve Holgate & many others with Reason, sensible questions and comments:

I liked your note Gerry its reason vs superstition and not Islam Vs Christianity or others. For you i advise to see below comments of mine.
Rick, you asked about Hell and Havens and told about population comparison. For you my dear, we are only responsible for our own actions. At the end good deeds and bad deeds were never rewarded equally and never will be(though in appearance you find injustice), logic tells! My believe tells i have the responsibility to seek KNOWLEDGE of world as well to reach the truth, other wise i will left ingorant and end up in hell. (If you are sincere enough you will find the answer of ALL the questions that hinders you and create doubts- ANSWERS ARE ALL OUT THERE!!)
Steve Holgate, dear you talk about lack of scientific proof, I suggest you to also read below comments carefully!!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. AND AS A FACT MUSLIMS KNOW THEY WERE REVEALED BEFORE DISCOVERED AND FURTHER ON TOP OF IT THAT NOT A SINGLE VERSE OF THEIR HOLY BOOK IS IN CONFLICT WITH ANY LOGICAL/SCIENTIFIC APPROACH (INFECT EVERY TIME SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES PROVIDING PROOF IN FAVOR OF THE LAST REVELATIONS), MAKE THEM MORE FOCUSED / PRACTICING /FUNDAMENTALIST OR WHAT EVER OTHERS THINK ABOUT THEM and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...SIMPLY APPLY THE SCIENTIFIC RULE OF PROBABILITY....What if 80% of Qur’an is in conformation with 100% of Science and 20% of it is beyond humans comprehension then logic says it would be also correct, if not now then in future...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

PLEASE COMMENTS ARE NOT NECESSARY WITHOUT VARIFICATION / RESEARCH OF THE ORIGINAL TEXT AND AUTHENTIC TRANSLATIONS BY ONLY MUSLIM SCHOLARS TO AVOID ANY TWISTING AND DECEPTIVE TECHNIQUES IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Jesus (Isa) A.S. in Islam, and his Second Coming
by Mufti A.H. Elias
I. Jesus (A.S.) In Islam
Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, AS GOD PROMISED TO PRESERVE IT TILL THE LAST DAY FOR ALL OF HUMANKIND, UNLIKE SACRED TEXTS OF OTHER RELIGIONS WHICH HAVE MULITPLE VERSIONS AND ARE "REVISED" PERIODICALLY BY MAN. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator.
What the Holy Qur'an says about Jesus:
They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157)
Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) himself told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). In the Bible, Jesus (A.S.) says,
IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. AND I WILL PRAY TO THE FATHER AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER THAT HE MAY ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER.
(Bible, John 14-15/16)

BUT WHEN THE COMFORTER IS COME, WHOM I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME, AND HE ALSO SHALL BEAR WITNESS, BECAUSE YE HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING.
(Bible, John 15-26/27)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, FOR HE SHALL SPEAK NOT OF HIMSELF, BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, that he shall speak, AND HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you.
(Bible, John 16-12/14)
Ulema (learned scholars in Islam) have said that the person who is described by Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) to come after him - in the above verse - does not comply with any other person but Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).
In this case, the "comforter" he mentions is none other than Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his laws and way of life (Shariah) and Book (Holy Qur'an) are those that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) asks his followers to abide by.
THE "PERSON" WHOM JESUS (A.S.) PROPHECISED WILL COME AFTER HIM, IS CALLED PARGALEETA IN THE BIBLE . THIS WORD WAS DELETED BY INTERPRETERS AND TRANSLATORS AND CHANGED AT TIMES TO "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" AND AT OTHER TIMES, TO "COMFORTER" AND SOMETIMES "HOLY SPIRIT." THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND ITS MEANING IS "ONE WHOM PEOPLE PRAISE EXCEEDINGLY." THE SENSE OF THE WORD, THEN, IS APPLICABLE TO THE WORD MUHAMMAD IN ARABIC, SINCE MUHAMMAD MEANS "THE PRAISED ONE."
Jesus (A.S.) also says in the Bible,
... AND A LITTLE WHILE AND YOU SHALL NOT SEE ME; AND AGAIN A LITTLE WHILE, YOU SHALL SEE ME BECAUSE I GO TO THE FATHER.
(Bible, John 16:16)
... and the Holy Qur'an says,
And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158)
As such, Muslims believe that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) was raised to heaven. According to Hadith, he is on the second heaven. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam=Peace be upon him) mentioned, "During the Meraj (Ascension), I met Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) on the second heaven. I found him of medium stature, reddish white. His body was so clean and clear, that it appeared as though he had just performed ghusal (ablution, cleansing of the entire body) and come." In another Hadith, Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) mentioned to the Jews that, " Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) is not dead, he will most surely return to you before Qiyamat (the Day of Judgement)."
May Allah Guide all people to the Truth. Aameen.

