Mainstreaming the Mormons

For those saying we don't succomb to the ideas of today, you're right, we don't in many cases. In others we do. The sexism thing was handled nicely, as woman had less rights in the Bible by inspired prophets and leaders than woman have now period. Yet, they are still thought highly. As for the homosexual controversy, there have been studies that show many (not all, but many) men and women that consider themselves to be born homosexual/lesbian, there is a hormone imbalance in their brains. Look it up yourself, don't take my word for it. But that's a simple thing that can be "cured" as someone already put it. I don't condem homosexuals, or even look down on them, as I have friends that are homosexual. But the laws of God and the laws of man are not always the same. So if you don't like it, accept it. Nobody has to accept everything. People whine about not being accepted because they are homosexuals. Guess what? Homosexuals call me disgusting and wrong because I like women, hypocrites.

The "fundamentalist" segment who continue to practice polygamy are comprised of corrupt and deceitful men who seek power.
The author says that the Mormons seek to impose their religiosity on our society, I say that Mormons do not seek to impose anything on our society. However, the Mayo Clinic reports that "The benefits of a healthy marriage include lower rates of disease, a longer life span and a greater sense of well-being. Reasons include advantages of cohabitation, financial stability and strong support networks family life provides healthier". The mormon people will defend the family as the corner stone of our society. If we concentrate energy to strengthen the family unit our country better for it. What's wrong with that?

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I can hardly believe the time and energy spent bashing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

We have men and women (many of them LDS) dying for the freedoms this church practices and yet you try to smash that right by your thoughts that are not even acurate. Yhey are taken a piece here and a piece here, only to try to hurt others. I don't see where that is Christ like in any church.

If you spent the same amount of time on other churches you would find they have their own issues.

I am LDS and i pray for those men and women who serve in our military to protect our right to speech even if it is hurtful. I also pray for the leaders of the countries and other countries that they may find a solution to the hatered that travels the world. Last but not least I pray for people like some in this forum that try to tear down others.

You will not here from me again for this is a waist of time and energy that I would rather spend on helping the families of solders that might need it.

By the way i entered this sight from my church website LDS.org. If you want truth about your questions then go there and seek or ask. I certainly wouldn't ask a Catholic if I wanted to understand the Muslems.

I agree that there are no "Fundamentalist" segments of Mormonism.

Mormonism--which considers the authority of the Book of Mormon to come (more or less) directly from God, and to be absolutely internally consistent and true--is, by definition, "Fundamentalist."

I understand and support the choices of women to stay home to raise their children.

The "too many too early" comment was referring to women who, if it hadn't been for pressure from the mormon church, would have made a different personal choice. They were stressed out and over-extended, and would have chosen fewer children if they didn't believe that God would condemn them for doing so.

As for the suggestion that I'm talking of an era in the church that is long past, my story of being recruited for BYU happened only three or four years ago.

I was very active at church, and close with the bright women in my ward and stake. We had a vibrant book club where we read and discussed classic literature. And it would usually be towards the end of one of these discussions where someone would begin discussing her very private inner turmoil regarding child-bearing, education, sex, careers, etc. Thinking back on those stories now breaks my heart.

Will wrote (May 4, 2007 1:35 PM)

"I am confident that what Dallin Oaks meant when he said it is wrong to criticize leaders even if it's true, it is wrong for members to openly criticize and oppose a leader because of the threat of disorder and conflicts it could cause among different members. Even if it was true that a leader had done something wrong and there was indisputable evidence of it, it would still not be very Christian like to parade such evidence around in an open and public forum where it could cause more unnecessary damage and harm to that leader's personal reputation. Instead, such matters should be submitted to another authority in a more private forum where proper investigation and discipline action can take place."

This is an astonishing example of organizational servitude, and eerily similar to sentiments expressed by the party faithful of the 1960's era Russian Communist Party.

Church members, is Will's post representative of your thoughts on the matter?

This forum contains a number of references to church growth, including the lead-in by Susan Thistlethwaite. Hence I contribute the following, collected just yesterday for another WaPo forum. The data are from Mormon-friendly sites.

[1]
http://cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html#_Toc162146548
{An independent, pro-Mormon website}

David G. Stewart, Jr., MD {church member & former missionary}

"The rapid growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a frequent and recurring theme in the secular media.
...

A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."
--------------------

[2]
http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/tag/growth
{pro-Mormon; affiliated?}

data for year 2006
--------------------
from: Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches (2007)

Mormon Church: 5,690,672 members (North American)
church growth rate: 1.63 percent.

{US population approx: 300,000,000, Canadian approx: 33,100,000
Percentage of North Americans who are Mormons: less than 2%}

I have been reading through this post and must say that Mayan Elephant sure does have a lot of time on her hands, commenting after everyones post. If she spent half her time and energy on really productive things rather than criticizing everyone and everything the world would be a better place. If you left the church thats fine, but for someone who left the church you sure cant seem to leave it alone.

Mayan Elephant and Just One Woman:

I applaud your efforts to move forth more choices for women. Even your posts will give more women a view of what other people think.

When I commented to my sister, who is a big advocate of LDS Women's Rights, how I noticed early in life that church leaders actively tried to include both sexes in their remarks, she said, "That is because of people like me."

So although I don't agree with your views of the Prophet Joseph Smith, it is because of people like you that other women enjoy a non-discriminating church.

OOP'S IT LATE
THANKS MAYAN ELEPHANT.

GOOD NIGHT
BRUCE

Hey Burce:

Did you mean to type Bruce?

I THOUGHT THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD WEBSITE TO READ. HOWEVER AFTER READING SOME OF THESE COMMENTS IT'S SEEM THAT AS A LATTER DAY SAINT I NEED TO DEFEND MYSELF. NOT THE CASE AND WON'T. MOST OR WHAT I READ AND OPINONS GIVEN WERE BASED ON A LINE HERE A WORD THERE AND THE ONLY ONES THAT NO WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE THE ONE'S LIVING THEIR BELIEF. II DON'T SEE WHY THAT BOTHERS SO MANY. NO ONE IS HOLDING A GUN AT ANYONE MAKING THEM GO TO CHURCH. MOST PEOPLE ARE INDEED AFRAID OF THE TRUTH AND WHEN THEY HAVE THE GOSPEL THEY CAN'T LIVE UP TO WHAT THEY ACCEPTED SO THEREFORE WRITE A BUNCH OF MISINFORMED BLOGS.
GOD BLESS YOU AND THIS COUNTRY THAT ALLOWS YOU TO MISQUOTE AND LIE ON SUCH A LARGE VENUE.

Will:

For not having any comments about Smith's wives, you sure had a lot to say. That exclaimed my point very well. Almost too well. There are so many excuses and reaches to explain the why of it all, where all that really needs to be said is - Yes, that is true. For some reason you feel compelled to tell us that he did it, but there is still evidence that he is a prophet. Um, did you really think that anyone reading this, or anyone that sees you mowing your lawn on Saturday for that matter, was worried that you may no longer think he is a prophet? Why do we need that line in the sand regarding who believes and who doesn't, when all that said was that Smith had 34 wives before he died and then the church gave him 9 more.

You asked: " I am curious to know your thoughts and opinions what I have put forward in rebuttal of your opinion that God, Christ, and/or this church is sexist against women."

I did NOT say god was sexist.

I did NOT say Christ was sexist.

I said the LDS church was sexist.

Sexism involves attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender. It can also include discrimination which is more commonly applied, as you say, 'against women.' Your response shows that you read my comment as being an accusation of misogyny. While I do think that exists, it is certainly not what we were discussing. Regarding sexism in mormonism, I know that there is a promotion of roles for men and a promotion of roles and behavior for women. Why is that so embarrassing for Mormons that they cant acknowledge it without apology, or more, assigning that sexism to god or christ? And more, why is it considered an assault to point it out?

As an exclamation, you posted your thoughts about Priesthood and Motherhood. What more is there to say? Believe whatever you want, Will, but for the love of god, do not pretend that a philosophy that has Priesthood and Womanhood as compatible but separate roles, is not sexist. You cannot be a man and fit your Motherhood role and you cannot be a woman and have the Priesthood. That is sexism. It may not be misogyny in your opinion, but you cannot claim it is not sexism.

My belief in God or atheism or Krishna or Babe Ruth is not relevant. I am not saying that god is sexist. You on the other hand, admit to me that if the Mormon church is sexist, then god is sexist. The assumption there is that God is a Mormon. Not that he can't be, but, it is an assumption or faith-based belief nonetheless.

Almost the same can be said of Christ. You are assuming that he is Mormon to arrive at your assessment that I consider him sexist. That said, there is a bit more to Jesus' story. What I like about the story of Jesus, is that he was progressive. He changed a lot of stuff. He did not change everything, but he pushed a new and higher law. One that treated people much more equally than they were treated under the old laws. He moved the ball forward for all people. Though, clearly he didn't eradicate all the -isms (racism, sexism and more). I think a person or deity as radical as him, if he were alive and walking amongst us today, would be progressive and inclusive and continue to move the ball forward for all people, including poor people, sick people, women and homosexuals. Those are my thoughts, since you asked.

Your story about your mother is your story. I am not one to judge it any way. Only you know all the circumstances. I will say though that your speculation about her happiness and that it would have been greater had she stayed in a more traditional role, or in Mormonism, may have some basis in faith. Just a thought. I do not dismiss sexism simply because there is one or even a majority of women that are happy with the sexism and do not claim to have adverse effects. Nor do I claim that a single person, a minority or a majority of people, when miserable, are proof that their shared religion is sexist. The effects on people do not determine whether something is sexist. Sexism is defined simply by the opportunities and prescribed roles for all people of both sexes.

According to Thistlethwaite, "Conservative politicians and religious leaders have capitalized on fears of changing roles for women and the gay rights movement and thus both religion and society have become more conservative." Mormon leaders seem scared of women and gays. Additionally, they have commanded you and others to not criticize them, even if the criticism is true. That is not a progressive combination, but it may serve the uncriticizable leaders well nonetheless.

to so many posters:

sidetracked on the debate of working moms vs. stay at home moms.

one of the tiredest debates. where we pit women against each other. and we all loose.

the stark reality is that most working mothers do not have a CHOICE about working for pay inside or outside their homes. egads. let's not turn this conversation into a truly low and sexist conversation about what mothers should and should not do with their lives.

and to women who have a real life active choice in whether they work for compensation inside or outside of their homes - yipee! many bras have been burned for this opportunity.

oh, to make real choices available to women....

Will:

WWMED?

What Would Mayan Elephant Do? or in this case - WWMET?

What Would Mayan Elephant Type?

Can't wait to see the wise pachyderym's response to your posts....

Actually, Whitney did a great job.

While the Mormon Church may not recognize any segments or off-shoots, they exist. This does not make them affiliations. However, it does not make those groups or people non-existent just because they are not affiliated.

Have you ever stopped to wonder, why why why, does the mormon church keep saying we dont like this association with polygamy and yet, it.will.not.go.away?

It is a great question. Unfortunately, the most common responses are: Antis just say that to make us look bad, Polygamy was only practiced by a few people, God said do it and God said stop it so everyone should drop it, Mormons do not practice polygamy anymore, its not us.

The whining is nearly constant. Hell, its a standard explanation on lds.org that *those* people are not part of us, you know, *those polygamist* people.

In my opinion, the reason this doesnt go away is that it is not dealt with honestly and openly. And, the biggest reason is that it is part of Joseph Smith's legacy.

