Keeping Secrets: The Laity, the Latin Mass and the LA Settlement

contrary to susan thistlewaite's opinion (which by the way is in no way supported by history) the tridentine liturgy of the catholic faith is over 1700 yrs old and codified after the "revisionist" 16th century deformation heresy and schism product by wonderful men like martin luther, the rabid jew hater and jew baiter (much admired by adolf hitler). then there was calvin and his deflated theory on predestination and as he was know at the time, the lunatic of scotland john knox, who today would be institutionalized as a sociopath. indeed the 16th century was a reactionary and revisionist century but the revisionism was not the catholic church but the schismatic and bloody protestant deformation. if you think it wasn' t bloody then i need to remind ms. susan about bloodthirst "reformationists like henry the 8th, cromwell and lizzy 1. NO SUSAN THE REACTIONARIES WERE NOT THE 2000 YR OLD CATHOLIC AND EASTERN ORTHODOX churches, it was contrary to your rose coloured take on history, politically motivated that moved bloodthirsty authors of the so-called reformation who reacted. actually with the return of the latin (tridentine liturgy) orthodox seminaries, churches convents and abbeys are filled to overflowing with predominately young catholics between 15 and 50. thanks to the so-called reformation there now exists over 20.000 protestant denominations and sects, so who susy is the reactionry and who is the wave of the future. the days of the leftist prelates and pink seminaries with their child molesting prelate-enablers and priests is over, the real catholic church is back--thank-God--- shalom

contrary to susan thistlewaite's opinion (which by the way is in no way supported by history) the tridentine liturgy of the catholic faith is over 1700 yrs old and codified after the "revisionist" 16th century deformation heresy and schism product by wonderful men like martin luther, the rabid jew hater and jew baiter (much admired by adolf hitler). then there was calvin and his deflated theory on predestination and as he was know at the time, the lunatic of scotland john knox, who today would be institutionalized as a sociopath. indeed the 16th century was a reactionary and revisionist century but the revisionism was not the catholic church but the schismatic and bloody protestant deformation. if you think it wasn' t bloody then i need to remind ms. susan about bloodthirst "reformationists like henry the 8th, cromwell and lizzy 1. NO SUSAN THE REACTIONARIES WERE NOT THE 2000 YR OLD CATHOLIC AND EASTERN ORTHODOX churches, it was contrary to your rose coloured take on history, politically motivated that moved bloodthirsty authors of the so-called reformation who reacted. actually with the return of the latin (tridentine liturgy) orthodox seminaries, churches convents and abbeys are filled to overflowing with predominately young catholics between 15 and 50. thanks to the so-called reformation there now exists over 20.000 protestant denominations and sects, so who susy is the reactionry and who is the wave of the future. the days of the leftist prelates and pink seminaries with their child molesting prelate-enablers and priests is over, the real catholic church is back--thank-God--- shalom

TRUTH OR TRADITION - WHICH MATTERS TO YOU?

Pope: Sunday Worship a "Necessity" For All
September 17, 2007 | From theTrumpet.com

Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday.

"Sine dominico non possumus!" "Without Sunday [worship] we cannot live!" Pope Benedict xvi declared during a mass on September 9 at St. Stephen's Cathedral in Vienna.

Speaking on the final day of his three-day visit to Austria, the German pope voiced a strong call for Christians to revive Sunday keeping as an all-important religious practice.

"Give the soul its Sunday, give Sunday its soul," he chanted before a rain-soaked crowd of 40,000.

Benedict said that Sunday, which he stated has its origin as "the day of the dawning of creation," was "also the church's weekly feast of creation."

Warning against the evils of allowing Sunday to become just a part of the weekend, the pope said people needed to have a spiritual focus during the first day of the week, or else leisure time would just become wasted time.

Sunday worship, he warned, was not just a "precept" to be casually adhered to, but a "necessity" for all people.

In the opening greeting, the archbishop of Vienna said a movement in Austria had been initiated to protect "Sunday from tendencies to empty [it] of its meaning."

In Austria, most businesses are restricted from operating on Sunday. However, some business groups are pressuring the government to be allowed to open, a move Roman Catholic groups vehemently oppose.

During Benedict's trip to Austria, he called for Europe to look to its Christian roots, to trust in God and to defend traditional values.

The pope has been very vocal about Europe's Christian-or Catholic-roots, and is pushing to have them included in the European Constitution. Although laws concerning Sunday worship are currently determined by individual nations, look for the European Union to eventually gain jurisdiction over the work week-which is one big reason the Catholic Church is so intimately involved with the evolution of the EU. For more on the Catholic Church and Europe, read "The Pope Trumpets Sunday" by the Trumpet's editor in chief. .

-----------------------

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (the return of Christ), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exaltheth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4

"If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church."--Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the cardinal in a letter of Feb. 10, 1920.

Does the Papacy acknowledge changing the seventh-day Sabbath? It does. The Catechismus Romanus was commanded by the Council of Trent and published by the Vatican Press, by order of Pope Pius V, in 1566. This catechism for the priests says: "It pleased the church of God, that the religious celebration of the Sabbath day should be transferred to 'the Lord's day.'--Catechism of the Council of Trent (Donovan's translation, 1867), part 3, chap. 4, p. 345. The same, in slightly different wording is in the McHugh and Callan translation (1937 ed.), p. 402. "Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays? "Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church."--Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p. 58. (Same statement in Manual of Christian Doctrine, ed. by Daniel Ferris {1916 ed.}, p. 67.) "Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept? "Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority." Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism (3d ed.), p. 174. "The Catholic Church,...by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."--The Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893. "Question: Is Saturday the 7th day according to the Bible & the Ten Commandments? Answer: I answer yes. "Question: Is Sunday the first day of the week & did the Church change the 7th day--Saturday--for Sunday, the 1st day: Answer: "I answer yes." "Question: Did Christ change the day? Answer: I answer no! Faithfully yours, "J. Card. Gibbons"--Gibbons autograph letter.

