Fortunately There's Atheism in the Bible

A modern, objective, scientific view of the evils you mention will force one to conclude that God, if he exists, does not intervene in the affairs of men. Both the good and the evil that we see around us are the works of men, or the result of chance. If we believe that God exists but that he does not intervene in the affairs of humans, then we are Deists. And the Founding Fathers of our country were primarily Deists, too.

Someone told me the story of a man who was caught in the World Trade Center on 9/11 and prayed mightily to escape. Of course, we know this story only because he did escape. But if his escape was the work of God, then what about the other 2900 who did not escape? Did God decide that they deserved to die? I think not. God did not intervene. The evil was simply the work of men.

A modern, objective, scientific view of the evils you mention will force one to conclude that God, if he exists, does not intervene in the affairs of men. Both the good and the evil that we see around us are the works of men, or the result of chance. If we believe that God exists but that he does not intervene in the affairs of humans, then we are Deists. And the Founding Fathers of our country were primarily Deists, too.

Someone told me the story of a man who was caught in the World Trade Center on 9/11 and prayed mightily to escape. Of course, we know this story only because he did escape. But if his escape was the work of God, then what about the other 2900 who did not escape? Did God decide that they deserved to die? I think not. God did not intervene. The evil was simply the work of men.

Not that I am currently a Believer, but the idea of a Cosmic or Pre-Cosmic person intrigues me, so I find God to be an interesting concept to discuss. Now if God is merely "interested" in seeing what happens - like a naturalist studies animal behaviour - then is God morally responsible for what happens in the world?

And if God is concerned with the world's affairs, could there be a limitation on God's knowledge, even for a being "outside" time and thus "eternal"? I think so - there's no way of knowing, in advance of events actually happening, what will actually happen. Multi-body systems behind most physical processes have no closed form algorithm for mere computation and can only be simulated - modelled. But chaos effects multiply the imprecision in the inputs used and so such systems can't be known by coarse-grain simulation. A sufficiently precise simulation will be the equivalent of the system being simulated i.e. nothing is gained.

God must let events take their course to see where the system - our world - will go. Such limits to even perfect knowledge might make even an Omnipotent God a mere spectator.

Tim, I suppose if you really, really want to believe, that makes sense to you.

Alright so I'm reading this book called "Disappointment with God" by Philip Yancey. I'm about 3/4 of the way through it and I have to say he does a great job dealing with the question "is God unfair?"

Basically, his answer is that yes, God is fair but life is not. The problem that people run into is equating life with God. God is not life. Even God himself, as Christ, was subjected to the unfairness of life as a human - he had compassion on those who were sick, he wept at the funeral of a friend, he was betrayed, he was murdered.

God knows life isn't fair because of the freedom that he gave man. I'm not a deist, but we know that a perfect world would mean that God were in control of our wills.

Fortunately, Jesus made a way for us to get through the unfairness of life to the other side.

God is fair but because of the fall of man life isn't.

The Book of Wisdom Chapter 1:2 Because he is found by those who test him not. Who are these Jews to put God on trial, I should pray to God for the authority to judge the quick and the dead right here and now. God does not destroy. That is not the work of God, but destruction signals the work of Lucifer and sends a signal that faith in God is lacking. Do not blame Lucifer for your sins, for God's creation is doing what God created the arc angel to do. And NO ONE does it better! NO ONE!!!!!! Put yourselves on trial you foolish slayers of brother Jesus. You condemn Mel for telling you the truth. Do you really think you are THAT special? You are only that spoiled rotten and again you make this one SICK. Obey the Word or so help me God!!!!!!!

Job questions God on all of these things and God's response is that He is God.

Towards the end of the Roman empire, in the time of Diocletian, they had a God called Fortuna (for luck) and one called Victory (self explanatory). These concepts seemed to demand a deity that could be propitiated (even if nobody believed in them). Nowadays most people would find those gods silly, but people still like to do that -- to find a phenomenon or a concept and deify it or personify it. It is a childish tendency and it leads nowhere.