The people that read the Book of Mormon and practice polygamy are a product of Joseph Smith. Mormons will not like that. But, where the hell else can you go to find the origins of this group? Joseph Smith started the faith that produced the current form of the LDS church. He started the faith that produced the Community of Christ, the Strangites and the Polygamists that follow his polygamist example.

Whitney did very well to explain many products of Smith's life and vision, not just the one that has more temples and stuff in 2007.

The Reverend Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite states that, “‘Plural marriage’ is still practiced by the more ‘fundamentalist’ segment of the Mormon church…” With all due respect to The Reverend, THERE ARE NO “SEGMENTS” OF THE MORMON CHURCH—“fundamentalist,” or otherwise! Warren Jeffs may call himself a “fundamentalist,” but he is NOT a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (nick-named, the Mormon Church). Helen Whitney, the producer and director of the PBS documentary, “The Mormons,” missed a great opportunity to clarify that misconception—but, unfortunately, she did not.

As a stay-at-home Mom who used to work as an Electrical Engineer, I can say that it is hard to find as much praise as I did when I worked as an engineer. I think I'm left-brained, but that doesn't stop me from tending my own children.

I always said that getting my education gave me more options, not less. I have a right to stay home with my children, even though many would think it is wrong not to continue in Electrical Engineering.

Thank you PJ,
I've thought about typing up the 13 articles myself, so I'm glad you beat me to it. Nice that Glen also appreciated it.

Thank YOU Jim Hale, Well said.

Thank you Will

((((( Peace-Love-Rock M., ROMNEY, For Prez. Ya Ya Monsa Monso *

The documentary was very fortunate to have an active and life long member of the LDS church working alongside the other researchers. She was able to correct errors, bring up points of interest, steer people in the right direction, and overall, help make this presentation a balanced one, fair to Mormons and yet, full of acurate information.

As an Ex-Mormon who has been called an Anti,
and as the brother of the man who wrote the best book about religion ever,

let me state:

Mormons are Clearly in the mainstream of American religious life.

It can only be out of ignorance or bias that Mormonism is not accepted as a legitimate religion the same way that Catholicism, Baptists, Methodists are, and Islam should be.

Mormon beliefs aren't any stranger than most religious beliefs. Their members are great people and very good for the economy, as well as significantly better educated than the population at large.

I strongly disagree with their policy on Women and Gays, just as I do with Catholics, but they are certainly entitled to it, and are more like the rest of the country in this regard than not.

I think the Church is at a point where the smart members can have a serious discussion about the women and gay issues, and many are having them now. As the country is.

I've got no problem with the 13 articles of Mormon faith and don't understand why all the fuss. Romney for 2008! (subject to change if he really screws up in some debate or we find out he is hiding a couple wives out the in Utah.)

"None of the women I knew, growing up on or in college, completed much education besides me. Most women married young and had many children young, though it was clear that this was not a decision they arrived at without a great deal of conflict. I received many agonized letters and emails from devout LDS friends who were pregnant with too many children too early but were afraid to tell others how they felt."

I am one of those women that in your opinion had "too many children too early." If you don't want to be judged for your career choices then please don't judge women who CHOSE to stay home and raise children. By the way I also have a college education and am working on my masters degree and have never felt anything but support from my family and ward.

I am surprised that in all these discussions of what exactly LDS core beliefs are etc. , that the "Articles of Faith" have not yet been studied. (For those who don't know what they are you will find them below.) It, of course, doesn't cover all the complex areas of the faith, but it does give a very accurate picture of at least 13 core doctrines that ALL members of the church believe. Best of all, these are not based on my own opinions or of what someone thinks they believe, they are an actual set of doctrines that have always been taught.

"THE 13 ARTICLES OF FAITH

1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. "

Hey, where's my post? I spent an hour responding to your blog and you axed it? It wasn't out of line with any other post here. Please post it.

Well said Aiden Smith! So nice to read an intelligent, thoughtful comment from a person who obviously endevours to live the teachings of the Master.

But boy aren't there some wacko's about on these blogs !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alas, I should not be sitting in judement of others and their mental condition & capacities!

I would say that the LDS church has not so much moved into the mainstream, but that people are more aware and accepting that the doctrine and teachings of the LDS prophets are mostly consistent with Biblical prophets.
Therefore the world is adopting the faith like it has no other.
The LDS church does not control what individual members think or do, which highlights the faith of those members who represent the community in government.
A church is only as strong as its members and the LDS church appears to be increasing its strength rather than deminishing it like other Christian religions.
I predict that the LDS church will be there long after other religions have dissappeared because it holds true to the original biblical teachings and encourages good people to be better, regardless of their circumstances in life.
It expects the same from all its members and gives its members the same in return - though the more faithful obviously have the greater blessings.
There is no reason to fear the church - for if it is good it will only benefit the community as a whole.

((((((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock and ROMNEY! )))))))))))

Peter:

You said that the LDS church is definitely not a Christian church because we have in our belief system things which are rejected by modern Christian theology. I was raised in one of these "Christian" churches, and became converted to the LDS church as a young adult. The reason I did is because for the first time in my life religion actually made SENSE! The "Mormon" church stands alone as the only church that truly worships Christ to the full extent of his earthly mission. I never understood the significance of Christ in the church I grew up in. All I saw was a ton of contradictions, and found no clearly-defined truth which I was seeking. The LDS church is the only church that doesn't descend from the many and confused congregations of men which sprang up during the great apostasy following Christ's death. The Bible foretells this apostasy and that the Lord will set his had a second time to re-establish His church. Christ's true gospel has been restored by the Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith in these latter days. It is no surprise that it doesn't jive with the "Christianity" of today, or that followers of the faith are hated by the world. That is always how it has been. We must be willing to forsake the world for Christ's sake; for our faith to become strong enough to save us. Despite my initial prejudices and worldly suspicions towards this church, I have trusted the Lord and trusted my spiritual promptings and embraced this faith. I have been a member now for over 25 years, married in the temple and sealed to an eternal companion. I have had the joy of raising six children who have remained true to the faith. Through this church, I have experienced the greatest joy and peace in my life, which surpasses anything I could have imagined. Although it sometimes requires sacrifice, it is worth it manyfold. Sacrifices refine and define us and make us strong and unselfish. "By their fruits shall ye know them" is how Jesus referred to his followers. I know of no other church that exemplifies this as does the LDS or "Mormon" church. This church, whether the true restored Gospel of Jesus Christ or the greatest Fraud of history, is a work which has brought about much good in the world and in the lives of many. It is a force for right in this increasingly dark world. It is a bright beacon of hope that there is still good and selflessness in the this greedy, materialistic world. Isn't that what Christianity is all about? Why nit-pick on the details? If you open your heart and truly search with an open mind, I challenge you to find out for yourself rather than speculate and find fault. The invitation is extended to all to know for themselves in their own heart. Old-fashioned Christian values are the truth that has been lived by and accepted for millenia of the history of mankind. Now, as the last days approach, these values are under assault and people who adhere to them are considered "intolerant". Actually it is them who are intolerant, and are forcing the world to accept values which will ultimately destroy the family unit, and eventually, our whole society.

JIM
i dont care. so you are not christians in the traditional since. not my business - enjoy yourselves.
think that you are the only true path to enlightnment and paradise - good for you.
i dont care is you think god has the head of an elephant - 28 tits - and has sex with a turtle to make hippo's. not my concern.
i dont care what anyone believes - AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT ADVOCATE OR PRACTICE VIOLENCE TO ANYONE - OF ANY SEX - IN ANY PLACE - AND DO NOT FORCE CONVERSIONS OR REMAINING IN THEIR FAITH - then it does not bother me.
now all of the above my - in my religion - be considered wrong and require you to go to hell - but why should you care - you dont beleive as i do so its not a big deal to you.
so go about your business and i will go about mine and by the time we figure out which one of us is right it will be to late do do anyting about it.

John D: "It seems you speak of a Mormonism that has since passed on. Mormon women are currently in the work force in equal numbers and non-Mormon women. Mormon women are educated to get all the education they can. Most young Mormon women do have good educations. And from what I could tell at BYU, the pill is the drug of choice for recently married Mormon women."

John D, thanks for supporting women's rights. Unfortunately, the facts do not bear out your assessment of the Mormon experience for women.

In the current manual for adult instruction The Teachings of the Prophet Spencer Kimball, you will find an admonition to never engage into sex without exposing oneself to the risk of pregnancy.

That's the 2007 manual. Sexist bigotry is well and alive. And teenage women are still indoctrinated to avoid the pursuit of a career. For evidence go to the Mormon website lds.org and browse the Young Women's manuals. My main concern about being Mormon is the mindset and the mental health of my daughter.

It is true that many Mormon women work. Having children early, paying tithing, rising health care and housing costs, something has gotta to give. However, you know perfectly well that many of the working Mormon moms have to constantly justify their choice. Their righteousness is routinely questioned.

The Mormon apostle Boyd Packer said that it is necessary to make those women feel bad who have no choice but to work to dissuade those women who work for "selfish" reasons.

Those are the words of a guy who claims to be a prophet, seer, and revelator. It's disgusting and unethical but if we openly criticize him then according to Elder Oaks we ought to be excommunicated.

If we really love the church then we have to speak out about these abuses.

Beautifully said, Jim

Thankful, Will,

Thanks for your answers.

Latter Day Saints do explicitly reject the doctrine of the Trinity. In so doing they adhere to a version of Christianity that predates that traditional but incorrect doctrine.

After the death of the Apostles of Jesus, in an age of slow transportation and communication, Christianity lost its central authority. The far-flung bishops of the faith were left to their own devices as to purity of doctrine.

By 300 AD, Christians were highly divided on many issues, including the question of the nature of the Godhead. Many bishops, including the bishop of Rome held that God was three person in one -- the trinitarian view. Many others, including Arius, the bishop of Alexandria held that was incorrect, doubtless citing the many New Testament scenes in with Christ prays to the Father, speaks of the Father in the second person, receives Heavenly messengers from his Father and is seen (as He promised) on the right hand of the Father by Steven (as previously cited on this blog).

(As a young boy, of maybe 14, full of questions, growing up in a mainline Christian denomination, I came to the same view as Arius -- though I had never heard of him. I was well read in the New Testament. I took it seriously. But to me, believing that The Father and the Son are one being made the Atonement of Christ seem an incomprehensible contrivance. When I expressed doubt or asked questions, I was told it was all a beautiful mystery. I failed to see any beauty in it.)

After 300 AD, the Emperor Constantine was looking for something that might unify his empire and make administration of his his vast and diverse holdings more workable. He determined that those fast growing Christians might be he glue he sought.

But Christianity seemed to be divided about a very fundamental thing -- the very nature of God. That simply would not do. He had to get those Christians united if he was going to be able to use them to keep order in his world.

So he called the Council of Nicaea. The bishops came. They were still divided. Only after Constantine, himself not yet a Christian, came into the Council and personally intervened was unity achieved.

Constantine sided with the bishop of Rome. The result of the Council is still called the Nicene Creed -- the doctrinal source for all Christians who believe in the Trinity. Arius's writings were ordered burned, he supporters were banished. Constantine got his glue. Only on his deathbed did he actually become a Christian.

Belief in the Trinity is truly a defining doctrine for most Catholics and Protestants. But in rejecting it, Latter Day Saints are in good and ancient company.

It is such an important difference of opinion, such a pivotal doctrinal question, that it did not at all seem strange to me, when at age 19, I first heard about Joseph Smith's First Vision.

It was no wonder to me, that settling such a paramount issue, might involve a personal appearance to a 14-year-old boy by the both the Father and the Son, the one standing on the right hand of the other.

