Looking for God in Calcutta

I did not find Mother Teresa's private spiritual despair to be the least bit unusual. If we become one with the poor, stand in solidarity with their suffering, as Jesus did, and as Mother Teresa did, then we risk losing our self. Jesus said it was in losing the self that we find God.

None of us will leave behind a perfect witness at the end of our lives. Our struggles, when honestly made known, are like bread for beggars for all those who would heed the gospel and follow Christ. We learn from them.

I agree with you Susan, the love of self is the greatest challenge of faith, particularly as you take the call of the gospel and the cry of the dispossesed seriously.

I much prefer Mother Teresa's witness to the gospel to that of self-proclaimed bishops driving Bentleys preaching financial prosperity. I prefer Mother Teresa's witness to that of mega-churches who dwell so long in praise they ignore the poor. I would choose Mother Teresa's way over a thousand multi-million dollar corporations who fashion a god whose chief end is the elimination of homosexuality and abortion.

For an imperfect vessel, an extraordinary amount of love flowed through her. Perhaps it teaches us that if we persist in love we will be rewarded with a certainty of faith in the end?

Susan, you say, "The professional atheists are crowing, of course, for they see in this stark contrast between the inner and outer Mother Teresa a confirmation of their view that all faith is a lie."

Really? Can you provide one example of professional atheists "crowing" about MT's lack of faith?

and how do you define crowing and how is it different from Christians proclaiming the glory of God?

Would you dream of saying that Muslims crowed about Allah? or even that Republicans crowed about George Bush? or that women crowed about taking jobs away from men?

Please Susan, You seem open-minded, but your disdain for atheists is showing.

Hi, Richmond: Well, on this:

"The fact that people hear different things from him doesn't faze me, since I am sure people hear different things from YOU on a day to day basis and it doesn't prove that YOU don't exist. Part of "corporate discernment" (Google it!) in Christian circles is looking for the places where God does speak to us all in the same or similar way. When this happens, it serves as a assurance that we are hearing God speaking. Synods and other occasions are also places where you hear people talk about discerning God’s will or discerning how god is speaking on a certain issue."

I'd say that's a good idea, only thing is, all these places only listen to other Christians seeing things in the same terms as all those other Christians throughout history: there may be a lot of *people,* but they are all systemically-limited to coming up with basically the same thing, and you have to share certain presumptions to get in in the first place.

In fact, the reason most Pagans *don't* see the Bible as authoritative in any way, is in fact *because* it constructs a worldview completely at odds with the vast majority of *other* viewpoints: to wit, it only listens to itself, through however many mouthpieces, and how people deal with it, well, good luck with all *that* juggling.

My little thing I say about faith and belief has implications: If you have enough 'faith' to not *need* to 'know' what to 'believe' in the first place, you're *free* to know what you can, cause you aren't afraid of 'believing' the 'wrong' thing any more than you're *afraid* of anything else.

Pagans consider our *beliefs* to be good because they *work,* and they challenge and teach and inform and strengthen us... we value the perspectives of others because of a very similar idea of discernment: there may be many different names and faces and ways of the Gods, but the *real* faith I see in almost every one of my people is this:

That, in fact, we're free to find our ways *without* the sort of metaphysical-gun-to-the-head mentality of 'Faith must be *in* what this book says, even when all science, experience, and other viewpoints directly *contradict* it.'

I know Christians see non-Christians as a chaos of contradictory beliefs that conflict with each other because the Divine's many faces are seen to mean utterly-different worlds.

No, it's just not like that. Actually, you guys are the oddballs with the radical claims about 'ultimate reality,' really.

In fact, it's your *belief in belief as the most important thing in the world* that both obstructs *faith* and getting along with everyone else.

You think, in essence, that you 'know something,' ...not just something, the 'only thing for everyone.'

I think it cripples *both* reason and faith, when taken to that extent.

Now, I've got every reason to believe I got a lot of Good Information, but I don't fear for those who disagree.

So many Christians come to the door, projecting that existential terror in an attempt to scare you into thinking like them, "What if we're wrong?"

...But to have that terror, you have to have a *belief* that being "Right" in what you *believe* is *essential to not getting your soul's behind fondued for ever and ever.*

Believe it or not, that's pretty much just a Christian and Muslim bag.

