Happy to be of Service

Frank Collins:)

Of course we do. A man into war can only understand the language of another into war.

War, war, war and more war.

So, since you equate Muslims with Nazis and KKK, I was thinking that while the Nazi uniforms are neat, the KKK costume is better. All covered up in white sheets, just like hijabs.

What to trash it out in a trailer park and be a real spectacle to all sane people? :)

jihadist - now we understand each other.
"Religion and Suras should never be used to justify unjust and unprovoked war and acts of terrorism." that is islam speak meaning when islamics do is just and what infidels do is unjust.
yes we understand each other.

Frank Collins

You are my favourite "islamics" expert here.
So many quotes and examples of and on war? I wonder who's more into war. You are talking about illegal or unjustified invasion and occupation of countries.

This I know for certain - any foreign troops that invade my country without provocation, without justifcation, I too will fight to the death. Well, at least not to throw roses at their feet.

And I am sure, if the United States is invaded by Taliban from Afghanistan, all Americans would surely be bringing out all guns they have to do likewise. The NRA will be vindicated and have a field day.

Religion and Suras should never be used to justify unjust and unprovoked war and acts of terrorism. Likewise, secular national and international laws too.

I love it that you constantly remind Muslims that they are violent, they have to be violent, and if they are not, they they are going against God, the Al-Quran, and are such bad, bad, bad Muslims who will go to hell.

Ohhh I almost forgot....you demanded I reject hate and murder as part of Islam.

Certainly as a Muslim, I reject all hatred as espoused by you on all Muslims, and your murder of the English language in doing so.

That's a start eh, or have I misunderstood you?
And don't SHOUT! You sounds desperately breathless and hysterical here:)

It's been fun reading your posts. All the best Frank Collins.

jihadist:
i quote from the founding document s of islam, but if you want bin laden and his message of love - ok here it is:
statements from ubl in various statements re kill jews and christians.

Wednesday, 12 February, 2003, 00:56 GMT
Bin Laden tape: Text

The following is the full text of an audio message purported to be by al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden, broadcast on Arab television station al-Jazeera on 11 February.
In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate.

A message to our Muslim brothers in Iraq, may God's peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you.

O you who believe fear Allah, by doing all that He has ordered and by abstaining from all that He has forbidden as He should be feared.

Obey Him, be thankful to Him, and remember Him always, and die not except in a state of Islam [as Muslims] with complete submission to Allah.

We are following up with great interest and extreme concern the crusaders' preparations for war to occupy a former capital of Islam, loot Muslims' wealth, and install an agent government, which would be a satellite for its masters in Washington and Tel Aviv, just like all the other treasonous and agent Arab governments.

This would be in preparation for establishing the Greater Israel.

Allah is sufficient for us and He is the best disposer of affairs.

'Unjust war'

Amid this unjust war, the war of infidels and debauchees led by America along with its allies and agents, we would like to stress a number of important values:

First, showing good intentions. This means fighting should be for the sake of the one God.

It should not be for championing ethnic groups, or for championing the non-Islamic regimes in all Arab countries, including Iraq.

God Almighty says: "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil."

So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

Second, we remind that victory comes only from God and all we have to do is prepare and motivate for jihad.

God Almighty says: "Oh ye who believe! If ye will help the cause of Allah, He will help you and plant your feet firmly."

We must rush to seek God Almighty's forgiveness from sins, particularly the grave sins.

Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him, said: "Avoid the seven grave sins; polytheism, sorcery, killing, unless permitted by God, usury, taking the money of orphans, fleeing from combat, and slandering innocent faithful women."

Also, all grave sins, such as consuming alcohol, committing adultery, disobeying parents, and committing perjury. We must obey God in general, and should in particular mention the name of God more before combat.

'Media machine'

Abu-al-Darda, may God be pleased with him, said: "Perform a good deed before an attack, because you are fighting with your deeds."

Third, we realized from our defence and fighting against the American enemy that, in combat, they mainly depend on psychological warfare.

This is in light of the huge media machine they have.

They also depend on massive air strikes so as to conceal their most prominent point of weakness, which is the fear, cowardliness, and the absence of combat spirit among US soldiers.

Those soldiers are completely convinced of the injustice and lying of their government.

They also lack a fair cause to defend. They only fight for capitalists, usury takers, and the merchants of arms and oil, including the gang of crime at the White House.

This is in addition to crusader and personal grudges by Bush the father.

Trench warfare

We also realized that one of the most effective and available methods of rendering the air force of the crusader enemy ineffective is by setting up roofed and disguised trenches in large numbers.

I had referred to that in a previous statement during the Tora Bora battle last year.

In that great battle, faith triumphed over all the materialistic forces of the people of evil, for principles were adhered to, thanks to God Almighty.

I will narrate to you part of that great battle, to show how cowardly they are on the one hand, and how effective trenches are in exhausting them on the other.

We were about 300 mujahideen [Islamic militants].We dug 100 trenches that were spread in an area that does not exceed one square mile, one trench for every three brothers, so as to avoid the huge human losses resulting from the bombardment.

Since the first hour of the US campaign on 20 Rajab 1422, corresponding to 7 October 2001, our centres were exposed to a concentrated bombardment.

And this bombardment continued until mid-Ramadan.

On 17 Ramadan, a very fierce bombardment began, particularly after the US command was certain that some of al-Qaeda leaders were still in Tora Bora, including the humble servant to God [referring to himself] and the brother mujahid Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri.

The bombardment was round-the-clock and the warplanes continued to fly over us day and night.

War in Afghanistan

The US Pentagon, together with its allies, worked full time on blowing up and destroying this small spot, as well as on removing it entirely.