Latter Day Saints are Christians all right. they claim to adhere to the same doctrines as the Saints of old.

And, pardon me for saying it, most other denominations are followers of Constantine.

you sound like my (many years ago) seminary teacher

Statement in the article reads:
“Plural marriage is still practiced by the more “fundamentalist” segment of the Mormon church..."

The above statement was in the opening article about the LDS Church. May I point out to the author that there is no "fundamentalist segment" of the "Mormon Church". There are those who have chosen a polygamus lifetsyle and have been excommunucated from the "Mormon" Church because of it.

The fact that these groups choose to call themselves "Mormons" does not make them affiliated with the LDS Church in any manner.

Peter and others:

Did you read your Bible? Straight from the Bible we have vivid accounts fo the conflict in heaven between Christ and Satan. IN HEAVEN, thank you. That's where Satan was. Even if you don't think we're all one big spiritual family, you have to admit he was THERE. Let's take a look:

Revelations 12:

7 And there was war IN HEAVEN: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon(that's Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more IN HEAVEN(that means they - Satan and his followers had been living there).
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud avoice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that well in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

How about another:

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou FALLEN FROM HEAVEN, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; (this is the important part)I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Oviously he started out as someone important, eh? Not as some slimy serpent guy with a tail.

How about the separateness of God and Christ. The "Creed" you believe in that says they are one "mystical embodiment of God" is found nowhere in the scriptures. That was written about 300 years after Christ when no one could agree on how to define "God". The scriptuires are replete with accounts of Christ praying to his Father, hearing the voice of his Father (at his Baptism), Stephen seeng God and Christ standing side by side in his vision, Christ calling out to his Father to take away the bitter cup, Christ asking his Father to forgive his crucifiers - the list goes on. So there is plenty of evidence for our belief in God and Christ as separate beings. My favorite scripture that explains why Christ referred to He and the Father as "one" is found in John:

John 17

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, (here's the important part)that THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE.
...

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; (the important part) THAT THEY MAY BE ONE; EVEN AS WE ARE ONE

So He wants us to be one, just as He and the Father are one. This is talking about unity, not physical one-ness. Adam and Eve were told to become "one". There is scriptural precedent here.

So, don't write off our beliefs so quickly. There are valid reasons for them, and I dare say some of yours are on shaky ground, unless you really believe a group of medieval Bishops from 325AD who fought like cats and dogs with each other were "inspired".

Neal

what is that ECLATi crap?? I can't even understand that guy...all I wanted to say was really folks?? Really?? We are going to keep going around in circles on a subject that will not see any definant(sp) answers? The reason all of ya'll will keep shouting at eachother is because your minds are made up...scream all you want I hear only blahblah blahblah...If we as Christians spent more time following Christ the Messiah instead of screaming my God is better than your god....ya know i'll stop because it's not even going to help...

I do however want to ask Mr. Jacob Whatever what is all the nonesense about ECLATi really about how old are you..??

Just One Woman:

Again, by that same logic, and your fact, then Christ and all the biblical prophets and were sexist for not allowing women to ever be priests or elders or apostles, etc.

Do you label Christ as a hypocrite or as being sexist? Afterall, He too so often taught about freedom, freedom from pain, freedom from sin, freedom from misery, freedom from suffering.

Do you label Moses and other Old Testament Israelites and Jews as sexist too for never allowing women to become priests under the laws they were commanded to obey?

Doesn't that make foundations Judeo-Christianity as a whole sexist?

Then again, it's apparent you don't even have a conviction of any Judeo-Christian set of beliefs if you choose to worship a god that is female in nature so I don't expect you to try and defend traditional Jewish or Christian practices and beliefs with respect to this matter.

If being part of the LDS church or subscribing to the teachings and patterns as recorded in the Bible somehow makes you feel less powerful as a human being, or makes you feel in bondage in whatever way, then obviously you are free to choose you are free to go in whatever other direction makes you feel more fufilled and empowered and so does any LDS or other Christian woman who feels the same way as you.

If my wife ever walked away from the church with the same feelings and conviction as you, I of course would be disappointed, but I wouldn't split up with her over it. I would still support her and love her as the wife and mother that she is, and would still cherish her and if that puts her on a pedestal that she's not comfortable with, then she has her right to walk away from our relationship and as much as it would hurt, I would not hold her baack. My own mother divorced my father who loved her with all his heart because she felt "trapped" being married and she used to criticize church leaders and has fallen away from the church. She thought was going to be more free and empowered to somehow find more happiness in life. Perhaps she is more free in many ways, and perhaps she did have a newer kind of excitement for life for a period of time after she got the divorce, but now, several years after her falling away from the church and her husband, very and lonely and as much as I try to still console her and love her as my mother, which does bring some degree of happiness to her, she has made it clear to me that she is defintely not any happier and in fact feels a lot more depressed, miserable, and a lot less powerful in her current position in life.

Will:

As to what god thinks of women?

She adores them.

Will:

The Mormon church structure is sexist.

This is a matter of fact. As you aptly point out, there is an option for men not available to women: the Priesthood (oft defined, btw, as The Power To Act In The Name Of God).

There is no quibbling about the accuracy of this fact. You, and others like you who choose to stay in the church, may find justifications for the fact. But it is a fact, nonetheless, that can be clearly seen during even a one hour visit to an LDS church meeting.

Separate is not equal. Never has been.

Regarding your point that the LDS church culturally reveres or honors women - It has been said that the top of a pedestal is as small as a jail cell. It is a very long place to fall from, I might add. Very difficult to stretch out up there.

It may be that some stay in the church feeling fine (substitute faithful, long suffering, righteous, deserving, whatever works for you)about the sexist structure. It may also be that some leave the church. And feel free.

JD1 said,

"Mormon women are educated to get all the education they can."

and the men? from the above it apears we are not very educated to get education.

It should read:

"Mormon women are encouraged to get all the education they can."

Sorry, I think I'll go do some reading :(

Just one other thing to add to the above. According LDS theology, when all is said and done, Priesthood alone would be powerless in God's plan and could not lead to anyone's salvation without Womanhood, and the power of Womanhood alone could not lead to the full salvation of anyone without the Priesthood. And so in that way, as I see it, both men AND women play equal and vital parts in bringing to pass God's great plan of salvation, with Jesus Christ being at the center of that plan.

Mayan Elephant:

I don't have any arguments for the comments on your last post about Joseph's wives, and the elephants in the Book of Mormon.

Joseph being sealed to women who were already married is still a mystery to me, I'll admit, but I do not argue it, and I'm confident that in a coming day, that will all make sense to me and won't be so unusual to think about. I do admit that to think of that and dwell on it is a bit unsettling and disturbing, but the records and information we have behind all that is so limited that it's not enough to shake my faith insomuch that I don't think there was any good purpose behind it or that he wasn't a prophet. In the mean time, despite all his other imperfections and mistakes he may have made as a man, there are so many other records and evidence for other things he did that has strongly convinced me that he still was a prophet, and was full of charity and the love of Christ and was quick to forgive. I don't know if you were implying it or not, but just practicing polygamy and taking on a 14 year old wife does not mean someone is an immoral or lustful pedophile seeking to indulge in their sexuality. In fact, I'm not aware of any evidence to suggest that he had any kind of sexual relations with the 14 year old or with the women who already had husbands. Of course, for those who want to better understand what the motives probably were behind these sealings Joseph Smith had with multiple women, including the married women, you can check out the bottom of this page:
http://en.fairmormon.org/index.php/Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Polygamy
to see this concern addressed. For even more insight to this concern, you can also check out this link: http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf

Now, as for your opinion of the church and it's governing structure being sexist. Now that's more puzzling when people express that opinion. To me, anyone who makes the claim would also have to have the same opinion about Jesus Christ himself and be opposed to the teaching and patterns as recorded in the bible. In fact, there's even one place in the New Testament that seems to imply women shouldn't even be able to speak in church. By your statements, one would have to conclude that Christ was also sexist for not calling any women to be an apostle. That the Old testament prophets were sexist for not ever allowing women to be ordained as priests and to proceed past certain points of the tabernacle and temple.

But then, when you consider that the first person Christ ever appeared to after his miraculous resurrection was not any of his apostles, not even Peter, but a woman who we now as Mary Magdalene. And then to also consider that LDS theology actually reveres and respects Eve and her vital role in propelling the human race forward.

When you read the accounts of Joseph Smith's mother regarding her son, everything she recorded about him contrary to the suggestion that he was sexist. Also consider how Utah, which was almost all LDS at the time, was one of the first states of America to ever grant women the right to vote. And then you have to consider that LDS theology holds that a man and a woman are to be equal partners in marriage and raising families, and that a neither a man nor woman can be exalted to the highest degree without the other.

In other words, when all is said an done, a man's priesthood in the church won't be worth much in the end if he doesn't have an equal partner in a woman standing at his side. In my personal opinion, since it is LDS theology that the body and the spirit are both equal and vital components to our souls in God's plan, that women are blessed with the natural ability to give mortal life and to nurture it in its infancy and provide for the physical bodies of God's children so that they can one day have those bodies resurrected through Christ. And it is men, who are worthy and qualified which are blessed and ordained with the power of God's priesthood to be able to provide the ordinances of the gospel such as baptism to all, both men and women, which are equally important for providing our spirits with what they need to progress to the glory of God in as much as women provide for the physical.

I hope that all made sense, and I'm sure you are already aware of most of that, but I am curious to know your thoughts and opinions what I have put forward in rebuttal of your opinion that God, Christ, and/or this church is sexist against women.

Punky's Dillema,

It seems you speak of a Mormonism that has since passed on. Mormon women are currently in the work force in equal numbers and non-Mormon women. Mormon women are educated to get all the education they can. Most young Mormon women do have good educations. And from what I could tell at BYU, the pill is the drug of choice for recently married Mormon women.

What horrific thing did that boy of 14 do that would have him put away? Went to a grove of trees to pray?

Too bad more 14-year-old boys today aren't doing that.

Tom sez: Geez, you people should be ashamed of yourself. Don't you have any tolerance of other people. This country was formed on tolerance.

Tell this to the Church that spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to support anti-gay political campaigns and that has participated in questionable, hurtful methods to "cure" gays. Real tolerant, eh, Tom? The LDS "Church" is a political organization similar to the right wing Christian extremists Fallwell, Dobson, Robertson, Haggard, et al. They all should lose their tax exempt status.

When I was finishing my Ph.D. (as a devout, endowed LDS woman), I was recruited by BYU. The person on the phone indicated they were calling all Ph.D. graduates in a tri-state area to see if any were interested in being faculty at one of the BYU campuses. After a brief exchange I asked her if there were any other women on her list. She shuffled around several papers, and there was a long pause. "No, m'am. You're the only one."

I was in a ward near a major university. There were few female students, many male students. There were no other female graduate students in my entire stake (mostly made up of several wards in an university-centered city). I regularly received counsel about birth control, having a family, and placed in calling specifically because I was told that I needed to drop out of school and have children (that I wasn't able at that time to have children didn't seem to matter).

I regularly associated with the women in my stake. Many had little education, and had intentionally curtailed their education to have children early. They often expressed regret and insecurity about this, though only in hush-hush private moment. Many women expressed turmoil about birth control, and guilt about appropriate desires to limit children. Women do did limit children or work outside the home were subject to social marginalization.

My own parents were ambivalent about my education (which I paid for entirely on my own) because they felt that I should just get married, have babies, and give up my full-ride scholarship.