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for the doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9

Receiving the mark of the beast or the seal of God in the mind or the hand is not a literal "mark" to be put on our foreheads or our hand but it is our consent to whom we will obey. "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey? Romans 6:16

Hello, nice site :)

Hello, nice site :)

The Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite, President of Chicago Theological Seminary should stop with the tap-dance and be more forthcoming with the fact that she is an anti-Catholic bigot. Yes "Rev." it shows quite clearly.

Authorization for celebrating the Tridentine Mass has existed since 1988 under Pope John Paul II's Ecclesia Dei. Her feeble attempt to link the celebration of the Tridentine Mass and the horrific pedophilia scandal is beyond outrageous. She should apologize to all Catholic Christians who had the misfortune of reading this sordid article.

Shame on you "Rev."

Matthew Chirac

The Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite, President of Chicago Theological Seminary should stop with the tap-dance and be more forthcoming with the fact that she is an anti-Catholic bigot.

Authorization for celebrating the Tridentine Mass has existed since 1988. He feeble attempt to link the celebration of the Tridentine Mass and the horrific pedophilia scandal is beyond outrageous. She should apologize to all Catholic Christians who ha the misfortune of reading this sordid article.

Unless your Catholic, this shouldn't even be discussed. I think the rest of the Christian denominations have their own problems to attend to...did Protestants totally ignore the NYTimes article about sex abuse insurance claims among their flock?

The attractiveness of the Latin mass to some Catholics is that it brings a sense of tradition to the mass...something is very important to Catholics and other more orthodox religions.

This coming from someone affiliated with the UCC which continues to crash, burn and lose members.

Too, too funny.

By the way, madam, its not "the Latin Mass." The Novus Ordo of Vatican II can also be celebrated in Latin. Its the rite, not the language. The Motu Proprio concerns the Tridentine Rite.

You might want to educate yourself before writing about something you obviously know little about.

Susan Brooks needs to take her career more seriously by studying all about the Latin Mass before she writes un-called for comments and opinions on the Roman Catholic Church's liturgy. We Catholics have been waiting 40 yrs. for this Mass to be recognized since it was never abrogated in the first place. So our 40 yr. wait happens (as she asserts) because of the clergy crisis in the US. Wrong! Please refrain from promoting a subject that Susan knows nothing about and stick to the offshoot community, one amongst a thousand others, she adheres to.

Dear co-worker in Christ,

Greetings in the great and powerful name of Jesus Christ.

My name is Imran Bhatti and I am serving God since 1988. I belong to Christ Revival Church, which is situated in Lahore, Pakistan. There are three to five percent Christians in Pakistan. It means about 3 million people are Christians. There are four provinces in Pakistan and most of the Christians live in the province of Punjab. The literacy rate in Pakistan is very low and about 70 percent of the total population lives in villages. Therefore most of the illiterate persons are found in villages. In most of the areas, people are very poor so its very rare that you found a family where everyone have his/her own Bible. As there are millions of uneducated people in Pakistan, so they don’t know how to read or write. That’s why I have a vision to provide an audio Bible in Urdu language.

In previous years of my ministry, I have experienced the Biblical truth that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word Of God. There are many, many souls, millions of un reached people and I want to reach them by the grace of God to share the Gospel of Christ. Up till now significant work on audio Bible in Urdu (Pakistani) language, has not been done. As most of the people are illiterate so they can’t read or write and people can only grow spiritually, only by listening the word of God. So audio Bible is an effective mean to help them.

Even audio Bible is not available (in physical stores) in English language, in Pakistan. There are some people, including a few pastors and church leaders who can understand English and they are longing for audio Bible in English. As they couldn’t find it in Urdu. But they don’t have access to such a treasure.

My vision is that I may provide an audio Bible in Urdu and make it available for Pakistani nation. I know that I am not having a small vision. But I also know that our God can provide all our needs. As He provided everything needed for tabernacle and temple, He can provide all the resources to build His temple in the hearts of people through His word. I also know that He work through His people. So kindly let me know, that how you can be effective to fulfill this vision.

Yours in Christ,
Imran Bhatti
(Director Sunday School
&
Bible Teacher,
Christ Revival Church,
Lahore, Pakistan.)
heaven3_ct@yahoo.co.uk

Susan Thistlethwaite appears unaware that the Catholic Church held Masses in Latin as far back as the fourth century, after which it gradually became the norm. She also appears unaware that the Second Vatican Council in no way did away with the Latin Mass; it merely took the same and similar prayers and structures, with adaptation to national customs, and put them in the language of the local people (among other things). One would hope that a friend might have saved her some embarrassment and pointed this out to her.

These realities would be inconvenient to the thesis of her article, but perhaps it would be best to start from a standpoint of truth and reality, and just see where those take us. In any event, one should familiarize himself with history before he takes it upon himself to write about and draw conclusions from it.

Dear Ms. Thistlethwaite:

I read with interest your lecture to the Catholic Church in the Washington Post blog site. As someone who belongs to a community that has lost over 50 percent of its members since 1960, you are in no position to get preachy with Catholics. Moreover, the relaxation of norms regarding the Latin Mass is none of your business: sticking your nose into the internal affairs of the Catholic Church smacks of hubris. Furthermore, the contrived nexus you offer trying to tie the Latin Mass to predatory homosexual behavior is illogical.

The Catholic Church is growing by leaps and bounds. Perhaps if you studied our success you would be less defensive about your community. You may even learn that any church, including communities like yours, that assimilates to the norms of the dominant culture is bound to go south. While we can all agree that it is a tragedy what has happened to your community, it does not excuse your sophomoric outburst.