Now, I've been through a lot of lifetimes and maybe believed a lot of things. Got through somehow. :)

Got faith enough that if, as I expect, things aren't what I expected, then that'll be fine, too. And maybe more interesting than all this stuff we hammer at each other with. :)

Simple fact *is* that the *good* parts of Christianity, and, I hope, *anything,* aren't *unique.* Wisdom is wisdom. Exclusivist claims to it, though, just don't hold up, and that's why the rest of us mostly seem to hear you guys being mean and arrogant, trying to both control *and* scare the Hel out of everyone, all while patting each other on the back how nice and righteous you are.

Maybe that kind of discernment just needs a bigger scope for some of you, is all.

See what I mean?

As a Pagan, I get called an 'enemy of faith' a lot. Nah. It's just some of your *beliefs, mostly *about your beliefs, in fact,** that cause a lot of the problems.

Have a little faith. :)

PP: First I want to say kudos on your reponse to Ashley.. "Belief is thinking you know something. Faith is not needing to." Those are wise words and I agree with that explanation.

Second I want to repond to your comment to me about the stars and prayer: The ultimate point of prayer is spiritual connection to God. It's like dial-up. It's direct communication/connection with the divine. In that sense, there's no reason for God to execute some form of cosmic semaphore from outer space to communicate... especially when he is imminantly and immediately accessible. The fact that people hear different things from him doesn't faze me, since I am sure people hear different things from YOU on a day to day basis and it doesn't prove that YOU don't exist. Part of "corporate discernment" (Google it!) in Christian circles is looking for the places where God does speak to us all in the same or similar way. When this happens, it serves as a assurance that we are hearing God speaking. Synods and other occasions are also places where you hear people talk about discerning God’s will or discerning how god is speaking on a certain issue.

It seems to me if God wanted to communicate through the stars or through making the rocks cry out, he would do so, but the reality is that there are other ways to hear/see God and most people willfully ignore the voice of God in their lives regardless of how he speaks to them.

As for the Bible... it is the product of thousands of years of God speaking to humanity through natural and supernatural events. Discerning God-followers recorded these events as testaments to the providence and character of God. These 66 records (collectively known as the Bible) serve as arrows or monuments that record our history and point towards how life can be lived in God’s presence. If you think that the Bible is unreliable, well... I can't singlehandedly convince you otherwise, but I don't have to sit here and assent to claims that nobody has ever seen God do anything. We have, and when I say we, I mean the “cloud of witnesses” (Google it!) that came before us.

Yoyo: God never does anything ever, huh? What about cosmogony? What about continuity of ontology?

As for Theodicy, people have been thinking about this question for a long time, and come to other conclusions. Your philosophy is “S%&* happens therefore there is no God” and my philosophy is “S%&* happens for a reason.”

Your logic is “people have believed in gods for all of history, but they were all entirely wrong and I (Yoyo) am totally right.” My logic is “People have believed in gods for all of history, and they were partially right… we are constantly refining our understanding of the one God as we spiritually mature and grow in understanding.”

I am not saying Christians are immune to ignorance and malice ... but I will say that it seems to me that on these forums there is a lot of willful ignorance and mocking what you don't understand about Christianity. If people were a little more open minded about Christians I think you would see that there is truth and goodness here. Yeah we have our retarded "true believers" but we also have a lot of sincere people who try to live out the Love of God in their lives. Ignore the hype -- Believers are not all bad.

Peace,
RT

RT Stallgiss

You have to turn yourself inside out to explain why god never does anything,anytime,anywhere,ever.
Never answers prayers,or even bothers to listen to them,never prevents tsunamis,or earthquakes,or floods,or tornadoes,or famines,or droughts.
Siamese twins are born joined at the head,African babies are sometimes born with diseases that eat their faces off before puberty.Why? God could fix it just by lifting a finger.And if he existed,I am sure he would. The simplest explanation is the obvious one.
There is no god. People have been making up gods since the beginning of time. Mythology is littered with them. Its what we do.
That's why god never does anything.He can't because he aint and never was.

Strange reasoning, Richmond:

Doesn't fit with the Christian rationale.

Particularly when "praying" doesn't guarantee you get anything like your Bible out of it.

By your reasoning, and particularly if your creator-God was too busy to 'order the stars' in a way other than he supposedly *did, anyway,*

...then wouldn't you think that people who pray and get different 'answers' were of equal merit, given they're following the same 'simple procedure?'

Or do things get too complicated for you, again, there? :)

Do you know how long it would take to line up the stars some twinkly night to spell out anything? It seems to me that would be a tremendous waste of time. If I were God I wouldn's waste my time giving pep talks from far away. I would create humanity so that whenever they want to meet they could close their eyes and clasp their hands and connect with me (the creator of the Universe) through quantum physics.