Departments of Theology at universities provide a place for people to get paid for doing this.

SOK7

What you are saying if there is no time in relation to a concept of God is that there can be no cause and effect. God could not have created anything then as it is and exists no beginning and no end. So to does our doing anything become an illusion. If as you suggest time does not really exist then we cannot be "doing" anything, therefore how can we be punished or rewarded.

The real problem here is suggesting that there is a God but when pressed to define him/it what ever and you see that your definition falls on it's face you resort to saying that "God" can not be defined. That is a cop out. Either your concept can be defined and understood and proved or ir is arbitrary. There is no reason to accept your illusion of reality except your use of fear. "You beleive in what I do or you shall burn in hell, and if you do not still believe then I will burn you at the stake for the sake of your immortal soul."

You said:

"God created the Universe and therefore it is logical to assume that he lives outside of it and is not bound by its limitations. Therefore, God is not bound or limited by time, as we are."

No it is not logical, because you are start with a given that you have not proved. God is not proved or defined. you only claim that "Well we don't know anything about God so he must live outside of time"

If you think Saint Augustaine had a inkling or the concept of time, read the writings of hindu mystics. They were thinkers. Much of what they thought over time came to be understood as a a religion and mysticism regretably.

You sound like any shaman or mystic or Druid or Preacher. The only God you can define is the God of the Gaps. "We have Gaps in our knowledge therefore God must exist?" I think not. We have slowly eliminated many Gods and Devils as an explanation for how the world works. Most parts of the world we are down to one two or three, depending on your outlook.

You are an Atheist also. Do you beleive in Odin, Zeus, The Coyote, or Shiva? No, nor do you beleive in tree sprites, fairies. Then again I have come across Christians that do beleive in them but just call them Demons. But if you don't you are an Atheist which is anti-theist about those beings.

Do you fear to walk under ladder that you may disrespect Gods? Do you knock on wood like the druids? Do you cross your fingers, read Astrology Horoscopes and beleive that the future really is in them? Do you really beleive that a man having a epileptic seizure is demon possessed? Jesus did, and supposedly cast out the demons into a poor farmers swine herd. Poor pigs, what did they do? What did the farmer do that his livleyhood should be killed and stolen from him by Jesus. I wonder if Jesus ever restored those pigs to the farmer or paid him for the damage. The Bible doesn't say so.

But being the most perfect and moral man to have lived, despite stealing an ass, and telling his folowers that they must disrespect their parents, and condoning slavery, and the beating of them, he must have done such a thing so moral as paid for the damages he did to others? I doubt it. The real message in that fairy tale is lost to most of the world I suspect.

We expect that children will outgrow, beleiving in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or having an imaginary friend. That when they reach adulthood we will have taught them right from wrong, and as a consequence being able to discern what is real and what is not. The problem is as a whole this is a "Demon Haunted World" and there are still far to many superstitious Adults. Especially in places of great power. Really said that adults with the ability of children to reason are by and large in control.

Luckily there are at least a few sane, and rational individuals out there.

Arthur,

I feel the piece missing from your analysis is Time. Because in our mortal lives we are trapped in time, it is very difficult for us to think outside this box.

Time is a property of the Universe, much as gravity is a property of matter. Once free from all bodies of matter, there would be no gravity. The same principle applies to time. Once free of the Universe, there is no time.

Scientists are even now involved in studies that they believe will prove this conclusively, but it was Saint Augustine who first suggested this radical idea 1500 years ago.

God created the Universe and therefore it is logical to assume that he lives outside of it and is not bound by its limitations. Therefore, God is not bound or limited by time, as we are.

So how can God be both all knowing and grant men free will? By heavenly perspective there is no past or future: we all are born and die at the same instant. The earth is engulfed in a dying sun as it is being created of cosmic dust. God doesn't know the future because there is no future from his prespective - the conscequences of men's acts occur at the same instant as the acts that create them. For lack of a better description - everything we do happens at the same time.