None of the women I knew, growing up on or in college, completed much education besides me. Most women married young and had many children young, though it was clear that this was not a decision they arrived at without a great deal of conflict. I received many agonized letters and emails from devout LDS friends who were pregnant with too many children too early but were afraid to tell others how they felt.

Educated, career-invested LDS women are the exception. Not the norm.

As for the way the church calculates its membership numbers...well, check it out. If I'm wrong then explain how the numbers really *are* calculated. I'm okay being wrong, but so far there's nobody posting that appears to have any evidence to the contrary.

To the last anonymous post:

I'm not "Thankful", but I will try to help out. Mormons don't believe or teach that people who are not Mormons will be doomed to some everlasting hell with the devil and his demons, etc...like many other traditional Christians may believe about non-Christians.

In short, Mormons believe that all people who have ever had a physical body here on Earth will be physically resurrected at some point in a time period known as the "Great Millennium" which will start upon the second coming of Christ.

Everybody will then be eternally endowed with some degree of glory based on their acts and desires in mortal life and the Judgment of God. These degrees of glory were referenced by Paul to the Corinthians and he explained that there would be Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial degrees that would vary in glory and brightness as much as the light from the sun, moon, and stars vary.

Even those who are endowed with the lesser degrees with physically dwell in paradise like settings, but they will not be in a state where they can dwell in the presence of God and will not be able to continue to eternally progress in their potential as children of God like those of the Celestial nature. It is worth noting that the devil will not be permitted to have a presence or influence in any of these spheres as mentioned.

Instead, the devil will be banished to what is termed "Outer Darkness" which is a state where there is absolutely no light of any kind. It is also worth noting that those who had sure witnesses in this life that Jesus is the Christ, and then turned against that and would willingly crucify Christ again if they had the opportunity to do so, will not receive any of the above mentioned glory. There will be a few souls however, that will not receive any such glory as mentioned above and will be physically placed in this eternal state of complete darkness and will dwell eternally in the presence and misery of the devil.

Anon asked: "I guess my question to you all would be, why does this subject generate such tension and dismay in your life? And why do you feel the need to put any person or religion down?"

I look forward to writing a different response to this next week. I may or may not post it here.

The stream of consciousness response is:

You may be wrong to conclude that leaving mormonism is the source of tension and dismay. It is very possible that for many, activity in the church created the tension and dismay, and that looking at it with new eyes or views, prompts a new curiosity that is free of tension.

To say that a religion is put down is very subjective. It does happen, and I may have done so, but every comment is not a put-down. Mormons, including their fearless leader Mikey Otterson, have a huge huge huge persecution complex. (That is not a put-down. It just is what it is.)

Accepting facts, for Mormons, is very complicated. This is not a put down. Mormonism, more so than any other religion believes they are the 'One True Church.' A common refrain among mormons is, 'The Church is Perfect but the People are not, and, I Know the Church is True.'

So, when presented with a fact, that contradicts this trueness, it is perceived to be a put-down. For example: Joseph Smith had 34 wives, 10 were also married to other men, at least one was 14 years old. Additionally, he was married to 9 women after his death.

Many, and I challenge it could be most, active Mormons would say this was insulting, a put down, not true, whatever. It is a fact. There is no emotion or accusation in that fact.

Another example, Mormons believe that Elephants were domesticated and used to build massive civilizations in the Americas. That is not insulting nor is it a lie. It is in the Book of Mormon for Gods sake. And yet, many mormons consider it a put-down to say that on a public forum.

Another. The Mormon Church is sexist. This is a fact. Men do one thing, women do another. Men can be apostles, women can't. There is no judgment in that statement, what.so.ever. NONE. And yet, it causes absolute fits among Mormons. I cannot explain that.

Finally. I think it will help you to understand the connection post disconnection for Mormons if you dissect the final example. As a participating Mormon, one is left to defend the fact that mormons are sexist. It is not possible, and yet, a person is left with the paradox of explaining it for themselves and others because the leaders do not do so sufficiently.

Once a person leaves mormonism, they are free to express feelings that were hidden. The shame of having lived within sexism (just an example) is crippling. The freedom of leaving it, empowering. And for many, they just cant help but to live in that moment. Also, they are often in a grave state of mourning, despite this freedom. They loved Mormon people for the same reasons you do, and yet, they were compelled to leave because there is no room for the variations of belief. Women adore the connections had within the Relief Society, but not enough to stay and put their children on the same path.

It is sad to leave. It is horrible to leave. The anger comes in feeling that one was forced to leave. That again, is not a put down. It is a real feeling that comes to good people, when they can no longer submit to a rigid dogma, despite their real and innate affection for the religion. These emotions keep people curious of the topic. And one other layer, having survived the departure, some feel a loyalty to continue to express their beliefs, just as they were primed to do in Mormonism, the Church of their youth and ancestors.

Joseph Smith was nothing more than a money grubbing, gold digging pedophile in his time. If a 14 year old boy did today what he did then he would be put away where all loonatics belong. He was not a martyr, he was a coward running from citizens who realized whatt he was teaching was nothing more than a way to excuse molseting and marrying extemely young girls he had an eye for. Shame on him and shame on the people who say he was a great man and prophet of God. I hardly think God would actually reveal to anyone that they should do any of the things he did. It has been proven over and over again that he ahnd his family were practicing magic and spell casting, doesn't get any more satanic than that now does it?

Anonymous,

Well first I’ll say it ain’t over till it’s over and even when it’s over it’s a beautiful ending
-- the question is

TO WHAT DEGREE AND WHAT COMES IN BETWEEN ???

First, there’s still time to change you mind in this life and in the next.

LDS often imagine that those having passed on -- arriving in the hereafter, would in many cases be more open to considering new ideas about their purpose beyond our life on this earth.

This is one main reason why LDS build temples -- therein we have begun the exhaustive work to perform baptisms by proxy for those who have died not having the gospel -- we believe that in what we refer to as the spirit world, such will have had an opportunity to be taught about God’s plan either once again or for the very first time.

This gospel teaching in the spirit world as well as temple work is to continue through the millennium that follows Christ’s second coming until all have had this opportunity to embrace or reject it.

Beyond that, LDS also have an expounded doctrine of the classic heaven and hell.

LDS believe that heavenly salvation is offered on a continuum referred by LDS as the 3 degrees of glory which degrees are attained in correspondence to one’s choices for good or evil before the final judgment.

So in which of these kingdoms or degrees of glory you end up in is based on how closely you ultimately seek and adhere to God’s commandments or not.

LDS focus primarily on the goal and belief that only in the highest degree of glory or heaven, those who make and keep all temple covenants will be able to continue on fully in a progression to become like God which most profoundly includes the continuation of family relationships as they are on this earth ie. In the highest or celestial kingdom exclusively, Your spouse remains your spouse and your children remain your children throughout eternity.

For such who do not chose this path, if their are sins they have not yet repented of, there is suffering and repenting in hell before obtaining one of the remaining two kingdoms of glory (we don’t know how long).

Hell (the suffering of individuals who ultimately choose not to repent) will be excruciatingly painful yes, but also will ultimately have an end and to such a kingdom of glory will eventually be given

As an LDS, I believe hell is more about being purged and purified of unrepented of sins to enable one to attain a place in one of God’s kingdoms rather than an ongoing punishment that lasts forever. Still, it is in another sense an eternal damnation in that one remains single in eternity and can have neither their own or additional children.

Seeing all three of these degrees of glory in vision, Joseph reported something to the effect of -- man would crawl on his hands and knees just to get to the least of them.

Ultimately, it is our belief that it will be each persons individual choices to embrace all the good that is offered to us through Christ or to embrace varied degrees of that good, that will determine one’s end in how much they become like God and to what degree they receive all or some of his blessings

Well now I better be off for a while and repent for neglecting my patient little one…

Later all and thanks for asking!

I do not think any one sect has exclusive rights to such all-encompassing words as "Christian". There are many Islamic sects that have different teachings but it would be appropriate to categorize them under the larger umbrella of Islam. The same can go for any blanket religious category, Buddhist, Atheist, Hindu. Mormons have obviously declared that they believe in Jesus and his teachings. I cannot see an valid reason why it is not appropriate to call them such. Simply because their beliefs are different than Catholicism or Protestantism is a very poor argument for not labeling them 'Christian'.

Every time I hear someone criticize the Church of Jesus Christ of Laterday Saints - it is inevitably rooted in misconception. The beliefs of the church encompass all of life in totality - not just part of it.

When someone says something like:

"Gordon Hinckley teaches us that we are good if we love our own children. Christ taught that even the heathen love their own. He set the bar higher and demanded that we love our enemies and respect their rights."

They fail to mention that we believe the very same thing - I can not even count the number of times that I have heard "Love your enemies" while in a church meeting...and from Gordon B. Hinckley. Wouldn't you say that we need to do both?? How much worse is the person who treats complete strangers well - but abuses his own flesh and blood?

But this seems to be a common way to slam the church - take a small piece out of context and then slam the church for something we already believe in as if we didn't believe it at all.

I think that most people would find that we have many things in common. Sure there are a few major differences, but our core belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ are the same.

Interesting to see these Mormon beliefs spelled out, showing beyond the shadow of a doubt that Mormonism and Christianity are two different religions.

Mormons can believe what they wish. But when they call themselves Christians, it's just not true, because they believe things that Christians do not believe - like God was once like us and someday we can be like Him. Such a belief is the exact opposite of what Christians believe.

Nor do Christians believe that Satan and Jesus were spiritual brothers, or that God and Jesus are separate entities.

The LDS church may have Jesus in its name, but it teaches things about Jesus that NO Christian church teaches - things that Christians do not believe at all. That is at least one of the things that people object to when discussing Mormonism. It is not a denomination of Christianity, and please don't describe it as such. It's a completely separate belief system.

I think it is sad that people try to bring down other's faith and religion we as members of the church reserve the right to believe and worship how we feel is correct we also reserve the same right for anyone else. We invite people to learn about our beliefs if you dont like them that is your choice but let us worship our Father in heaven how we please and STOP spreading false information about us to get a good story published why not talk about the countless good things our church does for the world. I just got back from a two year mission and would go back in a heartbeat because there is not a shadow of a doubt in my heart that what we teach is true. And noone can convince me otherwise!

Not to be worry about numbers. A sentence like "fastest growing church in the world" is not true, of course, but the statement wasen´t made by the church, but by somebody loving numbers. The statement, although close to the true (pentecostals, witnesses, or even Islam grow faster) shadow the real thing. And the real thing is power. Power in any sense you can imagine -economic, of course, social, of course, and spiritual, of course of course. What matters is that, despite retention, births and deaths numbers the lds church is having more and more power,is more and more known and their fruits are good. How this can be if retention is poor and church numbers hoaxes?Simply. The other churches of what is call "mainstream christianity" are worse. Their attendance to meetings is frankly poor and their impact in culture is going down. In any aspect of power, mainstream christianity is losing the battle. Acording to adhernents. org there are eigth states wuere the lds church impact is bigger than any other religious group. These states are mid west. How they conclude this, because of baptisms? No. Except in Utah, in the other 7 states lds are not the bigger church. But, acording to it members, the lds church have the large number of meetinghouses and facilitys. The real thing is that those faster growing churches in the US dosen´t belong to mainstream christianity (witness, pentecostal evangelism or even lds) and there is a field almost ready to be harvest(and by working on it the field give power and receive power). These groups are growing, and mainstream christianity is falling. So is good that the lds matter arose due to the presidencial campaing, so every one can honesty look on themselves, acknoledge the merits of others and prepare.
" There is three things, truth, lies, and statistics"

Thank you all

Thankful, what do the Mormons claim happens to those that reject the message upon hearing it?

