We all must speak out to counter anti-Muslim prejudice

And, not to put too fine a point on it, Akafir:

""These well-meaning, badly misguided folks don’t realize that practicing Islam requires subverting and destroying any and all non-Islamic beliefs and practices.""

What you may be well-meaning and misguided about is that Pagans are not fools about this. Pretty much all of us are well-familiar with all these kinds of manipulation.

Starhawk is a committed pacifist: while she very much represents the Pagan 'center' on many interfaith points, and issues like these, most of us are *not* pacifists. Or scared of 'conversion by the sword.' We got swords, too, and as much as I find myself revolted by violence, these days, I happen to be very good with one.

The means of peace are more important. Don't mistake that for fear.

Fear always loses.

Every minute you spend thinking there aren't a million dudes with shotguns out there if like Pakistan 'invaded' or in thinking the only way to 'counter Islam' is to indoctrinate something equally-bad, is both a greater threat to our American way, and distracting you from thinking about the food supply and industrial base any 'mighty war' you may want would depend on.

Extremists didn't do 9/11 to 'defeat' us, sport, they did it to *pick a fight.*

And some spent a lot of time trying to make it one. Dubya, for instance. We pretty much lost New Orleans, not cause of Muslim ideology, but *because we stopped thinking.*

If you think your soul's about a book, bring an itty-bitty-book light to the grave.

If you think America's about doing *better,* shut up with the fear.

Kicking any given butt was never something we found hard. So breathe a minute.

""Could you not please tell me where have I "insisted that anyone who disagrees with *you* must be 'ignorant' or biased."? I really would like to see what you consider insisting that those who disagree with me must be ignorant or biased?

Posted by: AKafir""

It's what I quoted the first time.

That you turned around and attacked for again.

As for 'how many blocks away from Ground Zero,' that apparently depends on how much of that very large area you *count.*

Have you ever walked the perimiter of the WTC towers? I did, long before the attack. It was never a small place.

I would consider it inappropriate to put a 'mosque' within *sight* of the site. But, past that: How many blocks away from where is considered a 'decent interval?' well, that's someone's choice.

I suggest we choose to see what these Sufis can offer.

Some seem to claim we're falling all over ourselves to say Islam is spiffy as an ideology, before or after fearmongering.

Not really.

I say, if we're the 'land of the free and the home of the brave,' it's time to show a little more of both. Not quibble over how long a city block is.

And, btw, Akafir:

""As Americans we need to defend our freedoms. We do need to keep the state and religion apart, to be able to speak and think freely and the freedom to choose our beliefs freely as free individuals. This we are going to be able to do if we have the right to criticise and examine any and all religious beliefs. ""

Yes, *exactly.* That's actually precisely why I don't want to see this Islamic center run out of town, by blind intolerance.

The thing about these freedoms is we must *use* them.

*That* makes them stronger, not cowering in fear of someone else's take on a holy book.

We're Pagans.

People like that already have taken all they could take from us by the sorts of means you fear.

All you can do is hurt us. You can't take our Gods or souls. I for one know that for a *fact.*

On to 'good governance.' We don't give up our American freedoms cause someone thinks we should be *scared.*

I know 'scared.'

Ain't scared *enough* to think what some want me to think, either Christian or Muslim.

We want our America. For all.

""Nice to know that you don't hate Christians. When was the last time a christian beheaded a few pagans?""

Not as long ago as you might think. Some still want to use fear of Islam to take the West *back* there, actually. Beheading, per se, of course, was usually reserved for nobles. It was considered a privilege of rank, till Mme Guillotine came along.

They'd use other means for the likes of us. Hanging, (lynching) mostly. Sometimes burning.

""I missed that news. You don't seem to get a simple fact that even others have been trying to get through to you: Please don't conflate calling Islam and its Quran a barbaric book with hating Muslims. Majority of my family are muslims and I certainly don't hate them, but I do find Islam as it is unfit for the modern world, the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, to be a very nasty and violent warlord of the 7th century Arabia.""