The paradox, if there is any, is that men have trouble conceiving of an existance that is not limited by time and we insist on placing that same limitation on God.

GERRY- im not sure where it occurs in the bible- ill give my own humble interpertations-
from what i understood when i read it-(admittedly a looong time ago) it wasnt eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that was punished-
it was the disobedience to god.
and it wasnt death that was the punishment- but banishment from the garden.(which i took to mean alienation from direct interaction with god- my mom on the other hand thought that they were from outer space and the weather control mechanism broke and they got stuck here)
also ive always maintained that since god gave the instruction to adam- and not to eve- adam bore the ultimate responsibility-
also for all we know it was gods intention to give them the knowledge of good and evil- but they proved non- trustworthy-

so- the recompense for disobeying god was alienation from his being(this is all my thoughts tho)

there is a passage in the new testament that says
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH

ive always taken that to mean that the debt of sin is paid at death- paying a debt much different than punishment

im saying all this in the spirit of knowledge because you asked not proselytizing or anything

also im rusty at biblical speculation

In the book of Job, putting God on trial is the highest form of piety. It is morally necessary for Job to put God on trial and sinful if he acquits him. I think he can adjourn the trial but not pronounce an acquittal. http://www.bookofjob.org

Sure, go ahead and doubt. Of course you WILL go to Hell. The Bible is bursting at the seams that doubt is a sin. Job is far outweighed by the sheer girth of doubtfuls facing torture. So why assume that Job went to heaven even? Maybe god's little talk was just the interrogation before the Fire.

Just remember kiddies, if you DO doubt, the Bible is also bursting at the bindings with firm, unwavering declarations that doubt leads to nowhere but Hell unless it is soon corrected. Sure, you are allowed to doubt. Just be sure to get back to adoring God, or it's the Pit for you.

I admit that the existence of evil is seemingly a question that has caused many to base their denial of the supernatural or any god on, my eight year old son is one of them. My son goes to a private Catholic school because of the small class size. His Mother is a Believing Christian. He still believes in an old man that lives at the North pole However. He also knows that I am an atheist. He had friends at school letting him know that I was evil and was going to burn in Hell.

I Stopped believing in Santa Claus when I was 3 years old and sitting on his lap and noticed he had threads in his beard.

Curiously my questioning of the existence of a Omni-being had to do with the obvious paradox involved with such a being.

How does someone(thing?) that reportedly knows everything allow us to have free will? Being all-powerful and all-knowing means that they knew of our existence before they even created the universe. As such they knew before they created the universe who we were and what we would do, and who would end up in Hell. They are all-knowing remember? And as they are all-powerful what they know and think become reality.

It seemed to me somehow cruel to create a human already "flawed" and then condemn them for the flaw. So much for free will. Damned if we do and damned if we don't, he/she/it already knew what were going to do or not do.

To make it easier, ask your self this. Did God Know he was going to have destroy the world in the great Flood before he created it? If he did then why not just start with Noah? So we could learn a lesson? How can we? We are predestined to do what we do and our free will is an illusion, if This being some call GOD, (El, Yahweh, Emeth, Allah etc.) is truly Omnipotent and Omniscient.

This is a paradox. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Some have said that God is immune to paradox. The only thing that is immune to paradox is something that does not exist or is arbitrary. Neither concept is based in reality.

I read in the Wikipedia that the Cathars didn't swear oaths, because an oath placed one under the domination of this world. Compare this to John Locke's opinion that "promises, covenants and oaths, which are the bonds of human societies, can have no hold upon an atheist."

I also read that some Cathars were vegetarians not because of animal cruelty, but because sexual intercourse and reproduction propagated the slavery of spirit to flesh. The Perfecti (the Cathar version of the Pharisee) abstained from all animal food and anything considered to be a by-product of sexual reproduction, including cheese, eggs, milk and butter.