I'm familiar with the dreadful end that most religions have for me, but I'm drawing a blank on what the Mormons have in store for me.

I've read the Book of Mormon several times and I utterly reject its message. What end will befall me?

Hi again Mary,

You kindly asked for some explanation on

“1. Jesus and Satan are brothers.

2. Mormons believe that they (and everyone else) are a spirit brother or sister of Satan too!”

First I should say outright that Satan has long been disowned and avowed from the family and ever will be : )

LDS usually try to put this general question into context by sharing what we call the Plan of Salvation or sometimes called the Great Plan of Happiness. I’ll focus most of my response on explaining the beginning of that plan.

For us, knowing more about this plan puts many aspects of this life into greater perspective and clarifies our purpose in being here and our concepts of the hereafter.

The Plan of Salvation basically entails that all of mankind began as spirits who lived with God prior to coming to this earth. That we are each God’s spirit son’s and daughters. That as a loving Father, God most naturally wanted to give each of us all that he has and is because we are not simply his creatures but his precious children.

In a very general sense, LDS believe that God’s happiness -- his majesty and glory, is not necessarily what he has (although he certainly has all) but the what or who God is -- his perfect character and knowledge as well as the unmatched joy experienced in being a Father to us his children.

Though he might easily bestow great riches or a kingdom upon us, his perfect attributes of wisdom, kindness, love, patience, forbearance, etc. we believe cannot simply be bestowed but must be learned and developed out of our own free will. It is these attributes which would then also truly qualify one to be a parent and a spouse.

So in this pre-earth or sometimes referred to as pre-mortal life, God presented an opportunity to all of us to come to an earth to experience the opposites of good and evil as necessities to our learning and growth to become more like him.

The idea is that we cannot know the sweet without tasting some of the bitter and vice versa -- it is in these contrasting presences our choices and the choices of others can help us understand the qualitative differences between what it really is to choose good or evil. We get to see the outcomes, we get to experience the results -- it is somewhat of a laboratory for very awkward apprentice scientists experimenting with their very lives and the lives of others. The most profound opportunity for growth to be found in marriage and parenthood as stewards of his children.

Knowing that we are inexperienced and that each of us would naturally make mistakes, we believe that God our Father wisely also planned to send a savior, his perfect son and our elder brother Jesus Christ, to show us how to live, to atone for our sins so that we could choose to repent of the unwise choices we might make, so we would have a source of comfort to turn to in our sorrows while here and so we could draw upon Christ’s power to do good to our fellow men, etc. Ultimately so that there was a way, the way, we could return to God and live in his presence.

Now getting on to Satan -- we believe that when God presented that plan to the human family, another, being Lucifer ( originally a spirit son of God as well) contended to be our savior instead of Christ -- that Lucifer tried to assert that he could save everyone BUT with the price of compromising our own free will as individuals and his goal was not to glorify the Father and to elevate the rest us but to bring glory to himself. Essentially, he was power hungry at the potential expense of everyone else‘s growth.

Lucifer’s plan could never have worked and was a lie but we believe that a third part of the hosts heaven actually bought into it and followed after him. In the end, God the Father cast him and this third out of heaven. Lucifer became the devil or Satan and he and his followers no longer progress in receiving a body in coming to earth but all seek to thwart God’s plan for us continually. He IS EVIL and he and his followers now forever remain in darkness.

In contrast, LDS believe that everyone who ever has or will be been born on the face of this earth accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior before they came and rejoiced in the opportunity to come to earth to learn, grow and to prove themselves faithful to God.

We believe it is again the great and defining choice in mortality to accept Christ as ones Savior and to make and keep sacred covenants to follow him order to qualify for the fullness of God’s blessings. We also believe that all mankind will at some point, in either this life or the next, have the opportunity to hear this gospel message, accept it and have these blessings as well.

OK that was long -- sorry, probably too long but I hope that offers more insight?

Mary and Ted. If you are sincere in your questions then all of us would encourage you to see lds.org or talk with the missionaries that are in your area. It is always good to get the official doctrine from the official source. Many of these are strong questions and with much time and with a good sincere interest about the church, these can all be addressed.

1. We believe that God the Father, our Heavenly Father, is indeed the father of all our spirits. Created by him. He loves each of us dearly as his children. We believe he had a plan for us. To come to earth, obtain a body and IF WE CHOSE, to obey his law and return to him. We believe that Satan, one of the sons, had a plan where he, Satan, could come to earth and FORCE all to choose the right and return to our Father. We believe that then Jesus Christ offered to follow our Heavenly Father’s plan and come to earth as our Savior. For we would make mistakes, and it would be Christ, our Savior and Redeemer that would atone for those sins, making us clean so we could return to our Heavenly Father. He is whom we worship. Our Savior, our Redeemer, our Mediator... and our Heavenly Father who loves us and gave his son as ransom.

2. So yes, we believe we are all spirit brothers and sisters. We address each other in our church as Brother Jones and Sister Smith. Reason for us all to speak kindly one to another.

3. We believe that Israel was scattered. Fragments were living all over the world. One group was living in the Americas. (Speculated central). In John 10:15, Christ stated, “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” We believe that after Christ died on the cross and was resurrected, he then went to these people and taught them his gospel. That spectacular event and his teachings are found in the Book of Mormon. We believe he went other places too and taught others. Perhaps some day, their record, like the Book of Mormon, might also be found and it would be yet another witness of Christ.

4. We believe in God the Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ. We do not believe there are hundreds of gods in heaven but everyone must worship the mormon god.

5. A common statement said is, “As man is now, God once was, as God is now, man may become.”

6. We believe there are certain ordinances that must be performed to enter heaven. Christ was perfect, yet he was baptized. He said in John 3:5, “Except a man be born of water (baptism) and of the spirit (testimony), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Again, if you are sincere in your desire to learn more, missionaries can help with the answers!

I just want to make a comment to all of those who have disagreements with the Mormon church and their teachings. You absolutely have the right to voice your opinions and we all have the right to believe in our own belief systems.

I guess my question to you all would be, why does this subject generate such tension and dismay in your life? And why do you feel the need to put any person or religion down?

I would hope that you all take a little time and reflect on what you are saying. If you really truly believe in what you are saying, wonderful. If I believe in what I am saying and doing, that's great too.

If you wish to live in an environment of hate, condemnation and rheteric, there are other countries in this world that might just be to your own liking.

Our world (and especially our country) cannot afford such horrible feelings and remarks towards one another in light of what's going on in the world today.

Take the time to know as many people as you can be kind to ALL. Be good to each other and be as tolerant as possible. That's being a good Christian.

NOTE: TO ALL PEOPLE, YOU MAY WISH TO REMEMBER THIS SAYING BEFORE YOU SPEW MORE HATE IN THE WORLD: "Opinions are like a-holes, we have them and they all stink".

As I have read all of your comments on many & varied subjects and issues about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. My conclusion is that there is an extremely large amount of mis-information circulating through the threads of these comments. Much anti mormon rhetoric, inaccurate information, & false assumptions.

As the Savior in St John 18:37 of the King James version of the bible states, he came into the world to bear witness of the truth. Everyone that is of the truth heareth my word. Pilate who was trying him said "What is truth" went out and could find no fault with Jesus. The rest is history. We should seek for the truth in all our seeking. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints is the truth, as revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith in the spring of 1820. I challenge each of you to pursue the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ through Scripture, prayer, and the Holy spirit. It is much more rewarding than finding fault and half truths and lies as have been expressed in the above blogs. Bless you in your pursuit....

Thanks Cass,

Yours is a typical response. Not original and not unique. Your response in this case, to information that is factual and does not in any way judge the convictions to any myth or foundational belief of Mormonism, is a great display for people.

One knows that responses, rejections and judgments like your await anyone that fails to toe the party line. It is one of the most powerful tools within Mormonism.

It is interesting also that the last generation had 'Jack Mormons.' These were the folks in your neighborhood that didnt do it all exactly right, according to mormon leaders. And yet, they were right there amonst us, great neighbors and invited to the Ward Chuckwagon Breakfast on the 24th of July.

When Hinckley issued his all true or all a fraud challenge, and with the challenges such as those by Oaks, the Jack Mormons no longer had a real place. Some of them still show up, silently living and participating as New Order Mormons. Why, because to out themselves, or disbelieve in any way, the Casses and his/her ilk are fanged and ready to label them, and everything they say, as ANTI MORMON. When, in reality, those anti mormons are often very informed, spiritual and well meaning people.

Who are you to judge how or when someone lets go? For many, this church is as much theirs as yours. They may have volunteered more than you, had more ancestors in this than you, or just plain loved it more than you. Or, they may have done less. They may have cried and anguished over their decision, or not. Who are you to judge?

The bottom line is this, if you know about the 110 year fiasco, you are not welcome at the table. If you disagree with Oaks, you are not welcome. If you are not welcome in church, you best prepare yourself well, because there is a very good chance you wont feel welcome in Mormon homes that were once welcoming.

Mormons take care of each other better than any community I know. Part of that care, is identifying the enemy and protecting others from any association. The internet is busting their defenses down, and its uncomfortable - for everyone.

Hi Mary,

Thanks for so much for your genuine interest to understand LDS beliefs. It would probably take me all day to type out thorough answers to all of your questions so I hope my fellow LDS who are around and feel so inclined will help me out as well.

I have an 11 month old with a cold so I'm a bit stretched.

I'll start by answering numbers 1 & 2 of your questions and invite my fellow LDSers to pick up on your other thoughtful questions as they feel comfortable.

See you soon and thanks!

I agree with Mary. Can any Mormon here take a moment and explain these non-Christian Mormon beliefs? Are these correct? I don't think they are. They seem to whacky to be believable.

1. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers.

2. Mormons believe that they (and everyone else) are a spirit brother or sister of Satan too!

3. Jesus appeared in the Americas after his resurrection on the Cross. Was it North or South America?

4. There isn't only one God in Heaven, instead there are hundreds or thousands of Gods --but we (on Earth) are supposed to worship only one of the Mormon gods (not all).

5. The God we worship was once a man like us.

6. It takes more than conversation, faith or even baptism to be exalted in Heaven. Mormons believe exaltation requires a complex myriad of duties, rituals and ordinances --among these are a) wearing sacred underwear with special symbols,
b) learning special handshakes for Heaven, c) wearing special Temple clothing with aprons, hats or veils and d) learning the "True Order of Prayer" that only Mormons know.

I echo Will's comment on the sustaining of church leadership and the opportunity we have as members to openly support and encourage (or not) them in their work. This opportunity is given to each member when a leader is placed into office and then again AT LEAST annually. I am sure that Elder Oak's comment was in regards to murmuring, griping, and public fault finding that we as humans seem to participate in. If we have openingly sustained him/her when put into office, it is then our responsibility to do what we can to help them in their duties. If there is a serious concern, then private action can be taken.

Wouldn't it be nice if any public figure's problems could could be addressed privately. Seems more Christlike.

I'm also concerned about Punky's comment above about Mormon "Women who pursue education are often treated with fear and suspicion, and often receive both subtle and explicit social sanctions from mormon leadership and mormon membership. There is a great deal of inner conflict that mormon women experience around the issues of birth control, sexuality, and education."

I sorrow for whatever experience you may have had to lead you to this conclusion, but I'll have you know that I live right in the heart of Utah County in Utah where it is dominated by the Mormon culture and my wife used birth control for the first few months we were married, and she laid off it because we wanted a child and we've since had a baby girl recently and now she chooses to back on the pill and will lay off it again when we both feel ready and right to take on another child.