I find the same of Catholicism. Frankly, I have every reason to be angry at Catholics and Christians, *very personally,* as well as knowing the history.

But what do you propose we *do?* Give them the 'war' they want? Do you think either you or I could or should 'abolish' *either* Christianity or Islam?

That's how *they* think.

As Pagans, it doesn't even make *sense* to us.

We're not a religion of sheep or automatons or fanatics. That's why aggressive monotheists 'won,' and why they find what they 'won' is nothing.

Monotheists seem to think that if only they can 'convert' everyone, make them obey or go away, everything'll be just great.

We're not so foolish. When monotheists aren't proclaiming their greatness, they 're proclaiming their complaints and helplessness.

One thing our experience has taught us over a long time of oppression at various hands is, jealous Gods take, but their center cannot hold.

I am pleased to be called by a very patient Goddess. She didn't force *me,* and I ain't going to force *you.*

She's got all the time in the world, and the world's what we're worried about.

It'd serve nothing to have people 'convert' and stick the name of *our* Gods on this same old nonsense that's nothing but trouble.

Yes, no illusions about what people do, have done, and claim. But I think what monotheists are scared of most is that this *isn't* a war. And if war comes, we got Gods for that, too.

Unfortunately, as a species, we're out of time to screw around with that illusion of 'war' or 'convert the world.' Fights happen, but when they do is no time to get indignant.

We want America. And frankly, for us that means happy monotheist neighbors. Not either of you for masters.

You talk to us like we *care* what some God of yours thinks is *worse.*

We don't care about 'worse.' We care about *better.*

Oh, BTW... nice job on doing Al Qaeda's work for them, guys...

Taliban officials know it’s sacrilegious to hope a mosque will not be built, but that’s exactly what they’re wishing for: the success of the fiery campaign to block the proposed Islamic cultural center and prayer room near the site of the Twin Towers in lower Manhattan. “By preventing this mosque from being built, America is doing us a big favor,” Taliban operative Zabihullah tells NEWSWEEK. (Like many Afghans, he uses a single name.) “It’s providing us with more recruits, donations, and popular support.”

"Nice to know that you don't hate Christians. When was the last time a christian beheaded a few pagans? I missed that news."

Oh, come on. The only people who are fretting about Sharia being imposed on America are the Right-Wingers, who want to impose Biblical Law on America. No, Christians don't behead Pagans anymore. At least not in America. But there are plenty that would like to re-create the Salem Witch Trials if given half a chance.

Frankly, I'll stick with them Fundamentalist Muslims. At least if they're going to behead me, they're going to do it to my face. Fundamentalist Christians will just smile, say "love the sinner, hate the sin," and stab you in the back.

There are as many sects in Islam as there are in Christianity. Imam Rauf is a Sufi. They're non-violent. In fact, they're often the targets of other Moslem groups (can you say "Quakers" boys and girls?). I would imagine that other Moslems are against this Mosque because they know that it's going to draw every hater from around the country now. I don't blame them for being afraid. We've already had a mosque in Tennessee firebombed, and an innocent cab driver attacked. Where does it end?

Starhawk,

Take a little time to read Amil Imani, an Iranian, who knows Islam.

http://www.amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=186&Itemid=2

"Even more distressing are those good-hearted simpleton non-Muslims who are up in arms defending the rights of Muslims to practice their religion in free societies such as the United States of America. These well-meaning, badly misguided folks don’t realize that practicing Islam requires subverting and destroying any and all non-Islamic beliefs and practices. All one needs to see this deadly aspect of Islam is to examine how Islam is practiced in places such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, and even the so-called more moderate Islamic states such as Egypt.

The overflowing treasuries of the oil-enriched Islamic rulers finance legions of pampered clergy with a highly vested interest in maintaining and promoting the creed. Islamist apologists and mercenaries are collaborating shamelessly with the clergy in portraying a greatly deceptive picture of what Islam is in order to win a highly coveted prize—the West."