That's it. Point out all the BAD things in the world and call them evil. Ignorant! Evil means it has a body. Is killing people something with a body or is it just bad, the opposite of good? Get your definition of words correct Susan. Your ignorance is showing.

Preaching from the Bible, the word of the Devil isn't helping stop the killing? Small wonder. The Devil wants all those dead folks in hell does he not? What does God want? Almighty Gods get everything they want. It's the Devil and those who worship him that need to kill to get what they want.

Tomcat,

The theology of the Cathars may not make any sense to us today, but their dualism may well be a more accurate description of the nature of the world than any Christian description that has ever existed.

More important than the Cather's theology was how they lived their lives. The Christian common people who lived alongside them regarded them as highly enlightened good neighbors.

Compare the Cathars' Christianity-in-action with the behavior of the Roman bishop, who, when asked by the papist military commander how they could tell the Christians and Cathars apart in the besieged city, replied, "Kill them all. God will know his own!"

The Bishop was a perfect worshiper of Yahweh.

"You shall have no other gods before me" makes sense because the Old Testament abounds in competing gods. It's also possible that the Ignorant Demiurge suspected that his delusion of being the ultimate Godhead couldn't stand up to scrutiny.

It seems to me that human life is a kind of club. We're all members, all people leave the club, and some people never get admitted. If I met God I wouldn't ask Him about good and evil, I would ask him why certain people get into the club and others don't.

I take seriously the stories about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, for what are our myths but re-tellings of loved childhood stories? We want to believe in Santa. If belief is true, it should tell us something that we can understand as an adult, but cannot be explained to a child.

Whenever I read about the theology of the Cathars or other Gnostic tribes, they seem to me as wacky as the Scientologists are today. Good and evil gods multiply! The Old Testament God (the evil one) said "You shall have no other gods before me!", which doesn't make sense unless there was another god looking over his shoulder (Jesus in the New Testament).

Perhaps God is pure compulsion. Good and evil, love and hate, exist because they are required by the Universe, and the Universe exists because it couldn't be otherwise. We are living in the only of all possible worlds.

I think the main problem with the thoughts expressed by Dr. Thistlethwaite can be summed up with this one question: What the heck are you talking about? Everything about the big religions reeks of made up nonsense. How can an intelligent person pose these questions in sincerity? Horrors happen and the most profound question you can ask is "What role does my imaginary friend play in all this?" I just don't understand.

Gerry

There was one other sin in the Old Testament that I recall vaguely. I seem to remember Yahweh being quite upset when one of the Israelite leaders failed to follow his instructions by killing every single one of the men, women, children, and animals in the Canaanite city they were cleansing.

This trope is old, but it still bears noting that the Old Testament god is hardly a model for modern morality.

If I had to take sides in a debate over Job and his old testament "God", Yahweh, I'd agree with the Cathars, the noble people exterminated by the Pope and his French King ally in the ninth century.

The Cathars believed that Yahweh was a lesser diety created by God. Yahweh was deluded and believed himself to be the Ultimate Godhead ("God"), which he wasn't. Yahweh had the power to, and did, create the earth. Yahweh was essentially evil and the embodiment of darkness. Some saw him as Satan or Satan's agent.

The Cathers called Yahweh "the Ignorant Demiurge."

And this is the god still worshipped by fundamentalist Christians!

Still wondering why the world is as it is?

So Doc, what is the answer? Does evil exist because a woman once ate an apple on the advice of a talking snake? Is there an anti-God who causes mischief? Does believing in God -- or unicorns -- make me more or less likely to be a sociopath? Is there a correlation between cosmological world view and behavior?

My response is that the killing fields of Cambodia, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. etc. are not the reason I am atheist. I simply find the idea that there is a personified deity who demands our worship, who intervenes in our affairs, etc. etc. to be about as serious a notion as the stories about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

The problem of human behavior and the massive suffering it causes has to be attacked at another level.