Sincerely,

William A. Donohue, Ph.D.

President

Dear Dan Mathews and Ryan Haber,

Thanks you for the references, and I have started reviewing your recommendations. They seem pretty good!

Funny how God works. This contemptuous, bigoted anti-Catholic smear (Latin mass = protection for pedophiles) promulgated by a vicious anti-Catholic, anti-Christian rag (the Washington Post) has led me to the truth (unbiased news media) through the grace of people of good will.

Thank you Dan and Ryan, and all you other people in this blog who stood up against this know-nothing psuedo-intellectual bully and her media outlet whos screed seems to be nothing more than an update of Maria Monk.

Thistlethwaite is an ignorant "scholar" with severe anti-Catholic bias in all of her essays...

End of story.

Mr. Stallgiss,

Thank you for your solidarity in Christ. It means a great deal. God bless you for it.

--

J Daily,

I follow the BBC a lot. It certainly has its own bias, but at least it is a different bias, and is not so obviously hostile to Christianity. Also, I do a lot of second-guessing the media and trying to read between the lines. A great example is the war in Iraq (toward which I have ambivalent feelings and ideas): they report it as a spectacular failure and have since day one. Yet all the unrest that they report seems (at least for a long time it did) to happen in just a few regions: Baghdad, Anbar, Fallujah, Basra. One wonders why they would not report unrest in other regions if it were operative there as well. See what I mean?

For different topics, I check on different websites, too. Voice of the Martyrs has a pretty good set of resources about the persecution of Christians in the non-Western (and Western) world, for example. Aid to the Church in Need provides similar reports, but focusing on the Catholic Church in Africa and the Middle East.

God bless.

The writer's attempts to tie the Latin Mass together with sexual abuse is really a stretch, to put it mildly.

Is she not aware that there are plenty of institutions in society -- ones with no Latin Masses, or any Masses at all -- that also have sexual predators in their ranks? I'm talking schools, daycare centers, summer camps, kids' own families and neighborhoods ... the list goes on and on.

The writer also makes it seem as if the Latin Mass is being forced on the entire Church as a strict requirement. Hasn't she read that the Latin Mass is only being made available as an OPTION? And hasn't she read that it's not expected to be celebrated widely, as many priests today (particularly younger ones) don't even speak Latin?

Most Masses will remain in the "vernacular" languages; the Latin Mass is only being made more available as an option. Anyone who opposes this idea can hardly call him/herself a proponent of diversity. Isn't diversity all about having different things and different options?

I read with interest your lecture to the Catholic Church in the Washington Post blog site. As someone who belongs to a community that has lost over 50 percent of its members since 1960, you are in no position to get preachy with Catholics. Moreover, the relaxation of norms regarding the Latin Mass is none of your business: sticking your nose into the internal affairs of the Catholic Church smacks of hubris. Furthermore, the contrived nexus you offer trying to tie the Latin Mass to predatory homosexual behavior is illogical.

The Catholic Church is growing by leaps and bounds. Perhaps if you studied our success you would be less defensive about your community. You may even learn that any church, including communities like yours, that assimilates to the norms of the dominant culture is bound to go south. While we can all agree that it is a tragedy what has happened to your community, it does not excuse your sophomoric outburst.

This editorial will harm Chicago Theological Seminary - What serious student would attend after this?

Why anybody would take seriously the rantings of a heretic about the Traditional Latin Mass is beyond me.

"The Latin Mass was developed during one of the most reactionary periods in the history of the Catholic Church, the “Counter-Reformation”. This was a time in the 16th century...."

Reading just the first sentence and a half of the second paragraph should give the reader a clue. The Traditional Mass goes back the the time of Saint Gregory the Great and was only codified at Trent by Pius V to consolidate and purify the liturgy.

So, I guess, at her school the beauty of the word 'theology' lies in its flexibility.

There should be no mistake - the author of the piece is the one who should GET A GRIP!

For the love of St. Peter, get a grip!

For the love of St. Peter, get a grip!

For the love of St. Peter, get a grip!

Dear J. Dailey,

I share your frustrations with agenda-driven (or in the case of this article by La Thistlewaite, bigotry-driven) media coverage. In terms of television news I generally find the Jim Leherer News Hour to present reasonable, in-depth coverage on PBS (believe it or not). In terms of print media, I live in CT, and the Hartford Courant is the most bigoted, anti-Catholic rag on the face of the planet, so I read the Waterbury Republican, which is much more balanced in its coverage (and much more respectful of the Church). I wish you well in your search.
-Dan Mathews

Michael the first -

Thanks for the references.

The fact that the Washington Post was willing to associate it's name with this psuedo intellectual "opinion" speaks volumes to me about the editorial slant of this once-great paper. Accordingly, it has become irrelevant to me, along with the NY Times, CBS, NBC and ABC.

Although I would prefer to have my news presented to me in a neat, readable/watchable package, the bias which these once-great organizations display is too virulent to ignore. I guess I will have to stumble around and ferret out trusted sources myself, since the garbage turned out by the "mainstream" is too bigoted to be taken seriously.

Thanks again

Susan,
You are plain wrong. With all your intellect and degrees, you are just wrong. The Latin Mass, a holy and blessed form of worship to God, has nothing to do with sins committed by a small number of people who are not following the rules of the Church.
That's like saying, changing the rules of playing NBA basketball shows that the NBA is trying to cover up how some players commit sexual abuse. That might not be the best example, but you have absolutely no link between the two diametrically opposed occurrences in the Church. Be careful how you lead others to believe Susan, especially in your role as a pastor. You will be held accountable by God someday for either teaching the truth, or not. Make sure that what you speak is the truth. God knows.