Ms. Thistlethwaite this note is for your review and every body else:

Rick,Gerry,Steve Holgate & many others with Reason, sensible questions and comments:

I liked your note Gerry its reason vs superstition and not Islam Vs Christianity or others. For you i advise to see below comments of mine.
Rick, you asked about Hell and Havens and told about population comparison. For you my dear, we are only responsible for our own actions. At the end good deeds and bad deeds were never rewarded equally and never will be(though in appearance you find injustice), logic tells! My believe tells i have the responsibility to seek KNOWLEDGE of world as well to reach the truth, other wise i will left ingorant and end up in hell. (If you are sincere enough you will find the answer of ALL the questions that hinders you and create doubts- ANSWERS ARE ALL OUT THERE!!)
Steve Holgate, dear you talk about lack of scientific proof, I suggest you to also read below comments carefully!!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. AND AS A FACT MUSLIMS KNOW THEY WERE REVEALED BEFORE DISCOVERED AND FURTHER ON TOP OF IT THAT NOT A SINGLE VERSE OF THEIR HOLY BOOK IS IN CONFLICT WITH ANY LOGICAL/SCIENTIFIC APPROACH (INFECT EVERY TIME SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES PROVIDING PROOF IN FAVOR OF THE LAST REVELATIONS), MAKE THEM MORE FOCUSED / PRACTICING /FUNDAMENTALIST OR WHAT EVER OTHERS THINK ABOUT THEM and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...SIMPLY APPLY THE SCIENTIFIC RULE OF PROBABILITY....What if 80% of Qur’an is in conformation with 100% of Science and 20% of it is beyond humans comprehension then logic says it would be also correct, if not now then in future...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

PLEASE COMMENTS ARE NOT NECESSARY WITHOUT VARIFICATION / RESEARCH OF THE ORIGINAL TEXT AND AUTHENTIC TRANSLATIONS BY ONLY MUSLIM SCHOLARS TO AVOID ANY TWISTING AND DECEPTIVE TECHNIQUES IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Jesus (Isa) A.S. in Islam, and his Second Coming
by Mufti A.H. Elias
I. Jesus (A.S.) In Islam
Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, AS GOD PROMISED TO PRESERVE IT TILL THE LAST DAY FOR ALL OF HUMANKIND, UNLIKE SACRED TEXTS OF OTHER RELIGIONS WHICH HAVE MULITPLE VERSIONS AND ARE "REVISED" PERIODICALLY BY MAN. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator.
What the Holy Qur'an says about Jesus:
They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157)
Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) himself told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). In the Bible, Jesus (A.S.) says,
IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. AND I WILL PRAY TO THE FATHER AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER THAT HE MAY ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER.
(Bible, John 14-15/16)