*********************************

As Americans we need to defend our freedoms. We do need to keep the state and religion apart, to be able to speak and think freely and the freedom to choose our beliefs freely as free individuals. This we are going to be able to do if we have the right to criticise and examine any and all religious beliefs. The state has no business in this examination. US Government cannot and must not have the power to do anything about anyone's religion, but as individuals we must have the freedom to speak openly and forthrightly about any belief.

A PaganPlace:"You assumed that Starhawk must be just calling everyone a bigot, and then you *actually* insisted that anyone who disagrees with *you* must be 'ignorant' or biased."

I assumed? Starhawk charges categorically that Fox News is whipping anti-Muslim prejudice by distorting facts and those doing this are not listening to anyone speaking truthfully or rationally. She does not deign to provide a single example of such dastardly behavior. Where is the consensus that Fox News lies except amongst those of certain political persuasion? Now a bigot is defined as a person intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. Isn't what Starhawk states about Fox News calling those newscasters bigots? Or am I missing something?

Then Starhawk simply mistates that
"plans to build an Islamic community center in lower Manhattan, many blocks away from the site of the World Trade Center destruction". It is not "many" blocks away. It is one block away (as the crow flies, and one and a half by foot). Why be so loose with one's facts?

Could you not please tell me where have I "insisted that anyone who disagrees with *you* must be 'ignorant' or biased."? I really would like to see what you consider insisting that those who disagree with me must be ignorant or biased?

Athena4:

"What matters is that all of their paperwork was in order, they own the property outright, and the proper zoning boards in NYC approved it. End of story."

Nice to know that you don't hate Christians. When was the last time a christian beheaded a few pagans? I missed that news. You don't seem to get a simple fact that even others have been trying to get through to you: Please don't conflate calling Islam and its Quran a barbaric book with hating Muslims. Majority of my family are muslims and I certainly don't hate them, but I do find Islam as it is unfit for the modern world, the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, to be a very nasty and violent warlord of the 7th century Arabia. You may want to read what an old Muslim of Pakistan has to say on the topic:
http://pakistannewsblog.com/why-muslims-reject-modernity-by-khaled-ahmed/

So many people would not be talking about this issue if it was the "End of story", now would they? Of course they the right, and I do not know of anyone who denies that or desires that they should not. Free speech and political leverage are part of American way of life as well beside zoning boards etc. Unless you think that the city ruling are written in stone.

Consider that perhaps those who (including Muslims) have reservations against building the Masjid there do so because they know something about how Islamist and supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood operate. Is that why they want to know where the $100 million dollar came from? Is that why they are concerned that Imam Rauf is unable to say that Hamas is a terrorist organization although it has been declared as such by the State Department? Perhaps the ones against the Masjid know how it will be perceived and act as a recruitment tool for decades for the political Islam?

Frankly, I don't care if Moslems think that Paganism is filthy. So do a lot of Fundamentalist Christians, who throw Exodus 22:18 in our faces every chance they get. Frankly, I prefer to deal with the Moslems, who at least up front about things. I don't have to go to Saudi Arabia. I admit to being curious about the Hajj, but only from a cultural standpoint. The Kaaba used to house statues of Pagan Gods and Goddesses prior to the dawn of Islam. They co-opted it, like the Christians co-opted the sacred Pagan sites, and built churches over them.

And FYI, while I don't know any Moslems personally, my husband has worked with three or four Muslims. They were all really nice guys, except for one that had been thoroughly "Americanized". He was a pompous jerk, but it had nothing to do with being a Muslim.

Like I said before. This is America. We have freedom of religion here, and minority religions are protected from the "tyranny of the majority." Your opinion of Islam and mine don't count. What they do in other countries doesn't matter. What matters is that all of their paperwork was in order, they own the property outright, and the proper zoning boards in NYC approved it. End of story.