Okay. So, that was sort of a half-article. Recently I've enjoyed the book "Celebrating the Wrath of God" by Jim Mcguiggan. It's a good, honest treatment of the subject by someone familiar with subject of suffering.

It occurs to me that if God is looking away, why isn't He paying more attention to us?

If an all-good God eliminated radical evil, what would the world look like? Would there only be local crimes, like ones you read about in the Metro section? Is there any level of evil that would stop you from worshiping God, perhaps a meteor that was coming that would destroy life on earth?

One explanation for radical evil is that God just sets the Universe in motion, stops paying attention to Earth, is occupied by onto another planet, and sends us a Moses or a Buddha or a Mohammed or a Jesus every so often to reset the moral mechanism. So the Holocaust happened because God was busy somewhere else.

Bob, FYI...atheism and secularism are two different things. One can be religious AND secular (i.e. believing that civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a religious element) without losing a bit of faith OR freedom. It's that whole "seperation of church and state" thing.

Other than that, good comment.

Atheism (secularism) is on the rise because of the ideas expressed in this column. There is no such thing as evil in the world, simply men doing evil things and more often with absolute conviction that god guides them is some way.

Also, responding to the question:

I don't think "vogue" is accurate; perhaps "on the rise," is more to the point.

The reasons are:

We are better educated.

Science is more easily available to greater numbers of educated people.

Religions offer no real indications of the emerging (global) future; in fact, they only create more violence and cultural fragmentation.

The Bush Administration's abuse of "faith based politics" to advance a radical right wing agenda, which has created a global distaster and meanaces the Constitution.

We are a secular democracy and we all know that.

Finally, we don't need to be "atheist" to hold any of these views. If there is no God, there can be no "atheist". The burden of proof is always on the believer, regardless of the theory.

Public debate means exactly that.

Very articulate, candid and intelligent. I can't imagine a better way to spend an afternoon than talking with Rev. Thistlewaite - and I'm Jewish. That said, I can't help but feel that she has punted, in the the final paragraph. Job's God is brutally heartless: His answer to Job's misery is essentially, Who are you to judge ME, you puny thing? Not terribly sympathetic. Later readers of the text must have felt the same discomfort I do, if you're right in saying that 42ff was added, because without that addendum the question of evil/death/tragedy is left entirely unanswered. And Job is left bereft. (In truth, I feel the addendum to be small recompense for what Job lost.)

The writer(s) of Job was clearly struggling to understand how horrible things could happen to innocent people. In the end, we are left with a shrug: God works in mysterious ways, or some such bromide.

Dr. Thistlewaite is right in saying that faith and doubt walk hand in hand. Faith without doubt ignores the realities of the world, the pain and loss and savagery. Doubt without faith, or at least the possibility of faith, is staring into a lightless abyss.

In the end, I am reminded of an apocryphal story from the Holocaust. One Friday evening, just before the Sabbath, a group of Jewish men in Auschwitz put God on trial. After some discussion, they found Him guilty on all counts. And then they lit the Sabbath candles and began to pray.

Thank you, Susan! It strikes me that a person who doubts and asks is so much more sympathetic to me than a person who "knows" and proselytizes.

But then, isn't the honest so-called "scientific" approach exactly this doubting and asking. Maybe common ground here?

Am I mistaken that in the Old Testament it is written that death is the reward for sin? The sin being (for Eva, btw!) to eat from the tree of knowledge, ergo doubting and asking, the quest for knowledge, is described and damned as sin. Death as the punishment for asking and doubting?

I doubt and ask, and beyond that, I admire the unfathomable grandeur and beauty of nature, with or without Darwin. It gives me more strength and spiritual comfort than any stories being told to me about fictitious conversations with god, as described in the different scriptures. (Bush also had some.) Why not regard evolution as the greatest of miracles and leave it at that? It is certainly a greater miracle than a guy walking on water...

Gerry

And what was the answer?