BUT WHEN THE COMFORTER IS COME, WHOM I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME, AND HE ALSO SHALL BEAR WITNESS, BECAUSE YE HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING.
(Bible, John 15-26/27)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, FOR HE SHALL SPEAK NOT OF HIMSELF, BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, that he shall speak, AND HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you.
(Bible, John 16-12/14)
Ulema (learned scholars in Islam) have said that the person who is described by Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) to come after him - in the above verse - does not comply with any other person but Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).
In this case, the "comforter" he mentions is none other than Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his laws and way of life (Shariah) and Book (Holy Qur'an) are those that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) asks his followers to abide by.
THE "PERSON" WHOM JESUS (A.S.) PROPHECISED WILL COME AFTER HIM, IS CALLED PARGALEETA IN THE BIBLE . THIS WORD WAS DELETED BY INTERPRETERS AND TRANSLATORS AND CHANGED AT TIMES TO "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" AND AT OTHER TIMES, TO "COMFORTER" AND SOMETIMES "HOLY SPIRIT." THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND ITS MEANING IS "ONE WHOM PEOPLE PRAISE EXCEEDINGLY." THE SENSE OF THE WORD, THEN, IS APPLICABLE TO THE WORD MUHAMMAD IN ARABIC, SINCE MUHAMMAD MEANS "THE PRAISED ONE."
Jesus (A.S.) also says in the Bible,
... AND A LITTLE WHILE AND YOU SHALL NOT SEE ME; AND AGAIN A LITTLE WHILE, YOU SHALL SEE ME BECAUSE I GO TO THE FATHER.
(Bible, John 16:16)
... and the Holy Qur'an says,
And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158)
As such, Muslims believe that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) was raised to heaven. According to Hadith, he is on the second heaven. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam=Peace be upon him) mentioned, "During the Meraj (Ascension), I met Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) on the second heaven. I found him of medium stature, reddish white. His body was so clean and clear, that it appeared as though he had just performed ghusal (ablution, cleansing of the entire body) and come." In another Hadith, Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) mentioned to the Jews that, " Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) is not dead, he will most surely return to you before Qiyamat (the Day of Judgement)."
May Allah Guide all people to the Truth. Aameen.

There's a Nirvana lyric that goes, "Just because you're paranoid / doesn't mean they're not after you."

Some above atheists mock SBT for calling Hitchens out on his immature hostility.

Just because she's engaging in an ad hominim attack doesn't mean he's not a pissy little sissy.

If Hitchens wants intellectuals to take him seriously he should start with intellectual arguments rather than ridiculous, unsupportable, and hyperbolic invective.

Peace,
RT

Susan,
You can't refute what Hitchens actually says, so you resort to name calling, and call him chidish.
Sometimes it takes a child to see that the Emperor has no clothes.

You wrote:
"I will take these atheists more seriously in their “argument with faith” when they actually take the time to acknowledge me and others in my liberal Protestant tradition. Until that time, my honest assessment is just this: grow up."

While I don't recall Hitchens saying much aout liberal protestants, Dawkins and Harris certainly do.

The problem with "moderate" and "liberal" Christians is that they don't take the Bible seriously. You pick and choose which bits you think are actually true and which bits are childish myths. It's hard to argue with moderates because they don't have a consistent story to argue with. You already understand that the Bible is not the Word of God, but you cling to a religion that is not based on the Bible or on reality. Your God is not the God of the Bible, it's just a modern fiction.

Trying to argue about God with a liberal Christian is like arguing with someone who tells you that he keeps a large pet dragon in his garage. You tell him you looked and you couldn't see the dragon. He says "Well of course not, the dragon is invisible". You say "But you have two cars parked in there, there's no room for a dragon.", and he says "Well the dragon has magical powers and it can change size, so when the cars are parked there it makes itself very small". You can't argue with someone who just makes stuff up without requiring evidence, and picks and chooses facts or Bible verses to support their story and ignores everything else.

Regards,
Realist

TO CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED AND THE REST OF HUMANITY: Don't worry one day everyone will know that Jesus was speaking the Truth when He said, "I am the Way, the Truth and The Life, no one comes to the Father except thru Me". If you would notice He didn't say anything in that statement about the ways to Him or the Holy Spirit did He? Take care, see you in the Kingdom. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

And Thomas the Moses of the NT has the Truth and nothing but the Truth because God revealed it to him. Hmmm, other prophets typically were contacted by "pwtfft"s or burning bushes or talking clouds. Thomas is there a "pwtfft" we should be made aware of?????