Planes poured their lava on us, particularly after accomplishing their main missions in Afghanistan.

The US forces attacked us with smart bombs, bombs that weigh thousands of pounds, cluster bombs, and bunker busters.

Bombers, like the B-52, used to fly over head for more than two hours and drop between 20 to 30 bombs at a time.

The modified C-130 aircraft kept carpet-bombing us at night, using modern types of bombs.

The US forces dared not break into our positions, despite the unprecedented massive bombing and terrible propaganda targeting this completely besieged small area.

This is in addition to the forces of hypocrites, whom they prodded to fight us for 15 days non-stop.

Every time the latter attacked us, we forced them out of our area carrying their dead and wounded.

'Alliance of evil'

Is there any clearer evidence of their cowardice, fear, and lies regarding their legends about their alleged power.

To sum it up, the battle resulted in the complete failure of the international alliance of evil, with all its forces, [to overcome] a small number of mujahideen - 300 mujahideen hunkered down in trenches spread over an area of one square mile under a temperature of -10 degrees Celsius.

The battle resulted in the injury of 6% of personnel - we hope God will accept them as martyrs - and the damage of two percent of the trenches, praise be to God.

If all the world forces of evil could not achieve their goals on a one square mile of area against a small number of mujahideen with very limited capabilities, how can these evil forces triumph over the Muslim world?

This is impossible, God willing, if people adhere to their religion and insist on jihad for its sake.

Iraqi 'brothers'

O mujahideen brothers in Iraq, do not be afraid of what the United States is propagating in terms of their lies about their power and their smart, laser-guided missiles.

The smart bombs will have no effect worth mentioning in the hills and in the trenches, on plains, and in forests.

They must have apparent targets. The well-camouflaged trenches and targets will not be reached by either the smart or the stupid missiles.

There will only be haphazard strikes that dissipate the enemy ammunition and waste its money. Dig many trenches.

The [early Muslim caliph] Umar, may God be pleased with him, stated: "Take the ground as a shield because this will ensure the exhaustion of all the stored enemy missiles within months."

Their daily production is too little and can be dealt with, God willing.

We also recommend luring the enemy forces into a protracted, close, and exhausting fight, using the camouflaged defensive positions in plains, farms, mountains, and cities.

The enemy fears city and street wars most, a war in which the enemy expects grave human losses.

Martyrdom operations

We stress the importance of the martyrdom operations against the enemy - operations that inflicted harm on the United States and Israel that have been unprecedented in their history, thanks to Almighty God.

We also point out that whoever supported the United States, including the hypocrites of Iraq or the rulers of Arab countries, those who approved their actions and followed them in this crusade war by fighting with them or providing bases and administrative support, or any form of support, even by words, to kill the Muslims in Iraq, should know that they are apostates and outside the community of Muslims.

It is permissible to spill their blood and take their property.

God says: "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other."

And he amongst you that turns to them [for friendship] is of them.

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2751019.stm

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm - On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

THERE IS MORE BUT WHY PUSH IT.
NOW QUIT ACTING LIKE YOU ARE THE DAI LAMA AND ISLAM IS JUST MISUNDERSTOOD - its like saying the kkk or the nazis are just misunderstood. we understand perfectly.

and i have a lot more from others preaching hate in the mosques.

AND WHEN WILL YOU REJECT HATE AND MURDER AS PART OF YOUR RELIGION?

Frank Collins:)

It seems that you are quoting all sorts of Suras and Hadiths in On Faith threads and no one else. As far as I can read on what you quoted, even Al Qaeda and Taliban did not. So, who is forcing Islam on whom, never mind the versions?

And thank you for your history lessons on Islam. I have been busy reading about the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Spaniards's conquest of Latin America etc.

Since WWII, more non-Muslims kill each other than Muslims. Even in Southeast Asia, The Burmese junta killed more Burmese, Pol Pot killed more Cambodians, Vietnamese killed more Vietnamese than Muslims of Southeast Asia can manage, and with more terrible atrocities than Muslims.

And to think that Cambodians, Vietnamese and Burmese are and were Buddhists, where life is sacred and one cannot, should not kill any living thing.

Are you going to do anything about the militant Theravada Buddhist monks of Sri Lanka too for their stance against Tamil Tigers, and the Buddhist monks of Thailand who wants to turn Thailand into a Buddhist state and engage in dubious practices that are not only contrary to Buddha's teachings, but never taught?

The fault is not in the Holy Texts my friend, but in the practioners.

Your scholarship is literalist, selective and consequently flawed. Muslims like to say that Islam is a way of life. You have to grasp that notion first, to see how Islam is seen by Muslims from Morrocco to Malaysia before making assesessments and judgements.

Muslims don't really look at everything in isolation. Hint : Cause and effect. Effect and impact. Individual upon society. Society upon individual. Way of life from Muslim perspective and beliefs - justice, peace, social justice, non-corrupt governance, self-respect, individual dignity etc.

You wasted so much time and energy quoting Hadiths and Suras instead of looking at Muslim societies as to how situations and conditions shaped believers' thoughts and actions.

And too bad you are applying only western thoughts and premises re your suppositions on the Muslim world. The Judeo-Western heritage, history and intellectual tradition is not exactly the same as the Muslim one. It is, as reflected by you - opposite and adversarial in thrust in the last thousand years and more.