Personally, I get some of my news from sites like YouTube and Digg. There is also the Drudge Report. The conservative Free Republic forum has lots of articles. It's somewhat neo-conservative, but large enough that it has other conservative groups, including a sizable and active Catholic community. I can find Catholic news from the traditionalist forum, Fish Eaters, or good blogs like the aforementioned "Cafeteria is Closed" or "What Does That Prayer Really Say?"

I'm the first "Michael" who commented here, BTW, not the second one (a different one).

I am delighted to see the counter attacks against the Catholic bashing psuedo-intellectuals who seem to have hijacked the mainstream press. I am even happier to see that the counter attacks are based on facts, history and statistics.
Can any of you pro-Catholics recommend to me a good news source on the internet that I can read, not only for Catholic news, but for general news including US politics, world news, etc.? I no longer trust any of the mainstream media to portray anything but an unbalanced editorialism on any issue, given it's unreasoning excoriation of Catholicism in general, and it's refusal to recognize that terrible child abuse continues in the US, largely unabated, because they choose to focus on attacking Catholics and their Church.

This woman is a moron why would anybody actually listen to her? She isn't Catholic, nor does she likely not know that only 1.5% of all priests ever have been convicted on homosexual or pedophilic acts, which is actually less than a lot of Protestant organizations and even school teachers can say. I say again, why would anybody listen to this moron?

As a Protestant and member of the United Church of Christ, I feel compelled to to express vehement rejection of the comments and sentiments of Rev. Thistlethwaite.

It's clear she dislikes Catholicism and is using absurd claims to support her argument. The link between Latin Mass and pederasty is specious at best.

If you want to see reactionary leadership take a look at how badly the UCC has hated on its conservative members. Google Keywords: Faithful and Welcoming... Biblical Witness Fellowship... Justice and Witness Ministries... Ucctruths... Chuck Currie

Physician, Heal Thyself.

I will offer a different perspective on the topics being discussed here. Firstly in most of the world, Catholics and other Christians are not so totally absorbed in discussions about clergy sex abuse as in the U.S. In the United Arab Emirates where I am at the moment, practicing Christians have more problems with Muslims and none with pedophiles. So I think the idea that Pope Benedict giving a universal indult to the Tridentine mass and the issue of Cardinal Mahony and the priest abuse scandal is somehow directly related is absurd and smacks of convoluted thinking.

Secondly, some people like the Latin Mass. I prefer the New Mass (Novus Ordo) with some Latin. The Tridentine Latin Mass will be a stabilizing force that will complement the use of the New Mass and free style devotions.

I will offer a different perspective on the topics being discussed here. Firstly in most of the world, Catholics and other Christians are not so totally absorbed in discussions about clergy sex abuse as in the U.S. In the United Arab Emirates where I am at the moment, practicing Christians have more problems with Muslims and none with pedophiles. So I think the idea that Pope Benedict giving a universal indult to the Tridentine mass and the issue of Cardinal Mahony and the priest abuse scandal is somehow directly related is absurd and smacks of convoluted thinking.

Secondly, some people like the Latin Mass. I prefer the New Mass (Novus Ordo) with some Latin. The Tridentine Latin Mass will be a stabilizing force that will complement the use of the New Mass and free style devotions.

This article is radically anti-Catholic. Implying that the reinstituion of the Latin Mass is in any way related to the LA settlement wilfully ignores the history of the Church since Vatican II and prior to the Counter-Reformation (memo to Thistlethwaite -- the Latin Mass had been in use long before the Counter-Reformation. I strongly suggest you take some more courses on Catholic history before you post this drivel again).

As always it is interesting to see the far left like Thistlethwaite unite with the anti-Catholic far right like some of the above posters in their bigotry.

The absence of logic in this article is unfortunately indicative of the lunacy of many Protestants.

It is astonishing to me how many ignorant, frustrated, anti-Catholic bigots trot out their nitwit personal agendas every time our Church makes a decision on any doctrinal matter. For Ms. Thistlewaite to attempt to connect the dots between the so-called "pedophilia crisis" in the Catholic Church (which does not exist, see below) with the recent Papal nod of assent to the Latin Mass is an astonishing display of anti-Catholic prejudice and a nitwitted lapse of logic. There is obviously no connection between the two.

Regarding her uninformed views of the "pedophilia scandal" (seconded on this website by an angry self-identifying "Catholic" who sounds about as Catholic as Paul Blanshard), she obviously has done zero research on that subject (ditto some of the other writers on this website, who seem to uncritically accept every anti-Catholic screed they read). Otherwise she would no doubt have stumbled across the independent John Jay study and the Princeton University study, both of which clearly confirm two crucial points:
1. The rates of sexual abuse amongst protestant clergy and rabbis is exponentially higher than that of Catholic priests, as is the rate of sexual abuse by public school teachers and psychologists, and
2. 80% of the alleged victims of sexual abuse by Catholic priests are post-pubescent males. QED, this is by definition an issue of predatory homosexual behavior, not an issue of pedophilia. Pedophilia by definition refers to sexual attraction to prepubescent children. None of this is to suggest that predatory homosexuality is somehow morally defensible, but it does serve to prove that many of these self-appointed "Christian" watchdogs don't have the remotest clue what they're talking about.