If you are looking for a cosmological sign in the sky, you can join the others waiting for December 21, 2012 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baktun ) but as for me, I will just pray, thanks.

-RT

If God wanted to talk to us he could line up the stars one twinkly night and spell out something like "Hello Folks,its me God.Just wanted you to know that I really am here,in case anybody had any DOUBT about that.Keep the faith.Love ya!Bye..stay in touch"
That would take an awful lot of stars but I'm sure God could do it,if he really wanted too.
Or he could write a message across the blue sky using clouds. Or he could come on TV and surprise us all.Or phone.
Why does he keep himself hidden?Why do we have to die before we can see him? yeah.Why does he just hang out with dead people? Its all very suspicious if you ask me.I wouldn't be surprised if it was all made up anyway.What kind of god never shows up anywhere anytime ever.Except maybe 2000 years ago when magic and miracles were happening and nobody had a camera to record it all.Pity.
I really wonder about this stuff sometimes.
It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Seeker, yes, you're right, if God wants to speak to us, He does not have to send a Son or Prophet. He could have made the trees speak, He could have sent a letter, He could have delivered the message Himself. He could have done any number of things, and all through human history, He has revealed His messaage to us in various ways. Why did He send His Son? Not because of some limitation in His power, but because of our limitations in understanding. I believe He sent His Son as a concrete example of how we are to live. He delivered the message in a way that we could understand (and even at that, we do not fully comprehend it !) Why do humans think that they are so intelligent, so wise, so insightful, that if God Himself appeared to us, we would instantly comprehend the incomprehensible? He could also have "stuck" His message in a fully developed form in our heads and hearts, but then where would our free will be? We have the free will to accept or reject His message, if He implanted it in us, He would be in a sense revoking our free will. No, God did not "need" to send us Christ, WE needed Him to send us Christ and God answered that need.

Seeker

You are on the right track. I was brought up Catholic. In my teens I began to doubt the divinity and perfection that Christians associate with Jesus. By the time I reached my mid-twenties I lost all belief in what I now call Christian superstition. I am now what may be termed as a secular Christian. My Christianity seeks to better the lot of my fellow humans rather than worry about the nature of God and what his alleged message was or is. Jesus was a good but a flawed man, assuming his historicity is true. I still attend church as I enjoy the liturgical aspects of worship. I agree if God wanted to talk to us, he would not need a Son or Prophet to convey his message to us.

" Ashley :

"Faith is defined as an unquestioning belief."

That's how people *say* faith is... like it's 'believing so hard you can no longer think otherwise.'

I have a different definition of faith and belief, for better or worse:

Belief is thinking you know something.
Faith is not needing to.

We will never know if there is a God. But we can agree on the type of God we could accept. Here are some attributes that would be desirabel in God. I am using "He" for convenience sake.

1) He would be beyond prayer and worship. Needing to be prayed to and to be worshipped is indicative of a egotistical God, even an insecure God.

2) He would expect us to be good to each other, help each other. An acceptable attribute.

3) If He wanted to send us a message He would not use Sons or Prophets as His media. He could appear to all of us simultaneously and convey His message.

4) He would not allow misery, especially the type that kills innocent children by the thousands, example the tsunamis not too long ago.

I direct this to SBThistlewaite, oh she of the pretentious and too long name, of the safe middle class way of American life, safely guarded by the ivied halls of academe, protected for decades as minister of a church she does not dain to preach for, never dirtying her hands in such a far off and destitute place as a major Indian city-finding that another- who did take it on herself to live an alone life, up to her elbows in blood, tears, feces, urine, and phlegm each day, should ,following the death of such a one, find it in her own skinny soul to launch such an attack- you, saint of no church and professor of excess verbiage-tell me how has your 'expertise in contextual theologies of liberation' wrought for one instant a More compassionate and less painful way of life for but one individual in the murky back streets of Chicago, let alone any other distant land - the hypocrisy is yours , and yours alone. I profess no organized religion, though they may have once had validity, all of their organized elites have long since become simply the money changers in newer temples. You are no doubt one of them.

Dorothy Day, the founder of the Catholic Worker movement, was a contemporary of Mother Teresa. She stressed that Christ said, "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me." That means the poor are not symbols of Christ, nor do they put us in mind of Christ. It means they are Christ! Jesus IS the poor.