All the best in your further quotations of Suras, Hadiths and Muslim history. What do you know and understand how I feel and think and why?

al-jandali- we hae been through this before. dont site parables of jesus and pretend it is his orders - he was telling as story about what others did - not commanding anyone to do it.
and yes i have said that the old testament shows the history of war and is bloody. but again there is no order - other than a specific battle - where jews are commanded to kill forever anyone not a jew.
ahmed - the above is for you too.
and did you not read why there wre crusades. it took 400 years of islamic attacks on the west before they reacted by hitting back and now you complain that you were attacked.
and when you quote luke - then look to see if it was a metaphor. there is an easy test - did he actually do it. now in the area of islam moho actually got involved in murder, torture, rape, etc. but where did jesus do anything like that, or allow his followers to do it, or order them to do it? its not there.
You keep mentioning the crusades - so i will say it again:
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.

And then you change gears and act as if its only me who thinks this way. Well here are 6 videos of islamic immans teaching in the mosques in the west and links to other saudi mosques. Listen to their words. It comes from islam - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=
it is sited above too.

SO THE ISSUE BECOMES WHY WILL YOU NOT REJECT THESE WORDS OF HATE? WHY WILL ISLAMICS LIKE YOU REFUSE TO SAY IN PUBLIC THAT THEY REJECT THE WORDS OF HATE IN THE KORAN. NOT THE ENTIRE KORAN BUT THOSE DEALING WITH THE FOLLOWING:

The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

IS IT SO HARD TO REJECT SUCH DEMANDED CONDUCT? YOU TALK ALL AROUND IT, YOU BLAME OTHERS, BUT STILL YOU DEMAND THE RIGHT TO DO THOSE VILE THINGS NOTED ABOVE.

The truth is - islam is as vile and base as ever and it appears that there is no such thing as a "reasonable" islamic that finds those things so objectionable that they will publically reject them. Heck, you even demand that those not islamic accept them. You riot when people say it is evil to convert by force - millions of you did so just last year. You demand that you prohibition about pictures of moho be stopped and millions marched to prove you demanded that non islamics follow your religion on that. But you have no problems insulting every religion on the face of the earth. You even killed a movie maker who told the truth about islam and women. How would you like it if jews killed islamics if you did not follow the passover. Or that you could not eat meat on fridays during lent? Or maybe the wicca's have something they find offensive and want you to do it?

the fact is you have one goal - to force islam on everyone.

From Holy War to Holy Peace

by/ Mohamed El-Moctar El-Shinqiti

Peace is holy, war is not. Nevertheless, holy war is today a main theme in the Western media. Wrongly seen by Westerners as an Islamic innovation, for Muslims it is a bitter reminder of the Crusades of the 12th and 13th centuries. But the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) have more to say about holy peace than holy war, and this is what we need to better explore in our religious and political discourse.

Annihilation at the Order of God

The roots of holy war are to be found in the Torah (which constitutes the first five books of the Hebrew Bible or Christian Old Testament) where the Israelites' experience after their Exodus from Egypt was presented in a bloody sacredness. Though the term holy war is not used in the Old Testament, other close terms were used such as "the battles of the Lord" (1 Samuel 25:28) and "the wars of the Lord" (Numbers 21:14 ).

Thousands of innocent people, including women and children, were indiscriminately slaughtered in order to prepare the ground for the Israelites' entry into the Holy Land . These Israelite wars of extermination were not in any sense justifiable self-defense, but an offensive war at the order of God — a God Who is presented in the Torah as a warrior: "The Lord is a warrior" (Exodus 15:3); and a soldier fighting on behalf of Israel: "The Lord will fight for you" (Exodus 14:14).

The idea of God supporting His people in the battlefield is not strange in any of the three Abrahamic faiths, nor is territorial expansion novel in the history of Christianity or Islam. What makes the Hebrew experience scripturally distinctive in this context is the legitimization of the indiscriminate extermination of a whole population through slaying every human soul in the defeated towns. The Jews believed they were given a divine order to kill every human being who became an obstacle in their way: "in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you" (Deuteronomy 20:16 –17).

The warrior-God of the Torah warned the Israelites against showing any mercy or pity: "When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations … then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy" (Deuteronomy 7:1–2). This "divine" order was followed to the letter: "At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors" (Deuteronomy 2:34 ).

Illustrating the texts of the Torah, British scholar Karen Armstrong concluded that "in a Jewish holy war, there was no question of coexistence, mutual respect, or peace treaties. … When the Jews had to establish themselves in the Promised Land, ordinary morality ceased to apply" (8).

From Just War to Holy War

The idea of holy war was not conceivable in Christianity for almost a thousand years because Jesus was pacifist. But the destruction of the Roman Empire pushed Saint Augustine and other Christian theologians to look for scriptural justification for waging war. They developed a concept of just war strikingly similar to that of Islam.

Only a few verses in the New Testament would help a warmonger, such as these verses that make Jesus (peace be upon him) say "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34); "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" (Luke 12:49); "Do not think I came to bring peace on earth; No, I tell you, but division" (Luke 12:51); "those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me" (Luke 19:27).
Some non-Christians took these verses as evidence of moral deficiency or logical inconsistency of the message of Jesus (peace be upon him), but most Christian theologians interpreted these texts metaphorically or understood them as an apocalyptic prediction, not a moral approval of violence. The "sword" and the "fire" in these verses were interpreted as the powerful word of Jesus and his spiritual light. The whole context of the words and deeds of Jesus (peace be upon him) supports such peaceful interpretations of the war language of the Gospels, though Jesus in his Second Coming will be far from pacifist — at least if we take seriously what some American evangelicals are saying about him today.