Enough of poor, bigoted Thistlewaite. Now let's move on to the furious, uninformed Russ Bianchi. Half of what he says is questionable. The other half is flat-out wrong. For example, he states "The culture of sexual deviancy in the Church has not changed; any salient reader of Fr. Thomas Doyle, OP, or Dr. Robert Grant, MD (Saving The Soul Of The Catholic Church) immediately knows how bad it has been, and REMAINS." Maybe that same salient reader should look up the most recent available statistics concerning allegations of priestly sexual abuse, which show that between 2002 and 2005, fewer than 1.5% of priests were even ACCUSED of abuse (bearing in mind that many of those who are acused are not actually guilty of any wrongdoing). That makes a Catholic Church a safer place for a child to be than any protestant Church, synagogue, public school, or even private household! Bianchi at one point even admonishes the laity to hold the bishops accountable with the following reprehensible tactic: "Donate NO monies, offetories [sic], grants, loans, building funds, pences [sic], appeals, endowments, grants, wills, charities, soup kichens [sic], hospitals, schools, etc., to ANY of the ministries of the Church." Way to go, Russ. Take food, clothing, shelter, and medicine away from the poorest of the poor. That'll show 'em!

I don't think Jesus would approve of that, Russ, but I know someone else who would.

You're in my prayers, brother, believe me.

This article and so many of the comments responding to are typical conglomerations of canards and cliches used by secular-modernists to attack the Church. The Church hierarchy is too "secretive" and "insular"? This coming from trendy lefty armchair commentators who probably adore immense corrupt bloated bureaucracies like the UN, the EU, and hordes of US government deparments! The mainstream media? Academia? Please! And I wonder how accountable the President of Chicago Theological Seminary holds herself for what goes on under her watch. And how much child molestation do you think goes on in the government's public skool system? Of course, the media's never going stir a circus over that. They'll only hit the hornets nets when it involves a pre-set "target" like the Church because (a) the sorts of people who run all these elitist bureaucracies of our modernist culture hodl their own biased and (b) the dopey masses eat it up because it fits the template fed to the by that same media. Get the beams out of your own eyes, why don't you!

If you all are so interested in accountability and transparency, why don't don't you lobby for a little more accountability in the misinformation machine of the secular media that promotes this nonsense? Why don't you yourselves become a little more transparent with your hatred for the Catholic Church, which you would be hunting for reasons to bash and criticize, regardless of what scandals perverted priests and sleazy bishops can dreg up. Tell the truth: most of you, including the author of the article, hate the Church and the Magisterium anyway and you're probably gleeful over this scandal, because it damages them. Well, how fortunate for you.

In fact, the reasons so many of the Church hierarchy (note not the Church herself, which is a transcendental institution different from the men who make up her hierarchy) fell to pederasty and filth aren't the 500-year-old Black Legend chestnuts most of our brilliant modern college-educated and network-news-informed types still have bouncing around in their utterly mainstream minds. All empirical evidence shows that the reasons more have to do with the Church hierarchs foolishly trying to "update" her, make her "relevant" and "with the times" just to please folks like you. You know, because the fickle fashions of the World have such a good track record for being right all the time.

In spite of the rather original attempt of the author (who, by the way, is not a Catholic and has no more business or ability to opine on Catholic liturgy than I do on the rituals of Hinduism--but for the World, of course, it's always open season on the One, True Church--oops, was that not "inclusive" and "ecumenical" and "in the spirit of Vatican II" enough?) to directly tie the Tradition Mass together with pedophilia, the bulk of these scandals occured after Vatican II and after the introduction of the Novus Ordo Mass in 1970 (even those that came before were in the decade leading up to Vatican II, when the modernist mentality was already infiltrating the Church). At this time, the clergy was "opening" the Church to new ideas, cozying up to the modern mentality, and encouraging radical experimentalism. There were radical "ministries" for homosexuals that had less to do with saving their souls than with making them feel comfortable in their secular-society-approved sins. The abuses peaked during the period of greatest liturgical and theological radicalism, amongst the most radical generation of priests. The "Cafeteria is Closed" blog recently had an article detailing research showing just that. Furthermore, the blind eye many bishops turned towards this was encouraged by hired psychologists and counselors. You know, the sorts of folks you were probably educated in our wonderful institutions of higher education?

And as for all of you trying to use the shenanigans of Phony Cardinal Mahoney as an example of the "reactionary Church," this only further illustrates your total ignorance in these matters. Amongst Catholics who keep up with matters pertaining to their faith, Cardinal Mahoney is well-known as being one of the most, maybe the most "progressive," spirit-of-Vatican-II type bishop in the United States! He's infamous for left-wing activism (on immigration for example) and his wacky Masses with hippy-dippy liturgical dancers and loads of felt. And then there's his new cathedral, the "Taj Mahoney," an eyesore of postmodern architecture and basically a monument to himself. The previous Los Angeles cathedral, St. Vibiana's, was slated to be knocked down, before the city stepped, acquired it as a structure of historical importance and turned it into a arts centers. That's Mahoney. How many of you knew any of that? And yet you reverberate kneejerk echo-chamber bilgewater about "institutional reactionaries" like Cardinal Mahoney, a monument of ecclesiastical liberalism, thus displaying your ignorance. You sound like me if I tried to pontificate about quantum physics or Polynesian cuisine.

And lastly, the European Enlightenment occurred two centuries after the Catholic "counter-Reformation," which was a response to the protestant revolt then tearing Christendom to shreds (and, by the way, it did an fine job in "countering" it through the Council of Trent, the founding of the Jesuits, and the liturgical reforms of Pius V). And I don't think Ms. Brooks Thistlethwaite would be to keen on Martin Luther's and John Calvin's "new ideas about human autonomy and reason."

“The Latin Mass was developed during one of the most reactionary periods in the history of the Catholic Church, the “Counter-Reformation”.”

The above quote is a fine example of a Cracker Jack Box education in theology and Church history. Even a Protestant preacher should know enough that one of the signature innovations of the Protestant movement was a rejection of the Latin Mass for the vernacular language of the local people. There was a time when they boasted about this.