(Oh, and, incidentally, telling Pagans, 'Our religious intolerance is OK cause you'd get worse in Saudi Arabia!' ...isn't any more reassuring than Muslims saying to us, 'See, the Koran says we should tolerate Christians and Jews!' )

'Better than Mogadishu' is not sufficient standard.

This is America.

""The author should travel to Mogadishu, Eastern or Southern Afghanistan, or Western Pakistan and declare her paganism openly. The reaction will be swift and severe, and Starhawk will become an unwilling internet superstar. garrafa10 ""

The idea of America is not to justify our behavior by comparing ourselves with worse intolerance to justify behaving in any way like that, here.

There are Christians in America who'd treat us the same way, and in fact, on these very forums, some have tried to turn Islamphobia against *us* on some Christianist 'If you're not for us you're against us' footing.

We have every reason to be concerned at the *intolerance* from *whatever* source. Isolating and alienating the Muslim American community from the very freedoms we're most concerned about is no way to see them invested in those freedoms.

The center is in part supposed to be a moderate place for communication and education, to counter extremism, and hopefully put things on a better track here in America and the world.

I'm certainly not going to be the one insisting all Muslims live by interpretations of the Koran that say to kill or enslave me any more than I would of Christians, who have excuses enough of their own.

Maybe some Christians out there know how *we* feel about what they say now,but the way to protect a free society is not to actually close it, yourself.

From a Pagan point of view, in many ways how we could expect to be treated by either many Christians or many Muslims is... A generation or three in a free society.

That's all.

Maybe this could be that generation for Muslims, too.

Believe me that it's not lost on Pagans when so many Muslims seem to think it's sufficient to explicitly 'tolerate' Christians and Jews with passages that specifically don't apply to anyone else, but this kind of thing is part of what needs to be negotiated in a pluralistic society. Fact is, anyone can *say* they have the right to do terrible things, ...even if they just make it up on the spot.

The *point* is not wanting to. Valuing something else. And we've all got things to value more than that.

Akafir: "I have no idea which unreasonable opinions you are talking about. "

No, what I was calling you on is that Starhawk was referring to anti-Muslim hysteria being whipped up by Fox News and other organizations (some of whose whose agenda has nothing to do with reason: the rationales for this are often just excuses:)

You assumed that Starhawk must be just calling everyone a bigot, and then you *actually* insisted that anyone who disagrees with *you* must be 'ignorant' or biased.

Basically, you made an accusation that someone else wasn't living up to some standard you demonstrated not-meeting, yourself.

The point here is that the use of this to whip up *bigotry* is the problem, not that people may disagree. As I said.

For an excellent discussion of why we should not allow the mosque on Ground Zero, please click on the following link (copy and paste on a new web page); you would not want to miss it:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html

Try to find out the reason why there is a backlash against Islam. Pious platitudes about prejudice does not serve anyone. I go back to the immutable law of karma. If there is widespread anti-Muslim feelings, Muslims will find something to learn from this if they look impartially. Is there anything in our behavior that elicits such a reaction?

The author should travel to Mogadishu, Eastern or Southern Afghanistan, or Western Pakistan and declare her paganism openly. The reaction will be swift and severe, and Starhawk will become an unwilling internet superstar.

And remember, their holy book does say god hates the infidel. Their most moral being does not hate infidelity, he hates the infidel. This god hates people - unreasonable - but that's just my anti-islam bent.

I refutiate myself sartorially.

hariaum

But more seriously,

It is reasonable people who can differentiate a person, a human being from a set of ideas, an ideology. If we are clear that we oppose an ideology as islam and not a person as a muslim, we can certainly oppose a place of sustaining and promoting an ideology while not being muslim haters. It then becomes unreasonable to conflate the two and start shouting "bigot."

hariaum

It seems to me that a person who doesn't know english well enough to repudiate an opposition position should be stripped of citizenship.

howd ya'all like them thar apples.

:)

hariaum

Apaganplace: Seems to me that *you're* the one who wants to 'label 'everyone who disagrees with you.'