TO HUMANITY: It doesn't matter what anybody believes because Truth is Truth whether people believe it or not. Science is a quest for the truth of the created world, the universe, whatever is made out of matter or whatever you wish to call it. There is more to reality than our senses, even with the help of the most sophisticated machines that we can come up with, will ever perceive. I guess you could almost equate this with the old apples and oranges thing. This is for some of the people that call themselves christians: If God was anything even remotely like what you think He is, what a horrible, egotistical, hateful, vile being He would be. God is actually a Being of Pure Love and His Plan is for All of Humanity to be in His Kingdom of Pure Love. Being a christian is carrying on the work begun by Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, remember when He said, "Come follow Me", He did tell us, "I have overcome the world", "All power and authority has been given unto me". Remember we were given a choice and we chose satan, the deceiver, the liar, the thief, and I might add the loser. God actually put everything on the line for us, humanity-His children-His rational creation, and one day we will all know it. Knowing God's Name does not mean you are a christian, it just means that you know His Name and from what I have read on many posts of people claiming to be "chritian" that is about all that they know about God, His Name. Have you ever thought about the six days of creation and how Jesus said that night is coming when no man can work, well those six days are God Days, how long each one lasted, I don't know but the night of the sixth day will come but also the dawning of the seventh day will also get here, the new heavens and the new earth. Does this sound kind of simple, remember God said that He would send the simple to confound the wise, He wasn't kidding. Another thing that Jesus said was, "In those days people will be crying out, 'Lord, Lord' and Jesus will say, I do not know you", so as you see there is more to being a christian than knowing God's Name. The True Living Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. It is important what you do and why you do it and also what you know. We have free will and we are responsible for what we do. Jesus said, "Judge not", Forgive everyone", "The measure that you judge with will be the measure that you are judged with". Think about it. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

A non-essentialist & non-reductivist but nonetheless historically informative definition of 'religion' would have been helpful - - -

X is a religion if X has at least a majority of the following characteristics: . . . . . . . . .

Otherwise claims about the vices or virtues of religion-as-such or a particular religion are worthless and only invite self-serving defensiveness from the so-called "faithful" of all "faiths", religious & non-religious, naturalist & non-naturalist, X & non-X!

As it was once well put, all of us live by "the substance of things unseen, the evidence of things hoped for", that is, that part of each person's web of beliefs in which we each, respectively, put our ultimate trust, only to be vindicated or not by living by those beliefs.

A non-essentialist & non-reductivist but nonetheless historically informative definition of 'religion' would have been helpful - - -

X is a religion if X has at least a majority of the following characteristics: . . . . . . . . .

Otherwise claims about the vices or virtues of religion-as-such or a particular religion are worthless and only invite self-serving defensiveness from the so-called "faithful" of all "faiths", religious & non-religious, naturalist & non-naturalist, X & non-X!

As it was once well put, all of us live by "the substance of things unseen, the evidence of things hoped for", that is, that part of each person's web of beliefs in which we each, respectively, put our ultimate trust, only to be vindicated or not by living by those beliefs.

Hi, Im from Melbourne Australia.
The fact of the matter is is that conventional exoteric religion that Susan advocates is very much about the mommy-daddy good-luck Parental Deity.

1. www.aboutadidam.org/readings/parental_deity/index.html

People like Dawkins and Hitchens quite rightly cannot subscribe to such a childish and essentially infantilizing "god"-idea.

Reinhold Niebhur's statement is simply an assertion - where does he show that “the Doctrine of Original Sin" can be proven empirically." ?

Perhaps a more interesting line of thought is whether there has ever been a culture that has not had some set of "external/internal" beliefs that from a reason based viewpoint cannot be proven.

If not, then one might make the supposition that some type of non-provable set of "beliefs" are essential to the development of the human species. Right or wrong, good or bad, is irrelavent. Is it essential?

Bob Baer

If understanding the "true" meaning of the bible requires vast amounts of contemporary scholarship (and took thousands of years up until the nineteenth century when you "rejected" all the ridiculous stuff in it), well, that's not a very glowing review of your magic sky fairy's communicative abilities. Why go to such lengths to extract a coherent, relevant, and defensible morality out of a book you cannot prove in any way to be divine? Your problem is that all of these complex issues we grapple with as humans need no recourse to any god or any spiritual text whatsoever to be salient to our daily lives. The main point, as I see it, is that faith in the religious sense of the word is never necessary, and often dangerous, so we're better off proceeding without it.