The reactionary period for which the present Mass is named is the council of Trent. The Council of Trent did not invent the Latin Mass nor did it radically change it. They did refine it and eliminated many of the newer (in Catholic terms newer meant less than 200 years old) Those older rites continued and were for the most part in Latin as well. We are talking about something that is 2000 years old. Trent did not develop it any more then Pope Pius X, XII or any other of the Councils.

Trent did review the Protestant movement and found it a heresy. They said so as well and they did in Latin. Just as they did in the Council of Florence several centuries earlier when the Greek Churches of the east left the Church and all the other Councils.

I wonder if the writer of this blog is more bothered by the Pope’s recent remarks that underscore a little of the Council of Florence than the Latin Mass and the Council of Trent.

This is not to be viewed as an endorsement of Cardinal Mahoney and his ilk. Most of those who praise Cardinal Mahoney are the biggest enemies of the Latin Mass ever invented (well at least since Martin Luther who was having an affair with a former nun) (Oh yes they finilly married but only at her insistance not his). And those who are the biggest backers of the Latin Mass are the biggest critics of Cardinal Mahoney and company.

Of couse to know that requires a little research in the Catholic Church past and present.

"Mahony, coward that he is, sought protection against either committing perjury or telling the whole, obscene truth of how he covered for criminal priests, or transferring the pedophiles once Mahony knew of the molestation. It's too bad that we cannot deal with Mahony and Company like the Republicans dealt with many of the clergy during the Spanish Civil War."

As much as I would like to see Mahoney get his comeuppance, it sounds like you condone what the "Republicans" (actually, they were left-wing extremists) did to priests and religious during the Spanish Civil War.

The fact that Roger Cardinal Mahony has spent almost 400 million dollars over the years fighting against the disclosure of anything the institutional church, he or is predecessors did in the collusion, conspiracy and cover-up regarding sexually abusive clergy including a number of serial pedophiles, negates any kind of apology he could possible make.

He could have settled these cases out of court years ago but he chose not to. Former Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating was right on the money with the assessment that cost him his job as as chair of the Advisory Panel monitoring the USCCB Office for Child and Youth Protection.

What he will continue to fight against will be the release of any private documents, correspondence or personnel records of known sexually abusive clergy. Hopefully, the judges in California will force the release of all documents as was done in the Archdiocese of Boston, Massachusetts.

Watch for his being kicked upstairs, I mean shipped to Rome, sometime soon. And it couldn't happen to a more disingenuous individual.

He is a disgrace to our church.

Catherine Mary Henry
catherinemaryhenry@yahoo.com
Havertown, Pennsylvania
Archdiocese of Philadelphia

The fact that Roger Cardinal Mahony has spent almost 400 million dollars over the years fighting against the disclosure of anything the institutional church, he or is predecessors did in the collusion, conspiracy and cover-up regarding sexually abusive clergy including a number of serial pedophiles, negates any kind of apology he could possible make.

He could have settled these cases out of court years ago but he chose not to. Former Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating was right on the money with the assessment that cost him his job as as chair of the Advisory Panel monitoring the USCCB Office for Child and Youth Protection.

What he will continue to fight against will be the release of any private documents, correspondence or personnel records of known sexually abusive clergy. Hopefully, the judges in California will force the release of all documents as was done in the Archdiocese of Boston, Massachusetts.

Watch for his being kicked upstairs, I mean shipped to Rome, sometime soon. And it couldn't happen to a more disingenuous individual.

He is a disgrace to our church.

Catherine Mary Henry
catherinemaryhenry@yahoo.com
Havertown, Pennsylvania
Archdiocese of Philadelphia

Ah, such Marxist analysis.
The reason that many wish for the Latin mass is twofold: One, it reminds us of 1000 plus years of Latin tradition. It reminds us of our roots.
Two: The Latin mass was one of worshipping God and reverence, not of "celebrating our personhood".

The only "link" between the Latin mass and the sex crisis was that when the "progressives" threw out the traditions that were moribund, they threw out the traditions that were wise, including the reason for self restraint in sexuality and the idea that we were to serve God, not fulfill our own desires or follow the latest psychological fads.

Russ Bianchi
Thank you for your thoughts. Like I said, a club closing ranks...The only hope for the health of the church, or even its continued existence, is for the laity to refuse to enable this club to continue in its secrecy, and to demand accountability in all things.

Since the abuse scandals in my own diocese (ever hear of the Servants of the Paraclete treatment center?) many of us have tried to increase our volunteer activities in order to compensate for no longer giving money. You have no control over funds you give them: a church in my area had collected money to re-roof the sanctuary, and the pastor donated the money to the bishop's abuse-lawsuit account.
If you want to donate, I'd suggest a Catholic social justice group called Mary's Pence.

Joseph Ratzinger was outed about 9 years ago (or so)in a multi-page, and extremely well documented piece, in the Sunday London Times (granted with an Anglican and anti Papalist bent), in the former CDF Prelate's "transfers" of both Hutu and Tutsi Roman Catholic Priests, Monks, and Nuns (in the several dozen) all with genocidal blood on their hands, to EU, and other African, parishes, convents, and monestaries, to hide theses guilty murderers, from criminal prosecution; lest the Church be embarassed.

I read the article myself, while in London on annual business.

The story was KILLED before it got to the US Press, with promises by the Church (via the NCCB) of liable suits, if it ran in the USA.

The stupidity of the then head of the CDF (Papa Ratzy now), or perhaps brazen and myopic arrogance, is a better description, was the placement of black Africans who spoke no native Italian, in country side Italian parishes, and even the Italians started asking questions, that lead to some, not all, arrested on charges of crimes against humanity by The Haig, with even a few convictions.