I'll also have you know that she continued to attend school even after we got married until she got her degree, and she also runs her own business often requires her to work outside of our home and we have never been scorned, shunned, or advised that we were doing anything contrary to our covenants within the church. In fact we enjoy good standing, and great fellowship among our neighbors and fellow members of our church.

You can also find a number of other great educated LDS women out there who have gone on to have vibrant careers and are consistently engaged in great causes both in and outside of the church and enjoying full fellowship in the church. Sharlene Wells-Hawkes, Gladys Knight, and Jane Clayson-Johnson (the former Jane Clayson) are just a few examples.

And anyone who gives up a career or makes a change in their career to be more at home to raise and support their children usually desires to make that choice therefor will do so. Just check out Jane Clayson's new book, "I am a Mother", to get her perspective and her feelings about her role as a new mother, her career, education, and so forth.

Dear "Thankful",
Thank you for thoughfully explaining the ambiguous nature of the wife (or wives) of Heavenly Father --a.k.a. the "Heavenly Mother". I sincerely appreciate your kind explanation for us.

If you have a moment, can you also explain these non-Christian Mormon beliefs? Are these correct?

1. Jesus and Satan are brothers.

2. Mormons believe that they (and everyone else) are a spirit brother or sister of Satan too!

3. Jesus appeared in the Americas after his resurrection on the Cross. Was it North or South America?

4. There isn't only one God in Heaven, instead there are hundreds or thousands of Gods --but we (on Earth) are supposed to worship only one of the Mormon gods (not all).

5. The God we worship was once a man like us.

6. It takes more than conversation, faith or even baptism to be exalted in Heaven. Mormons believe exaltation requires a complex myriad of duties, rituals and ordinances --among these are a) wearing sacred underwear with special symbols,
b) learning special handshakes for Heaven, c) wearing special Temple clothing with aprons, hats or veils and d) learning the "True Order of Prayer" that only Mormons know.

As a member of the human race, I believe that we should be tolerant of others' beliefs. If we disagree, so be it. Everyone will not ever be in total agreement. It's time we all accepted that and moved on.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I have been taught many valuable and profound lessons about life, and because of that, I am proud of the person I have become. That, however, is not what I want to comment on. What I do want to comment on is the fact that it is wrong to say things about someone, or in this case, some religion, that are not true. I was baptized at 19. I got married in the temple at 21. I am almost 25. On and off throughout this time, I have been on birth control. Never have I been counseled by my leaders not to be on birth control. Yes, the church is very family-oriented, but we are also taught to pray about our decisions and the counsel that we receive from the leaders, that the realtionship between a husbannd and a wife is personal and sacred, and finally, to live within our means. This means, yes, have children, but it is up to the parents (only) to decide when, and how many. Also, I am finally about to graduate college with a BS. After this, I plan on going to law school. I am doing this for many reasons, but mainly so that I can be secure in the knowledge that I can take care of my family and myself is something should happen to my husband. Everyone from my husband to my family to my church leaders to even strangers have been supportive of me. I don't plan on having children while I am in school because it is important to me that I raise my children, not some daycare providers and/or babysitters who will not care for them the way I would. I know this regardless of whether the church encourages me to stay home or not.
The whole thing of it is that I think people sometimes just want to have an opinion on something just for the sake of having an opinion. (Ex: It's wrong to encourage mothers to stay home with their children). Really, though, is that so wrong? I know that the world in not perfect, and in order to survive, parents do have to work. But, if people are going to make the decision to have children, shouldn't they also make the effort to raise those children if they are able to do so?

Mayan Elephant

I have read your comments and I thought of something you may know being such an the "expert" on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints,
"Behold ere he is aware' he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the Saints, and to fight against God" D&C 121:38

People who want to cut ties do just that, but you seem all wrapped up in Mormonism.It never ceases to amaze me how former members tend to be so much into the church when they are supposedly not in the church. Having a problem letting go?

Like all anti-mormons you never fail to strenghten my testimony of how true The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is. Didn't you learn "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" John15:19. Or was that taught the Sunday you stopped coming to church.

Thank You and keep on kicking

My only comment is in response to Mayan Elephant above, and her concern with the quote from Dallin H. Oaks in the documenatry where he said:

"It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church, even if that criticism is true."

As a faithful member of the LDS church, I am surprised myself by the way he phrased that. In reality, we as members of the church are very often given the opportunity to either officially sustain or oppose our leaders and authorities. If we oppose them or are aware of any act they may have done that would be in direct violation to their calling and/or the commandments of God, then of course we are given the opportunity to express ourselves on the matter concerning us about the leader we oppose. When appropriate, an investigation by other church authorities will be conducted and if indeed, that opposed leader is out of line, it will be addressed with that leader, and in some instances, will lead to the removal of that leader from their position and in extreme cases the dis fellowship or even excommunication of that leader.

I am confident that what Dallin Oaks meant when he said it is wrong to criticize leaders even if it's true, it is wrong for members to openly criticize and oppose a leader because of the threat of disorder and conflicts it could cause among different members. Even if it was true that a leader had done something wrong and there was indisputable evidence of it, it would still not be very Christian like to parade such evidence around in an open and public forum where it could cause more unnecessary damage and harm to that leader's personal reputation. Instead, such matters should be submitted to another authority in a more private forum where proper investigation and discipline action can take place.

Hi Don,

This beautiful hymn was penned by Eliza R. Snow after Joseph Smith made a comment to her to the effect that surely if she had a Father in Heaven she also a had a Mother in Heaven as well.

But there has never been a "thus saith the Lord" revelation as far as we know on Heavenly Mother. It's not in our cannon of scriptures so LDS speculate about this ambiguity. I think most find the idea of Heavenly Mother comforting and appealing and it continues to be speculated about.

In the LDS Proclamation to the World on the Family it does state that "ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny." SO the idea of heavenly parents is clear but more than that remains again ambiguous.

Hope that helps and thanks for taking the time to try to understand and even articulate our doctrine respectfully -- that's really appreciated

Jess,

Are you OK? I am worried about you. Please check in.

I'm not a Mormon, and take no position (here) on its validity, but even I can explain the hymn that other posters misinterpret to say God has wives. LDS believes the family survives this world. The hymn is not referring to God or his wife/wives -- it's referring to the parents of the singer, who the singer expects to be reunited with -- as part of a family unit -- when s/he reaches heaven, and the hope that s/he will have satisfied his/her parents.

Someone in the LDS church -- do I have that right?

I AS A MEMBER OF THE LDS CHURCH HAVE LEARNED TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND PEOPLE FROM OTHER RELIGIONS OR BELIEFS , I ALSO THINK THAT TO MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT OTHER RELIGIONS I HAVE TO BE VERY INFORMED ABOUT THEM ,I CONSIDER IT TO BE VERY IRRESPONSIBLE TO MAKE ASSERTIONS ON SOMETHING I DONT KNOW OR DONT UNDERSTAND , EVERYBODY HAVE THE LIBERTY OR WILL TO INVESTIGATE OR LEARN FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY LEARNING THE TRUTH, BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY YOU CAN BE SURE ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE READING OR LEARNING, (AND IF IT IS AS IM THINKING, THAT EVERYBODY COMMENTING ON RELIGION AND GOD , BELIEVES IN GOD )GO TO A QUIET PLACE ,GET DOWN ON YOUR KNEES AND OFFER A SINCERE PRAYER , ASK GOD TO LET YOU KNOW WHAT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR RELIGION OR SOMEBODY ELSE'S RELIGION AND BELIEVES ,GOD DOES NOT DISTINGUISH RELIGIONS ,SO IM PRETTY SURE HE WILL GIVE AN ANSWER , IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE TRY IT , IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IT , YOU HAVE NO PLACE TALKING ABOUT THIS TOPING .

Jeff,
Patrick (as in St. Patrick) explained the concept of the Trinity in Christianity using a shamrock (AD 400's). It's too bad he's not still around or he could explain it to you too.

God is one being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons: the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth), and the Holy Spirit.

The widely recognized Biblical foundations for the nature of the Trinity are in the Gospel of John along with other passages. Sorry! But there are NOT multiple gods in Heaven.

Tom,

If you don't know the source or meaning of 'Mayan Elephant' you must not be Mormon. Little known fact, Elephants were common and domesticated in the Americas as recently as a few thousand years ago, per the Book of Mormon.

Here are the details regarding the statistics, Bateman is a General Authority in the Mormon Church, and as such, cannot be criticized, even if the criticism is true. Don't shoot the messenger folks:

The LDS Church provides county-by-county membership numbers to the Utah Governor's Office each year to help make population projections. In a July series, The Tribune used those numbers to show the share of Utahns who are Mormon has declined annually for the past 15 years, changing the social and cultural make-up of the state one neighborhood at a time.

Bateman didn't disagree with the assessment, but did challenge the numbers used in The Tribune series. The membership numbers provided to the state only include people with known addresses.

"They represent all of the members whose records are in ward and branch units in the state," he said. "They are not to be absolute numbers in those areas."

Bateman said the count provided to the state doesn't include the 180,000 in-transit Mormons the church assigns to Utah's official LDS population. The official number is in the Church Almanac, published each year. The in-transit figure is derived by subtracting the count provided to the state from the official number.

Those lost Mormons come from a variety of circumstances. Some are in college or the military, others have moved recently for a job, many have drifted from the LDS Church or joined another faith. At least a few are dead.

"It's not just people who want to get away from the church," said Bateman, who did agree that many on the address unknown list are "less active." "Those are the people who don't make frequent contact with the church."

Inactive Mormons who rarely, if ever, attend church are included in all membership numbers. Brigham Young University professor Tim Heaton, who studies LDS demographics, estimates that between between half and one-third of those Mormons known to live in a ward do not attend church regularly. Most of those who attend regularly never fall into the address unknown file.

Usually, persons of families that move will request their membership records to be transferred to their new ward, or their bishop will do so on his own. This used to take days if not weeks, until the LDS Church started transferring members' records electronically in early 2004.

The transfers now take "nanoseconds," according to George Fisher, a former bishop in the Parrish Heights Ward in Centerville.

"If we have a new family move into the ward, we get a date of birth and a full name and punch it in," he said.

He estimated that at any one time somewhere between 5 percent and 10 percent of the 450 members of the ward "were in-transit."

"We didn't know who they were or where they were," he said. "If we couldn't find them, [their records] could be sent off to church headquarters."

Thousands are each year. About 50,000 names are added to Utah's in-transit list every year and about 90 percent of those new additions are found within the next 12 months, Bateman said.

Efforts to find the rest continue until the church receives a death notice or until the member would have reached the age of 110.

That means some of the people included in the worldwide tally of 12 million members are really dead, with life expectancy in the United States at about 78 years old, according to Mormon researcher David Stewart, who is planning a book on missionary efforts and LDS Church demographics.

Bateman said the in-transit high age of 110 is just to give membership department employees an upper end to the statistic, though he acknowledged that "it might be a little high."

Even after death, the church doesn't give up.

"We will get them on the other side of the veil anyway," Bateman said.

LDS leaders say scripture requires that they maintain membership records and search for those who they have lost.

They point to a section of the Book of Mormon that states "their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God."

To do so, the LDS Church has set up three "member locater" offices in Salt Lake City, American Fork and St. George that search for lost Mormons in the United States and Canada. Analysts search for the names and numbers of relatives through church records or online public access databases, Bateman said.

Those leads are then passed on to volunteer missionaries, mostly elderly couples, who serve as member locaters.