Starhawk states "anti-Muslim prejudice whipped up by Fox News distortions" in the first sentence. The second charges that "The people who are whipping up anti-Muslim frenzy aren't listening to him or anyone else who is speaking truthfully and rationally". What does that mean? Who hates Fox News and why? I asked is Howard Dean ( and I assume you know who he is) or Reid or Silver are giving into anti-Muslim frenzy? People who disagree with putting up the 100 Million Dollars monument/center/Masjid a block from Ground Zero are not unreasonable, bigoted, racist, etc.

I have no idea which unreasonable opinions you are talking about. No one in his/her right mind, that I know, would ever support or voice an "unreasonable" opinion. I doubt anyone ever knowingly or willingly really holds an unreasonable opinion. If one disagrees with another's opinions, one can at least attempt to state first specifically which statement of theirs is "unreasonable" and then why? Ask any Muslim, for instance, if it is unreasonable to accept Allah's command to treat Pagan's as filthy. I am certain you will not find any. I know; I used to be a Muslim.

Athena4: "I may not like how or what you worship, but as long as it doesn't hurt me, I'll stand up for your right to worship."

Allah says:
Quran 9:28,
Yusuf Ali: "O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise."

And that is the reason why no Kaafir is allowed or has been allowed to enter Mecca since the time of Muhammad. When an American Muslim goes to Hajj and accepts that Pagans are not allowed in Mecca, S/He accepts that Pagans are filthy. Does that hurt you? Probably not. Does your American Muslim friend consider you and yours filthy? Why not ask some if Allah is wrong in saying that Pagans are filthy?

Akafir: ""But then in your world anyone who disagrees must be a bigot and a racist. ""

Seems to me that *you're* the one who wants to 'label 'everyone who disagrees with you.'

It's perfectly possible to have a reasonable opinion against this center: what many of us find far more of a problem are the *unreasonable* opinions against this center: the fearmongering and incivility and the calls to effectively drive them out of town. To claim no dialogue, perhaps, is even possible, or even to play into the political polarizations that this country is already experiencing.

I don't know where *that* position is expected to lead.

Nowhere good, that's the problem.

If this really *were* a reasoned disagreement in the main, it'd be one thing. I lean toward supporting this Cordoba Center in part because that's not how it's looking at all. I just hope the center for its part doesn't disappoint.

There are all kinds of interpretations of Islam, and they vary by region and denomination. A Sunni Muslim from Saudi Arabia would get culture shock around the Sunni Muslims in a more liberal country, such as Lebanon or Turkey - much less Indonesia. Just as Christianity has denominations, too. Is Catholicism the same in the U.S. as it is in Ireland, or even Italy?

Look, I know that in the eyes of Islam, Pagans are considered to be guilty of the crime of "shirk", or worshipping Gods other than Allah. In some places, that would give us an automatic death sentence. I know better than most that there are Islamic Radicals out there who want to attack America for whatever reason they claim to have. That's why we have law enforcement, a military, and this whole "Homeland Security" apparatus. Islamic radicals have even attacked in Saudi Arabia, so don't give me that "they hate America" crap. They hate everybody who doesn't subscribe to their narrow-minded little seventh-century ideals.

But, this is America. We have something called a Constitution, which is more than just the Second Amendment. It says that everyone has a right to practice their religion, regardless of what it is. We Pagans fight hard for our First Amendment rights. Regardless of my feelings about a religion, as an American, I feel that all Americans have the same rights as we Pagans do. The same goes for more odious religions, like Scientology. I may not like how or what you worship, but as long as it doesn't hurt me, I'll stand up for your right to worship.

So here we are 7 years, 600 billion dollars and 4000 American lives later ...after great sacrifice to bring freedom, democracy and a better way of life to 30 million Iraqi Muslims...
And Conservatives are just beginning to realize...THEY DON'T LIKE MUSLIMS.

It's like being married to a woman for 7 years and realizing, one day, that you are GAY

When will Conservatives ever learn.