Ratzinger, and The Holy See diplomatic core, put the screws to The Haig, with good old fashion back room blackmailing (apparently there were several skeletons in many Eurocrats' closets), to keep the number od Rwandans prosecuted low, though many more were guilty as mortal sin.

So what does this have to do with the Teflon/Hollywood/Mahal Cardinal on Los Angeles?
Or for that matter, the reinstatement of the so-called 'Latin Mass'?

What has been, and remains, a CULT of secrecy among the Roman Catholic Curia, has indeed directly contributed to the ongoing global criminal cover up of the rape, oral copulation, Black Mass, sexual assault, physical mutilation, and sodomy of literally hundreds of thousands of children over the past 3 or 4 decades globally, by Roman Catholic deviants, protected by the Church, for fear of losing revenue, if the 1.1 Bilion laity knew the full extent of Curial complicity, and continues UNABATED to this day.

Canonically, there is no miter or red hat accountability, and this has proven true in civil as well as criminal litigation, though much gaming of the system.

After all, the Church has had a few millenia in working over judicary to their advantage.

To date, $12 Billion US Dollars (a conservative and hard estimate) has been spent in hush money, lawyers, court fees, pay offs, civil/criminal settlements, etc., globally in the last 15, or so, years (not the 50 years spun).

The $2 Billion number is also a spun, and highly under-reported one, in the USA, and is much closer to $4 Billion, as part of the NCCB's PR damage control.

Mahony alone is directly responsible for, and FULL KNEW, he was transfering hundreds of incurable criminals, to attack children again, first in the Diocese of Fresno, then the Diocese Of Stockton, and since 1985, in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

DELIVER US FROM EVIL, out on DVD, the Amy Berg Academy Award nominated documentary on Fr. O'Grady is but a minor cake walk among Mahony's long record as a CRIMINAL ENABLER.

What was the infamous quote, at some early 1990's NCCB meeting, by an out of touch miter? "No one will ever sue The Church!"

Mahony's GUILT, and overt complicity, is so DEEP, that there are still over 4 dozen known criminal Ordained assaulters on his payroll, via annuities, pensions, hush money and salaries, that Mahony personally helped flee the country, by driving them to LAX, or giving them diocese cars to cross the Mexican border, or placed them on planes to Manila and Asia, with wads of cash, and told to 'hide', and who to see, in the next diocese, for "angel help", in a sick and Satanic version of the old American Slave Underground Railroad.

Robert Brom, Bishop of the Roman Catholic San Diego Diocese (who cooked the books on false Chapter 11 filings of assets intentionally gaming the courts) has testified and sworn under oath, in a pre Chapter 11 Reorganization sodomy suit, both he and Mahony were present at a "GAY ORGY" at St. John's Seminary, in Camariilo, CA, before it was 'conviently' closed, a few years ago.

The culture of sexual deviancy in the Church has not changed; any salient reader of Fr. Thomas Doyle, OP, or Dr. Robert Grant, MD (Saving The Soul Of The Catholic Church) immediately knows how bad it has been, and REMAINS.

Any representation that the dog and pony show Chater Of Protection, trotted out as a PR stunt by the NCCB is at all being adhered to, is a total FRAUD, even in my own Diocese.

So how does this criminal morass get cleaned up when the courts, the cops, and about every other avenue of redress has failed?

A very simple and effective laity produced solution.

Donate NO monies, offetories, grants, loans, building funds, pences, appeals, endowments, grants, wills, charities, soup kichens, hospitals, schools, etc., to ANY of the ministries of the Church.

It was not sexual crminality that got major embezzler Bernie Law of Boston booted to a desk job, in only 1 of 4 Papally Designated Roman Basilicas, it was the FACT that laity revenues were down by over 75% two years in a row.

Want to get the boys across the Tiber's attention? Hit them HARD & LONG in the pocket book.

St. Peter Damien, almost one thousand years ago, remains correct, the only tool to partially cleaning up the sexual and criminal excesses of an unchecked and utterly corrupt Toman Catholic Church heiarchy, is two or three generations of no money.

There is an old Roman saying, actually predating Christianity, that went: "They (clergy) pretend to be pious, and we (laity) pretend to believe them."

This typically Romano view is no longer true, because the internet has become an EQUALIZER in the dissemination of real information, and the laity no longer pretend to believe any heiarchy, clergy, or Curia.

Respectfully submitted,

Russ Bianchi
Managing Director & CEO
ADEPT SOLUTIONS, INC. - A Global Product Development & Formulation Food, Beverage & Pharmaceutical Corporation
russ@adepthq.com
web: a 3rd party description of Adept may be found at www.ift.org under 'product formulation'

Mr. Bianchi is a lay member of the Diocese of Monterey, CA, a life long Roman Catholic, a daily Mass penitent, family man, Mass lector, Communion Service lay presider, and is not a sexual abuse victim, has never met a sexual abuse victim of the Roman Cahtolic Church, belongs to no advocacy or victim's rights groups, and is no party to any litigation with the Roman Catholic Church. Mr. Bianchi has many relatives and friends that are cloistered, monastic, secular, vocationed, ordered and Curial.

Joseph Cardinal Bernardin died in 1996 of pancreatic cancer. He was a leading proponent of a consistent ethic of life: what is often called the "seamless garment," linking opposition to abortion to other life and death issues such as the death penalty, opposition to nuclear weapons, and efforts for social justice.
His name is associated with HIV and AIDS because he established a task force to explore how the church could be helpful to AIDS victims and their families. There was a false complaint of abuse brought against him in Chicago; the accuser later recanted and Bernardin was famous for publicly forgiving the man. Far from participating in the secrecy and enabling of pedophile priests, Bernardin implemented -- without being ordered to by any civil court or church commission -- the strongest, most comprehensive policy concerning priests accused of sexual misconduct with minors. Bernardin’s reforms have served as a model for other dioceses across the nation.