Just a quick comment about the mormon church being the fastest growing church, While they release their nubers on how many conversions htey have regularly they don't post the fact that they lose numbers at almost the same rate. Many people are leaving the morman faith for various reasons(myself being one of them,) but I think it is misleading for them not to share this information as quickly as they share what makes them look good. Mormonism is an abomination to God.

http://www.septemberdawn.net/?gclid=CJq8x8Xy9IsCFSilIwodrnhKYQ

Jeff,

"Let's face the facts here"

The apostle Stephen, as he was being stoned, looked up into heaven and saw God, AND the Son of Man (Jesus) standing on the right hand of God. Now, either God and Jesus are two separate beings, or else Christ was bent over standing on his own right hand.

Will you "face" that fact?

I am very disappointed in most of the remarks being posted. I have been a member all of my life. I have never been counseled to not use birth control, before I got married or any other time that I have meet with my leaders. I was never counseled to not attend higher education, or to stop attending once I got married. I know quite a few Latter Day Saint women who have degrees that work out-side of the home. I know families where the wife makes more than the husband. It seems like this is a forum to circulate all of the anti-Mormon rhetoric that feeds the misunderstandings/hatred about our religion. If you have honest questions or want to know more, just asks a Latter Day Saint, they would be happy to answer any of your questions without forcing our religon on you!

Jeff,
"Hymns are just songs, not doctrine"?
What planet are you from? Kolob?

The official hymnal of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints uses MANY traditional Christian hymns that are also found in other church's hymnals. But, hymns that refer to the Trinity or other non-Mormon doctrine are never contained in the LDS hymnal.

Why? Because of doctrinal differences!
So the fact that the LDS church has a hymn (or hymns) about the wife (or wives) of God shows that it IS doctrine.

If your argument is correct, why doesn't the church's hymnal contain non-doctrinal Christian hymns like "God in three Persons, Blessed Trinity"???

No offense, but face the facts here.

PUNKY'S DILEMMA---Whoa there....your comment:

"As for birth control, it is often practiced discretely by mormon couples. However, it is often discouraged by local leadership when advising young couples who are about to marry. Additionally, the mormon leadership officially chastised men for marrying women with more education than their spouses (this was during their twice yearly general conference). Mormon women are discouraged from working, finishing their educations before marrying or childbearing, and from working outside of the home. This creates enormous economic and social problems for mormon women and young mormon couples.

Women who pursue education are often treated with fear and suspicion, and often receive both subtle and explicit social sanctions from mormon leadership and mormon membership. There is a great deal of inner conflict that mormon women experience around the issues of birth control, sexuality, and education."

About the only statement within these two paragraphs that was correct was the comment on women being discouraged from working outside the home WHILE THEY HAVE YOUNG CHILDREN AT HOME. An LDS women is not discouraged from seeking an education or a career. In fact, they are encouraged to seek as much education as possible. However, they are taught that THERE IS A TIME AND SEASON FOR EVERYTHING. This means that if they have young children at home, the philosophy, which I agree with wholeheartedly, is that they should be the priority and it is best for the family if the mother stays at home to raise them.

I converted after I already had two children. I had already made a concious decision to stay home with them and any other child I would have. I grew up Catholic so having a lot of kids was on my agenda already. I was so fertile that to avoid having back to back children, I had to use birth control. It was never discouraged because the LDS leaders recognize that every couple should make this decision on their own---they are in partnership with God, and it is Him who should let them know how many and when to bring new spirits into this world. I currently have given birth to 7. During that time, I went to school part-time and continued the education I started in my younger days. Never ever did a church leader tell me not too, In fact, I was respected for it. Currently, I am working as a structural engineer, and guess what? My husband has no degree at all. Has their been any backlash with this situation? No.

Hymns are just songs, not doctrine.

The comments made about church leadership discouraging men to marry women with more education than them and suspicions regarding women who choose to continue educational pursuits are ridiculous. I am a LDS woman with a BA and MPA degree and work outside the home in a professional job. Additionally, I am married and have 3 children. I have never felt discouraged in pursuing education or a career by my husband, family, or anyone within the church.

From an outside perspective, it seems like a lot of people are intimidated by the Mormon church's success. It seems like a lot of people would like to discount all of the great things the Mormon church does. A friend of mine went to the Mormon church (not a Mormon) for help. He had no food or money and they took great care of him. Why we can't we focus on the positives. It seems like a lot of you are trying to pick on the Mormons. Very very disappointing to me.

We're supposed to take Mormonism as a serious faith?! Hardly!

Compare this statement from the official Website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons):

"'The MOTHER' is not a term that is used among Church members, in Church meetings, classes or lesson manuals...there are no teachings about a Heavenly MOTHER in Latter-day Saint scripture."

Now, contrast that to this Mormon Hymn (number 292) "O My Father" in the official hymnal of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"In the heav'ns are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I've a MOTHER there.
When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by,
Father, MOTHER, may I meet you In your royal courts on high?
Then, at length, when I've completed All you sent me forth to do,
With your mutual approbation Let me come and dwell with you."

Their own hymnal contradicts their media statement and supports the commonly known Mormon belief that God has a wife (or wives) in Heaven.

Sources:
--abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2898726&page=1
--www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=0b8139628b88f010VgnVCM100000176f620aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f5f411154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD
--www.lds.org/churchmusic/detailmusicPlayer/index.html
--en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Mother

---------
Additional Sources:
www.rethinking-mormonism.com
www.irr.org/mit/default.html
www.lifeafter.org
www.carm.org/mormon.htm
www.mazeministry.com
home.teleport.com/~packham/temples.htm
www.nowscape.com/mormon/mormcr1.htm
lds.org
www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/endowment.shtml
www.exmormon.org/whylft50.htm

First of all I am not a Mormon, never have been. I am good old Southern Baptist! What is up with your name Mayan Elephant. Maybe I should make up a name as well. Many statements that have been made are not factual.

Tom,

Could you be funnier? That is awesome. So, the original post uses information that is demonstrably false because it is repeated constantly in publications all around the world. And, not a single active Mormon can bother telling her the truth, with support. Then, when someone does explain the situation better, they get assailed by Mormons, called a liar, and told they are intolerant.

Intolerant? Intolerant of what? Tell me what was intolerant.

I have plenty of tolerance for other people. Including and especially for mormon people. I have no tolerance for lies and deception, do you?

What is your factual source. Obviously you have been duped!

"Women who pursue education are often treated with fear and suspicion, and often receive both subtle and explicit social sanctions from mormon leadership and mormon membership. There is a great deal of inner conflict that mormon women experience around the issues of birth control, sexuality, and education."

While I cannot speak for all members in the world, women are encouraged to get an education, use whatever form of birth control they want and be as sexual as they want- within the restraints of marriage.

I am 25. I grew up in the church and the girls who weren't going to college were encouraged to do so. Sure some girls go to school just to get their "MRS." degree- but come on, girls outside the LDS faith do that too (they go to college expecting to meet a future doctor/lawyer/CEO/etc and they marry). Out of the 15 girls in my age group in Michigan, 14 went on to get Associate or Bachelor degrees. 3 more went on to get graduate degrees. Are they all married now- well 14 of them are- me included. Out of my 10 closest friends I went to BYU with- all finished their degrees, some were even married before they finished. Again, 4 of these friends went on to earn master degrees and one is working on her PhD. They didn't go to school for "Home-making Sciences" They are geologists, cancer drug researchers, chemists, art historians, classic literature professors, and in my case, technical writers. Educated women are not treated with fear and suspicion. Maybe in prior generations- but not today! Educated women are the expectation now. After all, the church is so big on stay-at-home-moms- do you think they want idiot moms raising idiot children? If you think yes- think about it from what you do understand- money. Idiot children don't get as educated. Which means they get worse jobs making less money- and their 10% tithing is WAY lower than if the people were educated. Just a conspiracy theory for ya.

Granted this is all from my limited experience- but I've read the general conference talks. I've been to the CES broadcasts. I work with the young women in the church. We are told we need to have an education. We are told it is our decision on when to have a family and if we want to use birth control- go for it. the prophet doesn't make decisions on our bedroom decisions. We can even have sex however we want as long as we (my husband and I) are both comfortable with it. Do you get these messages about sexuality in the youth program at the family congregations? No- but you sure do get them in the young single adult wards and in the adult programs in the family congregations.

I will agree that we do get pressure, as women, to stay home if we start a family. Do i agree with that? No WAY! But churches in general conform to some sort of patriarchal "family values" setup when it comes to my home. I don't subscribe to it- so what should I care that other women do.

Jess,

Sorry. It is true about the 110 years number. Really. Dont fight it.

You have been lied to, again.

It sucks when you get caught defending the Church for their lies and cover-ups, I know, I have been there too.

The pill issue is a sorta funny. I think the original post is spot-on regarding the marker that birth control was for the church.

As for the counsel by the leaders, that is a bit tricky. When I was in a leadership position, I had access to manuals for the leaders. I distinctly recall, and this was not very long ago, that it said that vasectomies were an abomination and it STRONGLY discouraged them. I know of at least one member that spoke to me because he was torn between that counsel and wanting a vasectomy.

I was very prayerful at the time, so I closed my eyes briefly and said, "Dude, just do it. This paragraph sounds like Bruce McDonkey. That guy is nuts." Ok, I may have said Conkie, but I should have said Donkey. Snip-Snip.

It is funny that a few of you are still trying to rip on the Mormon Church. Get a life. Don't you have anything better to do than talk about how many members are in the church and how they calculate it. Geez, you people should be ashamed of yourself. Don't you have any tolerance of other people. This country was formed on tolerance.

The last comment is making it a lot of things up. Where do you get this 110 year old stuff. That is 110% false. That is like saying the grass in blue outside. I can make up things too. Women in the church are not taught in any way not to use birth control. I wonder where this person gets their information? The National Enquirer?

GB,

Yes, they do report those numbers you mentioned. children born, total membershiop and Convert Baptisms. Though, I stand by my assessment that the numbers reported are very cryptic.

Growth is very important to the faith of the membership. Growth is verification that prophecy is being fulfilled, it validates the sacrifices and work of so many volunteers. There are scriptures in the Book that have been interpreted to suggest that every member should be counted. So, every year, the membership number goes up, no matter what.

I do not contend that the numbers are not going up, only that there is some Enron-like accounting and Multi Level type Marketing, mingled with Otterson-Spin. And, that the bogusness of the statistics leads folks like Ms. Thistlethwaite to be misinformed about the growth.

For example, there is a HUUUUUGE pool of names for which the church has no address and no contact information for the members. These are people that have chosen to not make contact with the church and are probably tired of being contacted to come back and pay their tithing. The pool of names is huge. The church uses their database to contact extended family members to try and relocate each of these people so they can send missionaries or local members to find them. In most cases, the family members tell the dial-4-lost-mormon volunteer to go to hell. Occasionally, the family member gives up the info.

Example continued, the names of those people that are unknown are kept on the records of the church, and reported as part of the membership total, until their 110th birthday. Actually, it may be until their 111th birthday, but regardless, its well beyond the average expiration date. That alone grossly inflates the numbers.

If you take the above example into consideration when factoring in the number of unfindable international converts and members, it is a joke.

Retention of new converts is not even close to 50%. I doubt it has been close to 50% at any point in your lifetime. By that I mean, at the end of a year, probably even after a few months, a new convert is rarely seen again by the local members. Sure, there are exceptions, but its rare. Very rare.