In helping the poor, Mother Teresa simply did (heroically) what all Christians are asked to do: find God among the poor (poverty in all its forms!) and love. In doing so, you will find you also help yourself. You rebuild the social contract broken by human failure.

Mother Teresa's sisters can be found right here in Washington. Look them up and go volunteer. See what you think.

The old bag was as superstitious as the fools who think the pope has something to offer besides pope-soap-on-a-rope @ $9.95 each...she trolled up millions for the poor but let them stay poor so the contributions would keep coming...saint, my a$$

Why not consider this question; which is purly logical for religious persons; Is it possible to find God with your own efforts? if He does not want to reveal himself on that person.

Very first objective of religion is to recognize God Almighty correctly and to believe in the True God. Because if the very first step is not right, for example, if a person believes in a bird, or an animal, or in other material things, or a human being, as god, then there can be no hope of his treading along the straight path in his further progress towards God. The True God helps His seekers, but how can a dead god help the dead ?

Why not consider that MT belief about Jesus was wrong?

"Faith is defined as an unquestioning belief. "

Wrong. Faith is a journey, not a fixed place. And you really don't know the path, nor exactly where you will end up. If you can think at all, you will doubt.

Has anyone considered the notion that MT may have been suffering from depression? I don't know much about the disease, but the feelings she discribes seem to me sound more like symptoms than issues of faith. Perhaps depression made her unable to feel joy in the world, to feel alone, to feel God was distant. I think if she did suffer from depression, it is truely an act of amazing faith she kept doing what she did even though she could not feel God's prescence or joy in her life! Maybe she didn't feel that God was with her, but He certainly was! She could have been unable to participate fully in society, but God made her useful and she comforted a lot of people even though she herself could not be comforted!

I too think it would have been tragic for Mother Teresa's letters to be destroyed, and am looking forward to the publication of the book, "Come be my Light."

Just reading a sampling of her writing brought tears to my eyes as I felt her deep longing for the very core of our Being. I found her expression of longing to actually bring closer the experience of the Divine within. I do not think it would have diminished her in any way to have publicly expressed the longing, though there was probably no need to air the doubts in that manner.

Such longing is part of a grand mystical tradition which includes such Saints as Rumi (followers of Islam please note!) and St John of the Cross.

Ashley states: "Faith is defined as an unquestioning belief. In the strictest sense, Mother Theresa did not have faith. Instead, what she had begun to glimpse, as Yoyo points out, is the truth."

You present a "straw man" that even your childish argument can knock down.

Faith is defined as an unquestioning belief. In the strictest sense, Mother Theresa did not have faith. Instead, what she had begun to glimpse, as Yoyo points out, is the truth.
Faith is the beginning, a childish blindness, which is natural. Next comes doubt, creeping and gnawing. Yes, of course she had reason to doubt; the things she saw were awful. What comes after doubt depends on the person. Some choose, as Mother Theresa apparently did, to try and banish the doubt. Some succeed and sink deeper into the blindness of faith. Others, like Mother Theresa, remain paralyzed because their doubt is too frightening to cope with. Still others probe their doubt and find it is not doubt, but rather, it is truth. Whether you retain your blind faith or find truth, I feel most sorry for those who are paralyzed.
Mother Theresa and I agreed on almost nothing. I admire her work with the poor and admit her faults. She went about her work backwards, in my opinion, but most of all, I pity the torment she must have suffered, torn between truth and faith.

I still think that Mother Theresa showed the greatest degree of faith (I'm not religious, nor Catholic!). Had Mother Theresa completely lost faith, she would have quit working with the poor and gone off perhaps to enjoy the sun in a quiet villa. She witnessed more pain, suffering and agony in a week than most people would see in a life time. That in itself would constantly tear at one's belief that God is good, loves us, and looks over us. Also, as a Catholic nun, she endured her life without a partner or husband to help her through the worst of times, and to share emotional and physical intimacy.

I don't go to church, I don't like religious dogma, nor the fact that the entire bible is so patriarchial. But, I still believe in God - one God for all of us. Killing and wars over God and religion are the greatest hypocrisy, the greatest evil and tragedy.

Mother Theresa was clearly attempting to "be strong" for others. Others needed her to be so. That is a deep form of giving. Theoretically, is there hypocrisy there, yes, but clearly she made choices and lived in the harshness of those choices.

As it is, Mother Theresa was human, after all.