The criteria that make a war just in Christian classical theology include just cause, right intention, proportionality, probability of success, and immunity of non-combatants. These are very important principles from the moral and practical perspectives. But Christians did not give much attention to these principles during their Crusades against the Islamic world and the Byzantine Empire in the 12th and 13th centuries, and during their expansion throughout the New World and beyond. The guide to the Western wars since the 12th century is the extermination of Joshua and David, not the theology of Saint Augustine or Thomas Aquinas.

The Gospel of Jesus was not helpful to justify the new wars of extermination, but Christians found what they needed in the Old Testament (which constitutes about 75% of the Christian holy book). The initiators of the Crusades, such as Pope Urban II and Pope Innocent III, used the Old Testament more than the New Testament Gospels as a reference to justify their call for crusading — a call that led to two centuries of atrocities against Muslims of Palestine; brought suffering to Jews, Syrian Christians, and Byzantines; and devastated the Cathars of southern France who were seen as heretics. Needless to say that the barbarity of these 12th- and 13th-century Crusades left a deep wound that has ever since poisoned relations between the Islamic world and the West.

Sometimes Just but Never Holy

The theology of holy war has no place in Islam, and terms like holy war and war of God do not appear in any Qur'anic verses nor in any Prophetic hadith. But the concept of just war was a part of Islamic teaching since its inception. In Islam, God's grace is not to be separated from His justice, and the right of self-defense is a self-evident right. Therefore, war in Islam is a means to establish justice, but never a holy act.

Armstrong sees Islam as a middle way between the pacifism of Jesus and the annihilation of Joshua. Rejecting a common misconception in the West, Armstrong affirms that "Islam does not justify a total aggressive war of extermination, as the Torah does in the first five books of the Bible. A more realistic religion than Christianity, Islam recognizes that war is inevitable and sometimes a positive duty" (36). The Qur'an speaks of three grounds when it comes justification of war:

First , fighting in self-defense. [ To those against whom war is made, permission is given to fight, because they are wronged; and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid; those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right, for no cause except that they say "our Lord is Allah" ] (Al-Hajj 22:39–40).
Second , defending people who cannot defend themselves from oppression and tyranny. [ How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from Thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender! ] (An-Nisaa' 4:75).

Third , safeguarding religious freedom by protecting houses of worship, regardless of the faith of the worshipers. [ Had not Allah checked one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure ] (Al-Hajj 22:40).

The Qur'an explicitly forbids the expansive use of the right of self-defense to initiate war: [ Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors ] (Al-Baqarah 2:190). And Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) established war ethics that strictly preserved non-combatants from the perils of war: "Do not be treacherous. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children…" (Muslim) Abu Bakr, his first successor in the leadership of the Muslim Ummah, ordered his army thus: "Do not betray or be treacherous. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the children, the aged, or the women. Do not cut palm trees or fruitful trees. Do not slay a sheep, a cow, or a camel except for your food. And you will come across people who confined themselves to worship in monasteries; leave them alone to what they devoted themselves for." (At-Tabari, volume 3, p. 213)

Playing the Empire Game

Someone might ask, if Islam is against aggressive wars, then why was there this long history of Islamic conquests that led to the establishment of an empire stretching from the borders of China to the heart of Spain ? The answer is that in a world divided between empires, wars of expansion were not illegitimate. Empires did not have legally defined borders, nor did they have internationally agreed-upon norms of coexistence and diplomatic relations. What was and remains illegitimate is to annihilate the population or to convert them by force.

Islamic scripture did not ask Muslims to invade other people's lands, but Muslims played the empire game like anybody else when that game was the only available means of survival. No Muslim believes today that imperial expansion and colonization is justifiable because we are no longer living in a world of empires. The international system of today's world, though ineffective and manipulated by the powerful, is morally and legally binding because without it, mankind would go back to the bloody logic of the empires.

Muslims subjugated many nations to the authority of their empire in the past, but they never coerced the people to convert to Islam, despite the fact that Islam is a proselytizing religion. The reason for this religious tolerance is unequivocal Qur'anic verses: [ Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from falsehood ] (Al-Baqarah 2:256); [ Say (O Muhammad): This is the truth from the Lord of you all. Then whoever wishes let him believe, and whoever wishes let him disbelieve ] (Al-Kahf 18:29 ). Moreover, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is told in the Qur'an that his mission is to teach and preach, not to impose or compel: [ Remind them, for you are only a reminder. You are not a coercer over them] (Al-Ghashiyah 88:21–22); [You are not one to overawe them by force. So admonish with the Qur'an those who fear My Warning! ] (Qaf 50:45).
In terms of war ethics, and within the traditions of the empires, history puts Muslims on the highest level of nobility and humane treatment of the defeated. In his book La Civilisation Arabe , the French historian and sociologist Gustav Le Bon affirmed that the world had never known a conqueror more merciful than Muslims.

From Holy War to Holy Peace

Though the three monotheistic faiths found one way or another to justify war for self-defense, they have much more to say about holy peace than about holy war, and the sanctity of the human life is the core of the teachings of all of these three faiths. Despite the problematic texts of the Torah we quoted before, a fair student of religion cannot ignore the fact that the oldest text on the sacredness of human life in the Abrahamic legacy is a text from the Torah, the fifth commandment that unambiguously warned "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13 ). Peace is presented in the Hebrew scripture as a great bounty from God, though it is not a universal peace for all, but an exclusive peace for Israel : "But those who turn to crooked ways the LORD will banish with the evildoers. Peace be upon Israel (Psalm 125:5); "And may you live to see your children's children. Peace be upon Israel " (Psalm 128:6).