Sexual abuse in the church has been much more a problem of abuse of power than of sex, although mandatory celibacy may be a factor in drawing men who are sexually confused into the priesthood. If this was just about sex the cover-ups would have been far less pervasive. This was about club members closing ranks with each other against the common people.

Lombardi:

"Brother Godfrey, you seem off the reservation, again."

What reservation is that? The Catholic reservation? I've been off that for 42 years. The truth? I have science on my side. You have nothing but assertion. Love for my fellow man? You seem to be the one who's off that reservation.

"The facts remain the same, the issue of Pedophilia and Vatican 2 are interlocked in history and time."

That's a strange assertion. I don't see the connection. Maybe you can enlighten me.

"Any attempt to piggy back this issue unto the back of the Latin Mass is frankly, all wet!"

OK, it is speculation, but "all wet!" seems a little excited.

"[T]he Catholic Church became the Church of Man and not the Church of God..."

Why? Because they decided to stop coercing belief? Because the Church was declared to be the People of God? Because the Jews were absolved of the death of Christ? Why?

"The Poster Boy for Vatican 2 as most historians would say would be Cardinal Bernadin out of Chicago. He died of AIDS."

Poster Boy is rather strong. He certainly followed the orders of the Pope, but he was more a mediator than a commanding officer. What in the world do you mean by poster boy anyway? And that he died of AIDS hardly establishes cause and effect that Vatican II brought homosexuality to the Church. It seems more to demonstrate that homosexuality was already there.

Brother Godfrey, you seem off the reservation, again.

The facts remain the same, the issue of Pedophilia and Vatican 2 are interlocked in history and time. Any attempt to piggy back this issue unto the back of the Latin Mass is frankly, all wet! The issue of the explosion of Homosexuality within the Church and Vatican 2 is also interlocked for all time as well. Why? It was the total rebellion of the entire past that took place then. In other words, the Catholic Church became the Church of Man and not the Church of God, it's no wonder these things have happened.

The Poster Boy for Vatican 2 as most historians would say would be Cardinal Bernadin out of Chicago. He died of AIDS.

I agree so much with Ms. Thistlethwaite. Secrets, secrecy, is the evil in our society.

The Catholic church has forgotten what Jesus preached.

The secrecy has become worse under Pope Ratzy then it was under John Paul II. So it stands to reason that the molesting priests have probably obtained more protection from their church than ever.

Mahony, coward that he is, sought protection against either committing perjury or telling the whole, obscene truth of how he covered for criminal priests, or transferring the pedophiles once Mahony knew of the molestation. It's too bad that we cannot deal with Mahony and Company like the Republicans dealt with many of the clergy during the Spanish Civil War.

Cutting Lombardi some slack:

OK, it was Paul VI who made the smoke of Satan remark. Obviously a slip of the memory.

I just clocked Lombardi's post. More sleight of hand: "Look! Liberals! Homosexuals! Wild-eyed assertions long ago proved false!"

Tell me, Lombardi, how do you know the sexual abuse was perpetrated by liberals? I would like to see the statistics on that.

As for child molestation being a problem of homosexuality, that's an incredible simplification with no science to back it up.

The problem is extremely complicated. To throw around a little terminology (see http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html ), there are pedophiles (adults attracted to prepubescent children) and hebephiles (adults attracted to adolescents) none of whom are necessarily child-molesters (though many of the boys abused by the priests were adolescents, rather than children). Further, child molesters are not necessarily pedophiles or hebephiles. Child molesters are frequently "fixated" (don't have an adult sexual orientation) or "regressed," (generally heterosexually or bisexually oriented towards adults).

In any case, research has so far failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Lombardi, if you are quoting Timothy Daily's article, "Homosexuality and Child Abuse," the site referenced above rebuts it pretty convincingly.

Keep in mind also that some of the people who claim abuse by priests are female.

One last thing: are you claiming that Pope Pius VI made a statement in 1976? Better check your history books. Pius VI died in 1799.

It never occurred to me that reinstituing the Latin mass was a move toward more secrecy, but, in light of the history of the Church, I can well believe it. It certainly resembles sleight of hand: "Look! Look over here at what this hand is doing! Don't look at that other hand!"

I read Ms. Brooks post and I was astounished with her lack of understanding on the issue as to the Latin Mass. I was even more astounished as she tries to tie the Lain Mass with Child Abuse, dreadful.

Ms. Brook is unfortunately very much the product of the Vatican 2 Era. For you readers who do not even understand this, it means after the Latin Mass was taken away from the laity.

In other words, much of the Child Abuse that took place during the Vatican 2 revolution and aftwards was done by the very same liberals who supported this change from the LATIN MASS TO THE NEW MASS, meaning that the very Mass the Ms. Brooks ties to Child Abuse was and is in fact, the Mass that had held this evil in check for 1,500 years.

So while Ms. Brooks talks about the supposed much needed change that is needed, I think we have all seen and have enough of this change she speaks of.

What this writer fails to mention is that this issue of Child Abuse as Pedophilia is a solely Homosexual issue, as there is a direct correlation between pedophiles and homosexuality.

The problem with Catholic Church today is rampant Homosexuality even amongst the Cardinals, Bishops and priests, worldwide. That is the issue that must be dealt with first. It is a significant impediment to the Mission of the Church.

Pope Pius VI was right, The Smoke of Satan had entered the Church, this is the early 1970's .

Children being sexually abused is horrific and disgusting. Anyone wanting to cover it up makes me want to vomit. An organization that knows very well that it would be better to have millstones tied around their necks and be thrown into the sea, rather than lead one of these little ones astray, will have much to answer to one day.