Mother Teresa was onto something.
Deep down she smelled the truth,there is no God.
For many of us,that's no problem.We get over it,
and get on with our lives.
For Mother T,however,it was different.
she had invested in the God delusion,thinking
and hoping it was the real deal.but it was not.
She built her whole life on a dream of heavenly
reward for helping the downtrodden,then,because
God never showed up,it dawned on her that maybe
after all,God was fiction. O cruel fate! I am undone!
They say there's never a policeman around when you want one,
well its even worse with God.He's never around period.
People continue to starve to death,or drown in floods,
or are washed away by the thousands in tsunamis,
or are buried by the hundreds in earthquakes
whether there's a God or not.
The Big Guy simply doesn't get involved.
And the Mcann family who lost their little girl,
and sought the popes help.But,of course,the pope
is just a man in funny clothes,and can do nothing
except wave his hands around and mumble strange phrases.
Mother Teresa had every right to expect her God
to show up in some magical way,or to at least make a sign
or something to acknowledge her sacrifices.
Her faith taught her that God was real,and that Jesus lives.
Then if so,why,after all her good work,did God and Jesus simply ignore her?
Not because they didn't care.But because Gods
exist only in the imagination.

We do not believe in a week God, the one which on one hand is All-Powerfull, All-present and on the other hand can not even grant his recognization to a humble one who apparently spend all his/her life in that search. There are only few options.

1. The path you have selected to recognize God mutullay between you and God is wrong. You are on a wrong trail while hiking in this world.

2 There is no God.

How can we accept if there is a God and He is All-Mercifull, All-Compassionate but He does not bestow his glimpse on the Mortal.

When I applied for non-degree courses after my Masters, I have to sign a decleartion with University that If I ever decided to pursue PhD afterwards, then non-degree courses would not be counted toward PhD.

You have to declare your intention, clearly.

In case of God, He always guides his servants, who want to be guided. He always bestow them with His presense, to those who do not miss his signs, to those who while using their intellect and other capabilites are willing to "submit those to one God" whenever they found that they are treading on a wrong path.

Remeday for gaining belief in God is glorifying the God, and not a mortal slave of Him.

[15:99] But glorify the Lord praising Him, and be of those who prostrate themselves before Him.

[15:100] And continue worshipping your Lord till you be bestowed with certainity (about his existance with clear signs)

Unfortunate is end if it happens the way of Mother Teresa.

[17:73] But whoso is blind in this world shall be blind in the Hereafter, and even more astray from the way.

Glory to God alone, and not to a mortal slave, who died and is buried on the Ground. That is, Jesus son of Marium, God be pleased with him.

This "hypocrisy of the worst sort" is also known by another name ... sin.

I don't expect nuns and priests to be without it, but .. I generally don’t really expect them to make them public. As a good Cathoilic I am sure Mother Theresa confessed these and other sins to her co-laborers.

What I don't expect is for anyone (priest or not, public or not) to publish their deepest darkest confessions in public … at least while they are alive.

Sin is a natural part of being human, but too often in the mainline, we are hesitant to encourage confession because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or make them 'feel guilty’ about our fallen state. This makes SBT's essay particularly intriguing... is she really saying that public religious leaders ought to regularly make public confession?

If this is her thesis, I happen to agree with her, especially within the UCC. Our leaders have a lot to repent for, and (as with George Bush) I have never heard them repent in public.

Unless she is a hypocrite, I think SBT should get the ball rolling. Let the UCC leadership confession begin!!!

Peace, with Justice,
RT

Lately I have come to know a God active in the awful; perhaps Mother Teresa didn't find God's fullness and joy in the slums because God's fullness and joy is not in the slums. This is to say, I believe in a God that responds to suffering with a compassionate presence, but it is rarely an overwhelming one. Particularly in the face of absolute despair, and the evils perpetrated on the poor by the rich, I don't expect God to appear in an exuberant way. I believe God is there in the emptiness and despair, but it doesn't feel that much difference from emptiness and despair.

To only encounter the face of God that is about loneliness, and to continue to serve the poor of the world: this seems somehow noble to me, and not necessarily about self-denial.

Maybe I'm a Quietist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quietist

David
somefolks.blogspot.com

Thistlethwaite rants: "What is truly tragic, however, is that Mother Teresa never expressed these doubts in public while she was alive."

What garbage!

Why would someone express their personal struggles with faith with anyone other than with their close friends and family?

Would you like a public "jerry springer" confessional for this woman who devoted herself to God and the poor?

Or is this just an extension of your anti-Catholic bias?