In his famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus emphasizes the virtues of peace saying "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9) and telling his followers "Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Mathew 5:39 ). God is repeatedly presented in the New Testament as "the God of peace" (Romans 15:33 and 16:33 ; Hebrews 13:20 ; Philippians 4:9), "the God of love and peace" (2 Corinthians 13:11 ) and the "Lord of peace" (2 Thessalonians 3:16 ). The New Testament unequivocally urges Christians to "be at peace with each other" (Mark 9:50 ) and to live in peace with other human beings: "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone" (Romans 12:18 ).

One of the beautiful names of God in Islam is "the Peace" (Al-Hashr 59:23) and His path is described as "the path of peace" (Al-Ma'idah 5:16 ). Muslims are invited in the Qur'an to "enter into peace" and to avoid war, which is depicted as a Satanic endeavor: [ O ye who believe! Enter into peace whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of Satan; for he is to you an avowed enemy ] (Al-Baqarah 2:208).

Muslims are forbidden from waging war except for the aforementioned reasons: [ If they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no excuse to fight them ] (An-Nisaa' 4:90). Muslims also have no option but to accept peace whenever the door to it is open, even when their enemy is not honest in his peaceful inclination: [ If the enemies incline towards peace, you must also incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One who hears and knows all things. Should they intend to deceive you, then surely Allah is sufficient for you ] (Al-anfal 8:61–62).

Foundations of Holy Peace

The way to holy peace is always open, and the three monotheistic faiths provide solid foundations for it. But holy peace requires a commitment to justice, honesty, and wisdom. It also requires a better interpretation of religious texts, by reading these texts within the context of God's grace, mercy, and benevolence.

Justice is the foundation of holy peace. The Qur'an teaches that establishing justice is the goal of all messages and messengers of God: [ We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance of Right and Wrong that humans may stand forth in justice ] (Al-Hadid 57:25). Oppressors are always asking for "peace" and seeking "stability," but what they want is submission to their wrongdoings, the "peace of the graveyard" as one European philosopher rightly called it.
Honesty is another foundation of holy peace. Honesty means avoiding self-righteousness and self-justification. I was profoundly moved by the graphic description of the Holocaust atrocities in the Night of the great American Jewish novelist and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel, and how he and his father passed through a terrifying process that degrades human life and dignity. But I was not impressed by the tone of self-righteousness and self-justification in Wiesel's Dawn , namely when he says "The commandment thou shalt not kill was given from the summit of one of the mountains here in Palestine , and we were the only ones to obey it. But that all over … in the days and weeks and months to come, you will have only one purpose: to kill those who have made us killers" (144).

Every Jew, Christian, and Muslim can claim some true and imagined virtues of the past for his or her people. However, building a holy peace for the future needs everyone to avoid using the past atrocities as a moral justification for the present aggression, occupation, and oppression. Moreover, the Palestinians of today are evidently not responsible for the wrongdoings of the Germans of yesterday.

Wisdom is the third foundation of holy peace. The definition of wisdom in the Arabic language is "putting everything in the right place." Wisdom is a combination of morality and practicality. Some chronic conflicts between individuals and nations are difficult to solve on the basis of justice only. Justice is sometimes too late or too costly. But these conflicts can be solved through wisdom. The goal of conflict resolution based on wisdom is to save the future, not to avenge the past. Since wisdom is a moral process, not a legal one, some level of compassion and forgiveness is necessary to reach a wise solution.

A sound interpretation of the holy texts is another challenge to the holy peace. Religion is a complex phenomenon and can be used as a practical guide for peacemaking and an effective tool for inciting war as well. The intensity of religious texts, and the ease of interpreting them in very different — even contradictory — ways, adds to the complexity of this issue. Because I read the Qur'an differently from some other Muslims, I understand why the pacifist Neturei Karta interprets the Torah differently from the belligerent Yesha Rabbinical Council, and why the pacifist Quakers read the Gospel differently from the apocalyptic Southern Baptists.

Holy peace is the way to discover our common humanity. But it requires a high level of intellectual courage, moral honesty, and a strong desire for forgiveness and reconciliation. A good place to start is to appreciate what the Other has and be honest about one's shortcomings and wrongdoings. No doubt that "it is distressing to examine the sins of one's own culture" (Armstrong xvi), but this painful self-examination is our only way to holy peace in today's world of violence and mistrust.

Works Cited

• Armstrong, Karen. Holy War: The Crusades and Their Impact on Today's World . Anchor, 2001.

Wiesel, Elie. The Night Trilogy . Hill & Wang, 198

Mr. Frank collins, this is for you to read, in case you are not familiar with the Bible. If you are a Jew or a Christain, I think you have enough work to do with your own sacred texts before you write about Qur'anic texts. If you are against the three faiths, then you should treat Islam equally with the two others.
Ahmad Al-Jandali

* "in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you" (Deuteronomy 20:16 –17)
* "When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations … then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy" (Deuteronomy 7:1–2).
* "At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors" (Deuteronomy 2:34)
* "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34)
* "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" (Luke 12:49)
* "Do not think I came to bring peace on earth; No, I tell you, but division" (Luke 12:51)
* "those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me" (Luke 19:27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search= from the mouth of islam in the west.