Rev. Thistlethwaite calls Mr. Hitchens' religion a straw man, but that is to ignore the focus of his atheistic campaign, which is mainly directed against the fundamentalists among us. Obviously, Mr. Hitchens knows that he cannot rid the world of religion, but he will at least try to diminish its influence.

Her argument that her form of Christianity does not deserve his attack is also a fallacy, because the current, mostly pragmatic and non-violent Christianity that she adhers to is not a necessary or unavoidable result of Christian theology. It is simply the latest guise of this religion, imposed on Christians by a society that is no longer willing to take orders from religious leaders. If Christians do not regulate every aspect of my life, it is not for lack of trying, or of the desire to do so. I am simply fortunate to have been born in a time and a place where they no longer have the power to oppress me.

"Me wonders":

If the flaws in all the foundations of contemporary religions were fixed, would there be any "gods" or "god reps" left??????? Jesus would definitely be downgraded to a well-meaning preacher/peasant.

And Mohammed, he would be downgraded to the warmongering, womanizing, plagiarizing, and hallucinator that he was.

After spending a half hour reading the hundreds of posts in response to Hitchen's entry, yours is by far the most direct and complete response. It's a shame that you only have seven posts right now, as others would do well to read yours.

That said, I would encourage Rev. Susan to read and comment to the myriad of articles under Hitchens. Some of them are considerably more interesting than the original posting.

Happy hunting!

After spending a half hour reading the hundreds of posts in response to Hitchen's entry, yours is by far the most direct and complete response. It's a shame that you only have seven posts right now, as others would do well to read yours.

That said, I would encourage Rev. Susan to read and comment to the myriad of articles under Hitchens. Some of them are considerably more interesting than the original posting.

Happy hunting!

After spending a half hour reading the hundreds of posts in response to Hitchen's entry, yours is by far the most direct and complete response. It's a shame that you only have seven posts right now, as others would do well to read yours.

That said, I would encourage Rev. Susan to read and comment to the myriad of articles under Hitchens. Some of them are considerably more interesting than the original posting.

Happy hunting!

whenever somebody raises objections to religion, especially christianity, based on the completely inerrant text as trasmitted directly from god almighty himself, the faithful always start waving their arms and screaming "that's not what it really means" or "we don't really believe that part anyway."
how about you guys get together and decide which parts of your bronze age fairy tales we're supposed to take seriously and then we'll get back to demolishing your fantasies.

Petulant children complain of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and other inquisitous places constructed to instruct the damned of their iniquity by engineering their torment. How like spoilt children! I AM 50 YEAR OLD MUDTYPE MAN WHO THROW THE WORD *BOY* BACK INTO YOUR ADAMANT FAITH. Children are credulous and you decieve them.

Sadly, Rev. Thistlewaite, you and your Congregational tradition are in the vast minority in this country, where about half the population rejects evolution in favor of literal creationism, and thereby rejects a thoughtful, contemplative approach in favor of fervent science-bashing. So I fear Mr. Hitchens teachings are substantially more relevant than appears to you. If only you had brought a majority of the population with you the last 100 years, but you left them behind.

Susan, you must be really threatened by Hitchens to dismiss him via pseudo-psychoanalysis of his childhood religious experience. You’re usually way more sophisticated than that. Haven’t you ever noticed that clever children can recognize BS much better than adults?

Mr Mark – thanks for posting the courtier’s reply – it’s so appropriate here.

Norrie Hoyt – what a clever child you must have been!

Sorry, the url above s/b:

http://richarddawkins.net/article,463,The-Courtiers-Reply,PZ-Myers

Rev Thistlethwaite offers her version of "The Courtiers Reply." (here: http://richarddawkins.net/article,463,The-Courtiers-Reply,PZ-Myers)

Well, at least we've moved on from Pascal's inept wager...

I haven't read any of Christopher Hitchens's books, and I gather he's a pretty prickly character, but his nine-year-old's reaction to the religious teaching of Mrs. Watts sounds identical to my six-year-old's reaction to the religious teaching of my Congregational Sunday School in 1941.

Christianity made it on to my Not-To-Do list back then and has stayed there ever since. I gather it was the same for Mr. Hitchens.

From which I conclude that he can't be all bad.