"The question is not what Imam Rauf should say to counter anti-Muslim prejudice whipped up by Fox News distortions about plans to build an Islamic community center in lower Manhattan, many blocks away from the site of the World Trade Center destruction."

There is a cure for ignorance, and it is not writing filled with errors opinions at WaPo. Are you saying that Howard Dean, Reid of Nevada, Silver of New York are all being influenced by the prejudice whipped up by Fox News?

There truly is a cure for ignorance. Why don't you call these three democrats and ask them why they disagree with Imam Rauf. But then in your world anyone who disagrees must be a bigot and a racist.

Damn straight, Starhawk! We've seen this same hate directed at us Pagans before. I only hope that, when it happens again (and it will), Imam Rauf and the Muslims of Park51 stand with us Pagans.

Besides, Park51 is designed to be a LEED-certified Green Building. How cool is that?

(Honestly, I'd like to hear less talk about Muslims and Christians arguing about who deserves to be included in 'under their God') and a lot more about everyone actually embracing American religious freedom, not as conditional on who thinks who worships what God properly enough, but on the very basis that it's *freedom* that is at stake, and *freedom* that was targeted on 9/11, according to most narratives.

Even here on On Faith, I'm tired of hearing waffling from Muslims and Christians both about the absolute unalienable rights we all swear to as Americans not being contingent on anyone's God or who's acceptable to what version or why.

Unalienable. No matter how holy you think you are.

The Pagan community looks on this as, 'Great, here's religious intolerance that we'll catch the bad end of anyway, versus yet another bunch of monotheists who claim the right and duty to convert us.'

What a win-win for Pagans, eh?

But.

This is *America.*

Muslims' America, Christians' America, Catholics' America, Protestants' America, *Pagans' America.*

*My* America.

*Our* America.

I'm not here to choose between theocrats or scare tactics.

I'm here to be American.

Let it be about that. The rest actually does seem to tend to work out.

I suggest: Let it pass.

What's next is the important part.

The depth of opposition to the mosque has been described by a right-wing commentator as being a "half-mile wide and an inch deep". It is the bigots who are out in force keeping this non-issue alive and diverting attention from Christian cruelties around the world that include the killing of children for witchcraft. See "Children abused, killed as witches in Nigeria" http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/08/25/nigeria.child.witches

Amen and Blessed Be, Starhawk. Islamophobia is burning like a brush fire, and those caught up in the blaze don't want to see moderates or peaceful activists--too much reality will extinguish the flames. When a group begins to define itself "in opposition to" another, they begin to need that distorted view of "the other" in order maintain the identity they've constructed for themselves--an identity based on projection and, well, "refudiation".

That's pretty much the size of it, Starhawk. I think it's clear the kindof attitudes that are to be dealt with, and how much fear-mongering is coming from where,to exploit the grief of 9/11 families and the nation as a whole.

I think everyone's had their say by now: now it's time to start listening.

One thing I observe is that this 'controversy' really isn't about what it's ostensibly-about: as pointed out, this Cordoba project is about the best we could ask for in terms of peaceful relations between Muslim Americans and the rest of us, after all.

But 9/11 is about more than that: to much of America it is the very focus of the displaced resentments of that whole decade, and all that the failed policies and incompetence of that administration could blame '9/11' and 'Muslims' for.

There's a lot of frustration and general xenophobia out there. Obviously, there are politics involved, but I think a lot of the energy behind this is just *venting.*

". . . Equating Imam Rauf with terrorism is like conflating Martin Luther King with Timothy McVeigh, just because they both happen to be Christians . . ."

The world is crazy enough right now that folks will be conflating Martin Luther King with the proto - fascist Glenn Beck on the anniversary of Martin Luther King Jr.'s 'I Have A Dream' speech:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/08/26/2010-08-26_glenn_beck_fox_news_host_slammed_for_rally_on_martin_luther_king_jrs_dream_speec.html