Unfortunately you could compile a dossier on almost any large religious community that would be as damning as what you've listed here. I am Catholic, and there are participants on this site who can tell you everything that is wrong, evil and violent about my religion. Even Buddhism, which we in the west think of as a peace-loving and broad-minded tradition, has had periods and regions of extreme abuse of authority, for instance in the 1990s in Thailand. It usually comes down to earthly power and politics.
Islam has the misfortune of being intertwined with politics in many minds, especially where it is the majority faith, and Mohamed was on his own word more interested in politics than was Jesus of Nazareth. Abraham, Moses and David were political, too, but thank goodness I don't feel required to decimate whole communities as was ordered in many parts of the Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament, which to me is part of God's word. As a woman, I don't feel constrained to remain silent in the presence of men, either, as Paul ordered in his letters.
But there are others who are more well-versed than I who can have that chat with you.
I want to do you the courtesy of taking your suggestions seriously, but your argument is one that appears on this site -- in various similar lists -- any time a moderate Muslim tries to talk about anything.
What worries me about the attacks on the moderate members of the Muslim faith is that it trivializes the moderates and progressives, and strengthens the fundamentalists in their efforts to frame their religion in the most violent terms possible. PBS just got through showing a series "Secrets of the Inquisition" that dramatized what happened to the Catholic church when the most violent and openly political factions were allowed to make all the decisions. My church will never recover.

well viejeta - you did not say you were not islamic but even if you did or you are - the truth is the same - you find hate in my words even though they are the words of koran. think about it.
and i dont attack islam - i tell the truth about it. i do not hide my head in the sand and pretend islam is really a peaceful religion. its not. it wants to control the entire world and intends to use force to do so.
maybe you think those cute attacks in the spanish subways was done by raindeer, or one armed eskimo lesbians. me, i think they were done by islamics.
and why is islam currently at war in every part of the world. as im supposed to ignore that too?
here is what an islamic prefessor wrote:
We know that for the first time in history, due to a unique geopolitical conjunction of factors, Islam is in confrontation with all of the major world religions: Judaism in the Middle East, Christianity in the Balkans, Chechnya, Nigeria, Sudan, the Philippines and Indonesia; Hinduism in South Asia, and, Buddhism—after the Taliban blew up their statues—in Bamiyan. And, Islam is on a collision course in the western province of China, where culture represents an amalgam of the philosophy of Confucius, Tao, and Communist ideology.
It is this historic conjunction that both singles out Islam and creates the global argument that the 21st century will be a time of war between Islam and the other world civilizations. Of course, this neat concept is challenged because so many Muslim countries are clearly allied to non-Muslim ones. Besides, so many Muslims now live in non-Muslim nations. But it is true to say that the major world civilizations are experiencing problems in accommodating or even understanding Islam, both within their borders and outside them.
If we are to prevent the world from lurching toward one crisis after another, one flashpoint to another, then we all need to radically rethink the relationship between our religion and other religions; a radical reassessment of one another. The West must send serious signals to the ordinary Muslim people - via the media, through seminars, conferences, meetings - that it does not consider Islam to be the enemy, however much it may disagree with certain aspects of Muslim behavior.
http://www.akbarahmed.org/id67.html

notice how he wants the world to tell islam its not their fault. how much we love and respect them and that we will never attack them. sort of like throwing raw meat to a hungry lion. let them know you will not fight back and to eat their fill.

but i have been talking about the west - how about the peace of islam in the east? here is islam and india.

so when i say islam wants war and it is evil am i making up 1400 years of bitter attacks on people not islamic - is it all made up by little ole me?

here is a outline of the love and peace showered on india by their peace loving islamic brothers. a good number of these accounts have come from the writings of ISLAMIC writers extoling the victory [?] over the lowly hindus:

the Islamic invasion actually attempted to decimate the Indian religions of Dharma and the Culture of Bhaaratvarsha, but they did not succeed.

(From the accounts of arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi the secretary of Mahmud of Gaznavi) talking about killing indians and battles.
At Thaneshwar.
"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."
At Somnath
"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire.... The number of infidels killed exceeded 50,000"
At Mathura
"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."
Mahmud of Ghori
(from Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir) Kol (Modern Aligarh)
"Those of the horizon who were wise and acute were converted to Islam, but those who stood by their ancestoral faith were slain with the sword"
Kol (Modern Aligarh) 20,000 prisoners were taken and made slaves
'Three bastions were raised as high as heaven with their heads and their carcases became food for the beasts of prey
Kalinjar - 50,000 prisoners were taken as slaves
Varnasi or Kasi (Benaras) : Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir records,
"The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children,(who were taken into slavery) and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."
Sultan Firuz Shah Tughlaq
(from Insha-i-Mahry by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru)
Delhi: -a punishment in detail (from Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi)
"A report was brought to the Sultan than there was in Delhi an old Brahman who persisted in publicly performing the worship of idols in his house and that people of the city, both Muslims and Hindus used to resort to his house to worship the idol. The Brahman had constructed a wooden tablet which was covered within and without with paintings of demons and other objects. An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before Sultan.The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. but he refused to accept it. A pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top. The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry and then fire completley enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude."
Delhi : (after Hindus paid the toleration tax (zar-i zimmiya) and poll-tax(jizya) they were foolish enough to build their temples.so...) "Under divine guidance I (Sultan) destroyed these temples and I killed the leaders of these infedility and others I subjected to stripes and chastisement "
Gohana (Haryana):
"Some Hindus had erected a new idol-temple in the village of Kohana and the idolaters used to assemble there and perform their idolatrous rites. These people were seized and brought before me. I ordered that the perverse conduct of these leaders of this wickedness be punished by publicly abd that they should be put to deathe before the gate of the palace."
Jajnagar:(Expedition objectives as stated by Sultan: Source:Ainn-ul-Mulk)
massacring the unbelievers, demolishing their temples, hunting the elephants, getting a glimpse of their enchanting country
I LOVE WHERE IN THE MIDST OF MURDER HE ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT THE ENCHANTING COUNTRY - sort of nazi like isn't it.
Orissa:'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' records his expedition with the following words:
"Nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations The swordsmen of Islam turned the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers. Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier."
The Jihads of Shihabuddin,
the Sultankalka of Ghur