Lets get real. In France, they have closed three missions. In Germany, missions are closing. Jeff Holland spent years in Chile, closing Stakes and wards. The same was done in the Phillipines. The Church is selling buildings in the Avenues of SLC because of declining membership. There is some growth and construction of buildings in new subdivisions, I will give you that. The temple attendance is down. Number of missionaries is still down from decades ago.

I am not saying that the church is shrinking or that it is disappearing. Do not take that from what I am sharing. I am however saying that the church is not as big as they claim. This does not discount the amazing successes of individual Mormons, they can be amazing people. But, for some reason, the self-declared uncriticizable leaders feel the need to exagerate the growth.

A fun tidbit. In the statistics of the church, there are multiple years where the change in total membership exceeded births plus converts. Thats funny. What a miracle, nobody died that year. Miracle of Miracles.

The church keeps the following statistics: sacrament meeting attendance for the final month of each quarter, number of temple recommend holders, exact names of all tithe payers and whether they pay full or partial tithing based on their income, number of priesthood ordinatiions at every priesthood level. All of these statistics would better reveal the growth, however, for obvious reasons, most of them I actually agree with, the church does not disclose those numbers. Instead, we have the total number of mormons that, if they were still living and if they were born after 1896, have a name in a database.

One of the significant characteristics of Fundamentalism is the emphasis it places on revleation when it comes to evaluating the authority of the primary books (whether those books be the Torah, New Testament, or the Quo'ran) of the respective faith. Specifically, Fundamentalism considers the authority of each these books (typically to the exclusion of all others) to come directly from God, and to be absolutely internally consistent and true.

It seems to me that, since virtually ALL fundamentalist sects are on the rise, it is not really surprising that Mormonism (which, even in it's more mainstream form, still regards the Book of Mormon as a direct presntation from God) is also increasingly popular.

What puzzles me more is why fundamentalist sects, in general, are so increasingly popular. Given that, intellectually, we've progressed through the various ages (Enlightenment, Industrial, Technological, Information, etc) it is surprising that, in the practice of our religion, instead of advancing and broadening our views of God and religion, we are instead retreating to more mystical, absolute, and exclusive explanations.

I just wanted to comment briefly on two issues: membership numbers and women's rights in the mormon church.

Actually, the mormon church reports membership numbers that include people that no longer attend the church, and if there is no record of a death a name is counted in the membership rolls until a person is 110 years old.

Because approximately 1/2 of the people the church officially counts as members do not attend, and because the mormon church often reports much higher membership numbers than obtained in census counts by various countries, membership numbers reported by the mormon church are dubious and misleading.

As for birth control, it is often practiced discretely by mormon couples. However, it is often discouraged by local leadership when advising young couples who are about to marry. Additionally, the mormon leadership officially chastised men for marrying women with more education than their spouses (this was during their twice yearly general conference). Mormon women are discouraged from working, finishing their educations before marrying or childbearing, and from working outside of the home. This creates enormous economic and social problems for mormon women and young mormon couples.

Women who pursue education are often treated with fear and suspicion, and often receive both subtle and explicit social sanctions from mormon leadership and mormon membership. There is a great deal of inner conflict that mormon women experience around the issues of birth control, sexuality, and education.

The reason that retention is so high is because to get your name off of the records you have to write letters to different church locations, call bishops, endure critisicm, and beg to taken off. I have experienced trying to get taken off the records even though I was never a "mormon convert".

I really have to wonder where people go to get their information.

I have been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for some time. Many times in my membership I have run into the criticisms of those that feel they are knowledgable about my faith. My best effort is to tell you that you should study any matter before you report on it. Use reputable sources for your data gathering. Google is great for fun but it will not give you truth about important matters.

In any study of matters as important as religious preference, diligence should be used and caution advised in finding proper information to study. Go to the religious source and study them from their perspective and learn of them. Then you will be qualified to say what they believe. Furthermore, try having an open mind when you study and take only that with you. Leave room to learn from others what things they have to share. You may be surprised to find that "Mormons" aren't scary or strange. They are devoted and loving people that believe what they feel is the truth. To you, truth may not compare equally but "we" The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not condemning you for your beliefs. We feel you have as much right to yours as we do to ours.
Ask us, we will share. You do not have to believe to be educated with the truth.

As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I am disappointed to read the comments above because there are things stated that are simply not true.

While we as Mormons do hold family and the family unit as extremely important in our faith, I can assure you that whether or not a female member of the Church decides to use the Pill, is a private matter - one that is between her and her husband. As a female convert to the faith, and a member for 10 years, I couldn't be more adamant when I say that NOONE within the Church has ever approached me regarding the use of contraceptives and noone ever will. We are not counselled or instructed to not use such because we believe that having a family or not, is between a husband and a wife.

Mayan Elephant,

Actually, the church does report on its membership numbers. During 2006, it had 272,845 convert baptisms and 94,006 children placed on the records due to their families already being church members. See lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-690-3,00.html. Therefore, unless I have misunderstood what you were saying, your statement that "the church is growing primarily through births" seems to be inaccurate.

Retention is a challenge, indeed, as it is for all churches. I'm not sure how you're defining "retention" when you say "retention of those converts is very small." The hope for all members of the Church of Jesus Christ is that they will attend Sunday services every week. Based on my experience as a lifelong church member and former full-time missionary, I'd say about 50% of converts hit that goal. The other half of converts do not. 50% is certainly not where we'd like to be, but I wouldn't call it a "very small" percentage. If you define "retention" more literally as whether a convert chooses to have his his/her name removed from the church membership roles, then I'd guess the retention number is more like 99.9%. In my experience, a very tiny fraction of church members (even those who don't attend church at all) take that step.

Thanks a lot for your incisive analysis, Miss Thistlewaite.

As a Mormon, I find it distressing that the coalition of old racists has reformed to discriminate against gays. It is unfortunate that Mormon leaders and the religious right are chosing to pursue their self-interest with fear and scapegoating.

Christ is about faith, hope and charity. The political agenda of the Mormon leaders is about doubt, fear, and hate.

In the old days, Mormon leaders warned us that African Americans want to marry their daughters. These days, they prophesy the demise of the family because Jack and John are getting married.

Gordon Hinckley teaches us that we are good if we love our own children. Christ taught that even the heathen love their own. He set the bar higher and demanded that we love our enemies and respect their rights.

All of us have a long way to go with respect to Christlike love. But Mormonism and the religious right are confusing genetic self-interest for Christlike love.

That would not be a problem, if this confusion would not justify the hate and persecution of vulnerable minorities: in the old days African Americans, today homosexuals, women's advocates, and academics.

Ms. Thistlethwaite,

As Thankful pointed out, this is not the fastest growing Church. You can find confirmation of their growth and comparisons to other groups at lds.org and in a study done by the Graduate Center of the City University of New York.

Also, it is true that polygamist groups are not part of the current version of the LDS Church. The current version, which is the most well known, is the group that followed Brigham Young (Brighamites), other groups have the same origin in Joseph Smith but no longer recognize the Brighamite leader, Gordon Hinckley, as their prophet.

The church is growing primarily through births. Sure, there are converts, but the retention of those converts is very small. Though, the church publishes very cryptic statistics and you may never see the meaningful numbers.

I am too young to know the details of LDS activities during the ERA movement though I find it fascinating. I have read the autobiography of Sonja Johnson. It is a sad image of the church, in my opinion.

The legacy of that period is still felt in the church. The message that echoes from that time is that this church is run by men, it will always be run by men, men know what is best for women, so there. The same message and tactics are being employed with regards to homosexuals and civil rights for lesbians and gays. For example, during the Prop 22 debates leading up to election day mormons were enlisted in the fight. Personal financial records of tithing donations were used to determine amounts that members should pay to campaign efforts to oppose gay rights. Those members were called in by ecclesiastical leaders and shown the amount they were expected to pay. Sure, it was voluntary but given the oaths and promises made in the temple, it wasn't perfectly voluntary.

The question at hand is mainstreaming. Individually, Mormons can fit into any environment or profession. However, as an institution they will continue to be judged by their white, male, heterosexual, rigid and out of touch leadership. That may not be so mainstream, thank god and goddess.

As I have posted in response to other contributors, in the recent broadcast of Helen Whitney's The Mormons, Dallin Oaks is quoted as saying, "It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church, even if that criticism is true."

That comment, rather, that standard, should prohibit any institution, especially one that is a fortune 100 company a religion and a major political force, from ever becoming mainstream. And more, any leader that considers himself protected from criticism, especially if criticism is merited based on 'true' acts, should be feared and closely monitored. Contrary to the opinions of Mormons and their PR hack, Mikey Otterson, criticism of these leaders is not anti-American. Questioning authority is actually core to the very spirit that made this country a place where a young cat could start an American Religion that would last hundreds of years.

the penalty for having more than one spouse should be to allow for having more than one spouse. sounds like a 60's hippie comune - everyone loves everyone - literally.
if that is the worst thing you can say you are digging for problems.
now that said, forcing young girls to leave their childhood to marry an old man is just wrong, and its wrong no matter what religions you are. in islam moho did a 9 year old and the first thing they did in iran after getting rid of the sha was to drop the age of consent to 9.
so dump the little girls for old men and i have no problem with mormons even having more than one wife. what fool would want more than one wife or husband?

"'Plural marriage' is still practiced by the more 'fundamentalist' segment of the Mormon church."

There is no "'fundamentalist' segment of the Mormon church." The first sentence of the article correctly defines "Mormon church" as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That church has no "segments" in it. It is one church with one set of beliefs, and polygamy has not been among those beliefs since 1890 (even then, it was practiced by only a small percentage of the church members). Those who practice polygamy are not members of that church, and if they were they would be excommunicated. Many polygamists believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God (and therefore they are sometimes confused with the Mormon church), but they are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They are members of other churches with separate membership roles.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormonism) is the fastest growing world religion."

I wish I could say that this were true but actually the Jehovah's Witnesses have us beat.

Also, there is nothing unorthodox in the LDS faith currently for Mormon women to take the pill. LDS greatly value families and children and the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth BUT the decision of when and how many is one couples make together prayerfully on thier own.

In my experience, In every LDS ward/congragation it seems there are a couple of families that amazingly have 7 or 8 kids but I would say the Mormon average is around 3 or 4 --. Just my opinion

This article seems to imply the official LDS stance on birth control is a no, never policy but for the record, that is not the case and many LDS women take birth control intermitantly throughout thier lives myself included.

"The LDS church centers its theology on a normative, heterosexual, procreative family."

Actually, the idea of Eternal Families is probably what most obviously sets us a part from other Christians but Jesus Christ is at the center of our theology.

This fact often gets lost when we are being compared to other religions and it is helpful in such discussions to point out where we differ however, step into any LDS meeting, read the Book of Mormon or listen to our Prophet and LDS devotion to Christ permiates our worship as the center of our faith.

The appeal to those who convert to this faith is the convicion that they have found Christ's church, organized with apostles and prophets who can administer the ordinances of salvaiton, lead the work of the gathering of Israel and inspire and lead the development of a Zion ready people to meet Christ at his return.

I hope these are some stereotypes on us that folks might check off the list and try to learn a bit more about :)

"Conservative politicians and religious leaders have capitalized on fears of changing roles for women and the gay rights movement and thus both religion and society have become more conservative."

So what you are saying is that "conservative politicians and religious leaders" collectively control religion and society through fear? Sounds like anti-conservative rhetoric to me.

My opinion is that people in society can think for themselves; today's youth observed and rejected the cultural excesses of the 1970s and are returning to a more sensible cultural climate.

The Equal Rights Amendment was a mistake and I am glad the Mormons were opposing it while the rest of society was smoking pot.