Around 1140, the Islamized Turko-Mongol chiefs of the Shansabanid tribe occupied Ghor in Afghanistan. Initially it was a vassal of the Ghaznavid Sultans, but around 1130 it came into conflict with them, after one of the leading Shansabanid nobles was murdered by the Ghaznavid Sultan, Bahram. A ferocious war ensued between the Sultans of Ghor and Ghazni, till Alla-ud-din Ghori invaded Ghazni with his entire cavalry and wrested it from Bahram. Alla-ud-din sacked the Indian spoils that Mahmud had placed there, massacred the city’s population in a 7-day killing spree and subsequently burnt it down. The next Ghaznavid Sultan, Khushro Maliq was driven out of Afghanistan by a coalition of Oghuz Turks and the Ghorids in 1157, and the Oghuz took Ghazni. The sons of Alla-ud-din, Ghiyas-ud-din Mu’azz-ud-din Ghori and Shihab-ud-din Muhammad Ghori defeated the Oghuz and annexed Ghazni in 1174. Ghiyas-ud-din, crowned himself Sultan, and appointed his brother Sultankalka. Shihab-ud-din was assigned the task of extending the kingdom to the East and he naturally gravitated towards India. 13 bloody campaigns that ravaged Northern India followed:

• Early in 1175 he invaded Punjab and sacked and burned Uch...(1)

• In 1178 he advanced south and marched towards Gujarat, but here the Indians acted quickly and rallying under the western chAlukya king MUlarAja II routed the Islamic forces completely forcing him to retreat...(2)

• In 1179 Ghori sent a message to PrithivirAja chAhamAna to make common cause with him against the Chalukyas. Prithivaraj however, wise disregarding his foolish minister, kadambavAsa’s advise to make a common cause with Ghori, preemptively attacked NaDDula and reconquered it from the Moslems.

• Shihab recovered in 1180 and invaded Sindh and ravaged the population carrying away much loot...(3)

• Then Shihabuddin Muhammad, quickly followed it up in 1181 and 1184 with two invasions of Lavapura (Lahore) accompanied with much slaughter...(4+5)

• In 1186 he invaded the Ghaznavid occupied Punjab and defeated the Sultan Khushro Maliq and wrested Punjab...(6)

• 1188 The Ghur Sultankalka invaded the ChAhamAna kingdom and sacked the fort of Tabarhindah killing the Hindu male populace and raping the women. Hindu refugees flocked around Delhi alarming the ChAhamAnas...(7)

• 1191 PrithivirAj advanced to meet Shihabuddin’s raid and routed him in the great battle of Tarai. While the Muslims suffered a crushing defeat, the Indians failed to butcher them to man and allowed Shihab to get away unharmed. He fled back to Central Asia leaving Punjab completely undefended...(8)

• 1191 PrithivirAj attacked Tabarhindah and took it back from the Muslims. Here the biggest mistake of the Hindus was not to reconquer and arm Punjab suitably.

• 1192 Shihab returned and sacked Tabarhindah again. This was followed by the second battle of Tarai, the ChAhamAna army was crushed and Prithiviraj was captured and brutally tortured to death...(9)

• 1192 the Ghur Sultankalka made a second trust towards Ajayamerupura (Ajmer) and sacked it smashing Hindu temples and a Hindu university in course of this invasion. The Hindus captured in this expedition caused slave prices to fall to a few Dirhams in the Muslim markets...(10)

• 1193 The sultankalka invaded Kannauj and slew the GAhadwala king Jayachandra. He followed this up with an invasion of vArANsipura slaughtering Hindus with great savagery and desecrating the holy city...(11+12)

After this, his viceroy Kutub-ud-din (also his lover?) and the Turkish adventurer Ikhtiyaruddin Khalji furthered the violence of Islam in the land of Hind. Meanwhile Shihab’s brother died in Ghazna and he crowned himself Sultan and immediately launched himself into another Jihad on the infidels of Hindustan in 1206. The exact course of this campaign is not clear. While on the North-western reaches of the Sindhu, he was ambushed by the Khokar chiefs and shot down by an arrow...(13). Thus ended the carrier of the Moslem brigand who brought misery to the whole of northern India through his 13 invasions.

Aurangazeb (1658 - 1707 )
Aurangzeb considered himself "The Scourge Of The Kafirs" (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries. In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.

From: Maasi-i-Alamgiri

Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan. Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh's two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was also awarded money

Zahiru'd-Din Muhammed Babur (1526 - 1520 )
Babur's Own Words on Killing Hindus:
For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,
I battled infidels and Hindus,
I determined to become a maryr
Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!

From Baburnama, the Memoires of Babur Himself:
In AH 934 (1538 ) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had be Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslim) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (muslim nation).

Guru Nanak on Babur's atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded them in his poems. He says: Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)

On the condition of Hindu women in Babur's monster rule:
Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)

On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:
First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)

From an article by Dr. Harsh Narain on Muslim Testimony (Indian Express 2/26/90):
Since the establishment of Zahiru'd-Din Ghazi's rule, officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously desteroying the Hindu faith. We cleared the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.

Jahangir (1605 - 1628)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar's orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.

Jahangir's torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.

Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift of name)

The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to the Emperor, "Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny)." The Guru accepted death by torture.

Shah Jahan (1658 - 1707)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being "blown up with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire". Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.

Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too were forced to become Muslims.

Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori

When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.

Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique

Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should be sold to Muslim lords.

i wrote this in response to someone else but it fits here.
and what appears to be so wrong in quoting the koran? im called angry and evil for quoting it. so what does that make the person who said it was the word of god? or that god for that matter?
what appears to be wrong with asking islamics who say they want peace to reject passages so evil that they could have been written by hitler or stalin. i would never be part of a religion that REQUIRED people to hate, kidnapp, ransom, torture, cut off body parts, rape, murder and force conversions, as part of the holy writing of that religion. sounds more like the devil than any god i would ever pray to. how about you? does your god demand that of you?
and its not that it is demanded but that it is done, every day, by its followers. what kind of religion is that?
people think im pushing a particular religion, im not. i dont care what you believe. every religion believe that they are the true path [someone said janists dont but i have no actual knowledge about that] and i can see that. no problem. im more than a little concerned about the hate part, but if your religion wants hate - well there is nothing anyone can do about that.
its the other parts what concern their conduct in the temporal world that bother me. its the kidnapp, ransom, torture, cut off body parts, rape, murder and force conversions, that i object to. and that is what islam is doing, has done and will continue to do, unless it makes so major changes.
yes there have been those who said they were christians that were vile and evil. hitler was a catholic alter boy. he was pure evil and notice that the christain world attack and destroyed him and those that supported him. what did the islamic world do with hilter? they embraced him. after all he was killing jews and did not appear to be much of a christian as far as they were concerned. http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/ is a link with photographs of islamic leaders and the nazi's. hitler was so inspired by their hate of jews that the largest ss division outside of germany was in bosnia. remember them - we fought for them a few years ago and were going to be home by christmas - 1997.
so the problem is not their belief - its their conduct, which ahs not changed in 1400 years.
i know - what about the crusades you will ask? here is why they started. dont you think that 400 years of being attacked might call for a strong response? The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
and you will say what about the spanish inquisition? well it was not part of the bible now commanded by the god of abraham or jesus. but here are some facts you can look up. the church had the order of the holy inquisition. it was charged with finding out about heresy. what people forget is that it was not controlled by the church. the members were appointed by the kings of the various countries and the pope rubber stamped it. in spain the king needed money and lands so he used it to obtain them and what he did was evil, vile and base. it will be condemned by all good christains everywhere and for all times. in acting like he did he violated every christian doctrine, and became the instrument of the devil. but strangly enough, if he had been islamic he would have been a hero becasue everything done in spain is part of what is ordered by the god of islam to be done. what does that say about islam and its relationship to the other people in the world?
and let me talk about the god, as other religions look at it. i make no determination for anyone. but look at the god of the old testament. the god of abraham and isac, of moses of david of solomon. a god that spent about 2500 years protecting the jews, calling them his people, at least according to the jews. this god even said he would bring a messiah to them, a jew. well here comes jesus. he was a jew, of that there is no doubt. his mother was a jew as was his grandmother - which means hitler would have killed him. there is a dispute about who his father is, but work with me here. the god of jesus was the same god of abraham. jesus never said to hurt the jews for not believing in his as his kingdom was not of this world. and when asked what the most important command was - remember there are about 260 - or so - jesus said love your lord your god with all your heart. but then he added that there was another that was almost as important - to love your neighbor as yourself. wow - pretty heavey for back then.
ythen 600 years later we get moho. he says he is the decendent of abraham through his sex with hagar - and their son ishmael. now this happened about 2500 bc - so the story would be 3,000 years old by then. and the funny thing is - there is not one bit of evidence that he was correct. NOTHING. no tribe with a verbal history going back in time. no writings - nothing at all. and now moho is told by his god - that he is the god of abraham and jesus - people who are already following that same god - but now moho must tell people that god wants all jews and christians not only hated, but kidnapp, ransom, torture, cut off body parts, rape, murder and force conversions into belief in a god they already believe in. does that make any since to you?
does it make since that the messenger of the god of islam picks someone who, after being picked, thinks that at 40 he should have sex with a 9 year old child? is that the same god of the old and new testaments?
does it make since that the all knowing god of islam thinks the trinity is the father, son and mary, when the rest of the christian would thought it to be father, son and holy spirit? how did the all knowing god of moho get that one wrong?
but the fact that islam is internally inconsistent makes me no mind, its their relationship with the rest of the world.
and even though there are those islamics who smile and tell you they want world peace - they forget to tell you that they consider peace to only consist of a world ruled by islam and the koran and there can never be peace until that happens.
so do i say i am sorry for quoting the koran and asking islamics if they believe in those verses? not one bit.

To what "islamic " do you refer, Frank? Dr. Nyang hasn't changed the subject, although your comments had nothing to do with his column.
Does my name sound Islamic to you? I am flattered. It is a Spanish word meaning "little old woman" -- although I'm not so little and the old part depends on your perspective.
The nickname came from some of my students, and was originally a play on "wicked witch of the west." I felt "Brujita maldita" might be offensive to members of some faiths.
Tune me out if you wish, but your views might be more persuasive if unaccompanied by card-stacking, rambling accusations and ad hominem attacks. I guess it depends on whether you seek to convince others, or merely to give vent to your feelings. You vent quite skillfully.

so another islamic changes the subject.
why is it hateful to quote the koran?
why, if you find those verses hateful dont you reject them?

I apologize for my co-religionist, Frank Collins. We can all pray that Christ lifts him off of this hateful hobby horse he is riding.

well then lets here you publically reject the following parts of the koran where hate, rape, murder, and forced conversions are demanded of islamics. come on - give peace a chance - lets hear it. and not just here - put publically.
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and pratice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

Hopeful might be a better expression than content or satisfied. We can be pleased with what we've accomplished, without feeling that we are finished.